Bonus: Send Less, Earn More: What Brevo's Data Says About Email Volume and Conversion

And of course, there's a regional element to that, but there's also just an individual preferences.

I might like SMS or the new like SMS, so I might engage more with SMS, push could be the same thing. Do personalized messaging. Don't just send out blast spam email all the time, send out messaging that's targeted to your audience to what they really want to hear. Companies that send less email actually have much higher conversion rates, much higher click through rates, and an offset, of course, the volume setters. Hello and welcome to the DDC podcast.

Today, my guest is Channing Fair, Chief Revenue Officer and CEO of the Americas at Brevo. Brevo is a customer engagement platform out of Paris with about 600,000 businesses on it. They just landed on the Inc. 5000 off of a 100% growth in the U.S.

Before this, Channing spent six years at HubSpot running sales strategy through the run from 200 million to 1.5 billion, and then ran sales at Semrush as well as Brandwatch back to growth.

“Welcome to the DDC podcast, Channing. How you doing?”

I'm doing well. Thanks, Sarah, for having me. You have quite an epic SaaS career, and I know that you advised Brevo for a year and a half before you joined. What made it an attractive opportunity for you to jump to? Definitely. So, I had the fortunate opportunity, as you said, to do advisory work. In most times, you joined a new business. You don't have that chance to get under the hood a little bit ahead of time.

So, one of the things that there's multiple reasons, one of them was, first of all, I got to chance to know the product. And I felt really good about the product, knowing, of course, the Martek space very well from a variety of my prior experiences at HubSpot in Semrush and Brandwatch and elsewhere. So, I felt like we have a good product. Number one. Number two, I got to know the culture and the team culture. And it was very collaborative to me. That's a very important part of a good company culture's collaboration.

But intense as well, which I really appreciate too. So, that mix of intensity and collaboration, I liked a lot. And then, number three was, frankly, the challenge. And this was the thing that really was enticing. Where a European headquartered business, and we're trying to grow globally.

A lot of the teams I've run have been always very international, but I've always done it

from the headquarters here in the U.S. And this challenge was kind of doing something a little bit different where the headquarters were over in Europe. And I've got to help build the business globally, inclusive of building it in the U.S. And I thought that was a fun, interesting opportunity slash challenge.

“And how I see coming off a 100% growth in the U.S. How has that transfer been going from Europe into the U.S.?”

Yeah, it's been good. It's, I will say, the U.S. market is a tough market. I mean, there's a lot of competitors. It's obviously a huge market, but also just highly competitive market. And the way people buy in the U.S. is a little different than the way people buy in Europe and even elsewhere in the world. I then do all of this, of course, when I joined. So, I'd say we're growing at a very good clip in the U.S. and globally we're growing at a good clip as well. But the U.S. is our fastest growing market right now.

One of the things that I think we realized very quickly as I was joining, and really as I was transitioning into joining, but, of course, being on the advisory board, I was able to have input on this, is we needed a different product mix. And the product mix for the U.S. and it really went beyond the U.S. but the product mix in the U.S. was too extreme. It was either a very low-end self-server or much more complex enterprise solution. We didn't have anything to set in the middle. And the middle to me was that sweet spot for us.

So, we launched our pro-offer that set between our enterprise and our standard product or self-server product. And the pro-offer is taking off, and that's been the thing that's really helped, I think, accelerate us for the U.S. market.

“I think that probably fits right in the D to C podcast market. Is that pro?”

Yes, I think you're spot on. What's the main difference? What does it enable that the self-server doesn't? Yeah, so with pro, you're typically going to get a little, there's more capabilities, there's higher volume that you can send. From a capability standpoint, there are some lightweight CDP components built into pro. So, if you have some data integration that you want to do, which typically in business that's a little bit complex, but not highly complex, you do have different data sets that you might want to integrate to help

do more personalized marketing. We have some of those as a default built into pro. We have elements of enterprise, there's like flavors of enterprise, like custom objects, for example. You can use one custom object in pro, and that becomes very helpful as you might want to have a little variety of use cases there, but you might want to do one little custom thing, that custom object allows you to do it. Reporting, there's enhanced reporting, and that's another

big selling point in the pro offer. It is the significant enhanced reporting package that comes with pro versus the self-server offer. There's another reason people typically will shift over to the pro product. So, every SaaS platform I chat with is obviously integrating AI deeply into their tool set. How do users interact with AI and what's AI actually doing in the

there's the really basic functionality, which is, "Help me do this," and we have our

tool that helps there so you can go into the RAI and ask questions that'll answer those for you. But that's more of just an agent on the side that's like a support agent teaching you what to do. I think more interestingly is actually an agent that does things for you. So, we've got various Brevo agents built into the product today, where you can go in and say, "Bill the campaign for me," and it'll automate that campaign building process. You can validate and then you can say, "Okay."

So, there's components throughout the Brevo experience where you can leverage AI to run things for you.

“And I think that's a really important part of how we use AI today is this kind of assistant”

that manages the portfolio, but still there's the human oversight to validate. Is it the right thing? And then the third layer to it is integration with conversational AI tools like CHAPT or Claw or so on, where I can go in via a connection to our MCP server and go directly into

Claw and say, "I want to run a campaign in Brevo." And here's what I want it to look like.

And then Claw will go and connect back into Brevo and run that campaign for you. And in fact, you can live, you can do all of your marketing through the Claw if you want. You don't actually have to ever log in to Brevo. It'll report back to you in Claw and give you all the outputs that you need. So, some people do that in full. I have a customer, I was talking to you the other day who they're just living in Claw the whole time. They have

their Brevo account, but it's just connecting into Brevo. But then other people will just do some things through Claw and live maybe more in Brevo. I'm finding that all the time where I'm just, it's just every day I'm unlocking like new things that I can do just from the Claw terminal. And it's surprising me all the time with how much you can do from there.

Super interesting time for that sort of thing. One of the main things that we talked about on the

pre-interview was the idea of the wallet. I used the wallet, I used my Apple wallet for lots of different things in life. I haven't really had it integrate too much with my e-commerce purchases.

“So, make the case for the wallet. Why is the best loyalty tool already on the phone?”

Yeah, so I was just seeing an updated demo actually of the wallet features that we just released. And I'm more and more impressed every time I look at our wallet capabilities and just what wallet can do for someone. It's so logical even, I think. So, the idea with wallet is you can put your loyalty cards into your Apple wallet or Google wallet or soon even your Samsung wallet. And if you're a retail company, let's say. And you put your loyalty card in there,

then you can as a consumer myself of that product maybe. I can go into my Apple phone. I can or my Google phone. I can see, here's my wallet. Here's my loyalty cards. Here's somebody points that I've earned. Here's where I can redeem those points. Here's ways for me to earn more points. And you can push promotional elements through the wallet. So, I could say to the consumer, we can, we can, as a retailer, I can push something saying, we have a holiday promotion now.

And so suddenly they're looking at it and now the card changes colors. It turns into a holiday card and there's a promotion that shows up within that that they can jump on and leverage. So, it's just such an easy way to capture the attention of a consumer. And wallet cards are extremely sticky. Once people install wallet cards, 95% of those cards are remain for 12 months thereafter. So, if you think about email unsubscribe rates and the way other people try to, you know,

capture information, it's just information and sharing of information that becomes a very sticky

“channel, the wallet channel that is. So, it's something that's, I think, relatively”

newer in the way marketers are leveraging it. But to me, it feels like a huge opportunity leveraging the wallet. And alongside wallet, then you can also do things like geofencing your experience. And again, if you're a retailer, that means if I'm walking past the retailer, I can push a notification. I can do something based on my location physically. And I have my points that have my card. It's all kind of in one spot. What does it look like for a brand that

doesn't have retail? Yeah. So, actually, it's something we've been kind of looking at. It's who else uses wallet. And so, retail is the most simple use case, because we all kind of have loyalty elements within retail. But loyalty can fit beyond that and wallet even. So, for example, concert, if I'm going to a concert, I could maybe buy my ticket through a wallet experience. And the ticket then lives in the wallet. And now that that tickets in the wallet, we can use that

ticket to create other promotional opportunities. And maybe it's by a souvenir for 10% discount. Maybe it's follow on to the concert. Use this ticket to do something else. Once again, we can leverage geofencing. We can do push notifications. So, that's another simple example that we can use it. But there's a lot of use cases that extend well beyond the retail space where I think this wallet experience can become very unique. Give me an example of a brand

doing this really well. Yes. So, Solomon, Solomon's a great brand. So, Solomon, outdoor brand, skis and other outdoor equipment. So, they use the Breville wallet tool. And within that, they have

and create incentives through Solomon. So, when you go to either Solomon's store or even online,

“yeah, you leverage it. So, Solomon, I think they're one of our better users. There's another”

I can't say the name but another, another international brand actually who is a retailer that uses it. And what they do is very interesting, they create unique personalized offers because there's so much data that they can capture through the wallet that they know, not just where the person is, but other preferences that that individual consumer has. So, they're not doing generic offers. They're doing actually highly personalized offers. So, you and I might receive a different discount

offer, a different incentive offer because of our different wallet usage. The geo-fencing is an interesting one too. I haven't heard, I used to work for a company mobile DSP and we used to

geo-fence different offers and and trying to reach people in kind of different moments.

Is the geo-fencing, I guess, is this combination between Breville and the wallet, like the wallet itself doesn't have push capabilities, right? The wallet doesn't have the push capabilities but you can do push obviously on your mobile phone. So, you can do push a long side of the wallet but it's not pushing into the wallet exactly. How do you compare push

“to something like SMS? Yeah, so it's just another channel. There's a variety of channels and I think”

one of the more important things we see are best customers using is using and leveraging those channels in a cohesive way. So, what I love about push is once again, I'll go back to the geo-fencing. We can geo-fence an experience. So, if someone's walking past this concert or somewhere in the concert or walking you know, in a mall and a shopping mall or whatever, we can push something to them. At the same time, they might not jump on that push notification because it could be, hey,

take 10% off and go buy our widgets today. They might not jump on that but we could then send an SMS the next day saying we knew you were here or you can say whatever you want in terms of sharing information but you can send a similar offer when they're not in that geo-fence location. So, the geo-fence to me feels very relevant for push and what I love about push is that real-time notification and we're going to do that when there's urgency but also SMS isn't that urgency

SMS is just another channel for communication. What I find and what's most interesting is and we did a study with our customers on this is some people love email, some people love SMS, some people love WhatsApp, not everyone buys and consumes information the same way. And of course, there's a regional element to that. What's app is used much more in Europe or Latin America, yes, SMS email on maybe more in the US but there's also just an individual preferences.

I might like SMS more than you like SMS, so I might engage more with SMS, push could be the same thing, some people prefer it and some people don't. What's app's an interesting one? I'm using it more and more in my personal life. It has a much bigger footprint in Europe you're saying but is it growing in the US and Canada as well? Yeah, so it's I'm surprised that it's not growing so much in North America actually. It's growing but Europe is growing much faster and specifically

“from marketing reasons. So I think what I look at is how our marketers are using it. I'm not”

looking at pure WhatsApp adoption. That could be growing but from a marketing standpoint it's growing very rapidly in Europe. And what we're seeing is there's a lot more functionality coming out with WhatsApp as well for how you can kind of market and track and sell things even through WhatsApp. So it's beginning to push well beyond what you can do with SMS today in terms of the capabilities and even the tracking of of engagement through WhatsApp. So we're seeing 170% growth last

I looked kind of year-to-date growth on WhatsApp in Europe right now. Yeah, that exceeds what we're seeing in the US from a growth standpoint for WhatsApp. One of the cool differentiators with brevo that as I understand it is you guys build on sends instead of pure list size. Why make that decision? What does that enable for in terms of efficiency for e-commerce brands on brevo? Yeah, it's one of the things people love about us. We think of it as, you know, we'll charge whatever you consume.

We call them consumables. So if you're sending a lot of emails and sending a lot of SMS, the ideas you're getting value from that. So we're trying to align our billing to the value creation that we have. And if you're using a lot of consumables and sending a lot of email, then in theory you're getting a lot of value from that. Well, align our billing. If you just have a big contact database, that doesn't mean we should bill you a lot for that big

contact database because you might not be engaging that deeply with that contact database or you might have it for other reasons, but you're not, you know, driving a lot of maybe revenue through that contact database. So we don't think it's fair to charge based on the size of your contact

database. We prefer to really lean into charging based on how much of the product you are ultimately

using. One of the things we have an email podcast on the D to C network here is when we talk a lot about efficiency and just the growing gates that Gmail, for instance, puts on the quality of your sense. So I can imagine by charging people on the emails they actually send versus their

the people that are really moving the needle and the addresses that are actually really worth

mailing versus always feeling like, oh, I'm paying for this whole list. So I've got to mail the

whole list. Do you find that your approach leads to a better focus on efficiency? Yeah, it's actually something we advocate for, which is a little ironic because it's against our, in a sense, against our, not to our benefit, but we advocate for do personalized tailored messaging. And that means don't just send out blast spam email all the time, send out messaging that's targeted to your audience to what they really want to hear. And we did a study on this and we found that companies

that sent less email actually have much higher conversion rates, much higher click through rates, and it offset, of course, the volume senders. The volume senders had much lower conversion rates and click through and open rates, and they weren't really seeing the ultimate benefit that the slightly more personalized more targeted email senders were, we're seeing. So it really aligns to, and the nice thing is it aligns to the interest of the customer. And our customers want to,

they don't want to just blast emails. They want to ultimately get a return on that investment. They

want to see revenue come from that communication module. And therefore we're recommending avenues and channels to do that, that aligns well for them. And it's also financially viable. You really want to meet customers where they're at. And one of the things that we talk about on the email podcast quite a bit is, uh, flows versus campaigns. And how flows are going to be triggered by actions wherever possible. So it flows are sort of inherently going to be a

little bit more specific. Obviously, you can, you can have a specificity in the way you segment your campaigns as well. How do you think about the the economy between flows and campaigns when

“when brands are sending? When I look at the flows, that's the thing that I think is the most valuable,”

because it's, it's a personalized experience that's happening and can capture that data point. So we know that when someone does one thing, they tend to go here or someone does something else, they tend to go there. And this leads us down the path of understanding how to communicate with these consumers. So this is, as I was saying before, at the kind of the Omni channel, options you might have for communication, push SMS, WhatsApp, email. Everyone has their slight

different preferences. And we can determine those preferences through these flows that they're taking ultimately. And as we learn about those preferences, we can create a much more personalized experience in the personalization. Isn't just content? We often think of personalization is trying to create content that's relevant. It's, it's the engagement channel. And I think the flow dictates that engagement channel, because we can see fairly consistent approaches for people. So I think the

flow is so important, because we do want to find the channel that people like to engage with most frequently. And then lean into those, those channels. So campaigns are useful. As a starting point, campaigns are great when you have a specific thing. You're trying to advertise if you get into the holiday season or something like that. Of course, we want to run certain broad-based campaigns.

“But I think over time, you can learn the flow and therefore learn how to engage directly”

with each individual and have that personalized experience. Which is going to create more efficiency like you say, higher click-through rates. And ultimately, better metrics from the ISPs themselves. Is that something you see becoming a bigger concern for brands who maybe, you know, who haven't focused on this level of specificity and maybe have burned out lists since in some ways? Yeah, it is. And I think it's a big challenge, especially in the U.S. even, because, you know,

the laws in the U.S. allow for you to capture lists in a variety of ways. We can buy lists and send to those lists. But people are getting much more savvy with their email and how they're managing their own email. And, you know, look at, like, the options within email and other email providers. Yeah, it's very easy to click the spam button or, you know, reject emails. And as we, as we as consumers do that, it obviously has that negative impact to the the center.

So our customers are very conscientious of this. We advocate for them as well. We have a whole team of people that are focused on email deliverability. And we help them think about how best to optimize

their email deliverability. And, again, it is a really critical element to what they're doing.

emails still the core method of communication we find. Well, everyone's building other on the channel flows. emails that a core component of that nearly all cases. Now, so they have to build around that. But it's that email deliverability is super critical for them. And it varies by email provider, of course, how they're handling and what they're doing. Now, varies from Gmail to

“Yahoo to Hotmail and so on. What happens when a customer on Brevo outgrows the tier that they bought?”

And how do you spot this early and what do you do? There's two things that kind of occur. One thing is you might be at the pro level. Let's call it. And you've bought a certain amount of email volume, let's say. And, and you have a monthly volume. And, let's greatly simple good example. You get into Black Friday season. And now you've decided, along at a send for the next couple weeks, I want to spike my email volume because I've got a big database and I know people are

eager to hear from me right now. So, I'm going to spike my volume. You're allowed to do that. We

you know, price point. But you can do those overages on the one-off. And so people sometimes just do that. They'll hit their overage threshold. You know, we'll charge them all one-time charge for that slide over, so they might have. And that's okay. So, that's a very simple use case. Another one is they get to a point where they're saying, you know, I was planning on sending

two million emails a month now. I really want to send more like four million emails a month.

Great. No problem. We can just move you up a tier. And that's very easy to do. So, we move you up a tier. The other scenario is where you're on the pro product. You say, I really want to get into enterprise. I need more CDP functionality. I need to have my own fully dedicated CSM. I want to look at using wallet and loyalty company on so on. They want to do all this other stuff with us. And great. We are happy to explore that. And we can move you up into that enterprise tier.

And you get all these other capabilities along with it. So, some of these things are self-serve.

“Like the overage component is purely self-serve. But then if you want to move up tiers,”

you know, that's where we can help facilitate that very easily. Nice. On to the concept of metrics and dashboards. Let's imagine a $20 million D2C brand listening to this. What should be on the dashboard and what's something that maybe these brands have on the dashboard that maybe shouldn't be a focus? I mean, I think the basics, I will just hit the basics first, is we want to monitor our open rates, monitor our click through rates. I think one of the things that I was talking to

a brand about the other day was just volume. And of course, we want to know how many volume I'm much more sending. But it's not as critical I think anymore. It used to be something people were kind of just looking to maximize volume. And yeah, I guess I wouldn't say you don't want it on your dashboard, but I wouldn't put it pretty far down on the dashboard. Like, I don't think volume is the thing we need to be solving for is like the most important metric.

It's an important thing to keep an eye on. But I really care a lot more about my open rates of my quick through rates, my balance rates. I mean, those are things to me that feel like the

critical ones. And then ultimately I'm looking for a revenue output from my project, so I'm looking

for an ROI. So I want to keep that on the dashboard as well. And that sometimes does get overlooked. But sometimes people just think your volume will lead me down the path of that ROI and it's not the case. My understanding, you're a part, a big part of architecting some of the crazy growth that HubSpot experienced on the sales side. I'm curious, what's something that you take from

“that HubSpot experience that you're applying or to what Brevo is doing?”

So one of the things that I'm always intrigued by and I talk a lot about is the differences and similarities between B2B and B2C marketing. And HubSpot was very B2B oriented at a little bit of B2C in there, but really B2B oriented. And then of course Brevo were much more B2C oriented with a little bit of B2B component. So we do have a little bit of overlap between the two. So my thinking on a lot of this and it does also one of the reasons I was excited to join Brevo

because B2C and B2B are actually very different in many ways. I think they're getting closer and closer together. I think the B2B world needs to learn a lot from the B2C world. B2C we have much more high volume. So when we're high volume it's a lot easier to do AB testing and a lot easier to see trends very quickly. In the B2B space you have these lower volume engagements and it's just a lot harder to see the output because of that lower volume. So the B2C world is moving

much faster, much more experimentation oriented and I think again can give a lot of insight for example loyalty. So we think of loyalty typically as I want to have a loyalty loyal customer who has a loyalty card with a loyalty number and so on. It's like very kind of traditional loyalty. I think loyalty is applicable across all types of marketing and everyone should be incentivized to be a loyal customer and what that loyal customer then should do

isn't necessarily just come back and buy more and yeah we of course want that. But we want the loyal customers to become advocates. We want them to become kind of micro influencers. And yes that applies in B2C but also needs to apply in the B2B space and a micro influencer can help me generate much more lead flow. So I think there's this learning that I'm switching it around a little bit but learning that I'm having in Brevo that I would apply to HubSpot that you know

if I were to kind of go back to HubSpot say do it this way. From a Brevo from a HubSpot learning

standpoint it's a little more fundamental and I was at HubSpot when we were 200 million in

revenues when I joined I left we were 1.5 billion and I joined Brevo 200 million in revenue and we're growing at a nice clip. And so understanding how to scale a business is fairly complex

“actually it's kind of when do you need to make what decisions how do you think about growth”

612 24 months in advance how do you kind of prepare for that next stage and that next stage comes pretty quickly when you're growing quickly. So that's one of the biggest takeaways I have is how to just prepare for scale and then actually execute on scaling of business. You mentioned loyalty and we're sort of readying a big survey that we've done with a consumer side and a brand facing survey called Beyond the Discount and it's just sort of trying to plumb the issue right now

the brands are facing when they become dependent on broadcast discounts for their growth and how

then loyalty is one of the main answers to that in a way where you can kind of you can reward

behaviors that you actually want to reward versus rewarding everyone who might have bought anyway. How does Breville think about loyalty in the consumer journey? Yeah so loyalty to me goes well beyond very similar to what you just said goes well beyond just the simplicity of broad-based discounts and well beyond just the idea of earn enough points to get yourself a free

“widget. Those are the older school loyalty offerings or strategies I suppose but I think we're evolving”

a lot as we all collectively think about loyalty and loyalty to me and this is one of the things that we're leaning into heavily we acquired a company two years ago that actually does this very very nicely and we've integrated into our loyalty tools is advocacy and the idea of building a

customer that yes wants to go back and repurchase is extremely important but even more important is

that customer that wants to become an advocate because customer acquisition has become so difficult. There's so much noise out there while receiving more and more emails we're getting more and more tax messages it's just very hard to acquire customers and it's getting much more expensive to acquire customers. On top of that customers the way we all purchase things either buying a software product or buying a widget is we tend to go to places that we trust and I did survey actually

on this not too long ago and 65% of people who responded said the first thing they go to is in LL and Jackie BT you know Claude they'll go and ask it questions because they trust that they trust the answers are accurate 20% then go to their friend and ask their friend so the large majority are asking someone who they trust either a friend or an AI tool for an answer and therefore we as businesses need to find ways to distribute our brand through means that people trust and again

“I think AI tools as well as friendships are the way to do that so thus advocacy and loyalty are”

so critical because you want these customers that are big advocates for you. What are the key steps

that you take to turning someone into an effort from a customer into an actual advocate because it's the they become the gift that keeps on giving if they actually share it with their friend so what are some of the steps are some of the key methods of turning customers into advocates. Yeah so this is where loyalty is fine because we can say as a loyal customer you're earning some points and you can earn those points as maybe you purchase more things but you can also

earn points by doing other things right a LinkedIn post right a post on Facebook right some sort of social media thing about the product great you can earn a couple of points maybe in doing that maybe generate more likes on that post you can earn a little bit more points so you can actually create the incentive for for what you want and allow them to do that at scale and so we can incentivize this idea of advocacy in a very kind of directive way and allow people still to earn the benefits

that they want through a kind of a point system but not just by purchasing another item it's by going out and doing these other promotional things. I've started doing it with just any sort of product or service that I really like or benefiting from I go right to Google and I make sure I write it a review just because I know how in a special for local businesses I know how impactful that could be so again I've heard also once if they do a favor for you it's also just as ingratiating or

just as connecting or even more so than if the brand does a favor for you that's interesting psychological feature yeah yeah it's so true I went out to a restaurant I was on vacation this summer I went to a restaurant and the restaurant had great reviews on Google and I went there and the food was like okay it was fine nothing that great but the the owner came over he spent a bunch of time with us was like showing pictures of his grandkids and really getting to know us at a personal

level and then at the end he said you know if you don't mind could you leave a review for the time era of course I left a review because I liked the guy the food wasn't great but I liked the guy and he created a great experience and you could tell this was his playbook and it was filling that restaurant constantly for him he didn't need to have the best food he just needs to create that experience and then make that ask. So okay so say a brand comes to Breville

and they've been on another platform where they were sort of like I say they were incentivized by you know they're paying for their full size so there may be sending a lot more and maybe they're they're having some issues with their their ISP they want to they want to be more efficient they

“want to send less email where do they start yeah so I think it's really starting on”

understanding what's working within your email so let's look at the conversion rates let's look at the open rates where are you getting the best hits let's look at what you can do for personalization I mean that's the other thing are you actually creating a personalized experience or not so what data are you using to create that personalized experience and a lot of times people might say oh yeah we're doing personalized emails group A gets this and group B gets that and that's not really

personalized like let's leverage all the data set that we have so if we have for example someone's someone's using wallet and we can see how they're using wallet we can leverage that to create a

as we learn things through either what they're doing on our website or what they're doing in our

“stores or elsewhere we can capture all that and then create that personal experience and that”

personalized experience is what will improve the conversion rates so we can again start by just looking at what campaigns are working but let's get into again personalizing using data but then also personalizing using the flows as we were talking before how are they liking to engage with us time

of day method of engagement and leveraging that data is so critical to improve conversion rates

and in doing that we can narrow down the volumes and what we send what are some of the reasons that people are coming to Brevo from some of the incumbents in the industry that they're looking for that Brevo's providing yeah so we're seeing a pretty clear grouping come to us from a couple competitors and I'll use MailChimp as one example so we got a lot of customers coming over from MailChimp and what they like about us is ease of implementation ease of use they want to get

up and running quick and easy they don't want to have to learn a whole new product that's highly complex that's the first thing we hear from people is we love how simple it is to get going on the other thing that is going to be we want AI capabilities within Brevo we want to have oversight but we want to have tools that will do things for me but then I still want to be the human in the

“loop to validate is this okay that's what they appreciate that we have that kind of that layer of”

capability in there and then the other thing that we hear is people want to have the opportunity to

grow into something so they either want to say I want to grow into sending SMS I want to grow into loyalty I want to grow into push but I'm not ready to do it today but I want to have that option I don't want to have to switch systems or build a new integration or something like that so those are three reasons that we're seeing right now we're seeing a lot of conversion and that's sorry there's a fourth there's a fourth to be fair the fourth one is our pricing structure people really like it

we hear a lot of positive feedback on this idea of consumption based pricing and that's another reason people for example from Kleeville or shifting over we see often that consumption based pricing model with Mailchimp I think we discussed a little bit there's sort of they've been around for such a long time and I think they're they're making a big push now to maybe get into the e-commerce space where they haven't focuses but they probably haven't put as much product innovation I'm curious where you

most interested in the product innovations that Brevo is making through throughout this year and in the coming years I can't not be excited by AI I mean all this stuff we're doing around AI I'm talking about it like every other day it seems like obviously what we have but then what we're coming out with on the AI front the ability to do things automatically with that human in the loop or kind of oversight I just love what we're doing there so that one I feel like it's moving very

very quickly e-commerce capabilities were really moving fast on the e-commerce side so it's just

basic stuff but it's going well beyond that and basically in the sense I'll be back in stock

but there's a lot of ways of looking at back and stock functionality alerting off of that and so on so I love what we're doing the e-commerce side loyalty super excited about loyalty and wallet together I mean those things sit next to each other they're not fully combined but both of those areas then you feel like huge growth opportunities and and just as a marketer it's like a fun new channel it's something different it's a whole new way of engaging with with customers

that we're seeing a lot of excitement around and love what I'm doing we're doing there I'm doing a whole presentation on this topic with Google and actually we have to actually and they're really psyched to partner with us on this as well it's just a new dimension of owning your audience I think that the beauty of retention is you own the audience and then just finding these other ways that you can engage your own audience whether it's loyalty or you know geo fencing or wallet or

all these things just provide these different angles that allow you and every time you are able to engage them in one of these new ways you're able to build that into their profile for personalization so you know okay well this person really responds to whatsapp or this person responds to push and it just kind of builds that profile of becoming more efficient as a as a sender exactly well said all right well if you are in our audience and looking to understand more about brevo you got

“to go to brevo.com/contact to book a demo if you want to follow you on your journey to a billion I”

guess or we're going from we're going from hundreds of millions to two billions in the next several years where do they recommend they do that? This way is LinkedIn I tend to publish on LinkedIn a couple times a week if I can write you different topics but I think that's the easiest spot to follow me fortunately there's not too many chanting for errors out there so I think you just search chanting for error on LinkedIn you hopefully can come across me pretty easily. Not to be confused with

chanting Tatum the heart's wrong. Correct you got his name from me is my belief. I believe that to be true as well well thank you for coming on the DTC podcast stay well we'll we'll see on the slopes. Perfect sounds good Eric thanks a lot thanks so much for listening to today's episode if you're not a subscriber to our newsletter you can do that right now at direct to consumer all one word dot code. I'm Eric Dick and this has been the DTC podcast we'll see you next time