A Toolkit for a Noisy Mind: How John Green Manages Anxiety, Depression, and Intrusive Thoughts

This is the 10% happier podcast, I'm Dan Harris.

[MUSIC] Hello, my fellow suffering beings, how we doing. Today we've got a wide-ranging, super-interesting, and in its own way, very practical conversation with the writer and YouTuber John Green, who has a lot of experience way too much experience,

“I think he would say, in managing anxiety, depression and intrusive thoughts.”

We're going to do a deep dive into his tool kit for managing the aforementioned, which includes a lot of effective strategies.

We're also going to talk about his view of God, how he maintains hope and a chaotic and unfair world,

and why he wrote a whole book recently about the thing that terrifies him. Many of you know John Green, but for those of you who don't, he's the author of many, many best-selling books, including looking for Alaska, the fault in our stars, and turtles all the way down. He's not only a writer, he does a ton of stuff on YouTube with his brother Hank, John has created something called Vlog Brothers, and also an educational channel called Crash Course.

So John's coming up before we dive in though, heads up, we're in the middle of a five-day meditation challenge, over on my new meditation app, 10% with Dan Harris, and it's not too late to join. The challenge is called "Even You Can Meditate." Every day it features a new meditation from the great seven-ay Salassey, and then twice during the course of the five days, we do live video sessions where you can ask questions

of me and said. The first video session already happened, but you're not too late to join the second one.

And don't worry if you sign up after the fact this challenge will be available on demand in perpetuity. Again, it's available exclusively over on the 10% with Dan Harris app, head on over to Dan Harris.com to join us. I should mention that this challenge is actually designed in part to celebrate a new audio book or audible original that seven-eye co-wrote and co-recorded.

“That book is also called "Even You Can Meditate." And if you want to check it out, you should go to audible.com.”

One last thing to say on the promotional tip, I am doing a live event in New York City. I would love to see you there. It's at the 92nd Street Y on May 17th. You can meditate with me in person. I'll be guiding a meditation and then taking your questions and talking to all about how to fit this practice into your life and especially focusing on how it could be helpful at a time when so many of us feel so anxious and angry. I'll put a link in the show notes seriously. I would love to see you there.

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I'm going to try it again with you, and I asked this question in the opposite of a

perfunctory casual way. I'm just curious how are you? You've been incredibly candid about ups and downs, psychologically, so I'm just like today. How are you doing? Today, I'm doing really well, which is certainly not a guarantee. I wouldn't have told you that earlier in the week, because there are ups and downs. I've lived with OCD for most of my life. I've had periods of major depression. Right now, all of that feels a little distant. It feels very well under control.

It feels like I'm able to live the life I want to live, but I also know that as the old librarian proverb goes, no condition is permanent. Hmm. The Buddha could have said that. It's

interesting to know it's an insight or I've done in Liberia as well. I noticed that you said a

couple of days ago you might have felt differently, so this is really subject to change. Yeah, I just think a few days ago I was having a lot more stress in my personal and professional life and so things were a little more hectic and a little more challenging. But the blessing of building a set of tools in your life that you can use to help with mental health problems. And I've had now 25 years of getting to work on this stuff is that the periods of challenge

don't go away, but for me, the intensity of them can shrink and also the length of them can shrink. And I wish that I'd known that when I was younger because I feel like when I was in my 20s

it always felt to me so permanent, depression felt utterly permanent. It felt as permanent as

the sun. And in my periods of depression, it would feel like there was no escape from it and there was no future. I mean, I can't say this universally, but now I think with the benefit of like I said the tool kit and also I think just maturation, I understand that these things can be really intense and really challenging, but I can also have a rich full life at the same time and knowing that

“like knowing that it's possible to live with mental illness and also have a good life is really”

important for me. I think it's important just for everybody to know whether they have a diagnosis like major depression or OCD or they're just the worried well that a good life can include inevitably will include ups and downs. Yeah, yeah, no big ones. I'll definitely want to get into your toolkit in a pretty big way, but before we go there, I'd be curious to hear a little bit more about your situation. You mentioned depression, you mentioned OCD, are they separate is one the product

of another, how does it work as far as you can tell? I'm definitely not an expert. I don't want to pretend to be an expert. Don't come to me for expert advice on anything, let alone mental health, but my own experience has been and I think this is backed up by research that OCD is pretty highly correlated with major depression and anxiety disorders and so people of OCD often also have con-committant depression or anxiety problems. For a long time OCD was classified as an anxiety

disorder and now it's classified a little differently. I don't know how much to depend on those

“classifications. I think my personal experience has been that not being able to close the loop on a”

thought spiral is extremely anxiety-provoking. If, for example, I have a passing thought that there might be a raid on problem in my house and I can't get rid of that thought and I can't reassure myself and I can't close the loop on that thought by finding certainty that there isn't a raid on problem in my house even by installing a raid on detector or calling a national raid on Federation or whatever and then it comes to a point where I'm using these compulsive behaviors making

phone calls, checking, checking, checking, you know, reinstalling, different raid on detectors, etc. That's a response to the overwhelming anxiety and the anxiety is born of the fact that I don't want my family to die. I don't want my family to die of raid on poisoning or whatever else it is. OCD tends to strike what we love the most and what we care about the most it tends to strike us in the places that are the most relevant to us and for me that's the health and well-being of

“my family a lot of times or the health and well-being of myself and that's what I have to manage,”

I guess. Like I said, great benefit of having that toolkit is that it's easier to manage but that's been incredibly hard over the years. I'm sorry, that really sucks. I have some people

some familiarity with it but just for those who don't you talked about these thought loops,

“these thought spirals. I can say and I think this is quite common that I get into those occasionally”

like for me it's always very self-centered. Am I losing my hair and I just can't fucking stop thinking

about it or I looked fat, I think in some recent picture and I'm just going down the rabbit hole on I literally lose sleep about it or we have a dip in our podcast numbers and I start thinking I'm going to have to sell the house or whatever it is. My understanding and you'll tell me if I'm wrong about this is that OCD is that normal thing but just exponentially worse. Yeah, just where it completely takes over your ability to be conscious in the world so that I can't

read a menu let alone a book. There's this great end of St. Vincent Malay poem I quote sometimes. I think she's talking about depression but it works for OCD too. She says night falls fast, today is in the past blown from the dark hill, hither to my door, three flakes, then four arrive, then many more and it's like that for me it's like there's like three snowflakes of thoughts and then a fourth one and then it's an absolute white blinding blizzard where I just can't

think about anything else. I can't distract myself from the thought there's a reason for me that the O comes first in OCD that the obsessive thoughts come first and then the compulsive behaviors are really born of a desire to control that fear in some way trying to find some way to handle

the obsessive fear some way to reassure yourself some way to calm down and the problem is that over time

those strategies that you develop those compulsive behaviors you develop to try to deal with these obsessive thoughts they become quite isolating times quite paralyzing and overwhelming on their own as well. I could imagine that both the obsession and the compulsiveity would be isolating because they're driving you deeper into the tunnel of yourself. Yeah, no everyone else lives on planet Earth and I live on planet. My family's about to die from rate on poisoning. Right. It's amazing to me

how much you have gotten done and continue to get done with these incredible books you've produced in this YouTube juggernaut never mind building and sustaining a family. I just find that very impressive. I don't know if this is a question but I want to say I find a very impressive how much you've been able to get done. This is a more ordinary story than people think it is. I think a lot of us who live with serious mental illness also have rich and fulfilling lives

and there are times when chronic illness really controls what you're able to do and that's very frustrating. I get really really frustrated when I'm less productive than I want to be or when I feel like being unwell is hampering my ability to be in the world but there's a lot of ways to be in the world and I think narrow constructions of productivity writing x number of books or making why number of videos really can I think sometimes distract us from what's really productive. There's a

great line in one of my brother's books where he writes that you will always be unhappy until you

“realize that one of the things you need to produce is your own joy and that's something that I'm”

maybe haven't focused on enough in terms of my thinking about production. So I don't want to just think about oh I produce videos and books. I want to think about how I also produce memories and experiences and joy and richness and connection with other people. A lot of people will be familiar with your brother Hank, your best friend, partner and crime. Do you think he was saying that we need to take care of ourselves before we can be productive? In other words, if we understand productivity,

even from a reductive standpoint of getting shit done in the world, actually joy makes sense even within that POV because you're just really not going to be good at what you're doing without the joy. Yeah and also alongside the other stuff that there needs to be a measure of joy within the work

“itself I think. You know I'm really lucky that a lot of the work I do not just working on books”

but also working on the crash course with a team of people is also joyful work. It's work that deepens my connections with other people that feels fulfilling. I find a lot of consolation and encouragement in a sense of purpose and when I don't feel a strong sense of purpose it's pretty hard for me to even get out of bed in the morning but when I do it's a lot easier. A lot of things that

I know why I'm doing this, I know I'm on book tour, I know I'm getting out of bed in the

morning, I know I'm making podcasts and videos and stuff and when I have that clear sense of purpose it's a lot easier for me. Well it feels like now we've kind of stepped into the toolkit and again with the caveat that you're not a mental health professional you're we're just talking about what you personally do to keep your shit together to the best of your ability and it sounds like you just listed two things that are related. Maybe three things, creative work, a sense of purpose

and then doing it with a team you enjoy working with. Yeah my great friend the late Paul Farmer who co-founded partners and health said almost everything that you do in your life that's valuable

will be done in partnership and I found that to be true even writing a book which feels like a very

lonely ivory tower kind of work is in fact deeply collaborative, deeply collaborative with my editor with my publicist, with the marketing team, with the people who lay out the book and decide

“the font and everything and the cover and all that collaborative work is really, really important”

and it doesn't exist separate from the writing process for me but as part of it and then making YouTube videos is inherently collaborative as well because it requires a team of people. I mean I still make vlog where there's videos alone in my basement by myself every Tuesday but even that's a collaboration because it's a collaboration with the audience, a collaboration with my brother. I do find a lot of encouragement and collaboration and in creative work. I used to think that

the only purpose of creative work was to reach an audience and to you know that it had to be made as a gift for the audience and that that was the point of it. These days I find myself thinking that in fact there's a lot that I get from it and that's okay in fact that's good. I would write novels even if they were for an audience of zero because I find a lot of fulfillment in it. I really enjoy it and I really learn from it. I learn about myself. I learn about other people. For me

writing fiction is a mirror in the sense that of course it's coming for me and I'm the one writing it and so it's revealing to me of my own the deeper rooms of myself but it's also a window. It's a window into what other people's lives might be like a window into trying to imagine that other people have just as complex and multitudeness and experiences I do. I absolutely believe that creative work can be an antidote to all the manner of despair.

And yet I'm curious to ask somebody who is himself in the middle of finishing up a book. I find that it also produces despair. Yeah, that's fair enough. It's really hard. It is hard especially when you're trying to finish something for me the initial drafting the initial writing of a story or a book is full of discovery and intoxicating intrigue and

there's real thrill in it and then even in the first set of revisions or so you're still discovering

so much about the story and you're still finding connections to other worlds like when I was

“writing my most recent book everything is tuberculosis. I remember in revision I was really”

trying to balance the story of this young boy trying to survive multi-drug resistant tuberculosis with the history of this disease that's killed so many billions of people and I was still really enjoying that and then by the third draft or so it was just drudgery. It was really trying to get it right not for myself or my personal fulfillment but for the reader which is of course extremely important but it is really frustrating and there are times when you're doing creative

work when it's super frustrating because you can't figure out a way into it you can't figure out what you're trying to do and that's really really hard but hard is not the opposite of fun and I try to remind myself of that hard is not the opposite of fulfilling hard is just the opposite of easy and there are lots of things that are hard that are also worthy. I want to signal to the

“listener that I have not lost the thread we will come back to John's toolkit because I think that”

will be of high interest for this audience but you didn't mention your recent book everything is tuberculosis and I'm going to read a little bit from one passage that my ace producer on this episode Eleanor identified. So this is a couple paragraphs brace yourself. I should acknowledge I guess that one reason I'm interested in TB is that I have obsessive compulsive disorder and my particular obsessive worries tend to circle around microbes and illness before the germ theory of

disease we did not know that around half the cells in my body do not in fact belong to my body they are bacteria and other microscopic organisms colonizing me and to one degree or another these micro-organisms can also control the body shaping the body's contours by making it gain or lose weight

may have a relationship with thought itself through the gut brain information access

“meaning that at least some of my thoughts may belong not to me but to the microorganisms in my”

digestive tract research indicates that certain gut microbiomes are associated with major depression and anxiety disorders. In fact it's possible that my particular microbiome is at least partly responsible for my OCD meaning that the microbes are the reason I'm so deeply afraid of microbes. It's a fascinating reading and it just makes me wonder like why would you want to dedicate yourself to a book about the thing that terrifies you? Well I'm interested in it for lack of a better term

there's a great Virginia wolf line where she writes about how given the extent to which illness has shaped our lives and has shaped our communities you would think that great epics would be written about it alongside love and war and the other great topics of epic literature and yet

relatively rarely do we write and read about illness. I've always I guess been of that Virginia wolf

persuasion that we should write and read about it more and think about it more. Now I sometimes think about it unhealthfully but I want to understand it. I want to understand it because I want to understand myself but I also want to understand it because I want to understand my community and my social order like what does it mean to live in a world where a million people die every year of a disease we've known how to cure since the 1950s. What does that say about us? What does that say

about the world we share in the world we might share instead? But I also want to write about it because it does just fascinate me. Illness fascinates me the temporaryness of us and everything we love fascinate me and I haven't fully reconciled myself to it. What does it say about us that hundreds of thousands of people are dying all the time from this disease that we know how to cure and at the same time you know our government the United States government both of us are citizens of the United States

our government has pulled back from funding global health in ways that appear to be directly

“leading to fatalities. Don't think you need to say appear to be I think it is and we saw hundreds of”

thousands of people get their treatment interrupted and we know that when your treatment for tuberculosis is interrupted so it takes about four months of daily antibiotics usually to cure TB and if we don't get those medicines to someone every day and there's a period where they don't take any medicine it's quite likely that they'll develop drug resistance and that's a real real challenge especially in the case of extensive drug resistance that can make TB much harder

to cure in some cases in some communities make it impossible. And so we're losing 4,000 people a day to tuberculosis but I think that as a result of the pullback you know in the next few years

we'll see more people dying of TB rather than less and that'll really be the first time since

the 18th century that the number of people dying of tuberculosis goes up instead of down and that really is an indictment of the way we distribute resources not just in the United States to be clear but also in other wealthy countries ultimately TB exists because we allow it to

“exist and that's what I want to write about. There's all kinds of things in life that are just”

unfair but it's not fair that I have both CD it's not fair that my brother had cancer a couple years ago it's not fair that kids die of cancer all kinds of things in life are unfair but when we have the tools to do something about injustice and we don't use those tools that makes me especially angry and frustrated because it's not just that it's unfair because we don't know what to do it's unfair and we do know what to do we're just choosing not to do it. Yeah I think in other

where you can describe aside from it being unfair and cruel is stupid it's not like we don't share the planet with the other people with this communicable disease. Exactly yeah I mean it is really stupid to allow tuberculosis to still be a thing you know it gives tuberculosis a lot of opportunities to develop further drug resistance and eventually it could develop resistance dollar tools and we could go back to a world like the one we lived in 90 years ago where my great uncle

Stokes Goodrich died of tuberculosis in a sanatorium in North Carolina that is not unthinkable. It's stupid it's callous I guess what's most interesting and distressing to me is that it reveals this deep truth about humans which is that we know in our guts that all human lives are equally valuable and equally multitudeness and equally complex and rich and yet we don't build systems that reflect that reality some of that is because of the nature of structural impoverishment going

speak the same language or may not use the same tools the social internet it's easier to dismiss

“those lives but ultimately that's a failure of empathy I mean we do have some technology problems”

when it comes to tuberculosis and other communicable diseases but the biggest challenge we have is an empathy challenge. Coming up more from John Greens tool kit we talk about the very tricky and interesting question of how you find yourself and we talk about how to reduce shame through naming I'll let him explain that. Support for today's episode comes from square and they've got big news during squares by annual

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that's linkedin.com/happier terms and conditions apply. So the other thing that great passage I just from you that I just read back to you the other thing that it raises this seems to come up a lot in your work and in your interviews is the instantiality the unfindability of the self like how can John call himself fully John if his microbe is populated by other beings. Indeed half the cells that are made up of me are not mine.

Yeah that's a little distressing to me. I have a hard time with that one but of course self is incredibly complicated. Self is in many ways an illusion like I'm not the same person I was 30 years ago. I don't have many of the same cells. I don't have a lot of the same world view. I've grown and changed a lot and I hope that I can say the same 30 years from now. Self is a story that we tell ourselves and we need to make it an expansive story so that we're not

stuck being the self that we were five or 10 or 20 years ago. We don't want to get stuck in that story so much that we don't keep an open mind to be able to change and grow. So if there's a positive to me from the fact that half the cells in my body aren't mine, if there's an upside to it, if there's an upside to the fact that the soul is not something that you can go into the body

malleable. My self can also change and grow and that's actually an encouragement I think. So I try to see the upside of that even if at times I do feel a certain body horror in the fact that I'm stuck inside of a body with half the cells being microbes.

“Yeah, I think you've written about the fact that there's some mental horror of wondering,”

you know, as somebody who experiences a lot of thoughts by roles, I believe you've put it like who's the captain of this ship if I can't even claim these thoughts as my own. I clearly can't control them. Yeah, I mean, that understanding that I'm not in control of my own thoughts is a hard thing to swallow for me. But of course, I'm not. And the thing about thoughts is that they're just thoughts. OCD and other disorders like it tell you the lie that your thoughts are somehow incredibly

powerful that if you think your parents are going to die, they're going to die. That if you think

your poisoning your family with rate on, you probably are, or at least you can't fully reassure yourself that you aren't. But thoughts are just thoughts. Thoughts come and go. People have all kinds of weird thoughts all the time all day long. And of course, the right thing to do when you have an unusual or distressing thought, I've heard therapists say that it's like you're standing on the side of the street and you're watching cars drive by. And the right thing to do is you see a weird

car and you just let it drive by. And you're like, well, that was a weird car. But there'll be another car in a minute that'll be a different looking car. But of course, what I do is I'm like, I got to get in that car and figure out what's going on. And that's the wrong strategy. Have you learned better strategies over time? Yeah, I mean, definitely understanding that thoughts are not as powerful or as important as I

“believe them to be or as, you know, I'm inclined to believe them to be, is it powerful for me?”

Understanding that intellectually is of course different than being able to fully internalize it, but understanding it intellectually is a gift and one that I take pretty seriously because I do find that knowing that as a ground of being is helpful, just as knowing that myself is a story, I tell myself is helpful because then I can kind of change the story if I need to. Do you have a story you're currently telling yourself is this like an exercise in some way?

Yeah, Dan, I'm just a dad from Indianapolis. That's just me and currently telling myself. Just a husband and dad trying to make his way in Indianapolis.

That's a really interesting question. I mean, I never want to put all my identity eggs into one

basket. For a long time, I thought of myself like, I'm just a writer or just a public person. And if my value is a public person goes down, that means my value goes down. And if my value is a writer goes down or my books don't sell as well, that means I'm not as valuable as a person. And so I'm kidding when I say, I just want to think of myself as a dad from Indianapolis,

“but at the same time, I'm not totally kidding because those are the most important identities to me.”

Is my identity as a parent, as a spouse, as a son, as a brother, those core relationships are really where I want to put most of my eggs and then the eggs that need to go into the professional basket. They're important, but they aren't nearly as important as whether or not I'm taking care of the basics. I really relate to what you're saying. You and I are broadly speaking in the same industry as, you know, I guess content creators or whatever you want to call it.

And yet I'm embarrassed to admit, but I'm doing it anyway, that most of the time, my anxiety centers around the stuff that matters less, meaning as I referenced earlier, when the podcast doesn't have a good month, or I put out a book, and it doesn't do that well, I'm clearly, consciously, and subconsciously putting my eggs in the professional basket when

it's not the most important basket. It's not the most important thing, but it is the easiest to

measure, right? Like nobody tells you like your dad points or like 8% down this month. And as a result, it'll probably continue to go 8% down next month, and then pretty soon you'll be out of business. Nobody tells you that. The good and the terrible thing about the internet is that it's made all of this stuff very easy to measure, and it's really easy to conflate what's easy to measure with what's important. Man, that is true. Back to the mystery of the self, I, as a practicing Buddhist,

really see it through a Buddhist lens, have you encountered much of the Buddhist thought and philosophy and practice around the self? No, not a lot. I mean, I know a little bit about non-attachment, but I don't know a lot about the self. So can you educate me? Well, I mean, it's just, I think you kind of nailed it to a certain extent when you said before that seeing

and my understanding of the Dharma, which is basically just the fancy way of saying the teachings of

the Buddha, that is the foundational insight, or at least one of them. The other is what your librarian friends have noticed too, which is that everything's changing all the time. And of course, that bounces right back to the self. If everything's changing all the time, how can there be a solid self? Definitionally, there cannot be. So that is the thing to let go of. It's very hard to do, but through practice, you can. I'll give you one quick one and it came to mind when you were talking

before about your intellectual grasp of the fact that thoughts are in substantial, but being

“merely intellectual is only a limited comfort. You can, I think, make it more visceral, and this”

I'm going to steal from my long time Buddhist teacher Joseph Goldstein, which is just to ask yourself

the question, and when you notice that you're in a flurry of noxious thoughts, like what is it thought? Hmm. Check it out. Go check it out. Don't just rest in the knowledge that there's no substance to us, like go look for it, and that can produce at least in my experience some visceral understanding of the insubstantiality. Does any of that lamp? Yeah, I know that really resonates with me. It can be very helpful, because I think a lot of people come to Buddhism for the stress relief,

but the wash-up on the rocky shores of this brain breaking idea of the self being an illusion, but on this level, then becomes very practical. I don't have to take my thoughts so seriously. That's liberating. Yeah, for sure, and that they pass, and there will be other thoughts behind it. Indeed. All right. Let's talk about some of your other strategies in the aforementioned tool kit. On my list here that is the product of doing some research, I see something labeled

“shame reduction through naming. Does that ring a bell for you? And if so, what does it mean?”

It means, I think, the great Mr. Rogers line, anything mentionable is manageable, and anything not mentionable tends to be not manageable. For me, a lot of the challenge of writing and living in the world is finding form for the formulas, finding some kind of ability to give language to the way down deep stuff that's really abstract. And for me, that's where shame lives. That's where embarrassment lives. And if I can bring that forth into the world and allow it to

see light through giving it form or giving it some kind of structure, then it becomes manageable. So how does that work in a moment to moment basis? Well, I guess I can give you one example, like when I was writing my book Turtles all the way down, which is about a young woman with OCD, her OCD is very different from mine, but we both have the same disorder and we both struggle with a lot of the same stuff. I was trying to find some way of not just saying what it's

like. It's easy to say what pain is like. We almost always use similies when we talk about pain.

It's like a stabbing in my neck. It's like a hammer on my head, whatever, but it's hard to say what it is. It's very hard to give direct form for pain, whether it's psychic or physical. And that was sort of the challenge I set for myself with Turtles all the way down. And what I really wanted to do was bring forth my own shame by giving it language. Language like, for instance, thoughts spirals. That idea wasn't inevitable or natural. Like that's one way of conceiving of it. There are lots of

other ways, but language like that. And then also in the novel to find structural solutions, find ways that asus internal voice can be loud enough in the mind of the reader that the reader can experience some of what she's going through so that they're not just empathizing with her. They are on some level experiencing what she's experiencing. I'd made a note of anything mentionedable as manageable. That Mr. Rogers, he had a lot of good stuff. It also kind of is

consonant with my understanding of a meditation practice, which is you sit and watch your mind, either informal meditation or as you're just walking around the world. And you notice, so hatred's coming up or fear and just the act of labeling it in the moment creates enough distance so that you're not in it. I cannot tell you how many times that has come to my rescue. And I could also not tell you how many times I have failed to do it and done a bunch of dumb

“shit. Another thing on my list is, and this is kind of come up obliquely, but I think it”

makes sense to name it explicitly. Helping other people for you, I believe you've found that one way to manage your own psychological struggles is to turn your attention outward.

I also have to turn out to the world. And I know that's not true for everyone, but it is for me.

I need to turn out to the world and act in the world as best I can on problems. And one of the challenges of that, for me, is that, you know, in the information landscape we all share now, there's a new problem every day. There's a new crisis turning our heads this way and that. And it's hard. The horrors abound in every direction. And that's true. All those horrors are real. It's not that they aren't real. It's just that if I'm looking in every direction at once,

if I'm thinking about tuberculosis and malaria and climate change and HIV/AIDS and COVID and and and and and and forever, I don't know what to do with myself. I get overwhelmed and I get paralyzed and I have complete decision paralysis and it's hard for me to even get out of bed and function. What I've found is that taking a long-term view of long-term problems is really helpful. My brother likes to say that bad news usually happens all at once and good news happens slowly.

“If we were to really report the most important news story every day, I would argue that the”

front page of the New York Times every single day for the last 30 years would read fewer children died today than any day in the last 5,000 years. And that's been true, almost every day, for the last 30 years, right? We've reduced the number of people who died under the age of five

from 12 million the year I graduated from college to five million last year. It's an incredible

incredible achievement. It wasn't natural. It wasn't normal. It wasn't ordinary. It wasn't going to happen. Anyway, it happened because hundreds of millions of people work around the world to make it happen. And that long-term change has happened very, very slowly, infuriatingly slowly. It should be happening faster. We still lose millions of kids every year needlessly. And so I don't want to pretend that like this isn't a crisis. It is a crisis. But it's a crisis that can get better

when we work on it, when we share our attention to it. And whether it's maternal health or tuberculosis or climate change, or any other big problem we share, we can see these problems get better when we

work on them together. And that outward focus and that long-term way of looking and a systemic

way of thinking about these problems is really key for me, really key to my fulfillment and happiness as a person. Because the other thing is that then you're working with interesting people on interesting problems, which is fun. It's interesting. It's interesting to think about how to lower barriers to educational access through something like crash course. It's interesting to think about how to improve maternal and child health and deeply impoverished communities,

like Sierra Leone, where the government is desperate to be working on these problems, which doesn't have the resources to do. It's really interesting for filling work. And I get to participate with thousands or tens of thousands of people and working on those problems. And it's pretty fun, actually. One of my glib little lines is the view is so much better when you pull your head out of your ass. I just see that over and over again. And you and your brother have done a great job of

“really rallying your audience too. And I believe these are your words decrease the suck,”

but like as a team. Yeah. Yeah. You're not going to decrease that much suck in the world by yourself, but you can decrease a lot of suck in the world in collaboration and partnership with other people. During this course of this conversation, we've touched on the bugs in human nature to be a little cute. We have an overabundance of bad bugs of tuberculosis because of the bugs in human nature where we can be selfish and otherwise people, etc. But then there's also the features in the human

operating system. You've also touched on, which is well-intentioned people working together and collaboration have brought down child mortality in some quite striking ways. Given all of that, like where does that leave you in terms of your POV on our species? Well, I'm broadly in favor of humans, which used to be a fairly well-established fact, but I think now is a bit countercultural.

“I'm not sure everybody agrees with me, but I'm quite in favor of humans. I think our capacity”

for wonder is extraordinary. I think our curiosity is extraordinary, but most of all I think our capacity for collaboration is very, very special. You know, answer great collaborators too, but they don't have our brain power. I've been thinking about this because I live in Indianapolis, which is the home of Kurt Vonnegut, the great American novelist, one of my favorite writers, hugely influential person in my own creative and personal life. But there were aspects of

Vonnegut's work that really bothered me. There was one novel that he wrote in the 80s, I think, called Galapagos. When someone would die in the novel, he would gloobly say, "Well, they weren't

you're not either. And on that level, most people don't matter that much. They weren't going to

write Beethoven's ninth symphony anyway. But the thing is, we only need one person to write Beethoven's ninth symphony. We really need our people to hear it. People to listen to it. People to be transformed by it. And that's the gift. It's not that it's some tragedy, like imagining a world without people that some tragedy because nobody will be around to write the next Beethoven's ninth symphony.

“It's a tragedy because no one will be around to hear Beethoven's ninth symphony. Trees, I think,”

falling in the woods will still make a sound, but Billie Holiday records won't. And I really like us. I don't know that we are good news. I understand that we are a horror,

that we have committed unspeakable atrocities against each other, against other forms of life.

I don't mean to sound polyanish about this. But I think we can be good news for each other. I really do. I agree. Coming up John talks about what he learned from his time as a chaplain in a pediatric hospital, a searing experience. His current view of God, the question of hope. And the question of how much or how little we should be sharing about ourselves with other people. I thoughtfully built wardrobe comes down to pieces that mix well and last and that is where quince shines.

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365 day returns quince.com/happier. I've asked about your view of the species. I'm curious like what your view is metaphysically. Like I understand in your younger years you spent

“time training to be an Episcopal minister and also chaplain and children's cancer ward. I believe”

which then I think went on to be the inspiration for your huge novel fault in our stars which became a movie. So I'd love to hear a little bit of that story but also like where are you on God these days? Yeah so I worked as a chaplain at a children's hospital and did know a lot of kids who were really sick or who died not just of cancer but of accidents of other illnesses. I was briefly in discernment as we say for the ministry. I'm still a Christian. I still

am a Episcopalian. I still work from within that religious tradition and find it helpful to work from within that religious tradition. I don't and this drives people bonkers when I say it but I don't know how else to say it but not really that interested in the question of whether God is really real in a way that like a table is really real. Actually quite like a table tables are constructed. If God is a construct or whether God is a construct or a derivation is not the most interesting

question in the world to me. What is really interesting to me? I realize this separates me from a lot of people in my faith tradition but what is really interesting for me is what God wants in the world. And what God wants from us in the world. I mean I'm interested in ideas of heaven in a metaphysical way. I'm interested in what would be useful ways of recycling consciousness or maintaining consciousness. I mean I guess I think about that stuff sometimes but what I'm most

interested in is what God wants from the world in my religious tradition and that's pretty

or the imprisoned or those without clothes or resources I see God it's pretty clear to me that

the last shall be first and then make sure to inherit the earth and for me it's laid out

in the gospels in a fairly straightforward way. If you're not totally convinced that God is real

“how do you know that the gospels are based on what he wants to see in the world?”

Oh I don't. I mean it's definitely a belief. I've been a belief. I haven't derived my theological worldview the way that you derive Newton's second law. It's definitely a belief system and a theological system and that system. I guess maybe because I'm American I don't feel like it has to extrapolate out to everyone. I feel like I can be quite individualistic about my theology. Yeah don't that makes complete sense. I think I was just getting at like

what you said before about God being a construct and it may be that our understanding of what he wants in the world is also a construct but maybe a useful one because we're kind of channeling the best aspects of the human mind in that process. Yeah and if you put Jesus at the center of history as Christians tend to then Jesus' teachings take on an outside role in your imagining of the moral universe but I do think that for me it doesn't really matter how exactly we came

to this place. I'm happy that to be there I guess. Back to your time in the children's hospital

“I think you've described it as the Axis Mundi or like this sort of axis of the world for you”

of your life like there's kind of a before and after. Yeah you say a little bit more about why that is. Yeah I mean you know I was 22 years old and spent six months being with people in the worst days of their lives and I've so much respect for people who work in children's hospitals so much respect for people who work in children's hospitals for longer than six months who don't bomb out of it like I did because it's hard work. It's hard to be with people as they lose their

kids. It's hard to be with kids as they lose their lives and for me it challenged really everything that I thought I knew about the world. I knew abstractly of course that life isn't fair and that there's both luck based and structure based injustice but it's different to see it up close and

I never forgot it you know I never got over it I never have been able to put it behind me and on

some level I don't want to put it behind me I want to grapple with the world as I saw it there I want to grapple with the world as it really is and that's the world I mean I remember one of my

“chaplaincy supervisors saying that it's important to remember that it's natural and normal for”

children to die that historically half of children died half of children died before the age of five you know most people who've been born in the history of the world most modern humans who've been born in the last 300,000 years never lived to see the age of 20 and so I want to grapple with that world as it is it makes me not want to live in a natural world I don't want to live in a world that's in a state of nature I want to live in a world that's shaped by

my empathy and by collaboration and by hard human work to make life better especially for the most vulnerable among us and who is more vulnerable than a child. Well said so after that experience you stopped pursuing the Episcopal Ministry did that experience to kind of shake your conviction and the existence of God oh yeah I mean it shaped my conviction about everything I didn't emerge from that with it really any understanding of a moral universe I felt and still feel that the world

either is random or behaves precisely as if it were the world either isn't different to human concerns or behaves as if it were and you know I need to build a world view that incorporates that and that still finds a way to be hopeful. Oh you brought me exactly where I was thinking I was gonna go next which is that that word hope which can be triggering or saccharine for folks what do you mean by hope because it does come up in your public utterances not infrequently what do you

mean by that and like how do you generate it? I'd say I mean two things one is that I mean hope that life can get better for ourselves and for each other and for the most vulnerable people among us

now I don't believe of course that hope is always rewarded but I do believe that hope is always

justified and then the second thing that I mean is a more existential hope the idea that forgiveness is available to all of us at all times the idea that all of us are worthy of that forgiveness

construct it that that's the idea of radical hope that even unto death and beyond death that

there is cause for belief that we're gonna be okay one way or another I am both a big

“believer in hope and very suspicious of a lot of constructions of hope because I think sometimes”

I don't want to be hope-pilled like when I'm going through a hard time I don't want to be told like everything's gonna work out well and everything isn't gonna work out I'm gonna die and everyone I love is gonna die so hearing everything's gonna work out just fine is not very helpful when you're going through a dark night of the soul when you're going through a really difficult time hearing that everything happens for a reason doesn't help me in fact it frustrates me because

you tell me the reason why this kid died you tell me the reason why people are suffering you tell me the reason you know I I have a hard time with that one personally I know it helps a lot of people and I don't mean to judge them but it just doesn't work for me what I mean by hope is that I want to find a kind of hope that can hold up to reality as I find it that can withstand the pressures and darknesses of reality and I do find that I find it in community I find it in

the fact that we've reduced the number of children who died by 60% in the last 25 years I find it all over the place I find stories of hope stories of people helping each other extraordinary acts of

“generosity and sacrifice among humans I think that's the part of our story that I want to lift up”

when I think about hope again amen one last question I had for you just didn't preparing for this something stuck out to me you were being interviewed by the your times recently you talked about the importance of not losing the magic of our teenage selves yeah can you just say a little bit more about that there are two things about being a teenager that I find interesting and I want to be clear being a teenager was terrible and so I don't

want to go back to being a teenager so I do want to lose a lot of our teenage selves right like there's a lot that you can put behind you as you grow and change into this new imagine self as we've been talking about but there are two things about being a teenager that I do want to hold on to and the first is first the first time you fall in love it's so intense it feels not just like it's unprecedented in your own life but it's like it's unprecedented in a human

history the first time you're grappling with grief the first time you're asking big questions about meaning and suffering and what we owe each other and what we owe ourselves like there's such a lack of irony in those pursuits such an open and honest earnestness in them I don't want to lose that I really want to hold on to that earnestness and and I know that like earnestness can be cringey and it can feel a little you know just I had this dog years ago

this wonderful dog Willie and Willie would roll over and he would show us his belly and I would

always think what an incredibly vulnerable making thing that is to do like that's where I could

stab you and yet you trust me with this and there's something about being really earnest that

“is a similar thing where you have to show your belly to the world and it makes you nervous and it”

can make other people uncomfortable too but I think there's real value in it and then the other thing I don't want to lose about my teenage self or my teenage experience is the way I love other people I loved my friends in high school I went to a boarding school in Alabama and so I spent 24 hours a day with my friends and with my enemies and I loved the people I loved with such a ferocity I loved them so much I would never say that I loved them of course but I loved them so much

and I thought they were so cool and I loved being with them and I loved learning about them and it came from a place of real curiosity with no judgment and I want to hold on to that I want to hold on to the way I loved when I was a teenager picked up my 11 year old at school the other day and this is only his second year at the school and then got in the car and said I love this place so much

oh that's great yeah it's amazing oh that's not your great feeling as a parent too you're like oh yeah

I did it yes at least for one moment you know when listening to you talk about loving your friends with a ferocity in in high school like I for much of my adult life just got so focused on my career that I let my friendships lapse and kind of woke up to this four or five years ago and have done a lot of work to re-establish that I'm going to a party tonight and getting back in touch with that has been incredibly moving for me yeah it's so fulfilling I've been thinking about it I mean

I'm so dependent upon my friends so relying upon them but also they're relying upon me like I've got this buddy I won't name him because he probably embarrassed by this but he can solve any problem I have like you know I've problem with the kids tree house or something and he'll come over

ladder to work right and he can solve all my problems and one day he called me and he was like hey

“can you go to the doctor with me I just feel like I need a patient advocate and I feel like”

you'd be a good one and I was like I am a great patient advocate I will go to the doctor with you and you will be duly astonished by my brilliance as a patient advocate like there is something that I can give you back and so there's a lot of joy in that for me yes yeah I have a friend who's everybody calls him Doug can fix it yeah very similar friend what's on your mind these days what else is on your mind that we haven't covered what are you working on what are you interested in

I'm writing a new novel I'm writing an novel about two kids in a movie I'm interested in Hollywood but I'm interested in Hollywood as a lens into the world that we all live in now where we're all sort of commodifying aspects of ourselves and packaging them up and then selling them for free to Instagram audiences and TikTok and podcast audiences and what that means what we lose in that process what we gain from it whether that exchange is valuable or whether the most of the

value ends up getting captured by for-profit companies so I've been writing that novel I mean really been writing it since like 2018 but I've been very focused on it for the last couple of years and that's been really fun and then I'm just trying to think a lot about the world the world around me I'm trying to get outside of myself and literally touch grass get off the internet a little bit and go for walks and I live near the white river here in Indianapolis which is to me anyway the most

beautiful river in the world and just being able to walk along the white river and be alone with

my thoughts and know that those thoughts aren't quite as powerful as I once believe they were as a nice

just a nice way to go about being alive you have a a Leslie nope level Indiana patriotism don't you I do I am a big we have our problems Dan I don't wish you I don't I don't wish to minimize the extent to which Indiana has its problems but I really do love Indianapolis I really love this town and I love the people in it and I'm grateful to the people who stay even when it's difficult sometimes to stay I feel a lot a deep deep connection to this place I'm not a native I

moved here in 2007 from my wife's job very much a trailing spouse and Sarah got a job here and so we just moved here but I love it I really do yeah I wouldn't want to be anywhere else this novel you're writing is it at all based in any kind of ambivalence you have about being such a prominent player on the internet yourself for sure yeah I mean there's no getting around the complex feelings I have about my own participation in the social internet I have complex feelings about it

because I feel like the social internet is not always a positive force in people's lives like I

want my participation in it to be a positive force in people's lives but I don't know that it is

“a positive force in the social order in fact I think it's been pretty destructive in a lot of ways”

and I don't see it getting better but also there's an ambivalence about what I've given up what I've given up in the process of talking about my mental health talking about other aspects of my private life when you share something you lose it it isn't yours anymore and there are blessings in that of course you know I mean there are tremendous blessings I know that so many people have reached out to me especially after reading turtles all the way down and told me how much

it meant to them and that they could relate to it and it helped them to feel less alone or help them to understand somebody in their lives who lives with mental health problems and that's a gift I mean a huge gift and I and yet at the same time it's hard to get around the fact that I've I've lost something in that process and so I do have ambivalent feelings about it but true ambivalence where I understand the upsides and the downsides and I don't know where I land on it so some

part of you thinks that maybe you would be better off if your personal struggles stayed personal parts of me would be better off for sure but at the same time and a lot of my personal struggles

“are personal I mean is the other thing right like there's a lot I don't share and then I think”

well if I shared some of that it might be helpful to people in the same way it's been helpful to people as I shared my OCD or depression experiences problem with it is that to what extent do you have an obligation to the public and to what extent do you have an obligation to yourself and I don't have an easy answer for that I definitely do feel like I have an obligation to the public but I think I might have a bigger obligation to myself well we have all benefited from your generosity in this regard

anything else that you were hoping that we would get to that we haven't managed to get to no this has been such a great wide range in conversation what a thrill it's a huge pleasure to have you on thank you very much really appreciate it as a pleasure to meet you now it's been such a pleasure to talk with you

we're in the middle of a very cool new meditation challenge over on my new ish meditation app

“10% with Dan Harris challenges called even you can meditate work a couple days in but it's not too late”

to join and also it's always going to be available on demand I'm doing this with seven weeks of

last see as part of the challenge and there's one more of these left we're doing video checkins

“where you can ask us questions head on over to Dan Harris dot com to download the app I would appreciate”

your support and finally thank you to everybody who works so hard on the show our producers are

Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasili are recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at

“pod people the Lawrence myth is our managing producer Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer DJ”

Kashmir is our executive producer and Nick Thor burn of the band islands wrote our theme