The Funniest Conversation You'll Ever Hear About Achieving Inner Peace | Pete Holmes

This is the 10% happier podcast I'm Dan Harris.

[MUSIC] Hello everybody, I have to be diplomatic with what I'm about to say. Because I love all of our episodes, but some episodes are extra special. And this is one of them. This is genuinely one of my favorite interviews that I've done in a long time.

I came into this conversation with high expectations. And those expectations were exceeded. Let me say what I mean by that. I knew that my guest, the community in Pete Holmes, would be hilarious. What I did not expect was how wise and useful he would also be.

Some of you probably know Pete Holmes as the creator and star of crashing on HBO or the Pete Holmes show on TBS. You may also know him from his many, many stand-up specials on HBO, Netflix, Comedy Central, etc, etc. Or you may be aware that he's the host of a big podcast called You Made It Weird, or that he wrote a book called Comedy Sex God.

Long way of saying this is a dude who's done a lot in the world.

“And that's why we wanted to have him up.”

In this conversation we talk about how his upbringing in an evangelical household shaped his early ideas about fear, morality and God, then we move on to psychedelics, awareness, identity and consciousness. We talk about mysticism and we also talk about his meditation practice and the various forms of meditation he's done. We talk about the fact that he's an affirmation addict, the role of service and helping other people,

the difference between happiness and peace of mind and much more. Real quick two things to say before we dive in first, this is a live conversation

that we did in New York City as part of a benefit for an amazing organization that you should

check out. It's called the New York Insight Meditation Center. You can get more information on them by going to NYMC.org.

“Second, if you want to meditate with me, please check out my app 10% with Dan Harris.”

We've got meditations from many of the world's greatest teachers. We also do these weekly live meditation and Q&A sessions on video, because there's all of this evidence that shows it's much easier to form and maintain habits when you've got what the psychologists call social support. So join the party. You can sign up at Dan Harris.com and let's see you over there.

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“That was not meant as a call in response. I, you should not talk for the rest of the evening.”

It's going to be clear about that. But say hello to Pete Holmes, everybody. Is this on? Yeah, okay. Nice to see you. We haven't seen the space, so we're just taking it in. It feels weird. I was telling you backstage that every time I do an event here with Joseph Goldstein, we call it two Jews in a church, and this is not going to be that at all. Yeah, no, I'm not Jewish, but I, I know what you mean. Yeah. I wouldn't do my act in here.

For fear of lightning bolts. Yeah, I don't know. It's just a little too diarrhea. You know what I mean? Like it doesn't feel. See? Feel that. You can't scroll past it. We're in the room. We're all locked in. I am very happy to be here. I'm very happy you're here. Now you're going to see how the

sauce is just made on my podcast, because I always have a nerdy list of questions, and Pete,

I want to tell you what I always tell my guests. Occasionally, you'll see me looking down, but I'm not checking my phone. I'm just looking at my questions. I'm honored. Do you do that with your podcast, guests? You have a story. You just--

turned up real high. And if I find somebody that is also that way, although I'd love to have you

“on it, I think we would find that energy, but it's more of an experiment of like-- it's more jazz,”

I guess. I feel like this is going to be-- Yeah, it's more bad. Yeah. What's that? It's more math class. Math? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You sort of have math face. Yeah. I would not good at math. Just to be clear. Not. It's still not good at math. I have math face. They weren't sure if they could laugh at that.

This is your show and I said you have math face. And you guys are-- you've never been this exact

assemblage of an audience before, but you nailed. We should play it back. The laugh that you gave that, which was like, we want to support Pete, but we love Dan. I don't know. I knew you were like, hyper-vigilant. You were like, how does he feel? Is he laughing? Yeah. Some of you started to laugh and then saw he wasn't laughing and then were like, "Ah, it was brilliant." Don't-- even that you faded it out perfectly. Don't overthink it. You're doing great. How did you do that?

That was perfect. That was perfect. I'm not even kidding. I don't think you have math face. Thank you. But it is-- Thank you? Yeah. You don't want math. I just do want to encourage you

to stay on my side for the rest of the music. Valerie and my wife said you're going to love it

because Dan is a really good interviewer. Thank you. And so I'm excited for your questions. Well, I'm not-- I don't claim to have any brilliant questions. I just have a list of questions. Did you use chatGPT? I did not. I did not. I do use it a lot. Yeah. We were talking about it back then. Yes. I was saying that I've had this like health journey recently around insomnia and chatGPT is better than my doctors. Yeah.

Add helping you fall back asleep? No, no, no, no. No. My doctors are terrible at that. Although I live with a doctor who's my wife and she also is terrible at that. When I was a little boy, I used to go to my dad sometimes to say I was having trouble sleeping and he would say "Band over and run as fast as you can into the wall." Wow. Yeah. And he was a doctor. Not a head doctor? No. No, no, no, no. Internal medicine. Yeah. That's crazy. What did chatGPT tell you about

insomnia that helped you? I have the the dumbest sounding syndrome in the world. Okay. Restless leg syndrome? Okay. Yeah. So I can't even get a dignified syndrome. And it's, I've been complaining about this to my doctors for over a decade as I mentioned to you backstage and nobody picked up on it. But complaining about it to chatGPT was like, "Dude, you got restless legs syndrome." Wow. Yeah. And is there a cure for that? Iron supplementation?

It's always iron. Yeah. Is this helpful to you guys in any way?

“Anyway, there's one person out there with cookie old lady syndrome. That's what it used to be known.”

And they're very happy to know that all they have to do is cook on an iron skillet and go in. You know, any failed artistic endeavor, the thing people they say to themselves is, if it helps just one person. Yes. And that's basically the theme of the conversation up until now when I actually start being a good interviewer. That's where we're going for. Right. Does anyone have restless legs syndrome? Clap? Okay. Yeah. Really? Several.

David Dictor has got it. You have it? Get you some iron. No. You are humoring him. Okay. Fine. That's called a munch. Yeah. He's a munch. All right. I know you've told it before, but I think it'll be good level setting. If you would just tell a little bit of your personal story. You were raised the next town over from me. You were raised in Lexington. I grew up in Newton, Massachusetts. And you grew up in a, as I understand it, a Bible believing family and evangelical

family, which I didn't know they had in Massachusetts at all. Seriously, I thought that I was surprised to hear that that's where you were from. Can you say a little bit about your upbringing? Sure. Yeah. Well, it's a little bit more complicated than that. My mother was more churchy. My father went

“because it's good to be normal. That's what, that was his quote. We went to church because he wanted”

to fit in and not be a way no. That's what he said. Did he have that bad of a, about that? Yeah. I got dad, why do we got a churchy? You don't want to be a way no. Peter, I could call my father's bank and get money. Hey, say homes. I just want to send $500 to our four, four, four, eight, nine, one one and they do it. Yes, Mr. Holmes. So my dad was not super, no, he, he would cry at the music, which I thought was really sweet. But my mother wanted us to go to church and then I really took

I just was a kid that I believed grownups. Like if you had a wallet and keys and cackies and you, you know, when the world was just legs, you know, everybody's so big and they're like, this is what it is. Why would they lie? They know all the things. So I bought into it even more

“than my mother did. So that's, that's what ended up happening. I thought I was going to be a youth”

pastor because this is my head. I went to a Christian college, technically Harvard was a Christian college, but you know what I mean? Like a, like a lame one. I thought you were going to say I went to the Harvard of Christian college. No, that's Wheaton. If you're laughing, I can't believe it. But Wheaton is the Harvard of Christian colleges. I went to the Swathmore of Christian colleges called Gordon College. I haven't heard of it either. But they had like you had to take Bible classes and you

could major in youth ministry. This is just a long way to say no one's ever asked me for my degree and thank God. Because it was, it was kind of like a summer camp school. I enjoyed my time there. But that's where a lot of people got married. They called it the MRS degree. Because

we'll never be there with as many Christian people. That's the thinking. You're going to get out

in the world and it's going to be Sodom and Gomorrah. So you marry someone here. And I thought

“that was really dumb and then I really wanted to have sex. And that's what it required. Yeah,”

you got to get married if you're going to have sex. So that's what I did. I mean, this is a lot of people. You should know about this. There's a lot of people that are like you can't. Don't do premarital sex. So you get married in large part to have sex. To force rates in that cohort, must people. On usually high, would you say? Yeah, I think so. Although I know a lot of people that are still together that did that.

And I'm sort of joking. Obviously, my first wife and I had a connection. We loved each other.

I got married when I was 22 though. And then when I was, everything was just fine. We moved here to Park Slope because we were lesbians. And my brain was so fast. It was like, "Do we do it?" I was like, "Oh, go for it. Go for it." You don't feel like you broke the ice with diarrhea. Like, I know it's all. We talked about sonar pings. That was a sonar pings to see where are we? What are we? And then I was like, "We're ready for the Park Slope humor."

And then when I was 20, and I'll really do the broad strokes when I was 28, my wife left me. She was having an affair. Only person I had ever been with. And my understanding of the divine was if you don't smoke and don't drink and don't swear and you get married and you don't have premarital sex. I felt like I had done everything right. And then it was like I was paying into a protection service. And the mafia still burned down my bakery. So it caused this crisis of faith.

And I was like, "I dabbled in atheism. I was just sort of like, I started by being like, "Well, maybe it's not. All my friends are comedians. All my friends are atheists." So they were

“all like, "You should listen to this one woman show. Letting go of God. You should read the”

God delusion." All this stuff. So I looked into it. And honestly, my first takeaway was what a relief it

was to not think that everyone who wasn't in my church was going to hell. That was actually, it was a, the chapter in my book is called Heratheist. Because it was a relief of a burden. It wasn't, oh no, I'm alone. It was like, "Thank God, we're not all on the brink of being tortured." For real, that weighed on me so heavy. I studied in Israel. I went to one of the semesters in college specifically to study hell. I just didn't understand how this religion had gotten so

with us against us in out heaven hell, all that. But I didn't really get the answer. Anyway, then my wife leaves me and I started thinking maybe it's not how I thought it was. And then I met really beautiful atheists, which was really confusing to me. I know. I was sheltered. I was just like, why would you be good? There was a story with me and I know. You should know that there are people wondering that. Like, if it's not the lifeguard God, why wouldn't the example was we were in a holiday

and me and these comedians? And there was an unmanned little mini bar. And it was just like, no one was working it. And it was like two in the morning. We were probably drinking. And I wasn't going to steal it. But I was like, why not just take it if it doesn't matter. And they were beautiful. I just wasn't ready for it. They were like, because somebody is working this shift. And maybe

to avoid punishment. We're doing it because we have to take care of each other. And I was just like,

blown away. Yeah, you can clap it. That is not my line. But it was beautiful. And it was it was important. I'd grown up thinking like the good people believed in my religion. And so I was getting surprised. And then, and I'm only a little embarrassed what a cliche this is. I did bonaroo and I took mushrooms. And it wasn't that I had a religious experience. It's that mushrooms showed me, it wasn't what I saw. It's that I saw that with which I was seeing if that makes sense.

I want to do some mushrooms. Bro, I am terrified of mushrooms. You don't have to. And I'm glad you said that because that is not my message. I'm not here. I think a lot of people are advocating that Romdas was one of my first teachers. And that was a huge part of that path. And I loved it. And I've done my

share. But I don't think it's essential. I'm not against them. But I'm certainly not telling

people to do them. And we're learning more about them, even though they're miraculous. There are certain neurotips that do not do well with them. And you might be one of them. So listen to your

“intuition. But I think that neurotip is Jewish. Now I think you should do those.”

You know, I didn't even take that much. It wasn't a Jesus trip. It wasn't a God trip. It just it felt like I mean, I can't really put it any better than that. It was it wasn't what I was seeing. I noticed I saw myself as a witnessing presence. So I got a break from Pete.

This is it, man. We're jumping right in. When you take away everything that can be taken away,

what's left? And that's what happened on Mushroom. And I went to that place and then I was kicked out for wearing the wrong garments. It's a Jesus reference. I know where you are. It's the same people with restless legs. So I had to come back. And then I didn't go to Ramdas right away. I went to Joseph Campbell because the take away was it's an affable. I had a moment. I don't remember much from that trip like that I can tell you about specifically. But there was a moment,

tears are streaming down my face. I'm looking, I mean, I'm emotional. Remember, I'm looking at a tree. I'm feeling no separation. All of these things, just crying in a field and a music festival. And I thought I'm going to have to talk about this and ruin it. So I came back with this real desire to find a way to talk about things you can't talk about. And it's softened me, not just to the tradition I was raised with, which is Christianity, but all of them. And once I found Joseph Campbell,

I started to discover that the mystics were way ahead of us. And they were saying, literalism is missing the point. It's good to build a bridge. It's not good to talk about the

“ineffable. It's good for a doctor. It's not good for a clergyman necessarily. Is that metaphor?”

Is the only language we have to speak of the mystery? You could say God, let's just say the mystery. Reality awareness. You can't talk about it directly. So then when I started looking at things like a virgin birth or a death and a resurrection through a mystical lens, I was like, oh, they're trying to evoke something. It's not trying to be accurate. I'm not saying it's not accurate. There's there's a possibility that that's just literal. That's not my understanding, but I'm saying

it's trying to evoke something. It's not to be right or to be in or to win a debate or to convert the most people. It's a personal experience and whatever gets you there. It evokes that experience in you and that there were ways without mushrooms of and meditation is one of them. But storytelling is another one contemplation, study, chanting. These types of things would take you to that place, but I had the pathway because I had had this psychedelic experience. There were

footprints in the snow and I could go back. I don't know that much about Christianity, but is it possible to do a re-reading for you of the life and utterances of Jesus and view him as a mystic

“as opposed to the ways often portrayed now, which was a little bit more encrusted with dogma?”

Absolutely. And that's honestly one of the greatest thrills of my life and I'm assuming some of you were probably raised in that tradition and that's it's been really intoxicating to realize that

he calls it the mystic lens. You have to go into these things and look at what do you want,

“what are you going to take and what are you going to leave? And I think you have to be careful.”

But sorry, people have probably heard me say this before, but it's something that I feel very passionate about. I think all of Christianity can be summarized in the prodigal sun and I jokingly say that it's Jesus' closer, that's comedian's talk for their best bit. Also, if this is interesting to you, historically speaking, it's the most, what's the word, verifiable, meaning non-religious scholars are like this was Jesus. Jesus said the prodigal sun. Now to answer your question, I'll do this

really quick. What Christ has become, it's called atonement theory, it's this idea that you're a wicked little boy and Jesus died to change God's mind about you. Richard Roar, my spiritual father said, Jesus didn't die to change God's mind. Listen to those words, change God's mind. Jesus didn't die to change God's mind about you. He died to change our mind about God.

“But he's in it with us. God suffers in and through and with and as you that he's involved”

that it matters, it's beautiful. So the prodigal sun, there's no Jesus' character in the prodigal sun. You've been told, I'm sure. Believe in Jesus, he died for you. He's going to wash away your

sins and now you can finally go back to God. That's the main narrative. The prodigal sun

tells a different story and I'll tell it real quick. It's not a king, people often say it's a king and he has two sons. One of them says, "Give me my inheritance." You know the story, gives it to him, loving father, gives him his inheritance. He goes off into a far off land. I would argue that's where we are right now. We're in a far off land using our inheritance. Life give me life, give me independence from you. Life in carnation. What do we do? We do what we

all do. We squander it. We end up broken destiny with the pigs. For a Jew, I'm not trying to be funny. For a Jewish person, that's a joke. He was working with the pigs. So we have saying he's down and out. He has no money. He has no prospects. He blew it. He blew it. What does he do? He remembers who his father is. It's a recognition. It's a repent. It's a turning around and going, "Wait, I forgot. My father's a loving father." He'll take me back in as a servant. He goes back and the father before the

son has even reached the house from quite a distance. Seas him runs out, greets him. Doesn't make him a servant throws a party, fat and calf. All those Bible terms rings on his finger special

robe because what his loss has been found. And then the father says to the son, "You are always

with me and everything I have is yours." That sounds like what can't be taken from you. Awareness, me, life, the ground of being. I was with you there. You can't become what you already are. You were my son here. You were my son there. All he did was remember. Now what we've turned Christianity into, and I say this with love for my tradition, there needs to be a Jesus figure. So somebody finds the guy with the pigs, broken down and says, "I'll walk you back to your father."

Now your father is a vengeful man. Someone needs to be killed for this, for your sins. You wicked boy. We know he won't listen to reason, but I'll let him kill me. So he'll take you back. Because he knows somebody, it's heads need to roll, but it'll be me. That would be the Jesus figures we've come to understand it. That's not what it is. He just remembers whose father is.

“Now I'm not saying you need to use those languages like I'm God's son. That's a little true”

religious, I understand. But you go, you can't become what you already are. It's a metaphor.

Jesus uses the idea of sons and fathers to say, "No matter what you do, you'll always be your

parent's child. You can't become what you already are and to quote Richard Roar, the whole Christian message is to accept that you are accepted." That's what the prodigal son does. He accepts that he's accepted that he can go home. That's Christianity to me. I think this is a compliment. You have a preacher's style. You do. Well, I watch preachers every second. Yes, you come by it, honestly. Yeah, for sure. It's great. I come by it, honestly. He's doing a phrase.

Coming out, Pete Holmes talks about what he means when he uses the word God these days. How awareness differs from thoughts, how meditation works, and why forgetting and remembering is all just part of the practice. So when you say God, because you're not in the same situation now as you were in your childhood

use the word God. What do you mean by that word? Awareness. And let's unpack awareness.

“Hostal witness. Awareness. Consciousness. Knowing. So I think maybe maybe you gave a pretty”

like comprehensible, like I got it. Description when you were talking about your first mushroom trip

where you said to the way everything except. That's right. What? The co-on that I like the most Buddhists, my Buddhists. What is, but does not exist? I don't want to say it's the best one. I think it's the best one. What is, but doesn't exist. Now we're supposed to go sit with that for a month. So do exist means to stand out from. I'm getting all of this from my teacher Rupert Spira who explains it way better than me. But it's to stand out from. So the awareness

is the background. You are aware of your experience. I stand out from it and I seem to exist.

So to not exist, it is, but we can't, it's nothing. We can't find it. So it doesn't exist.

It doesn't stand out from the background because it is the background. We're like characters in a movie and awareness or knowing knowing might be better is the screen. It's what makes our experience noble. So clearly, when we were meditating, if you look at your mind, you're aware of your thoughts. But a thought isn't aware. There's something aware that's looking at your thoughts. We hear the car horn. It appears in awareness. Mind, did you hear the car horn? Mind adds the interpretation

“far away. But it couldn't be closer to you. It's made of you. It happened in you. That's why”

what we say the nature of existence is love. It led it in. It gave it support. It was there. And we go car horn far away. But it's the background in which and out of which everything is made. So the nature of existence is love because love is accepted. I get, yeah, this might be a little out of my depth to explain. But I see it as a yes. Why would you say this is the same place to be a bullshit artist? Because it's like,

bro, well, even if you're resisting it, what you're resisting has already been welcomed into a awareness. So meditation is trying to not conjure up this thing that doesn't exist. You're trying to mimic your own nature. You know what I'm saying? Like you are this fresh, allowing. Again, Rupert uses the metaphor the space of this room. We could be fighting. We could be dancing. It doesn't change the nature of this room. And to me, meditation has a lot to do with knowing yourself to be that.

And what's better than being spacious? I spent the first half of my spiritual life wanting to be

right or persuasive or impressive. And now my heroes are like the space in this room, accommodating fresh, clear. And it's not just a thought experiment to go like, "Okay, I'm like the space in this room." Once you recognize that you are like a field of knowing, which is a little bit easier to know when your eyes are closed. But you can still know when your eyes are open. It is field of knowing. The second step is to ask, "What is the nature of that knowing?"

Because it's again, Rupert, without agitation. So we call that peaceful. It's happy. It's joyful. I don't mean the kind of joy you get when you eat ice cream. I'm not talking about oxy, toasts, or whatever. Talking about without agitation. So when I wake up at four in the morning, as I inevitably will tonight, replaying moments from our dinner. You will. Yeah, for sure. Restless life? Yeah. Do you know anything for them? No, I'll get up to pee. And then I'll

get back in the bed and I'll be like, "What did I say to Dan with Dying Bears myself?" And I'll just

“have to go, "Who or what is aware of my experience?" And then, if you want to get tantric with it,”

let's say I do, it's emotional. You feel humiliation. So the Vedantic approaches to step aside from it and go, "I am not humiliation. I am aware of my humiliation." But the tantric approaches to go, let's get as close as we can to that and let it in for tea. Beyond no resistance, welcoming, and you see this thing that you call humiliation is actually kind of a grab bag of 75 different

to do with, but they're like children. They wanted you to pat them on the head. So you go into it.

But then you go like, "There's this experience and then there's the knowing of it." That's kind of romdouss approach. Rupert would go. There's no distance between the knowing of it and the experiencing of it. It's made of the knowing of it. And then you just kind of fall into that.

“I think two ways of understanding it from my standpoint, so I want to say them to and then”

get a sense of whether what I just said makes any sense. Sure. So on the, on the example you gave about humiliation from my basic old school Buddhist mindfulness approach, well, anything you're

feeling with the microscope of mindfulness can be investigated and broken apart into what you say.

60 constituent parts, you know, it's buzzing in the chest. It's a starburst of thoughts. It's rumbling in the tummy. It's a bunch of stuff. And in this way, I believe, I love this phrase. I believe it's seeing by dividing is the way they describe insight, meditation, or a bit positive. And so you see that this thing that feels monolithic, personally monogrammed, is actually made up of these fluxing parts. Yeah. And it kind of loses its power in that way. So that's one way

in, I have another way in, but how does that land with you? What I just said? I like that. Okay.

“Yeah, I think we're talking about the same thing. I get a little bit like, what is this experience”

made of? And there's a comfort to going, it's me. It's a modulation of myself. And there's no distance

between, there is, I don't find a nowhere and an experience. I find experiencing. And it's very intimate and it's very close. And that helps me release it a little bit. You know, it's like, if you close your eyes and go to the experience of your body right now, you know, you feel your butt on the seat, maybe your elbows on the armrest, you see that there isn't really a body, per se. There's just the knowing of these different clusters of sensation. And this

either does it for you or it doesn't. So if we stick with that, we have body, we would drop that and we just go, okay, there's a tingling at the bottom of our feet, our face, our hands. And then there's my voice. And then there's your thought. I like this. I don't like this. Is there a distance between where my voice is appearing in this field, this knowing field and the thought? Now picture Michael Jordan isn't he emerging out of the same place that the knowing of my voice is emerging, the

knowing of the image of Michael Jordan. This is what Rupert says he says, put out an imaginary hand and pass through your mind's eye image of Michael Jordan and say, what is this made of? Do that with my voice? What is this made of? And really, I don't want to answer that for you. Like what is it made of? The thought, the feeling, the sensation of my feet? What is it made of? Where is it happening? The sound of a distant thing? Your thought, now a feeling comes up in a motion.

There's something really liberating about going, it's me. It's a modulation of me. It's the knowing of it. Is it? And then do we find a boundary? Can you go somewhere here where it ends? Is there a wall, a divider where you find and on the other side of it? There isn't knowing. Now we kind of start to cozy into the dimensionless quality. You could call that infinite, but it's, I kind of like dimensionless. It's just kind of

spaceless, but it's without boundary. And this is where you get compassion when we were meditating, when all our thoughts, let's also, we all got to that thoughtless place. Were we different? When you're deeply asleep, everybody's enia. Everybody's enia on the inside. Nobody's metallic. I like metallic. I'm just saying, if you could calm anybody to zero, same. So when I'm struggling with somebody, we share the same nature. You and I share

“the same nature. And we can go there. That's what's beautiful about things like this. We can”

actually go there together. How many boundaryless borderless infinite spaces could there be?

It's like the Dow. The vase has a shape, but it's the empty space inside that makes it useful.

“These are people trying to evoke the importance of the nothing. Is that makes sense?”

That's a tough question. Let me give you the second way in, because you use the phrase we can

go there. We can go there together. And my experience sometimes, these conversations can be beautiful, but also a little frustrating for people because it's like, I can't get there. I don't, you know, like, I can't fully rock it or experience it for myself. And so the one technique for me, that's been very helpful. And I'm just curious to hear your thoughts. And it comes from Joseph Goldstein, who is a great meditation teacher and a great friend. And he has this practice called the

passive voice practice. So in your beautiful sort of impromptu meditation, you were guiding us in, you were having us tune into the fluxing sensations that we're calling body. So one little linguistic trick you can do is, oh, um, tightness or pressure is being known. Instead of, oh, I'm knowing or I'm aware of these sensations. Oh, these sensations are being known. And then, known by what? That's right. Then you're just like turning the camera back,

add itself in a way and like, oh, what, who's taking delivery of these sensory packages? What is knowing it? And there's, there's nothing to find. Yeah. And that's the finding. Yeah.

I never understood those like Alan Watts would talk about, can a knife cut itself or can a flashlight

“point at itself? And that's kind of the space that we're in. And that's why we want metaphoring,”

we want evocative things. But it's, if our awareness is like the sun, and it shines on the earth, and it makes things knowable, even not even, but science would agree with that. There's consciousness, and it makes things knowable to me what we're talking about. And I think we are doing the same thing is the sun does illuminate itself. It is self-fluminous. Again, this is Rupert. We are self-knowing. Something that's very useful to me is like, am I aware? And if you all ask yourself, am I aware?

And you go, you go, and you go, yeah, I'm aware. Where did you go? To what experience? And again,

this is all Rupert Spira. To what experience are you referring when you come back definitively with

a yes? What was that? And don't say, I have this written on my mirror. Don't say I don't know because you're having the experience right now. That's the issue. Is what we're talking about when this starts sounding, and I'm with you, can start sounding a little too out there, a little too weird or whatever, confusing, conceptual. We're talking about the most intimate familiar experience. And not just to get familiar with it, but to align ourselves with its qualities. It's fulfilled,

it's at peace. And when you talk about 10% happier, obviously I was thinking about happiness. There's different altitudes to answer that question at, and don't get me wrong. I'm all about finding your purpose. I'm all about sharing art, connection, helping all of family love. We can have that chat. The most lasting one is getting familiar with who you are, because that's there. Take it from me, take it from an affirmation addict. I did town hall on Friday. It's gone.

It's gone. You know what I mean? I did a comedy show. When great, show it to me. I don't buy into the idea. Tony Robbins, who I like, talks about living his life for rocking chair moments. When he's old, he'll sit in a rocking chair and remember all the things he did.

“With respect, I don't buy it. I don't think that's how it goes. I think what we should be going”

for is peace of mind, self abiding, self remembrance, all of these things, because that's a lasting peace that doesn't even need to be conceptualized. If we're old and falling completely apart, it's still with you. What are the modalities for you that help you get peace of mind? I mean, honestly, conversations like this, meditation, obviously, I mean, obviously, meaning I think we have that in common. And then sort of strangely, service, getting, this is fun, but my wife

when she laughs, she was like, "You're going to love it. You're going to talk about your favorite thing to talk about." So this is indulgent. And then when I'm with my daughter, I'm not thinking, "Oh, we're in God's dream. I'm just loving my daughter." And that is worth a thousand live podcast. That's 10,000. I'm willing. You know what I mean? So we can come out at lots of

that my or whatever you want to call it. I think it matters that we had a nice dinner. I think

“it matters that we were joking backstage. I think it matters that you're smiling. I think it”

matters that my wife kissed me before she left. I think it matters that I'm excited that I'm going to see my daughter tomorrow. I think it matters that I did a show that I did what's written in my bones to give to other people. And I can still recall the faces of the people laughing in the thrill of that connection and that merging. I'll talk about the other side of my face as

well. I'm just also very interested in what Jesus called the piece that passeth understanding that one too.

King James. Both. I'm interested in both. You called yourself an affirmation addict. Yeah. I felt seen when you said it. Good boy. Thank you. So, say more about that. I meant specifically how good a boy I am.

“Just fabulous. Great, great stuff. You want to talk about that, though?”

I want to talk about addiction to affirmation. Yeah. I think everybody's trying to feel safe. Yeah. And I think people are using outdated modalities. You like IFS, I like IFS. I don't think there's any. I say that with no shame. I learned getting laughs and being a golden boy meant less fighting, more safety, more quiet for everybody. So it's a wound, but it's not. I don't regret it. And it's useful. We were talking back stage. I was like, yeah, their days where I'm

depressed or anxious. And then I'm driven into the hands of other people. When I'm broken, this piece is only so useful. We're like a screen in the movie. That's fine. But broken peat is actually one of my favorite peats because he needs you. And God, that's, we talked about this at the pre-thing. Holy and wholeness. It's the same root, right? We need each other. We belong to each other. Ramdas would say we're walking each other home. So the peat that's an affirmation act,

“it is like thank God. You know, how much closer to me do you feel to knowing we have the same thing?”

I think this whole root is an excuse to love each other. It's all in elaborate hoax and I've had experiences this angelating, overflowing gratuitous, almost obscene. Yes, of ah, can't help. It's its nature to erupt and expand and clash and we're all going to go backstage and take off our masks and laugh to tears. And I'll say thank God, I was that guy that just needed people to laugh or he felt like a wicked boy. We wouldn't be talking if we weren't affirmation addicts. This

wouldn't be happening. Great. It's all an excuse. It's a hoax. It's a hoax. If we were fine, then would be at home. Right. So our wives, yes, are not here tonight. Not by mistake. That what your wife has had a play in my wife's at home. And those people are fine. Daly is, you said it backstage that she's just sunlight, not everybody sees it. So I think I'm not just saying this because you like it, but that's a credit to you. There's certain

people that can see Valerie and I just think she's incredible. It's funny. Talk about happiness,

relational happiness. We just uncovered this. I was like, we've been together for 13 years and we really are, I don't know. It's just one of the great loves. I really think it is. And sometimes people say what's your secret and we go, I say, find someone who thinks what's annoying about you is funny. And that's Valerie. I do a meditation event. I open by saying diarrhea. She would be like, that's my man. She wouldn't be faking it. She should feel embarrassed and

I'm weird. She'll tell you, I'm 75 people in a day. And she sees all of them. And I say to her,

“my first wife left me and I'll be like, please don't leave me. I know it's so tender, right?”

And she goes, I'd be bored with anyone else. Can you hear? Wow. It's incredible.

But yeah, she's not here. She said, oh Mary. And I'm proud of her, because we both deal with codependence. So she loves being like a support. She wants to be there. I'd object in whether 12 times. She'd be smiling. She went and I'm proud of her. I was like, you really wanted to see that show. It's the last night. Go to see it. So she's doing good stuff too. Our wives are a little different because after one of my events, one of the rare ones that she came to,

backstage, she said, I like you so much better in public.

It's fantastic. It's a great line. It sounds like I'll enjoy her if I get to meet her.

Yeah, it still hurts a little actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, Val is incredibly sweet, but I am sort of a little bit of a baby. I, again, I'm self directing back to the topic of happiness. I think there's something about

“being unenberast that that's how I am. I say this to Val all the time. I'm like,”

I'm not resigned to being this way. I am working on it. But thank you for reassuring me here, all this sort of stuff. We talked about it backstage. I'll go and entertain 1,000 people and really get them. Then I just need somebody to be like, you weren't embarrassing. You don't need to be afraid. It's this real, there's a pendulum swing. And again, thank God. Because if I came home the guy that was on stage, I mean, I love that guy, but like that's not, he's not a great partner or

father. Like you need a real person. That's the other thing about happiness is like having outlets. We're one of the few tribes that don't do like, you know, American tribe. We don't do mask work. We don't, we don't, we do Halloween. But we don't have a lot of allowances for like, like new years. Oh, it's kind of wild on new years, you know? It's such a pathetic substitute for cultures that understood the nuance, the dream like ethereal quality of all the different masks we wear. And that

“is one of the reasons I think I'm a very like a deeply happy person is I have these can grab this”

vine and swing to a pirate ship and be a comedian. I know it's not all of me, but it's this whole other thing. And then I also get that psychological need. I need to be heard and I need to be understood. And people laugh, I like the laugh, but I like the connection more. I like the understanding more. And then I swing back. I tell Val after I do the show. I'm like, I won't tell that joke for a month. And those 30 days, I'll just be, you know, a boring dad. I love it. But it's because of that outlet.

It could be karaoke. I don't, it doesn't have to be show business, but it could be that friend that I'm so grateful for friends that love salty me because I like being people know me as like a sweet positive. That's true. But man, I love roasting things. Man, I love complaining. I love being a bitch. And when you find real friends that don't just allow that, but celebrate that. That's like wearing masks. It's like it's a drinking buddy or it's your choir. These are the people that know this side of me.

I find that to be really. And then you're not, I'm not burdening my wife. Obviously, I don't think it's just a burden, but like comedy me is like hot takes. That's great. But like, you don't want to be with that guy all the time. So when I'm a dinner, I'm not doing hot takes. It's like I got it out of my system. So outlets could be your baseball team, but places where you can do it. You know, when, as you're speaking, I'm thinking a little bit about RuPaul's brilliant stuff on drag.

Yeah. You know, that is. I mean, it's mask work. It's mask work. Yeah. But most people aren't doing it.

And I think that's a real loss. I always thought it was funny or interesting that in some of

these tribes that do mask work, they put on the mask of like the misfit, the devil. And they look in

it's divine. Putting on a show is divine. I'm not Pete. You're not Dan. I don't know your names

where you're not that. You look in the mirror and go, oh, this. And you go around and people keep nudging you to be what they think you are and what you told them. There's nothing wrong with it.

“But it's, it's, it's, I think one of the reasons why we, sometimes way too much, but a claim”

actors, when mayoral street transforms, we go, I knew it. I knew you weren't that last one. And you're not this one. We're, we're not that. I, I think there's more understanding, so called non-spiritual people. When a baseball player, Red Sox, is traded to the Yankees, like Johnny

Damon was on the Red Sox, because traded to the Yankees, go to Fenway Park, play the Yankees.

Johnny Damon comes up and he's a Yankee. Everybody gives him a standing ovation. That's a divine moment. You're not the uniform. I remember you. I know you. You're the guy's son. You can go home. It was just a game. It's my daughter's name, Lila, to dance, to play. The play of the universe. It's not wrong. I'll be someone you can be mad at. So you can learn how to forgive. I'll be somebody for you to love. It's just, it's all an excuse to clash up against each other.

“And it's all uniforms and masks and play. And that's why I think comedy is so important. We laugh at it.”

Nothing essential to me is out there. Because it's the same, we're all the same.

Coming up, he talks about how these ideas we've been discussing in this conversation hold up in the real world. Why having a spiritual practice does not eliminate irritation, judgment or reactivity. And why saying yes, thank you. That's a little mantra. You can have immense power. What you're describing is beautiful. I'm interested to hear how good are you at applying it to life. In particular, you exist and have thrived in a

hyper-competitive and often quite toxic business. The entertainment business. How good are you at like that? It's moonshine. I mean, you may have a side hustle. I'm unaware of that chat just be teed and not alert me too. Yeah, there's a, there's a, there's a, something doesn't line up. No, I, I, I think it could line up, but I'm curious to hear how, how well you think you line it up in, in your day-to-day life. Yeah, to steal a line from Father Greg Boyle, who if you don't

know who Greg Boyle is, you, I, I couldn't recommend his books more. He found it homeboy industry's a charity I really love. And I asked him the same question, because he, I mean, help make you, we talking about this sort of stuff. And I'm like, how, how, how do you keep yourself in that space? He's dealing with, he works with gang members and people are literally dying and people are all these sorts of tragedies. And he just goes breath, breath by breath. He's like, with every

“damn breath. And I tried to remember that. I asked Richard Roar something similar. I was like,”

are you cooked? Are you converted? Do you just see everybody as God and drag talk about RuPaul? Or is it effort? And he's like, it's both. Mm-hmm. Oh, it's absolutely me. We were talking about this at the last thing. Take a couple meals away. Take away my coffee. I was telling you, I'll be on an airplane. I'm like, I hate this guy's head. I hate this guy's head. If we're deplaning and the robe behind me tries to leave before me, I'll stand and face them to shame them

and then take my bag down while making eye contact with them and then deliberately leave slowly. So absolutely, that's, that's, that's why it's so compelling to have a, a practice. Even as we're discovering it, here together, talking about it, it feels like that. It feels like, oh, right. You know what I mean? I'm not just holding the diamond in my pocket all the time and Valerie, my wife again, is just so good at everything belongs of it all, that it's not an error

when I spend a week completely forgetting any of this stuff. And she's like, it's not a mistake.

because you're always the guy's son. You can't become what you already are. And yeah, but yeah,

I lose it all the time. Constantly. Every day. After this, I'm going to fight you. I don't like my odds. You're like, six, six and ten years younger than me. You'll be fine. Double bottle. Yeah. Break it. That was spoken like a guy from Boston. There was, yeah. That was the most Boston thing I've ever been saying. Oh, but that's good. Ramda says, if you think you're in line, I'm not, I'm not saying that. I don't think people are in

light and I think awareness is in light and only awareness is in light and sometimes it wakes up in me.

“Sometimes it wakes up in you. Deep sleep, deep meditation, you're tasting your true. That's why”

feels so good, right? So I'm not claiming that. But Ramda said, if you think you're in light and

go spend a week with your parents, F minus. Yeah. I've sat with my mother going, I am loving awareness. It doesn't. She has my number, man. She'll break me out of that spell so fast. Actually, she'll put you into this spell. Yeah, that's right. That's right. She'll pull me into it. When I visit home, it's like they give you a play that you thought closed in 1986. Yeah. But they're like, here's your script. You're like, "Ah, pop, you're the best. How do you do it?"

It's brutal. So yeah. I think remembering and forgetting, you know, so much of the, I'm not a physicist, obviously, but so much is the wave, right? And I think we're in that wave. And I don't think it's an error. I love thinking about and people of it. If anybody's ever

“listening to my show before you probably heard me say this a million times, but I think it bears”

repeating like, one of the original translations of the word that we now translate as mindfulness. Yeah. The word in Polly, which is the language in which the Buddha's teachings were written down, is Sati. And the original translation is remembering. Yeah. It's like we're in this, and this actually is really helpful to know while meditating. It's like the tide coming and going. Like you're gonna get lost and then wake up again and in your meditation and in your life. And so you're

behaving the back of somebody's head and then you'll be loving awareness of 30 seconds later. Okay. So I think you'll think this is interesting. The way that I've learned to meditate with Rupert is they call, it sounds a little pretentious, but it's the pathless path. So a progressive

“path would be, let's focus our attention. The pathless path is sort of like recognizing”

that it's absurd to focus what you are. It's hard to explain, but the image that I use is resting, self-abiding. It's like being out all day in the city and then you take a hot bath. You just rest into it. He goes, he's quote somebody is saying Enlightenment belongs to the supremely lazy individual for whom even blinking is too much effort. And I just go,

you're always with me and everything I have is yours. Ramanama Harshie died. They said,

don't die. Don't leave us. And he said, where could I go? Where could I go? So you're meditating. When we were meditating, I do get distracted. Yeah, that too. It's just, it's just, I'm so unbearably lazy. It's the opposite. I'm not, I've done the focusing, but like what eventually started to make sense for me was just, and it's hard to explain. And even as I'm saying it, I can't believe it works, but that's another self-abiding as a meditation.

Well, this is a big debate. And I don't take aside in this debate. I have two friends, the aforementioned Joseph Goldstein, and then my other friend Sam Harris. They are old friends of each other, and have been fighting about the pathless path versus the more directed, progressive path. And I actually recently had them on my podcast, and it's the only time in the nearly 10 years of having a show where in the middle of it, I put my head on the table. Oh my god,

yeah. I could imagine. Yeah. You know, there's a place for both, absolutely. Yes. And again, Rupert would say as long as you feel yourself to be a separate person, if you can't just rest in it, then do a mantra. If you do breath, it's like fine. Like it's sort of whatever gets you there.

different people for whom different things work. And it's, I mean, one of Joseph's little

expressions is, you know, whatever works. If fine what works for you, there isn't, I don't think

“better or worse. There's what works. Yeah. I think you would be well-versed in this. It's a tricky thing.”

All of this wondering about better and worse. You know what I mean? And then when you're there, you see that meditation being this like gratuitous, yes, and this, the more you try, the worse you do, the surrendering and this melting. And like we, I'm not saying, I'm above it. I'm not saying it's bad, but it reminds me of the church I grew up in. It's like, was it a literal virgin birth or similar

where it was at a literal seven-day creation? It's like, we might have lost the plot a little bit.

If Dan's head is on the table, maybe we took a wrong turn. And I'm not throwing shade on those guys because I do it too. Yeah. I'm just saying when you're there, there's a lot of laughing. Yeah. There's a lot of, it's a funny thing to try to be what you already are. It's very funny. Okay. You brought us to laughter. For some of you were there, we had a little event before this event. And so I'm going to ask you some of the same questions I've already asked you in the course of this

evening, but it'll be due to these folks. The restless leg folks. RLS. RLS. Oh, restless leg folks.

Okay. Yes. I'm slow. Oh. There's a reason why I asked the questions.

Laughter in your view. You've already kind of articulated it. It is kind of an expression of you didn't use these words, but and so I'll check them with you. Kind of an expression of the enlightened mind.

“Is that, is that your view? I think it can help you taste. Let's say that you don't go along with it.”

When you're really laughing or when you're, you know, climbing a mountain with no harness you go to zero. When you meditate, you go to zero. People dancing, people line cooks in a flow state, they go to zero. And so I'm not saying it's unique to laughing, but I do think one of the reasons we love deep sleep. Why would you love something you can't remember, but you love it. It's not for how you feel. You love it. You loved it. I'm looking forward to it. You love being

zero because it was you. It was you with everything taken away that can be taken away, except that which cannot be taken away. So this isn't that exotic. You taste it every night. And when you laugh, I think you taste it. If you're, and I'm talking about my own experience, I can't imagine, you know, I'm not going to guess what my audience is going through, but one of the things that I experience when I'm really laughing is, is void, is just nothing. And it's such a, it's like the eye of the needle. You can't bring

that girl didn't say yes when I asked her out. It can't go with you. It was just you. You were naked

“felt good, right? And I think that's why a lot of the things we do flight suits. You know what?”

I mean, people just want a break from all of this, all of our troubles. And it feels really, really, really good. Yeah, it's at our language. We want to be blown away. We want to be blown away exactly. And I killed them. I killed them. Yeah, I killed them. Yeah, I killed them. Yeah, I killed. Yeah, or I died. If I bombed, I say I died. But the funny thing, it's not at the serial. And I promise not to go on too much about this. But if you're curious, what it feels like to do stand up,

it's again, holy and whole. We want to merge, right? We want to, it feels better meditating together. Live comedy feels better than watching it. When we all are laughing at the same thing, it's like a drum circle. It's ancient. It's, it's shamanic. And I'm not the fancy boy as much as I'd like to be. If I fall into it as well, we're all gone. That's when it's good. It can be co-opted. And then the guys are like, I'm the king and I'm the king, but the best ones. I say to

audiences all the time, you're watching me. I'm watching you. Like you're grading me. I'm grading you. Like what do you think? You think you're off the hook? I'm nervous for you. And it's real. And then we start, I could talk about this forever. So you're going to have to moderate, but it's like,

to do with literal sex, but it's the same thing as I'm sorry, but as a good lover, it really is. Oh, hairs on your neck. When I, oh, right? I don't want to be too graphic. I'm just saying, the bad sex you've had. Somebody was doing a bad open mic. You know what I mean? Like it was, they weren't attuning. You could make it, it meant more church friendly and just say a good conversation, a good date. Attuning. Somebody saw your face fall when you said, my dad,

somehow, what's going on with your dad? Holy, that's amazing. We love that feeling. When we can

do it together, and when you're, I'm saying something, and let's say it's crazy, and we're all going with it, you're next to every, it's, it's amazing. None of us were there. Not, if it's done properly.

“And that's why a heckler is so offensive to me, because they're saying, I resist this merging,”

and I want to hinder their merging. That's why a bad comedian is offensive to me, because they're resisting merging with the crowd. They're not listening to the crowd. They're not attuning to the crowd. It's interrupting something far more special than a show. That's why cell phone at a Broadway show is so, you snap me out of it. I need to be away. And then I heard whatever sound brings me back to all the stuff I'm trying to just a little break.

Let's end on this. You have a little mantra that I really like. I'd love to hear you talk about what it means and how you apply it. Yes, yes, thank you. Yeah, I think you might have added

“it to yes, but I like it. I didn't ask for notes. It is yes, thank you. Yes, thank you.”

I've heard really good teachers saying, if you can just say yes to what is that, that's all you need. I don't know how true that is, but I found, I wrote a book which I mentioned and they sent copies of it, which is funny. The book is where I wrote about yes, thank you. And then they sent copies to all the reviewers and then I looked through it and it was like three versions ago. As a writer, you can relate to this. It had notes to myself in it. It had a word. I used to go meaning

come back to this, which is a silly word flappy, just as flappy throughout the whole book.

There were chapters that I cut in the book. It was just my first book, deeply disappointing.

And you feel this like black, cloud, you're just sad, then you're embarrassed. To me, it's the feeling and then it's the embarrassment that you have the feeling. It's worse than the feeling. And I find that it really, we don't even have to spiritualize it or philosophize it, it just short circuits your brain. If you say yes, thank you to it. And I mean almost instantly in my experience,

“flight is delayed. Yes, thank you. It's so weird. That's why it works. Everything”

attraction and aversion, right? So aversion is just charging it with all of this push, like a a basketball underwater. So you're giving it all the energy when you just, yeah, as if it's what you wanted. And then you realize you're in an airport, you realize you'll be in an hour later. And you know, the brain wants me to be like, and then you recognize somebody, you haven't seen in 20 years. It doesn't have to be that. It can just be a clean breath and a recognition

that you're alive. And maybe you see the sun coming through the window. And maybe you remember that people used to die and covered wagons on the journey you're about to take in four hours. But that's mind stuff. But it can really be way less than that. Really not debating with the bad feeling,

just saying yes, thank you to it. It's that's been one of the most powerful things in my life.

For sure. I'm glad you brought it up because it's been really, really helpful. So yeah, with the book, I laughed because I was like, it's in the book. And I was like, yes, thank you. And I mean, it just lifted. It just lifted and travel stuff. I travel a lot. So I do it a lot in traveling.

as an affirmation junkie. I had high expectations for night and you exceeded them. You were amazing. Thank you.

“Oh, thank you, my friend. And thank you. Thank you very much.”

Thanks again to Pete Holmes. He's my friend now. I don't know if he knows that, but he's my friend now.

Don't forget to check out my new app 10% with Dan Harris. If you sign up, you and I can be friends.

“Danheris.com. There's a free 14 day trial if you want to check it out before you buy.”

Last thing to say here, thank you so much to everybody who works so hard on the show.

Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasily are recording and engineering is handled by the

“great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our”

senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer and Nick Thorburn of The Band Islands wrote our theme. [Music]