48 Hours
48 Hours

Witness

2h ago43:095,782 words
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In 2001, Charles Forshee was charged with murdering Dillon Ferrar, a two-year old child in his care. Dillon’s four-year-old brother, Lucas, was a key witness at trial, and testified that he saw Forshe...

Transcript

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Amanda DeBerry, always dreamed of having a family.

What was your favorite photo? My favorite photo is this one, just because he looks so innocent, you know, just really the true face of innocence. Her baby boy, Dylan, and his big brother, Lucas, meant the world to her, and to each other. When Dylan was born, I told Lucas, you know, this is our baby, and Lucas enjoyed Dylan. But, in her effort to give her boys a safe and loving home, Amanda wound up losing Dylan,

and putting Lucas in the middle of a heartbreaking mystery that will change his life forever. Oh, good. Love you. Look at this one. OK.

She's only 21, but Amanda has had to grow up pretty quickly. That one. OK, put a circle around that one. And she admits to making mistakes along the way. You had your first baby at the age of 16.

Yeah, and look at it at 16.

Why was it important for you to have children?

That's a challenge. My parents got divorced, and, you know, when I was, like, 13, I just, you know, like, OK, well, I want to have a family.

But that ideal family life never happened for Amanda.

Instead, she found herself at age 19, trapped in an abusive relationship with Lucas' father. And pregnant with her third child. You know, all these goals and all these dreams, you know, and it was hard because I felt like I failed again. The biggest mistake is an mistake that I made. She was too embarrassed to tell her mother, Judy Tinsley.

For whatever reason, I made my daughter feel like she couldn't come to me. And so, hey, mom, I've messed up. I'm pregnant again. I need help. Amanda sought refuge at a shelter for battered women here in Houston, Texas. And she decided to put the baby she was carrying up for adoption. When doctors put her on bed rest, the shelter urged her to have someone else care for the boys until she gave birth.

It was a decision that will haunt her for the rest of her life. You know, I really thought when I put my kids in the foster care and when I was giving the baby up for adoption, I was doing the smart thing, and it didn't turn out like that at all. How does it sound mark? May I help you? Amanda turned to the homes of St. Mark.

Are you interested in newborn adoption? A private foster care agency licensed by the state of Texas. The agency had what seemed to be an ideal solution. A couple with 17 years of experience as foster parents. Charles and Linda foreshare.

Babies were always on me. It didn't matter.

A lot of ones, the big ones. You know, they were Sean, love to you, and you were Sean, love back. The foreshaves had two sons who were adopted. And over the years took in more than 90 foster children. Here, this is Julian, that's the calling.

Why accept that many children into your home of all these years?

Why not? It's your answer, I can give you. They needed a place, and we had the room at the time. I want to think when we got married, we said we wanted a big family, didn't we? So we had it. For us, it wasn't chaotic.

This was normal. Charles was a technician for Southwestern Bell. While Linda stayed home and took care of the children. The foreshaves, once honored as foster parents of the year, seemed to be the answer to Amanda's prayers.

We saw them during the visits to the boys seem okay. Yeah. You thought your children would be safe in their care. Yeah. But two months into the children's day,

There was trouble inside the foreshay home.

The evening of June 21st, 2001.

After Lucas and Dylan had gone to bed that night,

Linda went into the room and found Dylan unconscious and his crib. So I picked him up and took him out the front room and told Charlie something was wrong. And I helped him notice that he was a little blue around the lips. And Charlie took him and started CPR on him.

I now want trains for good, man. That was wrong. I had a little boy that I put the bed and I went and checked him and stopped breathing. Hey, Charlie? Yes, he's trying to turn below.

He was crying when he was awake. I'll be right near right now. The paramedics arrived quickly, but it was too late. By the time Amanda and her mother, Judy, were called to the hospital.

Dylan had died. You know, they had all kinds of things.

Put that to him and I went over there and I wanted to hold him.

But I don't even think at that point. I realized that he was dead. As I was running into the room, I said, Dylan, it's okay, grandma's here. We're going to get you out of here and the nurse.

But I'm sorry. We've done everything we can. He's gone. And he was cold. He was so cold.

Amanda and her mother were in shock. And the foreshay said, they were just as devastated. It's been a nightmare because it was like losing one of her own children. I'm sorry. I felt I lost the child that night.

And he was my child and I lost him. Everyone wondered how Dylan could suddenly die

one month shy of his second birthday.

The unbearable answer came three months later when the autopsy report was released. They ruled it a fixie and due to suffocation homicide. Dylan had been murdered. And Sergeant Bruce Williams says police knew who was responsible.

We think Charles Horshay actually committed the murder. Charles Horshay, a man who devoted his life to taking care of children, was charged with an unthinkable crime. Based on the statement of an eyewitness to the murder. What did he say?

He said Mr. Charlie put the pillow on Dylan's face. Dylan's brother Lucas, it was only three at the time. And he heard him and we had to come to the hospital. A little over a year later, the future of a 56-year-old man is in the hands of a now for your old boy.

Lucas doesn't realize it yet, but he's about to become the state's star witness. As Charles Forshay goes on trial for murder.

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Start your free trial at Shopify.com/au. I miss you baby boy. Keep guiding mommy through her dreams. We love you and miss you so much. Today is Dylan's birthday, and we're going to let all these balloons go.

You hold that part and I'll hold this part. We're going to stay up there and hope they all get to him. Are you ready? Amanda D. Barry's son, Dylan. What have turned three today?

Everybody let him go. Look at us. There we go. Lots of Dylan. We could be murdered.

Today I'm just trying not to think about Charles Forshay. This is the room that the boys are in. Charles Forshay is the man Amanda believes is responsible for her son's death. He was Dylan's foster father. This is my leg monitor.

Now he has been charged with his murder. For 12 hours a day, I'm tied to this house. And he's been waiting for over a year to go on trying. At my age with what the charges are by going jail.

I probably won't come out.

Forshay is fighting for his life because of what his other foster son Lucas said the night Dylan died. Lucas was just grabbing my shirt.

He's like, "Mom, I have to tell you something.

I have to tell you something. I have to tell you something." What did he say? He said Mr. Charlie put the pillow on Dylan's face. And he hurt him and we had to come to the hospital. How long have you looked at?

Lucas repeated his story the next day. In this video tape statement obtained exclusively by 48 hours. Charlie there was at him. He couldn't lay down and he put the pillow on his face. And he...

And the plate took him to the hospital. And why was Charlie yelling at Dylan? Because he told him that they don't. We don't write that pillow for his face. And you believe him that...

Very first time. Oh yeah. Kids just don't say things like that off the top of their head. But kids do have wild imagination so Amanda. About monsters.

About creepy things in their closet. Not about someone they know.

Walking into a room and hurting their best friend.

A lot of fun. Maybe we're all my friends. I play with all these babies. To care about them. Four shades sons, Richard 28 and Brian 21.

Say he was a great father. Been there through everything. They can thin. A firm disciplinarian. But never physical.

He has a stern voice.

He has never raised a fist to us.

He never got spanked. You know so many people even at church in that hotel You've got a special gift. And everybody would say, "Oh, you're going to be rewarded in heaven. You're going to have your own special star."

And I feel like I don't know why we're going through this hell right now. We are left with a child who was clearly murdered. He did not die by accident. He was murdered. Prosecutor Andrew Sunny Mitchell says

4 shades snapped that night because he was exhausted from working overtime. 13 days straight. She says 4 shades just couldn't cope with Dylan's crying and smothered him.

Anybody's capable of snapping at any point. I mean anything can change how you've been all along. One thing is undisputed. On the night of June 21st, 2001, Dylan and Lucas were rampantious and refused to settle down.

A third foster child was already asleep.

Dylan was screaming and basically I figured Lucas was aggravating his brother. First Linda tried several times to calm Dylan down. Then her husband went into the room and says he tried soothing the baby with a back rub.

I put my hand in the middle of his back and was rubbing his back the calming down. And told him if he wanted to cry crying the pillow. How much pressure were you applying? Just put my hand on his back.

But what 4 shades told police that night was far more incriminating. His statement reads, "I flipped him over onto his stomach. I then placed my hand on the middle of his back

to hold him down. Dylan was trying to get up and I held him down." 4 shades says Dylan was still crying and therefore very much alive when he left the room. Shortly after that, Linda found Dylan unconscious in his crib.

Lucas was standing next to the bed with his hand and the baby's bed and he hurried up and jumped over the end of his bed and made a nose dive into the pillow but Dylan didn't move.

So I picked him up and took him out the front room and told Charlie something was wrong. I laid him on the floor and started CPR and told her to call 911.

Is it possible, Charlie, that you don't know your own strength?

Is it possible that you lost your tender that night? Is that possible you manhandled the child? No. No. No. No.

This is such a tough case, you have a dead child and a wonderful man. 4 shades has hired prominent defense attorney Stanley Schneider

who plans a defense that seems just too incredible to believe.

He says Charles Forsche did not kill Dylan but he knows who did. Dylan's brother Lucas. Are you telling me that this boy who was three at the time is capable of murder?

When I thought about murder, if someone caused the death

there's a possibility it was Lucas.

I'm brother, yeah, and I don't think it was intentional.

I don't think he realized what he was doing. The Forsche say that from the beginning of the boy's day they were concerned about Lucas's overly aggressive behavior. They knew Amanda had been physically abused by Lucas's father and that Lucas had seen the violence.

He has put pillows over his brother's head, pushes brothers head into pillows. You saw him do that? Yes. Linda documented Lucas's behavior in her monthly report

to the foster care agency. She even took a photo of bruises she claims were from Lucas kicking and punching her. Then one night it was something Lucas said that had Linda especially worried.

He came in and told me he was going to kill his brother,

his mother, and me. And I got on the phone and I called the agency right away. The agency set up a meeting for the following week but it was too late.

Dylan died two days after Linda's friend to call.

Do you miss Dylan? Yeah. Yeah. But what do you miss the most about him? I love him.

You love him. Now the question is, will a jury believe a child so young could be so violent? Most of the human population will be able to see that a four-year-old child

is absolutely in every way and capable of being the spawn of Satan. I have to tell the whole story. Okay. I think we're all right.

I'm going to get downtown. Yeah. Charles Forsche, a foster father who has cared for more than 90 children, is nervously waiting to go on trial for murder.

I'm hoping that the truth comes out. I'm exhilarated. The victim, Dylan Ferrar, the two-year-old he once promised to protect. The accuser, Dylan's brother Lucas.

All right. Come on. On the other side of town. Lucas and his mother Amanda are just as anxious. Because he's just four, you know,

and he's scared to death. How have you explained to him his role in the upcoming trial? He's going to be Dylan's superhero. He's going to be Spider-Man

and help out all the people of the city by being Spider-Man and telling the truth about what he's doing. Lucas has been meeting with a therapist and prosecutor's sunny Mitchell

to help him get ready to take the witness down.

Lucas, do you know the difference between a lie and a truth?

Um, I can't, I can't know the lie. I only know the truth. Is he credible? Lucas is credible. My opinion, Lucas is credible.

He spontaneously, with an hours of his brother's death, told his mother, Charlie heard him. Charlie did it. And a year later is still maintaining exactly what he said then.

Okay. And when Charlie put the pillow over, his head Lucas was Dylan laying on his tummy or his back then. He was laying on his tummy.

His story is consistent.

He always identifies Charlie as the one that hurt Dylan.

And he crushed him. And I hope it breaks anything. Given what his level of comprehension was and just what a three-year-old knows if he did see his mothering,

it would be very hard for him to explain. Psychologists, Maggie Brock, an expert on child testimony from Johns Hopkins University, says it's always a gamble to rely on a witness who's so young.

What has been made to tell the truth and to tell a lie? I don't know. We showed her the videotape interview, Lucas gave investigators the day

after Dylan Dunn. What happened to Dylan? Charlie there, we're not here. He can lay down. And he pushed us from the one this day.

And he, and the plate took him to us. But he was breathing. And, and, and, and mommy come in.

What's this valuable?

I think it was something to start to investigate that this child said Charlie put a pillow over Dylan's face. Mommy took on Dylan and she was crying. Mommy, don't cry.

Something happened? Well, that was.

I mean, I think the child saw something.

I think that child was confused about what he saw. What happened at right after he told Dylan to lay down? He said no.

He said no. Charlie came out. Charlie said no to Dylan. But I also think that they did it or they couldn't help him to elaborate.

What did the pillow look like that he put over his head, his face? He, he was crying. He was crying. He was crying.

He didn't look crying. Dylan was crying. He wanted to make that pillow brave face. He didn't like that pillow over his face. So he was crying.

One year and three months after Dylan's death. All right. The trial begins.

Mitchell decides to save Lucas's testimony for last.

She first presents what she believes

is equally compelling evidence against Charlie's foreshade. The cause of death was due to a sphere due to suffocation. Then medical examiner, Dr. Joy Carter, testifies Dylan could not have died of natural causes.

He was forcibly suffocated. Could this child's death have been caused in a manner consistent with pushing down on the child's head causing his face to be pushed into a pillow? Yes.

Two police officers say foreshades own words that night made him a suspect. They explained to me that they had been doing the foster home for about 20 years. And that his wife liked to tend to the younger children.

And did he tell you how he felt about that? Yeah, he told me that he was upset with it. Kind of tired of it. This Mitch, we make call your next witness, please. Help man to his lead to Barry.

Then Amanda takes the stand and repeats what Lucas told her the night Dylan died. What did Lucas say? Lucas told me Charlie did it. And the stage is set for the joy to hear from Lucas himself.

We need to take a short break before the next witness to get set up. Lucas will testify sitting on a couch and a room next to the judges chambers. The jury will watch via close circuit TV.

At his mother's request, Judge Joan Huffman orders the news cameras turned off. Nobody can film and nobody can record. Everybody understand the rules. Thank you.

At first when the prosecutor questions Lucas,

he answers easily. Who hurt Dylan? Charlie. What did Charlie do to hurt Dylan? He pushed on his back and on his stomach and on his face.

What did he punch him with? A pillow. After he hit Dylan with the pillow, what did Dylan do? He stopped crying.

But when defense attorney Stanley Schneider questions Lucas, the four-year-old can't even remember basic details about living with the forces, like whether or not they had a dog. Lucas has answered to many questions as a simple "no" or "nope."

And that's how he answers when Schneider asked Lucas

if he had ever placed a pillow on his brother's head. After about 40 minutes of questioning, Lucas seems tired out. And the court has to take a break. Well ladies and gentlemen,

we try to plan for everything, you know, we just can't predict. The witness is napping.

That's never happened to me before.

I've had a juror throw up during a final argument, but I've never had a witness fall asleep. That child's that company. Is Lucas for our good witness? No.

I wouldn't have put him on the stand. Not because I think he's lying. I don't know that he has enough to tell the jury. That's a value. I thought Lucas did well.

Lucas remembered what was important for him to remember. Amanda has just relieved her sons or deal is over. Who's in heaven? Dylan. Uh-huh.

Do you like being as hero? But the defense is about to argue that Lucas is not a hero. That in fact, he's his brother's killer. [BIRDS CHIRPING] Do you have a dark curiosity?

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Amanda still calls Dylan her sunshine baby.

This is kind of my, my Dylan shrine. I feel like, you know, having all his pictures up here. It's him watching over me and Lucas. [BIRDS CHIRPING] This is my Spider-Man.

Lucas was a hero for Dylan, says his mom, when he testified in court. He might've just been this little bitty boy who was Spider-Man. You know, he was a superhero,

just by words, you know, if nothing else. [BIRDS CHIRPING] You're certain, with how to shut over doubt, that the right person is charged. I believe my son.

I believe my son. But will a jury believe young Lucas and take away a man's freedom? I'm looking at the fact that I have 12 people who I have no idea who they are going to decide in my life.

I don't know whether I could even never feel into jail because he's my whole life. [BIRDS CHIRPING]

The pressure is incredible.

The worry, you know, I've got to figure out ways

to do this and everything has to be perfect. Defense Attorney Stanley Schneider has devised a risky plan of attack. [BIRDS CHIRPING] He will accuse a four-year-old boy

of being responsible for his brother's death. We have a very disturbed young man. Schneider believes Lucas, despite his age, is downright dangerous. Give Lucas, give me kiss.

And we have six people describe Lucas putting pillows over other children's heads and cutting off the air to other children. Do you believe Lucas is responsible for his brother's death?

I do not know truthfully. I do not know what happened in that room. After I left it. All right. Do we should be solemnly swear

that any testimony that you may give it to him? Schneider launches his defense with foreshades knees.

Lucas was always beating up on Dylan.

His sister are pushing down or taking a toy away from him. And the boy's babysitters. Lucas pushed his brother around a lot. Lucas had a hope of him.

Just a dead hope on his neck. Their allegations against my son are absolutely insane. Schneider's tactics have infuriated the entire family. The slime ball is trying to blame a mother on a three-year-old child.

How low can you go? Schneider is about to use Linda Forshade to score another key point of his defense. Good, man. Yes. I'm at 42, 15, and 10, okay?

And it's right on the 911 tape. My husband's got him on the floor trying to do CPR. Okay. What Lucas really saw that night Schneider claims was not a vicious murder.

But instead, vigorous CPR. That was he bringing at the time. No, but a lot of stuff coming out was nose and mouth. Okay. Now, when stuff was coming out of his nose and mouth,

what did you do? We'd grabbed a diaper that we used this and started wiping the fluid. According to Schneider's theory, when Lucas testified Charlie hurt Dylan with a pillow,

Forshade was in reality wiping fluid from Dylan's face with a diaper. Okay, up his chest rapidly. 5 times. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

When you're carrying, what did Charlie do at his hand?

He was pushing during the compressions. Where was Charlie's hand? On the baby's chest. Do you want him on the back? Yeah.

Don't do that. And do you ever hit Dylan on the back? Yes, he was patting the back until they told him to stop. When Lucas told George, Forshade pushed on his brother's back and on his stomach and on his face.

Schneider says Lucas was actually describing the frantic efforts to save Dylan. Okay. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Nope.

He's gone, okay? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Nope. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Nope.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Nope. You saw him somewhere in the chest? What did you give him? No.

Charles Forshade takes the stand to speak for himself. Was crying the children in your house the norm? All the time.

Wow.

What did you do?

Schneider argues that Forshade was used to the stresses of parenting

and could never have just snapped.

Do you ever force his head into a pillow? No, I did not. He was simply trying to soothe Dylan. I put my hand on his back and his buttocks to calming down. That's not what it says in the written statement.

Is it Mr. Forshade? Prosecutor Sunny Mitchell. Boys in. You know, you keep talking about soothing him. In your statement, you said I held him down.

You didn't say anything about giving him a soothing back massage. Did you? No, man.

After caring for ninety foster children over the years.

Mitchell believes that Lucas and Dylan were two children too many. For Charles Forshade. Kids can get on your nerves. Can't they, Mr. Forshade? You can get on my nerves.

Anybody can get on anyone's nerves. She says he was fed up with crying babies. And just wanted the noise to stop. Tell us how you told him to be quiet. As a general rule, private says shut up and go asleep.

And you held him down, according to your words, for about a minute. As a bigger speech, yes, about a minute. Next, Mitchell forces him to relive what happened that night. I'm just asking you if according to your demonstration, the child's face is in the pillow. I don't know what Dylan's face was in the pillow.

From the bed or not. And that's not my question to you, Mr. Forshade. My question is, in this demonstration, it's true. It's based out. In this demonstration, the dial said it's based out.

Mitchell scores another damaging blow with pediatric pathologist, Dr. Harry Wilson. Could a three-year-old child have caused his death by suffocation? Not possible. They three-year-old child cannot and would not do that. He says a child that age simply doesn't have the strength.

You don't know about how aggressive a three-year-old might be to affect suffocation to do it for three or more minutes. No, they would not do that.

The truth is Charles Forshade murdered my grandson.

It's so scary. I don't think I've ever lived in fear and fear. It could be like until now.

I'll never be the same that I was.

But I would like to be able to live a normal life again. I'm ready for the meal. This case will be over soon, one way or another. This case will be over soon. Defense attorney Stanley Schneider must find the right word.

Suit tire states. What he tells the jury in closing arguments could set Charles Forshade free. If he fails, Forshade will be condemned as the killer of Dylan Ferrar. I need to remind them who Charlie is. Hey, loving, caring, and giving man stands for where he...

...Charge, George, Murphy. Why? Why would Charlie do anything out of the ordinary? I don't care. This is the man who for 17 years loved children. The voice of reason, the truth about Charles Forshade, about who he is. I'll tell you there's only one word.

Back guilty.

To a quit the defendant, you have to believe Lucas killed him.

Prosecutor Sonny Mitchell argues Lucas wasn't physically capable of murder. It was Forshade who killed the baby in a fit of rage. By God, he was going to make him go to sleep. And you can bet he grabbed his head. Pushed it down and said, "I said shut up and go to sleep."

In the final moments of the state's argument, Prosecutor Mitchell asks the jury to imagine the final moments of Dylan's life. Mr. Charlie, I can't breathe. Mr. Charlie, please let me get up. I want to get up. Please let me get up. Please, Mr. Charlie, I promise I'll be good.

Please, Mr. Charlie, I promise I'll stop crying. That's what Dylan went through. But you can write the moral to the story.

You can teach the lesson to the story with your verdict.

He is guilty of murder. All rise for the jury.

We basically went around the room and everybody said what they thought.

As the jury begins to weigh the evidence,

the four shades weight, reliving the past. I lost my life the night. And fearing for the future. You're an experienced defense attorney. What does your gut tell you?

Now that the jury has become deliberations. I don't know. I don't know. I've had so many people tell me it's in the bag. What would satisfy your mandate?

For him to spend the rest of his life in jail. Nothing less. Nothing less. In just two hours. Ladies and gentlemen, we have a verdict and the jury will...

The jury decides four shades weight.

In jury in place. Please be seated. Mr. Foreman has the jury reached a verdict. You may hand it to the ballot, please sir. We the jury find the defendant Charles Richard Forsh,

not guilty, son. Sit down, please. Amanda and her family are too stunned to leave the court. I just felt like I was entering. I didn't feel like it was real out.

As Charles Forsh, walks away a free man. Excuse me. You've got to fight back. You're in prison. I've been in prison for the last year.

I finally somebody listened to what was going on.

You can kill it to your old, get away with it. Because you got 12 ignorant, stupid people on a jury. You're refused to listen to evidence. You know, I don't think the baby dad of natural causes. But nobody convinced me of who did it.

George David Kelly, Jim Butler, and Don Sheberg set down with us to explain their verdict.

Were you ready to accept the word of a child over an adult?

I was ready to, yes. He would have been credible to me if he could have answered Stanley Schneider's questions. He didn't. Schneider did a very good job of saying, "What, Lucasau, was the CPR action?"

That was the most persuasive argument for you. To me it was. You used the word for it. I believe very strongly in the defendant's guilt. And I knew that if I wasn't successful in convicting this defendant,

that Lucas was going to have to live with the fact that people didn't believe him and that people believed he had killed his brother. Do you believe Lucasau was somehow responsible for his brother's death? I don't think he did it. And I don't think any of us thought he did it.

So if Charles for Shay Jones did not kill Dylan for our who did? That's not what that was not our job. And then we were not charged with that. That wasn't a question. I'm asking you the question.

Our charge is to presume the man is innocent. If they can prove it beyond a reason about that, he did it, then we ought to say he's guilty. And if they had, I would, that gum will say he was. So in the end, the boy who was encouraged to tell the truth

is now sheltered from it. Where does he think Charles for Shay Jones today? He thinks he's in jail. And that's what's best for him. Why?

Because he's so terrified, I think if he knew he would grow up looking over a shoulder and I don't want him to do that. I don't go into kindergarten one day. What do you want to do when you grow up? I want to be a police man.

You want to be a police man? Why? Why a police man? Okay. They get the bad guys, right? I don't want them to have gumpox it.

Gumpox. I put my gum in my pocket. Yep. For now, Amanda hopes that Lucas will live a life more typical of a four year old

and prays so always remember that he once had a baby brother.

Give me a kiss. Charlie, is there anything you would like to tell Dylan's family? I'm sorry he died, I didn't do it. I wish I could have saved him. I did everything I could that night to save his life.

My message to him is I know he did it. You know what happened? Yes, I do. Because my son told me and I believe in my son. In 2003, Amanda D. Barry and her children were awarded a $300,000

Settlement from Charles and Linda Forsyth.

When beloved family patriarch Gary Ferris went missing, his family looked everywhere

on their property until they came across something horrifying.

It's a homicide. Absolutely.

The blame game in this family went round and round.

This is bloodesticker, the Ferris wheel.

I would don't see how anyone can look at this story and think they were happy.

Binge the full series, bloodesticker, the Ferris wheel on the free Odyssey app

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