Jack Antonoff

I'm Dax Shepherd. I'm joined by Lily Padman. - Hi there. - And today we have one of the most successful music producers

of the last decade and also an incredible singer

and songwriter in his own right. - Yes. - Jack Antonov, he has produced acclaimed albums from Sabrina Carpenter, Kendrick Lamar, Lana Del Rey, Taylor Swift, Florence Welch,

and many more. His bleachers albums include Strange Desire, Gone Now. Take the sadness out of Saturday night, the self-titled bleachers fourth.

And now the fifth album, everyone for 10 minutes. And I was so grateful for this episode because I was in the dark on bleachers and now I'm in a-- - Now you're in the light.

- Oh my god, one song dog. - You're staring directly into the sun. - As you'll hear, please enjoy this very sweet artist, Jack Antonov. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) - You got a coffee, do you like to have a cheeko? They're very rare now. Do you know there's the shortage? - I love them, I'll take them.

- Yeah. - I don't want you to have like one of our four reserves. - Yeah, I don't know about the shortage. - 90s, $6 now. - The big shortage that I'm dealing with in my life

and I know there are more important things in the world, but the kind of album that I like. - Oh, all my butter. - The kind of like, no, I like a coming called Woodstock. The one I like seems to be discontinued.

- Oh, no.

“- I think I spent more money than people”

which has been on the home, but are getting a case. - Stocktile in it. - What's up with that product? - Me too. - Tell me about it, the texture.

- I don't know, I just love it. My life outside of my work is so like I eat the same thing. I do the same thing. So if I get into something, it's hard for me. Which I think is bullshit, I can say that loud,

but internally I'm like, this helps the thing. - Oh, I see you connect it to like your overall interest and almost the superstitious water. - I get really anxious otherwise. - I'm painfully the same.

- Yeah, I just didn't own me on just before you got here that I eat 100% of mornings, I eat the exact same. Hope me I'll, if I'm in a situation where I don't have my protein powder or my almond butter. Yeah, I think like on my sanity's really on the verge here.

- Here's the upside, yeah, when you are robbed of your little comforts and you're completely fine, you're completely reminded me, yeah, yeah. How fucking stupid it is, it's more, if I don't have to think about my life

outside of the important things, the people I love, my work, why blow you tiles on it, are you tiles?

“- And I think this is this term of like energy units”

for your brain. - Oh, okay. - I think our friend Eric actually made it up in order for you to ask why are you? - You tiles?

- No, we learned it from him and he does mispronounce everything, but I now like, that's the real form. - You think you think it is a real word and I don't know that it is, but please use it. - Sure, yeah, I mean, reality is as we perceive it to be.

- Deem it and say it, we all of our names for things or just people like us sat and thought of them. - That's true. - That's true, you know? Just noises your tongue makes.

This is how we feel about swearing with my children. I'm like, it's just a noise that comes out, you assign to it whatever you want. - lately I've been in my albums, I've been on the radio here and they're like, you know, no, fuck shit, piss, all the stuff.

I'm like, okay, and then we're talking and then cuts to commercial and they're like, you know, 11 dead in blah, blah, blah, torn apart by this gut strewn everywhere, shot in the face. And I'm like, I can't fucking just say like this song.

It's fucking dry, I mean crazy. That is not a problem in the world anymore. - Cursing is not exactly. - You know, it's a mother fucker at this point is just like means anyone like this, mother fucker was talking.

It's not even bad, I just think the stories and words to be generally here in life feels like maybe it's time as a world that we're just like, if a kid says fuck, it doesn't matter. - And let's catch up.

- My thing is like, as long as they use it,

first of all, they're not allowed to use it out of the house.

They got to use it funny. They got to be good at it and both of my kids are good. They don't just do it for the point of it. It's like every now and then one comes out and it's perfectly timed and I'm like perfect, keep it on that.

Like if I had a kid and they were like, pick up my fucking toy and be like, this is bad. But if they were like, the new, whatever, is unfucking believably cool, I'd be like, nice use. - Or like if they were like, this piece of shit

tried to take my life shit, yes, there's a moment. - But I imagine words are actually very important to you. - More than anything, yes. But I have an amazing split in my head about what I'm thinking in terms of imparting a feeling

and what I'm just talking to you. So a lot of times I'm just sitting around be like, ooh, you're like two sounds. - Yes. - I gotta tell you something, I'm sure they told you,

but like anything that we talk about that you don't like tomorrow, you're like, yeah, I wish I hadn't said that about Rachel, we cut anything out, so just start there. - It's nice to hear because my work is so much fun and talking about my work and the interesting thing is

I have has always been so much fun

and I feel like we pressed into this place

“where it became not fun and I think we're”

pressing back into a place where it can be, not just when I say fun, I mean, interesting, deep.

What do you think was happening? - I just think for good reason the people running the show have been so disappointing that we have all, for good reason been holding each other to a very intense standard of dignity

as dignity has completely gone out of phase. I think that's coming back in a way, but I try to see things, you know, I have my own personal feelings about things and then I have like my feeling,

I live in like pan back and see like, well, what are people feeling? Right now, I feel like people are feeling starved for a community. I feel like people are very bored with things

they didn't think were possible to get bored about. - That's interesting, yeah.

- Oh, that's my essential feeling.

I feel like people, yeah, have grown, thank God, fatigued of being angry and everything. - Or realize how limiting it is, yeah, yeah. - And we're surrounded by a lot of people who,

“I think about this a lot, a lot of the people”

who are meant to shock us and I'm not in any way minimizing how horrible and shocking their actions are, but them themselves is not shocking. You imagine like Trump got up there and was like, I gotta talk about my dad.

I think there's something wrong with me. - Yeah. - We'd be like, I know. - Even when I see people who I have remarkable differences with having like some moment of growth,

I'm stunned, but like growth is everything. It's all we have. And so I think when we're trapped in these endless conversations of people who are not gonna do anything differently, we know exactly what they're gonna do.

We know exactly how they're gonna do it. It's almost like a new kind of boredom. - Yeah, yeah. - You're a sadder boredom. - Not a fun boredom.

- Yeah, that's interesting. - Okay, I wanna start with saying, I'm very, very excited to meet you. And as we just discussed a little bit of Mike, I'm friends with your sister, Rachel.

- Oh, my family, you're all this so much family? - I was invited to Rachel's fashion show, so I did get to meet her there. - Cool. - I can't say I know her, but hopefully one day.

- She's the most well-liked person. - Yeah. - Of experience. - That holds. - I don't know if you was really pretty.

- You're an anima? - Yeah, if you got a problem with her, you gotta go away. And I remember, so back when we were doing parenthood. So I don't know if this was 2010 or 11, maybe nine, I was in New York and I were there to promote the show.

I was hanging out with me and she brought your sister along. And then I came to like her a lot and then they were telling me, yeah, Rachel's brother's a musician. I was like, learning about you. This is free 2000, I guess 14, everything kind of exciting.

- So yeah, so I'm like in a van, smoking pot. - Yeah, I'm not a great. - And they're like, do you wanna go to a show? They'll be nine other people there and you can't leave because they'll see if you leave.

- I don't know why it's so rewarding to have gotten this notion of you back then of your musician, but you're kind of like a punk kid. I don't know. And then yeah, to see you kind of take over the world

from a distance I've always been like, I love that.

- I have another example that, me and Aaron, my best friend from childhood, we were in California or 21. We were at a house party, the squirrel's talking's like, oh yeah, my brother's band is really good.

It's getting big. It weren't like, what's the name of it? And she's like, corn in here and I work with the football and the sweet name for it. I remember, I was like glad to be so hard

that this girl's brother was in corn. And then years later, of course, we were like, oh yeah, this guy was sick. (laughing) - It's just got a fun.

- But you're a little brother, a big brother, I forgot. - Middle child, middle child. Same. It's a sort of invisible space in a nice way. - You can choose to be really anonymous.

- Yeah, I was there in my room experiencing my OCD.

“- Yeah, and what's the gap between Rachel and Sarah?”

- Me and Rachel are two and a half years apart. Sarah's five years younger. So we could have similar friend groups. And we did. I was like younger.

So what I was 15 and started to get high, she was 10. That's a stretch. - Yeah. - Yes, it was 18. - Yeah, I didn't know each other.

- But I would argue you might have been in the same stitch. I was five years in that six years and I was in the middle so. There was a teenager that was going berserk. And then there was a baby on the scene.

So between like the crime and then the teenager that was going berserk, I could have been downstairs lighting things on fire, no, no. - Yeah, I was pretty unsupervised.

I mean, it was the time I was going up, living in the suburbs, being a middle child. And then my younger sister was also born with an illness. So nothing was pointed at me. No one was watching me in a cool way,

my parents are wonderful. But I just, I lived kind of maybe those last years of that suburban dream of just sort of I would leave the house and not your bike. - And not come back and no one's looking for you.

- And I was just gone. And I would have lots of thoughts, a lot of that good boredom.

“- Yeah, I think there's tons of trade-offs and positives.”

Oh, I don't, I think it's a net negative, but I was also starved for attention.

Clearly, you know, the second I could,

I came here to try to get as much attention as I could. So clearly, I craved it. - I did too, but I also believed so deeply in doing something that was worth attention and had like a real intense construct around that.

But that also came from like the type of music I was listening to in that community, I was very obsessive about what mattered, what didn't. The rules in my head were very heavy then.

I didn't give me an example.

I hear my parents' music, which is great music.

What did they like? - The sixties. - Like the great stuff. - And then I started to hear like the music of the nineties coming through like the radio.

And that was a pretty heavy stuff too in terms of what was real and what wasn't, it was made very clear to me. They don't feel now like this is shit. This is the real stuff.

They were all these rules coming out of Seattle and all this stuff. - The grunge felt all the intensity. I remember when Green Day put out Duky quite quickly hearing about how much shame they had after a curplak.

It was just a lot as a kid. - Mm-hmm. - To be in a cell out was a really big thing. - It's a big thing. - Any better was quitting virtually.

He's like, oh, it was a cell out. - Pop was coming into its height, I feel. - Yeah, in a different way. I missed a lot of music of my time because it was so off my radar.

But it was just made very clear. Like the music I was listening to at that time that was mainstream. The artists would get to a certain point and just waged the fuck out.

They would just be like this sucks. And that kind of actually was pretty beautiful. But then I got cooked in the local music where the rules were even heavier. And then my world got really small.

The idea of a major label, if you didn't literally do it yourself, you were a piece of shit. - Yeah, that's so crazy. - Yeah, that's the idea.

But I kind of loved it because it was community. We had a lot of great rules. You didn't put on a show unless there was also a fundraiser. - Oh wow. - There was no show that wasn't $5 or $4 for the can of food.

There was political action everywhere. And the fucking music was great. And the scene was so rigid that it really did weed out anyone who didn't just love it. It's like how I hear people who do theater talk.

No one's there, it doesn't wanna be there. - Yeah, right, right. - It pays nothing and it's too hard. - Yeah, very pure.

“- I think the downside is it was a little self-pretentious.”

- Oh, for sure. - Yeah, I would think though that the liberating thing about it is if the goal is to not sell out, you're kind of liberated from trying to figure out what people want.

- It's weird. And I take so much with me. I wrote about so much and say, "But there's a part of it that is just who I am." And then there's a part of it that is separate.

To me, the concept of selling out being full of shit, phoning it in, assuming the worst of people, assuming people are dumb. That's all in the music. If you believe any of those things in the music,

if you think people need to be pacified or painted, then that's the worst selling out of all time. To me, it all lives in the music, the shows, what I would and wouldn't charge the audience for, not trying to pull on over on people.

We just live in a think we're getting out of it. But I think that there's been this kind of get the bag time period where a lot of bad actors have pulled one over on people. And you don't want your work to be for a very small group

of people who can afford something that's incredibly boring. - How'd you guys meet? - I started out as their nanny. - Peripheral member of our friendship group. - Sorry, I got it.

- No, no, yeah, we were... - Which led to babysitting. - Yes, don't know the stories. - Oh, yeah, sorry for the listener who's hearted. - Full disclosure, I can't listen to people talk much.

So I don't hear a pretty podcast.

“But I think it's kind of maybe interesting.”

And I try so much and there's so many things that can only watch something.

- Well, first of all, we're on YouTube now.

- Oh, cool. But what happens when you're listening to audio only podcast? - Well, when I was coming up, it wasn't a time of great diagnosis. But when I listen to people talk or it can happen

when I'm reading too, I can get sort of like flustered and anxious. I have to be very focused. It's not like I can't do it. But I don't get the joy that people like for me

listening to music, watching a movie. That's the thing that I've heard people describe of like their friends on the podcast. - That's so interesting. - It's interesting.

- So I have no relationship. In my cousin, Jacqueline Novak has a podcast called Pooge, which is like, "Brillie." - Very big. - And she's one of my favorite minds to ever exist.

- Yeah. - Can't do it. - I mean, I literally can't do it. (laughing) It's really weird.

- It's not for you. - It's not that good. - Hey, that's not bad. - Hey, that's not bad. - Listen, we just found out about it.

- You can only say that if it's the opposite. (laughing) - He's trying to be saying it. - What do you want out today? - The third.

- Four. - I'm sorry, fourth. - Fourth most streamed podcast of all time. - Of all time. That's amazing. - Pretty good.

- I was happy to see that. - Is number one two and three upsetting? - Well, no. - What I hadn't heard of, the number two.

- Yeah, she never heard of.

- She never heard of. - What? - Yes, what was Joe Rogan? - Okay, of course. - Number one of all time.

- Two is something I didn't know. - I don't want to be a national. - Okay. - And three was crime journey. - I never heard of number two.

- Then you all are the only one of your type. - It's a German comedy zone. - It's a German what? - German comedy podcast. - German comedy?

- Good to meet you. - Good to meet you. - My favorite genre. (laughing) I do a lot of bits in Germany that don't land.

(laughing) - I really try. - And for good reason, there is, yeah, they're just nice. - But I'm always trying bits and they're not liking it. It's one of the most successful places right, Ben.

- Really?

“- I think the Germans have an understanding”

of American Heartland music that's very pure or something. - For real, yeah, I believe that. - Well, hopefully they listen to this and then they start listening. - And then we move our minority.

- It's we now, then we move the... - That's right, we get to that number two slot. Okay, our origin story. So we had friends in common. Then I did an episode of Kristen show how supplies.

- As an actor.

“I did a two-line thing and she was like,”

"Oh, I know you."

We chatted, they just had their first kid.

And I said, "Well, I am an actor, but I'm really a babysitter." That's how I make up my money. So if you ever need babysitter, she called the next week, date night babysat for them.

And then they had their second kid, they needed a little more help. So I came on as a nanny, worked as an nanny for a couple years. Their second went to preschool and they were like, "Uh-oh, we don't really have a need for her anymore,

"but we like her." So what should we do in Kristen's like, "Well, would you want to be my assistant?" So I said, "Sure." And then I started doing that.

And then I started just kind of taking on extra projects of hers, like I would write stuff for her. They'd ask, "Hey, do you want to do this thing for this magazine?" I'd say, "I could write that for you." And she was like, "Oh, you do that."

And I said, "Writing all her speeches." And I said, "Writing her commercials." And the week became creative partners. And then Dax stole me right out. 'Cause all this time she's around.

And we have very different opinions on most things. We'd love to argue in our kitchen. It was our hobby. Quite the front, really? Yeah, very different.

Well, we have, there's no more overlap.

Yes, there's more overlap than... But we'd like to make a meal of the differences. Anyways, we loved debating each other. And so I was like, "I'm gonna start a podcast. I love being on them.

We should do it together." And then we did.

“And now the only thing in our way is the Germans.”

I don't know, I don't know. We got to get them. Yeah, it's quite a story. Really? Yes, it's wild. It is weird.

This is the part she hates, but that I love. She built a house. It's bigger than ours, of course. It's not bigger. Okay, I can't.

I feel nice. It's nice. It's such a great American story. Here's the problem with everything. It's like, there's truth doesn't matter.

We're just gonna go with what's happening. Oh, I'm sure you're right. I'm sure you're right. Anyway, she has a house called Street is beautiful. Yeah, massive.

It is a beautiful house. It's a nice house. It's a nice house. It's a nice house. Yeah.

That's a nice house.

Yeah, honestly, space helps me think.

I think that's a good idea. It's not a nice house. It's not a nice house. It's a nice house. That's actually quite small, but it is a space that helps me.

Some places you're just your fucking best. Some places you're your fucking worst, and that's helpful. I kind of use all of it. I love making music in an anonymous space like a hotel room. And I also love making music in a space where the literal objects and walls have been there

at my worst or my best. But you play with it. I feel like I burn the spaces out, and then I re-enter them, and I'm here in LA. Obviously, you're here. I go back to Electricity.

I'm sitting in my apartment. I go there for a week. I'm on tour. I'm working the hotel. I don't want to be anywhere ever for too long, except with the people I love.

But I get very buzzed out. Cause you're afraid you're gonna run out of the inspiration that's implicit in that space. No, I took, I fucked myself over a young age. I just started moving around, I started touring, I was like 14, 15, and I just think it's like a nurtured thing.

This is what I do. And you're smart in a vault. And you know, like we are very much products of context, so it's like the context keeps shifting, and that's gonna probably promote different points of view for your art and everything else.

I just think it's healthy. Also, if you're like someone who's hard on yourself, it's the beauty of touring. Right? This happened in Cleveland. This is how I felt.

Let's say the show was good. I felt off. Well, tomorrow in Columbus, it's the most literal wiping of this space. Yes, for a different place. There are different people as a different venue, it's all different.

The repetition of starting over every day is very beautiful for me. I've heard a lot of people in my line of work who feel that, too. And there's a danger to that, too. You don't want to become a non-human. Right.

You're just starting over and over. No, Ritz. You don't want to be the type person who's like stay at a hotel near home when you get back from tour. Yeah.

And if you're afraid this it's still. Yeah. That's problematic. It's just a device in my life that I go back to. I look forward to trips.

I think about them. I think about what if I went here and recorded. I have a lot of like hope in that way, and I like to stay there, a lot of people around me feel that way. I like to dream about doing things.

I was watching a 60-minute segment on Ted Turner of sense. Also watch a doc that's pretty bad about him too. Isn't incredible. Incredible. What an interesting character.

But on the 60 minutes one, Jane was talking about what it's like to be married to him. And she said, it's hard because he has a jet in every four days, Ted's like, let's go. And I was like, that's my dream existence. If every four days I could say, let's go, oh, that sounds good.

My happiest is to have no schedule and choose to just go places. Yeah. And my most unhappy is I spend the schedules too rigid.

“But that's why Tor's beautiful because it's scheduled, but you're also just sort of gone.”

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting to integrate into your adult life.

Realizing who you are. That's not going to change. And then realizing which parts of those things work and don't work. And Tor has been a real fun one because I just kind of like just drag everyone with me now. Well, if you were a middle child and you were running out of the house and not coming back

all day, I mean, that's maybe where that stems from, it's like you're having no magic from the get. There was a lot to run away from and a lot to come back to. I don't know. I think I'm a little more free.

I think I used to think it was like a problem. But now I'm surrounded by people who appear to love me through it. Yeah. Okay. What did mom and dad do for a living?

Rick and Shira. Shira. It's a strange name. Shira. Yes.

When I read it, I was like, is it Shira? Or is it Shira? Like if you think I are, yeah, that's what I think.

Gary Davis Jr.

It was a brilliant ride time player and then went to college, they met in college and then

when he graduated college, sounds like a spring stream song, which is what happened. His dad was like, cut your hair, you're coming to work at the shoe factory. And that's what happened. So, Grandpa on the shoe manufacturing facility? Yeah, I called Phoenix Footwear.

Oh, frosted brand. Yeah. This isn't a car accident. His name is Jack Antonov. Oh.

That's how I become. So, you never met him? Never met him. And he looms, looms something about word. That's okay.

It's not bad. It's not bad. The better word for loom, it's more beautiful. Yeah. He hovers.

Buzz is beautifully or, mm-hmm. That's why I like loom. What do I think of loom? I think of like a loom. Because you're thinking of gloom.

“Is that what I think the loom means like, there's an impending like the mother just looms”

or, yeah. Yeah. But like looms large. He clearly was wonderful. He was the head of the family and also died at a bizarre, you know, I've experienced death

on both side shocking and non-shocking. My dad tells the story. Especially, it's like a movie. My mom was a nurse at Holy Name Hospital where I was born. And my dad called my mom when he found out and he said, "Don't go to work.

My dad's there." Mm. I mean, it's so stunning of a life. Yeah. It's crazy.

Yeah. And my mom was like, what? And my story, my parents' story, they're all sort of colored by these big moments of loss. Well, my dad has the shoe factory, they have Rachel, they have me, this is really

in the air. Something happens with the government where you can now just import. I don't know what my dad used the shoe factory story competing with China or wherever else. My dad tells the story, like it was just one day it was over.

Oh, fuck. Yeah. But he's like a business guy. He's gotten involved in different things when we were growing up. He had a company that did carpet cleaning.

We lived a very suburban, normal life, our world was very rich but small. We did things we tried sushi. Yeah. I never went to Europe. I went to Disney World.

Yeah, same. I went to Berlin, didn't Vermont. I didn't.

“But I think anyone in the outside would go like, wow, they're two surviving children.”

One's this incredibly creative and wonderful fashion designer and one's this incredible

musician. I think you're just inherently curious, like, what do you think the quintessential thing they provided for you guys? There's layers that. So the first thing I would say is when our sister died, I noticed this and I won't take

any credit away from my parents. They were very open to us having our passions. But when she died, I was 18, Rachel was 20, they were so disconnected from what mattered. People in my age were like fighting tooth and nail to get into a better college. They were just like, who gives a shit?

I was already cooked at that point because she had been sick. It's really hard to care about things other than what's in your soul when faced with that. Which is actually why it's a really good time to make decisions when you're deep in grief.

It's so clear what matters. When you're in grief, you're not having coffee or something, you don't want to have coffee with it. That's so true. You're not going to see a movie.

You don't want to see it. You're not staying on the phone too long or someone is bothering you. You're not Romanating on some object. You helped to buy. Yeah, you don't care.

But you do care about the jokes. Yeah. You care about the food. It's not everything. Serious.

It just strips away the fog. And so my parents, like you can live it home as long as you want. In my community, I was a fucking loser. So my friends are like going to college and it was that time before the college myth had started to unravel a little bit.

It was also a time when making art and things like that for both Rachel and I, what's your back up plan was everything. Yeah. Well, you're going to suburb. So everyone's pretty much college bound.

Yeah. And the kids who weren't, it wasn't like, do you? It was like, is so and so going to be okay. It's a group of people.

First on my album is really about this breaking the generational pact.

You're ancestral pact. But most of the community I grew up in were people whose parents had a worse and their parents had a worse and their parents had a worse and they arrived at this suburban place where having food on the table, having roof over your head and a good education was the top of existence which by the way, I don't think they're wrong.

But Rachel and I, because of a more born and because of the circumstance, our family both kind of severed that and tried some shit and then both ended up living home until we're like 26, 7. Okay. You're both there for over and over.

Okay. Wonderful. What kind of boy were you? I know you were in a public school for a while. What was those terrible?

It was like the 50s. It was like Bullying Boys? Jocks? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. That's how I grew up. Some of us were gay, some of us were. But we were all like gay. Yeah.

It was so bizarre. I wasn't like, I had a lot of time or anything but I was just sort of like, "Guys, what is up?" Yeah. Yeah.

And it was so apparent to me at that time how kind of weird and repressed other people were, I would want to be like, "Jim, you're gay." And that's great. Yeah.

“You should just, you know, I'm like, "I don't know, I'm like, "Beating the shit out”

of my friends." Right. That was a little miss-vitty outcasty. Well, I was just so into music. The music I was listening to was very fucking serious and I was vegan.

I was political and I was talking about all these things. And I was listening to Papra Gandhi's less talk more rock and shouting, "Meet his murder." Still, believe those things no matter what to with my life is taking those were great educations.

You know, this is very New Jersey story. I was desperate to get out.

But I was, "Yes, it's for him to get out." I was like, "This is a neurotic.

We always make our way back."

You know, Jersey will? Right now. No. But we are in a string right now. We had Charlie Pooth on who was talking about his literature.

And then we just had Tom Pelfrey, I don't know if you watched a task. Did you watch a task? No. The HBO show. It is beautiful actor.

But I'm pretty hip to anything HBO. I think that's like one of the great. If you got to take a gamble, that's a plethora for me. But he's from there and he was just talking about it and then the string scene of it all. The best way to put it.

There's suburban mentality. There's outside the window of the party. You even tell it to the younger brother mentality. There's no place on earth where it's that literal. LA sprawls out, Tokyo, London.

There is New York City packed to the brim, a very small body of water, and then most of the population in Jersey just stares at it. Think about it scientifically. How much literal energy comes up in New York City? Amazing energy.

Turned into sad, ash and sprinkles on the ring Jersey. You are staring at it. Every band is playing there at any night. Everyone's having sex. Everyone's doing drugs.

Every Broadway show. Every bar. Movie stars live there. You are fucking face to face with what you're not. It is so potent.

All the other cities I've been to, and I've been a lot of them, they sort of like subtly sprawl it. It is dead serious. You're not here. You are not there.

Robert and Eros, like a mile free me as the crow throws, but you'll never see

something about you. Maybe once a week, you're the butt of a joke. Maybe. It's like on planes when you're in the seat behind. Just like that.

It's staring. I'm going to take that. So probably everyone has a really healthy, less than ship on their shoulder. You were one of the other. With people who haven't been in New York City in years and live six miles away.

They're like, why would I go there? Yeah, yeah. To get a shitty or Italian meal for twice the price to see any get their gone, like no thanks. Wars pizza.

There's truth to it. But, and then you have people who are enamored with what else is out there in the world. It's like a story book. I mean, it's medieval.

It creates a fire in you that is wonderful and chip-ish. Yeah, yeah. Well, the beauty of it is if you can be there with your cup full, I had no experience with Brooklyn. I went to a friend's house with like a rooftop thing.

And I was like, oh, wow, this is better than living in the city because you actually get to see it.

“You have to see what the poster was and you see the Brooklyn Bridge and then you see”

that and the whole things there. So if you're there and you feel wonderful, it's almost like the most beautiful vantage point of the whole thing. It's where you're telegrapping from. Like, no matter what I do in my life, I'm someone who is cooked in New Jersey.

And I'm telegrapping from what I call the shadow of the city from the outside. You hear it in the music. I meet kids who grew up in the city. They're just like, so they don't have anything to prove. They saw it all.

They did it all. And that's why they developed around south of the way they do it. That's why the strokes sounded that way. Music and your soul is telegrapping from you can't ever get it out of you. And I always wanted to talk about it.

But in my early years, I had way more like New York was exploding when I started playing music. You go in the city and go to the Mercury lounge and it was every label, every band, it was fucking happening. And it wasn't because we were there.

It was. I'm, you know, 99, 2000 downtown was one of the great moments that I moved to Brooklyn. And I was always right outside of it. And it was beautiful and sad like being from New Jersey. All right.

I want to, because I have some theory about you based on nothing other than reading about you. Jewish. Jewish. Jewish.

You're not Jewish. Your whole thing is a big fucking power. I will say when I see the amazing success you've had, working specifically with female artists.

“I think, yeah, he got trained great as a younger brother by an older sister.”

I just, oh, you have some sense that you're comfortable with someone being older and a little bit dominant and you're not threatened by it and you know how to work with it. Oh, for sure. Rachel's, my parents will hate hearing this. My parents raised me great.

Rachel also raised me in a different way that was very lucky. Yeah. Rachel always says like, I love my parents not shedding on them and they will definitely listen to this. Rachel always jokes you know, when I came into the world, I was just like, so I guess this

is normalcy and when I came into the world, Rachel was like, this is weird. You know, she was like, telegraphing to me like, hey, it's weird here. Don't worry. Don't worry. I see you.

Yeah. A lot of weird stuff happening. Yeah. The moment my brother and I would always have like, we'd look at you. This is nuts, right?

Yes. Okay. Good. But as long as you know, it's nuts and I know it's. Then we can go.

Yeah. I had the luxury of having that telepathy right away where she was three and I was one. She was just like, they're weird. They do weird shit. Yes.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Do I send a mental value? The movie.

I fucking haven't yet. But as one of those movies where it's just like everyone who I love is like, you'll love this movie. Yes.

You basically just said the most important scene in the movie.

Oh, really? It's the older sister and younger sister. And she's the difference between our childhood. Is that I had you? Oh, I see Rachel is on the front line.

Yeah. You know, like, I'm charming, normally coming out of the boat and bulls are flying there.

“And I'm like nine shifts behind me and like, you guys are going to clean it up?”

Yeah. And then we'll come in and just sort of like, poke at the bodies.

I'm going to go on the beach. Someone said that. I don't know. Stay tuned for our share expert if you dare. We are supported by all state checking all state first could save you hundreds on current

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Potential savings very subject to terms conditions and availability all state North American insurance, co and affiliates North Brook, Illinois. Well, this daughter syndrome is real wild, Rachel carries it all. I'm more transient because I've been luxury to be so yeah.

Okay, when do you start playing music kind of always dad taught you had to play guitar

as a president. This is somewhat he would play to us. I always always pick it up and bang on a piano, it got serious around like 12 13. But I just always did it.

“And a lot of time alone in your room, that's what we were doing my whole life.”

It made me feel seen in a way that I didn't feel anywhere else. And then when I started writing music, which is around 12 13, I felt for black of a better word, like I could feel myself in a way that I hadn't ever before control. Yeah, but also it's a very out of control thing. But just more a bit like how I hear people talk about God and religion.

I just believed in it with zero cynicism. There was no edges, it was pure belief, I feel that way to this day. But like communication, I was shy in some places kind of when I was growing up. And when I was writing music or making music, I felt like I was communicating with myself. And then an imaginary person who got me, I felt a life right around that everything

else in my life really stopped. Do you think though that it was a medicine that without it you would have been in a much war state? Oh, I think I'd be dead. I had all these weird tins.

I was just a collector. I was kind of like a baseball card collection and then like a stamp collection. Just give tins. A lot of text. You know, I had to do this or everyone would die.

I still have that. I tried to keep it in check. And I go back and forth on it because like on one hand, it's bullshit, but then no, it's sort of also like one's religion as long as you can put it in a good place that is nice to imagine yourself at the way I move someone you're praying to.

But once I found music that was it, well, it's interesting when I look back, because my work just different size to it, but it's kind of one thing.

And I'm always sort of asked to explain it and I always just go back to the beginning.

Yeah, always loved writing and singing. I always loved performing and then I always loved helping my friends with their music. And away my life is no different. It's just, you know, the hotel rooms are obviously nicer and I get to be in studios and stuff. But it's that thing and the community around it, my biggest anxiety is I was always worried

so I was going to like quit the band. Which was really hard back then because a lot of people didn't music for fun and I was so serious. Gee, thinking stressed other people out around. I think so.

Yeah. If I give them relax, you used to drive me crazy whenever everyone talked about their plans. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

I still have that a little bit. Really?

“When Dax will talk about the future and his future, it's like, well, what about this now?”

Why are you thinking about that? I love a no one leaves packed. Yeah. I have my band now, I have my partner, my family. That comes to the family.

No matter what the fuck is going on in my family and not everyone has this is like, you don't leave. You work it out and I didn't realize how precious that was until I saw other people's family. Some people leave.

Mm-hmm. Now, the most unappealing trait of yours is New York School I've ever heard is the one you went to, which is professional children school. Yeah. Rachel says it sounds like tiny lawyers, right?

Yes. It sounds terrible. Tell me what is the professional children's school because it becomes your gateway to Manhattan. Yeah.

So it was a public school in Jersey. And then Rachel was in the musical theater and she found this place where you could go and it was for like ballerinas and people in theater. I went from a Jersey public school wherever one would say gay slurs to me, which was strange to a school where I was the only straight kid.

Yeah. The beautiful place. Yeah.

“The point of the place, I think it was made for the ballet dancers, was it to give”

you time to do your thing and I was starting a tour. But I used it as a way out. And like I said, my sister was sick and I convinced my parents because they were just sort of like, yeah, sure. Is that going to make you happy?

Nothing matters. And we have a lot on our place. Yeah. So if you could figure something out for yourself. And that was a beautiful time.

It saved my life in the sense that I think I had more fear, chip rage about the things I want to do in my life because everyone was articulating to me why it wouldn't work out. Which is a terrible thing we do to artists and is not even the truth. There's a lot of work in the field. Ironically as recent history has shown, you might be better off wanting to do something

and recorded music than being a lawyer at this point. Yeah. Yeah.

I could do a billion years on that alone.

But I got there and I just was surrounded by people who weren't afraid of their

And embarrassing to have dreams and aspirations.

Yeah. There's a lot of rage when you declare that you want to do something. Why would you believe in yourself? I don't believe in America. But in other countries, being a singer or being an actor, being a theater, playing music,

the government deems it important enough to subsidize. Right. So it's not. Fuck you. You want to go play music.

Well, I got to work this job. It's like cool. And I love doing this. I'm a teacher in America. There's this sense.

And it cuts in different ways.

“I always say when you go see a band in a club or a bar, right?”

No one's going to work for free. See the bartenders and go for free. The secured doesn't go for free. The band goes for free. I was taught to eat shit because I was so lucky to be there.

And I have so many different feelings about that now. And it's interesting when you tour the world and you see how art is treated in different places. But yeah, there's a lot of that.

There's a lot of, oh, you want to do this.

Well, then you better fucking get your ass kicked out there. It's a badge of honor, but it's also like, that was heavy. Yeah. But I think what's going on underneath is I'm afraid to pursue the thing I want to pursue you somehow have this confidence that you don't deserve.

And I'd be delighted if you failed to confirm that I shouldn't have tried. I'm totally sympathetic to that. It's scary to try. When I was 15 hours in bands, the kids in the house were like, fuck you. Why don't you come to do the shit we do?

You think you're better than this? When I was 18, all my friends were getting into college and I was still in the van. They were like, hey, don't. When I'm 21 and they're realizing that maybe college isn't going to lead to their dream job.

And I'm still in the van. They're like, good for you, man. I'm cool again. And they can pay their rent and I'm living at home, still in the van. It's like, how do you doing, man?

Like, it goes in and out. But you do make that deal, you don't. You're not going to get anywhere, toying with what else you could do in anything. And life, you just have to make that deal and live by it.

“Well, I think this is an adorable chapter.”

So I guess 15 when you're at the school professional children school.

You form your first man or maybe wasn't your first man, but outline with friends

from elementary school. Yeah, and then you figure out how to tour. This is a part of the story that gets glossed over, I think. Ambition is very required. This is such an ambitious thing.

We had a book called Book Your Own Fucking Life. We was a book that went around and had all the phone numbers of the local promoters in the scene. And that's me and my friend Evan, who was another brand called random task. We did the door together.

I think they got from Austin Powers. But we sat down and we called him and said, hey, can we come play and Austin on this day? This is the Bill Gates part. It's like you get a job designing this water and power program at 15, like you're calling around businesses.

We thought it was a fucking honor to go on a tour. We weren't like, are we going to play to anyone? Is it going to be worth it? We just all saved up a bunch of money. All the bands that we went on this tour and we slept in rest stops and we absolutely

fucking loved it. It was freedom. And you're in your mom's mini van? My band bar and my mom's mini van. One member could drive and did all the driving.

This is a door. I couldn't drive. I didn't even think of this. Mom's van, but he can't drive. It was crazy.

It was so dangerous like the panhandle and flared it. It's just wild. It could have happened. Also, I'm going to get pulled over and that cop. So it went like, there's an 18 year old in the 15 year old in the 14 year old.

Yeah. They all had drugs. They all looked like they're nine. Before you guys. You must have loved one of me.

I loved weed. Drinking wasn't that big a part of my culture. But I fucked myself up. I don't want to jump ahead. But how do grief?

I took a bunch of acid, pencil line out. I want to get better painted at the acid test and ruin myself. And it really changed my relationship to get and fucked up forever. I got burned out. Quick.

What age was that? 20, 20, 20. Yeah, somewhere in there. Maybe that's a gift. I didn't come back for a while.

It was terrible. Okay. I don't even like talking about it. Oh, God. Wow, horrible.

Sorry, anyone listening. Pro acid. Don't. Not for acid. I'm happy for those people.

I'm sorry to the people who I'm triggering because they had that bad travel. I see. I see. Because I can go there. I just lost my sister.

I'm with the band. We're like out on the road and we just got some acid and we're like, let's just eat all of it. It was a different time. No, it wasn't guided.

No, it wasn't guided. No integration afterwards. It was really hard for me. Called a family friend who was a doctor and I was like, I did this. I'm not okay.

I actually weren't that helpful. They were like, well, it can change your brain chemistry. Oh, great. Just what you want to hear when you're convinced this trip is going to last forever. But I did, I say, because a lot of my friends got real fucked up under exactly

that. And I was scared straight. Yeah, I was just trying to like hang on to my sanity without it all. Okay. So that band goes on.

There's a lot of different folks while touring and the next band is fun. No, steel train. Steel train. I'm so sorry. I was a band in between.

And steel train, you convinced two people to drop out of college. Yeah. Yeah.

“How do we go from outline to steel train and is there any band break up sadness there?”

We've all easy transition. They were easiest because I feel like a lot of my life. I was surrounded by people who were naturally moving into a different phase and I was just on the same track. And then I think I attracted people who still train toward for like a decade.

There is no more legitimate band on the road story who would go out and tour 200 or 250 days a year and we played at 10 people and we played at 20 people and we played at 50 people. 75 people. You're doing 200 a year for 10 years?

We were just gone.

“This is like the Beatles and the German brothel story.”

Yeah, we were gone. We lived on the road. All we did. All we did was tour. Still in the van?

Oh. Okay. That van really.

Not even close to the bus.

Very good at it. You figure out all the hacks of how to get a good hotel for less money. You pull up and you say we're a church group. Don't you kind of miss that time? I miss it with every fire of my being and don't want to go back to it at the same time.

I'm more in awe that it happened. It's nice when there's facts of your life that show is I could do your work. We just want to be there. Yeah. Yeah.

The beautiful though. And it was right before it all got really complicated in music. All we could do was play. I hold no judgment over anyone right now, but it got complicated. And all we could do at that time was just go and convince people to let us play.

I can give this band to let's open for them. Tell all the fucking press and TV shows that were there at a moment's notice. Someone cancels. We get to play Conan. It's a big break.

I see it like the gas tank. For me, I was cooked. I was just going to stay. But like everyone else, like just when it's like we're not making any money this sucks. We get a slot early on at a festival.

Buy us another six months. Yeah. We get to play Conan. My grandmother's like, oh. Yeah.

These things fill the tank back up and you're approached by two dudes for fun at this point. Well, we had all toured together. You had all toured together.

“I think the three of us recognized life Ernest, right?”

Like each other three hell or high water were not deviating from this. Yeah. That was cypherotic. We started before or fun. Okay.

So from the time you form fun is that 2012 earlier maybe 10. Okay. When is the hit song drop? Is that 12? 14.

I think somewhere. Probably popular song. We are young. Do you remember that thing you do? Yes.

That movie. It felt like that hearing is off on the radio. Like all these things that I thought were not only impossibilities, they were so off my radar. I was so disenfranchised from the mainstream.

I thought my path was like, I just looked at your resigned spoon or will go and just strictly wanted to just play, find my audience and play to them forever.

I never thought about being cast out in that big a net.

You know, it's easy to talk about all like the shame and intensity here in Iowa and your cousin comes to show and there's no one there. This is obviously all those feelings. And Karen today is like, get into them. But truthfully, we were that shit like armor man.

We were like, we are fucking here. No one's paying us to be here. No one's asking us to be here. This is something like American idol shit where we have a panel of judges. You know, it's a group of people who no one said, oh my God, you're amazing.

We played music that we felt like we had to make. Opposite of talent show music as I like to call it. Which is a lot of my fear of bands. It's like you can't really pinpoint exactly. And we would roll up and play to fucking no one and load our gear and play to the fork.

Fuck yeah, no one likes us. Yeah, we would love when people came, but we were so empowered by how much it meant us. Yeah, wasn't for approval. You didn't make it for the approval. So then when it was on the radio, were you embarrassed?

I was stressed because I spent my life doing what I do, which is really about my lyrics more than anything. And then I had joined this band for fun and they weren't my words and it got really big and I really forgave that crisis. Oh yeah, I started working all night.

I also didn't like the idea of having to play we are young forever. It wasn't my song. It was my lyrics. It hurt a little bit. Well, it was weird because I was getting everything I wanted that you felt like it wasn't yours.

Me and so I just went and did my thing. You do bleachers as a solo project in hotel rooms as you're touring with fun with this huge hit. It helped. You had money now.

Maybe less than you'd think because of how it all works.

“But I remember that first year starting to be like, oh my god, maybe I could get an apartment.”

Also when you tour with fun, you're presumably sleeping in a pre-vose. Yep. That would be a fucking titties. But all complicated didn't feel right. Well, I'll tell you what happened.

I felt so unseen because I communicated so much in my life to my lyrics that I wrote the

first bleachers song, which is called I want to get better, which could not be more of

a cliff notes in my whole fucking life. I was too upset to agree with my reaction that was like, I'm going to write a song and start a band that completely sifts out anyone who doesn't completely understand who I am. So that first album is so abrasively confessional. But it's cool.

It's neat to get something and realize that it's not, we did a number one song and it was really cool. I'm not minimizing it, but I didn't sleep better at night. I actually was just sort of thinking about my lyrics and what I wanted to do and how I wanted to play and felt a little bit like I was getting pulled.

Do you feel like you're getting offered kind of like the golden handcuffs? It's like, oh, this could be a trap and it's unsatisfying for sure. And also to be uninvited for so long and then to be invited, it makes decision making very hard. I've had this at many different points of my career.

So when that first happens, we got to go to Germany do this thing. Now we go to Japan. We just got this thing. Your humanity is gone because you're just gone and it's a really beautiful lesson when you learn it that there's something you want to do or there's something you want to say

and you do it and when you do it, you do it, because you do it, do it, do it, do it. When people start to fuck with it, even on the surgery, people start asking you to do

want to do that. I don't want to do that.

“But in your freight, if you don't do that, there'll be nothing else ever again.”

This is the last thing anyone's going to offer.

And until you get your group of people around you right, which it wasn't at the time, you're getting weird advice. Yeah. A lot of new people enter a lot of new people, and they've done it before and you're hard to take it from a label, there's all kinds of stuff happening.

And you have this gut that is so clear, which by the way, it's so simple. Don't do anything that you're not excited to do. It's so simple. If something feels a little cheesy, it's very cheesy. Yeah.

If something feels like not you, it's not fucking you. It kind of is that pure. And then there's ways of doing things that aren't necessarily you, but you do it your way. Yeah. It's cool.

It's a tough time as music bursting out of me and feeling like it was being quieted by the success of something else. Very strange, guilty. Very strange. That is a bizarre.

There's our feelings. Yeah. We feel bad about feeling bad. But yeah, I've had this a few times in my life where sort of people like, wow, that must be the best.

And it's sort of like, well, no, actually, it wasn't. It was really hard and complicated because that wasn't my goal. We've talked about this with several actors. The one that comes to mind right now is Wednesday. Jenna Ortega and I can so empathize with her, which is like, she has this moment of enormous

opportunity and everyone around her.

“It's such an exciting thing and they're saying, you must be so happy.”

And then when so many people are telling you, you must be so happy, which isn't a real thing. They're just projecting all over you. They're just saying, you got something that I've heard is, yes, it's beautiful what they're saying.

Yeah. They're excited for you. But no one's ever like, how you feeling? Right. Are you scared?

That's a hard because then you're afraid if you're honest with people, you will appear to be ungrateful. And so now you're kind of locked in. You get isolated by this dissonance of everyone thinks I should be feeling so good. And I'm not what's going on in my broken.

But you are, you are. I mean, don't make people feel bad, but the spectrum of ungrateful. That's a game you could play forever. One person seems ungrateful compared to someone else. You are living your life.

And you know when something good is happened, but you also know that you will die and there are things you want to do with your time, it's now yours to lose, which is stressful. It's very stressful.

And I've always been super in touch with that.

And it's weird when you do a thing that everyone thinks is for everyone else. But it actually isn't. This is something I run into all the time, especially in my work with pop music. This is not a service industry in any way. And because everyone sees it or hears it, they think that it's made for their

pleasure, and it's really not in the mean way. It's really not music is made because you feel compelled to articulate something because you're a little bit of an anguish if you can't get that thing out in the way you want it out. Yeah, you're feeling and you feel crazy because you can't say it, you can't sing it. But you hear it.

And you spend all your time turning it into something reductive, but literally that you can press play on. Yeah, yeah. And then you want to take it out and celebrate it. And then sometimes people love it or not.

But the act of releasing it, even just now, me talking, putting out an album, you're chucking messages in the bottle out in the world. You're not looking for everyone just like in high school. It's like, where's that one kid? Something about them, I'm like, oh, my person.

That's it. And when you do something that is public, there can be this sense from people that you're doing it to please the people that the puzzling you were trying to crack was how do I get all these people to like it? But that was the puzzle.

How do you try to crack? Like, if you fucking cut me open, what would the music sound like? Everything you write is the last thing you'll ever write until you do it again.

“And you have to do it in a different way.”

The uncomfortable truth for people who do work like this is that it does dry up. We don't like to talk about it. But very few, you either die, dries up or you're a total unicorn. So I've been in a phase recently where I'm very surprised every time the feeling keeps coming. But I don't take it for granted.

I don't sit there and think, yeah, this is what I'll do. You're dropping a bucket of no well and you're like, what day will the well be dry? The image of my head is a little net. Yeah.

Oh, catching. Marcus Montfort said the exact same thing. Or I think it was him. Yeah, yeah. You're doing a butterfly trick.

You're trying to catch butterflies. Yeah, like, I could write a song, but who cares? I'm trying to write that song.

And I would never, when I'm producing a record, I could make it something, who cares?

It's like, we're after something so specific and you just know it when you have it. But so weird to me when people get in like arguments over music, it's like, so obvious. When you're going this way or not. But it's really maddening and I think it can drive you fucking crazy. I'm in a phase now of feeling really grateful for it that I like do something that I can't

control. Makes me feel like there's a mysticism to it. But I wouldn't name names, but I look up and I look at some people and I'm like, where to go? When will it leave me?

Sure. Perfect. Yeah, yeah. How do you come across Taylor's radar? Is it from fun or in the best ways?

It was from fun, but we met in Germany. I love it. I love it. I love it.

I love it. I love it. I love it. Which is when it went number two. Yeah.

In the world. It's all based on what happens. Yeah. I do. I wouldn't be so good.

“I would be that had the great slogan about number two.”

It was the Heinz ketchup. It was a movie where it was number two and that ain't bad or something. Probably crazy people, the Dudley Moore, where he's an ad executive and Volk was a Nazi but good, and that's in a rom-com where there's a thing that's number two in the world. We're going to have to find it for the fact check.

Yeah. Someone listening is like, oh, that sounds punching their dashboard. We're in Germany. We meet a thing in quite quickly. We get talking about jazz or as in Germany, called Yazoo, a song called Only You.

Do you know song? No. Well, seeing it. All I need it was the love of you gay. Yes.

We all needed for another day. Beautiful. All I ever knew from you for a big song. Perfect song. It does that thing.

You could weep to it. You could dance to it. You could drink to it. I could cry talking about it. Yeah.

Did you do it? It's all the beautiful sort of like sad. It is so good.

So she's about to, you know, first time we worked together was on the making in 1989.

So we were just kind of humming on this thing together. Somehow we got talking about it. I'm about to make the first bleachers album, which really has that tone and we just stayed in touch. And then we started listening some music.

And all the stories of my collaborations are just very simple. You meet. You see the same thing. You hear the same thing and then you chase it together. I'm really reducing a huge thing that's a mountain and there's great stories about

that mountain or anything I've done. But truly what it is is like you have a feeling. So when we first met, whether we were talking about it openly or not, we were basically being like, man, yeah, that shit's great. Bring it back, but that feeling of sort of like the sadness of synthetic sounds, hearing

someone fight their emotional way through the machine. It's pop. That's something. I think Alzamari is voice. I mean, it has that thing that all the greats do.

It's so listenable and beautiful and so fucking painful. Yeah. You know, maybe the greatest version ever of that is Nina Simone where it's just both things are happening once. So we're humming on this thing without knowing what we're talking about it at the moment.

It's simple. I love this song. Oh, cool.

Here's my working on here's what I'm working on.

“You should mess with something, send your tracks.”

So it's all done through computer at first. When you say sending stuff, it's just like sending channels like, how does it become official? It becomes official in a very simple way. Okay. So at this point, like I said, I had to collaborate in my whole life, but maybe like some

doors are opening. I'm starting to write with people and do that because fun at that hit. And I would inevitably get to this point when I would work on a song where someone where they'd be like, okay, now we're going to have a producer do it and I'd be like, well, I'm producing like totally what are you producing.

I'm like, all my friends records and it's like, bye. Can you tell us like in a literal sense what the producers doing? Well, there's many things. So the line between production and engineering is a very blurry run. The most simple way I could describe producing is what will it sound like?

What Alfred will aware are the drums like this as an orchestra come in. George Martin, maybe the greatest producer of all time, wasn't playing the strings, but he was saying, well, what if the strings come in here and then what if we play them backwards? The idea is, I happened to also be an engineer, which is a different craft. They meet often.

What a short cut instead of trying to articulate something to someone else operating. You can do it and quickly figure out, no, that's not right. I like to search. And so at that time, because I was loving, you as you in a racer and Robin had put out body talk and kind of changed everything.

And you know, I bought this keyboard that was called Juno 6, which at the time was like $700, which is little now. But you know, I got it and a lot of my favorite things come from not knowing something great. If I play a lot of like tello now or instruments, I'm not really acquainted with, because you find things without all the knowledge of what you're doing.

Something messing around on this thing, I'm just starting to make things. And so I was just making tracks that would become the first bleachers album and would become the first work I did with Taylor. It just all came from joy and a new soundscape. But that's like any time I make an album or collaborate with someone.

You have a feeling, but you don't admit it. The feeling is, what if we did the most incredible thing ever together? You know, what if we got together and did something where one plus two equal to million? But you got to go on with some armor. You got to say like, oh, like, check out this out.

What? We got to go. You know, when you're at the bar and you're playing the game, it's like two pictures of the same. It's like two pictures of you.

And then one of them is, no, you're coming up on the high score. Yeah. And right in that moment, you get very quiet. And when you beat the high score, you don't jump up and scream. You just keep going.

I always think about that when I'm making records.

It's like, we don't sit around and be like, oh my god, that's it. Everyone knows something's happening. Yeah. And you just keep going. Do you think there's a huge undercurrent of like, we could jinx any of this at any moment?

It's a bit more because you're the only one. Yeah. Not good. Like, we will. Yeah.

“That's why in my room, at this point, like in the past, you know, this is when”

you let someone hear something, it would just die from someone else's gaze. I learned that from Taylor too. I'm going to ruin then one of your songs. What do you mean? What do you mean?

What do you mean? What do you mean? What do you mean?

My gaze is going to be so popular.

Should I wait?

“That only you see, and someone's like, what's that?”

Yeah. Or like, yeah. I would just walk out there and just fly off the roof. Yeah. It's like why people don't tell other people what they're going to name their kid, because

you're going to hear. Oh, that's nice. Like, well, I can't name it that now. What is that? What are you looking for?

You're looking for validation. There's nothing good that comes from even if someone's like, you're the greatest to ever do it. What does that do for you? It's such a personal process and I definitely learned that early on from Taylor and

then early on from when I just really started writing the bleachers stuff of like, I know what this is. Well, so to finish the story, we made those shoe songs that we didn't end up being on a 1989. And I was waiting for her to be like, and now someone's so big shots going to produce it.

And she was like, so when should we send it to mix?

So she was the first person to believe in me as a producer.

It was obviously monumental cosine, but it takes that. It takes a person to hear something.

“And you have to remember at that time, she landed the plane so well, but making 1989”

is a very strange move. There's a lot of people on the inside that were like, this isn't going to work. Right. Everyone's going to be bummed about this. This is not that.

You can lose all these fans. And we did that a few times. Then we made a reputation. And then, frankly, it goes on and on and on and everything is so high stakes to me. I feel like I love that moment where like, this is going to land or fucking not land, but

we are just going for it. Yeah. Yeah. You're aiming for the fans. Yeah.

Stay tuned for more armchair experts. If you dare. What do you think it is about both of your symmetry that comes together? I don't want to tempt you to jinx everything, but just are you able to identify what it is about each other that produces this kind of harmony?

We're great friends, which is a beautiful thing, but that's not where necessarily comes from. We have this third brain. So, it's really weird collaboration because it has nothing to do with anything you want. It just is or isn't.

You can make something with someone else or you can't. And if you can't and you try, you are going to make something so bad. I got to imagine two like hyper-towns of people that like each other and are convinced that these two towns combine, you can only imagine the exponential explosion. And then, yeah, the frustration is that magic's not.

That means why we've had such a drug of poor super groups.

One plus one, rarely equals two, let alone a million, usually equals like 0.7.

That's so true.

“A question I always get is, who do you want to collaborate with?”

And I'm not even being like cute about it, I'm like, I have no fucking idea. All of my collaborations have taken me by surprise in wild ways. Is Lord next after the success of that, presumably people start reaching out to you? First, bleachers album and then we quickly get to work on melodrama and the St. Vincent album mass production.

It's not like something needs to come out and then everyone, you know, people start to understand me. I have some songs that people heard that I had co-written. And then I started to have stuff that was my production, too. And it was coming from such a different place because at that time I was really buzzing on

this big sad kind of John Hughesy feeling, which wasn't really alive in the mainstream yet. It was just where I was at. So yeah, for people who don't know, John Hughes is breakfast club, he's playing strains and on. We'll be able to say it almost fire.

16 times. 16 times, anything? Uncle Bok. Uncle Bok so good. Is that just nothing left for Grissel and Fat?

No, that's the great opportunity. No, that's the great opportunity. He's going to be saying, there's nothing left for Grissel and Fat in my head like four fucking times. I say that.

My friend reminded me of Justice for Harambe and now I say Justice for Harambe a lot, which was their tick. They say Justice for Harambe a lot in their head, but nothing left for Grissel and Fat. Do you know what talking about the scene? I've never seen it.

John Candy has to eat an entire steak. It's called the old 96 or if you eat the whole thing, you get it for free and they put your picture on the wall. It's the whole thing. Oh.

And he goes, I'm done. And then the guy goes, "No, you're not." And John Candy looks up and goes, "There's nothing left." And then the guy give him a look and then he eats the Grissel and Fat. Oh.

And that isn't my head or music. But John, he is at this beautiful signature heart and everything. He's not cynical. The act of making things, touring, making music, it's such a hopeful act. I don't think Lou Reed is cynical.

I don't think Leonard Cohen is cynical. Like, I don't think it's possible. The barrier of entry have to do the thing to put it out, to be there. I love the subversion. I love playing with things and music that does that.

But the beauty of this is it's so un-synical. That's why I love playing live so much. You cannot go to a show, cynically. It's not possible. If you did it, you would just get eaten up by the sincerity at the show.

So many things in this moment are lives happen cynically. Most forms of communication are what plays is just the cynical. When you get to a show, you're not leaving your fucking house. You're not paying money, you're not going through all this stuff, getting in the car, to go somewhere, not even treated that well because of how the Constitution is going.

We get into that later, to get into that room, it's like church. And what we do is so un-synical. And then the world is so cynical that they can smash together in this funny way. Yeah. Feel the way about movies, too.

It's too much work. No, no. You're almost done it. It doesn't work. It just doesn't play.

But it's like they're also not.

“They're protecting themselves with the cynicism, but the act of making something is vulnerable.”

It's so fucking hopeful. Yeah. Even I know so many people who are like, "Oh, this is dog shit, but then you get talking to them." Something there.

Just leave it that. The cynicism is when pulp fiction comes out and it's such an enormous hit that people try to make it as a cash grab. And there's nine movies all of a sudden that are trying to be too late. Oh, Thanos.

So he's cynical as well. Yeah. That's the one truth. Exactly. But the court leaders are not.

We're going to put a lot of money behind something, and we have no way of knowing what's going to work. And if they could just admit it, everyone would be so much happier. And then accept it. Yeah.

Because hence collaboration.

Those one plus one is never, we get to the end of every year.

The best albums, the best movies, all the best work. It just fucking was. Yeah. And then there's these very little math. Yeah.

These things that get smashed together, it's fuel. The only math that works is like IP and it's why movie goers are a little bit cynical in general because the math does work. I have a friend who says, give me a movie quote from the past 10 years. And everyone goes, uh, but you go back further, it's like, you know, show me the money.

Exactly. That's scary actually. It's an interesting point. My curiosity is you've had such success with so many of these artists. And I do wonder, is that something you think is part of your skill set that you, and it's

hard to say yes or no, because it sounds ego maniacal, but is there something about you that brings out some confidence in these artists? I guess you hold on to a math. Yeah. Well, obviously.

I'm really dead serious about it. So I can meet people there and I also feel met there. I mean, there's different ways of doing it. There's the path of more fear-based, like I have the sauce, which I think is ridiculous. But I think when you decide to take a journey with someone is really powerful.

I always feel the analogy like flying a plane.

We see something we're going somewhere, and then we're going to do it.

“That's how great work is made is like there's a North Star in the room, everyone's chasing”

it. Not to simplify something complicated, but I think bad work is made in collaboration with people who have different North stars and they're yanking each other in different directions. And then it kind of has no soul to it because it's all spread across something. But yeah, maybe, I mean, hopefully.

Okay. So just to run through because it's really bonkers, and the list has to be said just so that I can then ask the next question, which is 13 Grammys, but Taylor Swift 2014 Grammys album of the year, then lords Melodrama, then Lover, then Del Ray's Norman Fucking Rock, what?

Then folk war, then did you know there's a tunnel under Ocean Boulevard Del Ray, then midnight, then torture post department, and then short and sweet, which here's where I really drop in. I am obsessed with that album, my daughter introduced me to her and I can't believe I'll great that album.

It's just every single song is fantastic. I love it so much. One quick question, when you're there at the Grammys and you have multiple album of the year nominations, that's happened before, right? There's a couple albums.

That's true. What do you root for? You don't have to say which? Is there one? No, exactly what you think.

It's like, this is crazy. Yeah. It will cancel myself out. I try to take all that shit as just encouragement. I try to take it two ways, because I've noticed that it brings up a lot for people.

I try to take it as encouragement and a moment to be with my family. You know, we don't look back often.

“My life is so forward, moving I'm on tour the next city, the next song, the next thing”

I'm so focused on what I'm doing next, that any time we get to go to those things, my dad will cry and we'll talk about the old days and all that's so sweet. I like to try to access things at their best because otherwise it brings up a lot. Because looking back, I assume, is too hard because there's so much pain. There's pain and else you still do it often.

I don't make a lot of space for it, not like a big reminiscer. Yeah. Again, you might jinx everything. If you're doing knowledge, how successful you've been in my go away. Is there any anxiety about it or tension with it?

Oh, sure. Yeah. It feels, yeah. First again, back to the general or take of things like you would think anyone who collaborated on that many hits in a row must be flying high, but I can also imagine it constantly being

met with them and what do I do next or does it go away or any of those feelings? Yeah. Things coming go. I think the most potent one I deal with is the feeling of being known or perceived in a way can be beautiful and also you can feel like a version of yourself is being put

on you on the bleachers record on this new one. I really got into like my audience story and I think the reason why I was so compelled to do that was because I feel like not in a bad way, but it all gets rewritten and it's weird. You lost your agency. Yeah.

Like having any digital footprint or public information about you kind of becomes law or becomes viable and that's great. That's really neat.

All the things you just read, amazing.

My soul is in all that stuff, but then there can also be this feeling of you're just yourself and that feeling slightly ghostly in a way and it's a weird twist because I'm also like extremely private.

But then I put so much into the music and share so much that you'd have the impression

you know everything about me, which would be fair. For most time it's like once I'm done with it, it's yours and you can hear me sort of stammering around it.

“Like it's just a not thing and I think it is actually getting better, but I think it was”

really odd in the past couple of years, but I think now there might be more grace towards artists and accepting the idea that part of the work is playing with their own hypocrisy and that the rage you have at your senator might not be for your artist. Right. Exactly.

Celebrities gotten nuts in the past few years. Well, I changed. Yeah, some people have done some weird S shit and also the world has gotten to a weird place and you just put it all together and I think everyone's really looking for some answers, but when I'm just sitting there writing, I'm not thinking about any of that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's complicated. Okay. And I promise you, I'm going to do a real nice chunk on everyone for ten minutes. We're not.

You do the last question I kind of have about your co-writing and your producing is, I want to know, how does Kendrick Lamar come into the picture? For me, I would be like, I've established ways of his network really, really well with these female artists and it's a very specific thing. And if I were invited in to work with a rapper from South Center, I might have a little

bit of imposter syndrome or just fear of like, oh, my going to be the widest, nerdy ist person, this guy's ever met. Like, what kind of feelings did you have? I just am so focused on the soul of what is happening. And that's bigger.

That's just articulating feeling, what someone or group people sound like at any moment in time. So everything beyond that to me is secondary, whether it's genre or personality or age, gender, all of it's all so separate. Because I boiled all down to there's people in this room, we're all hearing a thing.

And like I said, we're trying to literally make it a reality and not just like a conversation or a feeling. So I feel bizarrely comfortable in any situation where that's the goal. And did you meet him somewhere and start having a chat about jazz? No, no, though, I have a band with a guy named Soundwave and a guy named Sam Doe.

Wave grew up with Kendrick and his produced all his albums. And they were up. So there's electric lady one day. I was downstairs working at something and wave texted me. He's like, come upstairs and mess around.

Go upstairs. Start playing some chords. Didn't leave for three years. And that's often how it happens. It's like love.

There's just chemistry. It becomes like a secret world.

“That's what I feel like my collaborations are.”

And no, it's no different than what it was with that album already. I'm sort of like, you find something. And then you go apart and you come together and you visit and you build on it. It's just a giant secret. No one knows what's happening.

No one knows what you're thinking or you're feeling, what it's sounding like. And then one day, boom. It's just out. It's wild. I love it.

I love that wild anxiety. It's something coming out. But I have these securities. And I guess I might be intimidated by Kendrick. I don't feel very intimidated by anyone who is pursuing music.

Yeah. It's like we're all grabbing at something. And all the greatest people I've ever worked with. And a lot of the people you're naming, I truly believe to be the greatest of all time. Me and that exact place, we're just all grabbing at something.

I would never name names, but the least inspiring people I've ever met are the ones who

say they know how to do it. Because it's like, oh, do you? Go do it. And it's often like a lot of things in life that the people who can explain exactly how to do it, how they're going to do it, and why you're wrong.

And they're right. Are really making up for something. And then you spend time with people who are known as the absolute top of their craft.

“And we're all having the same conversation, which is just like, what if?”

What if? You're comfortable in the uncertainty. It's all uncertainty. Yeah. And then knowing when it's done is pure certainty.

I also don't understand why people tinker forever. It's like, once you hear it, it's like, all you want to do is back up the drive and put it helmet on it. It's like, you want to protect it. You want to put it in that fucking thing and beauty in the beast.

The roses in. It's such a protected space. You know, then if I, like, go hang out with people, I'm like, oh, yeah, I forgot. The world sees you. Yeah, you almost got to go somewhere.

When you're my friend from the studio, we like feed them through other people's lives. Bang on things to try to find new sounds. Yeah, it's got to be so weird for you to see the way people are around Taylor or thoughts around her, the fainting. Like, she's your buddy.

I mean, it'd be like if that was happening with you, which, what does that mean? It does. Is that real right there? I carry smelling salts with me. Oh, okay.

Frequently. Very nice. He's like, I just, I'm just a person. Yes, and no, but also I do see all this is magic. I'm like right there.

I don't know. There's so many people in my life, different artists who I've had that relationship to not knowing them, but they very deeply got me through a period of time, saved my life in many ways. So I'm just not casual, but I mean, when someone has a wild feeling about someone else,

I'm never like, oh, they're just a person.

I'm like, yeah, it's magic. I get it. My own experience there. Okay. So everyone for 10 minutes is bleachers fifth album. Oh, yeah.

Okay. And now here's where I will be very honest with you. And I'm embarrassed to admit, although I've heard all this other work you've done. I've not been consuming a lot of bleachers. Very oddly separate audiences. Yes, sure.

And I was completely missing the boat.

And then I was like, oh, my god, there's so many things I like about bleachers.

I hear so much general public in it. Oh, cool. Did you like general public? Yeah, fuck. They got some John Hughes for your drops.

“I think I was so in the new wave in junior high.”

That's what I regulated with. I was just so in love with people and so heartbroken. All that means it was so perfect. Get so dramatic in the best way. The horns, I fucking love the saxophone so much.

You couldn't make us on the 80s without saxophone. It was illegal. It became frowned upon. Got a little cheesy. So then we lost it, but it's like anything, it's how you use it.

I mean, look at the guitar. It's like you can make the guitar so cheesy. You're it could be the most interesting transcendent thing ever. I love the way Neil Young plays solos where he's like fighting it. saxophone is the same thing since the same thing.

I love playing with things that have been distasteful and finding a new voice for them. Just in order, I love dirty wedding dress. Take you out tonight. I'm going to say there's a lot of springs in that song. Dirty wedding dress and take you out tonight.

Literally take place where I live with the chore in Jersey. I can feel it. That's my music.

New Jersey has a sound that is one of the most important sounds in the world.

But not documented the same way that like New York, London, Manchester. People obviously know Bruce, but there's so much more to it. There's Southside, Johnny, is that whole shore sound. We're learning so much. Charlie is like a historian, a New Jersey musician.

And he went to like some famous jazz being on his workshop. Yeah, like camp or something crazy jazz.

“The way I articulate the way I use horns, which is very New Jersey, is horns are coastal, right?”

Because when ships come in, you got a blow horn. So you think of horns and coastal, you got like New Orleans type jazzy horns. You got sort of New England, like crab shack, deep deep horns. I love this taste. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. L.A. sort of Captain Geech in the swim shark tour, type another, that thing you do reference horns. But then you got New Jersey, which is coastal horns, but big and sad. Big, soaring sad horn lines where it's like there's a duality of there's a saxophone

here, which is supposed to be like a wink, but they're playing the super sad long line. Very springy thing, like god that line in secret garden when it's just like hanging over. I love that stuff. Okay. And then this happens to me almost quarterly monical will know this.

I find a song and I listen to it thousands of times. I can listen to songs and repeat me to for hours and hours and hours. I never tire of it. And upstairs that else is fucking. Oh, really?

Oh my god, dude. I can't tell you the word. I've been going to the last 20 years. The last 20 years, electric lady studios. I didn't put periods in it, did I not. Oh, so I did pronounce it.

You're correct. No, everyone says upstairs it helps. Because there's nothing. I didn't put kids figure out. Yes, I did put it together afterwards on me.

But I was like, oh, it's the friend's house. But then when I listen to lyrics, I'm like, no, this is definitely where you record. Finish up a track, send a text, party on the roof, everybody get dressed. This feeling, if you're artistic, I feel like I just got zapped. It's like to me when I finish a script.

I'm like, I fucking did it. And I wonder if we have a similar emotional state where it's like, I have to earn joy. Oh, yeah. And when I earn it, the heights of joy I can reach. I want a party.

I will let it fucking rip. When I'm there and I get something I like, by the way, that space up there.

“It's such like a secret rare for I'd place because it's all my friends.”

Like, no one's going to come and go lives. We're just actually completely loose in having fun. And so those nights were in summer. You feel yourself from something you just made. And then you just kind of group text up on people like, let's have pizza and drink on the roof.

Oh, those are the nights.

And I'm a believer that it's always the good old days.

But I'm like, we're living in the good old days. And I want to write a song about that. The album ends with I'm not joking, which is very intense love song. And then upstairs at the LS is like the credits rolling. I finished the album.

Here we are. Yeah. I was kind of shocked. It wasn't like a first song on there, but I guess that makes it tone a sense. Well, that's a funny thing about secretly like my manager and my leader like, this is probably a hit single.

And I'm like, neat. The album is my origin story. Then people I've lost talked with quite quickly. And then it's my wedding. And then it's depression.

And then it's sort of finding God through love. And then the credits roll. And I'm at the studio. Finishing me. Yeah.

But what's cool about these days is people find their race to things. Yeah. But there's no doubt. I understand pop music. Like that song is very.

My grievance is you've released three tracks already on the album. I got to listen to on Spotify, which I could hit repeat on. But I have got the early things on the website. So I have listened to this song. Yeah.

I'm not exaggerating 50 plus times in the last 24 hours. And I have to go to my computer and restart it every single time. And it's worth it to me. That means a lot to me. This fucking song.

I'm not down playing that song. I love that song. But it has a lot of that song rating. Like capturing a feeling. Not everyone comes in and hangs out with me at the roof up there.

But everyone knows the feeling of I feel enough joy in life to want to text my friends and hang out, which is kind of a big deal. Yeah, it is. Most of the time, I think we're all like I feel like thinking about what I want

I've been up feeling. Yeah. Or like I feel like turning my phone off and pretending no one exists. So when I have those moments where I'm like, let's be together. Makes me feel very alive and I'm trying to do more of it.

But I could be projecting on to you. No, because I feel like I know that moment. So we're not projecting it all. It's literally that moment. Do you also relate to, and I'm just now at 51, the yokes coming off a bit.

And I have to tell you, it's such a lovely feeling. But do you feel the weight of I have to do so many things? Everything I think I might be able to do. I must do the daunting fucking force in burden of that. Yeah, and it's one of the reasons why I love being on tour so much.

Because you're like a baby doing nothing because the show is so big. So it kills that voice.

I'm shocked you've never become a big addict because I'll tell you I'm more and

more understanding my addiction to what I realize now more than ever is that the benders were these little breaks I could give myself. Okay, no, all we're doing is getting fucked up for three days. We're not going to try to be spectacular at anything.

“I mean, that's why I found a third is one of my favorite movies my wife jokes.”

Sometimes when I get sick, it's the best times because everything gets quiet. You know, I'm a little bitch, but I'm not trying to conquer myself in my head. It's wild road trips. Not allowed to do anything.

Yeah, I love Christmas time. I'm sure you like me had moments during lockdown that were transcendent just because it took the whole fucking world shutting down for me to get a break. Yeah. These are things I at once long to work on and then also I'm like, yeah, I'm

oh, yeah, I go back and forth. I have a feeling and maybe you've kids. No. This is my feeling and you can tell you this bullshit not, but I sit there and I think to myself, I'm running towards this thing and when that happens, it's going to just like rewire

100%. Maybe that's naive. Maybe it's going to happen and there I'll be. No, it all a thousand percent because the voice of what I got to do is like at three on the volume and the what did these children need is at 10 and it's so liberating.

Well, as I feel by dog, so I can only imagine we'll have kids. I'll stop working, not true, but I will work in a way that is so much more healthy.

Well, I've already started that getting married changed that because I always was running.

I always had so many negotiations in my head. I was never with the right person.

“So I was like, yeah, I have that terrible sort of like, does everyone get everything?”

Well, I like my work. Maybe I'll just, yeah, I met my wife on the roof at all. Oh, that's amazing. Oh, you did at one of your, I did drive on a song, Margaret. He met Margaret on the rooftop.

No, I have to go on a road of song about it. Oh, my God. But yeah, we met right there, which is another reason why that place is so special. Oh, well, it's actually what's interesting about it is when you find some common happiness. Your work gets even better.

I have to say your wife, she's one of, she's on your crush list. Oh, my God. She's on everyone's crush list. Is she stunning? I noticed that sometimes when she like does something, it looks really beautiful.

Like gone in the internet and everyone's like, I'm going to kill you to me and I'm like, oh, yeah. There was no failinies like I fight, find me in the street and I'll fight. Yeah, I like it. Yeah, if somebody can't do this street, I would, if he's nobody to do this, he was like,

I like your wife a lot and I want to fight for her first.

I would be like, well, that's up to her, my friend. Yeah, I've gotten a charge of her. Yeah, but I mean, she's kind of internetling. This may shock you. I can relate to that.

Of course you like my wife. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Have you seen once upon a time before you met her as my question? Yeah, and she saw a space ball before she met me.

No, I was totally aware of her and I met her once prior to the roofed once. And now it's like a great moment that we look back on it. So weird. And it was really weird as I met her a long, long time ago at this party. It was a Taylor's party and for some reason we took a picture.

Maybe she saw it in the future. But Taylor just grabbed both of us in the picture of the three of us all. And then two years went by before I ever saw a migrant. She'd go to the children's professional school because she's a dancer. There's a lot of weird similarities in our life.

That was kind of a joke, but she didn't. Oh, really? No, sure. I just know that she's a dancer. I just assumed that maybe she lived in California. And she's like from Montana's grew up in North Carolina.

Very similar to me. I mean, I left Jersey, which is a lot closer.

“But you should have North Carolina went to the same school.”

That's wild. And now we live in Jersey, which is very much how we both grew up. We're really happy to get out. The way people react to pop culture in New Jersey. There's like a sweetness to it because it's out of the sauce.

New York, less so. But LA is sort of like, everyone knows it. What are you working on? You know what I'm talking about? A little bit of a chance.

And you get, we get to Jersey. And people were like, you do music? I love Billy Joel. Exactly. Yep.

We just saw him. And he was really good. And I also love project. And then we are going to see Celine Dion. Yep.

We have a house in Nashville. And saying, my name is like, they've seen three movies in the last four years.

They're not like sitting there being like, well, this was an indie movie.

“But they spent $20 million on the promotion.”

So he's like, you know what I mean? Yeah. They're just sort of like, as you told me, it's very good. And they're not wrong. Yeah, they're not looking for a hot take.

Kind of how I feel about movies in a way. Like, I hear all the sauce. But I don't care at all. I don't make movies. I don't want to make movies.

I like making music movies here in there. But zero ambition. So when I watch a movie, I am just fucking loving it or not. And it's all like hair about where I know a lot of people who are in the sauce. It's just fascinating.

Yeah. So separation is nice. You get to experience people who are hitting you with all different levels. Which is also like the show. When I play people coming together from very different walks of life.

I like it because it right sizes your thing. When you're talking to your neighbors and they're like, yeah, like music. I like Billy Joel. And I like Pearl Jam. And you're like, all right.

That's the actual spotted occupies and people's consciousness. And I like being reminded of that. People like movies. But they like them. They're not fucking obsessed.

I just love all versions.

And very often I always tell my friends, you play live.

You see the 1% of fans that know everything about you. Which I love. You know every bit. They know every joke. They know everything.

Every inside joke. And it's like that interaction is really interesting. But there's also like Jennifer up in the restaurant. There's a friend broader. Yeah.

“And she loves the band for a different reason.”

Nine. Yeah. Fucking chill. I think it's very good to get out. Yeah.

The bubble. I like it's hard for me. I don't know if you guys can relate. But it might be because I don't have a home. Keys feel like that.

I don't have any here. But I grew up in the suburbs also. Where? Georgia. suburbs of Georgia.

Like Mary. Very close to Mary yet. There was a club of Mary. I think. I don't know if you guys can relate.

But it might be because I don't have a home. Keys feel like that. I don't have any here. But I grew up in the suburbs also. Where?

Georgia suburbs of Georgia. Like Mary. Georgia from that. Yeah. I have no home.

Yeah. We've had you forever. My last question is because you've worked with so many people. Have you ever been called upon to smooth out a beef between two artists? And you know, I have to tell me who.

But they haven't been brought in. I have it. You have. No. Okay.

It's an interesting question. You can see that happening. Me too. I'm trying to think if there's anything. Not really.

No. No. Okay. That's good. Thank God.

Yeah. Everyone's kind of in their own zone. Especially when you're making an album. You're really just like off on your own thing. But are there betrayals?

Does it feel like oh shit? I guess I can't go work with this person now. You know, right? Yeah. Sometimes.

But you always make your own decisions.

And I find that the whole world is so different and bizarre and interesting. And also all high school at the same time. Yeah. It's amazing. But you have your people and you stand by them and you ride for them.

No, nothing that really like specifically happened. Right. You know, anyone who's really bummed anyone out that I know. I read it. Hang on, my friends.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

“You're going to turn me down as you should.”

It's a very crazy request I've never done this. But I just want you to know. Yeah. I am willing to dance with you to that song. Doctor.

Yes. I've been dancing all morning to it. Okay. And I don't know if I want to dance. But here's what I think you should do.

Okay. Put it on. See what happens to your body. And let's just watch you. Okay.

That's really stressful. My God. I've never listened to the song with anyone who wasn't part of making. Okay. I'm not asking you to answer me.

What do you mean? What do you mean? I don't know that.

What I know is that I can't tell you how I feel about it.

I know that. You don't have to move. You could talk about it. I'm going to move. In Monaco, Edadox.

It's going to be so cringy. What you might be really getting you going is the drums. I think called a lindrum, which probably most popular like Prince used a lot. It's a great 80's drum machine. And it's very punchy.

And I think it might speak to your hips. And then we play a lot of live drums on top of it. And I think maybe that speaks to your shoulders. Okay, good. I like.

I like all this stuff. Here's your microphone. Yeah. That's the song. Literally.

Have you ever danced with anyone in the show? Never. I've never done this. You know when I... I did this to BJ in Chicago, kid, and Anderson Pax song.

That song fucked me up in a way that I had to dance on Instagram. And along with my friends were worried about me. But I don't. Not really. Not really.

Are you here all day? Yeah, basically. Like, do you just spend all day here? Essentially. Or do you go to your big house?

He got in my regular size house. Is it tough to be here in the small house? Yeah. All I do is look around. Yeah.

All I do is look around. Yeah. Oh, I got it. It's really dark. These poor sounds of bitches over here.

Okay. Are we ready? No. I'm still figuring it out. So what happens after this?

We'll do a fact check after this. So that's just him and I. Everything is a fact. Yeah. We check these facts.

Yeah. And it's really fun. But really it's just a chance for us to kind of just talk about nothing. Yeah. And then I'll like check some facts.

Do you ever do episodes with no guests? No. But the fact check kind of serves. Oh my god. I love it.

I'm almost going to do this just to make fun of good people. Yeah. Yeah. What? Is it a good vibe if you and I keep talking and he dances?

Oh my god. Oh my god. So then what? So what?

“Can we if you're making him watch it do this?”

I'm assuming that you're this.

Finish up a track and set the test. Are you on the roof? Everybody good, Jay. I've been down on you. I'm not going to say it.

Oh no. No. No. No. You're not.

Oh my god. I do not. Maybe for just a minute. But you're not having a cold fight. You've got to treat me a good night.

You're not having a cold fight. Is this like a music video? Yeah. I'm just a free. He's free.

He's free. He's free. Hey. Hey. You like the way.

Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey.

Hey. I'll say this. It's very John Hughes-Dax. I'm going to move it. Keep it going.

I feel like this is great. I feel like this is great. I kind of like this now.

I didn't like it at first.

Now you're right. I kind of like it now. Yeah. Why are you bringing it? I didn't like it at first.

I like it now. I'm bringing it. He's a really good shape, huh? Yeah. Yeah.

That'll give him. There he is. There he is. There he is. I don't know what he's like.

What do you do?

“He's got the whole thing for the last minute.”

I'm telling. How much more? Not much. But you truly look uncomfortable. There we go.

There we go. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God.

Oh my God. Oh that's good. There we go. Okay. It's a different.

Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God.

Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh he got me up on the roof. That's a lot of black and that's a little fruit. That's a fruit.

Yeah. Oh my God. This is the show. This is the show. This is the show.

Oh my God. It's like a twenty minute. One minute one song. You know what? You make the song so walk that.

Very compelling. I'm going to say something. Okay. It was upsetting. And then it was really beautiful.

I really feel like you really like. I thought I might be. Do you really get me there? I want to give the dead. I want to give the dead.

You know, look, it's like watching your dad. You know, it's watching your dad. This is how I felt. Okay.

“And I think we need to do five more minutes.”

Okay.

I felt like first I was like, oh my God.

What's he going to do? Yeah. And then I had that feeling like I met a comedy show. Was the comedian going to bring me up? Yes.

And then I'm not even joking. I feel like he's really going to another place. And that's beautiful. And then I genuinely liked a lot of the moves. Because they felt like there's an anti-micahol and breakfast club.

Kind of thing, L.E.G.D. And then I quickly realized that what was going on was. Really about Monica. Her watching you with love. Are you sure there was Anne?

What are you loving? With love? With sadness? All right. It was like the years you spent together.

It was all just happening. And I was like, her and her daughter goes like, that's tax. I love him. And what am I going to do? Like, I was acting.

I was hitting his hand. He's not putting on a show. It's so earnest. There's a chance that that's the video. And that's it.

I sign up. I can dance much better than that. That was really good. The greatest space wasn't great. In my bedroom today.

I was like, I was born to dance to this song. I love to move my body. I just don't do it to my own music. I'm playing it because it feels funny. It feels like I do love to dance.

I thought that could be the case. Yeah. Not that I'm not meeting you or your ad. I just this was about you. And then I was about Monica.

I actually felt like there was double whatever glass here. I felt like I wasn't here. And I was watching you alone. And Monica was like a ghost watching it. That's okay.

By being honest of the three minutes. Probably 30 seconds of it. I was unself-conscious. That's it. I felt like the whole time.

I did feel like the whole time. That's good. I thought when you went to Monica, those were probably the moment of being self-conscious. You were like, I'm going to hit you. You're my guess.

No. I'm doing something very bizarre and fun. I like it. But it is with genuine intention. It's received.

Of them thanking you. And hoping you can see what that song does to me. I will request other videos if you're doing it.

I will request that you just do it.

I will request that it becomes your apologies to Matt Damon. I would love that. I signed a call. Yeah. If you have fucking Joyce Carolotes here, you just kicked the table over.

And just dance in Monica's face, right? If you have Nancy Pelosi here, you just flipped the table and go, you're going to watch. Yeah. But don't worry. I don't want them dancing.

Yeah. It's not like a cheer tunnel. It's not that. It's a subversive strange moment where you just interviewed. Let's say.

Barack Obama. Barack Obama. We want to join though. He's not allowed. The whole day.

Because it's not like, where is Amy? Here's the moment. It's not that it's. I just interviewed you. And now you're going to witness me having child.

Like joy around someone who knows me deeply. And loves me and is embarrassed for me. Yeah. You have to sit there and watch that. Yeah.

Also, I'm living out. Probably your worst. That's what I just said. This is my work. Really?

“I think you're honest because I think when you're interviewed.”

You're so vulnerable.

And this is your guy's a space.

And then I had to have the weird vulnerable moment of watching you. I know. Very uncomfortable to watch me dance. Almost worse than doing the dancing. But that's why.

Yeah. That's why it feels tough. It's like now you're in this position. You're not going to have to be like. Dax played with a line.

So Dax didn't do something inappropriate. But we all felt like something inappropriate was happening. And that's really interesting. So imagine a Jewish carolot sitting here or whatever. And you do that.

Your carolot is. Oh, she's coming. Is she coming? Yes. Who's coming soon?

Can you not say? Who's coming? That was a joke. No. Do you know who's coming?

Well, we don't really. It's always a secret. It's always a secret. Okay. So like, if I'm guessing, I don't know.

And if that's something for us. Okay. How about a Jewish carolot? Okay. Okay.

How about um. Oh, let's use Taylor. She'd be great. Okay. But she'd be.

She'd be really comfortable. That'd be nice. I think she'd be like, you go. Do your thing. Yeah.

Yeah.

“This is what I'm trying to get guys to do.”

Vladimir's a linsky. Yeah. Oh, right. Wait. What's his name?

Oh, my God. Did I just connect Vladimir Putin and Solinsky? What's his first name? Fold them here? Fold them here?

What the fuck is, is it really? It's something like, I don't know. Okay. So not way off. Imagine you're getting into it with Ted Cruz.

And you're really going there. Or like, I'm just trying to think of an interesting character. Lindsey Graham. Lindsey Graham. That might put him over the, he might pass in my present.

Yeah. He might hit the rainbow bridge. So you had to have known Mr. Shepherd. He would have died. He would have died.

This big blue marble. Tim watching you do something that is so analytical to what he's about. Would kill him. You had to have known that, Mr. Shepherd. This is what they'd say.

I'm trying to say. Are you okay? Oh, I'm more than okay. I just wanted to check. This is where I live in the place.

I know. In the most insane. In the most insane way. Yeah. In the most sincere non-bitty way.

Yes. I feel like I owe you that because of how much joy that thing gives me. And how much I relate to the moment. You're right. And put in a formal crest to be the, and we're going to tie Matt Damon of this show.

Let's get this podcast to number three or two. Let's get number two. We got to beat those Germans. This might get it there. This might get us there.

Well, this has been a blast. Thank you.

It's been a first for me.

And it's been a blast. It's not a last. And I can't wait for people to explode to this song the way I just did. It's a great song. Now I can say even having experience.

Yeah. In the worst possible situation you liked. I really liked it. Yeah.

“I did have a thought while was happening was like, is this a new kind of like strip club?”

Not stripping, but like is this like a new thing? We're like a guy. Just sort of like that. I'll enjoy. And you sit near.

I think it would be too much for people to handle. Just watching a man. Let me think about it. I think it's now it's good. It's good to show what you just did is the opposite of the manosphere.

So I will give you credit. You think that's the inverse. I do. It was definitely not technical. Yeah.

Yeah. I think my answer is going to pack it for a long time is how I feel. Yeah. I've a lot to say. My schedule therapy.

Well, this has been a blast. You guys are going to be like, because I love Rachel so much. And that was everything I told you guys. And I hope you'll come back. If you cut that part.

Right. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. That's my worry.

Yeah. Forces. You can't live your life. Yeah. You know what?

You know what? You know what? Yeah. Yeah. It's the puzzle that needs to come.

But next time you have like a dignitary or someone. Yeah. This is just what we do here. Jack. This has been a blast.

Everybody listen to everyone for 10 minutes. May 22nd. Come back. He is at our pair. Expert, buddy.

Makes a mistake. It's all the time. They got my equity here. He's got a little help. The facts.

Well, you got a free. You got a free dancer out of it. He did. He did. That could be that.

That just could be the music video. I don't know what they would have offered me. What the budget would have been.

He got it for cheaper than whatever that was.

He sure did. $100 or something. We're both. We both had whirlwind weekends. Yeah.

Yes. You here in town. Me in Nashville.

“Have my brother and his partner Emily in town.”

And it was so fun. Also, they loved the house, which was really nice. Yeah. Last time we checked in. We made a joke about if they say, like, go to Malibu.

You just keep talking. Yeah. They didn't say that. You just keep it going. Yeah.

We did go to Malibu. Who brought it up? They did. What did they say? My brother was like, or I just said, what is there anything you guys really

want to do? And he said, we do want to go to Malibu. Yeah. Oh, shit. God.

Okay. Do you take those virginess? Or do you take Kain and Dune? I took Kain and okay. I was sort of, I mean, I just follow.

I follow my phone. Yeah. You know, I call my phone. It's good advice. Just and I get and fights a lot about which app to use.

Sure. I won't say which one he uses. Ways. I'm not going to say what he uses. I just really dislike the one he uses.

Okay. I only hate one of the three main ones. And I'll remain quiet on which one. But we have Apple maps. We have Google maps.

And we have ways to write my missing one. Those are the three I know. Rob probably uses a punk rock form. That's like no one uses. It's like really cool.

Yeah. It's like extrafick. Oh, shit. I want to do that one. I'm not cool enough.

Which one do you use? I use Apple. I use it on my phone. Okay. And I love it.

And I use Google. And I love it. I love it. Yeah. Yeah.

It's fine. We're not debating. Generally when you and I drive together, I know where I'm going. We drove together last week to a screening. Uh-huh.

I knew how to get that. Yeah, you didn't put it in. I didn't need that map. That's the difference between us. I.

You would have mapped even that place that you know. Definitely. I don't really know that place. Like I do, but not enough. I need to.

You know how to get to sunset tower on your own? Yes. Okay. All the. I mean, it's two turns.

Go down Western to sunset in a page. Okay. This is what I like about maps though. It can tell if there's traffic, so it will take you a different way.

Well, I'll never take you to the two turns version.

Yeah, it doesn't take me to turn. No. But 30 turns. Which if I'm going on my own, I can get there on my own. If I didn't have my phone, I could get there.

But I'm going to go to turns. Right. And when I follow the map, I feel like I'm probably getting their faster because it's telling me. I think I think you are. Um, I'm living in great stress.

Have you read all these articles? They're starting to mount cameras up everywhere. As a big statewide initiative for for speeding cameras. Really? There's going to be everywhere.

“And I think they let you go 11 miles an hour over the speed limit.”

And then they just automatically send you a ticket. No. Yes. Really? Yeah.

And I got a list of the places they were putting it. But it wasn't terribly exact. Oh. Just like this. Oh, this is going to be horrible for you.

It is. I'm going to have to learn all new rooms. I'm really pushing you out of this city. Wow. Yeah.

And then I can't really speed in in Mount Julia because there's so many cops. So that's okay. I was actually going to ask you because in Georgia. You cannot speed. They're the cops are everywhere.

They're in speed traps. There are speed traps. They're in cars that are black. And then in black writing say like Duluth police. So you can't tell that it's a police car.

So you can't really pull those. Correct. Yeah.

And so it's always been a thing.

And I only go five over there every time. And that's the vibe and natural Julia on the highway and Nashville fine. People are flying. Okay. That's kind of fine.

10 over. Yeah. For people don't know the culture in L.A. It's everyone drives fast. They want pretty much.

You because you actually cannot go that fast because there's so much traffic. Yes. They got to say is state to state to state. California is the least. Yeah.

Oh. Press. Yeah. Yeah. They're not running like speed traps and stuff.

They're there. And they have a whole. I can win. We made chips. I got to meet a lot of the sea people.

And they have an actual agenda, which is they just are patrolling high accident areas. They're just trying to make everything safe. That's nice. Yeah. It's good.

All to say people drive pretty fast. Yeah. I'm on the highway. Yeah. Everyone's going 80.

That's definitely over 11 over. That's 15 over. Again, only if there's no traffic, which is pretty rare. Yeah.

“But when you get it, I know why that's why.”

Anyway, I'm just waiting. I guess they're going to have like a month graze thing where you'll get tickets. But you want to have to pay the fine.

But there's no points. Oh. Interesting. Yeah.

“But I just, I don't like the idea of there being a record.”

I love that. But I don't really see. But I just don't like being watched. Even though that's kind of weird for me, because you're not a libertarian by the way. Yeah.

I'm really not. I've gotten more into privacy as the older I've got for some reason. Yeah. Things happen when you're older. That's just how it is.

Yeah. Yeah. Like my mother was just here. And she's like her trust level with the government is at a real all-time low. Right.

And I think it's just aging. Yeah.

She always was like a 60s flower power.

Yeah. Pay to Vietnam. But right. Now it just feels like everything's not to be trusted. That's true.

And anyway. So yeah. I have to drive pretty slow in Nashville. And I was looking like I'm going to have to drive slow here. I'm going to move to Germany all the time.

Oh. Oh. I thought it was going to retire in Nashville, but not not the case. Oh. Well, that's a dignity for this episode, actually, because we are going to try to unseat

the number two most stream podcast. Yeah. It's just a Germany caution. Yeah. So maybe you should move there to just get like feet on the ground.

Well, we at least know you can have an enormously huge podcast over there. That's true.

“And I think you should be able to acknowledge that.”

I mean, I think I'll stay away. Maybe we can start doing zooms. Yeah. Germany doesn't feel like the place for you. It's not for me.

I don't know. I do want to visit there. I've never been there. Sure.

I'm sure I would enjoy it.

It answers the question. What if everything ran perfectly? Right. Yeah. Everything.

Everything runs exactly on time. Everything's spotless clean. Yeah. They've got a real ethos there. And I appreciate that.

That part's a nice thing. But then you do start feeling like where's the the Parisian vibe. Exactly. And they're okay. This is the show.

Gamish the hack. Oh, it's like a game. Well, they're playing it. They're definitely playing a game. They're also one of them's younger.

So they've been at it hard either he started really young or they've just had an explosive ride. Got 341 episodes. Not that many. Also, they're, yeah, they're getting a lot of downloads.

Oh, my God. Everyone every single German listens to it.

“Do you think maybe they'll have us like that?”

Yeah. They got a left or right on the right. Okay. Yeah. They both have a thing.

Yeah. They're both attractive. Yeah. They got a left looks like dip load now. That was a name.

That dip load is his name. Yeah, he looks like him. Yeah. Yeah, it does. I just looked up dip load.

It does. It might be dip load. What if it's dip load? That would explain why he's got such a huge. Now he looks older here.

That's that's come. That's dip load. Oh, shit. I was dude. That's their identical.

Wait, is maybe it is dip load's podcast. Hold on. Gamish. Oh, no. It's like it literally comes up in German.

No. It's Felix, low-brecht, and Tommy Schmidt. Congratulations, boys. Wow, man. Hey, have us on.

Yeah. Let's get it in German. I can hit him with my six sentences of German and then we're out. Yep. Yep.

Oh, it's a comedy audio show, though. Lots of shots. Oh, yeah. So I went, I'm fresh off of Nashville. Yes.

We started the Hulk Hogan documentary. Yeah. Incredible.

So incredible that we had a reservation for brick tops at 7.30.

And we gave her restaurant. Favorite restaurant. We considered not going. Wow. Went to brick tops.

It was delicious. They've taken the ribs off the menu. Uh-oh. That's, you have notes. I love those ribs.

And then Saturday, more boating. We went and watched them unload the coal for the electric plant. Watch them unload the barges. Got it. We were distracted by that.

We almost missed our big horseback riding adventure. We're out there just watching this thing. Much different versions of. I know. We were riveted Monica.

The way this pulley system moves the barges. Oh, my God. It picks it up. Like, I don't know how it picks up that cleanly. Yeah.

And we just watched them. Anyways, then we had a haul last back because we had horseback ride. Right. We had to drive 35 minutes out there for that. That was a surprise for them.

I had asked Aaron earlier on the day how much he weighed because they sent an email. See, you can't be over 240. I was like, oh, shit. I don't know what Aaron's weights that right now. Yeah.

And then like, then I wanted to tell him that they asked you to say 239. But they did weigh us. Okay. Yeah. He was fine.

He was not something to fuck around with. He was fine. He was like 230. Everything was cool. Okay.

But when we pulled up, he goes, oh, my God. Horseback ride. It's out. Maybe we were taking a helicopter ride. Cause you asked how much I weighed.

I was like without a big cooler. You wished. You wished. So we went. And you know, I thought it was going to be really fun because I like me and scared.

And I'm scared on horses. Yeah.

They scare me. Yeah. Some bad experiences.

They're majestic animals.

But they are. They have drives around. They're in charge. Yeah. Actually, this is good for you.

You're like relinquishing.

“This other thing is more powerful than me.”

Yeah. It's like a immersion therapy. Yeah. Some kind. But of course, we start doing this trail ride through the state park and it's beautiful.

But little hints are coming out right away. It's like, how old are everyone's horses? Oh, turns out mine's 25 right now. It's about as old as they get. Oh.

They said he probably should have been retired. Like now they now he's saying like maybe they should. He's passes prime and he should have already been retired. And I'm like if they lived at 25 and mine's 25. That's like, oh, that's the equivalent of being 100.

Okay. He's a grumpy. Yes. He doesn't want to be out there. Oh, okay.

So he likes to follow the leader's horse. Right with his face on the horse's ass. So I do think he had a little bit of dementia just to touch of it. He has some going on. He wanted to be nose to butt.

But if Aaron's horse got even close to mine, he would jump and kick. And so my was intermittently kicking and stopping and freaking out and doing more kicking.

“And then Aaron's was like trying to avoid getting hit by the kicks and almost hit Aaron in the face.”

And so I just had this complete. Yeah. Yeah. Like when's my horse is going to really do something while. Yeah.

And then. Like we'll do laugh or were you like, I want this to be done now. Oh, boy. Both. Both.

Yeah. And then another like there it was a little muddy and slippery. So they're the horses were slipping a bit. And then then one of the the the gal said. Oh, yeah.

These horses have been clumsy all day. So like these two all. They've been clumsy all day. I just kept thinking like we keep kept getting more More hints that it was going to go terribly awry.

And then we never rode fast where I could have maybe gotten the giggles where I'd be really scared.

Okay. So it was just this like my least favorite part of it. I'm just having anxiety. My horse is going to buck me off or something. Now, did you cycle?

I'm more interested in the psychology, obviously. Yeah. So were you like, why did I do this? And like, it was for to be funny and like, well,

“what point am I not going to do this anymore for bits?”

Yeah. Or like, what was happening in your mind? I was a lot of my existential style. You are okay. Anywho is fine.

We started forgetting. We are on a horse trip and just started. You have you have like a guide in front and a guide in back. Then the three of us. Yeah.

And first we're doing horse talk horse questions and state park quite. And they were just like, Norn is going to talk how we are and then we're just doing our dumb stuff. Okay. It's great.

It was great. And then we came back.

And my neighbor Nate had made this incredible smoked feast for us.

Poor bugs smoked in two racks of ribs that were impossible. Like good because you didn't have ribs tonight before. That's right. Kind of a blessing really. Yeah.

So then Nate came over and then the four of us had dinner. And we stayed up and then we watched some more. Oh, I left one thing out. We had gone for a walk on Saturday through the neighborhood. Tyros and the move for some exercise. So we took this long walk.

And there was the cutest little boy he had to have been between ten and twelve. And he had a little mini bike and old fashioned mini bike with a lawnmower engine and two wheels. Yeah. And he was ripping back and forth and we were like cheering for all you know. First thing we saw him do is he pulled this.

Before even we were watching him. He pulled his motorcycle over got off and moved something out of the road. And we were like, what was that? And then when we got up to the road we saw he had. He saw a turtle in the road and he pulled over and moved it out. So it'd be safe.

So we knew he was a really good boy. So we are like waving him every time. Every time he dry by he quickly waving put his hand back on the gas. But the throttle. So on Sunday, we got all of my motorcycles out.

We were ripping around the yard and Tyros hadn't been on a motorcycle in 25 years. So that was hilarious. And then I was like, all right, let's go out in the neighborhood. He was on a motorized horse. And we went over to the little boy's house.

We went out into the neighborhood. He already had his many bike out. He heard us in the yard. And his dad said, he heard you and God is out. And I said, oh, go, well, you might come over to invite him on a ride. So we went on a ride with this little boy.

It was so fun. We just had a bunch of laps of the neighborhood. That is so cute. That was really, really sweet. Oh my God, he probably like a cutest video I showed you.

It's him pulling up and waving. Well, he probably, you just like made his whole, you know, probably like day because, you know, kids. They forget it. They reset quickly.

Yeah, but wow, it's really sweet. Really, really. Yeah, for 36 hours. I can't believe he moved a little turtle out. Yeah, he was a nice boy.

He had a good heart, but he liked ripping around. He was like, that's what Aaron said. If we were in Melford, we would saw the kid try to catch air on it. Exactly. Yeah, I wonder if I could jump this turtle.

Exactly.

I'm sure, expert. If you dare. And then Sunday, massage is for all three boys. Nice.

Tyrell had never had a massage in his whole life.

I can't believe that. So, that's 51 years. Yeah. Did he enjoy it? He loved it.

Okay, good. Of course. Yeah, the best. But I know, I'm like, I bet my dad will not be bad. I know.

What my dad's definitely never had a massage. And my mom either. Really? Yeah. But they was on it.

Yeah. Tyrell was saying he never wanted to see his hair on his back. That was the whole reason. And weekly was like, you know, almost all men have had her back.

“Is that something would be uniquely disgusting for the massage therapist?”

Yesterday, I had things I was supposed to do. I had to work. I had to edit. Yeah. You're a busy woman.

I'm a busy lady.

Can't just be hosting the rest of your life.

Well, no, my brother was gone. Oh, he left. Yeah, they were gone. So, I like stuff. I had a whole day plan of getting, being productive.

And I didn't do any of that. Okay. I started going through some pictures because I needed to print some pictures. I decided, you know, currently my house doesn't have many pictures or personal pictures. There's art.

I'm getting into art. That's it. We'll put a pen slash bookmark in that. And I have a couple pictures in my bedroom and a couple in the guest bedroom. The guest bedrooms.

But none in the living room. I was like, you know what? I need, like, if you walk in here, you don't know who lives here. And you don't know who they love, you know? Yeah.

So, I, and I had, I knew I had some frames, but I didn't know where they were. They were in the garage. So, I had to, you'll be interested in this. I cleaned out my garage. Oh, my God.

It was really hard. I hated it. Yeah. But I got on my frames. So, I brought them up.

And it was okay.

Now I need to print pictures.

So, I went through, I was going through so many old pictures. And I was bothering everyone. I was like, you know, texting everyone. Do you have this picture? Do you have any pictures of this?

You're calling on others also. Yes, I was. And so, I was doing that. And then also, you know, the photo book I've made for Ryan for Secret Turkey last year. Yeah.

Artifact uprising. I'll give them a shout out. Amazing photo books. Oh, I hope I don't have another coffee time. God, don't leave.

You can cough here. Cally is the one that introduced me to them. She is great taste. You know, and you can make these photo books. And they're so cool.

They're not your average photo books. Sorry, average photo book places. But I made three photo books. One was Golden Globes. Okay.

Second was Sag awards. Af Sag actor awards. Third was my apartment. This one was hardest.

“Because I was like, I think I only want pictures in the apartment.”

I need to boil it down to 50 pictures. That's the max. I was trying to balance like pictures of the actual apartment. And then some pictures of people. You know, it's a lot.

Your own mind is here. Different meals. No. And we have to not take enough pictures in that apartment. I was actually kind of pissed.

Yeah. But again, I'm asking people. I was, I, I, I, not to not to throw her under the bus. Because obviously we love her the most here. But I had to ask Kristen for a picture.

Okay. And she's just not. Sometimes she's not the best I responding. So I got a little nervous. Because I really wanted to get these books in, you know, in.

You wanted to get it off your plate. I did. Yeah. And I asked her. I said, do you have the picture of me?

You. Dax and on-off from the vanity fair party. I knew she had it. And then she was our spotting. And so you know what?

I, I checked back in. And I felt bad. She's a busy lady. She's shooting a show right now. Yeah.

I did my due diligence. I, first text and on. Yeah. Yeah. I said, do you have this picture?

She didn't. But she was on set with Kristen. So she went to get Kristen's vote.

“This was going to solve my problems, you know?”

Yeah. But Kristen, for the listeners. It sounds like you're crying. You're not crying. I'm not crying.

I have a, I think I'm a cop. You just haven't got a call. I want to have a call of attacks that are springing up more frequently. I know. It's really, I don't know what happened.

And now I guess when I'm talking there happened. Do you think they're psych, now I'm getting nervous. Like psychosomatic or something. Things and everything at least have. I mean, I don't.

I'm unwilling to accept this as psychosomatic. Something like, I, because you know, I cancel my doctor's appointment. Oh, okay.

Oh.

So I had a doctor's appointment set because I've been getting sick a lot.

I've been getting a lot of bugs. Yeah. And, you know, this is why single people don't. They don't. Yeah.

They don't live and they die because they don't go to the doctor. Luckily, I have Jess who said, I want, I want you to go to the doctor. Yeah. This is too many bugs. And they're lasting for too long.

And I was like, okay. Sure. Maybe next time, you know? And then, but this last bug was lasting for so long. I did make an appointment.

Had it scheduled. But then I got better. It's always the case. Yeah. Because I mean, make the appointment.

Are you sure about the doctor? Yeah. It was an 8 a.m. Oh, yeah. And I was like, I'm not going.

So I canceled. Okay, great.

I did break the news to Jess yesterday that I didn't go.

And he was mad. Okay. And now I'm mad, I guess, because I still have, I, I thought I was better. And I have a little bit of a cough attack. But that's okay.

I'm going to edit all out. So no one's going to even know what we're talking about. It would be like, what are they talking about? One coffee. So I got the picture.

She, I, I pestered her. I said, sorry to be a pest.

“But you know, sometimes you have to be a pest in life.”

Yeah. Yeah. To get what you want. Yeah. Sorry to be a pest.

I just really want to get this book in today. And so she sent it to me. And great. That one's sent in. Perfect.

The sacred one sent in. I asked, I know, it's really pestering on a lot for those of you. Do you have any pictures of Chris and while she's on stage? Wow. You guys, you know, I got to finish this book today.

I did. She was like, what's going on? Yeah. What's the rush? Yeah.

And then the apartment. That was real. I, I reached out to a lot of people Anthony Alson, Rachel, Jess, Anna. But it was fun for me because I was going back through all my pictures and looking. And just like, man, have we changed?

Yeah. Yeah. Because you know what's really fun about the apartment? I moved in March of 2018. We started this show February of 2018.

Oh, wow. So it really bookmarks that time. Yeah. And it's really sweet to like see over the course of the past eight years. How much has changed?

Just as personally growing. But also just look wise. And go. Me the most, right? You look so different.

Yeah. But it not. You don't look older. You just look different because you've changed your body so much. I know.

“Do people think I have like reconstructive surgery?”

Well, you have. And I can. Yeah. We haven't done it. Yeah.

I've changed so much. It really. I feel like if you did it before and after a random picture from parenthood. And now. Yeah.

You could make some case that I've had like some kind of a face trans. Well, you put two pictures up one of DAX during parenthood and one of him at the golden glory. Or this morning. Did you dig in photos of me this morning?

I think actually I really did.

It was interesting because you know, I'm always like, why are you?

You don't need to like keep working out and whatever. But I've been noticing some other people aging. Uh-huh. You mean you shouldn't. We're going to rise.

You. You all right. Right. Okay. That's muscular and I get worried that it's it's causing you to have dysmorphia

and you know, but when I was going back in time and looking at these pictures and also simultaneously I'm watching some other people in this fear age. Yeah. I was going to do other pictures of people as I'm. Yeah.

As I'm. It's all right there. Yeah. I was like, oh, wow. He does look healthy.

Like, and that's good. So we probably should still continue on this path. So I have to give it to you. Oh, wow. Thank you.

“And I'll meet you halfway, which is, I think the area where it's going to be problematic.”

And this was in the Hawke duck. Oh. Okay. For the listener, we have a very beautiful picture of Daxon prison at the Golden Globes. And then Daxon.

Okay. You do look younger. Yeah. But you don't look old at all. Here.

It's a completely different. I look super masculine on the left and not on the right. You look very. My beard came in and since then, like I couldn't grow full beard back then. You look very boyish on on the right.

Yes. Can you? Sorry, Rob, because I know that you're like doing some cool like stuff. Yeah. I wonder if you can get a picture of Daxon prison at the chips premiere.

Yeah. Oh, wow. She's looking so good. Just perfect. She's doing great.

Yeah. That's a great hot and ended hot. [laughs] From A to Z. And I started at a six and went to a seven.

No, no, no, no, no. Yeah. I mean, a lot of it's just, I was, I was clean shaven a while. Yeah. She looks the same.

Yeah. Yeah.

You look like a horizontal hair.

I look like I could sell you a car in this photo from the chips premiere. I don't think so.

“Like when are you on the, are you have a large family sir, do you have many passengers?”

Do you carry normal? You guys watch the fact check. The fact check has visuals now. There's so many visuals. And like this episode's pretty visual heavy.

Yeah. So I would recommend coming and watching. And also look how fast Rob worked as magic. Yeah. He is good on a computer doesn't get better.

Okay. This is actually great because, well, you can't see your eyes. You're wearing sunglasses in the one on the left. Let me take them off. Take off the sunglasses and paint in my eyes.

But make them look, my current eyes, not eyes from chips. If I had Photoshop, I could. I got another one. No, it's okay. I mean, there must be a picture of you with that.

Your sunglasses. Oh, they're. You're wearing sunglasses there. Sometimes I do. Oh, wow.

Why not? Yeah. Sure.

Jack Nicholson always did.

Yeah. I mean, look, they look nice. I think he ever took his off outside of a movie. He's at the Lakers Game Endors. He's got his and interview.

He's got his shades on at all the award shows. Yeah. It's kind of cool. Oh, there we go. Very nice.

Okay. This is a picture without his sunglasses on. Yeah. I just look more like my dad. Wait.

What's happening? Why is Christmas? Oh, that was here before me. Years ago. This is from this year.

Is that? Yeah. So this is from a couple months ago. Okay. And the one on the right is from chips.

She looks the same. Actually wearing complementary outfits. I really like what's going on here. Yeah. The same dancers of green and black and purple.

Pretty. Okay. And it's the facial hair. But also, yeah, you look. It does look like your face has changed shape.

But it's because of the neck of wool. Yeah, the muscles. Yeah. Yeah. It's really interesting.

Oh, but I was going to say, watching the Hulk doc.

“The thing that I think could be in my future that's problematic is both the Hulk”

Hulk, Hulk and Doc in the Ronnie Coleman doc. Both these guys still lifting weights and they can't walk. No, you can walk. But they can barely walk. Right.

They have a cane. You can't get up off the machines. But he's still lifting a ton of weight. And I'm like, what's going on there? It's like you're still very strong.

But you can't walk. Yeah. And you just keep lifting weights because the idea of getting smaller. It seems terrible. Yeah.

And now that's a trap. I could definitely. Well, glad you saw that as a cautionary. Yeah. And you still walk pretty good.

Just had a curiosity now. I want to see. Can you show me the chips premiere and me at the Golden Globes? Okay. Yeah.

So on the left. We don't own that photo on the left. What? We don't own that photo on the left. There's a Miami on it.

The watermark color. We don't own that photo on the left. But we own the one on the right. We don't own either. We don't own either.

But um. Yeah. Do you think I look different? Everyone away. But pretty similar.

What do you think? I actually I look. I mean, I look. Yeah. I guess I look younger on the left.

“Because it looks like you're going to a nightclub.”

I do. I do. I know. I know. But I'm more.

I'm smiling with my teeth. Uh huh. Which is nice. Um. Your eyes are very dark.

Yeah. But my eyes are pretty dark on the right. Same thing here. I actually don't think I look that different. No.

No. But I just look like not younger. Yeah. I remember. But.

Interesting. I think I. I. I actually think I look better on the right. Okay.

No one here wants to comment on that. That's okay. You don't have to. You don't have to. But I do think.

You like how you're trending. Yeah. You look great in both. I don't know that we can really say. Which is better.

Just. A little different with some age. Yeah. And my features change. I mean, if you were smiling with your teeth in the right.

I think we would be a better comp. Right. But you've you've said goodbye to that. Right. We don't smile.

There are pictures. Okay. I do both. But there are people advise not to. I mean.

I don't really know the rules. Not necessarily.

It's just like, I never figured a mile.

It is supposed to. I think you're just like, it's like. More bodily. Yeah. Or she or whatever.

It's stupid. People should smile whenever I'm home with my friends at home. And we're taking group pictures. They always make fun. They always say Monica smile with your teeth.

Really? Even in group photos. Yes. So it's not just a red carpet thing. Yeah.

Now I'm just like used to doing it. So I. That's your natural. Now it's become a little more common when there's a camera to not smile with my teeth.

But these people who've known me my whole life are like absolutely not.

What's going on? Yeah.

“And I like how they're keeping me grounded.”

Give me grounded. That's right. All right. Should we do a little fact? Yes.

Okay. This is for Jack. Oh, for the people who. Haven't. Not guests or known or watched this episode.

This is the one where DAX dances. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. So hot off the presses.

Yeah. Which may or may not be in the episode. Yeah. We still don't know. We don't.

We'll see. But just reminding everyone Jack loved it. He's requested that. I do it at the end of every episode. So much so that he texted you as like really doubling down.

Please do that at the end. Yeah.

I don't know if it's all just a big trap to embarrass me.

Yeah. But I kind of trust him. Yeah. That's the guy. You had a beautiful knowledge of himself.

Yeah. I texted him then. He did. You know, obviously we didn't get into this in the episode. But Jack has a quite a list of.

Exlovers. Yes. Yes. And I get it. Sure.

Yeah. I get why. Yeah. He definitely makes you feel very seen. Mm-hmm.

He connects. He makes eye contact. He's asking questions. Um, that easy guys. It's literally that easy.

Literally that easy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But apparently it's not easy.

It's not easy. It's scary. It's scary. It boys are really scared when they're talking to a girly light. I know.

But you guys, you can do it. You can do it. You can do it. You just ask. No more lines to find.

There's no more tribes to fight off. Yeah. You're okay. Because the last thing you got to do that's, uh, risk. Risk heavy.

Mm-hmm. And you, you just look people in the eye. You ask questions. You do. You do need to be a little vulnerable.

Yeah. But he wasn't too vulnerable either. It wasn't like, we've had more. Yes. So, but I, I really, I understood it.

He connected. He's a duck duck goose. I was in my bedroom and I could overhear Tyrell getting a massage. Uh-huh. And this was an hour into the massage.

And as I, like walk through my bedroom, I could hear him in there. Asking her a million questions. He's still talking to her, summers, he's incredible.

And I literally thought like, oh, yeah, Tyrell, who's women of always like.

Yeah. Um, is very engaged and just asking questions and curious. It's curious. Yeah, yeah. And she's married in all, but I was just like, all right.

“That's what that's how people like each other is.”

You think the phrase curiosity killed the cat is the reason. Like all of all of these men are confused. No. I just think for some reason. It's counterintuitive.

But I think for some reason men don't know what to ask. Like they think it's more complicated than it is. Yeah. Or they, I think maybe they feel like they should have the answers. So they don't need time to like show them more kind of a catch.

Right. Right. You don't need to do that. No. And, oh, for people who are definitely going to ask, I want to cut this off at the pass.

Last week, I think it was when I said, I engaged with something that a lot of people like, but I didn't like. Or maybe I even said I was reading something. Yeah. It is not lean as book. Oh, okay.

It's not lean as books. Okay. I know that's going to happen. I think people are going to assume that. Okay.

I am reading it. And that is not what I was talking about. Okay. Right. All right.

Topo cheeko shortage. Yeah. Let's talk about it. Let's talk. Okay.

Shortage is going to last in the summer of 2026. That's this summer. Yeah. Why is it happening? Coca-Cola conducted maintenance on the bottling factory and found geology issues in the source wells.

Oh, boy. All right. I can't be great if you've bought a company. And it's all dependent on one source well. But you didn't figure out if that wells.

It's geology. This is like ding ding ding to your peptide. Your peptide was rancid. Your peptide wasn't rancid. And that we know of.

But you're something in the bio was a bottle. Oh, good. Yeah. This is weird. This happened to you twice.

“Remember when you had that like rancid water flavored water.”

And you got it. That the ranch. Yeah. And you got a. Crazy.

Honest. And puking. Yeah. Food poisoning. Food poisoning.

Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. You got crazy food poisoning. Yeah.

But everyone else was fine. Oh. Like other people drank those and no one else had a problem. I thought it was in your trailer and it was like. It was just this brand with this flavor anytime I had it.

Oh. Oh. That was a one off batch. Oh, I thought it was.

I've gotten sick. Oh, my God.

There's just something specific.

I'm allergic to it. So then, then we, then it isn't food poisoning. It's you have an allergy. I guess.

“I think anyone else complaining about it.”

Interesting. And there's big gaps in times when I've tried the product. Really? You sure you try to again? Why would you do that?

For fun. I think it was like, I think it was like, like, one of the normal water companies. Made flavored water for me. Right. Right.

It was those. Yeah. And one of the flavors black cherry or something. No. Okay.

I mean, yeah, because it wasn't just honest. You, you're fully. Growing up. Food poisoning. Yeah.

Yeah. Not good. Okay. We are young release date. September 20th, 2011.

I was a fact. Okay. What is the rom-com movie that mentions the hind slogan? It's probably what DAX said. Arthur II on the rocks.

The sequel to the 1981 hit. Starting deadly. More and lies in Manelli. The film references the famous marketing slogan. Heinz 57.

Number two in the world. And that ain't bad. Other options. Agent Cody banks too. Destination London.

Also lightly mentions Heinz. But it isn't a rom-com. Other famous ones are when hearing met Sally. But that's just product placement. Okay.

That's standard.

“What year has Jack been at Grammys with multiple album of the year awards?”

But in this position three times. Wow. That's awesome. Wow.

He was the first person to ever be nominated in all three major categories.

Album record and song of the year. Whoa. For two different artists in the same night in 2026. Hmm. The only other people who've been nominated for multiple albums.

And album of the year is Serbian Genia. Hmm. This feels a little bit like the Spotify list. Okay. For Al.

Sure. And Tom Elmhurst. Oh. I don't know Tom Elmhurst. Neither.

Years. He had multiple nominations in album of the year category. 2020. He did not win. This one is a technicality because he was not technically nominated.

But he did produce a second album on the list. Norma fucking Rockwell won't want to dull Ray. And then Arizona baby Kevin abstract. 2024. He won with midnight.

Taylor Swift and did you know that there's a tonal under Ocean Boulevard. Want to dull Ray. 2025. He did not win. Torture poets the Primant Taylor Swift short and sweet Sabrina Carpenter.

Woof. 2026. I know. But they didn't win. Oh.

Okay. 2026.

He did not win man's best friends.

Sabrina Carpenter. Gen X Kendrick Lamar.

“Man he is amazing albums under his belt.”

This is so cool. No. He's kind of the producer of the last decade. I know. I know.

I know. What's so cool. Okay. The president of Ukraine. This is insane.

Yeah. Yeah. Volodymium. So it is. So it's not Vladimir.

It's very close. We knew that. We just. Honest mistake. Honest mistake.

Yeah. Honest mistake. Think. Okay. Those are facts for Jack.

Hi. I've done. He was really great. Yeah. Great.

I really enjoyed him too. He's a real artist. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

He is a. That's exactly right. He's a real artist. And how should I say it? I probably shouldn't say it.

But I'm thinking I'm gonna. Okay. I think being a real artist. Truly madly deeply. TLC.

Mm-hmm. Is a bit of a burden. Of course. Yeah. All of these phenomenal writers wrestle with depression and anxiety.

Yeah. I think it goes hand in hand. It's a lie. I'm going to sit in a room with uncomfortable emotions and convert them into something. And like it's a need that must be met.

The need to create. Yeah. It has to be met. In a way that's different from me or I won't say you. Yeah.

You can say me. Me or you, right? Who are creative? Yeah. The only place I've ever felt it is just writing.

Or it's like there have been things I have to sit down and write. Yeah. I love it. I love writing and have written. And I love creating things.

But I don't feel like I'll die if I don't. Right. Yeah. And I have too much fun with other people. Yeah.

I can do other things in this life. Yeah. And not cease to exist. Yeah. But he is one of those in the category.

Like he just has to. He has to do this. This is a ding ding ding. I happened to read this this morning. That Michael Jackson one time called. The guy was producing his album at like three.

And said, wake everyone up. Get them to the studio right now. Yeah. And when he was there.

The reason they had to come tonight is that.

God sends songs down. Yeah. And if he doesn't catch it. Prince will see.

“He's literally like either he's going to catch this song right now.”

Or Prince is going to.

So he has to wake up and do this before Prince catches it.

Yeah. It's really. And I think he believed that. Yeah. Yeah.

And then I know who's to say it's not true.

“But I've done we talked on of these super prolific.”

Yeah. I don't think song writers are all describing it the same way. Exactly. Yeah. Who am I to say it's the other way?

Yeah. Wow. And I'm grateful. These people who I do think in general suffer a little more.

And then give us these incredible.

Me too. I have a lot of compassion for these artists because their. Their brains are working in a much different way. And that has bad fate. There are bad things to that.

Yeah. But then we get to like benefit from their genius. Yeah.

“And we also have so many opinions about all of them, right?”

Yeah. Yeah. Well, they should behave. Yeah. Just maybe not fair.

All right. Well, that is it. All right. Love you. [MUSIC PLAYING]