Tara Stoinski Returns (primatologist)

I'm Dax Shepherd, and I'm joined by Monica Padman. Hi. And today we have Returning Primentologist Tara Stoinksky. She is the CEO and Chief Scientific Officer of the Dianfase Gorilla Fund.

And she worked closely on this incredible documentary that I saw.

Really importantly, by the director of my octopus teacher. Yeah. And Champemper, maybe my favorite animal talk I've ever seen. And this new documentary is called a Gorilla Story. And there's the most insane footage in it. What they captured over these a couple years there filming is incredible.

It's so good. She's so knowledgeable. And, you know, these are highly endangered, beautiful treasures on Planet Earth. So if you're inclined, please go to the Dianfase Gorilla Fund and support that. Please enjoy Tara Stoinksky. Yes, thank you.

Yeah, so good to have you here in this amazing space. Where did you travel from? Atlanta. What have you said we'll wander? No, no, no.

There are a couple weeks ago, but now came from Atlanta this time.

“What part of Atlanta, you know, Monica's in Atlanta?”

Yeah, last time.

I'm from outside Philly, but I've been in Atlanta for 30 plus years.

You sound like Monica's mom. Really? Yes, you don't hear it. Oh my god, I don't hear it. Oh, listen for it.

I got some combination of like the Philly Atlanta Accent or something. Oh my gosh, I don't hear it at all, but you know, you can't like hear your mom. No, your mom just doesn't know. Yeah, you can't even hear yourself. I can remember back in the days of answering machines.

Yes. One time like playing an answering machine and there was this person like, hey, it was like for my husband, boyfriend at the time, probably. And they're like, hey, honey, how you doing? Wonder what you're doing later?

I'm like, who is this woman? Oh, why? I was calling my head, it was my God. Oh my God, I can't recognize my own boy. I don't know if you're like, I can't go back and listen to anything I've done.

“I went and listened to you our last podcast, so I wouldn't like repeat myself.”

But it was painful for me and then I was like, oh, there's a transcript. I could just read it and not have to listen to myself. We have to, we have to get used to it at some point. I started doing that.

I listened to like a third of it, so we went and repeat ourselves.

It was Zoom, but I was like, I didn't like Zoom. I mean as much as it was lovely. It's so different. Yeah. It's so different.

I'm speaking in that one as if you are on the other end of a soup can in a string. Am I not? I know. Like, I'm shouting at Florida. Yes, sounds like I can't do this.

And who cares if I repeat myself? Yeah, because maybe some people who haven't heard the first one need some background. So, okay, so you're in Atlanta. Are you in a suburb by mine? No, I am just east of downtown, so grant park.

Like right here, you're in a pool area, yeah. It's great because I'm super convenient to the airport, which is where I feel like I spend a lot of my advice. Yeah. And how old are your daughters now?

So my daughters now are 19 and 17. Oh, my. Wow. So I've won in college. She's a sophomore in college.

And the other one, we are deciding in the next, she's deciding in the next few weeks where she'll be a college. May I suggest? A great question. We got into Georgia, which we were thrilled about.

So fun. Got into tech. Less fun. Yeah. That is good.

That is good. Probably considered better. Very sciencey. In scenario. Yeah.

Like engineering. Maybe we'll give it an engineering. I'm a park grad, so I have to go for tech. But she, from the start, it's been like I really want to go out of state with our whole family being from the Northeast.

So I don't think she's going to end up in, okay, well, no, she's out of body, too. She's going to end up back there. So we'll see. And how does the 19 year old bike come? Oh, my God.

So she is a sophomore at Duke, and has drunk the Duke. Cool aid. She loves it. I've gotten really into Duke basketball now. And I've been surprised at how heartbroken I have been when they didn't end up going

all the way. And I already, I'm a big fan of the Philadelphia Eagles, so I feel like I already have my heartbreak even though we did win the Super Bowl recently. I'm like, I can't take on another stress team.

“Like I think the house had to go for a walk after this game.”

And at halftime, she was like, if we win the whole thing, so they lost, they didn't make it to the final four this year. They were number one ranking team. So she's texting me, like, I'm going to get a tattoo if they win, and I saw what she put it on Instagram, and then she went, well, that didn't age very well.

That's also for you, built-in win win.

Either they win in your delight in, or they lose in your daughter's event tattoo.

Exactly. Yeah.

“I think you could enter that one, like, very, I'm going to win either way.”

I'm not to blame her, but she might have caused a lot of superstitions in our house. We dress our dogs for all the Eagles games. They wear eagles gear, and then if they're not winning, they have to switch jerks and see. Yeah. It's fun to care.

Yeah. It is. You have several alma monitors. I do. Yeah.

Which are they? So did my undergrad degree at Tufts University in Boston? Did a master's in biology at University of Oxford in England? And then did my PhD at Georgia Tech? Not even pushing for that, even though you--

I don't think it's the right school for her. She's not interested in science. And the other thing is her three closest friends are all going there. Yeah. And I'm really proud of her.

She really kind of wants to break out and do something new. And that's been something she's been saying for a couple of years. So I mean, I would love her to go to Tech. It's two miles from my house.

I told her, I'm like, I never go to Tech's campus.

I'm not going to come and bug you, but you can come home if you want. You can visit the dogs, but I'm very proud of her for wanting to go off and have some in contact with Tech's in the city. It's not-- Tell me more. In the city, if she wants to have best of both worlds,

she can just go to Athens. She's an hour away and she's changed. I know. And it's so fun. I don't know, last time you drove from Athens to Atlanta,

but I think that's a lot of change. But even in orange. I think there's no idea. These are in the change ads, of course. No, it's really close, actually.

Yeah. Yeah, for my parents has two Athens. It's like, man, hour and 10 minutes. Well, but Atlanta, proper. I just went, I just gave a lecture up there a couple of weeks ago.

And, yeah, it's not that bad. I mean, you go through cow country. Oh, yeah. Yeah, through the country. Yeah, they're better.

You see a lot. Athens proper, it's really cute. It's so cute. And your husband was he very academic. He was a lawyer.

And no one's heading into-- The older one, for sure. Oh, yeah. She's a great-arguer. She'll be fabulous at it.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

“She's interested, I think, also an international law diplomacy, which you always”

wonder what your kids see, what maps onto them. And neither of them want to do science, per se. But they spent their whole childhoods going to rewind it with me. And so I think that part of it, she really likes just going to do a semester in Madrid and the fall.

And so I could see her heading in that direction, not like straight up, corporate law or something. OK. So back to what is your normal yearly schedule look like? Yeah, I am usually in rewind about once a quarter.

And that has been kind of dictated by my kids, because the been a single mom since they were six and four. So during the school year, trying not to be gone for more than three weeks at a time. In rewind, I do a lot of travel in the US

as well for conferences or meet with donors. And then in the summers, we go for a longer period of time, because they would come with me. So we'd be there for six weeks or so. So we have like a communal house.

It's like being in college again. Sometimes we have 12 to 15 people living in it. Three bathrooms. So it's very interesting. Especially when you get the teenage girls in there as well.

But when they were little, they would stay home. They would play in the garden. Because they can't go to see the girl is. We're not like in the forest proper. We're outside the forest.

What's the age limit? Curie 15? Because I was watching with my daughters last night, the doc. And I have been telling our oldest daughter who's very interesting going to Africa.

I've been telling her since she was three. When you're 16, when you're 16, as I was watching, I was like, I'm not sure if you're allowed at 16, but this is delightful. So 15 and up you can go.

But yeah, so they both have now gone just in the last few years to see the girl is. There was no sneaky snake. No, no sneaky snake. She was so rude.

But yeah, you imagine you're traveling all the way to a Rwanda as a little kid in spending 10 years there and not seeing the girl is. I mean, they must have been like, let's go. And they've been on safari so they got to see the other stuff.

But the girl is themselves.

Yeah, they just saw for the first time recently.

So they're like in the garden in there. Yeah, they're just hang out. Well, the thing is particularly in the summertime, like a lot of researchers come over. So they've got friends from all over the country.

They would see the same people again. Sometimes people bring their kids. So they had like a little cohort of folks that they would hang out with. And then starting in high school, my older daughters

like, can I go to summer camp instead? Yeah. The younger one, though, last summer was probably her last summer and she was sad. She really loves it there.

Yeah. It's just comfort zone for her. It's something she's familiar with. If the pizza place closes, that she goes to, we have two pizza places in town.

Of course, two girls, one likes one pizza place. The other pizza place. I'm so confident. I will say my younger daughter, she's a peacemaker. She very much is my husband's personality.

OK. So she's a peacemaker. So if the older one really wants something, she's like fine. OK, this is a sad question now. But it's very obvious to me that I'm thinking about it now.

So our younger daughter, to me, is like a carbon copy of my wife. I mean, there's so similar, it's crazy. And because of that, there's been a lot of interesting things. One just being a weird, I get to kind of parent a younger version of my wife.

“And I want to give her everything I think my wife deserved.”

There's just a lot of weird things in mix. So because your husband's past, is that you think compound that, where it's like she's also the last living thing

In a lot of ways. And it's funny.

“One of the things, she's super empathetic.”

And she doesn't want to see anyone get hurt.

Doesn't want to see any animals get hurt. I lead with my head. And so does my older daughter. And she very much leads with her heart. And my husband led with his heart.

And it used to frustrate me because I want to know what's happening in the news. I want to know what's happening in the world. And he would be like, Tara, I don't want to watch it. And it would irritate me because I'm like, how do you

not want to know what's going on? But it physically hurt him. And this big six foot four guy, I didn't get that. But now I see it. I can see it in my little one.

I'm like, oh, this is how you're wired. And this really does pain you to see others in distress. She's a different nervous system. Yeah, completely. Yes, and he did.

I feel like I understand him better in some ways, getting to parent her. This is a great transition. So in the documentary, there's all kinds of gruesome moments. Yeah, I'm imagining I'm looking at it like you.

“I'm like, yeah, and also this is how it works.”

Like, let's just start with this is how it works. So there's going to be a lot of gnarlyness along the way. I even said to them beforehand, anticipate this could happen. And fanoside is likely to follow this event. We just said, like, just buckle, or watch him at this good

happen. But, okay, let's start with. There was a great doc took six years to make. It's called The Grillest Story, told by David Atmoral. So how did you get brought in to work with this team to do this?

It was great. It was during COVID. I can still remember like sitting in my living room. And we were connected to Silverback films, which is a funny name for the film company, because of the Silverback girl list.

We got on the film with them, and they were like, what's happening with The Grillest? What would make a good story? And I was with a colleague of mine, Veronica Vachelio, who is kind of like the modern day Diane Posse. She's lived in Rwanda for 20 years, knows he's grill is in and out. She doesn't go home anywhere, or she's full-time there.

Yeah, she's full-time there. She's from Rwam originally. She's one of our two non-Rwanda staff that are based there. So we're like, really the story of Pablo's group. It's such a phenomenal group.

It broke every record.

There's just such an amazing story that's never been told.

“So that's what we kind of pitched to them.”

And then it worked out so well that the executive producer of the film, actually have worked with David Atmoral for a number of years. So he went back to him, and then there's this iconic scene where when David went to Rwanda in 1978, I think. He was there to do a story about the opposable thumbs, so this very technical anatomical

story. He thought he was going to be watching from afar. They were going to get some close-ups of the opposable thumbs. And he's sitting there on all of a sudden, this three-year-old little fluffball comes and just sits in his eyes.

Oh my God. That's just like laying all over him and David's laying on his back and like he's laughing. And bubbles just kind of squirming around his eyes. He was the gorilla. Yeah.

Little boy gorilla. How old was he? He was three. It's the dream interaction. And you're not supposed to have it, but boy.

And we don't anymore. Right? Like that was back in the day when we didn't realize how susceptible they were to our illnesses. So now we try and stay a distance from them. But yeah, I mean, he describes it as probably the most iconic moment in his history of

filmmaking. And he's turning a hundred next month. Wow. Okay. Great.

So that's something I want to address right away. Yeah. And I'm taking notes as we watch. But I missed what year that footage was from life on earth, one of his stocks. And my daughter says, oh, it was 50 years ago.

But I'm watching him present day be interviewed about this project. And I'm like, no, I had to be 30 years ago. Because he looks like he's maybe 85. Oh. And yet, next month he turns a hundred.

That's why. And Monica, he's speaking so articulately about this experience. Yeah. Well, just vibrant and alert, I'm like, this do might see one 30. Right.

Exactly. I hope.

But I mean, it's amazing, Monica, because he took journals.

And so he has the whole description of getting to meet the guerrillas of getting to meet Pablo. So to get him then to come on and narrate the story, because his voice is also just so iconic. Yeah.

Unfortunately, he didn't get out to be there with the filming. And that group is really hard to film. So what ended up happening was he did that series. And then that was group five at the time. So it was one of the original groups that Diane Posse started studying.

And then in 1993, the silver back of that group died in the group split. It went into Shindra's group and Pablo's group. And so Pablo actually formed his own group. He became a big silver bat. Yeah.

At that point, he was 18. So he was like, I'm taking all of these individuals and formed his own group. Pablo's been dead since 2008, but that group is still called Pablo's group. I imagine it's kind of like, when you get hooked for like kickball. Okay.

I know there's two captains, like I'll take you. Yeah. The ones that took Pablo for smart. Yeah. Well, Pablo picked.

Yeah. And then some of them probably snuck over there. Okay. I was going to say, how does that work? Is it just seamless or are they fight over it?

Well, it's a big plot point in this doc as the story unfolds.

Mal decided to form a partnership instead of get de throned, which was really unique. Yeah. We haven't seen that many of these dominance transfers for one meal to the other. And we actually didn't get to observe that one, because it happened 9495, which was right at the height of the genocide in Rwanda.

So we weren't in the forest or the teams weren't in the forest every day like we are normally. So when they sort of came back and could observe the group, canceby had taken over dominance. Like Pablo stayed in the group, the two of them were very aligned and the support that they gave each other. Let this group grow to 65 animals, which an average girl of family is 10 into 10.

So way way bigger, the biggest group of girl is ever recorded anywhere.

And it's definitely come down in size since them, but it just achieved all of these amazing

records. Because of this partnership. Yeah. Because of this partnership. Also at the time he was recording that original doc, he said of all the animals he had

ever interacted with. This was by far when you look in a gorilla's eyes, the thing he felt like there was the most humanness for lack of a better word of any animal he'd ever, and at that point he had looked every animal in the eyes, presumably. And at the time there was 250 in that area, we called the Varunga area.

So it's three countries, Congo, Rwanda, Uganda, they were down to 250. And so it's a thousandish today. It is. There's 600 in that population. And then there's another population that at the time, he was there actually wasn't

being studied there in Uganda and there's 400. So across the two, there's a thousand, but where he was, it's gone from 250 to 600. Which is great. But it's taken 40 plus years to do that.

And that's just the island or all.

Just mountain gorillas. Okay. So right away, I have a question about having such a tiny genetic pool. And I'm curious, I feel like either were overly scared of inbreeding or gorillas are unique. What is going on?

“Why aren't we seeing like a ton of genetic defects in what not, and such a small gene pool?”

It's a great question. And we do know that they're inbreed. Like when we go to do paternity work, we have to get a lot more genetic information to be able to figure out who the dad is than you would in a population that maybe hadn't had so much inbreeding.

And we do see things like we see webbing between their fingers and their toes. Sometimes they have, we call them wall eyes where their eyes don't line up in the center. Who be? It's cross-eyed as a water-fucker. Yeah.

We're like, we're so cute. We're going like, where am I? Where are we? I mean, he is.

And that's because of that.

Yeah, we think it's probably because of the embroidery. Oh, wow. I think the worry is, of course, if you have a disease that enters into the population, and when animals don't have a lot of genetic diversity, and you only have a thousand of them, it could be really devastating.

And what about the problem of kind of recessive disorders? Yeah. Other than those things, we haven't seen too much of that. The good news is over the past decade or so. When I started working in that park, there were seven families of guerrillas.

That was in the early 2000s. Now there's 24 families of guerrillas. Oh, really? Yes. They were living in kind of bigger groups in those groups are fissioning.

But what it means is that more males, because there's a dominant male in each of those groups, more males are getting to breed. So you're sort of spreading out the genetics a little bit more than when you had them living in kind of these super groups of 65 animals. Right.

And the other males in those groups aren't allowed to breed. They do. They have to like sneak it in. Thank you. Yes.

Sneaky sneaky. And actually, what's really interesting. So canceby and Titus, another male that a movie was made out of, they were mean dominant in their group. But for the last eight years, they didn't actually sign our offspring.

Again, so it went Pablo to canceby, canceby to get chorossi. And that's kind of where the modern day story starts. And this movie, get chorossis, the dominant male. And he was siring all the offspring for the last five, six, seven years of canceby's life. But canceby was totally still dominant.

That older statesmen was very well respected. The females really bonded around him.

“I think one of the things this movie shows and we see is that we think a lot about the”

males and gorillas because they have all that size and strength. But alliances and particularly who the females like and who they follow and who they support plays a much bigger role in gorillas society than I think we initially realized 40 years ago. It's about the ladies.

Beautifully dogmented in this. So yeah, we meet pronounce his name again. It's so hard for me. Get chorossi. I know.

And these are actually the easy can you're going to name some of them like 27 letters long. We were really lucky. All the main characters had relatively easy names in this film. I was so happy.

Okay. So when we start the doc, get chorossi is the silverback of this group. And there are how many members. 18. 18.

So it's pretty good size. It's good size. But think about it went from 65 all the way down to 18.

“I think the smallest it ever was was 17.”

It's still almost twice a normal gorilla family. But it's much smaller than what we were used to. Okay. So, and then we meet a booze and Monica a booze, a mini ear like oh shit. He is a male that's coming into his size.

And it's just so obvious for a long time before it happens. The look on his face at all times is mad doggy. He's mad doggy. Everybody he looks. He looks so angry and grumpy.

I don't know what's going on biochemically with him. He's probably peaked test us. Exactly. 18 year old male.

“So he's just got hormones going everywhere and when's it going to be my chance?”

And now what's really heartbreaking is there's another male and how old is it? And for around what's probably around 13 when we started filming. Okay. So five years younger still a big male but not as big as booze. And then booze to show his strength and prowess starts bullying.

I hate him. By the way, you watched him empire. Remember the whole arc of you hate that dominant male and then you realize like, "Oh, he's so lonely." I know, but I still.

And then he's everyone wants to kill him and he's got to go first in a band. He's going like, "No, it's a shit job." I know. It's a shit job. It's a shit job.

Yes. The adolescents are having fun. The ladies have fun. He doesn't have to take that job. He has to work.

Yeah. He's been designing to take that job. I think Pablo was like, "Hey, man, I'm going to let him in. Can't speak.

Take a lot of the strength. Right. And be around and reap all the benefits." Yeah. You could maybe take a little bit of a thing.

Yeah. Pablo was leading with charisma. Like a human.

You can see charisma in a powerful space.

There's a line in the movie that's like, "Gerilla males don't lead by strength alone." And that is so true.

“Obviously, you need to have a certain size and strength.”

And part of the reason that a booze who was able to take over was that getteross he was sick. And so he had a few days where he wasn't well, he was kind of staying behind the group. And those males are smart. Right.

And he saw that. And he went in and took advantage of that. What do they do? It's gnarly. And again, back to Enfuru, Enfurura.

Enfurura. Enfurura. Enfurura. Good luck, Max. Enfurura.

Again. He's taken a couple from Enfuru. Before Enfuruzu challenges getterossy. So his whole bottom of his chin is sliced up. And the full top of his head where you can see his skull is just wide open from the incisers.

And just these two 400 pound gorillas just kind of wrestling, but there's tons of biting going on. And they captured it. That was the crazy thing.

So just as a funny aside, when we first got on the call with these folks, so the director

was the director of Chimp Empire. That footage is, that's come out since you and I. Yes, yes. And I don't know if you saw it, but like two days ago. There's a big war going on.

Yeah. That's the war. Oh, it is. Eight years. Three years.

Three, twenty. Yeah. That's been an eight year war. It's crazy. But so they had film chimps.

The executive producer had worked on Disney Nature and film chimpanzee movie. And so it was very funny because one of the first things they said to us, and you have to imagine this in a lovely British accent, which I'll pretend to do, but I can't really do. Tara.

Do gorillas actually do enough to make an entire film about them.

“Veronica and I are on the phone and we're like, what?”

How can you say that to Gorilla people? Yeah. You're like, oh, it's our whole life. But you're kind of right. They are like big cows in a way, right?

Like they eat, they sleep. So they show up to film and literally within like two days of filming this dominant shift starts to happen. Wow. Do you think these guys are starting it?

What's the same read the director? James Reed, that's James Reed. James Reed, that's James Reed. Yeah, so he's been pretty locked right. He shows up with the chimps.

So now we see this 100 on 100 true fight. But they say this vision that's happening. I was just reading about it this morning. This vision that's happening in the chimps, then the community fully splits.

They think it's about a one in every 500 year event. No, when they look at the genetics. What? It's crazy. Are they documenting that?

Yes. I think they kind of came in sort of in the middle of it. I don't know when they film chimpen pyre exactly. But it was already going on when they started filming. There had been the split and it was gaining momentum.

But it was a smaller group and then they were starting to change the main group. What's crazy to me about that is that. So the way that chimps live, they have it, what they call a community.

And the whole community is sort of never together.

So they all associate in this community. But today, I'm hanging out with you tomorrow. You're with Kristen and I'm with Dax. And then the next day, all four of us are hanging out. And then eventually this community split.

And now the western side is coming back to kill their former community members. Oh my God. And this had only been documented once before with Jane Goodall. But at the time with Jane Goodall, she had provisioned the chimps so that they would get used to her.

So she had kind of like put bananas out so that they would get used to her presence. And so there was a lot of criticism. So you caused all this aggression by putting this high value resource in the middle. So there were some skepticism about whether this was like really natural.

But this is completely natural. Why it just no one knows, no one really knows, yeah. What's really interesting and cool about gorillas is we've been able to show that it's not like that at all. So we have families that fission and when they come back together,

But for the most part, they'll come together, they'll play, they'll interact with each other.

And this can be 10 years after a split. So a lot of the composition has changed.

“And so I think chimps are really interesting for looking at more of the warfare side of humans.”

And gorillas may be more for this kind of multi-level society where you can maintain relationships. Even if it's not in your core family group that you're with on a day-to-day basis. We could also get into, there's a lot of explanations for that. A, the groups are much, much bigger for chimps. So if they're like 100 member groups, they have a much different mating strategy, right?

We're all the males are competing with each other. Hence the enormous testicles we talked about last year. And she said you can't even find a gorilla. You can't even find a gorilla. If we don't see the genitalia of a baby gorilla right after it's born because they're so fuzzy,

we generally oftentimes don't know until they reach 10 or 11 if it's a male. Because males and females are the same exact size in gorillas until eight. And then they're growth charts really diverse. So we have had these females that were really interested in mating when they were like 11, 12, and then suddenly we were like, "Oh, because they're not females, or males."

Oh, wow. So that's how difficult it is. They also go to one of the biggest growths from births, right? So they born at four pounds and become 450. That'd be like humans becoming 800 pounds. It's crazy.

Oh my God. So yeah, the gorillas showed up. We were worried, are they going to do a lot?

“And I think at the time they thought they might use a lot of archival footage.”

And then interspersed it with the modern day. And then they got so much. I mean, it's the most like gorillas have ever been filmed. I think they had 250 filming days. But Rwanda's really strict about time spent with the gorillas to protect the gorillas.

So that 250 days was one hour at that time. Oh my God. One hour at a time. So to be there and be lucky enough to get these moments on film is just crazy. Always impossible.

And these gorillas, the filmmakers don't stay in the forest. So they're in and out. They have one of the highest elevation ranges. So they're climbing 3 to 4,000 feet a day with their equipment to get to the gorillas. Filming them coming back out.

So back to this story. So in Buzu is really bullied in Fura a bunch of times. And it's really, really sad. And as he gets bullied more, he starts getting excluded more from the group. He had this one who would be little infant, I don't know, an infant child.

He was infant. Was his buddy and they played.

And he was playing in the mom came over and basically looked at me.

He was like, you can't play with the baby anymore. And he knew, no, this is horrible. It's horrible, it's so heartbreaking. And then he is intermittently in and out. He's on the fringe and then he'll wander.

There's a year of him just being in this kind of purgatory of. He's not really in the group. But he's still trying to check him with the group. And in that time, the Buzu does attack. Get your Aussie.

Get your Aussie. When he was sick, as you said. When he was sick, yeah. And at first, the females still really align with Geturasi. They follow him.

He loses the fight. Geturasi loses the fight. Geturasi loses the fight. Even despite the fact that he lost the fight, the females stay. Tata.

Tata. She stays. And she's kind of the leader of the females. She stays very aligned with the women. And so he can keep his dominance.

I think these females are really smart. They need these males to protect their infants. Because they are susceptible, generally from males, from other families that will come in and target their babies. So Geturasi's health was not great.

And they probably could see the writing on the wall. And so they did transfer allegiance to a Buzu. But Geturasi stayed in the group. Oh, okay. Did sort of what Pablo had done.

Stayed in the group and helped support the group. And keep that group together. Stay tuned for our share expert. If you dare, we are supported by all state. Checking all state first could save you hundreds on car insurance.

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North Park Illinois. And what's kind of interesting to Monica is a Buzu goes from this scowel. And he's so menacing looking. And it's funny because once he has the title, I don't know if I'm imagining or projecting, he can relax.

And he's now more playful with some of the infants. And is this the whole demeanor change? Yes. He doesn't seem to be bullying anyone else. What about that other guy?

Well, this is what the crazy moment is. Yeah, yeah. OK, and I got to ask you. OK, so the Buzu finally reproduces.

“But he reproduces with a very important FEMA.”

And this is the answer. You're a question from Tementia.

Yeah, I'm gay. Yeah, I'm gay.

“So what's interesting, I thought of you because she is a female that moved”

into the Pablo family.

So males can't move between families but females can.

So she moved into Pablo's family from the Sousa group, which is the group that you saw. And you went to her window. Oh, why? Yeah, I mean, never. I met her.

She probably wasn't born because she was young. She had bread. Females will usually leave their family around nine. She left it sick. Oh, my God.

Which is pretty young. And it's oftentimes hard. It's a little bit like human society like when a new female comes in. They get a little bit bullied by the other females. Because it's kind of competition.

The males want to pay a lot of attention to them. They're young, et cetera. Well, also just something new. Yeah, I don't know. But she gets pregnant and she has a baby.

And that automatically elevates her status.

Because everyone wants to be around the baby.

Oh, they love babies. They love babies. It's so cute. But it's all documented her coming in. And it's scary.

They just walk over. Oh, why are they doing this without words? I don't understand. And she just starts kind of being at a distance than closing that gap.

And then she can figure out and delineate that it's tater that is the alphas as slowly she works her way over to her. And then tater lets her play with one of her babies. And she's like, OK, I'm solid. Then Embuzu is now the champ.

And she gets into Astros. So they have a little baby. And again, now she's in the group. He's in the group. OK, so many questions about your theories on this.

So then the bullied one in for a comes. Well, we don't know this yet. What we know is her baby skill. And it is, what happens when you exclude people? We're going to get into this whole, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

You do bad stuff. Yes. But here's what's crazy. And I wanted to know. Buzu was out mating with a woman.

He was distracted. OK, I got cheating. Because I got nine things right in this little section. One is chip males are trying to blast all day long. And there's a leopard over there.

You know, they're constantly because they're competing. But now interestingly, because Embuzu has all access. And there is nine of them in one of him. He seems pretty disinterest. The female who's in estrus is like, she's got some leaves.

She's like, check out my leaves. And she's doing all this stuff.

And he's literally staring at her and finally like, all right.

And I'm like, that's already upside down from the chimps. Do you find it?

“Those males are disinterested in sex more than other animals?”

The females put on a show. Like, they come and they stradid. They have, like, their sexy face. They do. They're like, oh, they're like a fine.

But you know, they, well, you said because it elevates their status to have a baby to have a baby. So that makes sense. And also if they're penis is too dry. So he's off doing that. And then, and furrow comes and kills this baby.

We don't know it. But everyone in the group knows that the babies been cut all the females are gathered around. They're mourning it. And you can see that Embuzu, he knows he fucked up. Yeah.

And he could lose the confidence. They do the thing about mountain gorillas of the four types of gorillas. So really the only ones that live in these multimale groups. So if you look at the other three types, they generally just have one adult male. Because they live in this forest with tons of food, their social structure is different.

But I don't think, like, it's caught up with them evolutionarily. So there's not supposed to be all these males living together. And so they haven't quite figured it out yet. The dominant male normally does most of the siren, but younger males can do it. And I think we talked about this last time that they have this vocalization they do.

And they populate. And these younger males will sneak off with the females. And they're hidden in the bushes. But they still make this vocalization. Like they can't not make it.

Yeah, we all understand the dominant males. Like, oh, wait, what's happening? And you're going to get smacked for that, even if it happens. It's like, they're not trying to let that happen right now. No, unless it's really young females, they generally well.

Because a lot of times those females might have been their daughter. No one, the dominant male's daughter. Or the females go through this period of adolescent sterility. Where they're copulating, but they don't actually get pregnant. And so one strategy a dominant male could have would be to let these younger guys practice.

And it's not really any cost him. Because some males will stay in the group they're born in their whole life. And that's when you get the Pablo canceby situation. And those groups fear really well. Because if the dominant male dies, you've got someone right there to keep the group together.

Other males strike out on their own. And we found that what decides whether or not a male will stay is number one. Does it get to practice? Copulating. So having that opportunity to practice is important.

Even if he's not necessarily making babies.

“And number two, I think is really interesting is if his mom is still in the group.”

So even these 400-pound males, they don't like hang out with their moms. But their moms are probably a social lubricant for them, like giving them access to the dominant male. So if you don't have your mom and you're not getting to practice, you're much more likely to say, well, I'm just going to strike out on my own.

And see if I can attract some females to join me from another female.

Okay, so what's wild in this part?

“I don't know, there's some kind of dissonance between how smart they are.”

And the fact that they don't have language. So the baby's dead, what you can also see Monica feel a closer. They don't call it out. But she clearly fought to save the baby. Because she's in jail.

And she still has the baby. And she still has the baby. And they will hold those babies for a long period of time. Like weeks. Two long.

And so everyone knows this has happened. Emboos is like, I fucked up. I could lose my group. But she can't tell them who did it. Yeah.

It's so crazy. It's like they're so smart. And they're reading sucks. It can't be just like go on. Yeah, they're reading these incredibly nuanced moments.

Perfectly, you can tell they're comprehending at all. And they don't have at least a hand side for each other. So she can't tell. So no one knows. And then Infura shows himself in the look on her face.

They all see. And they know instantly it was him. Immediately a boozee goes in an attack. Some. Now here's the crazy thing.

And I'm curious.

The second getcha Rossi, he runs in and joins.

And as he's running into join, I yelled to make it. It's like, oh my god, who's he gonna help? Yeah, because he was just overthrown. Yeah, like a champ might have helped the other. Right.

“So what would be your expectation in that situation?”

Is that all shock users that make total sense? It makes sense to me that he would go for a boozee and help a boozee. Because boozee is now the established leader. And Infura is in this trouble. Some.

He's had bad behavior. Yeah. So he's better off aligning himself. The females have already aligned themselves with a boozee. He's gonna be much better off on the right side of history.

Yeah. But again, he's reading that scenario. And Infura is now big. He's not the under size version he was. So now it's like, it's a dangerous situation.

And it's like starting over with this new guy like that doesn't make sense. Yeah, all to say, they obviously, they don't. And I don't know how he didn't die in this situation. Yeah, no, they didn't kill him. But basically, it's sort of pushed him.

So we don't really want you in the group. And then when so far is to, in the past, they would let him just leave. And this time they let a mission to chase him clear out of there. When the researchers are watching this. Or obviously, the filmmakers are selfish and in for themselves.

Is anyone like, you need to step in. I know you can't. But like, so hard. Yeah. So so hard.

I was thinking about that with this. Chimp situation as well.

I always think you could probably take our discussion and put people names on it.

And it could be a human story, right? Like all the street in the drama and she did this and he did that. And then to have to sit and watch this happen, it's really, really difficult. You're trying to be the impassioned or dispassionate observer. And it's really hard.

But you know, you want the best genes to survive.

“That's going to be the best thing for the species and the long runs.”

So we're just there to watch, but it's tough. Yeah, because again, in anthropologists have learned the hard way, numerous times. When they have intervened, they often cause far more collateral damage than they initially. But it's like you're seeing a little baby get. I know.

I know. So hard not just like, well, and let me tell you the follow-up to that. Now, so the filming stop two years ago. And in that time, Gethrase has may assume died. So he disappeared.

We searched firm for months, but couldn't find him. So yes, he's now left the group. The good news is there are two younger boys that are coming up. One who's the brother of a boozeau. That will hopefully continue to support him.

But there was another infant death right at the end of filming. That we weren't able to capture. We weren't sure what had happened. But the thought was that him for a killed that infant. He's killed four infants in total.

He keeps coming back and then killing them and leaving. Infanticide is a pretty common reproductive strategy in guerrillas.

But it's always directed towards infants that are not in your family.

We've only had two other instances in 60 years where an infant was killed by a male within its own group. Two, two, and 60 years. Oh, Mike. So for this guy to kill four kids.

And there were other infants that were born in the group that he didn't kill. And they were born to his aunts. So that's really interesting as well. Of the great.

So I have several questions about what we think Infuru's motivation is. For me right away, I thought it was interesting that the first infant he killed was twofold. I could see motivation.

One is it's in boozeau's offspring who just kicked him out. And then secondly, and I know this is probably too much human projection. But it's an offspring of an outsider who has been accepted by the group. And he was an insider that has been thrown out. And it's just not hard to imagine that he hated her and in boozeau.

What do you think is going on?

What's your best guess? My best guess is that when these females move into a family group, like I was saying earlier, it's a tentative time for them, because they're not fully integrated. And what we will see and actually what Infuru tried to do later on

after the movie finished was the young males view that as their moment. Like, okay, before these females settle in, let me kind of hurt them off and form my own group with them. So I wonder if there was a piece of him that was like, hey, if her infant, because when a female has a baby,

she is not interested in a male for another four years. Because she's busy taking care of that baby. She doesn't cycle, et cetera. So she's kind of off limits to him now. But if he kills that baby, and maybe should be like, hey,

I'm not so safe in this group. My infant wasn't safe in this group. I'm going to go off with this male. So it may have been trying to increase his chances to take her and form his own group.

Because we did have two females transfer in.

He did successfully kind of take them off. But I think they realized we don't really want to be with you. And they came all the time. So now we haven't seen them in a bit. We don't know where he is.

We're very happy for the moment because we have young babies in there and we want them all to be safe. Because Pablo's group since filming started. So about the last four years has had eight babies and only three have survived.

So four were killed. One was still born in three have survived. So we don't like those numbers. Usually about 75% of kids survive. And this is what about 30%.

We want to see that group kind of stabilize. Okay, now I don't know if this is counterproductive or sacrilegious but I do want to get into the weird overlap. I do think it's fascinating how similar they are to us in many respects.

And I have to say with Infuru, I'm never going to say it right.

That's why he kills. Yeah, they gave him a while. So he's going to again, since his behavior now doesn't follow a mating strategy. We would have to just say it's kind of like a mental pathology. What's happening with him. And I cannot help but see the parallel between the

kid that's just completely bullied into oblivion and shows up at the school. I've been thinking about this whole time. It's funny because coming in, I'm like, okay, what kind of questions is Dex going to ask me, right? I know that as I remember hearing when you talk about chimpanzee,

a lot when it was on.

“And I told James Reed, I was like, James, you should go on the show and talk”

because I know that he really has enjoyed chimpanzee. It's interesting because we've had one other male. That had a similar type of situation. He actually killed four adult males. Whoa, he figured because normally males can die in fights.

But usually they're not killed. They get injured and then they get an infection and they die from that. But they're not killed outright. But this male figured out kind of how to go for the jugular. Oh, literally.

And so these males will bleed out very, very quickly. And what's interesting and thinking about both of them, as they both had some significant childhood trauma. Yeah. So here in Asia, who was the male, who killed a bunch of other males, he was actually with Pablo.

And Pablo was badly badly wounded in a fight and died from that fight. So he was kind of Pablo's right hand man. So he saw Pablo get very badly wounded and die. And for us was caught in a snare, which can be very, very traumatic. When he was quite young, he was caught in a snare.

His mom lived with his mom died when he was about 12. But he had a much younger brother who was three and a half, who then he had to raise.

“So I think it's interesting, like what could early life experiences?”

What role might that play? Now, lots of gorillas have had bad early life experiences. Yeah. They're just fine. Yeah. But we're actually doing a big study right now where we're comparing the gorillas

with the gomba chimps from Jean Goodall. And then another population of chimps that are in the same forest as the Angogo chimps. But it's in a different area. They're called the Can Your War chimps. And we're really interested in looking at early life adversity.

And what that means for later life outcomes. Because the gorillas amazingly seem to be much more buffered. When something happens to them early on, probably because they have 'cause we really tight community that the chimps don't have. And I feel like you see that a lot in chimps empire.

And rewatching it, I'm like, God, these guys feel so alone. Oh, they're so aggressive. The gorillas are just with each other all the time. They're a cohesive unit. They stay together.

And we were able to show that if a young gorilla loses its mom, it actually spends more time in your other gorillas. 'Cause everyone kind of comes and buffers them. And I've thought about this a lot with my daughters. Having lost a parent.

Yeah.

“And what is the community you need to build around them”

to give them that social buffering that hopefully will help? This is in your TED Talk. Give this to statistics. There's some fascinating statistics. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So if a male chimpt loses its mom, even up to the age of 15. So they're weaned at five. So they're nutritionally completely independent. If they lose their mom up to the age of 15, they have a shorter life expectancy.

Then a chimpt that doesn't lose its mom. And we don't see this with gorillas. And in fact, some of our most successful gorillas, Pablo lost his mom when he was poor. But he had been taken on by Beethoven.

Right, and Titus had lost his mom.

They were decimated by poachers. And he wanted to become an incredibly successful male.

“And I think in part, they get adopted by the silver back.”

So you've got the number one guy in the group who's making sure you have prime access to food. He'll sleep with them at night. And then the whole group supports you. So this social bonding that happens in guerrilla families,

which is really interesting. It's so interesting. So in fura's ballaines, not unique. I mean, maybe just because I saw it, it was captured on camera. It seemed, but is that just standard?

She, he have not reacted? No, I mean, when we've looked at it, it's very rare for males to be kind of forced out of the group. Usually, they kind of choose to leave on their own, but they will get aggression to direct it out.

I mean, maybe he was being inappropriate. In other ways, I think Embuzu was probably also just in a heightened state of arousal. Just taken over from getcheros. He's trying to make sure everyone knows he's dominant.

This male is kind of on his coat tails. And so just putting him in his place, right? And there may have been other things going on that we didn't capture that happen. You know, when we're not with guerrillas. But my guess is it was a bit of that.

And maybe in fura was trying to take advantage of the situation. And the uncertainty, because one of the things that was really clear to us and watching it, the group did not expect Abuzu to take over.

Like in that first fight happened, you can see they're all kind of like,

wait, what's going on?

“Because I think it charassey was about 28.”

So he wasn't past his prime. Canceby lived to be 38. But he had been sick. So it was a bit of a shock. He sort of came in hot.

So it took a little while. The group was unsettled. And so maybe in fura was taking advantage of that. I was shocked, I'll close the females. We're getting to them as they were fighting again.

And you don't see that in chimps. Yeah, everyone's smart enough to get out of there. Everyone gets involved. So yeah, that told me that either of those fights aren't as dangerous. There's some clue there that they were that close and engaged.

Yeah, no, the females often will. In one of them, I think it's Teda. You can see, she's like biting. I don't remember if it was in fura or Abuzu. But she's in there, right, in the mix.

Like break it up or like, I don't like join the side. Join the team at that time. Oh, wow. Okay, so back to the parallel with the kid at school. It's interesting to see in between the chimpenpire and this movie,

one of the huge, to me takeaway messages is the value of these long-term studies. We don't have that many of them. But in GoGo was a wonderful peaceful chim community for 20 years before this started happening. And then all of a sudden, they had a few members die that were kind of the connectors

between these two neighborhoods. And then, you know, they just gradually over time got to the point where now they're going and systematically trying to eliminate the other population.

You could have gone in for 20 years and never would have thought that would have happened.

The same with the gorillas. Like when Diane was first there, there was a lot of poaching of gorillas. So there was a lot of infanticide because when a male would get poached, that would give another male an opportunity to come in. 40% of deaths were infanticide.

Then when poaching was eliminated, it was really stable. And for 15 years, we didn't have a single case of infanticide. If you were a researcher that came in at that point in time, you would say, "Oh, gorillas don't commit one side. It's not a reproductive strategy."

Now we're seeing it again, but now it's much more natural. It's not caused by poaching. It's just the gorillas figuring out how they're going to sort themselves out. It's these long windows of time that show us how complicated their society is. Because if you went in for a shorter window of time, you might make assumptions.

Just because whatever the ecological conditions were back then, they didn't need to fight. They could spread out whatever. And then those ecological conditions change or something changes.

“And we see this whole side of them that we hadn't observed before, right?”

Well, it's interesting. It kind of goes into just studying things, which is like you're there for a short window. Context isn't even what you're looking at. You're looking at the subject and not even recognizing other contexts is absolutely determining what the subject's doing.

And we have no idea how different or similar this context is to five years ago. Exactly, a hundred percent. I wonder does that bleed into how you look at us? Because I feel like I sometimes have a view of things that borders on. From my friends in that, let's talk about young males, men.

It's like you're telling me, we're going to look at all the other primates. And you especially look at the great apes. And we see just how they act and what their role is and what they have to do and all this chemistry they have to help them be aggressive in the moment they have to be or take chances or be daredevil to establishes that we would have been excluded from that.

Or because we're living in a civilization for 3,000 out of our 300,000 years, somehow you think we all just are chemistry change. When you look at us, what do you think? That's a great question. I do think about it a lot.

Like I like to kind of sit back and just sort of observe people. And I think about a lot when I get on planes. Here you are, getting on a plane with 400 people. You don't know. You're sitting like this.

You're putting your life in someone else's hands and we do it all the time. That is what I think is amazing about humans aside.

Because that could never happen with gorillas.

Yeah. We're not the same. I think sometimes you can look at it as like we are animals. Well, we are. We come from animals, but we're humans.

We're not.

“And we have all kinds of tools in our culture to overcome our deficits that no longer service.”

But the point is, I don't say, hey, you got acknowledged boys are this real thing to excuse it. I say, hey, they have a uphill battle that's going to go wrong.

If we don't have a great game plan because they've inherited 65 million years of primate

evolution, 6 million years of ape evolution, 3 million years of hominid evolution, it didn't go away 3,000 years ago. That's a reality. So it's like, I'm not seeing boys should be able to act any way they want because they were designed to be this way.

But I'm saying we need a fucking game plan for them. Whether it's sports or it's this or it's that they're built to do this thing. And if we just think it evaporated because we have silverware is very naive and we need a game plan. Well, it's funny because Rob and I were just talking before you guys came in and he was

saying he is two boys and I was just on spring break with the friends of mine that have young men. And it's just so interesting. They're so different. They are always moving.

They're always active. They're always eating. It's so completely different and having girls.

“And I think that's some of the points that Scott Galaway has made and I know he's been”

on the show. Yeah, yeah. What is the outlet? Yeah, especially now is more and more people are interacting more with screens and not with people.

How are the older men in our society going to step up and be mentors to these younger men and help teach them the societal rules and norms that it's very easy now for you to get lost in a virtual world or an online world that takes you down a different path? Yes. Or I'm reading a book right now for a guest.

We have on Wednesday and it's about this kid who goes to Stray in London and he's got classmates that are sons of all agarks in London. So they have great wealth and he comes obsessed with wealth and these boys that are obsessed with the manosphere. What you're seeing in the simplest way is young males think they've found a way to have

females. I mean, it's really that simple at its core is oh, that's his strategy. I see the video and there's a bunch of beautiful girls around this guy and he's got muscles in a Ferrari. That's the thing or this guy's at the nightclub.

It's still about mates. It's never not. It's also about they say it in that dog like money so much of it is about money. But what's the point of the money when you're 15, 16, 17, it's really all to have the girl in the bikini next to you.

Like it is the currency currently it would have been great me. So I have me to share with the group and I'm going to elevate my status and gain access reproductively.

There's always been things or I'm going to protect everyone and that's going to be my

route. So there's a lot of options of these things that have gone away now it's like I don't know if you're a young male, what is it? I guess it's money or I guess it's a car or I guess it's this or it's that and we can't just go, no, you got to not be that way.

We have to have a solution for how they're supposed to get mates. That's not that disgusting thing none of us want. Yeah, probably calling them like bitches and sluts is like not the way they're giving them horrible advice. They're giving them horrible advice and it's a two way street they are with women.

So that's a reality like you might dismiss those women that have chosen to be around those guys, but the 13 or a boy doesn't know that you think those women have low priorities. He's seeing them with women. What do we do about that? That's the two way street of it all.

But they're degrading them. They're like I would never actually date someone like that or if you were my daughter, I would disown you. Is there the thing? Monica, it's disgusting.

So they're like, no, it's totally unfair. No, it's totally unfair. What's the solution to say that those boys need to just be at 13 years old elevated and have our consciousness, that's not a solution. But it's like which alphas are they looking up to is the solution showing which alpha

to look up to is the solution and women do play a part in that.

“Yeah, that's why I think it's not a good approach to put it all on one side.”

It's like I think we have a collective issue. How do I make sure my daughter's trying to do a guy who sits? She's a bitch and drives a Ferrari. That's part of this equation. For sure, one thing though, with the movie Dax that I wanted to ask you about is, well,

first of all, what was it like to watch with your daughter? What did they think? And then one of the worries that we have when the movie started was the behaviors we saw were so ungurilla like. In a way, like they do have these dominant shifts.

We've seen four or five of them in 60 years. Pretty rare. It's usually pretty peaceful. Usually a male dies and the next one takes over. This infanticide was really rare and so a concern of mine at the start was, oh, you know,

is the movie going to go in the direction of showing this violent side and sort of portraying gorillas as chicks, which they really aren't. And I was really happy.

I thought that the filmmakers did an amazing job.

You were afraid of making jaws. Yeah. And making everyone afraid of these animals and not sympathetic. Maybe even a little bit of the robe just went out, which is, oh, the gorillas are angry and kill and want power and when most of the time they don't.

They don't. And I think the takeaway should be the context of the context of the context.

We're all capable of good and bad and you control this other thing. You see this emerge. And this happens. You see this emerge. So we can't control the behavior once it's emerging.

We have to control the context before it emerges. It's just, no, that's not the strategy is in the middle of the, you know, that's a great question.

Someone who, this is their very first exposure to gorillas.

I think that would be hard to imagine. No one's not watched the many peaceful versions we've seen of the gorillas. But yeah, this is the singular thing they witnessed. I still think you're seeing of the whole movie, they're filming for six years. They filmed for two.

Oh, okay. Six years. Okay. So they're filming for two years. And they have about 90 seconds of footage of fighting.

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's true. In reality. In our in 58 minutes and 30 seconds of rolling around and hugging and grooming and carrying

for each other. So I guess you'll take whatever you want. Young boys will watch that.

I'm a man and I'm watching it.

And of course, I'm going to be projecting onto that mail.

“I'm like, yeah, that's what I would have to do.”

And I would do it. And I have tried to do it my whole life. And I want a family. And I will do it over that takes. So if it's jump things or protect them or whatever.

So yeah, I'm watching it and having this experience. And then my daughters and my wife are watching it going like, oh my god, these poor women have to deal with these men. Oh, of course. But again, this is how this thing works.

You could hate it or love it, but it is how it kind of works. So it's so well done. And again, we must be suspicious of read. I don't know how he's capturing because they're so similar to us. You cannot help but to project onto them and to feel like you're watching a reality show

of humans. There's so many cute moments with the silverbacks, these big huge males holding these little infants playing with them, they're sliding down their backs. And I was just thinking, like, as a dad watching it with your kids to see that those interactions exist in gorilla society, just like they exist in ours.

I will say, I feel like the gorilla males, they are beloved. They are the center of attention when it's resting time. Everyone's resting around them. The moms leave their kids with them and go off in feet and the males babysit. I do feel, because there's not as much intro group competition, that for male gorilla, it's

still a stressful lifestyle, but watching chimps is just to me, it's like watching aliens.

They're always making noise, yelling, screaming, running around.

The gorilla is those screams you heard, that's like all you ever hear from gorillas. That's it. When there's a fight. Other than that, they're quiet. They just sort of grunt to each other.

I'm over here. I'm over here. But it speaks to resources a lot. The chimps might have to walk three miles to go to the tree that's in bloom. These gorillas eat everything around them, at all times.

They're never nodding. They're just moving five feet, needing more, and then moving five feet, then they take their nap, they wake up, they're right next to the food.

“So I think that's applicable to us, it's like when there's great resources and people aren't”

fighting over finite resources, you see a different side of animals. You know, the other thing, Dax, I thought you would find fascinating about those in Gogo chimps is that they are incredible hunters. I think it's the one example other than humans of one primate hunting and other species into decline.

So the red colobus monkeys there have to climb by 90% primarily because these, they're more efficient hunters are like on the level of wild dogs in terms of how well they hunt and coordination and everything. Because gorillas are vegetarians, occasionally they eat an ant, you saw them eat ants. They don't even know how to eat them right.

They're like, can you just get a stick, they can't use tools, what do they do? They're so elevated in this domain and then over here, it's like there's clumsily slamming their fist in the hole that ton of these super biting ants, like it really hurts. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was not colonizer answer is something crazy, yeah, whatever, yeah, huge pinchers

and they're like, oh yeah, and then they're trying to kill them so they can then pick them up and eat them. I'm like, yeah, just go get a stick, yeah, get a stick, eat it the proper way, so we can publish that and everyone will love them because it's just, they are good until you search in captivity, but they don't need to out there.

When you live in a huge salad bowl, there's not much you need tools for, so they just don't do it. The chimps people make fun of them all this time for being stupid, cause all these tools. Stay tuned for more armchair experts, if you dare. And they learned sign language, they've been taught sign language.

Yeah, okay, yep. She are only example.

“And I think she was the only one that it was done with.”

I don't think there were others ever in the sign language program, but yeah, she did. You're our famously, she knew her kitty was not anymore. She signed the her kitty was dead. Cocoa had a kitty. A kitty like a cat.

Oh, a cat, okay. She had a cat. And it was hit by a car and she understood that it was dead. She signed this unique sign. Oh.

They have pets. No, this is the one that was raised in captivity and taught sign language. Yeah, like she was kind of raised almost like a human child. Oh, wow. Right.

tapes really understand language, even though they can't verbally make language. Yeah, we can do how much do they understand. Uh-huh. Okay. A couple geeky questions.

All right.

In the doc at Burroughs says, and I'm paraphrasing, but he's talking about his first

interaction with them in the 70s with Pablo and the others saying of all the animals, they see the world as we do as humans do. And I read a young, great book where it talks about the umvelle that German word. In the umvelle for people who doesn't, it's all your senses taking in the outside world and constructing it into what's in your head.

And that's your umvelle. And so some animals are seeing an imp for red, and so that's their umvelle. So how much do we know about Gorilla's umvelle? How do they see how do they hear? How do they touch?

All very similar to us. I think they're a sense of smell. I don't know that anyone's tested it. I get the sense that their sense of smell is maybe it's still a little bit better than ours, but you have very visual.

They seem color, they're not like those birds that when we look at them they're brown and

“when they look at each other they have like a huge red spot on it, which I think is so cool.”

It's so cool. Okay.

And then where are we with tourism?

Yeah. Huge part of the conservation success story. So I think there's 13 different types of great apes when you look at species and subspecies, not including us, and they are all declining except for Mount Gorilla's. They're the only ones on the planet that are increasing in number.

Now at the species level, they're still critically endangered, which means that's one level before extinct in the wild. So very at risk, very much need support, but there's a lot of factors that have gone into that conservation success, but part of it is definitely tourism. Because that money helps fund the park, and it also is shared with the human communities

that live adjacent to the park. So they understand the value of... They're incentivizing to keep that. The challenge with tourism is, you know, it needs to be done responsibly and well, particularly because these animals are super sensitive to the same illnesses that we have.

So we have to make sure we're not bringing in anything to them, which is why each family is only visited for one hour a day by a maximum of eight people and you're supposed to wear a mask when you're with them as well. Well, that's new. Yeah, that's new.

That's since COVID.

“And you get up to where you can see them, and once they're seen, you have to stop.”

There's no more forward momentum. Now if they come closer to you, that's fine. That's how at least worked when we were there. Yeah, I would say that more often than not the rules are broken on getting too close to them, but it's not the people's fault, it's the guerrillas fault.

Because a lot of times you can't move, you're stuck. And the guides are really good at telling you, like don't move, let them, they're just going to pass by. They'll only be here for a second because if you move or you're startled them, that's when they might get a little bit nervous.

I think they also like to put us in our place. This is my forest, this big guys here, but on the alpha, this is my forest, I'm just going to let them know. I'm two and a half times the size of my friend, and you're big in your little world.

And I will say, I've never seen a tourist get pulled.

But you've heard that, right? I mean, I'm sure some of our team members have that with the guerrillas more. And the males, when they display, they like to pick stuff up and throw it. If you're in the way, they might scoot you. But no, I take people to Rwanda all the time to see the guerrillas never have had anyone

get her bee stings or more likely what might bother them in the forest or an ant bite than the guerrillas themselves. The guides are really good, they can read their behavior. All their next level. Yeah, and move you to the right spot.

And the guerrillas, they've seen people every day of their lives. So I think, honestly, in their minds, they're like, okay, that hour where these weird ones that stand on their two feet instead of being, you know, on all four. Yeah, they're here for an hour, and they're going to leave, and then we'll just go about our day.

The kids are really interested. A lot of times, I want to check you out, the males are like, sleeping. They'll turn their back on you, which, to me, is assigned they're very comfortable. Because you don't turn your back on something that you're worried about, you want to keep your eye on it.

And you know, they'll be lying there, and then they'll just roll over and just continue sleeping. The one thing I will say about tourism is it's incredibly valuable, but it can't be our only solution for conservation, because we saw it during the pandemic. People stopped traveling, or if there's an economic downturn, or if there's civil unrest. And so if all the money for conservation is being generated through one mechanism, whatever

it is tourism, in this case, it's not sustainable. So we need a diversified approach to conservation if we want these kinds of animals to stay on the planet.

“I think that that's a really important part of it.”

I remember learning that for almost all of them, bearing your teeth not good for each other. If like, one chimps bears his teeth to another, that's kind of a threat. Is it the same in Gorilla? Yeah, it feels like our interactions would be innately flawed, because when we're happy and friendly, we're just like all teeth.

There's a lot of playing in the movie when they play, they pull their lips back, and you can see their teeth really well. So I think it's not just the teeth, but it's all the other contexts that goes along with it. You can make a scary face when we're showing our teeth, and you can just tell, is that

person tense? Yeah. But I think they have a tense smile versus if they're really relaxed. The other thing that people talk about to is direct eye contact can be aggressive. And it can be, but they love to look at you.

They like to come up and look.

If you're in an elevator, and someone's trying to look at you, right?

Yeah. So you've got to know the context. If the gorillas are upset, you're going to look away, and that's a sign of respect. Like, I'm not challenging you, but otherwise they're fine if you look at them. Yes.

What's happening in the larger context? Okay.

“My last question, and it's completely frivolous, did you watch CHIMP CRAZY?”

I did not. I have a lot of friends that work in those areas, trying to help CHIMP set our in situations, like that, but I did not watch it. As like a choice, because there's things I don't watch as I'm like, I refuse to support that.

Was it that type of choice? Or was it like, I have no interest in seeing this? I know enough about that world to be like, I don't need to know anymore. It's probably just going to upset me because I think of I where you might feel, and even I felt a little bit like, I felt this terrible, that's right, feeling like, yeah, you

think they're this and you're so naive and you want to pet so bad. So part of me was fascinated in that way, like, oh, really you think you can have a teenage fertile male chimp around you, and that's going to work out. Crazy. Oh, my Lord.

Well, the documentary is incredible. I loved it, watch it with the girls, I think everyone

should watch with their family. It's great. And no, I don't think you'll walk away feeling like jaws. When the two two year old start wrestling, it looks like two stuffies came alive and started wrestling.

I love that. Yeah. They're so cute.

“And I have to say to I love the scenery of Rwanda, like it's so dramatic, I felt like”

that was a whole nother character, just showing the mountains and what they look like and that missed in the rain and it's beautiful. It's an Eden for sure. And their babies are the teeth sharp. Was he in danger at all with the little babies?

No. That's a great question, Monica. I mean, I'm sure if the baby had bitten him, like I could have broken skin, but when he might have been at risk is if he did something that like scared the baby and the baby did a little vocalization, that it was nervous.

And then you got mom. And maybe you got dad coming over to see what's going on. It's really, I mean, they are like little fluffy. I know I really do want to touch them. But they're not soft.

Thank God. They're not soft. They're not soft. They're not soft. They're not soft.

It's a more of a brillo pad consistency. Oh. Okay, the movie is a gorilla story told by David Atmbro. It is on Netflix and your team said Earth Day, 22nd, but the Internet says the 17th. The 17th.

It's the 17th. We've forgotten Earth Day. We don't need that time. We don't need to cross promote. Tara, it's so great to get to see you in person as so much more fun.

Thank you for having me back and letting me talk about my favorite subject for an hour and a half. So fun. So interesting. Alright, be well.

When you all be able to enjoy this episode, unfortunately, they make some mistakes. We're covering from something. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm recovery.

Yeah. Um, Easter egg and maybe it will or will not make the fun. Well, I, it will because you want it to. Well, I got to.

I'm best to never see it, but I did insist on dancing in front of a guest.

Yeah. Which is, of course, real hard to watch. It was like, I don't know, what's the good, what's a good analogy. It's like, well, you probably never see anything like it to compare it to. To be clear, you danced to a song of this guest.

Yeah, because I love it so much. You love it so much and it is a great song and you just had to do it. You broke the table in the middle of doing it.

“Which I think is a sign of any great dance part is that it's able to get broken.”

It's like, oh, my God. No, no, things are breaking. Things are literally breaking down as we speak. Yeah, yeah. It, it, it, it, it, it is a big swing up, say it for sure.

Yeah, and I guess I just like want to know, you know, you're so different from me, you know, you like. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you, you know, you're acknowledging it. Like, this is so weird. This is weird.

This is crazy. This is kind of inappropriate. But highly. Like, this, you're making this person watch you dance. Yes, it's crazy and it could be super self-indulgent too.

Exactly. Yes, it ran all these risks. I had the idea because I had been dancing to this person song for a couple of hours today and I had a fantasy that maybe they'd want to dance with me to the song. And then, so two things, it's like, I kind of want to do that.

But I have to, I have to, um, assess during the two hour interview, whether this is going to be way too much for the person or not. So there was a really high likelihood I wasn't even going to ask. Okay. I just thought that their personality could handle it.

Okay. And then they didn't want to dance with me. Yeah. And then I just felt like you can only believe so much when I tell you, I like the song.

But if I'm willing to go to this super embarrassing level to demonstrate how I feel when I hear it, that would be like my most sure way of letting them know.

“I think he knew, you know, I think he knew before you dance, that he, that, like, if”

you meant a lot to you, that you love it, like, because you were pretty, if you said just in the words you were using about how much you loved it. So it came through. Words are easy to other. No, they're not.

Yeah. Um, they came through. It came through. But you know, it was unnecessary. Is what you're saying.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Um, but then you, you did it. And we got through.

I guess, you know, some, I'm embarrassed, but I'm also in awe because I just could never.

Like, I, I just, I just, like, could and would never do what you, you just did. You know, and so there's, there's, like, wow, wow, he's so different from me. And it's cool. And it's cool. You, you really don't care.

I care. You don't care. I care, but not enough to overwhelm this other thing I think is pure that I want to do. I know.

I think it was the watching. Yeah. It's kind of like if someone, like, the worst would have been if I looked at you guys in the eyes while it was happening, which I never did. Oh, my God.

Okay. Moving on. Transitioning. That was that I just think we needed to, like, because it was one second ago. Yeah.

I haven't even caught my breath fully. It was quite a workout. Yeah. I mean, that's, like, when someone's dancing in your being forced to watch, like, every song is actually 45 minutes.

And aren't you glad you had each other? I am glad. But then I also felt, okay, look, here's like what's, there's, it's complicated. Actually, because I can't, you're one of my many fathers, any of my fathers.

“You, my dad, Bill, Bill, you want to see Bill dance?”

I don't want to end the dance in front of me while this guest is here, while everyone's actually know I don't, I don't want any of my dads to do that. I want to see him. And so, you know, I'm having, like, a very, very, like, personal reaction. And if you're, like, I absolutely need this to end, like, the song is way too long.

And it's a short one. It's like three minutes. But our guest is engaging with me during this, because he is finding this very funny. Yeah. Yeah.

Even though it's crazy. Not funny. It's, it's real. It's all very real. Yeah.

And so. But then I was like, well, I don't want to, like, gang, I don't want to, like, us be laughing at DaX, like, that's me. So, I'm just gonna handle that. I'm just gonna be over now.

I committed, like, I committed. So, whatever outcome I was, I was at peace with. I know. But it's like, I don't know. I just, I guess.

That's over. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, uh, other update, I did through that thing away, and then last night, no problems.

Yeah. So, it was the pet. Yeah, definitely. I took my night time vitamins and oils and, you know, Omega 3's. Yeah.

So, everything was great. Well, figured it out. That was an experiment. Figure it it out. Yeah.

Yeah. I was gonna ask. I'm glad you brought that up. Okay. Um, my brother is, is, like, about to be here.

He's seconds away. I'm now, I'm now upset. I didn't plan things. In what way? Oh, my God.

Now what are we, what are we going to do? Okay, this might be fun for our audience if they come into the city of Los Angeles. Um, well, first of all, she ever been here. Your brother's visited you several times. Yes.

She has, but the only bad visitors are ones who've never been to LA.

And naturally, they do have to go see Hollywood Boulevard, and they go see the sign, and they got to see Santa Monica Pier, but none of us want to do anything. All the things we don't want to do when you live here. Yes. She has, but, like, kind of briefly, so I do wonder if we're going to need to check a few things

off the list. We might need to.

“For anyone who's visiting Los Angeles, why don't you give your perfect day?”

Well, I know what I would do right now is I would, I would get online and I would book and I would break the bank and I would go see whatever's playing at the Hollywood Bowl this weekend. I think that's the most special thing in LA is the Hollywood Bowl. Okay.

And if you can get yourself into those little picnic area, it's so fun and magical. Yeah. Like that Phil Harmonix playing, it'll be great. Interesting. Okay.

Good rock. It would take him to see Kevin. I'm good. Good on that, but can you imagine, I mean, I got a great surprise.

You never know that they're from Georgia.

They might. I'm kind of like, the Hollywood Bowl, no one would go. Well, like, it would be so interesting to see who would show up for that. Yeah. I don't think their book in him is my point.

Probably not. Okay. That's great. Hollywood Bowl. Or Greek.

Okay. So you're going, okay.

If you're booking, your brother's coming in town with his, his fiance.

Yeah. And they're cool. They're cool. They're fun. You know, you're, you have 24 hours with them.

You're going concert. I would go Hollywood Bowl. And then I would wake up tomorrow morning and I would hike up to the observatory so they can look out over the city and see what a magical place it is. I might take them to Kara Dodgers game.

Okay. Dodgers game. Signature. I'm trying to do them things that will be uniquely out like. Okay.

And then you'll take them to Silver like to eat or echo park one of those fun little neighborhoods. I'm just going to see what they're feeling. Yeah. Yeah.

“What kind of cuisine are they interested in tonight?”

Yeah. Oh. In a void, every time they mention the west side, exactly like you didn't hear it. Yeah.

Yeah. Is that what you just did just now when I said, Kara, because you just like didn't it, you just kept talking. Oh, no. I know.

I wasn't intentionally doing that. No. I didn't know if you were showing me a way to do that. Demonstrating. No.

Like I just did with cars. Did I hear that? Oh, you said something about the beach I hadn't heard you. Anyways, if you guys went to the Hollywood Bowl. All right.

Well, I'm excited to have them and we're going to report back on how it goes. Yeah. That's very fun. You're hosting your little brother and his lady at my house. Yeah.

They're not going to come over to, there's something I'm going to do with it. Okay. All right. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. That's what I mean. Yeah. My kids love Jane's addiction now. That's a huge win for me.

They're ever expanding, like musical taste makes me so happy. They're fun. Yes. You. Because we want to hit chili pepper stock.

Did you watch it yet? No. Did you watch it, Rob? No, I did not. Thank you for not.

I'm going to recommend it enough. It's a beautiful documentary. And I want to say publicly from the rooftops, flee is the most beautiful, fucking soulful human being. Yeah.

He's so sweet. Is Anthony Kiddison? Oh, yeah. I hope everyone remembers that Ryan, that our friend Ryan has obsessed with Anthony Kiddison.

Anthony Kiddison. Anthony Kiddison. Your house for a second.

Unexpectedly, I've never seen him short circuit.

Yeah. His reaction was really something. But what a reveal, too, because Anthony was a mummy for how to mean. So there was just a mummy in the house of people remember and then he unwrapped it. And it was like, it was like, I guess this is the masks center.

It was like a real? Yeah. Grover is of the mask singer. Yeah. I'm working late because I'm a singer.

Great song Sabrina. Oh my god. A new artist for you. Did you know you can watch Coachella live on YouTube? Yeah.

I didn't know that until the second weekend. Uh-huh. Yeah, that's a bit.

“That's why people had some interesting feelings about some of the performances because”

they're in their couch. Well, no. I think they're like, oh, this performance is made for people watching at home. It's actually not made for me who's there. That's what a lot of people were thinking.

Because I think a lot of people are dying to pile on and hate things. Well, I don't know. Like I heard some feedback about the beaver thing. I was like, are you fucking watched it? Yeah.

So incredibly pure and amazing.

Right. But you watched it on you. But I also talked to a bunch of people that were there and they were fucking minds were blown. So the people that I talked to were there or even more impressed people.

Yeah. I think everyone's allowed to have their own opinion about certainly people are allowed to have their own opinion. It also might be possible that people are dying to declare they hated something. Yeah.

Even if they don't. So often they actually don't have an opinion. They like saw it. They're like, I don't know whether that's good or bad. And then they start hearing this chatter.

And so they hear a theory pitched. And when these things are pointed out, you know, like, oh, yes, they did observe those things. I guess it was bad. I don't think they'd actually intrinsically felt that way.

“I think it depends on who's saying it, whether or not I think that or not.”

Yeah. If that person is halo effect. Right. Because I have a kind of hot take on something right now. And it would annoy me if people were like, oh, you just don't like it because you

don't want to like it because people like it because that's not true. There are real reasons why I don't like it. I'm not going to say where it is because I'm not here to blast it. Now we're all dying. Oh, yeah.

I mean, he'll be all yellow. Yeah. Everyone around me is like, this book is so great. Correct. This book is full of shit.

And it was like, oh, you just like don't like it because everyone likes it, but not true. You had your own opinion of which I have too many. And the less I have, the happier. Stay tuned for our share expert if you dare. Now, do you think you're having less opinions or you're just keeping them quiet?

Yeah.

It's not like it's actually making or do you think keeping them quiet is having a reverse

effect and you're actually having less?

“You're sure in the way that like I've learned to overcome my urge to share my opinion, right?”

So I have some practice now with that. And I live. Everything's fine. I've known her my opinion and I had a great point, but it didn't even matter. So I observed that.

That's interesting. And then you get better at fighting the urge. And then yeah, I think the importance of my opinion in general has been downgraded. It's like, yeah, that's just the thought I have in my perspective. And it's equally as relevant as everyone else's and it might make more sense mathematically

or in terms of physics. But that is also just one way to observe the world and compute it. That's right. Yeah, I'm less and less as I age religious about the empirical. That's good.

I just now see it as like, yes, that's that's that's an avenue to examine life. Yeah. Men's to look at life through and in reality. Yeah. And there's certainly many more.

Our guess was closer to your age, but in the middle. Really, how does he? He's born in '84, so I guess he's just three years. And then I'm nine years. So it's not that very much in the middle.

But I think because his is my burning everything, never mind.

I keep saying him. I don't want to give him. That's okay. Well. Yeah, I guess he's okay.

I'm actually fine saying that. The guest who you dance for was a man. Oh, okay.

“I think that's okay to say that actually.”

Yeah, I don't think I would have danced for a while. I, the level that is a no. Yeah, yeah. And less, oh God. I can imagine a case where like, again, Taylor Swift is so fucking confident.

And if I said, like, I love your song, such and such. And I dance to it every chance I can. Yeah. I can imagine her going, let's see it. I know you don't, but it's, it's a conceivable scenario, right?

I mean, you just have to be like, so ready. Like, I think Madonna would be like, yeah, go ahead and dance to material girl. All judge. Right. Because she's so kind of.

Yes, true. I just like, it adds a weird add to another layer. If I dance for it to bring a carpenter, it would be really a rough look for me. I think different, for Taylor also, although, like, again, because look, if you're dancing for one of these people, that's viral.

Like, everyone's going to see it. So big of opinions.

If you, if, if, if, if, if we were Taylor on and he's first, yeah, I'd be the laughing

shot in America. Everyone in the whole world would see it and make an opinion. Yeah. It takes you here to give him. She's saying, I love it.

I love it. I love it. Like she was forced to say she loved it. Exactly. Yeah.

I'm going to deal with that one. We put this out. Yeah. He might have to do up. He might have to make a statement.

I can sense it. I truly enjoy. I'm no longer in that situation. And I still like it. And he made us, he made us put it up.

He said, you better not cut that. Mm-hmm. So, okay. Wait. Yeah.

That guest is a musical taste. We're very informed by my same musical taste. Uh-huh.

“So, in that way, I think we felt closer in age.”

But it was an illusion. It was an illusion of the same references. I can be so tricky in that way. Like as for you, John Hughes is obviously you're in this business. So, you know about John Hughes.

I love John Hughes. But John Hughes wasn't seminal work for you. Was it other than homalone? Yeah, homalone is mine. But the other stuff.

I mean, I saw like I saw 16 candles. And I saw in breakfast club was was a big deal. Yeah. But it was a big deal as like, yeah. It wasn't newly a big deal.

It was like, yeah, this is something from the way back. But the before times that like, it's supposed to hold up and be cool. It's like cool if you like it. Sure, sure.

And Kelly had a breakfast club poster. Yeah, that's a cool move. Yeah, yeah. And she like new movies. Yeah.

That was that. She should have gone in a movie publicity. Movie marketing. Yeah. Yeah, she should have.

She did. She did. Okay, so she had breakfast club. What do you think I had? Well, good will hunting.

Okay, yeah. But that one's obvious. Yeah. Okay. Oh, god.

Like, like, how to lose a guy in 10 days? Which is a brown guy. Closer. Closer. Oh, she's 11.

Okay. Sure. A lot of guys on that poster. Oh, she's like, we have a lot of magic. We have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

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Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm. Oh, we have a lot of magic in our dorm.

“And I'm like, we're not leaving Delta in a hotel.”

Well, we go. Yeah. But you guys could go in this. Oh, when are you supposed to go? Well, that's another thing.

I would only because I did it this way. The one time, and it was perfect, which is if we went in the rainy season. So nobody's there. And I loved that.

I want to say it's springish. Oh, okay. Because I was going to say, if you go in December, she could just nail it.

If I went on March 26. Yeah, exactly. Delta will be 15 and Lincoln will be 16. Yeah. We don't have a problem.

Anyways, I was like, well, look, so now you're going to pick your weight and extra year and get to go see gorillas or go at 16 and we don't see gorillas. Yeah. And they chose.

So these choice. I don't even give me an official verdict. Yeah, but. I see. I think probably in Lincoln's mind,

“there's still a way to go at 16 and not bring Delta,”

which would be a natural sibling response. Well, no, she'll go at 16 and Delta will be 15. And Delta will be 15 at the beginning of the year. Wow. I didn't even do that.

I mean, idiot. Yeah. There's three months where they're the same age. Yeah. Well, we're one year apart.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, all right. Well, that's it. That's it.

Watch that doc. It's phenomenal. Yeah. I wouldn't give my pledge for the other thing in the fact check. Oh.

I'm watching. Oh, yeah. This reality show called Secret Millionaire. Peter Sara Fenowitz is the host of it. Okay.

Do you remember who he is? He's a comedian. He's English. We're friends with him. He wasn't couples retreat.

And we became very good friends with him. Uh-huh. I love him. And these season one,

“I think it was 12 people checking to this resort.”

And you go to the room and everyone's got a box inside.

When they open up one person has a million dollars in the box.

And then they got to try to figure out who's got the million dollars. And they vote someone out. And it's so good. We have had more fun watching this show than I think any other show we've watched is a family. It's so good.

And then last night, Kristen was working in San Francisco for the day. So we did cafe 101. Rummy Cube. Nice. What a fun game to play while you're waiting.

Rummy Cube then race home for season two episode one of the new season. What's called Secret Millionaire? I think Secret Millionaire. Okay. Cool.

It's great. I hope you give it a show. Yeah, well. Million Dollar Secret. Million Dollar Secret.

Much different. What did I say hotel one millionaire? Okay. Million Dollar Secret. It's very close.

If you get secret in million in your search,

you're gonna bring it out. People are devils. Ooh, they are. I thought that during Beast Game. Oh, ding ding ding primates.

You know, you're all deception. That's really true. It's a strategy. Yeah. To mate.

Yeah. Dominate. Everything. All right, I'm gonna check it out. All right.

Love you.