Love Is No Defense | EP 8 | Saskia's Story

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and this week we are talking about a monster, or maybe the woman who refused to be one. I'm sitting down with Maggie Gillen Hall to unpack her new film The Bride. And trust me, this isn't your grandmother's

bride of Frankenstein. What I was more interested in was the monstrousness inside of each of us. You can spend your life running from those things,

or you can turn around and shake hands with them. Listen to Bookmarked. The Reese's Book Club podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, listeners.

I'm Nancy Glass, host of the burden of guilt season two podcast. It's a jaw-dropping story of a violent crime in New Orleans

that actually never really happened.

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When segregation was a law, one mysterious black club owner, Charlie Fitzgerald, had his own rules. Segregation in the day integration at night. It was like sipping at another world. Was he a businessman, a criminal, a hero?

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Earlier this season, we went through Saskia's divorce trial. We talked about all the hurdles that Saskia had overcome. All the insults she had to endure, just to end her marriage.

But I want to go back to that trial for a second.

“Because there's one more moment you need to hear.”

It's the devil in the details. What's on the screen here is, "Vendons Exhibit 3?" This is audio from the middle of the divorce trial, during Mike's cross examination. Saskia's attorney began by quoting Mike's initial divorce filing.

Herograph aids as all of these acts were consensual, and the paragraph 10 that all of these allegations are posted at the time of the story. It was a serious threat to your good reputation. Do you recall making those statements?

Yes. The statements about this being an betrayal and that all acts were consensual, those were false statements. There's not false statements? Well, we know that not all the acts were consensual, right?

I maintain the work consensual, absolutely. Remember, by this point, Mike had already pled guilty to rape and criminal court, but here he was in the divorce trial, stating that all of his sexual encounters with Saskia were consensual. Saskia's attorney couldn't understand it.

He pulled up the transcript from Mike's guilty plea. "In fact, you were asked, and this guilty plea, my judge coming, if you're a pleading guilty, because you were in fact guilty. Do you remember being asked that question?"

Uh, yes. And what was your response to that question? I did, I felt guilty. Because you were guilty, right? That's it.

Yes, yes. So, I'm struggling with your previous testimony, that all acts will be consensual, but you will be found guilty of rape. How is that?

“Well, I think first of all, I think you would kind of”

bifurcate some of it, or have separate parallel discussions

There's one thing about the consensual use of pornography,

the consensual acts of taking photographs and videos. Mr. Love and Good. The judge interrupted him. So, I would say to- I'm going to cut you off.

Okay. So, you maintain that all acts, all acts, between you and Ms. N. Woods were consensual.

Your plea agreement was that you were pleading guilty,

because you are in fact guilty of rape. They can't fall for your truth. So, the question is, which one is true? I'm Andre Gunning, and this is Betrial Season 5. Episode 8.

Love is no defense. The judge allowed Mike a 15-minute break to talk with his attorney. When the court reconvened, Sasuke's attorney asked him again. How did it be true that you plead guilty to rape of the defendant, but that all of the acts between you and the defendant were consensual?

So, I think this is an important point. So, to try to explain better. So, based on discussions with my attorneys, and my lawyers say they're explaining to me the statute of rape and the definition of rape, and the specifically around the use of force.

“You remember that at the time, Merlin had a law on the books.”

It was legal to rape your wife if she wasn't conscious, unless force was used. My attorney explained to me, there's no specific amount of force that is required. And it's very subjective thing. Stay prosecutors could only charge Mike with rape in the moments

where they could argue he used force. But the examples of force that they identified were slam dunks. The state specifically says the force in these videos as your eye will see is force such as moving a leg while unconscious. By the time of his divorce trial, Mike had clearly learned a lot about the marital exemption to rape, and he was using it to distance himself from his own guilty plea.

Mike told the divorce judge that the whole criminal case against him was based on a technicality.

“Under the law, the only thing he did wrong was move his wife's leg.”

So I absolutely played guilty to that act of moving her leg while she was unconscious, semi-conscious. I played guilty to something that I did do, and that I recognized is the plea of second degree rape. And I did that, and I admit to that. I think from out of the criminal setting, right, in kind of a common, if you will, place environment, I don't believe in my heart that I did that, that I wrote her.

Mike didn't believe in his heart that he raped Sasuke. We're going to come back to him and let you in on what he's up to today in the next episode. But before we get to that, we need to talk about why Mike argued this, that raping his sleeping wife was in rape.

And the reality is, the law said it wasn't.

The state was able to prosecute Mike, but they knew it was on a technicality.

“That's why prosecutors only charged him with three counts of rape, and one count of attempted rape, despite there being so many videos.”

And it's a big part of why they agreed to give Mike an 18-month plea deal. The law said what it said wasn't raping your wife if she was unconscious. So Mike got off easy. It's a hundred percent of case that sticks with me because we weren't able to really accomplish full justice. That's Debbie Feinstein.

She's chief of the Special Victims Division at the Montgomery County State's Attorney's Office in Maryland. She supervised the prosecutors on Mike's case. Back in 2018, when they were just beginning to build the case, Debbie knew. There were many, many, many, many more counts of rape that we could have charged him with.

She saw what Mike did to Saskia. She could not consent.

“She could not be amenable to what was happening, given the fact that she was physically helpless and mentally incapacitated.”

It's just those two things cannot be true at the same time. And yet, in the eyes of the law, both things were true. Saskia was consenting, even though she was completely knocked out. According to the law in Maryland, she consented the day she signed her marriage certificate. The marital exemption to rape could be seen as a legal loophole.

But that's not quite accurate, because laws like this have been around for hundreds of years. They were built into the legal institution of marriage. It comes from the common law of England in the 1600s when women were chattel. They were possessions. So once you married, the husband could do whatever he wanted to the wife because she was like a table.

Your horse, your teapot, that's chattel, that's property. That's Lori Ruth. I am the public policy director at the Maryland Network Against Domestic Violence. It's a coalition that represents all the domestic violence service providers in the state. Lori has dedicated her career to helping survivors of intimate partner violence.

For decades, she provided direct legal support. And today, she lobbies for bills in the state legislature.

Lori first heard about Maryland's marital exemption around 2008.

At the time, she was the legal director at a women's rights nonprofit. A call came through to her office. The woman on the other line was in the car. She was driving on the Baltimore Bellway. And she said, "My husband is drugging me and having sex with me and filming it."

This woman, like Saskia, was incapacitated when her husband assaulted her. And I stood up from my desk.

“I said, "You have to pull over. Like you can't be driving down the street telling me that story."”

And I said, "That is not allowed. That is illegal. It's a crime." He can't do that. But then Lori looked into it. Come to find out. They're married. Come to find out. Here we are in 2019-2020-2021-2020-2023.

He probably was allowed to do that. According to the law, she hadn't been raped at all.

Over the years, Lori never stopped thinking about that woman.

You hear stories like that, and you think somebody needs to be focused on this for the betterment of our society and the citizens and the women and daughters and girls in the state of Maryland. But here's the thing, this law wasn't just affecting people in Maryland. In 2018, when Mike committed these crimes, Marital exemption laws existed all over the country.

“In red states like Ohio, Michigan, Nevada, Mississippi, Oklahoma,”

and also in blue states, like California, Rhode Island, and Minnesota. And all across the country, there have been people working to end these legal exemptions. People like Stephen Torkheimer. We want the law to respect individuals. We want the law to respect survivors' experience.

We want the law to create the rules for how we want society behave. And that's not this. Stephen leads the public policy team at rain. The rape abuse and incest national network. It's the nation's largest anti-sexual violence organization.

Stephen's job is to look at laws around the country and see which laws need to be changed to protect survivors. I'm a lawyer, right? But sometimes when you read a law, you're like, this can't be correct. Let me, let me go check. Let me see if this is actually being used.

When you learned about Marital exemption laws, that was his first reaction. Maybe these laws were relics of an older time. Never actually enforced. But it turned out that that was not what was happening. Straight up in Ohio, people that were being sexually assaulted by their husbands through drugs or other means.

We're calling the police and the police were saying that's not a crime. That's what was happening. Stephens met women like Saskia all across the country.

Women who could never get full justice for the crimes committed against them.

The thing about a law like this, the black letter rule, is that it's not just like what cases can't go forward.

They say that I'm to blame, that I'm not worthy of protection.

The more cases like Saskia's he heard about, the more angry he became. The key is to take that outrage that you have and bring it to people that can change the law and let them be outraged with you.

“These are people whose minds can be changed. These are people that want to change laws. That's why they got the job.”

And yet convincing these legislators is no simple task. Sometimes it takes a lot of people and a lot of effort to do something that should be easy. In Saskia's case, the prosecutors told us they felt like their hands were tied.

Debbie Feinstein wanted to file more charges against Mike.

But because of the marital exemption to rape, she couldn't. This case spoke volumes because it was exactly why this law didn't make sense. In this case, he got a substantially reduced sense of incarceration really because the meat and potatoes, the heart of the case, was taken out from under us because of this bousal defense to rape.

“For Debbie, having to charge Mike on a technicality was a sign of a larger problem.”

Even though Mike took the plea, she couldn't let this case go. The ones where we can't get to the full right outcome, they live within us. But they also drive advocacy, which is what happened in this case. Hi listeners, I'm Nancy Glass, host of the burden of guilt season 2 podcast.

It's a jaw-dropping story of a violent crime in New Orleans that actually never really happened.

I'm excited to share the burden of guilt season 2 story with you. And what let you know that you can get access to all episodes of season 1 and every single episode of burden of guilt season 2, 100% ad-free with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.

“Plus you'll get access to all episodes of burden of guilt season 2, one week ahead of everyone else,”

available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait, head to Apple Podcasts and search for iHeart True Crime Plus and subscribe today. Hi, I'm Danielle Robe, host of bookmarked the podcast by Reese's book club. And this week we are talking about a monster, or maybe the woman who refused to be one. I'm sitting down with Maggie Gillin Hall to unpack her new film The Bride.

And trust me, this isn't your grandmother's bride of Frankenstein. It's darker, smarter, sexier, a full reimagining of what happens when the monster gets a voice of her own. What I was more interested in was the monster'sness inside of each of us. You can spend your life running from those things, or you can turn around and shake hands with them. If I'm honest about that, and I tell my story about monsters really dealing in something truthful.

And I do it in a way, that's pop, that's hot, that's like getting on a roller coaster, will people respond. Listen to bookmarked, the Reese's book club podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Bob Pitman, chairman and CEO of iHeart Media, and I'm kicking off a brand new season of my podcast, math and magic stories from the frontiers of marketing. Math and magic takes you behind the scenes of the biggest businesses and industries, while sharing insights from the smartest minds of marketing.

I'm talking to leaders from the entertainment industry to finance, and everywhere in between. This season of math and magic, I'm talking to CEO of liquid death, Mike Sassaria, financeier, and public health advocate, Mike Milkin, take to interactive CEO, Strauss Allen. Unable to take meaningful creative risk, and therefore run the risk of making horrible creative mistakes, then you can't play in this business. Sesame Street CEO, Sherry Weston, and our own chief business officer, Lisa Coffee.

Making consumers see the value of a human voice, and to have that guaranteed human promise behind it, you can only make set by stood at top. Listen to math and magic stories from the frontiers of marketing, starting March 19th on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. 10, 10, shot, 5, City Hall building, a silver 40 caliber handgun was recovered at the scene.

Somebody tell me that.

“July 2003, Councilman James E Davis arrives at New York City Hall with a guest.”

Both men are carrying concealed weapons, and in less than 30 minutes, both of them will be dead.

And everybody in the chambers of dogs, a shocking public murder, a scream, get down, get down, those are shots, those are shots, get down. A charismatic politician, you know, he just bent the rules all the time. I still have a weapon, and I could shoot you. And an outsider with a secret. He alleged he was effective flat down.

Listen to Worshack, murder at City Hall, starting on March 25th on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

“In the state of Maryland, people were working for years to overturn the marital rape exemption.”

But these kinds of laws, laws that have existed for hundreds of years, are difficult to overcome.

To rally people to make a change, it often takes a case of massive injustice. Sask is case, was exactly that. It was a case with overwhelming evidence, dozens of videos, which might streamed to thousands of people. But he was only sentenced to 18 months. It's the kind of story that could get lawmakers attention. Here's prosecutor Debbie Feinstein again. It is singularly the most impactful, effective way to approach advocacy and the legislature is to have a case where an individual human being was impacted, and this case spoke volumes.

So, in 2020, just after Mike went to jail, Debbie went to Annapolis. She worked with state lawmakers, legal advocates like Lori, and representatives from the Maryland Coalition against sexual assault to present a bill in the Maryland legislature. A bill that could overturn the marital exemption once and for all. We got a recording of that legislative session. A representative from Sask is County introduced the bill. I'm jealous of Charlotte Fetchfield from Montgomery County, and I am honored to be able to testify today on House of Bill 590.

Also known as Love is no defense to sexual crimes. Debbie testified at length, and even though Saskia wasn't there in person. Her case was the highlighted case that we brought to Annapolis. Here's Debbie testifying before lawmakers. In Montgomery County, we had a case within the last couple of years, and in that case a spouse raped his wife repeatedly actually on camera while she was immensely incapacitated.

And in that case, marriage was a complete defense to his rape of his wife. It's incredibly disturbing that we could not prosecute the individual for all of those counts of rape that he perpetrated on his wife.

He ultimately ended up pleading guilty with a much reduced sentence that really barely scratched the surface of the horrific offenses.

But I will tell you because I watched those videos, the horrible nature of them that we were unable to prosecute. But even with the example of Saskia's story, the bill got a lot of pushback. Debbie and her colleagues were trying to eliminate marriage as a defense to all sex crimes. First, second, third, and fourth degree. So on the scheme of things, you know, we have rape, and then we have 4th degree sex offense, which is an unconsensitive touching,

which could be a graze on the brass degrees on the buttocks or the genital area. Some legislators were concerned about what the bill would mean for those lower tier offenses. What you're saying is under this bill, the husband would have to get consent that I couldn't roll over at night and put my hand on a bikini area. I would have to say, excuse me, he's a little bit cold, he's just trying to spice it up a little bit, he rolls over. Now as she can say, I'm going to prosecute you for a 4th degree sex offense.

That was so disturbing to hear that come out of legislators' mouths. Lori Ruth, the public policy director you heard earlier, felt the same.

“You stare at them and you think, what kind of marriage do you have?”

That you actually think that's going to happen. But lawmakers, like all of us, buy into myths about rape accusers.

The most common response we see is, how can we be sure that she's telling the truth?

“How can we know that she's not lying often followed by, to get a leg up in a custody suit?”

That is a real barrier to getting bills passed. Representatives worried that this change would overwhelm the courts. The office of the public defender says we're going to be swarmed with defendants at this law passes. Another advocate, Dorothy Lennig, spoke directly to those concerns. Actually, I find it kind of shocking that the public defender is going to argue that they would be swamped with cases.

I find it shocking, kind of sad, if they're saying that at this point the only reason we're not protecting women who are accusing their husbands of sexually assaulting them is because of this law.

But ultimately, these concerns were enough to kill the bill.

To me, the fact that a bill like this could fail in 2020 doesn't make sense. The government once people to get married, and yet with the law signing a marriage certificate means limiting your rights as Debbie said to us. We're basically penalizing someone for being married. It defies logic. I asked Lori Ruth about this. I don't know that it has to do with logic. There is a deep, deeply seated misogyny at play.

Logic? I don't think so. It's also not a partisan issue.

“I think the rest of the country views us as being quote unquote very liberal.”

But I think if you spend any time in anapolis, you learn that it's not as simple as that. We have actually had legislators say this, like you women get one bill this year. Let's say we've got five that are about child support, domestic violence, something else. They'll say you get one. Step in from rain has seen these attitudes and other states too. When you're presenting to an individual legislator on a bill, there are few signs you can see about whether or not they're listening to and buying into what you're arguing.

One of the main ones is whether or not they reference their grand daughter or their grand son. If they talk about their grand daughter, they're thinking about the survivor. If they reference their grand son, they're thinking about the offender. You hear that these people made a mistake or whatever else, something shouldn't ruin their life, all those kind of other stuff, all things that are not backed up in stats or stories, but you still have to deal with them because these are people that can stop your bill.

And they do stop bills all the time. Often before the bills can even get a full debate, the bills that do make it to the floor are put through the ringer. This is especially true when it's only people like Stefan Laurie or Debbie Testifying. When there are no survivors, speaking on the bills behalf, here's Laurie again.

“Sometimes the pushback to us is, well, I know you professionals are talking, but where are the people that this really happens to?”

Why didn't you bring anybody with you? Isn't there somebody you could speak about this? And you want to say, do you not understand? It's not that easy to stand up and talk about the most awful things that have happened in your life to a big room full of people. Asking survivors to testify is no small thing.

When the bill in Maryland was first introduced, Sasuke was in the middle of her divorce proceedings with Mike.

I was a shallow person. At that point, I couldn't have gone through the steps of describing what had happened. No other survivors like Sasuke came forward either. And yet, all of the experts we talked to for this episode agreed. So much of the time, it's survivor testimony that gets these bills over the line. Here's Stefan from rain again. People don't really get motivated by stats and not really. They really get motivated by people and stories and how they make them feel.

The story can make the person hearing it feel that they're a part of it. And when that happens, and then you get to the end of the story, the person receiving that story is left with something they can do. In Maryland, when the bill failed, advocates were disappointed, but they weren't ready to give up just yet, and survivors wouldn't stay quiet for long.

[Music]

“Hi listeners, I'm Nancy Glass, host of the burden of guilt season 2 podcast.”

It's a jaw-dropping story of a violent crime in New Orleans that actually never really happened.

I'm excited to share the burden of guilt season 2 story with you, and want to let you know that you can get access to all episodes of season 1, and every single episode of burden of guilt season 2, 100% ad-free with an eye heart, true crime plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to all episodes of burden of guilt season 2. One week ahead of everyone else, available only to eye heart true crime plus subscribers. So don't wait, head to Apple podcasts, and search for eye heart true crime plus, and subscribe today.

Hi I'm Danielle Robay, host of Bookmarked, the podcast by Reese's Book Club, and this week we are talking about a monster,

“or maybe the woman who refused to be one. I'm sitting down with Maggie Gillen Hall to unpack her new film The Bride, and trust me, this isn't your grandmother's bride of Frankenstein.”

It's darker, smarter, sexier, a full reimagining of what happens when the monster gets a voice of her own.

What I was more interested in was the monstrousness inside of each of us. You can spend your life running from those things, or you can turn around and shake hands with them. If I'm honest about that, and I tell my story about monsters really dealing in something truthful, and I do it in a way that's pop, that's hot, that's like getting on a roller coaster, will people respond. Listen to Bookmarked. The Reese's Book Club podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

From iHeart Podcasts, and best case studios. This is Worshack, murder at City Hall. Somebody tell me that!

“July 2003, Councilman James E. Davis arrives at New York City Hall with a guest.”

Both men are carrying concealed weapons, and in less than 30 minutes, both of them will be dead.

Everybody in the chambers ducts, a shocking public murder, a scream, get down, get down, those are shots, those are shots, get down. A charismatic politician, you know, he just bent the rules all the time. I still have a weapon, and I could shoot you. And an outsider with a secret. He alleged he was effective of flat down.

That may have been not been political, that may have been about sex. Listen to Worshack, murder at City Hall, starting on March 25th. On the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Bob Pippman, chairman and CEO of iHeart Media, and I'm kicking off a brand new season of my podcast, Math and Magic, stories from the frontiers of marketing.

Math and Magic takes you behind the scenes of the biggest businesses and industries, while sharing insights from the smartest minds in marketing. I'm talking to leaders from the entertainment industry to finance, and everywhere in between. This season on Math and Magic, I'm talking to CEO of liquid death, Mike Cessaria, but Ann Cier, and public health advocate, Mike Milkin, take to interactive CEO, Strauss Selling. If you're unable to take meaningful creative risk, and therefore run the risk of making horrible creative mistakes, then you can't play in this business.

Sesame Street CEO, Sherry Weston, and our own cheap business officer, Lisa Coffee. Making consumers see the value of a human voice, and to have that guaranteed human promise behind it, really makes it vice at a top. Listen to Math and Magic, stories from the frontiers of marketing, starting March 19th on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. In 2020 in Maryland, the bill to end the marital exemption failed.

But Debbie Feinstein, the prosecutor in Montgomery County, couldn't forget about this law, or about Sasuke's case.

So in 2021, she and other advocates brought the bill again, but again, it failed. The same legislators spoke up, determined to keep it from passing.

“Isn't the whole firm as the marital exceptions that we don't end up in court talking about who said what in the marital bedroom?”

When the bill was brought for a third year, the same objections resurfaced.

It seemed like the marital exemption might be the law of the land forever. But then came 2023. A lot was different about that year. New advocates brought new stories of why the law needed to be repealed. Because of the spousal defense, I was unable to prosecute this man for raping an unconscious woman.

More men testified on behalf of the bill. We must break the cycle of violence and close this vicious loop.

But there was one person's testimony that stood out among the rest.

“It was a survivor's story. We're making the choice to omit her name for her privacy.”

My name is I'm a sexual assault survivor and a victim of this law. Less than a year ago, I was raped by my husband and under the existing law what he did was legal rape. I could not respond verbally or physically completely incapacitated and it constituted consent. Because I was married, I had photographic and video evidence of my assault. And instead of my proof being used to prosecute my rapist, it proved his innocence.

Because this chamber made my rape legal. This law treats spouses as objects not people. We are forced to satisfy sexual desires when we are deprived of strength and power. This is your law and this is rape. You have an opportunity to correct this remnant of our past.

And I'm charging each of you to do that. You've been entrusted with the power to protect your fellow citizens. And please, I implore you. Make the right decision. Provide a path of healing and justice for all future victims like me.

Thank you.

This was the first time that a survivor of marital rape came before the legislature in support of this bill.

Lori Ruth, the public policy advocate in Maryland, remembers her testimony well. Those legislators had to look her in the eye and hear an absolutely horrific story. Immediately, it was clear. The survivor's words broke through. I want to say thank you, that's the most impactful testimony I've ever heard on this bill.

I've heard this a lot too many times. And so I just want to say thank you for your willingness to step forward. Hearing this exchange of a legislator thanking the survivor reminds me of something Stefan said earlier. The story can make the person hearing it feel that they're a part of it. And when that happens and then you get to the end of the story,

the person receiving that story is left with something they can do. After four years in May of 2023, legislators voted to end Maryland's marital exemption. The bill passed the house and the Senate without a single no vote. Today, the law that allowed Mike Levin good to get off easy no longer exists in Maryland. In the last five years, similar reforms have also passed in other states, including Ohio, Minnesota, California, Mississippi, and Rhode Island.

But Stefan says the fight can't stop here. Are the laws progressing? Yes, the laws are progressing.

“Is the United States in a better state than it was five years ago?”

Yeah, it is. Is it better state than 20 years ago? Yeah, is it in a better shape than a lot of other countries? It absolutely is. Is it where it needs to be? No. Five states continue to treat marital rape as a lesser crime, Nevada, South Carolina, Virginia, Michigan, and Iowa.

rate continues to be defined in reference to physical force. Most of us don't know about these laws,

“or even think about them until they affect us or someone we love.”

When Saskia first heard that the bill in Maryland had passed, and that the marital exemption in her state had been overturned. I was like, finally, it makes me feel relieves that I went through all that, not in vain, that there's something good that came out of it. But look how much damage has already been done. Changing the law doesn't change what Saskia lived through, and it's unlikely to change what make things. Saskia not only endured abuse, she endured this law.

A law that told Mike that what he did wasn't rape.

In the end, he may always believe he's innocent.

I don't believe in my heart that I did that, that I wrote her. On the next episode of Betrial, we dive into where Mike is today. I couldn't imagine what it would be like for Saskia to first learn that her perpetrator is selling the experience that he gained from what he did to her. I just can't imagine.

“If you want to learn more about the laws in your state, rain has a database for that. Go to rain.org/betrial.”

That's r-a-i-n-n.org/betrial. Click take action and select laws in your state from the drop-down menu. For resources on sexual violence, visit rain.org/betrial. That's r-a-i-n-n.org/betrial. You can also get free confidential 24/7 support through rain's natural sexual assault hotline. Just text hope to 64673 or call 1-800-656-hope. You are not alone.

If you would like to reach out to the Betrial team or want to tell us your story, email us at [email protected]. Or follow us on Instagram @betrialpod.

“To access additional content and to connect with the Betrial community, join our [email protected].”

We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to rate and review Betrial. 5 star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrial is a production of glass podcasts, a division of glass entertainment group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass in Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Caitlin Golden.

Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique LeBord, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Olivia Hewitt and Leah Jablow, production management by Kristen Melchieri, additional support by Carrie Richmond. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Crime Check. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins with additional editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, her friends and family, and special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie Lieberman.

Betrial's theme is composed by Oliver Baines, music library provided by Mybe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or forever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Danielle Robé, host of Bookmarked, the podcast by Reese's Book Club. And this week we are talking about a monster, or maybe the woman who refused to be one. I'm sitting down with Maggie Gillen Hall to unpack her new film The Bride.

And trust me, this isn't your grandmother's bride of Frankenstein. What I was more interested in was the monstrousness inside of each of us. You can spend your life running from those things, or you can turn around and shake hands with them. Listen to Bookmarked, the Reese's Book Club podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, listeners, I'm Nancy Glass, host of the burden of guilt season 2 podcast.

It's a jaw-dropping story of a violent crime in New Orleans that actually never really happened.

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So I want to get confident.

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