EP: 408 The Flood of Noah: Science and The Bible with Hugh Ross

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Based here, I'm putting science over the Bible. That only the Bible gives us a trustworthy revelation of the past. And I'm ignoring what the Bible says. And I'm claiming that science trumps the Bible.

That's never been my position.

“But I do believe that God has revealed himself through two books.”

The book of nature and the book of Scripture. And the both God has rendered utterly trustworthy and reliable. The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. Enjoy the journey. The Smithsonian, that if they found out about large skeletons somewhere,

was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person is right at us, the parrot. It all goes back to the phone, chair. And the problem with the modern day church,

they had a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop, this is just pregnant with all kinds of meaning, associated with this Mount Hermann of the end. What? And this guy,

defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal.

Welcome into the blurry basement Hugh Ross.

Thank you for coming in today. We're going to talk about all things. Well, we're going to get you to talk about some weird stuff. But more probably more than you're used to on other people's shows. But we have a new book out.

Noah's Flood revisited. We're excited. You're a polygist after physicist, author. And we didn't want to share with you about a year and a half ago. Yeah, you famously told us you didn't play golf.

So you just ran books and you keep pumping them out. It's wild. We just had an empty ride on the show recently. And the guy's written 80 books. I'm thinking you might be coming for the crown.

Yeah, no, no, no. We've got 24. We didn't get to get some time. We're sorry. We didn't ask Nancy right about Bigfoot.

We only had an hour with him. So we had to kind of get right into it. But you live down the street from Bill and Ted's phone booth. So you're here. You're as cool as he gets.

Welcome back to the basement. I would love to get into this book. We've got some time here. We got a little more time with you today. So I don't know how do you kick off this topic.

Obviously, it's controversial in our channels of all the things. But here's the book. Go out there and get it read it. And you can find you in the comments section. Give him a hard time, right?

Yeah, you can. You were excited. Yeah, you can't be giving you a hard time every day. Well, that's us too. But we just asked questions over here.

We're not really presenting a lot. We just try to throw a bunch of stuff out there. See what sticks and we're not afraid of a conversation where people ideas challenge each other. I mean, that's. You like to stir up a little controversy, which is interesting.

I don't think you actually like to. But you end up talking about things being an astrophysicist. And you've written a number of books on Genesis creation. We did that a last episode. We talked about the age of the earth and the uses of word "yah".

But these are like funny enough. Very controversial and hot topics within the Christian community. Including Noah's flood, and I mean, you've been studying this for decades.

“And you wrote about it in Navigating Genesis, right?”

So what made you want to revisit Noah's flood at this point in your career, if you will. Well, it's a book I've been wanting to write for a decade by a purposely weighted. Because I knew scientists were going to be developing really good dates for when humans migrated at the near Middle East and to all the parts of the world. And so that happened a buddy year to a year, two years ago, where they nailed that down. And says, "Hey, if we can nail down Genesis 10 and 11, now we got the tools to nail down what's going on in six, seven and eight of Genesis."

I mean, you also say in the book that it's the most that Noah's flood, specifically it can be one of the most or maybe the most ridiculed part of the Bible. Yeah, I've done surveys on my social media and it's by far the most ridiculed part of the Bible. Well, I mean, I get jumped on by, you know, atheist and agnostics, you say, "How can you as an astrophysicist, possibly believe that the whole world has flooded a few thousand years ago?" And I said, "Well, what makes you think the Bible teaches that?" And they said, "Well, all my Christian friends say that."

And so what I realize is a lot of Christians have only looked at the Genesis chapters to develop their model of the flood.

So it's one of the things I try to do because people are full biblical perspective on what's going on with Noah's flood and low and behold, it's in line with the latest scientific measurements. Well, let's start there. Yeah.

“So for example, only in the New Testament, there's a talk about Noah's role as a prophet. It's not in the Old Testament.”

But in the New Testament, specifically Hebrews and Second Peter, it states that God raised them up to be a prophet to call his generation to repent. And that kind of explains why he was building this ark and why he took many decades to build the ark. He was building it and it desert. And this would get people's attention. Yeah. And so it's served as a pulpit for him to build a preach repentance to his generation.

And if you go into all the biblical texts to deal with how God judges evil, you note that God always sends a prophet before he brings judgment.

And so recognizing Noah's role, primary role as that of a prophet, it gives you a better understanding for why God had him do. What he did, because a lot of people say, hey, if the flood didn't cover the whole world, why didn't God just said Noah moved away. Yeah. Well, that would have ruined his role as a prophet. Yeah.

So 100 years on a floating amphitheater. Yeah. He's yelling at people. Yes. Is that what you're saying?

Yes. And you've got a... But probably we're yelling in a very godly, passionate way. Say, hey, you all need to repent. Stop what you're doing.

Not like the grandpa in the Simpsons. You know, Homer Simpson's dad is yelling out there on the front yard. Yeah. It's actually like you think he's preaching the gospel to all the people around from the boat. Well, you can get some insights by looking at other texts, because I have a whole chapter in the book.

“What does the Bible say about how God judges rampant and societal evil?”

He always sends a prophet, but it's interesting what the prophet does.

I mean, you've got Jonah going to Nineveh. You've got a lot going to Sodom. And so just using those examples, you get an idea of a... And first of all, God is testing. Is the evil really that bad? And you see that with Sodom and Gomorrah, God sends a couple of angels.

Hey, is it really the entire community? And part of what I had to put in the book, because a lot of people say, "Why has it got to the Old Testament?" So different from the God of the New Testament. Notice in the New Testament era, there's no examples of societal reprobation. Or an entire city, an entire nation, including the children, become utterly evil in their behavior.

You have individuals, but you don't have whole societies.

“And the reason why is what Jesus said to his disciples, says,”

"When I leave, and the Holy Spirit comes, and it dwells you, you'll become the salt of the earth." That salt of the earth is a preservative that prevents the outbreak of societal reprobation. So yeah, you've got God coming in and wiping out all the humans in Jericho, including all their animals and all their material possessions.

Never does that in the New Testament, because there's no need. There's no societal reprobation.

And I use the example of what happens when your doctor says, "Hey Luke, you've got a stage for tumor." No. But I don't take it out. You're going to die. Please give me permission to operate on you. And so the surgeon very aggressively removes that tumor, but at good surgeon only removes the malignancy. He leaves a healthy tissue alone. And there's a really good example of that in Genesis 15 and 18, where you have Abraham saying, "Hey,

if there are 20 people in Sodom, will you save it?" And he says, "If there's 20, I'll save it." But that finally realizes, "Oh, the only people left in Sodom that are not utterly overcome by the evil is Lotnus family." And then he says, "To God, what about these wicked amorites living up in the hills with me?" And God says, "The wickedness is not yet reached as fullness. I'm not going to touch him." But 400 years from now, your descendants will deal with him.

So it kind of makes the principle, "God waits until the evil becomes malignant." Or it's in danger of infecting everybody. So in the New Testament, the view of Noah is he's a prophet and the Old Testament. Maybe they didn't view him as that? Well, I'm just saying the Old Testament is silent on his role. It's not totally silent because if you read all the Old Testament texts on how God judges societal reprobation,

So it's like there is no need for God to say that. Assuming you've actually read all the other texts in the Old Testament on God judging reprobates societal evil.

“So that helps the non-Christian who thinks why would God do this?”

What God did with Noah's flood was an act of mercy. Humanity was in danger of self-extermination. And so he stepped in to save humanity from being totally wiped off in the face of yours. You're out in the woods, you're looking, you see something you don't recognize. What do you do in that moment?

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Where does it fork in terms of what people say? Big controversy is people read Genesis 6, 7 and 8, and say, look at how frequently it says all in every. All flesh gets wiped out. All the high mountains get covered with water.

They said, it's explicit. It's got to be global. And so I agree and say yes. You do see the word all and every 29 times in those three chapters.

“So it's basically saying it's universal, but universal to what?”

I'm making a claim in the book that the flood is universal to 100% of humanity in all their animals. But if humans had not yet migrated to Antarctica, why would God wipe out all the emperor penguins? Or why would God say to Noah, you better get some kangaroos on board the art

and some Brazilian slots on the art. If the flood hadn't reached those areas, there'd be no need for him to take him on the art.

So the controversy is how could Noah fit two million species,

two million pairs of animals on board the art? Well, it's all based on the idea that when the text says, all the high mountains were covered with water, all flesh was wiped out. They presume it's a global event,

which is why I have three chapters in the book saying, the history of what Christian scholars said about Noah's flood. It's really interesting not a single Christian scholar explicitly says Noah's flood is global into the end of the 17th century, which is the first time you've got nations, two nations,

namely Holland and Britain with global navies. And the first two scholars to write about the flood being global as a Dutch scholar and an English scholar.

That's the first time humans had a global perspective.

And so they read those texts and they have their global bias that causes them to interpret it that way. But the fact that nobody previous to the 17th century did that tells us, hey, may we better actually look, what does the Bible say about worldwide events?

So again, I got a chapter in the book, let's look at all the places in the Bible where talks about a worldwide event. Interesting not a single one is global.

And you see that explicitly in 2nd Peter 2.5,

God brought the flood upon the world of engodly people, which means as far as engodly people extended, that's all far the flood extended. But I think we can be sure, there were no engodly people at that time living in Greenland

or living in Antarctica, and therefore no need for God to flood those regions. So a lot of the book is, what do we know from science

“about how far humanity had extended at the time of the flood?”

Now that also means we need to nail down when did the flood occur? That's the second big controversy. You got a lot of Christians all over the world claiming the flood happened over 5,500 years ago. If it's that recent, there's going to be physical evidence.

And people point out, there's zero evidence of what you're claiming. And then you actually have people claiming well. They are actually saying that Noah's flood is responsible for 99% of verse geological features. And that really gets attention from the people who are unbelieving scientists saying,

that's utterly absurd, you can't form the Himalayas or the Rockies in a single year. You can't have 40,000 kilometers of platyctonic movement in one year without evaporating all of this water.

And really a ridiculeing the claim that how the global flood happened is a God accelerated radiometric decay

by factor of the billion times.

Well, there's a lot of potassium in your body. Point 2% of it is radioactive. You accelerate that by billion times your body instantly vaporizes. There's no evidence in genesis

“that all the people in board the art vaporize during the flood”

or the art vaporize or the all the water from planet Earth. And where Earth was turned into a molten sphere. I mean, you accelerate radiometric decay by a billion times.

You actually transform Earth into a molten ball. And here they say that because they're trying to match dates. They're trying to make the dating of Rock and sediment in these things match a young, we consider it a young Earth.

This is really the controversy here. You have a young Earth view versus an old Earth view. And young Earth, which will say the Earth is 6,000 years old and they'll say that things like Adam was born at 30. He was born like a fully-form man.

And so God could do the same thing with the Earth, for example. But if you're looking from a scientific standpoint and trying to place a worldwide or global flood at 5,500 years ago as you say, there's no evidence there. We can't find that correct.

Right. We've got a localized flood.

“Because I think what's interesting is we actually had”

a theologian friend that we do a lot with Dr. Joel Mademali who also believes it was a localized flood, which he says is one of the more controversial things he talks about, especially in biblical circles, because you believe the same way.

And you point now just sort of backtrack. You're saying, if you look at the human migration at this point when they're talking about a worldwide flood, this would be the known world, right? Like the extent to which they knew the world,

they hadn't gone to, as you say Australia, or there's no kangaroo harks. And then they might build one down there. They boxed. They made it.

Yeah. How do the kangaroos survive? How does the kangaroos hop all the way into? Yeah, they made it. Well, though, we talked a lot about these subjects here.

I mean, we're out of the box a little bit more, but the Bible says the giants were there before and after. So somehow they survived, right? And we're all in on that topic, and we've gone down that rabbit hole.

That actually claimed me, they didn't survive. That the flood wiped about 100%. No, it's not about that. No, it's not about that. Genesis 6/4.

This sun's a God, returned. Yeah. So there's a new generation of Nefeline. And we try to figure out, we don't know we know. We know there's no explanation where there was another

version or there was like genetic. Well, some people will suggest that they found some mountain climb up and, you know, they have some wild theories and hidden. Survived it somehow, but. But that also your argument is that no, they were all wiped out.

So then.

Well, it's actually critical of the local flood theory,

because usually they're saying, hey, if it took place say in the last 10,000 years, we have lots of evidence of local floods, especially if we push back to say 14,000 years. Yeah.

You get some big floods. The problem is all those local floods would only be able to wipe out a fraction of humanity. That they're too small to wipe out all of humanity. And so I'm arguing the flood is not local. It's not global.

The distinction being the flood is big enough to wipe out all of humanity in all the animals associated with humanity.

That again fits into God's doctrine of judgment that you see in the Book of Leviticus, is that there are certain animals that whose behavior becomes unacceptable. For example, it talks about the bull that's goring other animals and goring people. And when that happens, you're supposed to talk to the owner. And if the cow continues to exhibit that behavior,

Leviticus says the cow must be killed in the owner along with the cow. The owner is well responsible. He's responsible for the cow behaving that way. It's not that cows sin. Likewise, the mean dog syndrome.

It's not that the dog is a sinner. It's of both the dog and the cow are highly motivated to please their human owner. And if what brings pleasure to the human owner is their dog viciously attacking other people and animals,

“that's how the dog will behave, likewise with the cow.”

If the owner gets pleasure from the cow goring other people and other animals, that's how the cow will behave. But that reads raises a point. Only certain animals bond to humans to that degree. And what you see in Genesis 7 and 8, it uses seven distinct Hebrew words for the animals that God judges by the flood. And people look at the text and says, "Hey, it says all flesh."

But if you actually looked at the original Hebrew words,

and so it's basically making a point, all in the flesh bizarre get wiped out.

And the flesh refers to what the Hebrew is basically saying, a solar animal. An animal that has the ability to express emotions to members of its own species, but also to his humans. That's why we make pets of birds and mammals. All birds and mammals are part of the fish. And they have the capability of being tamed by us and the capability of relating to us as a pet.

That's not true of salamanders, it's not true of fish, it's not true of mosquitoes. So lots of animals are not in that category. And bizarre means that they're in relationship with us. And with the book of Leviticus tells us, it's only those animals that can be damaged by human sin. If they have no contact with us, they can't be damaged.

And if they're not in the Nefesh category, they can't be damaged. So those are the ones that are wiped out. Those are the ones that are wiped out. And the principle there, there are no humans in North and South America. There's no need for Noah to grab a pair of sloths and put them on board the arc, because they would have had zero contact with them.

They're up in the trees, and they're asleep.

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It's a very strategic detailed. And I'm arguing that it's consistent with every other instance where God judges a reprobate society.

It's always an exact, strategic cleansing.

He removes all the malignancy but he keeps everything healthy alive.

“So besides Sodom in the flood, what other deluge do you have you studied?”

There's rumors, this happened to Atlantis and some of these other places that rumor to exist. Is there any other evidence to suggest that the flood is kind of a similar model of how God judged a territorial or a speculation? Like 75 hundred years ago, the Black Sea got in and dated.

People say, "Ah, that's no less flood." The problem was the inundation was very slow. And people could see the Black Sea level rising. They could walk away from it. When you read Genesis, we're talking a very sudden inundation.

Sodom people are able to escape it. And moreover, I would say 75 hundred years ago, that's too recent. 75 hundred years ago, you got humans living in Australia, North America and South America. So I'm arguing that the flood was earlier. That's another reason for controversy.

As you mentioned, a lot of Christians think the genealogies will give you good dates. And so I actually put in the book there. People believe that what's interesting, they calculated date for the flood, starting with Adam and using the genealogies. And then they go from Abraham and they go back towards Noah.

And then again, they're using genealogies. Those two methods give you two dates that differ by one another for a by a hundred and ten years. That alone should tell you that genealogies cannot be used to give accurate dates. They can give you rough ideas of the progression of time. But we should not be using the genealogies to develop dates.

Maybe look at all the biblical genealogies. Virtually every one of them drops generations. Yeah, they can tell you what's important, right?

“In some ways, and they skip over things that aren't, right?”

Right. And some of them are trying to make a theological point. Some of the genealogies make a point of mentioning not the men, but the women. Making the point the gospels for both men and women. And notice the women it mentions, "Ray have been tamar. These are women that committed rather grievous sins."

Basically saying, "Hey, if you're a sinner and you repent, you're in." Yeah. And so on purpose, mentions individuals, and on purpose, it drops certain individuals. So, I mean, obviously something we've known over the years is that people bring a lot of emotional stuff into biblical stories. They thought about the flood long before they read the story of the flood.

And then they come into the scriptures, and then anyone who says anything differently, like that just people's thoughts on angels. Angels and humans, there's no way they can cross, you know, in a breed or anything like that. They've already determined that, and they're mindful of where they read the Bible, and then they come up with them while the explanation of why that's not possible.

It's like, "I don't have a lot of emotional attachment at this point in my life. Two a lot of these." I just want to, "I'm just curious, I want to know, what do you think the baggage of people bring into the conversation with the flood that makes them reactive to when you say things?"

Yeah, I mean, I've never gotten such an emotional reaction since this book came out.

I haven't called every name under the sun. And it's like people are saying, "You're ruining my child's experience." I mean, they had these flannel graphs of all these happy animals coming up in the art. And now you're saying, "Hey, no king is bigfoot in there." It didn't come out there. Bigfoot didn't come out in the art outside.

Isn't it North America? Yeah, it's North America. Some trees. Yeah, so they're attacking you. They're attacking me because I'm spoiling their idea of what the Bible actually says. It's also illuminating me. I mean, I've been a pastor for five decades, and it's like, this book is really taught me.

There are people who think they know the Bible well,

but they've never taken the time to read through it, cover it, cover it, cover it.

Yeah, it's like, I'm hoping this book will motivate and hey, you think the story of Genesis flood is just in three chapters. You need to read the whole story. And hopefully they'll begin to read through all the biblical books and be able to draw their own conclusion.

Yeah, what changes though if it's a more strategic flood,

“universal flood? Yeah, then just a universal flood. What do you think?”

Why do you think they'd have to defend that so fiercely? Well, they're thinking that the flood was fifty-five hundred years ago. I'm saying hey, it's probably, you know, sixty to ninety thousand years ago.

they're merely saying, this guy, you Ross must be a heretic. That's way too far back in time. And so they react to that. They react to the fact that hey, doesn't the text say all the high mountains were covered. I said, well, you're getting that out of the Genesis seven, nineteen and twenty.

Have you read the next chapter? And it's like that kind of stunsen. Hey, of course I've read the next chapter. Well, what do you see? In Genesis eight five, you've got Noah on top of the arc.

He looks out and he can see the distant hills. Then he releases a dove, Genesis eight nine, later in the text.

“And what does it say of the dove that dove returns to know in the art?”

Because all the dove could see was water over the whole face of the earth. Go back to Genesis seven, nineteen. When it talks about water covering all the high hills and mountains, that's Noah on top of the arc.

Basically saying from one horizon to the opposite horizon,

all I can see is water. And so it tells us the flood was extensive enough that there was water over the whole view of Noah on top of the arc. The text is not saying that Mount Everest was covered. It's basically saying all Noah could see was water from one horizon to the other.

You get that just by looking at Genesis eight five and eight nine. Then also recognizing and talks about all the high hills. The two Hebrew words there. It can mean the word for mountain.

“And then a hard can mean hill or mountain or mountain.”

So if you got a mountain in your backyard, that's a hard. So it's not saying that Mount Everest was covered. It's just saying all the hills, mountains that Noah could see were covered with water. And when it says a high hills, the same word means elevated. So it means all the elevated relief that Noah could see.

Originally Hebrew, you get a different picture from one a lot of English readers seeing. That's something else I've noticed and coming out with a book. It's people who speak English that could really upset about my book. It's people who speak Korean and Japanese. Yeah.

What's interesting about those three languages, they all have a vocabulary size bigger than half a million words.

Yeah. They look on Hebrew only three thousand words. That's assuming you don't count the names of people in cities. So do you feel like there's other stories?

“Like obviously the water was supernaturally manipulated in the story of Moses, right?”

Taking going through the red sea and then all the other evil was destroyed. Is there some sort of tie? I feel like a lot of times we see the tie between different biblical stories and how the themes interact. How does a world get flooded in a localized area with the water spilling out into the next town? How does that happen?

Is there some kind of Moses event happening there? Yeah. I mean very good point because people think I'm coming up with a naturalistic explanation. I'm saying hey, a flood extensive enough to wipe all human beings. What's all the animals?

It's got to be a supernaturally event. Yeah. I mean, you got to get God working in such a way to bring all that water into a location. Fast enough. The text tells about 40 days and 40 nights of torrential rain in a desert location. So, and then there's a tectonic event that brings up water from the underground aquifers.

The thing that caught my attention, the first time I read through Genesis at age 17,

is it says the flood lasted a whole year. And right away I said hey, you got God supernaturally intervening to bring all this water into that region. But water flows downhill. Yeah. It's going to go out into the Indian Ocean.

Something has to replace the water, the flows out. And we've had big floods here in North America that lasted several months. In every case, it was snow melt that explained why lasted that long. The liquid water flows under the Gulf of Mexico, or under the St. Lawrence, and snow melt replaces the water flows out.

Interesting thing about ice and snow, it melts slowly because of the heat of fusion of water. Very slow melt, and explains why we have all these rivers all over the world at flow every day of the year. And it's because it's being fed by slowly melting ice and snow. And so I argue that the flood must be an Ice Age event. Again, going all the way back to when it was 17, it has to be an Ice Age event.

And that's right in the text of the last one year in 10 days.

We need a lot of water, so what I point out in the book is what's interesting about the previous Ice Age. They were eight really major melt events. And I'm also disturbing people's ideas about the Ice Age cycle. Most people think, oh, the Ice Age cycle, you get a 10,000 year period, where it's nice and warm. 90,000 years, where the planet is covered 23% with ice. The previous Ice Age, we know, was more complex than that.

You would thousands of feet of ice freezing over the land masses. Then you have a melt event, or thousands of feet thickness of ice melts, then it freezes. So you've got eight major melt and freezing events. We're literally land masses covered with thousands of feet of ice. The ice does this, and the ice goes back up, ice does this, ice goes back up. So I argue probably one of those major melt events would be consistent with the flood of Noah.

But we don't have the scientific evidence that they will tell which one it is.

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which will be the closest witness to that event, and it's super powerful.

Well written, beautifully illustrated, makes you slow down and really think about maybe perhaps what the tree experienced that day. And if you've heard the Easter story a thousand times, this story is like hearing it all over again for the first time. And it's got amazing illustrations, Nate. Something that you can really share with your kids, that will keep them engaged. And it's going to tell that story of the ultimate sacrifice that Christ made for us.

“I remember it showed up at my front porch, and I read it to my kids in that night, and my kids were asking questions about it the next day.”

And I did putting all these graphics together for blurred creatures all the time. I was really impressed by the illustration in the book. And it's really cool, something you can experience at your kids and family out there, just read a story.

And kids always find interesting things to connect to when they hear a story for the second time, and third time, fourth time.

In a different perspective, so step inside the story, hear the witness and experience Easter like never before. Check out Tim Teebo's book if the tree could speak on Amazon. So head over to Amazon now, that's if the tree could speak by Tim Teebo or your copy on Amazon today. [Music] So you're going to break with scientists sometimes, and then break with young earth creationists sometimes.

And you're kind of out on your own a little island there, in terms of no pun intended. Well, yes, but when people listen, I mean, I got, as soon as this book came out last October, I spoke to a group of scientists. They're all in different disciplines, most of them were Christians. But they actually listened to what I had to say about, and they said, "This solves all the problems." And likewise had a chance to speak to theologians, and they said, "This solves all the biblical problems."

So people actually go through the book, they get really exciting, because they said, "Everything that bothered me about the flood." I'm now recognizing, "Hey, I can trust that the Bible is giving me an accurate, literal historical account of the flood. That's consistent with what the God reveals in his book of nature." Yeah, I wanted to ask about this specifically when you did it, because he says something interesting here, and we were talking pre-roll, and I know that we've had a few folks on the show that have hypothesized, or possibly that perhaps the younger driest event, right?

This common impact on the ice sheet was, we could be the impetus or sort of the natural that God's allowed to happen, that causes the flood. You said that you actually believe it happened earlier, and you kind of laid out a few things where there are multiple melting and freeze-in events in an ice age.

“I know in the book you have throws, but how do you date, and when do you think, what is your hypothesis for when the no-aic flood happened, and how did you arrive at where you believe it is?”

Well, the younger driest event is a major, freezing event followed by a major melt event, and it's about 11,000 to 12,000 years ago. The reason I'm not comfortable with that, it's too recent, by that time you got humans living in North American, South American Australia, which is why people say,

So, and moreover, it's not one of the major melt-freezy events. During the previous Ice Age, there are other melt-freezy events that were much more dramatic than what you see in the younger driest.

“I'd be appealing to those, but what's brand new in the book is how research scientists have been able to date when humans migrated out of the near and Middle East and Eastern Africa into all of Africa, all of Europe, and all of Asia and Australia.”

What's interesting, this called the Great Migration Events, and something the scientists have known about for several decades, but for the first time, we got multiple reliable accurate dates for when those events happened. The thing that startled me in reading through the scientific literature on this, the dates are all the same. You get Northern Europe settled the same time. As Southern Europe, you got Australia settled at the same time as Europe. You got Japan and Borneo being settled at the same time. You got Western Africa being settled at the same time. Moreover, we don't have just one dating method. We got four methods, and so one method, for example, is that we know Adam and Eve had to be cooking their food because we humans don't have the strength in our jaw muscles or the bones in our jaw or in our teeth.

Or in our teeth, to be able to survive on nothing but raw food. We have to be able to soften our food by cooking it. And by cooking it, we're able to eat foods that our animals can't eat. So it's now well established. The earliest humans were eating vegetables and grasses that were poisonous to other species of life.

“Because we roasted it and we boiled it and we ground it and made it safe to eat. And made it soft enough that we can consume lots of calories in a short period of time.”

As I want to think scientists is said okay, what's the earliest evidence we have in Northern Europe for people cooking their food? What about southern Europe? What about Asia? What about Africa? So it's one tool we have for dating when those migration events happen.

So one is while there's human remains, let's you know get the human skeletons and we can use that to date when people first began to inhabit Northern Europe in Australia.

“Another method is to look at the relics that are associated with them. Only humans were building complex tools like bows and arrows.”

Like where we take an axe and you put a metal with it. Only humans were engaged in metal urging. And that's something new in the book too. People think well the iron age didn't happen until 3,000 years ago.

We now know that people living in northern regions during the last size age were gathering stainless steel meteorites. So they fall in the snow, they're dark, they're easy to spot, they pick them up.

A quarter of the meteorites that fall are better to sustain the steel than which you can buy from the steel factory. And so those people were cold forging them into complex tools. So people look at that evidence and then you actually look at the genetic evidence. Now let's look at the DNA and see when it diversifies and the diversification would be evidence when those migration events happen. So for independent methods of multiple populations all come in at 40 to 50,000 years ago. And moreover these are carbon-14 calibrated dates. So the problem we can get earlier than 50,000 years up to about 260,000 years, there's no radio isotope clock available, but carbon-14 is good from about a thousand years ago to about 50,000 years ago. So these are not just indirect dating methods or direct dating methods.

And so that tells me, okay, now we know what's going on with Genesis 10 and 11. And people often try to interpret the flood without looking at Genesis 10 and 11. Yeah, Genesis 10 and 11, you get God speaking to Noah and he says multiply and fill the earth. But the tone is different than which you see God speaking the same statements to Adam, implying that Adam's progeny failed to multiply and fill the earth. So God is speaking in very direct language to Noah, hey, don't screw up this time. You need to multiply and fill the earth.

Humanity was resolute in the rebellion against God's command to spread out over the whole of the earth. And so we see in Genesis 11, God forcibly scatters humanity, gives them different languages.

“That's something else we can do. We can date when languages went from one to multiple, again they're consistent with a 40 to 50,000 years ago.”

So that's become the tower of Babylon event. That's a tower of Babylon event. Let's go upstream from that to because you had to have all these people that were descendants of Noah, right? So you had to have, you had to be downstream enough to have all these people. But upstream enough that you didn't have them. Yeah, I'm arguing the great migrations happen after the tower of Babylon. Yeah, and the fact that we see Northern year southern year Borneo, Japan, Australia, all being settled at the same time, gives me credence that would just see in Genesis 11, actually is literal true history.

God forcibly scattered humanity or the face of the earth. I mean, because otherwise if it's just humans working without any divine intervention,

you'd expect the migrations to be spread over a period of time. You'd expect, say, Northern year to be settled quite a bit later than southern year.

“It's warm in southern year. It's cold in northern year. Wouldn't it make sense that Northern year be settled?”

Yeah, and that's also interesting. During the last size age, you got a huge plane above Siberia. And when we now know is a human settled that plane between Siberia and the North Pole, they didn't settle Siberia. Siberia was cold. This plane was very just a little bit above sea level. And during the last size age, sea levels were as much as 390 feet lower. So this plane above Siberia became above sea level. And because of how flat it was, that's where people settled. It was warmer than Siberia. And you get that settled again at the same time as what you see in Australia and Northern Europe.

So this looks like God must have been intervening. How do you get people north of Siberia towards the North Pole and as God's motivating and to get there? So you stick this pin in and you say, here's an event. Here's an event. We know we've got four different evidence evidentiary streams that point to this timing for a for human migration patterns being scattered.

“See this in Genesis. So if you put that stake in the ground there, right? How much farther back are you are you poshly and that we then have a flood is it 10,000 years is it?”

Yeah, more than 1,000 years. It's got to be more than 50 because we see in Genesis 11. There's quite a few generations between Noah and the Tower of Babel incident. Yeah. And we know that genealogy isn't complete. So there has to be several thousand years between the great migrations and Noah's flood. So I'm arguing that, you know, a reasonable date for Noah's flood is 60 to 90,000 years ago. A conservative date would be say 55 to 115,000 years ago.

That's conservative. And people say, can't you be more accurate? The problem is we're now in an era where all a scientific methods are indirect with huge systematic errors.

Often unknown systematic errors. And again, I got a piece in the book where I say, be careful when you read the scientific literature about events in that time era because typically the scientists only give you the statistical errors, the measuring errors. They don't address the systematic errors where there's some locally effect that would shift all the measurements thousands of years earlier or thousands of years later. And the reason you don't see that in their papers, they have no idea what they are. They do know what the statistical errors are, so they quote those.

But so you'll see a day. Hey, we've found this relic. It's 80,000 years ago, plus or minus 5,000 years. You're only getting the statistical error. If you throw in the systematic error, it could be a plus or minus 40,000 years. It's interesting because, like, I think how to think about these things is difficult for a lot of Christians. A big part of the emotional reaction is just, it's just the dates, how many years. They just think that it's younger, so it has to be anything you say, they have to kind of throw it out the window.

I mean, there's a lot of people that don't even believe spaces real, that listen to our show. So anything we present that deals with the constellations moving stars, star, Bethlehem, all these other things. They can't accept any of that. And then you have scientists who have these major blind spots.

I mean, the fact that you got people living hundreds of years before the flood, not so after the flood, I had to put in the book, hey, we astronomers know that there was a major nearby supernova event that's responsible for over 90% of the killer cosmic rays we experience.

“There's a reason why none of us are going to make it past 120 years. We're exposed to radiation, but people before Noah's flood wouldn't be exposed to that radiation.”

Therefore, they had the potential to live longer.

Do you think that was the canopy of water? No, canopy doesn't work, canopy's not going to stop the cosmic rays. Okay, because that's a weird part of the story, too. There's water above and below. What does that mean? I don't know. That's a big controversy. Yeah, only recently though. What's happened recently, since the very late 20th century, for the first time you had Bible translations, translating the word rocky e as a vault over the earth. Or as before, all the translations set of permanent and expanse or the sky. This is new where they're putting the vault over and the reason for that is that there is this idea that the ancient peoples believe that the world was flat with a metal dome over it.

Yeah, with slew soles in it that explain not a lot of modern people believe this. Yeah, there was water above that, and how that explains the rain and the stars are attached to the inside of the vault.

It's not so much in this book, but a book I wrote called Rescuing an Air Sea that I published a year before this book.

Makes the point the ancients weren't that stupid. They knew the stars were very, very far away because they tried to measure the distances using basic trigonometry and they couldn't do it.

“So that's how they discern the stars had to be bodies like the sun, but so far away that they seem as these little points of light, and also they knew that there's a limit to how far you can pump up water.”

The ancient peoples were irrigating their fields. This is true in Mesopotamia, which is true in Egypt.

They used things like Archimedes screws to pump water up in the river and put it up to the agricultural land.

They knew they can only do that for a few feet. It takes air pressure to actually make all that work. The idea that there was water together with water on the ocean, thousands of feet over a dome. They knew that that was all incorrect.

“And I've been having to cite people, or take people to a paper that's online, written by a couple of scholars, seven-day Adventist scholars, as titled "The Myth of the Ancient Heavenly Dome".”

Making the point, yes, you'll see it in the fantasy literature of ancient peoples, but it's not in their historical or scientific literature. And it's a 40-page paper, and a very devastating way of saying, none of the ancient scientists believe that any of this is true. They all knew that the earth was a spherical body. Nobody believed in the flat earth. In fact, this idea of ancient believing in the flat earth, you don't see that until the 18th century. In the Enlightenment, you had people in Europe who were trying to attack the Christian faith.

So one way they did it is say, well, the ancient Jews believe the world is flat. It's in the Bible, guys, because it talks about the four corners of the earth, and therefore they believed in the flat earth. They believed in this dome over the flat earth. And analogy I've used, it'd be similar to archaeologists, 2000 years from now, digging in the ruins of Hollywood, and coming up with these film canisters, and they look at the canisters, and they say, boy, those people in the 20th century, they were sure ignorant. They believed utter scientific nonsense.

You know, they're looking at the film canisters of the Flintstones, where you've got these people working in work quarries, using dinosaurs to, as cranes. And that's our fantasy literature. It's not our scientific literature, and what these people overlooking is, humans are distinct. We are compelled to engage in fantasy literature, even to the detriment of our survival. Missionaries I know who have worked with primitive stone age tribes, there are maze at how much time and energy they devote to telling stories, and recording these stories.

And that actually stimulates our brain and makes that one of the reasons why we humans are so inventive, I mean, it's creativity.

“Yeah, it's a creativity. And so filling to recognize that the ancients did that just like we do it.”

And so, yeah, they all knew that the earth was spherical. It's easy because if you walk north, you see different constellations, and you do if you walk south. And so they figured that out, they even measured the diameter of the earth for looking at the constellations, or looking at the shadow that an obelisk would have, say, in southern Europe, compared to northern Europe.

It's quite easy to show that we have to be living on a spherical body, even determine its size, and even figure out that the sun had to be the center of the solar system.

People think the ancients were sure stupid. They believed the earth was the center of the solar system. They didn't. Told me did not have algebra. The only way he could calculate the future positions of the planets is to do the math from an earth center perspective. It wasn't Copernicus that discovered that the sun was the center of the solar system. What Copernicus did, he left Poland and went to Italy and read the ancient manuscripts. And said, "Oh, these ancient peoples had all figured out. The sun is the center of the solar system, but they liked the math to determine the positions of future planets from the sun's center perspective."

“You should just love kicking the bees nest in there. But this is actually, I think we can hold it back to Noah's mother, because like every ancient culture has a flood narrative, right?”

Everything from Gilgamesh to the Erdogan Genesis to these things, and so that anthropological standpoint as well.

And I don't know if we have evidentiary stuff, but we have this, as we talk about narrative, that narrative that exists across all cultures. Well, even here in the Americas, North and South America, over 300 distinct flood legends. So why do all these different American tribes have these flood legends? Unless they took the story with them? That's another argument that Noah's flood must predate the great migrations. People were taking the flood stories with them.

“And what you notice is the more distant you get from the near and middle east, the more distorted the story becomes. But the all of something the ancient telephone game.”

Yeah, it's the ancient telephone game. It just gets weirder. But they kept the essentials. How big, so if you could draw a circle around how big you think the flood it was. And then it's an ICG event. We can't determine the exact extent of the flood. But how big, like, if you can multiple countries size or like a size of a state. And also look to that question. Can I add it? At this point are we assuming that like the most of you may lives in the fertile crescent area. That's where in that. I'm arguing that at that time humanity wasn't just living in the fertile crescent. They were living in regions beyond that. Okay, so we're talking about a big flood big enough to in and date not just the Middle East, but also the Near East and also parts of Western Africa.

So what I've done is to show people this is the minimum extent of Noah's flood, but even the minimum extent is four times bigger than the Mesopotamian valley. The largest extent, but take it all the way up to the Caspian Sea. I would cover almost the entirety of the near Middle East where the elevation is low because humans at that time I'm arguing we're living at relatively low elevations probably living in sedimentary plains. Again, that would explain how they could live here in 900 years. If you're exposed to igneous rocks, you're not going to live that long. So if you guys could explain that. Well, igneous rocks, which would be like granite, it contains uranium and thorium.

So we put these in our counters in our houses and we're frying ourselves. Yeah, you're gonna run in your house. We do. I'm not worried about I mean California's loaded with granite. Yeah, Colorado's loaded with granite makes sense. Actually, it's a lot of paranormal stuff associated with granite. There is and I recognize it because I live in a state where there's a lot of granite and because I hike a lot in the mountains with a lot of granite in it, that's going to short my lifespan by about three months.

Well, that's where the most missing people go. It's in use 70 valley where all the granite is. It's where like the people that talk about people just going through almost like the granite opens portals and they're just walking through them from our, I don't know, that's a weird uranium those uranium. I don't recognize any of the future where you're just going to go to a suitcase full of pinball parts. So you're running away. The granite's going to be a lot of back to the agency. Well, the whole point is you're living in a sedimentary plane. You're not exposed to quite the uranium and thorium that people who live in high mountains are exposed to.

Also, what they tell me is, hey, we can call right a light to exercise because we exercise.

Well, we live several years longer than you live in Nebraska as they were saying. Like we find the front of the great planes and live out there and you don't have to exercise as much. So I'm getting out of this. I will say, he likes to skip kind of back into the time of things. A lot of people come on our show. Obviously, we talk about the Nephilim and the giants and lots of people. But a lot of people theorize these were dynasties and these took a long time to build the men of renowned and genesis wasn't just, oh, they were famous for a few years. They built empires that were around a while.

And you would need more time to kind of cultivate those.

“Well, yeah, I think about the things like the Sumerian King and the Estamian Kings that they ran for these thousands of thousands of years.”

Now, we can talk about fantasy literature and that could be part of this. But also, if we're talking about just a pyramid to say, like some of those. You expand your timeline to like a hundred thousand years as you're posh later or more. Then you actually have space for not only the building of these massive structures, but also an excellent point. There's has to be several thousand years between the great migration events in Noah because of what you see in Genesis 11. I mean, there has to be a lot of generations. They're building all these cities.

I mean, it's a sophisticated community. So it's not just a few years. And I would argue you're probably looking at about 10,000 years between the great migration events in Noah's flood, which is why I say, hey, 60 to 90,000 years ago. And also, if you put it back 60 to 90,000 years ago, you eliminate the genetic challenges.

“Because people say, hey, how do you get all the humanity to send it from eight people on board, Noah's Ark?”

Look at the genetic diversity we have today. But if you put the flood early enough, you eliminate the genetic challenge. And so a lot of unbelievers say, hey, you Christians have to be crazy to believe that the Bible is gaining special, but it's because they're thinking the Bible is putting humanity at 10,000 years ago. And they're saying, we have genetic evidence that refutes that kind of nonsense. You, what ways have you had to emotionally rearrange the furniture to something you were certain? This is the how it was for a long time and you're obviously probably have changed your mind a lot in your life. What are some things that are the hardest to change your mind about?

Well, even when I've picked up the Bible for the first time at age 17 and began to look at the flood text, the interpretation I developed isn't a whole lot different from what I hold today.

“I mean, I've read through the text, and one thing I did is the young man is says, I'm not going to draw any conclusions about what I'm reading until I've read the whole book.”

So I, for an 18 month period, I was going through the Bible chapter by chapter, looking at all the details, waiting till I got to revelation before I drew any conclusions. And that's where I began to see all the pieces fitting together. Oh, what we see in Psalm 104 is relevant to Noah's flood. Psalm 104 has a statement never again will water cover the whole face of the earth. Interestingly, it's addressing creation day three, because Psalm 104 is a creation Psalm, goes through the events of the six creation days of Genesis one.

And versus six seven and eight, it's addressing creation day three when God transforms her planet from a water world to a world where there's oceans and continents coexisting. So until creation day three, water cover the whole face of the earth, then that forward we have oceans and continents.

First nine, which immediately follows says, never again will water cover the whole face of the earth.

Well, that right away eliminates a global flood for Noah. And moreover, it's not the only text. It's addressed again in Job 38. It's addressed again in three other creation Psalms. And it's addressed in Proverbs 8. So you go multiple texts telling us, once the continents are in place, the water will never again cover the whole face of the earth. Now, the pushback of God and from people believe in a global flood, they say, "You're citing the wisdom books." Those books are all poetry. And we have to interpret the poetry in the Bible and lighten the narrative that we see in Genesis.

But that's not what I learned in her manoeudic classes. When I learned in her manoeudic classes, we interpret the narrative in light of the didactic texts, the didactic being a technical term, the texts that teach straight doctrine.

Those are the most explicit texts in the entire Bible teaching the doctrine of the Trinity. So I'm arguing, you can't discount Job and Proverbs and the Psalms because it's poetry. It's just the vessel, right? It's the vessel which is which the doctrine of the truth or the theology is delivered. Yeah, and I also argue, it's an English language bias. In English, our poetry is not the tool we use to teach to dactic truth. We use pros.

But in Hebrew, it's different. Hebrew poetry is a powerful tool for communicating specific truths.

And so, again, it's people who have large vocabulary languages that tend to get really upset about this issue. What do you think is the most common objection you get from believers? When you talk about scientific things, as you will talk about the flood, we talk about the creation of the earth, talk about astrophysics and the creation of the universe.

These things you've all written on. What is the most common objection when you are, and you said this on our first interview, that God gives us a book of theology, the Bible,

“and then gives us a book of science, so things we can measure and observe, right? What's the biggest objection you get from Christians?”

I would say that you're doing too much science in the Bible. They say I'm putting science over the Bible, that only the Bible gives us a trustworthy revelation of the past, and I'm ignoring what the Bible says, and I'm claiming that science trumps the Bible. That's never been my position, but I do believe that God has revealed himself through two books, the book of nature and the book of Scripture, and the both God has rendered utterly trustworthy and reliable. However, science is not the same as the record of nature. It's our interpretation of the record of nature, and likewise our theology, our interpretation, is not the same as the words of God in the Bible.

And so I'm saying to my friends who claim that I'm using science to trumps Scripture, hey, if your theology is not consistent with your science, you know you've made a mistake in interpreting out of the book of nature, the book of Scripture, and it's quite possible you're misinterpreting both.

“So this is a signal that God is giving you, you need to re-examine the revelation, and see if you made a mistake in this interpretation, or if you're bringing a human bias into bear here.”

Yeah, that's why God gave us two books because the books are designed to cooperate one another, so it helps us identify where we've made an interpretation error. If we only gave us one revelation, we would be constrained in our capacity to identify our misinterpretations.

It's why God gave us 66 books in the Bible is that we see that we have a conflict between how we interpret Genesis and how we interpret Hebrews, we know we've made an interpretation error.

There used to be an element of humility throughout the whole process. And I think sometimes we say, well, you don't read the Bible, and I'm like, well, a lot of people come to different conclusions when they read it, you know, and everyone says that their way of reading it's the correct way, it requires a lot of stepping back, and like you said, reading the whole thing first. But even then, we've caught with some wild conclusions that Christians don't have a unilateral cohesive agreement on anything.

Well, that's one one motivation for reading the book because I run into so many people who are not followers of Jesus Christ, who think every Christian believes that the flood happened less than 6,000 years ago, and it covered the whole planet. So one of the things I'm trying to do and saying, that's not correct. If you look at people who lived thousands of years ago, they had different views. Yeah. What is interesting, though, is when you look at say the early church fathers or the Middle East scholars and what they thought about the flood, they had different ideas, but they treated one another with grace, humility, and love, sure.

You don't see the kind of attacks that are so common in our era where Christians are going at one another and say, wait a minute, non-Christians are watching us.

“If we're this hostile to one another, are they going to trust us?”

Well, I think the same spirit of religion that existed in the religious elite in Jesus' day, I still hear it. And I think the spirit of religion is definitely one of the first things that attacks you when you become a Christian forces you back into the box.

You know, that's a good thing. What I tell people that are reasonably staff, if nobody is persecuting us, we're having no impact. And we're only being persecuted by unbelievers, we're out of balance. Yeah. If we're only being persecuted by Christians, we're out of balance. Yeah.

If we're being persecuted equally by people who claim to be Christians and people who are not Christians, we're probably in a good place. And we say that about, like, at your point a minute ago, about, like how the ancients have that viewed things and they had a little bit more humility with each other in disagreements. I mean, for a long time, the genus is a six narrative that, you know, angels and humans were in relations with each other was accepted amongst the early church. And then it, like, later became this divisive part of the church when they're like, now that's impossible.

We're going to rewrite that and say, the sons of Seth was in, that was the line of the sons of God. And we're going to really kind of rewrite this whole story. And it kind of requires us to just speak to audience, a lot of open-mindedness to go back to Genesis 6 and kind of read it like an ancient and be like, no, there was this time when they were, when they were hanging out with each other. And or Genesis 1, or Genesis 10 and a lot of that we've discovered in this. It's like, there's a, you know, I think your point two doesn't make a joke, but I think, like, you know, if you disagree with someone theologically as an early church father, you had to like write a long letter.

You couldn't just like send off a little trolling tweet where you had instant gratification. You actually had to like collect your thoughts, provide an argument and think about it. And I think we live in this sort of instant gratification. There where someone has a visceral response, people who have response to, to books to hypothesis that they can just fire off that visceral emotional response without having to like, draw it out. If you're just as, if you're just an africanist or you're,

“Clement and you disagree with theologically with one of the other church fathers, you would have to write it out and explain it and then you have to think through it. It was a, it was a letter.”

Some point, Luke, because what I've seen is that people who really go after me and call me all these nasty names, none of them have read the book. Yes, none of them have heard me give a lecture on the charting. They assume I believe something I don't believe.

Well, this will happen in this, in this episode, without fail, we'll create clips from this there, then we'll, and we'll put them out there and people will watch a 30 second clip.

Maybe watch five seconds of a 30 second clip, not listen to the episode, not listen to a hypothesis or your argument that you've built or your, your data that's take that on its face and say, I, I, I, I, I wholly reject this based upon five seconds or based upon it's huge loss, I don't even need to listen to it, right? And, and I think that's, I said, the frustrating part, but to your point, though, I think the real disservice would be to not put out sound theology and sound science and in, in your work, because the pushback is the fact that you're making waves, right?

The pushback is the fact that people are, are having to rearrange their furniture. You're having to rethink the presuppositions they, they've brought to the table when it comes to the flood or the creation of the earth or the creation of the universe.

“Well, every time we do an episode, something rattles loose and you have to kind of make more room for it, just saying the dynasties of the Nephilim and how long they were there around pushes back the narrative.”

Or, you know, you're talking about metallurgy, you know, how do they know how to do that? Well, a lot of the guys come on our shows say that the angels taught us how to do this things. Like, they're, we traded information technologies back in the day, because there's this technology that's ancient. They knew how to do things beyond cooking food way long ago. And the technology and build these things.

Some of these mega-lethic structures are like the pyramids. It's advanced building techniques out of stone. How do they know how to do all this? It's, say, the, the knowledge is, it's much older and how long they were.

“But I want to flip that question though, and I ask you this, like, what pushback are you doing from the scientific community?”

When you write about something that's in the Bible, like in that way, it's flood.

Well, the first pushback I get is why you even trying to defend the Bible.

We all know the Bible teaches nothing but nonsense, right? So I get that right away. And then when I get them to calm down a little bit and say, hey, it's impossible. You're misreading the text because the same people say, well, I'm not going to read that book. Genesis teaches the world as flat.

I said, well, give me the chapter in the verse. And of course, nothing and the Bible talks about the world being flat. But what's interesting is the Bible actually gives us a lot of content teaching us that the world is a spherical body, not a flat body.

The problem is that we live in an age, not sure it's just our age, or people are vividly illiterate.

Or they claim to have read the Bible, but they've read pieces of it over a couple of decades. They've never taken the time to read through the Bible, cover to cover, you know, in a short period of time.

I think that Pharisees did the same thing we do. They rolled by. They heard something Jesus said for 30 seconds and then they freaked out.

They freaked out. They didn't actually listen to the whole body of what he was teaching. It's like, wait, this guy says this, and then they get visceral, they get mad and angry because their paradigms challenge. Or into the youth point, they didn't actually sit and experience and listen to it. They got it from someone else. I think this is also the problem. You don't read their Bibles. They let someone else read it for them, and then they take that person's information. Or they bring the emotional baggage into it already. They know exactly how the flood happened. Then they read it.

And they cherry pick the verses. So they think the world is flat. Then they read the Bible. It's saying it's flat and they don't read the parts because every other guest blows, blows holes and a lot of these narratives.

“And just as host you, how do you have to make room? Like I said, and you have to.”

Then you got someone like Nick Adem, this says, you know what Jesus said is really shocks me?

Yeah. I'm going to try to talk to him and see what else he's got to say. And you know, so a very different response. That's a response I'm hoping to get in the book. Yes, they're going to be shocked by what the book says was like, you know, I'm really need to look at this. I really need to study this. Can I clarify one thing though? Like I don't want to ask you something.

I think you've said this, but just to people listening is that you argue there's a real historical flood that happened. It was that we can we can't find it in an ice age event, but this flood was supernaturally.

The causation was supernaturally.

God caused this to happen. We're not just, we're not you're not cherry picking or in the sense of, okay, specific ice age events saying this has to be it because this happened.

“I think the people talk about the same thing when they postulate on the younger dryest, even though you believe the dating is different.”

They just say like, well, God allowed this happen and the causation is here and here. That's the only example I have, but you're saying that. God said there was going to be a flood and he told no to tell people what's happened and to build a boat. And we can find the scientific evidence based upon human migration patterns and based upon sedimentary or geological evidence that there is this that we believe this period's a number of events could have been. The actual no way it flood and there we've got evidence for it, right? Is that am I surmising that pretty well?

Yeah, you are. And you know, one of the things I told our staff, please hold the press run. There's a paper just came up. We got to get in in the book because one of the big push backs I get is the ancients couldn't build boats at big. While what happened was a paper got published where they said, we have found evidence that the ancients were making these really long thick ropes in the southern islands of Indonesia 40,000 years ago. The paper said is the only reason why they'd be making ropes like that is they were using them to be able to steer large ships.

“So that's how people got from the islands of Indonesia to Australia 40 to 50,000 years ago.”

They could see because the sea levels were lower so they could actually see Australia. But there was still quite a bit of sea water they had to get across and they needed to build a big boat. So I mean, they were building big wooden boats that had to be steered. And we were saying about Noah Zark, it didn't have to be steered. Didn't have sales, didn't need a rudder, it just was built for survival.

And we built big wooden boats during the sailing era of the 19th century and none of them were bigger than 300 feet. Well, they did build one 400 feet long, they Wyoming was 400 feet. But they discovered, yes, we can cross the Atlantic if we have no cargo. But if we fill it up with thousands of tons of cargo, we have to reinforce the wood with steel bars. So people said, no way Noah could have built a boat out of wood for 50 feet long.

Interesting thing, a Bible addresses 21 different kinds of hardwood. And yet it says the mark was built at a go for wood. It's the only place in the Bible where it isn't really identified what the wood was. But the fact that it didn't identify 21 other specific kinds of hardwood tells us the wood that was used to make Noah Zark had a stronger tensile strength than the 21 mentioned elsewhere. One mentioned elsewhere in Scripture, which means, hey, if it was that strong, you can easily build a wooden ship 450 feet long.

It's not out of the technological capability of Noah and his sons to build something like that. Well, I mean, our listeners are already there. Like, Luke and I went downtown Kusko and looked at what they built that stone.

And it's like looking in architecture like socks I want, and you see these giant stones that are fit together like puzzle pieces, you know, like they knew how to build stuff long time ago that we don't even know how to build today.

And there's evidence that the pyramid was underwater too.

Well, one summer that just two summers ago, I took my wife to Scotland and as an astronomer, I wanted to see all the stone observatories. We visited six different sites in Scotland alone. They weren't quite as built up as Stonehenge, but they were way older than Stonehenge, showing that people 10,000 years ago were building is sophisticated stone observatories because they didn't have telescopes that we have today. They were building these stone structures and using them as gun sites where the astronomer would stand back several miles away and use the stone structures to accurately measure the positions of the moon, the planets and stars.

Those are their telescopes. And we now know the ancients built over 5,000 minimum of these stone observatories all over the world. And you're right, they would haul the stones from a quarry 200 kilometers away along the road where they would use logs to roll these stones, where they dug holes and use other tools to actually put the stones exactly where they wanted them. Yeah.

So the astronomers could stand back and use those stones to make accurate position measurements.

You know, when you're, when you're in Scotland, it makes me proud. You can see how the base is a technology they don't understand. And then when humans come along again, they build, they try to emulate it. And it's getting worse. It's not getting better.

The base of, you know, Machu Picchu, Soxaiwama, and then they kind of have this rude, crude way of doing the stone work in order.

“Later, so earlier they had some sort of knowledge. I think they ripped off heaven personally, like they got this, this information from entities.”

Well, you might not like reading rescuing an currency then because I got a chapter that they're making the point.

Ancient peoples didn't need any help from outer space or from angels. Yeah. They had everything they needed to build these structures. Well, we overlook is how motivated they were to make these structures. So, for example, we now know that there was a thousand year period in ancient Egypt. Where the astronomers were given about 25% of the gross national product.

You know, much we astronomers get from the US government money. We get way less than 0.025%. Sure.

“So they're both keeping you through them. I think they'll fund it.”

They can easily build these structures, especially when the king said, "Hey, you need a hundred thousand slaves. No problem. I'll give you a hundred thousand slaves." But I think both can be true of you because if you're less for knowledge, so great, you're going to go any extent you can to get it. Which means you'll do any kind of divine, you know, a cultic magic to get information. Well, they were certainly doing that because astrology was right for me to an Egypt as well.

But what you notice is that the people who were going the occult route, they were not doing the accomplishments of people who avoided the occult route. Well, sure. I think God is the best source of light, truth, knowledge, and love. And I think that we've seen that a thousand times. I'm just saying, if you have these dynasties that are all evil, then they're like, it's like a whole country of australies.

They're going to do whatever they want to do, and I think that's when the judgment comes when they're mad. And there is nothing good about this whole region of people, and the evil is inventing evil. You know, it's like AI going, like what we're going to see in our lifetime with dark magic and all kinds of stuff.

“So I'm just saying that like you have to make room for these, you have to make more room.”

You can't have a rigid black and white thinking when you do this kind of work, because there's so many things that present themselves. Well, you guys might like the book I just finished writing. It's in being edited right now. What's I was going to ask you about, because like you know, what's 25? Oh, I've been asked to write a book on ET, ETI, and UAPs. Yeah, so the book is finished, but it's now being edited.

But again, the point comes up, okay, can these aliens traverse interstellar space? What's going on with UAPs? And I run into a lot of skeptics to say, hey, you Christians are nuts to think that they're angels. Well, and we talk about the evidence, the really are two distinct species of intelligent life.

And so we see violations of the laws of physics.

“We shouldn't immediately say, this is out of bounds.”

I mean, I had Carl Sagan as briefly as a professor. And that was his position was, hey, these UFOs that has to be something that's naturally explained. Because we know there's no such thing as non-physical reality. Well, that's his worldview. My worldview is able to accommodate non-physical reality.

And now we've got space-time theorems, which basically lead that on the scientific table.

He's space-time theorems prove that the cause of the universe has to be an agent or agent seeing outside a space in time. So it tells us things not physical reality and not all UFOs. All UFOs fall into that category, but about 10% do. They don't have a physical explanation, they don't have a human connection, but they're real. But when you look at the physics that they demonstrate, it violates the laws of physics.

Yeah, the sick attack, this stuff they can do, even on the Nimitz video, is like, we don't have anything you can do any of that. No, nor could you, could you have a pilot, they'd be turned applesauce or lower-last because of the Gs it's pulling, which is wild stuff to try to like, okay, what's something here is not, this isn't a black military project because no human can be in there. Nothing alive can be in there, no human can be in there. We can't build an aircraft that can withstand those G-forces.

Right, exactly. So it's got to be something non-physical. Some say vomit steal that flew down. Let's take this steal. Do you kick the flatterth?

Bees nest, you kick the alien's bees nest, you kick the young earth bees nest, you kick the local flood or the global flood. The global flood bees nest. You just love hunting those. Yeah. Bees nest across the, I think--

I think--

“I think my one last question for you on Noah's Flood.”

We talked at the beginning of the episode about why you chose and thought it was so important to revisit. But if you wanted folks to take maybe one, if they're to read your book, would we talked about the importance of reading the volume of-- And the hypothesis and the information.

What do things the most important?

Would be the most important thing you'd want people to take from revisiting Noah's Flood. Well, we talked about how there's flood stories and flood legends all over the world. Yeah. But when you compare them with the Bible, none of them have scientific credibility. The reason I wrote the book is to say, hey, we can read the Genesis Flood text, literally historically, and it's scientifically credible.

You don't have to choose between the science and the Bible. God gave us two books, the book of nature, the book of scripture. I bring both them to bear on the flood and hey. We can defend the entire Bible as being an errand and inspired. Because people say, well, you're claiming the Bible as an errand.

How do you fit the flood in? We can do it. We can pull it off. I love it.

“So just for my last thought is visually, that's kind of how my brain works.”

There could be evidence of a global flood in that the world was covered with water. Initially. Day three, you mean? Yeah, before day three. Yeah.

And then the second flood.

So to speak, the Noah's flood could be like an understanding. Do you believe it rained before, Noah? I didn't. Yes. Okay.

It has to because the two words used for rain in Genesis, head and guitar. The only difference is one is tiny drops of water. Okay. One is larger drops of water. You get rainbows with both.

Okay. The only thing that's sky. Kind of a mist like a greenhouse. Yeah. I grew up in coastal British Columbia.

Yeah. If the rain drops were less than an eighth of an inch across, we call it a mist. Okay. But we can understand maybe Noah's flood is if like like an ancient lake town. Just does.

And then all of a sudden the lake fills up and it covers this whole region. Like we understand that water can stay in one location based on like a big lake. Notice this says 40 days and 40 nights of torrential rain people say, hey, couldn't the birds have just flown away. Again, I grew up in coastal British Columbia when the rain is torrential. The birds are not flying.

Yeah. They can't. They'll lose body heat and they die. Yeah. And so the birds look for shelter.

What the rain coming down that intensely, but the underground aquifers coming up. They're not able to escape the water. And then it's just two torrential. So they're all trying to hide on the but she's about a bunch of the sort of swarm in the arc trying to get in. And then the last thing you said there's that's rattle around on my brain is that there's species of animals in this person parts of the world.

That wouldn't have been able to get on the arc that had to have survived somehow. Plants to other plants that that how did those.

I think we got the hot pepper mix.

Like seed bearing plants, I could get how those could come back. Like a seed just comes back and goes down and gets dried out or gets wet again and grows. But there's got to be some species that can't come back from a flood. Yeah. And animals too.

What's the problem with a global flood interpretation? Now how the global flood people deal with it? They say, well, all life landlifed came from the life of a zombie board. No a zark. Yeah.

And so, but now you've got the problem, okay, no a zark. Even if they weren't eating and they're all hibernating, you can only house a few thousand pairs. And you're claiming these millions of species of life came from a few thousand pairs and a few hundred years. They have to appeal to a rate of naturalistic evolution that's 10,000 times greater than what any atheist biologists has ever proposed. Now, what's interesting, they say, oh, we're not believing in biological evolution.

We're believing in biological diversification. Wow, as a scientist, I can tell you, there's no difference between the two terms. Hmm. It's the same. But if you have the flood simply taking the animals associated with humans.

Yeah. And see, God's goal was that when Noah came off the ark, they could rapidly re-civilize.

“So he said, you need to take on board all these pairs of animals.”

No, to some he said, take seven pairs.

The ones where he said seven, those were the most important for launching civilization.

Hmm. They also had them take on board equipment, stores, food. So, I argue that probably a maximum number of pairs of animals onboard the ark was about 300. Those would be the animals that were in close contact, all of the delicious animals too. Yeah.

All the good ones that eat. And the friendly ones. Yeah. I don't always just left snakes out and just let them go. Well, I mean, I say the flood covered several million square miles.

You will get recolonization of the plants and animals, but it's going to take time. God said to Noah, look, I don't want you to have to wait centuries. Take on board everything you need to relaunch civilization. So, notice he was planting a vineyard right away. So, he had the seeds on board the earth.

He's like, I've got to make some vino transplant as vineyard. I like how you present it on. I appreciate like you having the conversation. And I know that you run into a lot of hostility, anger, frustration. Nothing that we don't either.

Well, you know, it really drives me. But I can get the skeptic pass. These few chapters in Genesis. I can get them through the rest of the Bible and get them into relationship with Jesus Christ. It's nothing.

And that's the goal. I love about this. The end goal is to reach people with Christ. Right. At the end of the day, it's whether it's your secular scientific community that you are a part of,

or whether it's Bible believing Christians that you just want to say, hey, all of this is here. And it makes sense.

And while it's important, it ultimately leads to Jesus.

“Well, so often when I talk to unbelievers, I say, okay, what is the biblical text that's holding you back?”

And I can't tell you often they cite the Genesis flood text. Yeah. So it's like, if I can get them past that barrier, I think I can get them all away. I love it. And I appreciate like what you said about the book of nature and the book of scripture.

I think you encapsulated that in like a minute. Something I've been pondering and wrestling some of my whole life of growing up is some of different Christian communities. You know, just seeing the level of disagreements that these groups, I mean, just going to Christian schools a kid. Every kid in schools from a different denomination. And we're arguing about theological stuff in sixth seventh grade.

What excites me about you? I can tell you're enjoying this. Yeah. I spoke on this in a church just a week ago, making the point. Please don't leave it up to us scientists to study the book of nature.

It's way too much fun. Yeah. And likewise, don't leave it up to your pastor to study the book of scripture. Yeah. It's way too much fun.

God wants all of us to be scientists. He wants all of us to be theologians. Yeah. I mean, don't have to go through a whole system of religious acts to get to God. I think that's the beauty that we go through.

Jesus to get to God and we all are. We all have access to the truth.

“But the truth is something that we can manipulate and twist.”

But you're saying, like, no, it's there. It's just we have to go through a long process to actually see what it's saying. And thanks to you, thanks for coming on the show. This is the book. Get out there and just rattle your paradigm and get mad.

But it's a good thing to get frustrated and try to figure out what's going on in the world.

It's been my pleasure. You guys are great. Thank you.

See you. All right. We're trying.

We're not very smart, but we have fun.

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