Technical Difficulties on Death Row (w. Corinna Barrett Lain)

Hey, it's Alec Baldwin.

“This season on my podcast, here's the thing I talked to composer Mark Shaman.”

It's about the hang. It's the pleasure of hanging out with the people that you're with.

You know, Robin Eye was always a great hang.

And journalist Chris Wippel. Every White House staffer, they work in a bubble called the West Wing. And it's exponentially more so in the Trump White House. Listen to the new season of here's the thing on the eye-heart radio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Danielle Robe, host of Bookmark to the podcast by Reese's Book Club. And this week on Bookmark, we're basically hosting the ultimate girls night. Reese Witherspoon, Jennifer Garner, Judy Greer, Rita Wilson and Gary Rice and author Laura Dave. These are the women behind season two of the Apple TV series The Last Thing He Cold Me.

We're talking about turning a book into a hit show. And what it really takes to bring a story to life. The most important metric for me is do I want to share this book with somebody? That's what creates community. And that's the main thesis of our book club.

And why we started it was just to connect people together. Listen to the bookmark by Reese's Book Club podcast on the iHeart Radio app. Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. When you feel uncomfortable, what do you put on it? Biggie.

You put on biggie when you feel uncomfortable? So I want to get confident.

This is DJ Hester Prince music is therapy.

“A new podcast from me, a DJ and licensed therapist.”

12 months, 12 areas of your life. Money, love, career, confidence. This isn't just a podcast. It's unconventional therapy for your entire year. Listen to DJ Hester Prince music is therapy.

On the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. [Music] Welcome to Brief Recess. I'm Michael Foot. I'm Melissa Malbrant.

Today we're going to be talking about how beautiful Bollywood is all the booties and heated rivalry. How kids are exhausting. Our candid thoughts on transracialism. An interview with Carina Barrett Lane on Capitol Punishment.

And we're going to respond to your comments and tales from the DMs. So stick around. Why was I Southern? I'm Paula Dean. Welcome back. I just don't know.

[Music] I'm calling a police officer. Officer. You can pull off that best. I think so.

I love it. I agree. You described it as.

“I feel like this makes me look like somebody who supports NPR.”

Yes. You've got your toes. And like I also support the met. [Laughing] Your name's Rosemary.

You're from the Upper West Side. No. No. Just you as yourself. It's no, yeah.

It's definitely me as myself. And I feel like my husband and I just flew in from the coast. The eye of the coast. [Laughing] I like that.

Did you get this fast? I love it. It was a. It was a raffle. [Laughing]

You know what raffle? NPR. No. It was at the end of the year raffle. Oh, okay.

Yep. I know what you're talking about. Yeah. And I wanted it. I love it.

Show everyone the best. I'm going to describe it for the people listening in their cars flying down the way. It's a tie designer. It's beautiful.

It's got these little tassels. It's got a great one time I had like a it was clearly affiliated with an ethnicity sweater that I was looking at online. And I sent it to you. And what did I say?

And I said, can I pull this off? And what did I say to you? And I already knew the answer because you did this to me too. Or you'll send me a vintage for and you'll be like, can I get this and I'm like.

Enough.

Okay enough with the first.

But we are each other's gut chats. Yes. Yes. And what you're checking? Yeah.

Can I? Can I not? And you said, I don't know what culture it is. But I know that culture doesn't belong to you. I'm like that.

You said exactly what I was thinking. What you were thinking? Which is that you know what? I that was the hesitation within me. And I couldn't really articulate it.

Right. But you could. And I think that's beautiful. You know what I love. I just think is so beautiful.

Yeah. But I feel like that, right? Like I can't wear that. Someone brought me back. Like one of those fully like neon影 shirts from India.

Uh-huh. And I was like, I don't know about walking down in the west village wearing this. I don't know how I feel about that. Yeah. But thank you for the gift.

Beautiful. But it's like it's one of those things. Like I wonder if it's better for me to admire it on someone else.

Because I don't.

“I really don't want to be like a culture culture, right?”

I don't want to appropriate. Yeah. But I love to look at, um, use the things that you had that happen to. When you sort of scroll my list on internet. But like every now and then I'll fall upon like a Bollywood.

Um, like an opening of something. Like a Bollywood Ward show. And beautiful. And they're just these women are like beautiful. And they're like the golden bangling things on the veil.

It's really cool. It's so pretty. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, I wish that I could. And then immediately I'm like, you can't.

And that's okay. You can't. That's okay. You can appreciate from afar. I can appreciate it from afar.

Yeah.

The makeup is always correct.

Oh, snap. Always. Always. Always. Be the mug.

Down. Always. Yeah. Keep the face. I love it.

We need to send our makeup artists to India to learn their ways. Because sometimes I like we've had makeup artists on sets before, where let's just say, painting Melissa's face and then a middle aged bald headed super pale. Do you think you're middle-aged? And 37 is not middle-aged.

Can we get it? Can we get it? I don't know. I'm almost 54. I don't know.

I feel like, okay. Are we both middle-aged? We can't be. We can't. I am too much older than you.

The middle of what age?

“I mean, the other thing though, I would have to live to be at least”

100 and something for me to be middle-aged. But my grandmother. That's true. Your grandmother lived really well. My grandmother lived a long time.

But I mean, she lived a long time. But I wonder if we're doing a based off age of grandparents. My grandparents died in their like 40s, 50s and 60s. So like, yeah, I'm a older care now. This is, this is hospice for me.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, if we're doing a based off of that, make sure. Okay.

I feel like 40s is middle-aged. That's assuming that you are going to. I mean, I feel like middle-aged we're thinking about living until middle-aged is a state of mind. Okay.

I think. Okay. Do you feel middle-aged? It's some days when I wake up in my hips. When I step out of bed in both hips, crack.

Dang bang. Well, after shooter in my bedroom. I feel middle-aged when I come across like the Grammys or the MTV award number. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

I'm the same way. You always that person. They're like, "Chick a bang bang's going to be doing her opening number." And like, "Who is this?"

Who is that? And they bring out a 17 year old in a pair of heels. Who's "Chick a bang banging?" No. By the way, speaking of bang, I'm sorry.

You know what I finally watched? What? He did violent. He did violent? I said, speaking of my back to blown out

and bed and I can't stand up. Let's talk about the gay sex show. He did rival league.

So, here's what I feel like.

Overall, overall, it was really good. Okay. Oh, you've got a critique. Be careful. This is no, no, no, no, no.

I can hear it here. So, my, so, my friend's Andrew Sattas and is obsessed with this show. Okay. And she was like, "You got to watch it.

You got to watch it. You got to watch it." Tell him to read a text. Because I'm deep in the matrix on here to write. Okay.

You're doing like scripture versus TV. I'm doing like, that is not, they're not staying true to the text. Scott is actually a verse top. And we show him, he doesn't even bother once in the show.

Right. What does the Old Testament say? Like, we have to read this for a back there. We've read the books. Yes.

All of them. Yes. Okay. Legal scholar. Sure.

You've hired like the actual law professor on your rival league. So, it's a few things.

So, first of all, I lately, I've been,

doing audio books more than actually reading books. I like that because you can go for a while. Correct. You can do laundry, you could do whatever. The problem with audible or any kind of audio book is that if the actor or the reader is not good,

then ruins the experience. Yeah. And I started to listen to it. And I could not with that voice. You have to get like an actual actor.

Sometimes Claire Danes narrated the handmaid's tail. Yes, I read that. Yes. And no. Not the handmaid's tail.

The testament. Did she also do the handmaid's tail?

“I think she did because I didn't listen to the testament.”

He didn't. Okay. I listened to the testament. According to the TikTok comments on a video I saw. She did it.

So I think that's pretty good. She did. She did. She did. She did.

She did. She did. She did. She did. She did.

She did the testament. And what was cool about the testament was that it is several actors. Okay. Reading so.

Lydia was. And out. Yeah. And I can't remember who else was in it. But Claire Danes wasn't it.

It was so good. I don't know anything about And out. But there is this Twitter account called. I think it's like hot and out.

Because there's some sort of And out.

Like parody it down. It's so good. I love it. It's so much. So here's my feeling about.

He did rivalry. Okay. Really good. I enjoyed it thoroughly. I think what ends up happening.

No, no, no. Hear me out. When other people have told you. You have to watch this show. You guys that the best show.

Oh, yeah. So you go in it with these. Yeah. Very high expectations. Yes.

“And I feel like it would have been better for me.”

Had I gone in blind. Yeah. Having said that. That is some good shit.

And the guy who plays Ilya.

Oh, Connor story. Yes. It is the nicest ass. I love this because this is exactly what the internet was saying for weeks ago. Sure.

I'm slow to it. I'm slow to it. I'm slow to it. But I'm sure to it. Like it is.

And you know, the other thing is that at certain points I'm watching this show. And I am feeling very sad, right? Yeah. I'm feeling so sad that there are still so many people who feel obligated to not be your authentic self, which makes me so sad because I also feel like when you are not yourself.

And now you don't really show up in the world the way that you want to. And I also think that that constant level of frustration is also what can make you an asshole. Yes. Right. Because you are just constantly not able to be yourself.

“The number of deal guys that I hooked up with in college hanging out of”

frapped building windows climbing down the gutter is unbelievable. They're all DL. They're all hiding how the gay they are. They're all in the wrestling team because they just want to touch it. But it is actually it's so real.

Yeah. So not to say that all wrestlers are gay balls. But I a lot of especially people in sports. Yeah. Are a lot of people are super sports fans.

Yeah. Like sometimes like the dads that love football. Sometimes I'm like you're a little bit too invested in that man and spandex. I'm sorry. Not all.

Not all. Not all. But some. And at least one. Yeah.

One of the one out of five football deaths. It might be gay. Secretly gay. I overfilled this waterway too much. Do you do it all the time?

Every single week we come to the studio immediately. What happens? I spill my water in the green room. Yep. I know we come in here and I spill the water.

It's a dry set. And I'm looking forward to. They're doing another installment, right? Yeah.

“I mean, I think like I wonder if they're going to sort of bridge your tenet.”

Oh. Yes. I think they are actually. Yeah. Because there are a lot of actors on that show that got like two minutes of screen time.

And they really did make it with like paper paper and like hot glue guns and bubble gum wrappers. Yeah. Because I was watching a thing and it was the wardrobe person was explaining how she pulled together the wardrobe and the story she told with all the outfits. The dress that rose wears at the club, it's like a shimmering dress that she wears.

It's a piece of fabric held together with like paper literally safety pin to this poor actress's body. Yeah. Because the budget was like $10. They made this with nothing. Totally stupid thing.

But a million years ago there was a girl group called The Gokos, right?

Okay. And when they were, they, I think it was like either their first or their second album. And they had no money. No money for any, no money for makeup, no money for clothing. And the, the album art is all of them in a towel.

Each of them are wearing a towel and they're all wearing face masks. Because they had no money for makeup. They had no money for budget. And I remember watching like a VH1 behind the story. Yeah.

Where the, the person, their producer, whoever it was was just like, I have to return those to Macy's, do not get any other face cream on it. So I mean, yeah. I returned stuff all the time. Same.

I love a good return. Yeah. I got really mad at me because on Saturday a huge box arrived at the house. From. I got a pair of boots for Christmas.

Mm-hmm. And I remember the, the boot story. Yeah. And I didn't, just like I couldn't figure out what to return them for. Yeah.

The way I exchanged them for a huge oversized dog bed from this company. They had like big, fluffy dog beds for the dog. Does Jack need that? No. He doesn't need anything.

He was raised in the aisle. But I know, but doesn't Jack sleep with you every night. Yeah.

Okay. He has not put one little crusty toenail on that fucking bed. No. Yeah. And doesn't plan to.

No. He walks right past it and gets in bed with us. Yeah. Or he just sleeps on the floor. Yeah.

Same. Arthur Weasley.

“I think he's in the bed that I bought him.”

Although.

Oh, but I'll never have a mattress right.

Electric blanket, which he likes. Arthur Weasley has an electric blanket. I will not be judged by the lack of you. Arthur Weasley has an electric blanket. And.

And. When he wants me to turn it on, he goes and he stands over. And he looks at me. And he meows. And because I am his bitch.

I go over quickly and I turn it on. Not him training you. He just kind of like looks at me like. His like. Time is money, baby.

You've got a new appointment to turn the sucker on. It takes a minute to heat up. Totally other things. So I feel like people who are. On the verge of having kids are going to enjoy this story, right?

Oh my god. I'm so. So remember you. We were texting and I was like, I'm exhausted. You watched your nephew.

I also my brother and sister in law went away for about five days. Yeah. And they were like, can you and Andre watch the baby? Of course. Yeah.

No problem. Let me tell you something. I am no longer the same person. And he is actually an exceptionally good. I'm sure.

Yeah. He's super cute. But like, so speaking of like training me, he now. So he's like nine months old. And he now has realized that there's a camera in his.

In his bed. And he was now turning around and looking at us. He's just a monologues. And he's just like tiktok tiktok mother. We've come get me.

He knows that when he looks at the camera. Some of them come in soon thereafter. He's looking. He was really smart. Love it so much.

But like, and I'm still figuring out the doorbell. Yeah. No. Amari.

“Love of my life is looking directly into the camera.”

And he's just like, let's stop playing these games. Um, had the best book. He is like 19 and a half pound. Thanksgiving turkey ran me into the ground. Did I send you the picture of Andre passed out?

No. No. I'm going to send it to send it to me. I want to see it. Because he was like an Andre.

Like, had a kid and rated it. Yeah. Yeah. I feel that way when I even just like hanging out with my friends. Kids for a couple hours.

Yeah. And they're there. Yeah. But it was a good time, but I feel like I was saying this to all my friends and family who my heart goes out to anyone with a child.

Pat's off, man. God. That is the last. And the constant blowout. Yeah.

Yo. That's for me. Actually, you know what? I went to my friend's house. And she has three kids.

Okay. Love. They're so fun. How to blast. Yeah.

And she said to me, she was like, yeah. My husband was was like, I just love how Michael and Brad. Show up to our house. We have dinner. We hang out.

And then they just like kind of let us know an hour before they come over. That they're coming. And we're just going to have them. They'll join us for dinner. They live like not too far from us.

Yeah. Yeah. And then we hang out. We do a puzzle. We have dinner.

We order to take out.

They always bring like a fuck.

We always stop at Billy's bakery and bring dessert. And then they just like leave. Yeah. And she was like, yeah. She was like, yeah.

They don't have kids. They can do that. Yeah. They can just like get in a tab and come up town. Yeah.

And hang out with us for a couple hours. Yeah. And then leave.

“And it's the best, it's the best thing in the world.”

Yeah. It's so, it's so much fun. It's so much fun. Yeah. But she was like, yeah, honey.

They don't have kids. They can do that. That is sweet sweet freedom. A child free life. Yeah.

I know. Highly recommend it. Anyone thinking about having kids. I mean, think about that shit hard. Good.

It's forever. Okay. But BTS for a brief release has someone in our studio. I can't say who is expecting a child. It's hard.

It's hard. It's hard. It's hard. It's hard. So this whole segment as well.

Yeah. I told them I was just like, we're going to talk about something that I think that you Especially are going to fall. I didn't even piece that together. I did.

He was like, okay. But I'm going to, we're going to put it in the, in the YouTube but out of the picture of Andre. But I stand by my statements. Andre passed the fuck out. Oh, I'm falling asleep just thinking about it.

You know what? Let's take a break. I got to take a sip out of this. I don't want to stop. I'm a fool.

Hi. I'm Danielle Robe, host of bookmarked the podcast by Reese's book club.

And this week on bookmarked, we're basically hosting the ultimate girls night.

Reese with her spoon, Jennifer Garner, Judy Greer, Rita Wilson, and Gary Rice and author Laura Dave. These are the women behind season two of the Apple TV series The Last Thing He Cold Me. We're talking about turning a book into a hit show.

The most important metric for me is do I want to share this book with somebody.

That's what creates community.

“And that's the main thesis of our book club and why we started it was just to connect people together.”

Listen to the bookmarked by Reese's book club podcast on the iHeart Radio app. Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. [music] A silver 40 caliber handgun was recovered at the scene. From iHeart podcasts and best case studios.

This is Worshack, Murder at City Hall. Could this have happened in City Hall? Somebody tell me that! July 2003, Councilman James E. Davis arrives at New York City Hall with a guest. Both men are carrying concealed weapons.

And in less than 30 minutes, both of them will be dead. [music] And have everybody in the chambers docked a shocking public murder. A scream get down, get down, those are shots, those are shots, get down. A charismatic politician.

You know, he just bent the rules all the time. I still have a weapon. And I could shoot you. And an outsider with a secret.

“He alleged he was a victim of flat down.”

That may have been not a bit political, that may have been about six. Listen to Worshack, Murder at City Hall, starting on March 25th on the iHeart Radio app. Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Ever feel like you're being chased by the marriage police. [music]

Welcome to Boys & Girls, the podcast by dating isn't dating.

A ranged marriage is basically a reality show.

Except the contestants are strangers and your entire family is judging. You're sitting coffee with one maybe, grabbing dinner with another, and praying your carmy can or Barbie appears before your shelf life runs out. Trust me, I've been through this ancient and unshakable tradition. I jumped in hoping to find love the right way, and instead I found chaos, cringe, and comedy.

And now I'm looking for healing. Boys & Girls dives into every twist and turn of the arranged marriage carousel. The meat awkward, the neomisses, the heartbreak, and let's not forget all the jokes. [music] Listen to Boys & Girls on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is her algorithm, showing the list of what is happening in your feet this week. What's the tea? What's the shade? So I've been trying really hard to disengage from the plastic surgery stuff, because it's been like... It's like fucking, it's like starting to fuck with me for real, right? [laughter]

But I've gone to another place.

[laughter] I've gone to an even darker place. So, are you familiar with this notion of people being transracial, meaning that you... You're like Chinese and black? No, no, no, no.

No, let's just say, for example. I guess I shouldn't just start wildly guessing. [laughter] I do think that the term "transracial" can be confusing, because sometimes when... Let's say, oh, my family adopts a Chinese baby.

They call that a "transracial" adoption. But that's not what I'm talking about. What are you talking about? I'm talking about people who, let's say...

“Do you remember that story about that woman, that white woman, Rachel Dozal?”

Yes. Rachel Dozal. "Transracial" is a racial, Rachel Dozal? Well, people like that, right? Who feel inside that they're...

You're like inside that they were born one race, like Rachel Dozal? I cannot get... Am I about to be cancelled for saying I can't get behind this at all? So here's... Here's the thing, right?

So I don't know where I fell into this, but I saw it like really like doing a deep dive, and then there's like... This black woman for laughing at this. There's a black woman who's doing the same thing. I forget her name, Donna, something or another, who was born...

African-American woman, or at least a black woman, who has now gone through all the stages. She's bleached her skin, bleached her hair, she's got blue contact lenses, and is living her life as a white woman. Right.

Now, uh-oh. Here is my question, right? Why? I've been asking myself this question. Why does this not sit well with me?

Right. And I really can't pinpoint it because... If I were to find out that somebody is a trans person... I know, I was just thinking like...

Live your truth, be who you're supposed to be.

“I know, it's like an identity politics so correct.”

Because it's like, if we are saying that people who believe inside that they're born into the wrong thing... Right. It's actually the same sort of... Correct. Logic, kind of...

But I was, again, so falling into... I can feel the trans people typing. Yeah. In the comments. And, and, you know, and I want to be both understanding and respectful.

Yeah. Like these are like siblings in my community. I'm like, I feel very confused. But, and also conflicted by it, right? Because I definitely feel like...

Trans people are who they say they are. Right. End of story, frankly. Right. I feel like 30 years ago, people were having the same conversation about trans people.

Like, for me, like, my gut reaction of, like, Rachel Dolores, all of a sudden. Right. Why? And that's pretty to me.

And I'm asking myself, right?

Why does that make me feel uncomfortable? Right. And I don't have an answer. And, and this is not meant to be disrespectful or dismissive of anybody of any community. But, like, it leaves me feeling, like, conflicted.

Yeah. Like, I'm just kind of like... Right. Yeah. Yeah.

It is actually like a... Gordian knot. Like, okay. So what is bothering me about this? Right.

For me, I'm like, this is the same thing about your best. It's like a white person appropriating a fucking culture. Right. Dolores all did to her political career. What?

“Like, that is a white person trying to take another culture, right?”

It's the same with me sending you the sweater and being like, I want to wear the sweater. It's a different thing. But the difference between you sending me a photo of the sweater and the same thing of me looking at an admiring sorry, right? It's like, we're looking at this... And also understanding that like, people are not clothing options, right?

Yeah. We understand that, right? Thank you. But we're... Looking at these items and we're just like asking ourselves, right?

Right. Is it okay if I wear this or no, right? Because again, you want to be respectful. I don't... This is this feels different.

I guess I feel like Rachel Dolores is like the wrong on-tray into this conversation because like the notion that someone feels like they're born another person period and then wants to like live that authentic life. Whether you're trans or transracial, transgender or transracial. I guess it's like those... those are the same sort of conversation, right? To say this, right? I can't find a way that we would discuss it differently.

Right. Nor can I. But... Which means then therefore, I must... I guess I have to support this, right?

So, I don't know. I guess I'm just... Do I just... Do I just... I guess I need to learn more.

Is like where I'm turned right. And again, I've been... I've been googling. Yeah. I've been like really looking into this.

And I guess this is literally like day one.

I've literally never heard of this except for Rachel Dolores.

All who is a punchline. Like... Right. And so maybe that is like... But you know what though I will say?

I mean, again, I... There were a couple of things that there were so many... There were many, many things about her that... That upset me and bothered me personally. That was one story that she told.

She was talking about her hair transition, right? And she was talking about her kitchen. Now, for why people who don't know what that is, your kitchen is the back part of your hair. And that's usually where the texture of your hair is the corset.

Usually, not always, but usually. And for this white woman who was born with straight hair, to be standing in a front, and standing in front of other people of color, talking about the difficulty of working through that...

Wait, Sharon. Wait, wait, wait. She's white, pretending to be black. Rachel Dolores? Oh, my God. Sorry. I thought we were talking about this person on TikTok.

No, no, no, no. Which is right. Oh, no, no.

“And I remember when I was transitioning my hair,”

the hard time that my family gave me, and how I felt like... And she was doing that. And I felt like, who are you? To talk about...

To talk about this thing, because it didn't happen to you. Right? It did not happen to you, and you are... That's culture vulture, right? Yeah.

Um... Do you see what I'm saying? I guess the deviation in my mind is like, okay. So we've got... And I'm going to like,

try and break this down as like an analytical attorney. Sure. So we've got the transgender conversation, right? Which is like anyone who wants to shift their gender identity on wherever on the spectrum.

Yes. Live your truth. Correct. I run into issue with...

Yes.

“Is white becoming black, or white becoming anything else?”

Okay.

That is where I'm like a little bit held up because I've been conditioned to say

that is cultural appropriation or like black face, right? That's someone pretending to be another race, right? Okay. Right? I don't know.

I don't know. But, or just like an extreme version of... Right. And I mean, but there's this other woman, whose name I can't remember right now,

who it like I said, this black woman, who is now living her life as a white woman. Yeah. And I have so many feelings. I'm just going to say,

I don't really know if I have anything to say about that. Mm-hmm. But like, I'm sure you do. I mean, I just have feelings about it. Yeah.

Like, what... Did something happen? Right. Was there a message that you heard that makes you hate yourself? But if somebody were to talk to me about a trans person,

I would never think... I don't know. So that's why I'm a little hung up on. Correct. So okay.

So like putting my message out there to the world, I want to think about this. Mm-hmm. I think I need to learn more. Because I don't think I...

This is my literally emphining out about this live on the air. Yeah. Yeah.

This is the first I've ever heard of this,

except for Rachel Dolls Allwood. I highly judge and condemn what she does. Sure, sure. Because she just pretended to be black to get ahead in life. Right.

Did she? Did she? Is that what she did? I think. I mean, sure that was like how I read it.

But does that? But does she think that's what she did? Because it seems to me that the other thing about her was that she was... She had stopped speaking to her wife family altogether.

And if you were to look at the work that she did, she... She either worked for, or did something with the NABLACP. She did good work for them.

She's a president of the NABLACP. For a chapter. One of the chapters. Yeah. So, and she has black children.

Yeah.

“I think she had children with an actual black man.”

And... Loves the culture according to her. Yeah. Right. I don't...

Do you see... Do you see the children I have in? Yeah. But if we do that, then like hilarious Baldwin is also... Correct.

We have to be like... We love that she... It is pretending she can't pronounce cucumber. Well, okay. But that I think...

You know, when she was like, "How you say?" Like, she did that shit. Yeah. Yeah. That I feel like is...

Is different. But why do I feel like it's different? But in her life, I think in her mind she's like living her life as a Spanish person. Correct.

And Massachusetts. Uh-huh. We are living in such strange... and I don't... and again... I'm excited. I'm excited.

I'm excited. And I'm genuinely... Not making fun of anybody. No, I'm... I am...

I'm interested to learn more. I'm trying to understand... Yeah. And also trying to understand myself.

“I know, because you and I have had these conversations where it's like...”

You're a very proud black-ation woman. For a show. And... [laughs] And we've talked a lot about like...

The way black women treat their hair wet. Your hair journeys... And... Yeah, but that's different. Yeah, but that's different.

And like how wrapped up in that whole sort of... like sushi roll of emotions... Uh-huh. Is sometimes like self-loving and internalized racism. So... again, I think that... The trouble that I've been having is...

Why does this not sit well with me? And I don't understand why that is.

I guess just like, again, still hearing this first time.

Mm-hmm. Maybe it's that... We've just really been conditioned to think about it this way. Of like... If you... at least for me, like a white liberal in a big city...

Mm-hmm. I've been conditioned that when I hear... Person pretending to be other race. We... inhale. We get nervous.

Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. Someone... Someone putting that on is...

Ooh. We're not supposed to be called that. Right. And I'm not saying... I still think we are not supposed to be called with that.

But it sounds like... Maybe this is like a special version. I don't know, Michael. I don't know. I mean, I think...

Because I do see a lot of connections to... The transgender conversation. I mean, how do we separate the twins? But I've been... But I've been...

But again, because I've been doing like this... Yeah. This... Yeah. I've on it.

I've seen where... Transgendered people are like, don't compare that. Interesting. Okay. But...

But again, but I... But I think for, you know... As many trans people as there are... There are different trans people who feel differently about their own journey. Yeah.

Right. Right. And again, I'm going to believe the person that I'm talking to. I'm going to believe what the people are saying about themselves.

I don't know. I...

“I'm going to watch like a lot of breakdowns of this on TikTok.”

Uh-huh.

I will say that I am deeply disappointed in you.

Why? For not sending it to me sooner. Because I want to want... You know... No.

I love staying up until 4 in the morning. I know. Deep, just... Doom scrolling. Going down crazy rabbit holes.

I want to see that shit. I'm watching... Meanwhile, I'm watching your hair removal videos at the Turkish Barber Shop. I want to see that. And I was going to be watching this in really learning and growing as a person.

How fucking dare you? I'm sorry. You know, okay, well, this... Here's the silly thing that I've been watching that. I've also fallen into pedicure TikTok.

Oh, I don't want to see someone getting... Miss... Little Miss Piggy Miss roast beef worked on. Yeah. I don't want to see that.

Same as the identity politics. I want to get worked up into a lather. I know. But, but seriously, it's been like... I...

Like, completely, very conflicted. Well, this is what... But, like, I want to... I want to get into, like... That.

And, like, learn about it. Because it really is a culture. It sounds like... Or someone's experience that I'm not sharing about learning about. Nope.

I want to be on the forefront of that. I want to know. Because my whole feet... I mean, my mind gets, like, really Jim Scrolling. With, like, the news and the headlines.

Like, I am... I've... Notice, especially since the... I see tax manyapolis that... I've become a part of the conversation where I'm commenting on it.

I'm also a part of the echo chamber for a little bit. And my whole sort of algorithm has become... Very much... ultra liberal anti-ice. Yeah.

I mean, fake. But this is, like, this weird thing that I fell into. No, I got it. I also have like... Yeah, yeah.

Burkin bags and Dubai. And then it's unboxing of Burkin Buds. But now, the Dubai Burkin Bag girlies are... Literally in fuckin' bunkers. Yes.

It's getting bomb. Yeah, I know. Isn't that crazy? It is. I was watching last night.

And it was the Burkin Bag girl. She came up and she was in... A bunker with all her purses. She took her purses with her? Stop it.

Stop it. No, she didn't. I mean, I'm not even... Unless the purses... Is in the...

The purses are in the bunker at all times. I will... I can either confirm or deny that she cared them down there. I have to... I did not see her...

Log all the purses down there. But... Yeah. Here's where we are in modern warfare. Okay.

That bothers me. [laughter] There's so many things like that. I can go on the record about this. Yeah.

I can say that. The world around you is coming to an end.

And your first course of action is saved the bags.

[laughter] I've been in near misses before where I'm like... Like you get in a car accident. Or I was on a train once where there was like...

“I honestly don't even know what happened.”

Like a trans... Trans... A transistor. Like exploded or something. And there was like smoke and a fire.

Like there was a big explosion on a train. Uh-huh. And... I was with my college boyfriend and I ran. And I left...

You left them. I left them so fucking... [laughter] I don't know. A little fuck or something.

I'm so sorry. I ran for him. What? Oh god. Jerry Seinfeld.

Where? There's like a fire in George. And George is at a birthday party. And he pushes the kids out of the way. [laughter]

What is his name himself? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's guys so bad. And we got in a fight about it after you just... You're just left.

You guys left me. [laughter] We broke up soon, right? I was gonna say we get out of the house. You didn't last.

Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm really excited. I want to get into some of these headlines. Okay. But our guest is here.

Okay. And we've got an interesting conversation today. I'm looking if I can talk to him. Yeah. Should I tease him a little bit?

You could do it afterwards. Okay. You don't have to whisper there. [laughter] You could do it later.

You could do it later. You could do it later. into her fucking mic. "What'd be right back?" "Hi, I'm Danielle Rubei, host of Bookmark to the podcast by Reese's Book Club.

And this week on Bookmark, we're basically hosting the Ultimate Girls Night."

Reese with her spoon, Jennifer Garner, Judy Greer, Rita Wilson, and Gary Rice and author Laura Dave. These are the women behind season two of the Apple TV series The Last Thing He Cold Me. Talking about turning a book into a hit show, and what it really takes to bring a story

to life.

“The most important metric, for me, is do I want to share this book with somebody?”

That's what creates community, and that's the main thesis of our Book Club and why we started it. It was just to connect people together. Listen to the bookmark by Reese's Book Club podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

A silver 40 caliber handgun was recovered at the scene.

This is Worshack, Murder at City Hall.

"How could this have happened in City Hall? Somebody tell me that." July 2003, Councilman James E. Davis arrives at New York City Hall with a guest. Both men are carrying concealed weapons. In less than 30 minutes, both of them will be dead.

Everybody in the chambers docked a shocking public murder. A scream, get down, get down, those are shots, those are shots, get down. A charismatic politician, you know, he just bent the rules all the time. I still have a weapon, and I could shoot you. Listen to Worshack, Murder at City Hall, starting on March 25th on the iHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

“Ever feel like you're being chased by the marriage police?”

Welcome to Boys & Girls, the podcast by dating isn't dating.

A ranged marriage is basically a reality show, except the contestants, our strangers,

and your entire family is judging. You're sitting coffee with one maybe, grabbing dinner with another, and praying your garment can or Barbie appears before your shelf life runs out. Trust me, I've been through this ancient and unshakable tradition. I jumped in hoping to find love the right way, and instead I found chaos, cringe and comedy.

And now I'm looking for healing. Boys & Girls dives into every twist and turn of the arranged marriage carousel, the meat awkward, the neomisses, the heartbreak, and let's not forget all the jokes. Listen to Boys & Girls on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

So welcome back to brief recess, I'm Michael Fob, we're going to be talking today about lethal injection today. We have, I've just a lighthearted conversation. Easy, easy.

We're here with Karina Barrett Lane, she's a professor of law at the University of Richmond

State Law, and she's one of the nation's leading authorities on the death penalty. She's a former sergeant in the U.S. military, and the author of the book, Secrets of the Killing State, the untold story of lethal injection. Please welcome Karina Lane. Thank you.

I'm so happy to be here. And you just finished a book tour, right? A crazy book tour. I did. That was about that.

Oh, my goodness. It was the adventure of a lifetime. So my sister and I shout out to Mandy. We went in her van, hashtag vanlife, and she drove every mile of this, and it was 13,000 miles.

Wow. We did 57 events in just under 80 days. Wow. And how is the relationship at the end of the, of the, I feel like these are important questions to ask.

I have a little, I have a younger brother. Okay. Well, you know, it was fantastic, but I do have to say it, the very, very end. We ended the tour in Oklahoma City, and I had three events in Oklahoma City, and she's driving me to one of the events, and she said, you know, I didn't think we were going

to make it. I didn't think we were going to have done that. I was like, what do you mean? You didn't think we were going to make it like, what did, what did you think was going to happen?

And she said, I don't really know, but I didn't think I'd be driving you at the end. I thought you were just going to drop me off the other side, or something abandoned you. But it was great. Good. Yeah.

And people, I, you know, after that experience, I just feel like there's such a goodness in the world. Yeah.

“I think I was pretty nervous, because, you know, two women in a van driving around”

the deep south saying, let's not kill people. Yeah. Like, what could go wrong? Right. Right.

Yeah. But people were really kind and open-minded. And I found that so many people, they just, they didn't know. And almost every single one of those events turned into a larger conversation about the death penalty.

And I welcome that here. Yeah. Well, I was just going to say, like, you're such a friendly warm bubbly infectious person to pick such like an intense topic. I think when we were talking about having you on the show, I think you and I get similarly

sort of categorized of like dealing with really crazy subject matter and still like being somewhat of an optimistic person.

“I think it's like a really unique, strange persona to have in the world.”

And I just am just so curious what led you to this topic.

Because people asked me all the time, like, how'd you get into immigration law?

Yeah. Like, was that for you? From an immigrant family? And I just want to hear, like, I'm sure it was an A to B. I'm sure it was mercury.

It was not. And I have to say, kudos to you because, you know, everything you say about me is really applies to you 10 times because you're seeing people, like, you're seeing actual people, right? Like, you're, you're a frontline provider, whereas I'm a researcher.

Now, there is a story behind that, that I think it would be even harder to see, you know, cruelty and brutality, yeah, see their face. So we can, yeah, we can, um, A, I wouldn't have it any other way. B, I'm like, who would I be if I didn't do something? Like, if I have the skills I have, and I'm able to help who would I be, and see, I'm like,

oh, yes, it's awful to be around this. But I can actually do something, and I have, like, the tools to do it. So it's kind of like, I've chosen a space where I actually have a lot of agency, which is unusual, I think, a lot of people who are service providers, they can help in, like, one small way.

But I'm like, oh, there's actual relief here that I can seek. And the other avenue for someone who is combative, angry, allowed mouth, I get in a lot of fights. My desk at school was in the hallway, I've got an older sister, we fought, like, hats and dogs.

The other pathway for me, aside from the courtroom, what is the problem? What's probably the jailhouse, or the drunk guy at the bar starting fights. So, like, it's like, oh, I actually, like, make it like a pretty productive path for that.

“But yeah, that's how I sort of categorize it in my mind, but I'm still also like, yeah,”

sorry, we don't have to talk about me. We brought you a joke about you, but it's so good. Well, I will tell you, I am a former prosecutor and I'm a legal historian.

And so, what brought me to the death penalty in the first instance is I was doing, I did

to legal history pieces on the death penalty. And those were more about, you know, the conditions under which the Supreme Court protects unpopular minorities. Right. Just from about sort of, you know, high school civics where it's like, you know, the Supreme

Court is this protector of unpopular minorities from overreaching tyrannical majorities. And we laugh at that now. But at the time, it was like, you know, it's not true, it's not true. I'd very much just how we came up. No one's even saying it.

Yes. Um. I mean, they're not. I mean, they're not. Even when I was in law school, it was like, oh, the Supreme Court, like, it's loosely

tied to politics and who's empower in the presidency. And maybe they sometimes wait to retire until there's the favorable president in their political party. No.

“I mean, it would, it would be flying in the face of what we're looking at, right?”

And what we were looking at every day. Right. That's right. Yeah.

Well, I, when I was doing the second death penalty piece, I came across this case in Texas.

It's the real case. It's from 2000. You might have heard of it. The birding case. And in that particular case, the lawyer fell asleep during trial.

It was the Capitol trial. And I was so shocked because the lawyer didn't say, like, I wasn't asleep. I was resting my eyes or it was like really concentrating the lawyer said, yeah, I fell asleep. Yeah. It was during trial.

But it wasn't an important part. Yeah. Oh. And I remember being like pretty sure it's all an important part of the matter, but especially when your life is at stake.

And then, you know, what the court said, so there's a little line. I still have my students read it where the court said, the constitution says you're entitled to an attorney. It doesn't say they have to be awake. Right.

Wow. And that was this moment where I just thought, you know, good people on both sides of the aisle would look at that and say, I thought, read just. Right. Like can't be killing people if you have sleeping lawyers and drunk lawyers and prosecutors

hiding evidence. And so that was the moment when I said, I need to look at this closer. And so I've been researching and writing about the death penalty for 18 years now. Wow. And so that's like the death penalty more generally.

Yeah. And then as for this book, I didn't really so much as choose it as it chose me.

“But I had a research question because that's what we do.”

And my question was, why are states so breathtakingly bad at execution? Yeah. Like, why am I seeing three hour long execution rates and two hour long execution rates? And you've been to executions? No.

Okay. I have not. I've not been asked.

But, you know, I'm tracking it. We draw.

“I try not to deal in hypotheticals, but what would you do?”

I've thought about this a lot. I've thought about it a lot. I don't know because I have to tell you just researching this and hearing the media stories and now I know members of the media and I know capital defenders. And so I hear their stories.

And I feel like I'm stretched as a researcher. Yeah. No, your boundaries. No, your balance. No.

I'm an empath and knowing what I know just seeing it, even if it looked peaceful, I have

to tell you the second drug is a paralytic.

And it's not just a paralytic. It's a muscle relaxent. So relaxes the muscles in your face. And then the appearances on that way. Yeah.

Right. So anyway, I had this question of, you know, I'm seeing autopsies with 18 puncture wounds and people waking up in the midst of their own execution. And I just thought, you know, I don't understand we know how to put down our beloved pets.

I know it's very clinical. Yes. But I'm a researcher. Yeah. And it was like, let's really get into this.

No, how physician assisted suicide works. So why are they so bad at this? Yeah. Like, there's the whole death penalty thing. And we could talk about that.

Sure. And there's the torture people. This is not what bad it is. Right. Yes.

“What has been this sort of response to that question in your research?”

Like, I mean, don't give away the part of the book. But like, what? Wow. Have you sort of found, like, was there any discoveries that you made in your research? Oh, my goodness.

What? What is the public sort of? Reach, Ben? - Yeah, so I mean, the answer ended up as a book. - Yeah, I know. - I know, yeah.

- I know. - Yeah. - And it spans anywhere from, I thought there was science behind this thing. - Yeah. - I really did. I thought, truly, someone didn't just make this up

off the top of their head. Someone literally made this up off the top of their head. That actually happened. - The specific way, the means of which we execute people. - Yeah.

- So, Leithlon Jection came to be in 1977, and actually, just to contextualize it, it was really no accident that it happened in '77 because the Supreme Court struck down the death penalty in '72, brought it back in '76.

And by 1977, the country had not seen an execution in 10 years. - Oh wow. - So you had Gary Gilmore, just do it. That's firing squad, and everyone was like, freak down.

And legislators around the country said, we need to do something else. The country hasn't seen an execution. They're gonna be super squeamish about. - Right, right.

- So that electric chair, gasping people,

and a federal court had found a first amendment

to televised executions at the time. - Now, it wouldn't last, but nobody could have known that. And so you had legislators talking about where we can't have an electrician in someone's living room. - Yes, no.

- Right, and so it was this big push of, okay, well, what about death by drugs? And that would look nicer, thinking of the pets. And in Oklahoma, the legislators are asking their doctors,

their personal doctors, the state, medical association, no, but he wanted to play. And so they turned to the state medical examiner, the coroner, this guy named, yeah, this guy named Jay Chapman, he was a doctor.

But he referred to himself as an expert in dead bodies, but not in how to get them that way. - Oh, good. - Yeah, no, this is just like one of those things, okay, so like, this is one of those things

where it is just kind of like an absolute cluster fuck. And then it creates legal precedent. And then we still have it today because no one can get rid of it. - It's such a cluster.

- Oh my God. - And so they said when you call, but he said, sure, and he literally just made it up. - Yeah. - And I found an interview of him later

“and they said, well, how did you come up with the three drugs?”

Because not a single one of them is what we use for pets. I encourage you to even get that. And he literally said, I didn't do my research. Oh, okay, you said I just thought about what might be useful and that's the protocol

that we use for the first 35 years of lethal injection.

- And are we still using that today? - Yes, the first drug isn't made anymore. That was sodium theopental. And the states have replaced that first drug with even worse drugs.

So some states are using the three drug protocols. Some states are using a one drug protocol. - So let me ask you this, right? - Yes. - So if we, and again, understanding that people

and animals are not the same, right? But if we do know how to put down a catada dog, or a horse, whatever. And I've been in the room when I've had to put down a pet

They just sort of like drift off to sleep.

And it's over pretty quickly. - Yes.

“- Why are we not using those same methods”

to execute people? - It's a great question. So some states are still using a three drug protocol. That is how strong the allure of a paralytic is. Something that like, it's a get out of jail free card, right?

Whatever's going on underneath there, it's gonna look peaceful. So some states are like, love that, not leave that. - Yeah. - Some states, though.

I have turned to the one drug pentobarbital, which is what we use on pets. That's also what we use for physician assisted suicide. And so one might say, okay, then why is everything wrong? And part of the reason for that is that it's actually

not the same drugs.

So drug manufacturers have put contractual agreements

and tracking mechanisms on their drugs. They don't want their drugs. - Binders. - For us. - The PR on that.

- Oh, it's so bad. It's so bad.

“I always think of Pfizer, whose motto is life is our life's work.”

- Right. - Right. - Yeah. - Right. And all of the others too.

But, and so what's happened is the states have to go to these compounding pharmacies, and they're getting a compounded version of the drug. Well, these are little mom and pop shops. And compounding a sterile injectable.

They are not set up for that at all.

In fact, compounding sterile injectables

is literally called high risk compounding. That's the industry term for it, because it's a mess. And so you've got that whole issue. And we haven't even really talked about what compounding pharmacies are willing to do this.

And it's all for cash under the table. - Yeah. - And then also, here's another one. Like in the animal youth and age of context, you're using veterinarians that are trained.

Do you know who is pushing the drugs? - I was gonna say, I can't imagine a medical provider. - You're taking a himocratic oath. - Correct, right.

“- Is going to be issuing these, is it like the warden?”

Is it? - No, it can be. - That left, like who is this? - It's an officer. - Non-medical prison guards.

- Yeah, I was gonna say. - And they're not doing, like they're doing it from another room from this little anti-chamber through seven feet of tubing. So in the animal youth and age of context, it's bedside, correct, right?

- Yeah. - You can watch. - Yes. Here it's not, it's through seven feet of tubing. And if you ask them, which they have been asked, how do you know how fast the plunger?

Because if you push it too fast, you're gonna blow the vein, all of these bad things happen. And they say, we do it by field. - Yeah.

- In the medical press. - They don't know, yeah. - There is no field, right? - Right, right. - Right, right.

- But we see these headlines all the time. This state couldn't fulfill an execution because they were unable to source the drug. Or they ran out of the drug, or no one could make it. Like we see those headlines all the time.

And I know that your book really focuses on the ways in which states are moving away from capital punishment, right? That there is a decline in jurors and judges who are convicting.

- And you feel like people don't have the appetite for it. - That it's maybe less. So there's a recent headline about Luigi Manjoni trial just this week, where he is no longer. The judge has ruled that he is not going to qualify

for a capital punishment. I just think it's an interesting time where the ways in which the means and which the execution is being provided, I guess, done. Performed is contact it.

- At odds with sort of where we came from, where this started. Right, and the modern day appetite for it. I know as like you said a provider in the judiciary, how wrong we are, how many flaws there are

in a criminal trial, in a judgment, in a ruling, in that appeal, in the lawyer, in whatever, how many opportunities there are for error. And that's with people's lives at stake. And in a capital punishment trial,

where there are charges where someone could be charged with a couple of punishment. That is literally what is being litigated on that day. So what do we do? We're all at odds with this subject, right?

I mean, and then we're also thinking about justice for the victims of whoever this person committed a crime, right? Like, it really isn't ethical ball of wax.

put this all together, like, have you just personally,

and you wouldn't even have to talk about your book. But like you as a person, yeah. Driver on the country with your sister, talking about this light. - So awesome.

- Hearing from these many communities in the South that still perform executions, like, what do we fucking do with this? I just like left with more questions and answers sometimes. - You've packed a lot in there.

- I'm sorry, I'm just like so good. - They're just like breaking my brain, but like, let's just like talk about the lights. - Yeah, let's talk about it.

“So I think one thing that one piece of information”

that people don't really understand is this error rate and actual innocence. And that's something that we can all get behind. As in, we shouldn't be executing innocent people.

I don't really know if any actually Scalia once said,

this is a cost of doing business. - Oh yeah. - So, yeah. - But most people would say that's absolutely unacceptable. And so, one of the things to think about

is that we've executed slightly more than 1600 people in the modern era since 1976, slightly over 1600, 16 and maybe 1640, something like that. And in that period of time, we've had slightly more than 200 exonerations.

- I was gonna say all was the exoneration rate. - So, and so, when you think about that picture for every eight people that we killed. And, you know, I call it secrets of the killing state because we are killing and the autopsy actually

says homicide, because of death. - Wow. - Does it? - It sure does, okay, killing.

“We just like to use these nice, pretty words.”

- Okay. - But, you know, for every eight people we kill, there's one person that the state says, oh, sorry, we got that way wrong. - Yeah.

- You know, that is an incredible statistic.

Eight to one. - Wow. - And the National Academy of Sciences came out and was looking at death row and all of the errors and they did the super fancy regression analysis

that was, you know, peer reviewed at the highest levels. And they said a conservative estimate is 4% of the people on death row right now are factually innocent. That's one in every 25, you know.

And part of the problem, of course, is that they're all saying it's me, right? And so like this is a difficult problem, but just knowing that. And then the other piece which goes into the victims,

side that you were talking about is aside from actual innocence. There's this error rate and the error rate, nationally is between 50 and 70% of all death sentences are overturned on appeal.

- And DN is 70% of like, oh my gosh, seven out of 10. - That's crazy. - But even the lower is 50%. - Right. - And the top two reasons are grossly ineffective

assistance of counsel and prosecutorial misconduct. - Wow. - And so the-- - And so the rate of violations of the lawsuit. - Wow.

- And so, you know, those are, again,

“those are things that I think, you know, good people”

on both sides of the aisle would say, well, we can't believe it. - This doesn't make sense. - Right, we can't be doing that. - And the thing is, it takes a long time

to find those errors because those sides, you know, are off-record errors. - Yes. - But you're not gonna find those in the transcript. You have to look behind.

- I also think a lot of people are out of sight out of mind. - Right. - Absolutely. So that's-- - People who are on death row or out of sight out of mind, they are incarcerated

and from the perspective of the state legislator. That's someone who murdered someone and is a bad person and therefore, it's not worthy of my time attention energy. - Right.

So, tell us what the Brady, what is it the Brady? - Brady violation, yeah, let's talk about Brady violation. - Yes, yes. - So Brady violation is when a prosecutor hides or doesn't disclose evidence that is favorable

to the defense and material. As in, there's a reasonable probability that it would have made a difference. So this is not, again, this is not misplaced paper clips, this is stuff that--

- Right, it's not like-- - It's not like-- - Detail about the victim's hair color. - No. - It's like serious exonerating evidence

that prosecutors have intentionally withheld. - Absolutely, right, you know. And we had one of these cases it went up to the Supreme Court this year. Well, last year, 2025.

So, this guy was Richard Glossop.

'cause he had a lethal injection challenge.

“But bottom line is he was convicted of capital murder.”

He was never the killer. - Mm-hmm.

- It was always this co-dependent named Sneed.

And it was a terrible, I mean, all murders are terrible. But, you know, this was a bloodgening to death of a hotel manager. - Okay. - But Sneed did it, the commonwealth never said,

anybody but Sneed did it, they never said Glossop did it. But Sneed said Glossop paid me to do it. - Okay. - So the prosecution goes to Glossop and says, we'll give you life without parole.

If you'll testify against him, we'll go for death for him. Glossop says, "I had nothing to do with this." - Yeah, I mean, I said, yeah. - So I'm not taking that. Then they go to Sneed and say,

we'll give you life without parole. If you'll testify against Glossop, Sneed says, you got it, Glossop goes to trial. He gets convicted, he gets sentenced to death.

First trial gets overturned in effect of assistance of counsel.

He's been maintaining his innocence.

“And, you know, he would have been executed”

after the Supreme Court Greenlighted, you know, the lethal injection protocol, except Oklahoma injected the wrong drug into the guy before him. And then they tried to cover that up.

And so, can you believe this? Michael, the warden, the director, the people from the AG's office, they get called before a grand jury. They get investigated.

- Right? - This is-- - That is my judge for Rob. That would never happen. - Yeah. - It's crazy town that you have the people

from the warden being-- - Yeah. - Wow. - So he's just waiting. Meanwhile, he's like, I'm innocent, I'm innocent.

Finally, some people hire a law firm. - Mm-hmm. - Find a way. - To say, like, can you please look into this? - Yeah.

- Yeah. - It's itself, you know, we're going, well, that's what a court should do. - Yeah. - But, okay. - But, okay, fine.

“They do an investigation and they come out and say,”

there's no way, like, there's serious serious problems with this, also the prosecutor buried evidence. So when this comes out, the state, I don't know reluctantly, hands over seven boxes

of material that shows they solicited perjury. There's emails saying, you know, there's some problems with this testimony. We need to get to him before he tells us about it.

- Well, these are like serious crimes. - Yeah, these are, this isn't like a lie. - Oh, I did my job wrong and I'll tell you about it. - These are whatever, yeah. - These are prosecutors facing jail time for these crimes.

- Yeah, and, you know, when all of this comes out, the attorney general of the state of Oklahoma confesses error, constitutional error before the Oklahoma court of criminal appeals. And the court of criminal appeals says,

sorry, you missed the deadline, hey, BS, procedural default, there's nothing we can do. - Oh my God. - Goes up to the Supreme Court. - And they love doing that, by the way.

- They love that. - They love that. - They love just hitting with, like, they love that. - Oh, the deadline, sorry. - It's, you know what, they don't even think, look, discuss the subject of the case.

- No. - Oh, they look at the first sheet, deadlines passed, you're out of here. - And he's actually innocent. - Yeah. Oh, yeah. - Can we, sorry, can we just explain to everybody what habeas is? - Oh, yeah.

- Yes. So, there's trials. And there's the direct appeals that you have. And then after that, there's a system of habeas corpus. There's a state habeas, there's federal habeas,

but the bottom line is, at that point,

it's essentially a civil suit, okay. That you are suing the warden for wrongfully holding you. - Okay. - But it's just a way to-- - This is something that's actually interesting come up recently in the Bond Proceedings and Immigration Court,

because under certain laws through the Trump administration and through a few federal decisions, basically many migrants are being held without Bond or parole options for extended periods of time. So, and these are the headlines you see out

of Dillian, Dilly, Texas, Children, Protests, Children. And so, it's the same habeas claims are being invoked by these migrants and their attorneys in federal court, habeas corpus claims for people who are not being afforded Bond opportunities

as migrants held in detention. Because you're supposed to get a Dane Court, you're supposed to go in front of a judge, say, "Hey, I'm here on a sign-lum. I should be released on Bond,

but the new Trump administration laws are still getting worked out through the court system and as a sort of band-aid to that, lawyers are now submitting habeas claims." So that's sort of how it's hit in my world.

- Okay. - So, let me ask you this.

Why should we care about this? Because I can imagine that there are people who are saying for the folks who are guilty, who have committed some heinous crime. And there is a family who is missing a loved one

or a several loved ones. Who cares? - Yeah. - Right. - I mean, - Such a fair question. - Who cares because, you know, when they were murdering my,

whatever they didn't care about that, why should I care about that person and what their death looks like? - Yeah. - I mean, that's such a fair question. And I have to say it's a former prosecutor.

“- Yeah, I was gonna ask. - I think about”

the victims, family members, all the time. I think about them all the time. And interestingly, I met a number of people on this book tour who were surviving family members of same victims.

And one of the things that they said, and then I need to answer your question, but one of the things that they said was, you know, we're told this is gonna give us closure. - Mm-hmm. - And it's actually the opposite of closure.

- I can see that. - We're waiting 20, 30 years. Mississippi executed a guy this summer on death row for 50 years. - Yeah. - You know? - Yeah. - And they've been strong along this whole time. So, but to your question,

you know, one thing I would say is,

people always talk about, well, they deserved it.

They deserved it, so why do I care? And I think it's important to remember that, you know, one question is whether the person deserves death. That's only one half of the equation.

- Okay. - The other half of the equation is, did the state do what it needs to do? - Right. - To take that, to deserve, to take that life. - Yes. - Right, like you can't just grab people. - Yes.

- Right, right, right, right. - You deserve it. It's like there are things that the state has to do. And so, really, this book is about that question. - Okay. - And I was think, you know, the untold story of lethal injection is really a story

about all of the ways that the state cannot be trusted to take life. And all of the ways they have covered it up. - Yes. - But, you know, there's a whole other question, and this is slightly different

“that I think in there of like, why should we care”

how they die? - Yeah. - Right. - Because they don't have much to do. Like, why should we care how they die? - Yeah. - Right, because they might have tortured someone.

- Yeah. - And to that, I always think,

you know, well, why don't we rape rapists? - Right. - And I'm not saying, like, why don't we let? - No, no, no, no, no. - No, but I kept thinking when you were talking, and I for an eye, is that, is it? And like, I am posing that question.

Like, I have like a very unique opinion on this of, I see all the errors that happen in court. So for me, I'm like, if there's even a 1% chance, that's still too much. That is my opinion. But I think it's like a conversation

people needs to have with themselves, right? Because when you were talking about like, family members coming to your book tour and being like, I didn't get the closure. I thought I wanted. My first thought was like, you know,

and I'm a narcissist. So like, we're always like, this is what I would, this is how I would think about it. And it's like, hey, would that be the closure that I want or need? But also like, who does that make me, right?

Who do I want to be? - Right? - Is it, would it? And I'm putting myself in someone else's shoes,

and I've never been in the situation before,

but I'm like, if I were this hawk who wanted an execution for a loved one who was murdered, would that be the closure I want? What does that say about me? And is there a story of forgiveness here?

Like, I can't put myself in these shoes. And like, when you were talking about your book, I was like, the one word I kept thinking about was accountability.

“And of the state, how do we hold the state accountable?”

And that's a lot of what I do as a defense attorney is like, what are the time I know my client did it? And all the evidence says that. My job is to stand there and just make sure the constitutional rights aren't violated.

And that the state is doing what they're supposed to do. And we're going to, we'll go down swinging, but you're going down usually. - Right? - If it's a foregone conclusion, it's over. I'm there to make sure your eighth amendment violation,

your fifth amendment, your fourth amendment, first, second. Like, that is my gig. It's not about what you see on TV. Me pulling a rabbit out of a hat, getting this person off with a loophole, and they're running down the street

It's about accountability.

“- Yeah. - And I think people don't understand that, right?”

Police accountability, prosecutorial, and now state, when it comes to least lethal injection. So that is my sort of explosive rant about this. - No, but I think it's so important to recognize, too, that family, surviving family members,

they're going to, it's, I think it's totally understandable and natural to say, I want this person, like I want to do it myself. So torture, no, yes. That's why we don't have family members prosecuting people. That's why we have what we call independent prosecutors.

Because what you want, it's not wrong. It's just not necessarily what's good for society. Right. But, you know, to your question, Melissa, of, like, what if they did torture?

And I go back to, well, why don't we rape rapists? Why don't we burn down arsonous homes? Because they don't deserve it. And some talianic, I for an eye way. It's because we're a civilized society.

And we, we actually, we could get even with them. If we did that, but we can't stoop that low. Right. They're the bad guys. Right.

So by definition, they can't be the standard for how a civilized society

should treat the worst rights members. And it doesn't undo the thing that happened. Right. If the end of the day, unfortunately, whether this person is put to death or not, your loved one is gone.

Yeah. At the end of the day, your house has been burnt down. Right. Like, and doing those things doesn't undo what the, the, the, the heinous act that happened to your family, to your friends, to your family.

“And again, to your point, I think it may be trying to remove yourself a little bit.”

And look at what it says about society at large. Yeah. I think so. So do you want to plug your book really quick? You can get anywhere you get books straight to camera.

This is your camera right here. Let's, here we'll give you a copy. Okay. Thank you. Give a quick plug of the book to your fans waiting outside.

You have to go. This is the book. You should read it.

I think every person should know what the state is doing in their name.

Yeah. I think that's true. It's funny. It's your money. It's, it's your text dollars.

And, you know, it's not just about torturous executions and made up science. It's also about smuggling drugs across the border. Yes. I'm taking $15,000 in cash, putting it in a suitcase. Okay.

I told you don't use my name. But, you know, some of this stuff. I mean, it's criminal. Yeah.

“And I'll be, I'll be a quote for the next book.”

Okay. Sounds good. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for coming. This is a great conversation.

Yeah. Thank you. We'll be right back with tells from the DMs. Welcome back to Brief Recess. This is tells from the DMs.

We're going to talk about all the crazy filthy, nasty wild wicked. So what do you think you send us? You're free to my DM. You are very excited about that. I know when I get the little view photo message from someone on Instagram.

Can I really go? I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, my mouth is watering. Yeah. I love a good, delicious comment. We've gotten crazy.

We've got some awesome comments on our podcast. I thought it would be fun. Every episode we're going to read a comment from Apple or Spotify. Or YouTube on tells from the DMs. We're going to start adding that in.

So add your comments to the show review the show. And Melissa's going to read the, I'm going to go for it. Give us a good one. I have not heard any of these. So from the millennial failure.

Love that. This is what the millennial failure says. Your honor. This podcast is critically underwatch on YouTube. These are highly intelligent, hilarious, engaging, and incredibly attractive host.

If you're not watching, you're missing out. Whoa. Thank you. The millennial. So why am I honest, Ben?

Incredibly attractive. I didn't need it to just be like a compliment fast, but I'll take it. Oh, well, what? I'll take it. But every time.

From. From. From. We do another one. From.

From. Episode. One. 12. Don Lemon.

Slash. Epstein. From. At. Karen.

27. 30. Karen says. I also had a known teacher. Sex.

[LAUGHTER] Wait. This is a good one. This is a good one. [LAUGHTER]

Everyone. Talk about action park. Do you remember that episode? Of course. That was the one.

People were coming up to me in the club. Drink in the hand. I was at action park. This comment. The comment is from Disabled Danny 96.

Shout out to Disabled Danny 96, who comments on everything on love. Get in my actual day. He says. Everyone that designed the slides were on cocaine. It was the 80.

It was the 80. Good power. Okay, CJ role the clip we've got the tell from the DM. We got a question. Someone called it with a question for us. Just a quick question. Like what advice would you give to somebody who's interested? Like very basically interested in an immigration law, but doesn't necessarily have the time to commit to pursuing a full degree. I seem to be stuck in a place that wants to do more. I get this question a lot about how non lawyers can get them off. They want to go to law school. They don't have time.

My answer is always find the nonprofit in your area that's doing this work because the nonprofits really are the backbone.

“This person, I did a little research. I think they're from the Bay Area.”

And I found a few nonprofits that I know there. Immigration Institute of the Bay Area is a great one. They're service providers. So what is LaRaza? And that is a San Francisco mission district legacy organization. So wherever you are, even if you're not in the Bay Area, there's usually a nearby nonprofit doing that work. And you know your skill set better than I do. So if you're really good at communications or you're really good at social media or you're really good at writing. Talk to the nonprofit. Maybe there's a job there. Maybe there's volunteer hours there.

Where you can get involved and do that work with your specific skill set. I say it all the time. So many people support my work. And just for me to get to the courtroom. Someone had to be the translator. Someone is the stenographer. Someone is the researcher. Like there's so many people behind me and the work. And then I get all the credit. And we're going to put the links to the nonprofits that Michael mentioned in our show notes that you have access to.

I give this to CJ right now. And everybody like I always say, while Michael is a lawyer, he's not your lawyer.

That's why you hire me. You said that really in a really gross way. Unless you were, oh, I said I did say like a lady at the night. Why is it a lady of the night? You hire me. It could be a person of the night. That's true. I've been of the night. Thank you for watching Brief Recess. I'm Michael Foot. I am Melissa Melbourne. I'll see you in court. Not me. I'll see you in the streets. Probably.

King and a car. This has been an exactly right production recorded that I heart studios posted by me, Michael Foot. And me, Melissa Melbourne's, our producer is CJ Ferroni. This episode was edited by Nicholas Gullucci. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain and our guest booker is Patrick Cotner. Our theme song was composed by Tom Briefogel with artwork from Charlotte Delereo and Manessa Leilac with photography by Brad Obono. Brief Recess is executive produced by Karen Kilgera, Georgia Hardstock and Danielle Cramer.

You can find me on Instagram at department of redundancy department or on TikTok at Michael Foot. And I'm on both Instagram and TikTok as Melissa Melbourne. Got legal questions. Reach out at Brief Recess at exactly right media.com. Listen to Brief Recess on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And of course, we're a podcast with video search for Brief Recess on YouTube.

“Hey, it's Alec Baldwin. This season on my podcast, here's the thing I talked to composer Mark Shaman.”

It's about the hang. It's the pleasure of hanging out with the people that you're with.

You know, Robin I was always a great hang and journalist Chris Whipple.

Every White House staffer, they work in a bubble called the Westway and it's exponentially more so in the Trump White House. Listen to the new season of here's the thing on the iHeart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Danielle Robe, host of Bookmark to the podcast by Reese's Book Club. And this week on Bookmark, we're basically hosting the ultimate girls night. This with her spoon, Jennifer Garner, Judy Greer, Rita Wilson, and Gary Rice and author Laura Dave.

These are the women behind season two of the Apple TV series The Last Thing He Cold Me. We're talking about turning a book into a hit show and what it really takes to bring a story to life. The most important metric for me is do I want to share this book with somebody?

“That's what creates community and that's the main thesis of our book club and why we started it was just to connect people together.”

Listen to the bookmark by Reese's Book Club podcast on the iHeart Radio app. Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. When you feel uncomfortable, what do you put on? Biggie. You put on biggie when you feel uncomfortable?

So I want to get confident. This is DJ Hester Prince, music is therapy.

12 months, 12 areas of your life.

Money, love, career, confidence.

This isn't just a podcast.

“It's unconventional therapy for your entire year.”

Listen to DJ Hester Prince, music is therapy.

On the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.