Kerry Washington: Power, Perfection & Olivia Pope

This episode includes discussions of eating disorders and suicidal ideation. If you or someone you love needs support, we have included resources in the show notes. Please take care while you are listening to this week's episode. Love you, guys. What is up, Daddy Gang?

It is your founding father, Alex Cooper. We call her Daddy. Carrie Washington, welcome to Caller Daddy. Thank you. I give you a mirror. No, like, okay. I need to take a second to just fan girlfriend to second. Oh my god.

I, this is a full circle moment for me because growing up in Pennsylvania. Yes. My mom and I would bond. Scandal, obsessing over Olivia Pope. I love that.

But you really brought this woman to life who was so powerful and bold and brilliant and unapologetic.

In a way that I felt like I hadn't seen on television before. And it was such a bonding experience for my mother and I because she was like, "You can be like that and you can do those things." Okay, I'm gonna cry already. We're like, "Two seconds in because, so I feel like I know your mom because of your documentary."

“And I think your parents are such a powerful example of what real loving parenting looks like.”

The way that they give you permission to be you and then, like, stood by you through your hardest. I mean, I learned so much about being a mom watching your documentary. So I love that you guys bonded watching the show. Carrie is gonna watch this and be like out home screaming. Like, Brian, did you hear Carrie watch her just say, "My name?" They really, they really gave you,

they have given you permission that you have then, like, taken on. I mean, you are your own beast. I don't want to take anything away from you. But without them, like, I couldn't have achieved what I have achieved. And so, to, yes, have a mother that was watching with me being, like, look at this woman, look what she is embodying and what she's doing to now sit across from you.

It's very surreal for me. So thank you for taking time out of your day to join me on this show. This is an honor. Getting right into it, though, because speaking of her being so bold and obviously, you are also in your own right bold. But like, when you first took on Olivia Poe, which is something very big to take on, did you realize how much that role was going to shift the conversation or a woman on television at the time? So, yes and no, like, I,

all of the press when scandal came out, a very big portion of the press when scandal came out was about the fact that it had been almost 40 years since a black woman had been the lead on a network drama.

“And I was, I think, 37 at the time. So in my lifetime, I had never seen it. A lot of my peers.”

We'd never seen it. And so there was all of this talk about how historic the show was.

We didn't know if the show was going to work. We didn't know if anybody would watch the show. But that kind of pressure around it. I felt like if we don't win, it might be another 40 years before a woman of color has the chance to be the number one on a show. But that's a lot of pressure to also put on yourself. But also, again, it was an exercise of, like, really trying to be clear about what I can control and what I can't. Like, I cannot control whether people turn on their televisions

on Thursday night and watch my show. What I can control is my work ethic, like pouring my heart into it, leaving it all out on the court, like doing everything that I can do to make it great, and also on the marketing side. Like, we have that whole idea of life's tweet the show. Like, I can do everything in my power to try to make it a success. But in the end, I can't control what happens. So great point. And in those beginning days, like, what qualities did you love about her when you

first read the material? So when I first read it, I literally threw the script across the room, because I was like, this is me. Like, it felt like it was written for me. It was, um, but also, like, there were 20 other actresses that felt the same way. So I do audition multiple times. But

“it, I think what I loved about her was, it's so funny, because this is very related to the show.”

I have coming out now as well. What I loved about her was that she had the presentation of power, like, she performed power in the world. And she was very powerful. But also behind closed doors, there was this contradiction of being, like, so heartbroken. And, like, her personal life was a mess, just a fucking mess. Just a little bit. Yes. And so that, that dynamic, that duality, I really identified with. I really identified with, like, the presentation of self versus the truth of

self. I love that too, because I agree, which we're going to get to your new show. It's like, the presentation of a woman, most people just take that at face value. Yeah. And it's like,

that's never, it's never as it's seen. We're so much more complicated and cool than that. We have

more going on, please. Of course we do. In what ways did she challenge you in those beginning days?

You know, she had her own company. She was the leader of all the gladiators. She was the most

powerful woman in the White House. And in real life, I was number one on the call sheet.

“And eventually a producer on the show. And so I think she really taught me a lot about what it”

looks like and feels like to be the lead character, both on and off screen. Interesting. Yeah. In a way how empowering, because sometimes I feel like as a woman, like, that must have been kind of incredible to be given the role play. Right. Leadership. There was like, like, literally, put on the shoes, put on the suits, just like you, it's your job to pretend that you have all the power in the room. It was so, such a great exercise. It was like a training ground for me.

What's also so crazy to me is as we're talking about this. I know that obviously this character became one of the most beloved on television of all time. You were going to completely quit acting all together almost before you started scandal. Kerry, what was going on in your life? It's happened a couple of times in my career. I, because I love to act. I love acting. I love the research. I love like disappearing into a character. I love figuring out how she walks and

what music she listens to and what perfume she wears and how she speaks and how she stands. I love

all of that. The business around it, the politics around it, I don't always love. Like the

people feeling like they can, they have agency to tell you what to do with your body or like the rejection and the, like all of that stuff is the competitive nature of it at time. That stuff I

“do not like. I don't like it all. And that's what I think has been so fascinating. Whenever I've”

gotten to sit down with actors and actresses, it's like, we see the glamorous parts. We see the billboards. We see the premier exactly. And I'm like, I love this character. But to get to that point, there is a lot that goes into it. There's a lot of executives that have a say. There's a lot of marketing and branding. And they want you to be malleable. And so there is also a dynamic at play where you're kind of upon as an actor. And until you garner some form of power, you kind of have to play

the game. And you have to decide at what expense and like, or what level are you willing to to draw the line, right? And I think for me, that's part of why I really fell in love with producing. But halfway through scandal, I started my production company Simpson Street. We made a film called Confirmation. I played a need of Hill. And that was like, oh, now I'm, I get it now because I actually don't have to sit at home and wait for somebody to invite me to a party. Like, I can throw my own

party, which you know. What a concept. Like you create your own opportunity. And that, that has been very freeing for me. And it is freeing and also to give credit to like everyone needs the stepping

“tone of you have to go work in the capacity that you see what you like and you don't like. That's”

right. Then as you build your power and your name, you can then be the person that may be changes things through your production company. Like, I want things to run this way because I've

experienced the latter. Yeah. And I think as you know from your journey, like you don't always

know exactly what you're doing in the beginning. But I learned from roleplaying power in Olivia Pope, like sometimes you just put the shoes on and walked down the hall and you figured out along the way, right? Like you grab your product purse and you like you step into it and you'll discover it along the way. If you ask for help and you're willing to make mistakes and you just keep like falling forward. Men are really allowed to fall forward, fall upward. And I feel like we

have to give ourselves permission to do that too. Like a mistake is not the end. A mistake is an opportunity to learn and grow, iterate, shift, move forward. But that's why it's also so nice hearing from someone like you who again we see in media and you've had such success. And that's why I wanted to kind of go back to those OG days of like you walking into Shonda Rhimes office. Yeah. And you walk in and on the walls. It says Shonda Lans her name. I was like, what, what were

you expecting when you walked in for that first meeting? I think I was worried. I was nervous. I was nervous because she had so much power. And like to walk into, I wasn't comfortable yet in my power. So to sit down with somebody who was comfortable enough with her power to have the walls covered in her name. And like she was very comfortable in her power. I think I was nervous about what that would look like, what it would feel like if we would

get along. And it was amazing. Like five minutes into the conversation. I was like, I'm obsessed with her. I want to live in Shonda Lans. I want to be a citizen of Shonda Lans. She's, she's so generous. And she's such a genius. And you realize like, oh, society tells us that we should be intimidated or scared or uncomfortable around a powerful woman. But there's nothing dangerous about this. When you think back to your time with Shonda and you both now being such obviously powerful

over those seven seasons together? Hmm. Oh, there's so many. But the one that really comes to mind

first is when I was pregnant with my first child that I had. So my second child but first

that I, first that I birthed, um, I was so nervous to tell Shonda because I knew that it could be very disruptive to our shooting schedule and to our work environment and I was determined to work for as long as I could and, you know, to keep the show going. But so I was worried. I was nervous to tell her and I asked her to come to my trailer. And not only was she happy for me, she like actually jumped up and down with joy in my trailer. Like I couldn't believe it. She was

genuinely thrilled for me and committed to helping me do this in a healthy, sane, positive way

“while also protecting our show. That is so refreshing to hear because I think they're very far”

and few between people who have ever had that experience with their quote unquote boss or someone

that they're in a job with, right? And also I think going back to what you would said of like, it had almost been 40 years since we had seen a black woman have a role lead in a drama network television show. So this pressure on you, I remember reading like the network said cast music was a risk and Shonda was so so, um, open about wanting you as that person. Like how did those comments affect both of you though? Hmm, I can't speak for Shonda, but we knew that we,

we knew that we were lucky to have each other, that we, you know, so often in these spaces, you're the only woman in the room or the only black woman in the room. And so to be able to have each other and then Judy Smith, who inspired the character and another really amazing writer from Rahmal Mahamed, who is kind of, we've grown up together because she was a research assistant initially on scandal and then I brought her with me to little fires everywhere and now she's the

showrunner on reasonable doubt, which we produced. So she's, that's been also really special. So that,

“that dynamic, I think Shonda and I were like, we had each other, we had each other's backs and there was”

always a great deal of respect. I knew she was my boss, but she would also say to me like, I want your

thoughts, but I would say like four things that I loved about a script before I ever gave any feedback that was to change something, right? Like, and I wasn't manufacturing that. It was really like, there's so much that I love about this and also there's this one thing I'm bumping on. And like, now obviously we know it's such a success, but and, and in that moment hearing from executives, like, this is a risk. Yeah. Then you have success. Like, was there any part of you that

was so happy to be able to prove people wrong? Like, was there any element that you were still looking a little bit back to how they didn't potentially want you in the beginning days?

“I think the thing that I felt most was excited that it wasn't going to be another 40 years. Like,”

halfway through scandal, ABC launched how to get away with murder. And you had Quantico, which was not a black woman, but a woman of color, and you had Empire on another network on Fox. Like, you had suddenly networks were like, maybe it's not so much of a risk. In fact, maybe we need to find our black lead. Like, they were really glued into the cultural value of allowing black women to stand at the center of a story. And I think it was so exciting for audiences too. Like,

there was this mutual excitement. There were people who loved the show because suddenly they were seeing themselves on television, and that was so fulfilling. And so just like, I felt so proud to be offering my sisters that opportunity. And then there were all these people that were like, I knew Olivia Pope was a black woman. They were closest to in their life. Like, they were being allowed a window into the life of a black woman that they didn't have any black woman that they were that intimate

with. And both of those things were so exciting to me because they were both kind of collapsing the idea that there's a group of people that don't matter, right? What you're essentially also saying is scandal opened the door in a lot of ways because it was like, had this not, yes, been successful. You're right. It could have been another 40 years. And instead, it actually propelled so many shows to immediately get on air because of its success. So because of that, we need to play a little

rapid fire. Oh, okay. No pressure. I'll participate a little bit. Okay. You know, I also rewatch it recently. So like, don't worry. What do you think was the worst crisis you can remember that Olivia

from jump, this show is diving into issues. Like, the fact that I was protecting a member of the

queer community in the military, I was like, oh, we're not only is she having an affair, not only is it an interracial relationship, not only it's like, also my client is gay. Oh, let's fucking go. We're hitting it right out. Yeah. Yeah. Like this show. It's like, like, it or leave me. Yeah. Truly. Yeah. No, I was thinking about that, too. And then I was like, you know what? I also would just have to go like the election rigging. I mean, that broke my heart.

That broke my heart. I was like, I of all the things in this case. I didn't want to talk about not in the world. We live right now. I know. I know. I know. I'm so scary. Truly. Yes. But I was like,

horrifying. Sai Tron and the defiance. Oh, I know. I was stressed. Yes. Well, I think also Olivia

“getting kidnapped. Oh, that was, that's what I was like, what is happening? Yeah. It was in put our”

girl back in my hair was insane. I just remember being like, why are they doing the term fits fix it. Okay. Did he try it? He did. In your opinion, what is the most iconic Olivia Pope line of all time? It has to be his handled. It has to be. It's the one that gets quoted to me most often. Yeah. Is it's handled. I agree. I also wrote down, I know this isn't the most iconic, but I remember this because I was like, I wish I could have said this to an ex-boyfriend. Tell me.

You said, I'm not the girl. The guy gets at the end of the movie. I'm not a fantasy. If you want me earn me. I'm telling them we're done. I was like, why did I not use that on a boy? Like, that is gold. There's still time. Okay, fair. Well, I'm very thrilled. I'll tell. I'll tell Matt for an fight one. He's like, what are you talking about? You don't get it. Okay. What was the most fun episode to film and why? Oh, wow. Um, anytime we had like big state gala's, like this is probably

not a nice thing to say, but actually the episode when fits got shot was so much fun to shoot. Like that dress. I'm obsessed with that dress and it just was so dramatic and the exterior. It was just a really, I remember being in that hospital we shot at a hospital on location. It was truly this like very windy night. And so I remember like the moving camera and like the wind is blowing my hair in the gown. It was like this shot is great. It's done. It's very stressed.

Also, I loved when you would wear gloves and gloves. You would go all the gloves. Um, that sometimes directors would be like, do you need gloves? We'd be like, yes. Yes. It needs to be so over the top. Olivia, what? Yes. If you had to choose. Yeah. What was the hottest Olivia and fits moment? If I had to choose, I think I think the hottest Olivia and fits moment was the first time. And this was Ava Duvene's episode. The first time we got to go to Vermont. I just think that house

was so beautiful. The helicopter landing on the lawn. I think that whole moment was just so beyond dreaming and, you know, that we got to actually see Vermont was pretty spectacular, which was really

calibass. It's not Vermont, but it stopped. It stopped. I'm like you never told me that.

I'm talking about Carrie. No, you're in Vermont. Oh my god. Making jam. Oh my god. I can't see that now. Um, okay. You have your phone? Yes. Would you call Tony and ask him what he thinks his favorite go to iconic romantic moment of the two of you. I might be on set. Let's try it. Let's

“try it. If not, I'll tell you mine. Way less interest. Well, you have to tell me you're a”

regardless. He's going to think something's wrong. He's like, why should I call it? I only I must I carry. Hi, Tony. I'm I'm in the middle of an interview. And I got dared to call you. Because I have to ask you a question. Are you ready? Should I say uh-oh. Yeah, you should always say uh-oh. Where are you right now? Just give the give the fan some context. Where are you? I'm in Washington, DC. Of course you are. Uh, we're doing acts. My kids are here and

James are good. They're going to take them to our show. Shall we? Oh, Tony's doing a show in DC at arena. Everybody should go see it. Okay. Yes. Um, so so I have to ask you what you think the hottest Olivia and fits moment on the show ever was. Oh. We didn't have a few. I mean the one minutes. I didn't say the one minutes. I probably should have said one minutes. Is that where you were going to say? No, what were you going to say? I was thinking of having sex with an electrical closet.

“Oh, there's that one. That was like the somebody was getting baptized. Like what if you're children, right?”

We were such bad people. Yeah. I think the one minute was sitting in your apartment. That's the

Yeah, but but on the show in filming, it was in my apartment. I said, I said Vermont. I was like the

first time we got to see Vermont. Yeah, that was great. Yeah, that was pretty good. That was when they

even directed. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Good memory. Thank you, Tony. All right. All that you go. I love you. Madly. I'm just in the middle of the hall daddy. So we called her daddy. Olivia is daddy. Okay. Bye. Love you. I'm having heart publications. I'm so happy you picked up. He's such a busy person. Tony. Not Tony being in DC right now. DC is telling us that he loved fucking in the electrical closet. Not that it really happened.

It's one of the very few scenes that Olivia Popore addressed because the way the scene was written, we had to like in the closet had to be addressed. So it's like one of those rare like I guess for like events and churches, maybe she wears. So it was a baptism. So she had to dress on so then in the closet. We could do what we did in the closet. It's insane. So you two have stayed friends since. Yes. Although it's hard for me to get him on the phone because he mostly hangs out with my husband.

Which is hilarious. So when he's in New York, I'm like, what are you doing? He's like, well, I'm seeing nomad you. I'm like, can I see you? But I guess we have we've all remained friends.

“It's typed with Katie Lowes last week. Like, oh, yeah. Do you think they made it in the show at the end?”

I love I know it's very hard to end a show. I love how the show ended with them like seeing each other and just that classic high. I think it's really sweet because it lets you kind of imagine however you want it to be. But I know a lot of people really hope for them that they're in Vermont, making jam and happy and I was going to say one of my favorite moments was I think it was one of his birthday dinners and you guys meet out on the lawn and you're like, you cheated on your

mistress with your girlfriend or whenever and he was like, don't ever call yourself that and he said, I love you. I'm in love with you. You're the love of my life and the way he said it. He's like, you control me my every day. You own me. That's really good on me. I was like, oh my god,

on the stop. I'm not okay. Such a romantic. She's such an incredible writer. I think she's,

it's a gift how she gets to the thing that will make us all like turn into a puddle. I'm not over the heat to say I'm turned. I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm hearing you

“to talk. Okay. Okay. We're moving on. Okay. Okay. What is a personal moment in your life?”

You got a little cloud because people around you, your kids were there and everyone thought you were Olivia Pope. They're talking about Olivia Pope and your kids are like, oh mom, you're actually cool. So I would think I would, my kids do, let me be very clear. My kids do not think I'm cool. I think there's this very clear because they will have, like, go on a national campaign to refute me if I attempt to assert that they think I'm cool. They do not think I'm cool. But they

were my daughter. So my daughter's first concert was T-Swift and which was very sweet. This is my

younger daughter and we went with her older sister and a bunch of friends. But then I was like, okay, Beyonce's performing in the same place later this summer. Like, as a black mom, there is no way that I'm not letting you see a black woman do in this space. What Taylor Swift did in this space. So she wasn't, yeah, she was a little young because it was Renaissance. So she wasn't like a huge, she had a new Destiny Child Songs but she wasn't Renaissance wasn't really like her

album. She came and when we were walking through the crowd people were like, oh, yeah, and she was like, who is Olivia? Like, she was like, who do they think you are? Like, that is not your name. And it was a little weird to her how crazy people were going until backstage at the friends and family were set first of all. She loved the concert. Like, that was the night I witnessed my youngest daughter become a stand like a Beyonce behind, like, she was like blown away. Yeah.

And then cowboy Carter is her album. Like, we went to get a girl's weekend and Vegas to see her together. You're like, you're welcome. So yes, I put you on exactly. But that night we went backstage like the friends and family thing afterward. And she people were asking to take pictures with me

“which she thought was really weird. And then she was like, well, can I get a picture with Bieber?”

And I was like, hundo pee. I mean, that was like the one moment where she was like, my mom might be slightly cool. She may be half a second strings for me for half a second. Okay. So you had some clout for a minute. Clout with the kids. Yeah. I love that for you. evaporate. Do you believe Olivia Pope eventually became the president of the United States? Mm. Do you? I go back and forth because I think a part of

part of her that just loved her wine, her popcorn hanging out. And she liked being behind the scenes

“in moments. And so would she really want the fiasco that comes with? I don't know. I think she's”

more of a behind the scenes person. I do. And to clarify, like, I would have voted for her. Oh, definitely. I would have. There's no better option. Absolutely. I hope for her today. I want both for her. Ten toes down. Ten toes down. Just ready to go. I'd be ready. Okay. Are there any scandal reboot or movie conversations in the works? There aren't. Although this joke about Jason Finity and to Rick being our children. This is like the joke that will not die. And I love

it so much. They actually do like, she has my smile and to Rick has his smile. It's so absurd. It is kind of weird. So we actually just started a family text thread. To Rick texted me yesterday

and was like, Chase, I don't know. You don't have Gary's number. But now it's the first time

I was like, do I bring Tony into this text thread? It's hilarious. Yeah. We can all pray. Yeah.

“One of the most impactful moments on scandal was when Olivia Pope had an abortion. And when I”

interviewed Shonda, she told me that the network pushed back on that story line and she really had to fight to keep it in. We didn't know if we were going to air that night. Like down to the wire, I was like, what are they going to do? Are they going to like show reruns or they were like, running because they were locked in the disagreement about what it could and could not be. So you literally sat there and waited to see if it aired. Yeah. What did it feel like for you to be

at the center of that moment publicly and privately with the network and everything? I was so proud. I was so proud of Shonda. I was so proud of our whole cast. I was so proud to have shot that scene.

There had been characters on television who had had abortions, but it was the first time that

you got to watch a woman actually in the procedure. And obviously there was nothing graphic about the scene, but it was about her inner life and her emotional reality in that process. And I just as somebody who had had an abortion and as somebody who has fought for reproductive rights, my whole life it feels like. I was so so proud. I know I was going to say in your memoir, like you open up about your abortion in your late 20s and so many people connected to you,

but going back to that moment like what emotions did you feel not only writing about your experience, but then also releasing it to the world. Okay. So first I want to say that I watch a lot of clips of the show. Like a lot of people like I catch parts of the episode that I love the most that I watched beginning to end was your trip to North Carolina. And you say in that episode, if there's one episode you're going to watch, it should be this one. So I just want everybody who's

listening, if you have not watched the North Carolina episode, pause this one. We're not going to go anywhere. We will be here, pause this episode, go listen to and watch the North Carolina episode

“where you are so brave and that work you do is so important in that episode. And then you can come”

back and we'll be here. We'll link it right below. We'll be right here. So welcome back. Thank you. Now we're here, you're educated, perfect. You see what about as she is. So okay, when I was writing my memoir, I did that thing that people tell you to do of like just write everything and then you can decide later what's really going to go in. Because if I wrote the book thinking about people reading it, I would have written one word. Like there would not have gotten past the first page.

So I did a lot of writing of just like vomiting on the page of experiences. And I remember the morning that I was like, I'm gonna write about this thing and I wrote about my abortion experience

and I was like, that's never going to be in the book. And I like put it in the file of things that

will not be in the book. And then when I handed in my book to my editor, there was a line leader in the book about my abortions and miscarriages. And she was like, hey, like circled it, can we get more context here? Like you just drop this in the book, but you don't share about your miscarriages or abortions. And I was like, oh God, and I had to like file through my computer to try to find it. And then having some distance from it, rereading it, I thought, I want to share this. I do want

to share this. Because a lot of what my abortion story is about is my personal loss of privacy. And it is our right to privacy that has been taken away from us. That is how Rovyway got reversed. And I just think, I'm not a bad person because I've had an abortion. And you get to disagree

with my body. You are allowed to believe that. I don't love the judgment, but I make room for it.

“Because everybody is who they are. What you can't do, what I don't want you to do, what I'm”

going to fight until the day I die to make sure you can't do is to make decisions about what I do with my body. Like your opinion is yours, but my body, my bodily autonomy, my ability to decide how and when I start a family that needs to be mine. It's so sad because it sounds so simple. It sounds so simple. And obviously it's not for you, Carrie, you felt like you said ready to tell it, but were you nervous at all about the reaction? I was. I don't know if my parents even knew

at that point that I had had an abortion. My husband knew, but I don't, I know there were friends

and family members who didn't know. So I was nervous, but I also felt like, I mean, I'm just, what's the point? At this point, I was writing this book really revealing myself. I talked about my eating disorder. I talked about my genetic background. I talked about sexual abuse. I mean,

“I was like, why would I hold this back? What would I be protecting and holding this back?”

And I think there are reproductive lives or so shrouded in secrecy. We don't talk about abortion or miscarriages or adoption or infertility or even our periods or menopause. And I just think we have to take the cloaks off of our reproductive lives. Our bodies are our bodies. Abortion is healthcare. In fertility treatment is healthcare. It doesn't have to be filled with shame. It doesn't. And I think what is so hard, though, is because it is, and that is the stigma.

It does take strong women like yourself who come forward knowing there is going to be backlash,

knowing there will be judgment, knowing that there are people in the world that may never

look at you the same. You can lose fans because of this because it is such a definitive line in the sand for some people. So it hurts me to know that it's also at the cost of so many women having to be so strong in the capacity that they shouldn't have to be. You know, I was thinking about it. You shot that scene for scandal and you had not at that time publicly talked about your abortion yet. Was it triggering at all to film that scene? I don't think it was triggering to

film it. I do think it was cathartic. It like allowed me to sometimes in my work as an actor, what I'm doing is like what looks like truth on screen is often because an actor will try to find the closest truth that I know to what the character is going through and share that through the character's body and through her words. So what the gift that I got in filming that scene was I got to share my truth through Olivia Pope. I got to say like this is something that happened to me,

this is something that I chose, this is something that I've lived through and I'm not going to hide it anymore. Even though I was hiding it, like on some like deeper emotional level, I was able to say like I'm going to step into the truth of this moment and share it with all of you. So you just showed up every day that you were filming that just yes, keeping it to yourself and just pouring it into the work. Yeah. And at the end of that, it just fully felt cathartic. There was no

it felt like I had less to hide. That's the healing that often happens through characters is that I

“feel like, and you must have felt this also doing your documentary that like on the other side of it,”

which was your real real real truth. On the other side of it, I just often, when a character is really when I'm lucky, a character lets me share a truth through her and on the other side of it, I feel a little bit healed. It's beautiful. Yeah. I know that you also wrote, which I think is so important to point out because two women who are listening to this, this is probably a very, very relatable feeling of the shame and embarrassment that you were feeling leading up to the procedure

and the loneliness, right? If you could go back, what kind of empathy or just kindness do you wish you could have shown yourself? It took me a long time to forgive myself, not for having the abortion. I really knew that that was the right choice for me, but it took me a long time to forgive myself for getting pregnant. And I learned a lot about myself about, I learned a lot about what was going on for me mentally and emotionally that I allowed that to happen and it really

honest with myself in the moment and how to stay in my body. Like I have a lifetime of disembodiment

of like based on sexual abuse, based on all kinds of stuff, like of leaving my body. And I feel like so much of my life and my work as an actor has been about trying to figure out how to be back in my body and live and stay present in my body. And that experience was really like a line in the sand for me of like this is the situation I have found myself in because I do not know how to stay in my body and in my truth. I mean that's so even hearing you say that, Carrie, it's so one

yes, like hard, but also two, I can't help it be like yes, but it does take two and so I can't

“help me like oh, but give yourself even sure. But I'm hearing what you're saying also, which I think”

is one of the most terrifying and scary and unsaid things that women go through, which is

why didn't I like advocate for myself? Why didn't I say no? Why wasn't I more clear? Why wasn't I and how did I get lost in the moment? Like I was at that point I had been a sex educator for like decades. I've heard over a decade because I started doing that work sex education work when I was like 13. So I was like I knew better. Like how am I getting swept up? Like what what is going on? But it's like people pleasing. Perfectionism, disembodied men, all of that. And I think it's so much

easier. We can read something on a paper. We can ingest it in a lecture. But when you are in a moment and you are living it and that is why unfortunately really mainly primarily only women will be able to relate to this. When people are like well why do you just say no? It's like when you are in that moment and there is so much going on in your brain and not going on in your body because you're dissociating in your living yourself. It is close to impossible to be able to create a strong

boundary because a lot of the times it is easier to just go with what is happening, whether it's

“for safety or whatever it be. So you writing about that I think was just so powerful because it”

also is like there is kind of not an immediate answer in those moments. It's just giving yourself grace of life. You felt guilt after that of you took primarily the responsibility of getting pregnant. And then what was the process of undoing that guilt for yourself? I think the thing you talked about around learning how to not disassociate with a lot of therapy, a lot of work, a lot of introspection. But it's been a journey for me of staying in my body,

like the healing around the eating disorder, all the work around like how do I stay in my body so that I can make choices that are right for me. I guess the choice to have an abortion I was so clear. I was like I am in this moment, I am in my body, I am in the truth of what's happening in my body and I need to make a very clear decision and I knew it was right for me and I was like I want to be in this state more often, if not all the time, right? I want to be with

myself and I remember when you wrote, I know legally clinics have to ask the questions to make sure that this is the right choice for you and in your book you described this as having to essentially

“defend your choice for an abortion. How did it feel in that moment to have to justify yourself?”

To get yourself to that point, feeling confident in yourself, knowing this is what the right this is for your body and then someone looking at you being like, let's walk through or you sure, how did that feel? I think it contributed to the guilt because I wasn't, I was at a place I was at an age where I could have chosen to have a child. I was in a relationship where I could have chosen to have a child. There were lots of factors that it wasn't a life or death situation

for me. It wasn't the case of rape or incest. So I could have made that choice, I just knew it wasn't the right choice for me and that feels really specific and it leaves room for a lot of people to disagree. It can seem selfish, it can seem a lot of things but you get this one life and I knew that this was the right choice for me. What do you wish more people understood about the realities women face when it comes to abortion? I think that it's not an easy decision. By the time a woman

makes the decision to have an abortion, it's never an easy decision. So I think we need to give people

I love about your episode was when you challenge that guy around like, "Well, shouldn't

young men just get for sex to me?" And then like when they're ready to have babies, we can reconnect

“them and I think that all of the onus gets put on women is it's just so unfair. It's so unfair”

and the minute that I tried to engage him in the conversation and include them, they're like whoa whoa whoa it's like yeah but what laws that you're legislating might? Yeah reproductive organs so why can't I legislate yours? Why are there no laws around men's bodies and it's like well hold on and so I agree it's like I think where we're at right now is it feels impossible finding a way to bring people to the table to have a conversation because we're sitting here right now and there are women that don't have

the same right that you did in the moment. My daughters don't have as many rights as I did at their age neither one of them that's a travesty to me and you know if this was really about saving lives then we would do a better job taking care of the children that exist in the world right now like if everybody who believes that abortion should be illegal was also like really ready to come forward with supporting education and healthcare and resources for families to be able to thrive we could

maybe understand this conversation a little bit more but it doesn't feel like that doesn't feel like it's about care for a child it feels like it's about control of a woman and maybe

“control of children too so I just I think actually the real answer to your question is like”

we don't have to be silent about this I know that we we are in a moment where we have fewer rights than we ever have had when it comes to our bodies but we still have a lot of rights we have the right to free speech we have the right to be able to protest we have the right to vote and we have to take advantage of the rights that we have to try to grow some of the ones that we've lost that hopefully is what people can understand we're saying it's like if it is not the right

choice for you then you that's fine that's fine that's the beauty of living in a free country and democracy you get to like make choices for yourself so let's make sure that is applicable to every single woman on this earth that's right thank you for talking with me about that they just think there's so many women that listen to this and it is important the topic especially right now I want to pivot to your family yeah because you best part of me yes and something that

you know you referenced earlier and you mentioned in your memoir a few years ago you revealed that your dad was not your biological father because your parents used a sperm donor just take me to that moment of like how did they break the news to you and what was that conversation like carry so when scandal ended I bumped into Henry Louis Gates who is an incredible professor who has

this television show called finding your roots and we've been friends for a long time and I always

wanted to do finding your roots but I never had time because of scandal and he was like I read that it's gonna be scandals last season I said yeah he said will you come do the show and I was like I'm absolutely like this is my moment my mom is so interested in genealogical stuff with our family and I know my dad will be into this so be so great so I call out my parents and I'm like I bumped into skip gates I'm gonna do find a year roots we're gonna learn everything we can possibly

learn about our family and my dad started having panic attacks and I couldn't figure it out my mom was like that's great I was like okay well she's always a little you know like she's my

“mom is not the most emotionally expressive person that's how I say it so I was like alright well I”

think it's great and maybe she she thinks it's great too and we'll get there my dad was not happy and I was like what are you afraid of like you worry that you're gonna find out like your great grandmother was like um I don't know like how to brothel or like what like what's the what could possibly be the issue um so I offered my parents because skip gates is closer to their age generation. I was like do you want to talk to a professor gates and like maybe he can help

call me you guys down and so basically this Harvard professor knew about my genetics before I did

because my parents were like what if hypothetically speaking and you're like she happened to be born from a sperm bone or like would that come up and he was like definitely it would and you need to tell her and they were like no no no no no no and he was like he said thank God he said to them that in all of his years of doing the show when this has this kind of thing has come up that people's greatest regret is not being able to know when everybody's still alive

because you don't get to deal with it and move through it and like get closer in the truth of it

like I mean it has happened once or twice like when my mother first told me she had cancer or

when my dad was in trouble with the law like I was like this is not good news um and I went to the apartment their apartment in LA and um and they like fumbled through sharing this news with me

“and I remember like the it was like I don't know it was like that scene in Allison Wonderland where she's”

like free falling through the characters and the the props that I just was like what is happening nothing felt solid I felt kind of dizzy I was like is this like a weird prank like I just I could I was so confused and also at the exact same time I felt like yes this is it like this is the this is the puzzle piece that I've been trying to solve for my entire life this is why this is part of why I've had such a hard time being in my body and staying in my body it's

because my body has been a lie to me from the moment I came to this planet like from the moment I was born the two people who love me the most have lied to me about who I am and about where this body comes from and so I had an opportunity to make peace with my body for the first time and with my the truth of who I am and and like how I am here I mean things really cool I was

gonna say like incredible and so disoriented yeah like 40 years of your life you believe your

father is your biological blood father they tell you this like how did you even begin as a human being to process something like that my first concern my first concern was my dad because I remember looking at him and he was devastated like I could tell he felt like he lost to be and so it took me a while to actually even figure out how I was feeling about it because I realized very quickly that my parents needed my help in this moment that they were

courageously stepping into the scariest thing they had ever done and that they thought that they were gonna explode our family that they were gonna destroy us as a family because I'm an only child

so it's just the three of us and so I really the my first concern was like to sit next to my dad

and to look at him and to say I just want you to know that I love you and that every day that I've said I love you up until now for you it's been on the condition of a lie

“because you think I love you because I think you're my dad I said today you get to know”

that I love you unconditionally because I know you're not my biological father and I still love you that's it oh my god it was really power I can't imagine the relief but also did you ever get to talk about like did they do this out of did they say because they thought they were protecting you yes yeah I mean at the time nobody knew 40 plus years ago that there was gonna be a 23 and me or an ancestry dot com like that was like science fiction I was like the jet sins like what

so so it was really I think they were really protecting me they were trying to make me not feel other not feel different not feel weird like it wasn't like today you and I have friends who like go to a sperm bank and look through a binder and like choose what degree the person has and like what color eyes the donor will have but this was like the wild west my mother like got a phone call like we have it it's warm come to the office like she had no idea who the

person was my parents just said like please let him be healthy and let him be black because they

“didn't want anybody to know so they wanted to keep it a secret so it just I think it was so”

sure again shrouded in secrecy and shame and also my dad's shame about not being able to provide I think it was about protecting him and protecting me and so much emotions all around yeah although not the same this makes me think about your new show imperfect women which touches on secrets and how they impact relationships right yeah how did you use what you went through in your life to inform this character that you just went on to play it's such a good question you're so

good at this I'm having a terrible surprise surprise us to no one um so I I think one of the biggest things that shocked me when I went on book tour was that every single person at every book signing when they were taking a picture with me was like my family has a secret like they were they were sharing their family see and I started realizing like oh every family has a secret we all have them all of us it's part of what defines us right it's like the moment that we reveal our truth

and how our family deals with it is a big part of what defines who we are and who our family is

Reese with her spoon sent me little fires everywhere before my parents told me and in little

fires everywhere I play a woman who volunteers to be a surrogate and then does not tell my daughter who her father is like it is so absurd that this was the project that resented me when I said my mom the book my mother was like oh like and hindsight I like I watched my life now like the way you watch one of those movies where you're like oh there were all these Easter eggs but I didn't know they were Easter eggs in the morning I completely I watched that show I love that show

I completely forgot that crazy it's so what your mom like freaking out and you said her this is great she's like so gorgeous but also it was such a blessing because by the time we were filming

that show I did know and then I actually got to step into my parents shoes because I had this

beautiful young actress Lexi underwood saying like tell me who my father is and me through tears saying I can't I can't like I had to really really step into in a very compassionate way understanding my parents fear and why they couldn't tell me so that was such a gift you found this out while you were filming in the process of developing that show I'd already signed on to it and then they told me that I want to go make it which is insane oh you're like this role is yeah I'm not crazy oh

wow so then when we were doing in developing imperfect women I realized like this is something that I a theme that I returned to again and again the kind of presentation of self versus who we really are because for so much of my life even when I didn't know that I was born from a donor I knew that something was up like I knew that there was something some weird missing puzzle piece in my family I didn't know what I didn't know but I knew we weren't real with each other I knew that we

were not 100% transparent I talk about in the book is like a veil there was like a veil between

“my parents and I you want to keep a secret you tell my mother and father because my mother has four”

sisters none of them knew her mother like no one knew not a single so also it was so freeing for her to be like I don't have to keep the secret anymore yeah but so so for imperfect women I really gravitated toward this project because I was like this is a series about about women who keeps secrets from each other even though they love each other so so much it's three friends who adore each other and they want to be in their truth but because we have this pressure in society and

culture to be perfect they keep things from each other really important things from each other and it's like why love when shows like this explore that concept is because the the word secret understandably has such a negative connotation but it is so refreshing even when we're talking about what happened with you with your parents it's like when you explore the why there's so much underneath a lot of secrets that a lot of it comes from the person genuinely thinking they're

“protecting the people that they love and really it's like most of the time the truth is always the answer”

but but we can empathize with the people that keep the secrets when you actually get underneath the why of why they genuinely are terrifying it's terrifying I think in the end we're all afraid that we're not going to be loved that we're not going to be accepted that we're not going to belong to the people that we love the most if we let them know who we really are and so I think watching people grapple with that and and be willing to unpack that is so captivating because it's terrifying

for all of us it is and it's so universal just like the fear of reduction yeah you referenced earlier

how you have struggled with an eating disorder and this doesn't always look the way we expect

it to right how did you recognize and come to terms with the fact that you were struggling so I want to say I want to share with you because I'm super proud of it I invested in a company called a clip which is this incredible online community for healing recovery from eating disorders

“and why I believe so strongly in this work is because I've you know as a person of”

privilege I've been able to have group therapy and individual therapy and nutritionists and physical trainers and doctors like I've had access to incredible health care throughout my life and this platform equipment is like the democratization of that kind of health care they create a team of health care support around every single person so that the healing because eating disorders are such a multidimensional illness it's it's psychological it's biological it's

cultural and so you need your team of support to reflect that kind of care and so they do this online with people all over the country and they take insurance and it's unbelievable so yeah so I'm very proud of that work and for me I think especially it's important because a lot of people of color

community women of color men of color it just we I think in general we tend to downplay how dangerous

eating disorders are even though they are fatal so many people die every year from eating disorders so I think for me I recognized it because I knew that I was in a real mental health crisis like the thing that actually got me to get help with my eating disorder wasn't the food itself wasn't the behavior with the food it was the suicidal ideation I was like I'm using food as an exercise as a tool to not be here like I'm trying to escape life and I need to figure out how to be in life

because I don't that was terrified that I was being so mean to myself right that I was in so much pain

“that it was like inflicting more pain was the only way out of my pain and it's so hard to”

recognize when you're in it like I think and it's also sometimes and I know I've spoken to

women before on my show where they say like it's sometimes easier to stay in it because dismantling all like you said this is not just like and then just you stop doing it's like you have to go through the psychological you need to get into the body and like I like to say you know and this is not to diminish the the power of any addiction but there are some addictions where the work is like you have to put it down and you stop and one of the things that's tricky about an eating disorder is

I have to take this tiger out of a cage and pet it like a house cat three times a day right like that's that is one of the interesting dynamics is that like you you can't just say I'm not going to eat you that's actually another extension of eating disorders so you you have to be in relationship with this thing that is so challenging to engage with. I remember reading that quote of yours and it was such a it was so helpful to read that because I do I agree it puts it into perspective

that this this feeling and this whether it's disorder or addiction or whatever you want to call it like it's ever present you can't survive without eating and so I agree it's like every addiction is horrible but this one specifically there is such a complexity too yeah it's similar to like the money addictions or the sex addictions were like you can't just give it up yes you've got to figure out how to do it and when it doesn't ruin your life and the lives of the people you love

the most yes what was your healing process like I mean it was the first it was the first thing that

got me on my knees ever like the first time I ever prayed was to get out of this insanity where I was like

“the only thing like my entire life revolved around what I was eating or not eating how many calories”

I was burning I was it when I was in college it was the worst the worst the worst that's when I first went into treatment and I was the first time I got on my knees to be like I need help and so it was for me it was group therapy it was individual therapy it was the first time I ever went to see a shrink and have therapy and talk about my feelings it was working with nutritionists it was all of that stuff yeah I think something that can be really hard is like when you are genuinely so

concerned about someone it can come off like you are criticizing or you're commenting on their body when you're trying to help them do you have any advice for people listening on like how to navigate that type of conversation if you are a friend or a family member concerned I had the opposite where I went to a couple people to say I think I need help with this and people are like it's fine everybody eats when they're upset like they they kind of refused to see how serious it was

“because they didn't want that to be true for me and I think sometimes people do that because they”

don't they don't want to look at their own behavior with food so they're like this fine whatever we don't have to talk about it so it's also just listening to people around you I think if you're if you're the one struggling it's trusting your gut if you know you need help don't let anybody tell you that it's not a big deal and as a parent if you know your child needs help also because I I mean even a lot of pediatricians struggle to diagnose eating disorders there's a lot of

education that needs to happen in the medical community where still people in medical schools are being taught that eating disorders are things that happen to like white wealthy people in suburb there's all this weird misinformation around who has them and even what are eating disorders what are the different eating disorders so I think like if you're a parent trusting your gut and getting help for your young ones and if you're struggling don't minimize it like it might be an eating

disorder it might be disorder eating it could be a whole spectrum of things but if you need help ask for help like you don't need to suffer alone you don't need to live in pain you don't need to to engage in activity that takes you out of life as someone who is in the public eye

commentary affect you I keep thinking it's like a lot of times when you're asking me questions

I'm like I love the title of our show imperfect women because I'm like so much of the journey is about being like I'm not perfect we're all imperfect like imperfect is a synonym for human it's just

“like that that is that's who I am so I think I'm in a place in my life now where I understand it's”

I mean people are gonna have their opinions I'm just doing the best I can and I have pretty high standards so like I'm reaching for gold in my version of me and if it's not good enough for you then that's your issue to deal with like yeah it's a great point and I also think I had somewhat of a conversation similar to this with Michelle Obama where we talked about how the internet can

queen Michelle Obama yeah queen okay still said to pause if you didn't know I'm still not over it yes

okay um the internet is so ruthless when it comes to body shaming and criticizing women yeah but the sad reality is a majority of the time it is coming from other women what do you think is behind that we're not taught to love ourselves it's not like a core value and it needs to be and so I think a lot of times we reach for criticism of ourselves and others because we just don't know how to choose to be more loving we don't know how it's so true and I think

like when women go at other women there's almost this projection that's happening whether it's someone that's triggering something in you whether you're seeing something that you wish you can be doing or you it makes your idea of what's acceptable yes and I think like what I want to work on and I think when Michelle talked about that I was hoping like also my audience can work on it's like really pausing in those moments where you do have a negative feeling towards another

woman and really trying to dissect like why is this happening because where is this coming because

“we're only going to continue to perpetuate it and the the only way we're going to dismantle the”

patriarchy of all the men are just laughing like they're just like oh my god if anything now they're also busy tearing each other down but we used to have to do it now you're all doing it yourself wow it's like it's worked so they've worked so long to put us in this position where we are and below them and we have to believe we are equal and so we have to start actually rising directly next to them and looking at ourselves being like the only way we're going to get there is

if we actually shut our mouths the next time that we want to say something negative about another woman I'm not saying you can't disagree with women you can't be you know say I think the opposite of you or I actually don't agree with what you are doing sure but maybe the next time you think to do that you stay silent at least publicly on that or DM the person and have a private conversation I don't know I just think there's different solves to actually getting underneath how do we

stop the war against women when half of the time it feels like we're in it within ourselves yeah I mean the thing is what you're talking about requires a lot of maturity because there's a certain level of emotional regulation that when I get ramped up about something that I don't just jump to react but that I pause like I feel like such a big part of being an adult a mature adult is in the pause like am I willing to pause take a beat look at my side of the street before I'm reactive

and it's really I feel like it is at the cornerstone of being able to grapple with a lot of really challenging relationships I mean it's really important in parenting pausing is really important in parenting I can't imagine because you do you and you get triggered a lot you get activated a lot by stuff to great point and I can't help but think like you've been in so many rooms with men and women in this very heightened industry do you have any moments where you realized you were kind of

being set up to compete with other women and how has that evolved for you as you have kind of come

into more power compared to maybe the beginning days where you didn't have as much of a say I will never

“forget this I think it was Chris Rock who said this to me that the most racist thing that's ever”

been done to you you'll never know about because you weren't even in the room I think it's true in sexism too like the most sexist decision that gets made about us we won't even have access to the moment it got made because it will be in a room that we did not have access to so that's wild it's a

of the opposite like I I referred to this earlier when when the script for a scandal was circulating

everybody was obsessed because we hadn't seen an opportunity for a black actress like this in our life times and everybody wanted to read for it everybody thought they were born to play this character

“and god bless Shanda she was like if you want to read I will let you read like she saw”

everybody because she understood the hope that lived in these the pages of this script for so many people and I remember speaking at a luncheon for essence magazine after I had gotten the part so it was a room full of black women and I don't know how to explain this but I'm gonna try I felt nothing but love in that room and I knew that there could have been like I could have been standing in front of that room in front of all those women many of whom I knew were like

down to the way it's like down to me and four of their women all of them were in there there was no sense of competition there was no sense of like it should have been me there was no sense of how dare she it was all like you have to go win this thing like we believe in you you got it now you have to go win for us and that magic I was like this is I know that this is not the norm I know that this is rarefied air that we're all breathing right now and I felt so grateful

and responsible for them for all of us for like for like standing up for representing all of us and by the way there may have been some of them who went home and were like that bitch like I know I could have done that part with my eyes closed I don't know why she's doing it like I'm not saying those feelings were in there but I'm saying like in that room the energy that they were consciously sending my way was all love I mean that though is I agree it's like we can

yes we can always focus on the negative but that is such a testament to the statement and the

reality that has kind of been built out is that there can only be one woman at the top I know and although in that moment it was proving true as you're saying I am a black woman in this position that for 40 years it hasn't happened and so it is on my shoulders right now but how incredible that you took that and you had all these women standing there being like we are rooting for you

“you have to win you have to win and I always say like I didn't change history like I was going to”

I was going to come in and know my lines and make strong choices I was going to do my job as an actor no matter what the person who made history that was our audiences like audiences all over the world they tuned in and they made a point they they were able to prove to the network that it wasn't a risk that it was actually a strong ROI that we were going to bring the value so when I think about that moment I also think all of those women they were the women who were like

retweeting and reposting and joining in on Thursday nights because when we were a grassroots you

know midseason replacement show it was like black women who are first like you got to watch

this show you got to watch my go carry like that's that energy so we did all win together there was only room for one but it took all of us to break that door open and then there was room for more of us to go through it right back to what you said all of those shows that follow yes that first

“there was only and that is I think what like ending that conversation it's like that is such that”

is what we're talking about it's actually yes if it can only be one woman in the room we have to believe that she's going to work her ass off and it will allow for the rest of us to also rise with her and we have to believe that we just have to and it's why we can't tear each other apart for our imperfections because when one of us comes forward to say I had an abortion it was the hardest thing I've ever done it it was a really difficult time in my life but I made that choice when we allow her to

do that we allow other people to say I have a secret too I have a secret too I adopted my children into anybody I used to sperm donor my husband's infertile I'm infertile like whatever it is like we when we make room for each other's truth also like each other's success each other's pain like we have to support each other's women in our human imperfect messy journey so that we can continue to be badass and human and imperfect and messy and awesome it's so true because then the stigma is

gone yeah there's only a stigma because we're making it it's right and then the more we keep talking about it that stigma will be gone yeah and then people won't have to keep these secrets because we can stay in community and just be who we are girl I needed this I did okay relationships okay

oh wow that's such a good question what has my partner taught me about myself that I'm really

“really lucky I'm like I must have just been really good in a vast life because I mean what an”

extraordinary human so I'm really lucky um oh god he teaches me stuff all the time one of the things that I really love about our relationship is that very early on we started couples therapy like we started couples therapy before anything was wrong like we just started couples therapy kind of preventively um he was newer to therapy I feel like I've been in therapy my whole life but we were like we should just like start having these conversations so that if something

does get hard we already have a culture of knowing how to talk about stuff I'm obsessed with

couples therapy it's amazing it's my favorite it's like part logistics meeting part like um

party part date in the afternoon like I so look forward to it we start every session with something that the other person did well like something that we appreciate about the other person and like every time I am like this is the best part of my week because so often what's really interesting is so often the thing he shares with me that he appreciated or the thing I share with him it's not something I would have guessed it's like something that to me was small but to him it

meant a lot and that's so useful because now I'm like oh I can do that again like I can do that all that's that was nothing to me right like so you really learn how to love each other better in that way by starting with something good um I think he's taught me just how to be a better person a better human um and he's given me the greatest gift which is his partnership and also to be a mom you know you know yeah um something I was thinking about is you have been able to maintain

a career and obviously you talked about motherhood right yeah to anyone listening that's like girl you in particular yeah I'm like girl I was thinking about starting a family like to anyone it's maybe thinking about that one day um how girl give me the advice what do I do oh do you do

“it I have a girlfriend too I have said like you should just come over because it's a little bit”

like you just need to see it you just need to see it in the wild like you just need to be like oh like it's chaotic it's crazy and it's awesome like you just got it like you just have to come over a perfect yeah just watch it yes I'll just watch it like you should sing and lie in in the wild

you're like it's real okay perfect we can do it I would say you're never gonna feel ready

or by the time you feel ready then you're like on a clock um I don't know just follow your gut yeah follow your gut I know I feel like that's a lot of what I've read online or like seeing people talk about it's like there's only so much advice you can give to people and then it's like you got to just throw yourself into it because everyone's made it work somehow yeah that's right like it's gonna be hard that's right but there's also a journey you need to go on for yourself

yeah that there's only so much you can read in books or listen to one podcast and it's like kind of got to live it I was a two things okay one is just think about it like don't not think about it right like the biggest thing I say to my girlfriends is like don't just make your whole life about work be open to thinking about where these other pieces can fit in because Michelle Obama says this all the time you can't have everything all the time but you want to make sure

that by the time the things you want or by the time you're ready for the things you want you're still able to do them right so like really be your so strategic about your life like don't be afraid to be a little bit strategic about this yeah it's great and plan right like like take it seriously this is part of the plan this is part of the plan so take it seriously I feel like Olivia came out a little bit about there it's my name on that door but it's your name on that door so

“I like it um okay this is the plan Alex I'm like yes keep going yeah I think also a lot of my”

audience is in a phase right now where they're maybe getting engaged or they're thinking about marriage and the way that you just said you know you feel so lucky which is a partnership like is there any conversations that you do think are essential before getting married that maybe my audience could benefit from having well I do think not being afraid to allow independence in your marriage is important right like I have I remember having a conversation with one girlfriend

who was just like they have to love Indian food and I was like well why like I will eat Indian food

with you first of all you can go to an Indian restaurant by yourself and also I will always eat

if you don't good if you have separate interests it's it's important it's powerful it's meaningful

and then you get to come back to each other and have something to talk about like so I think

“not being afraid of independence is really important um and I think the family thing is important like”

do you want to have kids you know I want to have kids that I think that's really important yeah I actually really love the independence topic too because I think to anyone listening it's also like so much that goes into the beginning days of a relationship is this conscious coupling of like do we work do we have the same disin this and do our lives merge and so much is seeing if you are compatible which yes is important but then you're merging so heavily and making sure everything

aligns that then it's like well wait what if one thing is off and it's like no no no watching my parents now who have had had been married for 40 plus years and the things that they both don't align on in terms of what they like or whatever it's actually so beautiful because as I said they've grown they've filled in that area with friends or their child goes and does it with them or they do it alone and that allows for the independence to remain which is so integral to a

relationship because you came in as individual you don't want to then just somehow merge like you fell in love because of who you came in as individuals that's right that's right I also think though like there's a lot my I did not have a very traditional wedding but I do think about those

“vows I think they're so powerful because I think you have to really ask yourself in sickness”

like in poverty when things are not good like who is this somebody who I want to be down with and who is gonna be down for me on the good days and the bad days like really asking yourself in the more challenging times is this my writer die like is this my do I want to be this person's co-pilot and do I want them to be mine because that's also the thing right is that like part of that independence conversation is like I am the lead in the story of my life he is the lead in the

story of his life but also I like being the supporting character in his life and he likes being the supporting character in my life that I can I can I can have both I can be in two movies I can be in like the carry Washington movie where it's all about me but I also really love being number two on the costume in his movie you know I love that I know I'm thinking about like all the girlies listening like if you are just liking him right now because it fits into your social calendar maybe maybe

just think a little bit more before he gets down on one me or whatever you're gonna do it because there is so much more to life yeah then just the fun times you're right in sickness and in health when money is lost like those were the there's the important things carry um okay back to your new show as we yes I was gonna say wind down and I was like every time my therapist says I get triggered I'm like what do you mean I'm like we're at the 50 minute mark please like I could be sobbing

and she's like well I asked me wind down like wait no don't leave it now I wind up saying it

first because I don't want the therapist say I'm like I know we don't have much time I always say

that at the end of sessions I'm like I know we don't have a lot of time no that's actually so real you start to look and you're like we have one minute I'm gonna say first and it's like oh my you are not going up with me I'm ready up with you it is so that is so real um okay I know you said obviously you can't give spoilers but like what do you think fans are going to love the most about this show this show I swear to you I know a little something about like watercolor television

this show is your next like cannot miss everybody's talking about it psychological thriller sexy juicy girly fantastic show it is like it's so captivating these characters are unbelievable the acting is crazy like Elizabeth Moss is a beast of an actress she's just a beast Kate Mara is a beast we are all three women who have held our own shows so did like team up together

to support each other and the telling of this story is incredible I imagine this is what it

feels like to be on a dream team at the Olympics where you're like I can't drop the ball like I

“can't be the one who doesn't sink the ball like you have to I have to win because this team has to win”

so you every day also one of the things that's really cool about the show that I love is that it's actually told from different point of view it seems like it's my show in the beginning and then it becomes Nancy show and then it becomes Mary's show and so like you're actually getting the story from different perspectives which is like unraveling of truth as you keep going through so you go deeper and deeper into these secrets and into these discoveries it's just so good we would have

arguments on set constantly about the things these characters were doing like we disagreed among casting crew about whether things were right or wrong whether people could do what they were doing like does that make you a good friend or a bad friend oh my love shows like that that actually force you to really self-reflect and be like wait do I think what I agree with that what I do that yeah my husband was like kind of I'd go home and I'd be like okay if I died he's like I don't want to talk about

for everyone watching like I think we love you we love watching you on our TV's you're just

“obviously bend with us for so long and any project you have I think we all rally behind you because”

you're just you're our comfort watch you're our girls oh like I am so excited for you I'm so excited

for this new show and I am I can't wait to call my mom after this because she doesn't even know oh she doesn't even know I'm interviewing you today is she let's hear oh so you guys should

“both come over this is what you should do you should both come over and I will convince you to have”

children I am like I'm gonna take your word for that I've never followed up no that means so much

in your so sweet and my mom would actually pass out but thank you for your time I know you're so busy

“I know you have so much going on and like to get two hours of your time to sit with you to pick your”

brain to go back and relive memory lane with the scandal days all the way to the current projects like you are such a special woman and I'm honored to have met you and thank you for giving me your time thank you so much and thank you for forcing me to call my friend Tony oh literally hearing a living in fits a more time I was like oh I need to go re-watch it now thank you thank you