Cecilia

If you're a business owner, you know that it matters how you present your business online.

“Squarespace has the tools you need to customize your website and advertise all the kinds of services you provide.”

Plus, you can choose the colors and fonts you like. Go to squarespace.com/criminal for a free trial.

When you're ready to launch, use the offercode criminal to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain.

How can we understand the decisions facing the United States and Israel and Iran as they weigh next moves in this war? War that was meant to prevent from reaching a bomb, eventually might boost them beyond the rubicon and to have that bomb. I'm John Finer, and I'm Jake Sullivan, and we're the host of the Long Game, a weekly national security podcast. This week, former Israeli Defense Intelligence Officer Danny Centronowitz joins us from Israel to discuss the war against Iran. The episodes out now, search for and follow the Long Game wherever you get your podcasts.

This episode contains references to sexual violence. Please use discretion. When I was a child, I thought I was an extraterrestrial, that was in UFO, and I told my grandmother that I was a really funny story.

“What did you say when you said you were there? My brother told me that they found me in a railroad, right?”

One day, we were crossing a railroad and my brother told me, "That's where we found you." And two killed with us because you were naked on the railroad as a baby. And around the same time, I was kicked out of the bathroom in the girls' bathroom in school. And I'm from an area of Argentina, where there's a lot of UFO activity in the 70s. So I put two and two together, and I went to my grandma and I said, "Grandma, I think I know what happened.

I am an alien that I was left by mistake here, but I belong to a country with a planet where all the girls have puppies like me. And my grandmother being the great grandmother that she was, she says, "That makes sense. I'm pretty sure that's true." And we slept under our side in a huge patio with the fruit trees that she had.

“And we spent the night outside waiting for my family from another planet to come and rescue me.”

And of course that didn't happen. Cecilia Gentili was born in 1972, in a very small town in Argentina.

I was using the girls' bathroom. I always had a tendency.

Sometimes I would say that I was a girl, but I always said that I wasn't a boy. That was a constant for me. And around my teenagers, years in adolescence, I started being attracted to other boys. And I guess being gay is the closest thing to what I feel at the time. It wasn't conversation about trans people. It was not a conversation about being trans.

It was not internet. So I thought I was crazy for a long time.

When I went to the big city, to go to college at age 17, I met the first trans person that I ever met in my life.

And it was like this huge realization of like, first of all, I'm not crazy. Second of all, I may not be a UFO person. I may not be an extraterrestrial. And there is like, you know, it is people like me in the world. So I just verbally, almost assault this woman.

Please, please help me. Help me. Help me. I need you. I need you. I'm like, you. I need help. She was like, oh, I'm down. And I, you know, she said, okay, you know, I help you. She said, I'm working right now. She was in the street.

I'm just saying, I'm working right now. Go to the bar and when I finish working, we'll meet and we talk more.

It's three things that you need to know.

“You're going to be a horror. You're going to get high and you're going to die young.”

Those are the three things that you need to know and be clear about before making the decision of a transition.

And I didn't have a fair minute. I said, yes, yes. And yes, I'm okay with all of those.

I'm Phoebe Judge. This is criminal.

“I thought that, you know, that was the only way to survive, right?”

It was, you know, it wasn't like the idea of having a job while being trans was not possible.

You know, being a housewife, you know, and having a house when that takes care of you, it wasn't possible because like anybody, you know, you should all the men that I dated at the time, where they didn't meet under these extreme shaming, you know, clouds were like, they used to say that they were my boyfriend, just in between, you know, for walls in a room, but nobody will hold my hand in the streets, you know.

“So it was like, hey, you know, all these guys want to have sex with me, nobody wants to be my boyfriend, so I may as well just get some money out of it, you know, so, and survive.”

So it was more like organically came with the idea of being trans, the idea of being a sex worker, so it was like, you know, it is for me, it was like, this is what the life of a trans person is, and I am trans, and this is what I have to do. It was also a lot of, um, uh, reaffirmation with sex work, um, you know, when you have like all these, the rest of the world telling you that, you know, that you are wrong, that you are a nerve of a nation, that, uh, you know, your body is, uh, mistake, uh, and at the same time, you have all these people vain for your body and for your time, so it was, it was a very reaffirmant.

How was the money? Um, the money was good. Um, I work a lot, you know, I, um, I, I, I can make this a money in the streets enough to survive, uh, but not enough to, um, go ahead with certain, uh, surgeries that I wanted, uh, you know, money was enough to parent and to eat, um, but I wasn't making money, uh, my transition was going where I wanted to go, um, my life was going where I wanted to go, and, um, interactions with police, uh, and, um, overall, you know, really, um, really, really bad experiences.

Six work was so heavily police in Argentina, uh, a group of trans women from the city that I'm from, where, even, a reparations pension for all the suffering that the law enforcement made them go through. I hope that gives you an idea of what kind of oppression we were going through at the time. It is like, you know, trans women receiving a reparations pension. That's how back the government feels about the treatment that they gave us.

being humiliated. So, you know, I do anything not to be arrested. I do anything, basically anything not to be arrested. When Cecilia was growing up in Argentina, trans people could be arrested for just walking down the street. And she got older, she moved around, trying to find a place where she felt safe and could do her job. And I guess, uh, neighbors started calling the police because I was around. And, uh, I, you know, for a moment, I thought, like, you know, I found a place where I can just do what I do without being, um,

bothered. And, um, you know, the police started stopping me. And, um, they, um,

sexually, I thought I was sexually assaulted by two officers. And, um, and I said, like, you know, it's never, it's never going to be a place where I can do what I do.

It not have to go through these things. Um, it was like this sense of, like, it's not a safe place for me in this anywhere in this city. And, uh, I am just gonna die here. Um, so I thought, like, you know, I have to do something with my life now.

“And that was, you know, when the idea of living Argentina, uh, trying to build a future came about. And that's how I came to Miami.”

Did you think it would be easier to be a sex worker in America? Oh, I thought like, I thought it was going to be people out there for waiting for me, offering me jobs. That was my idea of the United States. I thought like, were people waving an American flag and saying, like, welcome. And offering me other jobs. So I didn't even have to do sex working anymore. And that wasn't the case, uh, uh, I have to say that was not the case. We'll be right back.

Thanks to Squarespace for their support.

Making a website can be intimidating, especially because it's often the first thing people see about your business.

“If you want to build a website that makes a great first impression on people, you don't need years of coding experience. You just need Squarespace.”

It's the all-in-one website platform made to help you stand out online. Squarespace has the tools you need to make your website look exactly how you want it to look. So your services and get paid no matter what business you're in. You can choose from a library of templates designed by professionals, or if you don't want to scroll through all the template options, Squarespace's blueprint AI can build a website for you. In just a couple of minutes based on a few prompts, it'll pull from different templates to create the website you need.

Go to squarespace.com/criminal for a free trial when you're ready to launch use the offer code criminal to save 10% of your first purchase of a website or domain.

Support for criminal comes from growth therapy. Working on your mental health can be a long process, and it all starts with finding the right therapist. Growth therapy makes it easy and fast to find the right person. They can connect you as someone from a network of thousands of independent license therapists across the US.

“You can search about what matters to, like insurance coverage, the therapist specialty identity or availability,”

and you can get started with your first session in just two days. You can cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments, and you just pay per session. Whatever challenges you're facing, growth therapy is here to help. Grow excepts over 100 insurance plans, session to average about $21 with insurance, and some pay is a little zero depending on their plan. You can go to growtherb.com/criminal today to get started.

That's growtherp.com/criminal. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

She looked for a job in a hair salon, but she didn't have a license and she was undocumented.

This was in 2000. She was 27. So, you know, whatever got better in terms of maybe insurance in the United States, got worse in terms of being undocumented.

“And of course, the only thing that I knew how to do was sex work besides here, and that's what I think.”

Her plan was to work for three months in the United States, make as much money as possible, and then fly home to Argentina just before her visa expired. But four days before her flight home, Cecilia was arrested. I got arrested on Washington Avenue in Miami. And I remember, you know, I remember the girls, the other girls taught me like certain tricks that they're not even through.

It's just, you know, things that you do and say, you know, if you touch the client, if it's a police officer,

it's not supposed to let you touch him. It's totally bullshit. I, you know, I touch, I even had oral sex with police officers. And after we had oral sex, they arrested me. You know, if you ask them, if they're police officers, they have to tell you if they're police officers.

So, you know, I did my whole, like, you know, list of things to make sure that this guy who stopped me in a taxi in a yellow taxi was in a police officer. He was the passenger in the taxi.

“So I went in the taxi and I said, "Are you a police officer?"”

And he said, like, "No, I'm not." And then I touch him and he allowed me to touch him. And so I said, "Well, he's not a police officer." And he said, "How much is, you know, for a day?" So I told him how much it was.

He says, "Do you have another friend that you can bring with us?" And I said, "No, no, my friends are in the street right now." And then, he stopped the taxi and we got out of the taxi. And the taxi driver came out of the taxi tour. And I thought that that was weird.

And they arrested me. And I said, "But you told me that you're not a police officer."

“And he said, "I'm not a police officer."”

The taxi driver is. And I got arrested and I went to the prison, I guess. And of course, they put me there with the men. I saw the judge in the judge Lemiko with them. I needed to surrender my passport.

So I was not able to take my fly. And at that point, I overstayed my visa. So I made a decision to just stay here in the United States and fully as an undocumented person. And I'm going to fully dedicate myself to sex work.

And that's what I did. And I kind of stopped working in this street mostly. And I focused on ads. I had ads in the paper. I had ads in a special magazine in Miami called "Unicking Counters."

Really funny. I mean, "Unique and Counters." And I put pictures there. And your phone number, people who call you. And then I found the internet.

And I found the internet. And the money started being good. And I had my first breast implants. And I had a couple of facial surgeries. I had laser, I had laser in my face.

And I was like, "No, I've been facial on air."

I was like, "I'm an amazing moment in my life."

So I started being happy. I started making relationships here. I had friends. So it was hard. It was hard.

So I wanted to stay here.

It was a beautiful community.

“All my friends that were doing sex work with me at the same time.”

They were really good people. They were helping each other or the time. We were supporting each other. We were in constant communication. This number is going to call you.

Don't answer. It's a waste of time.

This guy is going to try to come and see you.

Don't see him because he's violent. So we had a network where we were all co-workers, I guess. And friends, when we spent time. And we cooked together. It was like really nice.

It was times where I said, "This is too much." But it was also good times with community.

“And how did life get better when you could start getting your clients online?”

So that you weren't out on the streets. But rather, get home. For me, it was like, "Oh, this is great." I just can be home. I can be making my own meals.

And if I have a client coming, I just stop and do my client. And then eat the food that I cooked myself. Things are different. When you're home, you're in your place. Things are yours.

So for me, it was better.

Again, I was always worried that a police officer could come and arrest me.

It was very common in South Beach. That police would make themselves look like clients in the front saying that they were clients. And they would come and arrest you. Sometimes I would be looking at the window to see who my client was. Sometimes I would just think, "Oh, this guy looks like a police officer."

And every time I would see a client with a shave head, I had to see that with police officers. I guess. So I would never see them. You know, he never opened the door. She says the internet helped a lot.

Cecilia could now look someone up before deciding whether to meet them. And sex workers in Miami could communicate on forums and warn each other about police, violent clients, or clients that wouldn't pay. They would I declients by phone number in case they'd given a fake name. So it was great, you know, life was a much better.

Of course, sort of that ended with System Foster. System Foster, which stands for the Stop Enabling Sex Traffickers Act, and the Fight Online Sex Trafficking Act, are a set of bills that were signed into law in 2018. Under the law, website publishers, including sites like Craigslist, would be responsible if anyone posts ads for sex work on their platforms.

The bill of supporters framed this as an important way to curb sex trafficking online. Critics argue that it makes no distinction between victims of sex trafficking and consensual sex workers. One of the immediate effects of the law was that those sites that sex workers used to find clients and communicate with each other started shutting down.

“Are sex workers less safe without these types of sites?”

Of course, you know, we don't have the opportunity to, you know, look in the, you know, in our forums and like to see if, you know, the clients that are coming to see us are, you know, not good, you know, and also like where, you know, many of us are not able to advertise. You know, people had to go back to the streets, you know, people that were not used to the streets anymore, you know, and also like, you know,

the fact that it was more, more sex workers in the streets, it gave clients a certain level of leverage, right?

they clients, you know, that they wouldn't otherwise just because, you know, they needed to work.

So, uh, system foster, you know, and shutting down the website, you know, was terrible for the sex workers coming in. It's really terrible, really, really terrible. It seems like not many people understand just how common sex work is. Do you think that's right?

Absolutely. We'll be right back. Support for criminal comes from honey love. The best items of clothing are the ones you don't even notice, you're wearing.

“If you're looking for a new bra that does its job well, then you should check out honey love.”

They offer a range of great bras, shapewear, and other items made with a focus on support, comfort and quality.

Like they're crossover bra. It's made without underwire and it doesn't dig in or pinch uncomfortably. It has a smoothing back panel that gets rid of the usual bunching or raised lines that some bras create under your clothes. Their products come in a wide range of sizes made for every shape in every body. Treat yourself to most advanced bras and shapewear on the market.

User exclusive length to save 20% of honey love at honeylove.com/criminal. That's honeylove.com/criminal. After you check out, the last you where you heard about them. And you can support our show and tell them we sent you.

Experience the new standard in comfort and support with honey love.

“If you want to help them, you don't want to help them. But you can support them.”

You can support them. But they can't help you. If you want to help them, you can support them. If you want to help them, you can support them. You can support them.

And if you want to help them, you can support them. After living in Miami for five years, Cecilia started getting threats that she reported to the police as an undocumented immigrant. So she moved to New York. I used to live on Mod Street and me and a friend of mine.

You know, how the apartments arrived across the whole. And police went once. And they righted her apartment and arrested her. And they were knocking on my door and knocking on my door. And I just didn't open.

I was terrified. And you know, and I looked through the people in the house. You know, so how they were taking her. And they were really, they really wanted me to. And I just didn't open.

Nobody should have to work. Or do what they do for living with this terrible fear of being arrested. Or the time. Are there fewer clients now? I couldn't tell you.

I haven't been actively working for a couple of years now. But you know, I am in touch with most of my friends. And like, you know, it is a lot of consensual sex. Now with days and forums like Grinder, Tinder and all of that. So I know it's that, you know, it's less clients because it's more opportunities to have sex.

It's conceptual sex for free. But of course, that is not regulated. There's no criminalized, right? But once you exchange money for sex, you are criminal. So, you know, when you play football, you are selling your body for money, right?

Just in a way that, you know, you're selling the strength of your body to catch a ball, right? It's nothing different, right? If you know how to cook, you become a chef.

“I know how to have sex. So that's why I became a sex worker.”

So I think that because of the idea of sex, it has been painted as something that is sinful and not moral.

How much of sex work is talking, making people feel good about themselves and not actually allowed? A lot of sex work is a lot of therapy.

I always said that, you know, I should have a social work degree because I have council and listen to an incredible amount of people, you know,

who, you know, hire me through sex work and in reality, sex was the least that we did in our encounters. I, you know, I encounter all kinds of people, you know, with some of them was also a lot of sex, you know,

“but with most of them was just that human connection, right? People have need to be connected and to feel comfortable about who they are, you know?”

So it is a lot about the connection and sometimes it's about sex too.

Cecilia now lives in Queens. She was granted asylum in 2011. She plans to apply for citizenship next year. And I have a very, I don't know what's normal, but in my idea of normality, I have a very normal life, I have a partner, he's wonderful and I love him very much.

“We, we get up at seven, I make some breakfast or coffee and he goes to work and I get ready and I start with my work.”

And then what I do is advocacy and then I do all kinds of, you know, after work activities and I come back home, tire and have dinner with my partner and go to sleep. So that's my life, that's my life nowadays, you know, as another kind of busy. Today she's active in efforts to decriminalize sex work in New York. She runs a policy reform organization called Trans Equity and she leads a support group for undocumented transletinas.

“What do you want to say now to that little girl thinking that she was an alien, seeing all that you've seen now and where you are in your life? What would you say?”

I think that we are all aliens until we find our communities. I think some of us find our community with our own family and some of us don't. So for those that don't find their own community with their own families, it is a family out there and you just have to look for them. And when you find them, you will find your family and you will find your planet somehow where you don't feel like an extraterrestrial. So it is a heart, but beautiful journey, but the reward of finding your community is wonderful.

We first released this episode in 2019.

Cecilia Gentile became a U.S. citizen a few years after we spoke in 2022. She died on February 6th, 2024. Over 1,000 people attended her funeral. Criminal is created by Lauren Spore and me, Nadia Wilson is our senior producer, Katie Bishop is our supervising producer, our producers are Susanna Robertson, Jacky Cigrico, Lily Clark, Lena Celsin, and Megan Canane. This episode was originally mixed by Rob Byers. Our show is mixed in engineered by Veronica Seminetti.

And you can sign up for our newsletter at this iscriminal.com/newsletter.

“We hope you'll consider supporting our work by joining our membership program, Criminal Plus.”

You can listen to Criminal. This is love and February's a mystery without any ads. Plus you'll get bonus episodes.

These are special episodes with me and Criminal Co. Creator Lauren Spore talking about everything from how we make our episodes to the crime stories that caught our attention that week to things we've been enjoying lately.

“To learn more, go to patreon.com/criminal.”

We're on Facebook at this iscriminal, an Instagram and TikTok at Criminal_Podcast.

We're also on YouTube at YouTube.com/criminalpodcast.

“Criminal is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.”

Discover more great shows at podcast.voxmedia.com. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal.