The Experts

Guaranteed Human. When a group of women discover that they've all dated the same prolific con artist. They take matters into their own hands. I vowed. I will be his last target.

He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what each serves.

We always say that trust your girlfriends.

Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the "I Heart" radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. In 2023, Bachelor Star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax.

“You doctor this particular test twice in silence, correct?”

I doctor the test once. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Break a recipe and I can manage any. My mind was blown.

I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura, Scott State Police.

As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences.

Listen to Love Trap podcast on the "I Heart Radio" app. Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Blood trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors. Where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence.

I've seen something in the road. I guess the laid dog was sleeping then. Then there was a full of blood. Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers.

“Season two is out now with new episodes every Thursday.”

Listen on the "I Heart Radio" app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Readers, Katie's finalists, publicists.

We have an incredible new episode this week for you guys.

We have our girl Hilary Dough in here and we can't wait for you to hear this episode. They put on Lizzy McGuire to a video on demand. This guy's 2A app. 2A app is Lizzy McGuire. And I'm wild.

Wild about you. It was like a first closet moment for me. I was like, I don't feel like she's hot. The rest of them. No, no, no.

I was like, she's beautiful. I'm appreciating her in a different way than these boys are. I'm not like, listen to "Losco Tree" stuff. I'm the "I Heart Radio" app. Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Before we begin, please be aware. This episode contains discussions around infant deaths and other difficult topics. Please take care while listening. Now, you all presumably know the background of the Lucy let be issue. The miscarriage is I view it.

Member of Parliament David Davis is sitting behind a rectangular table. Beside him to his right is Lucy Letbe's current lawyer, Mark McDonald. To his left, one of the world's most distinguished neonatal experts. And today, what we're here to do is to present a report, which is the idea, the genesis, the creation of Dr. Xu Lee, who's sitting next to me.

In front of the panel, waiting anxiously to hear this report, are a gaggle of media, newspapers, TV broadcasters, and in keeping with the times a number of podcasters. All their microphones and cameras squarely focused on the group of people sitting before them. Well, thank you, sir David.

My name is Julie, and I'm here to share with you the findings of the international expert panel on the Lucy Letbe case. But before I start, I'd like to share the synchities and condolences of members of the international expert panel with families of the affected infants. We understand their stress and their anguish, and our work is not meant to cause more distress. Rather, it is meant to give them comfort and assurance in knowing the truth about what really happened. We know that they want to know the truth, and that is why we are here to tell the truth.

The truth.

“When it comes to Lucy Letbe, the truth is not an easy place to land.”

There are some who are sure they know. The court for one has sent her away for the rest of her life. In the mind of the judge, the jury, and the prosecutor, she is one of the worst serial killers in UK history. But as more and more information beyond what the juries have heard comes out, more and more people are starting to wonder if the truth might actually be one of a wrongful conviction.

There is overwhelming evidence that the conviction is unsafe.

If no crime was committed, that means that a 34-year-old woman is currently sitting in prison for the rest of her life for a crime that just never happened.

I'm Amanda Knox, and from Vespucci and I Heart Podcasts, this is doubt, the case of Lucy Letbe. Episode 9, The Experts. On the surface, Lucy has run out of options. Nearly every level available to her in the UK court system has turned down the opportunity to re-here her case. But Lucy's lawyer, Mark McDonald, is hopeful that the UK's criminal case review commission will consider a new review.

What I do know is that the CCRC are taking this very seriously. They've already got a team in place. They're ready to go.

They've watched this conference. I've made sure they've had a link to this. They've watched the presentation.

They've got this report. They're going to get the final report. That they've seen what you've all seen. I'm hoping they're going to take this very seriously and deal with it very quickly. And we will be back in the court of the film. The panel comprises 14 very experienced and well-known experts from highly prestigious institutions in six countries around the world.

Including Canada, United States of America, Japan, Germany, Sweden, and the United Kingdom. They include 10 neonatologists, one pediatric surgeon, one pediatric infectious disease specialist, one senior neonatal intensive canners, and one other pediatric specialist. These experts were not paid for their time. In fact, Dr. Shuli, a veteran neonatologist who lives in Canada paid for his own trip to the UK to be part of this press conference. I decided that it was necessary to do this even though there would be a cost to pay for me personally.

I also recognized that there was going to be a lot of pressure because this was such a high profile case. In the sense that there would be public backlash, there would be people on both sides, arguments, and I'll be open to attacks, etc.

“But if, in fact, this woman is innocent of the crimes that she's accused, I think you'll be all with it.”

And I'm prepared to pay that price. Now retired, Dr. Shuli spends his days farming on his spot of land in Alberta, Canada. When he talks about farming, it sounds like something he's been doing all his life. Last day was wheat. The year before there was Canola, and we're actually bringing cattle onto the farm this year. I enjoy being a farmer. I love to see things grow, just like I love to see my babies grow. But it's when the conversation turns to neonatology that you see his expertise really come alive.

Calm, warm and precise. He carries decades of knowledge with him, and when it comes to the Lucy let be case, he knows the details almost by heart.

I asked him how he first became involved.

I caught an email from lawyer and a UK asking me if I would look at a case.

“And I was busy during harvest, and I ignored it initially because how often does one get an email from a lawyer in the UK?”

But then two weeks later, after my harvest, it was there again. And so I decided to answer it our curiosity. And I realized that in fact, this was genuine. What a lawyer told me was that they had used a paper that had written in 1989 to convict her. And that stirred my attention because I don't normally do medical legal cases.

But in this case, because they used my paper as curious about what they actually said. So I agreed to look at the case without committing to actually participating in the process.

“You may remember earlier in this series, we heard how the prosecution's medical expert, Dr. Dowie Evans, relied on a research paper Dr. Lee published in 1989.”

In court, it was cited as evidence suggesting that unusual skin discoloration seen on some of the babies could indicate air embolism. For Dr. Lee, that was the moment this case stopped being distant news. If his research had been used to support that conclusion, he needed to understand exactly how. So they asked me to look specifically at the skin discoloration and whether the interpretation of the prosecution doctors were accurate. And when I looked at it, I realized that it wasn't because what they had interpreted wasn't what I wrote about.

And unfortunately, my testimony was disallowed.

Because in the British legal system, you can only present evidence at appeal that could not have been presented at the original trial. And at the original trial, since they did not call me, they lost their chance. And therefore, my evidence was inevitable. So, her age appeal was rejected and I was a little concerned because as far as I was concerned, the evidence that was used to convict on the air embolism and skin discoloration was inaccurate. So potentially this is an unsafe conviction.

With his evidence dismissed by the court, his work might have ended there, but it didn't sit easily with him.

“If the medical conclusions presented at trial were wrong in this one case, what about the others?”

Doctor Lee felt he had a responsibility to find out. On the one hand, I could be selfish and say, "Well, there's not my problem anymore, I did my part."

On the other hand, I felt compelled to do it because if, in fact, this was wrong.

A young woman would be in jail for the rest of her life without possibility of appeal of parole. Which means she gets a dying prison. That is a horrible consequence to contemplate. And I think, I think I would like humanity if I didn't find out whether or not that conviction based on the medical evidence was correct. I would do this only on condition that we would publish our results and make it public regardless of whether we felt she was innocent or guilty. I just wanted to get in the truth.

So, he agreed to look at the rest of the medical evidence in the case. But what that meant in practice was an enormous undertaking. So, for each case, because some of the cases were very long, and baby state is a hospital for months,

“is hundreds and hundreds of pages of material.”

And then hundreds and hundreds of pages of laboratory results, and medical charting in from binoculars in the unit and the heart rate blood pressure, all they can understand. So, it was a great deal of material. Dr. Lee knew this wasn't something one person should be reviewing alone. To get through the mountain of evidence and to do it properly, he turned to the panel we mentioned earlier,

bringing together those 14 medical experts from around the world to examine the case alongside him. And we not only had neonatologists, we also had one infectious disease expert, and we had a pediatric surgeon because some of the cases involved trauma. And so, we wanted to be sure that we covered all the basis of a multidisciplinary team, that had forensic experience, that had pathological experience, surgical obstetric and neonatal.

So, that was the team. The panel divided the work between them, assigning each baby's case to two experts to review independently. Each case was an assigned to two members of the team randomly. And they were asked to look at the cases independently without consulting each other initially. And we asked them to look at the medical records without referring to the prosecution witnesses or to the court transcripts.

Another is just take the chart and tell us what you think was the course of injury or death in this baby, so that they were biased by other opinions. Only after they had reached their own conclusions independently, where they asked to review the evidence presented at trial. They were then asked to look at the prosecution witnesses reports to see whether or not it would change their minds.

And if it did not, then they completed their report. Even though we divided up the work amount of 14 people, it still took us four months to get through all that material. It was a lot of work. Nobody paid us to do any of this, you know.

“I think it was Dr. Zawi Evans who said that we didn't a few minutes he had decided that one or the cases was murder.”

And I'm impressed that he was able to do that because we couldn't. In 2023, former Bachelor Star Clayton Eckard found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. This began a year's long court battle to prove the truth. You doctor this particular test twice in selling stress.

I doctor the test once. It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for. Some likes the greatest disinfectant. They would uncover a disturbing pattern.

Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg Olesby and Michael Marancini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is LoveTrap. Laura Scottsdale Police.

As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences.

Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at AmeriCorps County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges.

Listen to LoveTrap podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

“There's two golden rules that any man should live by.”

Rule one never mess with a country girl.

He plays stupid games, you get stupid prizes. And rule two never mess with her friends either. We always say that trust your girlfriends. I'm Anna Simfield. And in this new season of the girlfriends. Oh my god, this is the same man.

A group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist. I felt like I got hit by a truck. I thought how could this happen to me? The cops didn't seem to care. So they take matters into their own hands.

They said, oh hell no. I vowed. I will be his last target. He's going to get what he deserves.

“Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe.”

On the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Blood trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors. Where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence. I've seen something in the road.

I guess I'm late on it was a sleeping bed. Then there was a full of blood. Somebody somewhere, no shelter. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season two is out now with new episodes every Thursday.

Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On a recent episode of the podcast, Money and Wealth,

“with Jon Ho Bryant, I sit down with Tiffany the Budgeonista Alijay”

to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money. What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on well to the people when they're no longer here? We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth

starting with the mindset shifts too many of us were never ever taught.

Financial education is not always about like I'm going to get ripped. That's great. It's about creating an atmosphere for you to be able to take care of yourself and leave a strong financial legacy for your family. If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation is for you

to hear more. Listen to Money and Wealth with Jon Ho Bryant from the Black Effect Network on theite heart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. After months of work and with more than a dozen medical experts reviewing the evidence, the reports finally came back.

The panel compared their conclusions for each baby, but even then, there was still more work to do in verifying the conclusions. If the two reports on each baby are agreed with each other, then that was accepted as the final result.

If there was a disagreement between the two reports, then a third member was brought in

and then a consensus was achieved. We found that there was unanimous opinion that there was no male physicians. There was good reasons why each of the babies either die or suffered injury. There's a logical explanation for what happened to each baby. In other words, you don't have to invoke murder to understand why the baby died.

But by this point, there was no clear way to put those findings back before a court. So instead, along with MP David Davies and Lucy's current lawyer, Mark McDonald, the panel decided to make their conclusions public. A press conference was organized in London, and Dr. Lee traveled to the UK to present the report. When I went to the UK, there was an additional burden in that I was actually coming to the UK

where the majority of the opinion now was at that time, was that she was guilty. So therefore to step into the arena and say she is not. And here's why we think she is not, is a huge task. So it was unclear to me what the public reduction would be, but I felt that it needed to be done. In a room packed with journalists in London, Dr. Lee stepped up to present the panel's findings.

He began by laying out how the team had grouped the cases, placing the deaths and injuries into six medical categories. First, an amulism caused by injection of air into the intravenous system, to splinter of diaphragm caused by injection of air into the nasal gastric tube. Tree, dislodged nasal gastric, and Dr. Kilt, causing collapse for hypoglycemia caused by injection of insulin.

Dr. Lee did not go over every case the panel had examined.

“Mark McDonald's lawyer said, "Why don't we focus on the fatalities, because it's the most important cases?"”

Second, there were some cases that were, shall we say, very obvious in terms of the causes of death or egregious in terms of the accusations that we felt that they needed to be highlighted.

So those were the two conditions. The first case Dr. Lee brought up was baby A, or, as he called him, baby 1, citing the cause of death argued by the prosecution. Baby 1 died from injection of air into the intravenous line, causing an amulism. This case, in particular, had already drawn Dr. Lee's attention. It was the prosecution's conclusion in that death, and the way his research had been used to support it,

that had first led him to speak at the appeal. And so, on the day of the collapse, actually, baby A had two central catheters. And these are lines that are placed into the large veins for a venous access. Right? Now, normally, when you put in central catheters like this, we would infuse the lines together with anti-coagulants to prevent them from clotting.

“Because central lines are notorious for clotting and causing trombus.”

Right? A throbus is simply a blood clot that forms inside a blood vessel or medical line, blocking the normal flow of blood. Something Dr.'s work carefully to prevent in fragile newborns. Now, in baby A, the risk of trombosis was further increased because the mother had something called anti-phospholipid syndrome, which is a condition in which the immune system mistakenly creates antibodies that attack tissues in the mother's body,

and can trigger blood clots to form in the arteries and veins. You see, although baby A didn't have anti-phospholipid syndrome, antibodies from the mother can cross the placenta and enter the baby's bloodstream, increasing the risk of dangerous blood clots. In baby A's case, that risk may have been compounded by the fact that the catheter lines have been left in place without infusion for an extended period of time.

The lines were left and refused for four hours, clot forms very quickly.

“You don't need four hours of formal clot, right?”

It forms in minutes. And if you leave a line there for four hours, you're almost begging the trombus to form. On top of that, you're not anti-corrigulate the line and you're doing not infuse it. So, after four hours, you're going to get a trombus. I mean, there's no question about it.

And then after that, somebody started the infusion. And shortly, very shortly, after the infusion was started, the baby collapsed. According to Dr. Lee, on top of the risk factors already present, allowing blood to sit in an unmaintained catheter line creates the conditions for a clot to form.

Once the line is flushed or infusion restarts, that clot can break free.

And when the trombus breaks off, you can go to an actually supplying a critical structure

in a brain, for example, in a heart that causes sudden collapse and death. Dr. Lee also pointed to findings in the post-mortem that suggested a recent clotting event. Evidence he says is consistent with a thrombus traveling through the bloodstream shortly before death. But the detail that first drew him into this case, the one tied to his own research, was something else entirely.

The unusual skin discoloration seen on the baby. Now, that's this matter of this patchy skin discoloration. Because a lot of me was made about it during the trial, saying that these were very unusual skin discoloration. They were consistent with what I had written in 1989, and recently migrating and moving. And therefore, this was diagnostic of an emblistment.

Unfortunately, that's not correct. The only skin discoloration that is diagnostic of an emblistment is something called the Lee side. You heard that right. The Lee side, as in Dr. Xu Lee. The clinical sign was literally named after him. And in the case of baby A, it sits right at the center of the debate over what happened.

Dr. Lee first identified what would become known as the Lee sign in 1980.

After observing a dramatic and previously undocumented pattern of skin discoloration on a newborn. Basically, the arteries appear on the skin, and it's like a tree that fans up. And it starts proximally and it moves distally. So you can see like a Christmas tree lighting up on a duck baby. That discovery eventually led to the 1989 paper.

The paper Dr. Dowie Evans cited at trial.

The marks discussed in court were patchy.

“The Lee sign, he says, looks nothing like that.”

Nothing patchy about it all. This is very clear vessels. They can see the blood vessels very clearly. Superimposed on the duck by ground. So at the press conference, Dr. Lee in no uncertain terms revealed that Dr. Evans had misunderstood his research. The prosecution in part based their allegation on the paper that I had written in 1989.

Where I described 57 cases that about 10% of them has skin discoloration of different kinds. At that time, I did not distinguish between arterial and venous anvilism. And in this particular case, the allegation is that she injected air into the venous system into the veins. And in the new paper that I had published in December of 2024 in the American Journal of Paranatology,

“we actually separated the cases with arterial venous anvilism from the cases with venous anvilism.”

And what we found was that in the cases where air was injected into the veins, there were no cases of patchy skin discoloration ever described in the literature. So the notion that these babies can be diagnosed with anvilism because they collapse and had these skin discoloration has no evidence in fact. All right? None of this actually has ever been described.

If this is true, you'd be the first case ever described, but it's never been.

We of course wanted to ask Dr. Evans about this and so much more, but he has repeatedly turned down our requests for an interview. In other media, we know that Dr. Evans is aware of Dr. Lee's response. In fact, in one documentary called Conviction, we can see Dr. Evans watching the press conference. Despite the author of the papers explaining the issues with Dr. Evans' diagnosis,

Dr. Evans refuses to accept that he is wrong. Now, in court, prosecutors pointed to one clear pattern in the collapses that Lucy let be happened to be on shift. But when Dr. Lee looked at the cases, he noticed another pattern, one that had received far less attention. Many of the babies involved weren't isolated cases at all. They were part of multiple births.

Now, baby A had a twin called baby B.

Now, this twin suffered the same thing in the sense that the baby also had sudden collapse within the first two days of life,

but the baby survived, right? So there was no pathology, et cetera. But there are common things. Number one, the baby had a similar catheter. Number two, they had the same mother.

“As I said earlier, the mother has anti-fossilipid syndrome. And so I think that there's a commonality why these multiple babies,”

you know, twins, triplets had problems, because they had a similar pathology or something underlying it in other words. That in fact, created the conditions for these things to happen. And so it happened to one baby, it was more likely actually to happen to another, because it's the same condition as affecting the babies. So after laying out the medical evidence surrounding baby A, the obvious question followed, if not air embolism, then what actually caused the baby's sudden collapse?

Dr. Lee brings up a few possibilities from the high risk of thrombosis, as we heard earlier, to malpractice. A post-mortem on the baby showed that there was, in fact, a thrombic event, and an IV had been inserted into the baby in order to infuse medicine. But that IV had penetrated the vein and had come out into the tissues. And so the infusion was not going into the circulation, was going into tissues.

And so the air was getting swollen, because the infusion was coming out. And so because of this, they removed the IV and replaced it with an unbalical venous catheter. But the first insertion was malpositions, and so they had to replace it again.

Dr. Lee never says that he is sure how baby A died, but he is sure it wasn't from an air embolism.

But baby A was not the only baby that this cause of death was given to. It was especially concerning, because in many of these babies, Dr. Evans contented that the babies was stable, and then they suddenly collapsed and died. And therefore he can be nothing but an embolism. Because the baby was stable, they were doing well, so why did they collapse and die?

These were very sick babies who had certain conditions, and not only that, in many of these babies, they were actually getting worse.

“Every day there was evidence, medical and laboratory evidence that these babies were actually deteriorating,”

and they were not picked up, right, and not treated. In some cases, they had pneumonia or infection or hemorrhage from a particular lesion, etc. And they were just not picked up, right? So that is very concerning to us, that the experts in this case did not pick up on the fact that these babies had preexisting conditions, and they were worsening, and who were actually in danger of dying because of these conditions,

and not because they were stable, they were not stable. The important part of this report isn't that the panel members were able to determine 100% why these babies died.

We may never have definitive answers to those questions.

What is important is that these experts offered a plausible explanation other than murder.

“Had the jury in Lucy's first trial been able to hear another possibility, would they had been able to find her guilty?”

Or would the weight of reasonable doubt have changed things? For more than an hour, Dr. Lee went on to discuss a number of the other cases they looked at. We found that the medical histories were incomplete. It was a failure to consider the obstetric history. There was this regard for surveillance warnings about bacterial colonization. There was missed diagnosis of diseases in these babies.

They were caring for babies that were probably beyond their expected ability or designated level of care.

They were unsaved delays in diagnosis and treatment of acutely ill patients.

There were poor skills at resuscitation and intubation. There was poor supervision of junior doctors in procedures like intubation. There were poor skills in basic medical procedures like insertion of chest tubes. There was lack of understanding about basic things like respiratory physiology and how to mechanically ventilate the baby. There was poor management of common neonatal conditions like hypoglycemia.

There was lack of knowledge about commonly used equipment in the NICU. There was failure to protect infants who were at risk for example hemophilia from trauma during intubation. There was a lack of teamwork and trust between the health professions. There were also statements given by many witnesses which point to serious results in infrastructure deficiencies. And these specific constants that were expressed by individuals include in adequate numbers of appropriately trained personnel in the unit.

Like of training for assigned nursing roles in adequate staffing and workload overload. Poor plumbing and drainage resulting in the need for intensive cleaning in the unit. There was poor environmental temperature control in the facility. There was difficulty in finding the doctor when the need arose. Some high risk infants had been born and cared for at higher level institutions,

but were born and cared for in this hospital. And there were delays in transfer or sick infants to higher level facilities when the need arose. So these are not things that are being invented. These are statements given by people who work in the unit. Our conclusions of this panel therefore was that there was no medical evidence to support male physicians,

causing death or injury in any of the 17 cases in the trial. In summary, ladies and gentlemen, we did not find any murders. In all cases, death or injury were due to natural causes or just bad medical care. Lucy was charged with seven murders and seven attempted murders. In our opinion, the medical opinion, the medical evidence doesn't support murder in any of these babies.

It was a striking moment after months of analysis. The panel had delivered a clear conclusion. One that challenged the central claim of the prosecution's case. The room was extremely attentive and one of the reporters set to me afterwards you could hear a pin drop.

“I think it was a moment of clarity for many people who saw all along that she was guilty.”

And suddenly, a lot of reporters and other people in the room were saying, "Wait a minute. Maybe we got it wrong." In 2023, former Bachelor Star Clayton Eckard found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth. Doctor, this particular test twice in silence, correct?

It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case.

“I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for.”

Some like the greatest disinfectant. They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg Olesby and I could manage any. My mind was blown.

I'm Stephanie Young. This is LoveTrap. Laura, Scott Stelpoise. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news out of Maricopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until Justice has served in Arizona. Listen to LoveTrap podcast on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

There's two golden rules that any man should live by.

Rule one, never mess with a country girl.

He plays stupid games, you get stupid prizes.

“And rule two, never mess with her friends either.”

We always say that trust your girlfriends. I'm Anison Field, and in this new season of the girlfriends. Oh my god, this is the same man. A group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist. I felt like I got hit by a truck.

I thought how could this happen to me? The cops didn't seem to care. So they take matters into their own hands. They said, "Oh hell no. I vowed. I will be his last target." He's going to get what he deserves.

Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the I-Hart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Blood trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors.

“Where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce,”

and the truth gets buried under brush and silence. I've seen something in the road. I guess I've lived on with a sleeping bag that there was a full of blood. Somebody somewhere, no shelter. I'm Jordan Sillers.

Season two is out now with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On a recent episode of the podcast, Money and Welp, with John Ho Bryant, I sit down with Tiffany the Budgeonista Lijay to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money.

What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on well to the people when they no longer hear? We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth

starting with the mindset shifts too many of us were never ever taught.

Financial education is not always about, like, I'm going to get ripped. That's great. It's about creating an atmosphere for you to be able to take care of yourself and leave a strong financial legacy for your family. If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation is for you to hear more.

Listen to Money and Welp with John Ho Bryant from the Black Effect network All on theite hard radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Following Dr. Lee's comments, the panel is opened for the media to ask their questions. In a country where the story of Lucy Letby and her sensational crimes have dominated the news cycle for years, this news conference was well attended.

I'll start. I'll go right across from right to left, sir. Many of the questions asked concerned Dr. Dawi Evans, especially prescient considering he used Dr. Lee's research to help convict Letby. When he comes to Dr. Evans' testimony and his opinions, I would ask you to ask cheek questions.

First of all, the first question would be, if our panel found so many problems with the medical care provided by this team at this hospital,

how is it that Dr. Evans found none? The second question I would ask is this, he seemed to be rather selective in his use of information. So, if he wasn't selective, if all the information was used, in fact, he would come to a very different conclusion than what he came to. So, was he just call us or was it deliberate?

The next question I would ask is, even when there's obvious cause of death, why do he go around looking for malfeasance? Dr. Lee wasn't the first to raise questions about Dr. Evans. Many people were concerned with the retired pediatricians' lack of expertise, the speed in which he found wrongdoing, the quality of his assessments.

Amazingly, some of those concerns were actually raised during Lucy Letby's first trial by another judge. Three months into the murder trial, Letby's defense team applied for evidence from Dawi Evans to be excluded. Due to an adverse judgment from a judge in a previous case.

How Lord Justice Jackson of the Court of Appeal took the extraordinary step of writing

to Lucy's trial judge to warn him about Dr. Evans. Justice Jackson wanted Judge Goss to know that in another case, a report by Dr. Evans was, quote, "worthless and makes no effort to provide a balanced opinion." Close quotes. In an extraordinary, and so as I can see, unprecedented intervention, that very judge's law justice Jackson actually roaps the trial judge with his judgment on Dr. Evans attached,

clearly indicating how unsuitable Evans was.

That warning seemed to fall on death ears.

“I think it's quite clear with hindsight that there were holes throughout this entire process,”

and it holds the two flawed set of evidence and an incomplete set of evidence being presented to the jury, and therefore calls into a question whether the jury was sufficiently well informed to enable them to reach a reliable verdict. Dr. Nina Modi was one of the members of Dr. Xu Lee's expert panel. Professor Nina Modi is one of the most senior neonatologists here in the UK. She is the professor of Neonatal Medicine and Vice Dean International at Imperial College London.

Honorary consultant to the Chelsea and Westminster NHS Foundation Trust and President of the European Association of Parenting Neonatal Medicine and a former president of the Royal College of Pediatrics and Child Health here.

“One of the big questions she has is how the court system in the UK defines an expert.”

So the law looks at your qualifications, but it doesn't necessarily address the issue in how experienced you are and how recent your experiences. So, you know, I am qualified in pediatrics, but I'm a neonatologist. I haven't worked in big children's pediatrics for a very, very, very long time. It would be even though my qualifications state I am a pediatrician, it would be completely inappropriate for me to be commenting on a pediatric case because I'm not experienced.

Dr. Modi believes that Dr. Evans' lack of experience impacted the investigation into Lucy Ledby right from the start. There were then flaws in the policing investigation, for example, not letting the obstetric notes not speak into obstetricians. That was then amplified by what happened in court with the prosecution. None of the prosecution's expert witnesses joined attention to some obvious features in fact. That were present in medical notes, and which would have led to different conclusions regarding causes of the baby's deaths.

And then there was failure on the part of the defense to mount an adequate challenge to the prosecution. Tragedies like this, of course, are going to be emotional. But a court to my best knowledge should not be a place where emotional holds sway, but where facts and evidence holds sway.

“And that's, I think, even more of a pertinent point when one considers the anguish of these families who have been told,”

"We don't know what's caused your baby's death to me. Do know what's caused your baby's death to again actually." A lot of people saying, "We don't think that the rights, conclusions have been reached." I mean, what an agonising roller coaster that must be for them. What's also emotional and deeply worrying is the possibility of a miscarriage of justice on this scale. Can we actually trust the legal process? And as my nursing colleagues fear, you know, will I be next? Prior to the press conference, the headlines on the papers in relation to, you see, let these childhood all been along the lines of,

Here is the worst serial killer thing Kate has ever seen, here isn't evil person. But after that press conference, there were more and more and more questions that seem to be raised in various parts of the press. So, with hindsight, it does look as though that press conference changed the perception of the public. It's hard to pinpoint the moment that a narrative shifts. It happens in stages.

My family started to notice a shift in the American media about half way through my first trial.

TV pundits and journalists were finally asking, "Where's all this evidence we were promised?"

Lucy let me was convicted of murdering seven infants and attempting to murder seven more.

“She received multiple concurrent full-life sentences.”

The case horrified the nation, it seemed clear, a nurse had turned into a serial killer. Now, I initially accepted the tabloid characterization of let me as an evil monster. As we've heard throughout the series, that characterization of Lucy let me, it ran deep. Years of blaring headlines, guilty verdicts and denied appeals reinforced that image,

and press blackouts prevented competing narratives from taking hold.

But slowly, as journalists and experts and politicians like David Davis began to ask critical questions, the story started to change.

“But then I was approached by many experts, leading statisticians, neonatal specialists, forensic scientists,”

people who are more knowledgeable than the purported experts whose evidence convicted let me. Though all concern but what they perceived as false analyses and diagnoses used to persuade a lay jury to convicted let me. Experts like Jane Hutton. You may recall Jane from earlier in the podcast. Her experience with the Cheshire Police during their investigation cemented the idea that detectives were looking for evidence that fit their theory.

You did stop by assuming that this murder, when you have no evidence. Professor Hutton had been approached by the Cheshire Police before Lucy let me was arrested.

“To help legitimize the infamous ledger that showed Lucy let me was in the hospital and on duty for every single death.”

Now from the start of the case, Cheshire Police picked up on the doctor's statistical argument supposedly pointing to let me. In April 2018, an officer on the investigation approached the leading statistician Professor Jane Hutton and asked it to put a figure on the likelihood of a nurse being on duty, Of course, this is a false proposition. There's let me was not on duty for anything like all the deaths, but that was glossed over at the trial. We have had all possible vaccinations for any increase in babies collapsing, including medical conditions and prematureity, as well as the broader performance of the unit.

You think that would be common sense, really. Cheshire Police then signed a consultancy agreement with Professor Hutton. But then, in 2021, after let be have been charged, the police wrote an email to Professor Hutton and I quoted in terms. We have had a further meeting this afternoon where we have informed the prosecutors we were looking into the validity of the statistical evidence in this case. The prosecutor has instructed, instructed, as not to pursue this avenue any further at present.

Now this appears to be in direct contravention of the Code for Crown Prosecutors specifically part three decimal three of the Code, prosecutors cannot direct the police or any other investigators.

Again, the jury was never informed of Professor Hutton's explicit advice to the police that their statistical approach was flawed.

The jury and Lucy's trial were never told about any of this. What they saw was a chart that had Lucy on shift for every death. A chart that many experts say was deeply flawed, not only was it based on bad statistics, firstly in the fact that they did not include all the staff that were working, but also there were other deaths on that ward when Lucy was not on shift.

None of these were represented on that chart. This is actually a known logical error called the Texas Sharp Shooter Fallacy, a man fires a hundred bullets at the side of a barn. Then he walks up and draws a bull's eye around the tightest cluster and says, "See, look how accurate I am."

But despite those flaws, David Davis says it became very powerful evidence.

Evidence that Dr. Shoe Lee believes has led to a wrongful conviction and an innocent woman in prison for a crime she didn't commit.

Can you just imagine yourself in her shoes if she was innocent and in jail and told that she's going to stay there under she dies?

“That would be a terrible terrible injustice.”

I cannot imagine how anyone could survive that. Next time on doubt, the case of Lucy let me. It ruptured like my sense of identity. I knew that I wasn't responsible for hurting a child, but I'm bad because this is happening. And I have to go away and accept this somehow.

This turns out to be wrong. Every single level of the British establishment will be torn to shreds. Lucy let me rule before you. This conviction will be overturned. The only question is what?

Doubt. The case of Lucy let me is brought to you by the spooky, I-Heart Podcasts and Knox Robinson Productions. I've been your host Amanda Knox.

“This episode was written by Kathleen Goldhardt and Natalia Rodriguez.”

Senior producer is Natalia Rodriguez. The co-producer was Lucy Ditchman. The assistant producer was Ami Gil. The sound designer is Tom Bittel. Story editing by Kathleen Goldhardt.

Legal advice was provided by Jack Browning. The producers at I-Heart Podcasts are Chandler, Mays, and Katrina Norbel. The executive producers were Joe Meek, Amanda Knox, Christopher Robinson, Daniel Tarkin, and Johnny Galvin. Thank you for listening.

When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist. They take matters into their own hands. I vowed. I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this.

He's going to get what he deserves.

We always say that trust your girlfriends.

Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or whatever you get your podcast. In 2023, Bachelor Star Clayton Eckard was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax.

“You doctor this particular test twice in silence, correct?”

I doctor the test once. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg Olespiant, Michael Manchini. My mind was blown.

I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. Laura, Scott Snail Police.

As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences.

Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Blood Trails is a true crime podcast born in the outdoors. Where the terrain is unforgiving, the evidence is scarce, and the truth gets buried under brush and silence. I've seen something in the road, I guess.

Played on it was a sleeping bed, then there was a full of blood. Somebody somewhere, no shelter. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season two is out now, with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Readers, Katie's finalists, publicists.

We have an incredible immune episode this week for you guys.

We have our girl Hilary Dough in here, and we can't wait for you to hear this episode. They put on Lizzy McGuire to a video on demand this guy's poop. They have to do it. They have to do it. It's like a first closet moment for me, but I was like, I don't feel like she's hot.

Like the rest of them. No, no, no, no, no, I was like, she's beautiful. I'm appreciating her in a different way than these boys are. I'm not like, listen to Love School's Readers, I'm the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or whatever you get your podcasts. This isn't "I Heart Podcast."

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