The Prosecution

Her husband Mike was on his laptop.

“What was on his screen would change Saskia's life forever?”

I said I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing, and immediately the mask came off. You're supposed to be safe. That's your home. That's your husband. Listen to betrayal season five on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Nancy Glass, host of the burden of guilt season two podcasts. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpride became the victim of a random crime.

The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything.

I was a monster. Listen to burden of guilt season two on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton Nackard, in 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor.

“But here's the thing, Bachelor fans hated him.”

If I could press a button and rewind it all I would. That's when his life took a disturbing turn. A one night stand would end in a courtroom. The media is here. This case has gone viral. The dating contract.

A great a date mean, but I'm also suing you. This is unlike anything I've ever seen before. I'm Stephanie Young, listen to love trapped on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Ready for a different take on Formula One?

Look no further than no grip, a new podcast tackling the culture of motor racing's most coveted series. Join me, Lily Herman, as we dive into the under-explored pockets of F1, including the story of the woman who last participated in a Formula One race weekend, the recent uptick in F1 romance novels. And plenty of mishab scandals and sagas that have made Formula One a delightful,

decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to no grip on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When segregation was a law, one mysterious black club owner, Charlie Fitzgerald, had his own rules. Segregation in the day, integration at night. It was like seppin' on another world.

Was he a businessman, a criminal, a hero? Charlie wasn't an example, a pal, they had to crush him. Charlie's place, from Atlas Obsgera and visit Murdoch Beach. Listen to Charlie's place on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Before we begin, please be aware.

This episode contains discussions around infant deaths and other difficult topics. Please take care while listening. Excuse me, I'm not as competitive as this. I'm watching a short clip from Lucy Leppie's police interrogation. It's not long, but it's hard to watch.

What strikes me immediately is how small she seems in the room. She sets quietly, her shoulders rounded, her voice low. She answers questions carefully, not defensively, not forcefully, but with a kind of difference. As if she's already accepted that the people across the table control what happens next. I hesitate even to say that out loud because I know how dangerous interpretation can be.

And I also know that plenty of others convinced of Lucy Leppie's guilt have watched this video

“and seen a wolf in sheep's clothing. I was called that too, and I can still remember when my”

own body took on that posture. That sense of being trapped inside a process you don't fully understand where every word feels like it can make things worse. But yeah, I mean, watching interrogation videos is not fun for me. It was after a long hour of the evening nibbles in my, I were saying to sit, "They were telling me that I was guilty."

My own interrogation began much the way Lucy stood.

At first, I responded the same way, carefully, doodifully, trying to cooperate.

the situation would resolve itself. And then, as the pressure built, something shifted, they accused me of lying repeatedly. I became desperate to be believed,

but all I could do was repeat the truth, and that never seemed to satisfy them.

“I'm telling you what I know, why don't you believe me?”

I thought maybe it was my bad Italian that it was my fault they were getting so angry. As they gaslit me into doubting my own memories, as they threatened me with 30 years in prison, as they slapped me, I didn't know what was true or not anymore. A part of me even began to doubt myself. That's where my mind goes when I watch this video of Lucy.

That feeling that the people asking me questions aren't looking for the truth,

but for confirmation of a guilt they've already assumed. I spoke about Lucy's police interview with journalist Rachel Aviv, who covered the let-be case for the New Yorker. Rachel had spent several weeks reading the full transcript, and I wanted to know what she made of them. I could see sort of the disorientation of being accused of something that felt like a very alien concept and just not knowing how to talk about it.

It was like an incongruous thing in her life that actually had no language for events or

“comprehending how she had got there, and I think you could see her when she was in the police”

interview, I just think not quite getting it and sort of answering, but not really defending herself to sort of trying to be a good student, trying to be like an obedient nurse in a way, and also kind of giving the authorities the benefit of the doubt. She seemed like someone who really did trust authority, and it was almost as if she was saying like if they think I did something wrong, maybe I really did. I mean I deeply empathize with that,

that seemed to be the state that she was in a lot for the police interview. At least an even for the trial sort of like just a sense of grief that she was finding herself in that position. The interrogation room and the courtroom are very different spaces, but they are connected. The assumptions formed in one quietly set the terms of the other, and it was within those terms

that the prosecution presented its case. So when Lucy let me finally took the stand,

she wasn't starting from zero. She was stepping into a story that had already been written about her, and every pause, every careful answer, every attempt to explain herself was now filtered through that story, not in the interrogation room, but in front of 12 jurors. This episode is about how that story was told. I'm Amanda Knox, and from Vespucci, and I Heart Podcasts, this is doubt, the case of Lucy let me. Episode 4, The Prosecution.

In the middle of the night, Saskia woke in a haze. Her husband Mike was on his laptop. Was on his screen would change Saskia's life forever. I said I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing, and immediately the mask came off. You're supposed to be safe. That's your home.

“That's her husband. So keep this secret for so many years. He's like a seasoned pro.”

This is a story about the end of a marriage, but it's also the story of one woman who was done living in the dark. Your dangerous person who prays un vulnerable and trusting people, you're trying to make a living good. Losing the betrayal season 5 on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the burden of guilt season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous

lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpride became the victim of a random crime. He pulls the gun, tells me to lie down on the ground. He identified to mean Hudson as the perpetrator,

mistake in identity. The best lie is partial truth. For 22 years only two people knew the truth

until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to burden of guilt season 2 on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Joe Interestine, host of the spirit daughter podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and have a step into your most vibrant life. And I just sat down with a mini driver. The Irish traveler said when I was 16, you're going to have a terrible time with men.

Actor, storyteller, and unapologetic aquarium visionary. Aquarius is all about freedom loving and different perspectives. And I find a lot of people with strong placements and Aquarius, like our misunderstood, a son and Venus in Aquarius, in her seventh house, spark her unconventional approach to partnership. He really has taught me to embrace people sleeping in different rooms on different houses in different places, but just an embracing of the isness of it. If you're navigating

your own transformation or just want a chart-side view into how a leading artist integrates astrology, creativity, and real life, this episode is a must listen. Listen to this spirit daughter podcast, starting on February 24th on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your podcast.

“Why hasn't a woman formally participated in a Formula One race weekend in over a decade?”

Think about how many skills they have to develop at such a young age? What can we learn from all of the new F1 romance novels suddenly popping up every year? He's still smelled of podium champagne and expensive friction. And how did a 2023 event called Wagged Getting change the paddock forever? That day is just seared into my memory. I'm a culture writer and F1 expert Lily Herman,

and these are just a few of the questions I'm tackling on no-grip, a Formula One culture podcast that dives into the unworked plot pockets of the sport. Can each episode a different guest denial go deeper into the wacky miss-haps scandals and sagas, both on the track and far away from it, that have made F1 a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to no-grip on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Clayton Nackard, and in 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor.

Unfortunately, it didn't go according to plan. He became the first bachelor to ever have his final

rose rejected. The internet turned on him. If I could press a button and rewind it all I would.

“But what happened to Clayton after the show made even bigger headlines?”

It began as a one-night stand and ended in a courtroom with Clayton at the center of a very strange paternity scandal. The media is here. This case has gone viral. The dating contract. Agree to date me, but I'm also suing you. This is unlike anything I've ever seen before. I'm Stephanie Young. This is LoveTrap. This season, an epic battle of he said cheese said, and the search for accountability in a sea of lies. I'm done nothing to get rid of the f*ck!

Listen to LoveTrap on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's October 10th, 2022. Rain drizzles over Manchester Crown Court. Inside, the air is heavy.

For the first time, Lucy let bee steps into the court. After three and a half years of investigation,

thousands of interviews and mountains of evidence, police handed their case to the Crown prosecution service. Manchester Crown Court sits right in the city center, a working courthouse built for volume. It's not grand or ceremonial. It's practical, busy. The kind of place where life-changing things happen in rooms that look almost ordinary. Manchester Crown Court is a relatively

“modern building. I think it is slightly decaying, I have to say, long corridors, not particularly”

public friendly. That's Kim Pelling again. The journalist who is in the court at the time. It's probably 15 court rooms in the building. I was in court seven. For my perspective,

The public gallery is small. Seats are scarce. Everyone is packed into a room,

“waiting for a trial that comes nearly seven years after the first alarms were raised.”

The public gallery was divided into two sides, as you walk through the entrance, the left-hand side where I start. You may be able to have 15 at a push, so there was three, three, four seats available to the press, and that was it. Let this woman dad, John and Sue, on the right-hand side, and then on the other side were the families of the victims, and we were sat in front of them. On the front row of the public gallery, nearest to the dark. In the

well of the court was the judge, Mr. Justice Gus, and then in front of us were the various lawyers, including the Lee Council for the prosecution, Nick Johnson, King's Council,

“and Ben Mayers for the defense Ben Mayers King's Council, and then behind them, we had the jury for”

of 12. And then the defendant. A face, most people there knew only through photographs printed after her arrest. Frozen beneath headlines describing the charges she now faced. There's great anticipation ahead of like becoming into the start. You're going to see a in person, and of course it's a great curiosity as to her appearance and how she conveys herself.

For the first time, the jury of four men and eight women were able to assess the so-called monster

for themselves, but for him at least what he saw was. Nothing that stood out, so she wasn't particularly expressive. She looked tired and strained. It was hard to get her hand a lot from the start, really.

“She didn't fit the characterisation of so many cues of such monsters' crimes. Unfortunately,”

rather, Ben's reality is that it looked often just like anybody, any normal person you just passing the street without thinking. The clerk asks her name, Lucy let be confirms, and then the charges. Seven counts of murder, 15 counts of attempted murder, 22 times they're read out, and 22 times she replies, "Not guilty." The judge rules all 22 charges are to be tried together. That would mean, after both opening

statements, there would be 25 weeks of prosecution evidence before the defense could even counter. For U.S. listeners, you may be interested to know that in British courts, there are highly experienced senior lawyers who are given the title "King's Council," or often shortened to K.C., with English prosecuting lawyers being part of the Crown Prosecution Service, because theoretically, right at the top of the criminal judicial system in

Britain is the "King." So in every case, it's always the monarch versus the defendant.

And in this case, it was, "Rex," you know, like "King," versus Lucy let be. As I have already told you, a large quantity of paperwork from the hospital was recovered. What you're hearing now is an actor reading sections from the court transcript of Nick Johnson K.C., the prosecutor in the case, giving his opening statement. Prosecuters don't just present facts. They organize them. They decide what comes first,

what follows, and how quickly the picture takes shape. Evidence is paced, arranged, and built over time. So in that room, the prosecution aren't just presenting evidence. They're telling a story. In addition to the paperwork relating to some of the children, I have told you about and other children, they also found some other interesting items. Nick Johnson's opening ran for 94 pages. Three days in court.

Three days of evidence previewed, themes introduced, and a narrative laid carefully into place. And the image Johnson chose to end on, the one he left ringing in the courtroom,

There were some posted notes. You know what I mean? Those little yellow tabular notes with

“closely written words on them. Some of which included the names of her colleagues.”

On some of the notes were phrases like, "Why? How has this happened? What processes led to this current situation? What allegations have been made and by whom? Do they have written evidence to support their comments?" In her writings, she expressed frustration at the fact that she wasn't being allowed back onto the neonatal unit, and she wrote, "I haven't done anything wrong and they have no evidence so why have I had to hide away?" And her notes also expressed concern

for the long-term effects of what she feared was being alleged against her. There are also many

protestations of innocence, but I want to show you one note in particular. There's all sorts of material on this document, but just where that cross is now just to the right of that. It says, "I don't deserve to live. I killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough to take care of them. I am a horrible evil person." At the bottom, "I am evil. I did this." Well, ladies and gentlemen, that in a nutshell is your task in this case. You have to decide on the

“evidence whether she did do these things or any of them. It is important to remember that the”

prosecution brings this case, and therefore we, the prosecution, must prove it. And in order to prove it, we must make you sure. Thank you, my Lord. Here's Kim Pilling again. The post-it-notes were, yeah, I'd say they were a key moment in that I think it was purposefully done

to sort of say, "Ah, I'm finally to the jury." We've given you all this information as to why we think

she's the killer on the unit. And it's a little bit more. So that's a very striking visual piece of evidence for the jury. So we got that very early on. And of course, you look at that and you think, "Ah, well, this could be game over already." Yeah, you know, this person's literally confessed to what she's done.

“By the time the prosecution finished its opening, the tone of the trial had already been set.”

Before the jury heard a single doctor, before a single scan or blood result was put on screen, the question of what that note meant, a confession or a fragment of despair twisted into evidence would be argued later. But for now, this was the frame through which the jury would begin to hear months of dense medical evidence. Time lines, collapses, charts, and expert opinion. Not in a vacuum, but under the shadow of words already hanging in the room.

I am evil. I did this. Along with the handwritten notes recovered from Lucy Lepy's home, the prosecution would go on to present a wide range of other evidence. They placed text messages and social media activity alongside events on the neonatal unit, time stamped exchanges that sometimes read like real-time commentary, and were used to suggest how Lucy reassured her colleagues that sudden collapses were simply

natural deteriorations in an attempt to deflect suspicion. One of these text messages Lucy wrote, "It was the hardest thing I've ever had to do, just a big shock for us all, hard coming in tonight and seeing the parents. X-X." An exchange between one colleague read, "We lost baby D, to which her colleague replies, "What? But she was improving what happened? Want a chat? I can't believe you were on again.

You're having such a tough time." In another exchange, a colleague wonders what's happening on the unit. There's something odd about that night and the other three that went so suddenly. Lucy replies, "Well, baby C was tiny, obviously compromised in utero. Baby D's septic. It's baby A, I can't get my head around."

The jury was also shown a chart that the crown said revealed that let B was the one constant

to happening during the day, once Lucy's own shift patterns changed.

“But central to the case were the medical records themselves.”

These medical records were used to establish the baby's conditions before and after each collapse. To argue that some recoveries were too sudden to be natural and to a ledge that

notes and timings had been altered to distance Lucy let B from critical moments.

The prosecution then laid out the different mechanisms by which they alleged harm had been done. "There was so many different ways that I said that B had killed or harmed these babies, which in itself was strange to begin with." Sarah Napton, science editor for the British newspaper The Daily Telegraph, was following the trial closely. "But they said she had over a period of 2015 and 2016 had been purposefully

“encrypting harm and they used in various ways. In some cases they said she had injected”

air into their bloodstream which caused a blockage and an adhesive later and they went into cardiac arrest and then some of them died. In other cases they said she injected air into the stomach, which that has the effect of making the stomach enlarged and then that pushes up into the diaphragm which is controlling the lungs coming in and out. So the diaphragm is constricted and can't sexually pump the lungs. Then the baby can't get a touch of gin and again it

collapses. In other cases they said she'd put insulin into feedback so that the babies had too much insulin. There was another case where they said she'd discharged the tube of a baby. Another case where she'd injected milk into the baby's stomach to cause it to vomit and disdabilise.

“There was another incident where they said she's mothered but baby."”

In most serial murder trials the prosecution points to a single consistent method or MO. Here they were asking the jury to accept 7 different mechanisms of harm. From insulin poisoning in two babies, air injected into the bloodstream of others,

physical interference with breathing and in several cases a method they said had never

before been described, forcing air into baby's stomach until they could no longer breathe. It was a theory that had no clear precedent in the medical literature and one that some doctors unconnected to the case said that they had never encountered. But the crowns expert witnesses told the jury it was possible and that it had happened here. The jury would hear from dozens of witnesses, not just experts but also nurses, doctors,

and parents. But one voice would become the spine of the medical case and he was the first expert witness called. Here are actors reading court transcripts. Could you please state your full name, Dr Evans. Dr Dewey, Richard Evans. Thank you. You are I understand a consultant pediatrician. I am. Could you please inform the jury when you first qualified medically? I qualify from the Welsh National School of Medicine in 1971 and carried out

my first pediatric post 18 months later. Now, as you may recall from earlier episodes,

Dr Evans or the Welsh wizard had never treated any of the babies in this case. He had never worked

at the Countess of Chester Hospital. He was actually retired and had reached out to police to volunteer himself as an expert witness in this case. But his role was different. Dr Evans was there to look backward, to read the medical notes, reconstruct collapses and tell the jury what those records meant. What, in his opinion, could explain what had happened to these babies and what could not. Having passed through the various stages of training, could you confirm that you later became

a National Health Service Clinical Consultant Pediatrician? Yes, I was appointed consultant pediatrician in Swansea in 1980 before any individual child was discussed. Before any allegation was examined, the court spent hours establishing who he was, his decades in neonatology, his role

courts. This mattered. Because from this point on, much of what the jury would hear about

how these babies died, whether their collapses were natural, accidental, or deliberate, would be filtered through Dr Evans' conclusions. He wasn't just another witness. He was the lens. And as the prosecution made clear, they were asking the jury to trust that lens, case by case, baby by baby, as the medical foundation of everything that would follow. In the middle of the night, Saskia awoke in a haze. Her husband Mike was on his laptop.

I was on his screen would change Saskia's life forever. I said I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing. And immediately, the mask came off.

You're supposed to be safe. That's your home. That's your husband.

“So keep this secret for so many years. He's like a seasoned pro.”

This is a story about the end of a marriage, but it's also the story of one woman who was done living in the dark. You're dangerous person who prays unavailable and trusting people. You're trying to make a love and good. Listen to betrayal season 5 on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the burden of guilt season 2 podcast. This is a story

about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpride became the victim of a random crime. He pulls the gun. He tells me to lie down on the ground. He identified Termine Hudson as the perpetrator. Termine was sentenced to 99 years. I'm like, "Lord, this can't be real. I thought it was a mistaken identity."

“The best lie is partial truth. For 22 years only two people knew the truth.”

Until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to burden of guilt season 2 on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Joe Winterstein, host of the spirit daughter podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and have a step into your most vibrant life. And I just sat down with a mini driver.

The Irish travel is said when I was 16, you're going to have a terrible time with men. Actor, storyteller, and unapologetic, aquarium visionary. Aquarius is all about freedom loving and different perspectives. And I find a lot of people with strong placements and Aquarius, like our misunderstood, a son, and Venus in Aquarius, in her 7th house, spark her unconventional approach to partnership. He really has taught me to embrace people sleeping in different rooms

on different houses in different places, but just an embracing of the isnness of it. Oh, if you're navigating your own transformation or just want a chart-side view into how a leading artist integrates astrology, creativity, and real life, this episode is a must-listen. Listen to the spirit daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your podcast.

“Why hasn't a woman formally participated in a Formula One race weekend in over a decade?”

Think about how many skills they have to develop at such a young age? What can we learn from all of the new F1 romance novels suddenly popping up every year? He's still smelled of podium champagne and expensive friction. And how did a 2023 event called WagaGetting change the paddock forever? That day is just seared into my memory.

I'm a culture writer and F1 expert Lily Herman, and these are just a few of the questions I'm tackling on no grip. A Formula One culture podcast that dives into the under-explored pockets of the sport. In each episode, a different guest and I will go deeper into the wacky mishab scandals and sagas, both on the track and far away from it, that have made F1 a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to no grip on the iHeart Radio app,

Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton Nackard, and in 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor.

Unfortunately, it didn't go according to plan. He became the first bachelor to ever have his final

But what happened to Clayton after the show? Made even bigger headlines.

“It began as a one-night stand and ended in a courtroom, with Clayton at the center of a very”

strange paternity scandal. The media is here. This case has gone viral. The dating contract. Agreed to date me, but I'm also suing you. This is unlike anything I've ever seen before. I'm Stephanie Young. This is LoveTrap. This season, an epic battle of he said she said, and the search for accountability in a sea of lies. I am done nothing to get pregnant by the f***! Brassler! Listen to LoveTrap on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

The prosecution began with baby A, a premature infant who collapsed and died shortly after birth. The allegation was air embolism, air entering the bloodstream.

“So essentially an air embolism is where a pocket of air and air bubble is injected into a bay on the”

body, and things need to run freely. They said oxygen, the blood can run to the heart and the lungs, and everything gets oxygenated and then gets the brain. If you have an air bubble in that system,

as you can imagine, it's basically forming a little luggage and that can cause no problem with the brain,

it can cause problem with the heart. Here's actors again. Reading court transcripts of Dr. Evan's testimony about baby A's possible cause of death. Yes, finally on baby A please, Dr. Evans, the means by which air could have been inserted into a baby circulation. From what you know of the way in which baby A was being treated, what are the possibilities? Well, they're only two really, sorry, there's only one really. The air would have gone through an intravenous line, and that

can only occur in two ways. Accidentity or on purpose. And that's it. Some time ago, I obtained

a copy of all the intravenous bits and pieces of equipment used at the Chester Hospital, which we're

all familiar with. We're all familiar with these lines from visiting people in hospital, an intravenous bagline. I won't go through the whole bit, but doctors, nurses, we're so obsessive about ensuring that air does not get into the system. You know, we're absolutely obsessive about it, and it was have been and it's much better than how then. So having rigged up the system that was you did Chester, and it's in a room in this court, in this building, so we could demonstrate it

if necessary. I rigged it all up. There's no way air could have got into baby A by accident. You know the fail safe systems, the monitoring, the alarm setups, which have been present for you know a couple of decades, as opposed, ensures that this is not something that can occur accidentally. Thank you. No ambiguity, no alternative explanation offered. The problem with air embolism is that it leaves no DNA. It's hard to prove, but here, Dr Evans was

pointing to a red flag all over the baby's skin. Dr. Dauy Evans faced his conclusion of an embolism on a skin rush, largely. So in many other babies, there was a splitting pink rush that is recorded in some cases, and the doctors talk about it in other cases, which had its multiple patterns, and it came and went, and they said it was evidence of our embolism. Now, one of the papers, or pretty much the only paper they faced that on, was the paper by a

very, very eminent immunologist who kind of called Dr. Shulie.

“Now, remember the name Dr. Shulie, because his paper, and what he has to say about it,”

will later become vitally important. But for now, Dr. Evans was very keen on emphasizing the importance of this study to the jury. Dr. Evans argues that the paper supports what the doctors at the hospital suspected, that these types of rashes are indicative of an air embolism. So therefore, what we've got here is bright pink vessels against a genuinely cyanosed cutaneous, you know, relating to the skin. So the fact that it's bright pink, now that is remarkable,

it's very unusual. It shouldn't be pink, you know, or if it's pink, why has the baby collapsed?

Then there was baby E. Baby E had died of gastrointestinal bleeding. Dr. Evans was not asked

“to name a precise cause. He was asked something narrower. Whether there was any evidence this could”

have happened naturally. There is no evidence at all that this was a natural phenomenon. It is not something I have ever seen in my decades of neonatology and hands-on clinical practice. Again, certainty, not unlikely, not rare, not unexplained. In Dr. Evans' view, impossible to attribute to nature. This was the pattern the prosecution established, case by case.

Sudden collapse, no natural explanation. Expert opinion that deliberate harm was the only answer.

Over the months that followed, Dr. Evans was recalled repeatedly. Each time addressing a different baby and a different cause of death.

“If the medical evidence alone wasn't enough to convince the jury, it didn't stand on its own.”

Alongside the expert testimony came stories from doctors, nurses, hospital managers, and parents, accounts of moments that felt wrong. Of sudden collapses, of patterns noticed only in hindsight, of suspicions that grew quietly, than hardened. One of the most striking came from Dr. Ravi Jayram. He told the jury about the early hours of February 17, 2016, when he went to check on baby K. He said that when he entered the nursery, he saw Lucy let be "standing by the incubator

and the ventilator." Dr. Jayram testified that the infant's blood oxygen levels were in the

“80s and falling, and that mislead bee was doing nothing to respond. It was a moment the prosecution”

returned to again and again, a still image frozen in time, a doctor's interpretation of inaction,

presented as intent. But arguably, the most emotionally powerful testimony came from the parents.

The mother of baby D told Manchester Crown Court about being pushed into the neonatal unit, and noticing a nurse nearby. "I was pushed into the neonatal unit. She was sort of hovering around my baby but not doing much. She had a clipboard to take notes and she was sort of looking at a machine but I didn't understand what she was doing. When she asked if everything was okay, she said the response was calm, stating, "I asked if everything was okay and she said yes,

she's fine. I would have expected her to leave us but she just stuck around and was sort of just watching, looking over us. I wanted to tell her to go away to give us some privacy." That idea of hovering, of watching, was seized on by the prosecution. These moments mattered. They didn't prove how the babies died. They didn't explain mechanisms or causes, but they did something else. They gave the prosecution's case human weight. They turned

timelines and charts into lived experience. And for the jury, grief did what evidence alone sometimes can't. It made the story feel real. In essence, what the jury heard was a web of circumstantial evidence, professional judgment layered on professional judgment, each account reinforcing the last. And all of it arrived in a courtroom where the jury went home every night.

In the UK, juries are not sequestered. They're instructed not to read coverage, not to search the case, but they're still living inside the same media environment as everyone else. Headlines had been written. Narratives had been established. By the time this trial began,

The prosecution didn't need to introduce that context. It was already there.

And yet, for all of this, the testimony, the timelines, the suspicions, there were still a conspicuous absence at the center of the case. No one ever testified to seeing Lucy Letby harm a baby. No eyewitnesses. No moment where someone could say, "I saw her do this."

“What remained then was the authority of expertise. Because here's the thing,”

the prosecution didn't rely on one expert. They called Seven. Seven medical experts brought in to interpret collapses, rashes, blood results, patterns, and to tell the jury why those things were important. And the defense, they didn't call a single medical expert, not one. The only external person who testified on Lucy Letby's behalf was a hospital plumber. That's it. In a trial that lasted 10 months.

We will look into why this might have been in future episodes. But for now, what's important to note is that imbalance. It mattered, not just legally, but psychologically. Because when science is complex and explanations are hard to follow, numbers can begin to stand in for certainty.

“So there was layer upon layer of God's help. Can she possibly be innocent amongst a list?”

Seven experts appeared for the prosecution, none appeared for the defense, and seven doctors who worked at the hospital stood up and said we think she's guilty. So there were 14 medical experts who said she was guilty. So purely on the numbers, you know, as sometimes in a jury or baffled by all the science, and it was complicated. But if you think this is 14 zero, you got 14 experts up here, think she's guilty zero speaking up for it. Next time on doubt, the case of Lucy Letby.

No direct evidence of Lucy doing anything wrong. We've been practically opposite. The thing that was a big red flag for me as a doctor around to tell the evidence who's the lead prosecution

“expert is his certainty. He's not a lawyer, he shouldn't be about winning and losing. He's”

about giving his expert opinion, but he's never lost a case. So he's the hired gun really for the prosecution.

Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, is brought to you by the Spucci, I-Heart Podcasts, and Knox Robinson Productions. I've been your host Amanda Knox. This episode was written and produced by Natalia Rodriguez. The co-producer was Lucy Ditchman. The assistant producer was Amigil. The sound designer is Tom Bittle. The theme music was written by Tom Bittle, voice acting by Paul Leaming and David Charles, story editing by Kathleen Goldhardt.

Legal advice was provided by Jack Browning. The producers at I-Heart Podcasts are Chandler May's and Katrina Norvel. The executive producers were Joe Meek, Amanda Knox, Christopher Robinson, Daniel Turkin, and Johnny Galvin. Thank you for listening. In the middle of the night, Sasuke woke in a haze. Her husband Mike was on his laptop, but was on his screen would change Sasuke's life forever. I said I need you to tell me exactly

what you're doing and immediately the mask came off. You're supposed to be safe. That's your home. That's your husband. Listen to betrayal season 5 on the I-Heart Radio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Gilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpride became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years

until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Gilt Season 2 on the I-Heart Radio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton Nackard,

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Agreed to date me, but I'm also suing you. This is unlike anything I've ever seen before.

I'm Stephanie Young, listen to the love trapped on the I-Heart Radio app, apple podcasts,

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