HBO's The Comeback Comes Back with Dan Bucatinsky!

I'm here with Dan Boocotinsky, one of the producers and stars of my all-time favorite show.

“listeners know that I talk about the comeback all the time, Dan, how are you?”

I'm good, I'm so good, so thanks for having me. I'm so honored and so excited to talk to you. Truly, more than any other piece of media in the history of media, like the comeback is to me the greatest piece of art that's ever been made. Wow, well that's, that's um, high praise.

And I was nervous about season three because season two kind of wrapped up so perfectly. Yes, we, as we're a way, I mean, you know, season two.

We did an end season two with this notion that there'd be a third season, just like season one

ended with where we thought we were going to make a season two of a very different season two. What was the season two that was originally planned? Like if you guys did get, do you remember? Um, I don't remember, uh, it was, gosh, that's a really good question. There was a lot of talk about where we would go from there.

We end season one with her leaving Leno, having thought that she was the laughing stock. If having thought that the comeback had really ruined Valerie and in fact, it became a, you know, at the time there wasn't a lot of social media. So there was no such thing as sort of a viral moment. But in fact, that that J Leno was for all intents and purposes of viral moment for Valerie.

And she steps outside and she's signing autographs. And so we were going to pick up with how room in board is impacted. And then of course, how much resentment from Pauli G would have happened as a result of that. How much more power, Valerie and leverage, Valerie would have as a result of that J Leno moment.

“Um, so I think we were thinking along those lines of how to write the next season of that show,”

as well as the return of the comeback, um, but the comeback didn't come back. Yeah. And we didn't think about a second season until we had the opportunity to make one. So in between seasons over the years, I mean, we talked about sort of the Chicago moment, which is in the third season premiere. But you almost have had so many times working in this industry that you're like,

oh, that would be perfect for Valerie. I need Valerie to do that. Are there any, are there any things that weren't sort of woven into the series that you're like, oh, maybe a failure ever comes back again? Like, she should do that.

I mean, there's always these moments. One of the things I loved about season two was that Lisa and Michael

together had crafted a way of catching the audience up to what she has been doing. And you see this indie horror film that she was in. And you see her on the set of a procedural medical show. And you see her selling, trying to extricate herself from, or explain why the housewife situation didn't work out for her. And then of course, that great, one of my favorite things we ever shot was her selling her, her, um, seeing, you know, her red, her hair, her hairline,

cherisher hair with Mickey, with Mickey Dean, um, it just was such a fun, infomercial to shoot. Those things are like great moments to shoot. And we will often think about, like, oh, wouldn't it be funny if she? The notion of Valerie on Broadway has come up many, many times over the years. And as Lisa and Michael put it, it's a great moment to shoot, but it doesn't sustain a season. And it really, you know, you really need a big dramatic

event that's happening in the entertainment business, or in our world, or in her marriage, in order for that to sustain eight to 10 episodes, which is why season two was all about the making of this premium cable show that is about the life of Pauli G post heroin addiction. And season three, this moment when Lisa and Michael came together and they, and one of them was like,

what if she gets higher? What if she literally gets offered the first AI written sitcom and it was like,

oh my god, that's got to be it. And how quickly, from that idea of AI and Valerie cherished, were you guys in production? Because, um, I was at a Christmas party at the home of one of the other original writers from the comeback from season one, very dear friend of ours, Amy Harris,

“and we were at a Christmas party. I think in 2024, where I was pulled aside very quietly,”

by Michael and Lisa, and they were like, listen, don't say a word about this to anybody on the planet, but we sort of landed on an idea. And I was like, oh my god, how exciting. And they just whispered the notion that with a one line pitch, but, you know, so there you go, we're talking in December 2024, we're on the air in March. And I mean, even between, AI, even since then, seems so much more

that they both Lisa and Michael were busy, so they didn't get into it quite right away, but there was a moment where Michael was able to sort of pitch this concept to HBO, and Kasey

“Blois was like, um, yeah, if you're going to do it, you have to do it right now. And it's true.”

There's no better moment than right this second for this story. He's just given how fast AI is sort

of becoming sort of relevant. And there's stories about it. We were literally at South by Southwest last week, reading about an AI version of Andy Cohen that is going to be like promowing or an app of dating on the app. So it's, it will right there. Yeah. Yeah, it felt to me like it, it seems so current. And I'm like, how did they get this show made? And it's on at this time, because it just feels, we're sort of at the height of it, but I suppose AI is just going to keep

sort of being present in the industry. It will be in how we sort of push back against when it's taking over too much creativity or when it, you know, how we navigate with it. I was talking

yesterday about there's some things that about technology that are just realities that we will

come to learn to live with. And you know, think about the touch screen. There was a time where you weren't getting your tickets to movies and going to the movie to the airport and pulling everything you needed from a touch screen. That just seems like Jetsons, right? Well, we're a decade past that now. And in a decade, AI will sort of be integrated into our lives of entertainment. Your character Billy has had so many great moments throughout the series. I love that he's sort of

is one of the people embracing AI. He's excited about this opportunity for Valerie to do this AI sitcom and for him to produce it. And so I like that he sort of represented that of like, oh, this is a great opportunity. And what I found so fascinating in the new season without sort of spoiling

any of it, I know, at this little era after the first episode. But I found that even within the first

episode, there's a lot of people within the industry who are sort of where Valerie was in season one in two, where they're looking for work. They're trying to do anything. The casting director Sharon and he's like, please Valerie, it considered me for work. Yeah. And I thought that was such a brilliant sort of shift that it's now everyone in the industry has got a little Valerie in them more so

“than I think even in the early years. Yeah. I do think that to some degree, one of the benefits of”

again, it's inadvertent because this wasn't the original plan. But one of the gifts of being able to put a decade between each of the seasons is that the changes in our industry and the changes in the way people are able to find work, look for work, what people are dreaming of and wanting to do and how they go about doing that have changed. I mean, of course, the casting director doesn't know the secret, the big secret, the big AI secret at the time. You talked about Billy. I mean,

really the op- Do you believe this season too? Billy this season is just, he's not off the rails, but what you said though was that he's so excited by this opportunity. Billy is excited by any opportunity. I don't think Billy is given two thoughts to the AI of it all. What it means, what it means politically, whether the unions would like it or not, he's like, guess what? You've been offered an opportunity that would potentially could make me an executive producer.

That's all he sees. Stars in his eyes, let's go for it. No matter who falls in as a result. And so it's kind of funny that you sort of watch somebody who is in just as you said, almost like the Valerie of season one. Billy starts to emerge and Lisa said it in an interview recently that everybody has become Valerie chair. Yeah. You know, season one, she had to have a reality crew that was produced, that was willing to follow her around in her life. It's 20

“years later, we all have our phones. Yeah. Well, and I remember that very first episode of the”

comeback where we had people like Kim Fields and Mary Lou Henner Kim went on to do the real house vibes. Yes. But it was like even at that time, people like that who had been in television, we're looking down at reality TV. And now you can see, you know, some of the biggest stars are doing, or trying to do reality TV. Of course. And that's fascinating to me. What was it? Billy also has one of my favorite sort of runners as Billy's wardrobe throughout season three.

It's like so fucking funny. Yeah. And Billy is feeling his moment. I'm sort of linking to Billy today in my Tom Brown sweater, which is. Tom Brown has so good. You know, when I I saw it in the script, it was totally Michael Patrick King's sort of notion that Billy winds up in head to toe, Tom Brown, the killed skirt, the whole thing, and Tom Brown sort of made that. Famous four or five years ago, by the way, one of the things that made me laugh so hard is that

snatching. And it's not from this season. Yeah. And every time we sort of see Billy there, it's sort of he's, there's an evolution to even just his wardrobe, which we have is so brilliant. I also wanted Billy's hair to represent sort of, you were getting higher and higher, everybody. We're getting bigger and bigger. Yeah. This is a moment now that that he wants to sort of grab and he's not going to let it go. He's to he white knuckles it all the way through the season. Was it fun getting

back in the shoes of Billy? Like did you have it? It was. It was. I mean, listen, I am, I love playing

Billy from the from the first season. The idea that this publicist who loves Valerie and wants this

opportunity, but also has this hidden fervor, this impulse control problem, this anger management problem, clearly in season one. And to see that then develop into season two where he's so threatened by anybody else who steps on his toes and he's willing to quit if it's not going to go exactly his way. And he's pissed at all the people like Evelyn Gorey who fired him in the past. It's like sure, just when everybody starts to move, they leave me behind. You start to see a little bit of that

fervor and social climbing and desperation in Billy. And I kind of loved the idea that we're now going to see the, you know, 20 years later, he loves Valerie, he's devoted to her, but he's devoted to somebody even more important to him now. So it really was fun. Nothing is like sitting across from Lisa when she is. How do you do it? Like even in season two, there's that beautiful scene where

“Billy has his freak out in the trailer. Yeah. And Valerie, I believe in that scene is dressed in the”

green scenes. Head to toe, green. Like I, I mean the first time and still every time I watch that, it's like tears rolling down my face because it's such a ridiculous look. It is like, how do you, I don't even know how you get through scenes like that. Well, that scene was so awful. We do have a lot. That scene was so brilliantly written. It's one of my favorite scenes. I think I've done in any show. And one of the things I loved about it and what I think is so brilliant about

when Michael and Lisa collaborate, the juxtaposition, like in season one, the juxtaposition of Valerie doing her first video blog in the bathroom with such self, well, the baths have seen the candles. But I'm talking about her first one. I think it's an episode one where she's, where literally her husband is defecating in the bathroom. And she's being really self-important and thoughtful and philosophical and talking to camera. And you just hear the sounds by the juxtaposition.

And then he comes out of the bathroom and he gives her a kiss on the cheek and says you'll be great no matter what you do. There's intimacy. There's love there. He's farting in the background. She's being like the juxtaposition of belief, throwing the phone in her trailer while she

looks like her meant the frog. It's so, it's sort of our show. It's always like that.

And you guys have done such a great job of incorporating that sort of blue humor in such a brilliant way because you know, there's even there was a scene with Brad Gretzky where that he's sort of like the toilet. Oh, yeah. Explodes in season two. Yeah. And it's the funnest. You know, there's like

“poop humor in it, which I think everybody finds funny. Of course. But oftentimes, I think people sort of”

steer away from it because they're like, no, that's, we're too high brow for that. But I love that the comeback just is like, no, we have the high brow. We have the drama too. We have the, we're also going to do some poop humor because people like that. And there's themes that we, there are themes through the three seasons that whether they were delivered or not. You know, when season one, there's a leak. There's a leak going through her wall that sort of damages her it wall. And the

water pressure in the house becomes important. And then in season two, she's going to the Emmys. And there's a leak of of sewage coming through the garage. And poor Brad is in a white touch jacket and lands face down on the result of that sewage leak. And it's all part of a very emotional episode. I mean, it's all interwoven. And in season three, there's a water, there's a leak. There's a different kind of leak, which I won't give away, but people will, will find.

You know, I'm going back to season one. I watched it when it aired. And I've always loved Lisa

of course from friends. And I just was obsessed with her, Murme Michelle, you know, a million things. But I remember watching it as it aired. And I would tell anyone who would listen. I was like,

“you have to watch the show. And then the DVD came out. I'm like, please watch this. I was”

watching the special features on it. Actually, absolutely. And if anyone that would listen, I was like, you have to watch the show. And I noticed, back then, some people got it. And then other people found it a little too uncomfortable. Yes. And I think I sort of noticed. And I'm sure you guys

didn't. And I would share with girlfriends, and sometimes I say, oh, it's a little too much for me.

“Too hard. Now, I think if you go back and watch season one, I don't think it's too hard,”

because we're a little more custom. We are. But can you talk about like maybe why, why do you think gay people were able to get it? Well, there's a couple of things that play here. I think part of it has to do with the experience of feeling a little bit on the outside. The notion of growing up in your skin and feeling like that you're not necessarily being seen and you want to be seen, not being heard authentically and wanting to be heard authentically. And Valerie

in a very transparent way, in a very visible way, almost too much so. And a very naked way is really out there trying to be seen and heard in a very big way. And I think that those who have

felt, I always say that, and Lisa Gujo in general, as an actress has a kind of satellite dish,

an ability to play characters who's parts of them that might feel like there's the small cracks in the ego of of characters. She's able to play with so much pain though, so without, you know,

“it's a natural gift. And I think the gay community understands, understands Valerie Church in a very”

big way. The other thing I have to say has to do with misogyny. We live in a society that we, you know, and we all know that that which is feminine and female. And there is an inability to look at a woman who is facing whether it's an embarrassment or a setback or a humiliation. At that time, was really difficult. It wasn't hard to see Larry David doing it, but it's hard to see a woman

doing it. And it was before they were housewives. And it was before exploitation or the raw

conflict and embarrassment of women in Beverly Hills and Orange County and Atlanta was just a commonplace entertainment. And once that became something that we felt comfortable with, suddenly it was okay to see Valerie Church in that light. So I think we were a little bit ahead of the curve in that

“way. You know, I think over the drama of the show, too, and there's a moment and season one where”

she's talking about her scoliosis, I think, in the mirror. And it's such beautiful. I would encourage anyone who's just even just a fan of acting or I think it's one of the most brilliantly acted scenes or anything in television. I couldn't agree with anyone. And the way she's, you know, you mentioned how she's able to kind of tap into that. And she's doing a lot without saying a lot. And it's, I think it's a master class. So much of this series is a master class, but that scene in

particular. That's episode. That season one episode nine and it's the very iconic episode where she has to wear a cupcake suit. And there's a double vomit. It's like a really iconic moment in the show except right before it. She's just telling the story about being on the field hockey team. And it overcomes her, the memory of, of being on that team. It's heartbreaking. And she plays it perfectly. That's one of the gifts. I mean, I listen, I love Lisa, but she's her ability to bounce back and forth

from the sort of very bold self-aware looking at the camera and trying to control her narrative. And the moments where Valerie is overcome by thoughts and feelings that we see that she didn't expect or can't control. And that dance happens all the time. I mean, I hope that this season, I've gotten a chance to see this season. And I hope that I know Emmys aren't like, you know, everything. But I do hope the Emmys come through for the comeback this year, because there's just so much

brilliance. And to not recognize the show is a disservice to everything. I appreciate that. So good for me or mouth to guys years. Talk to me a little bit about Mickey. Obviously, we all love Mickey in the series. And I think you handle his loss so incredibly beautifully in season three. But it must have been sort of nerve wracking to not have that presence in the show in season three. Well, it's a real loss for sure. I mean, she's Robert Michael Morris who was a real, a real

find. He had been an acting teacher of Michael Patrick Kings. He wasn't even pursuing acting as a professional. But Michael, when he was when he and Lisa were writing the character of Mickey, I think Michael had in his head. I know this guy. I know who this is. And it wound up being that human being who wound up becoming Mickey and being such an advocate for Valerie. We really needed that voice and that energy and that lovely positive spirit around her. And Michael got sick and he was

yeah, we approached him and said, look, we have this opportunity to make a season two. How do you feel about how you strong enough to do it? And he really wanted to do it. And it really, it was a real gift to him to be able to make. And we sort of built and we did. We built his illness or his weakness or into season two. And Valerie's protection of him in season two was very evident and kind of

“touching. And really the emotional engine, I think, of season two. And that was last episode, which is”

one of the most brilliant finale of all time. Correct. The finale of season two was so important it's what I call Pinocchio becoming a boy. It's this moment where Valerie leaves the Emmys. Like against everything that you could ever imagine. Someone like her would ever do. And she steps out into that lobby and we finally see Valerie with no cameras. Obviously we're watching her film and objective camera. But it becomes, you know, nine minutes of a film of seeing Valerie without being able to

address a camera or control her narrative as she goes to see her friend and sort of really embraces what's important in her life, which is her friend and her husband. And it's a beautiful ending. It's a perfect finale. I agree with you. And there was no thought necessarily of ever making another

season after that. But you never know. But I feel like his presence is also so there in season three

as well. And it's handled just so perfectly. We really wanted that. We wanted to honor Robert Michael Morris and we wanted to honor Mick Eve and we wanted Valerie to honor Mickie and it's such a beautiful episode. It's the third episode of the season. And I cried every time I read the script and then there'd be another draft of the script and I would be in tears and then I would watch the while we were on set, watching and happened. It was so moving. And I have to tell you, I'm not told

anybody this before. But while we were shooting episode three and we shot out of order. So there was scenes from episode three that we shot throughout the whole time. But there was a member of our crew who is a doppelganger of Robert Michael Morris. And I, it was like seeing a ghost. We're like honoring him in this episode. Literally. There was a scene like holding an earner or something. And I went to least and I was like, "Well, you come with me?" "Well, you, that, that, that grip." And she was like,

"Oh my God, it was unbelievable. We took pictures of her with, with, we were trying to figure out a way to work it into the narrative and it just was too, it was almost too off-screening. It was, he looks exactly like him. And I feel like we were visited by Robert Michael Morris in such a beautiful way, even while we were shooting." Yeah, I love how you guys handled it. There were so many great people that I've, we're in season one that kind of circle back in season two in season three.

Was there anyone, maybe that you could share? I know I'm asking you so many behind the scenes questions. But anything you could share about like, was, was anyone, did you try to get anyone back

“for like a little cameo, but you couldn't figure out a way to maybe work it into the narrative?”

I wasn't, you know, Lisa and Michael wrote every episode of the show. So, I don't know when the two of them spent three months sort of beating out the season, I know that they were figuring out in what ways might we meet, might we need or not need, Pauli J. Or in what ways might we run into or not run into, Juna, played by Maul and Acumen. I do know that they've paid a lot of attention to in what ways will the characters of the past serve our story or not serve our story? So,

that was thought of a lot. I don't have any specific, there weren't any specific characters that

were discussed or people that they reached out to that weren't available. That has never happened.

Anytime somebody gets the call, of course. It's like, drop everything. I remember in season two, I was, I did groundlings here in Los Angeles and right when I had sort of, they can cut you from the program at a certain point. It's very cutthroat. And right when I had been sort of cut, the episode aired where Valerie takes a groundlings class, there are so many friends who were in

“that I remember was just so devastating to come on. That was one of your Valerie Church moments.”

Really like the most of, I mean, I can viscerally remember it because it's my favorite show and I remember being like so excited to watch it and it's like, they're at the groundlings and I was like, it was very triggering. We're automatic. We take so many hits. This is a business. I say this

all the time. No matter what level you're at, there is never an end to the ways in which you can be

disappointed. And I have to tell you, you're involved in one of my recently. I was hosting the Elton John Red Carpet event. And so, you know, those things are, by the way, not invited this year. Okay, first time ever, not invited. I thought you were there because I'm hosting and I'm interviewing and everything sort of moving fast. You're talking to someone, then there's someone in your ear

like, wow, pass. And I knew you were coming over. And I was like, so excited to meet you and say,

hello, and I'm like, in between, they're bringing me another guest and in between I'm like, Dan, Dan, you know, like shouting at someone from who's behind that. And I kept shouting. I hope it was Ryan Gosling. Very, it's a man of fact. Very handsome man. But I didn't, I only saw, I saw like the glasses and I saw him walk and then his wife for girlfriend or someone was like, his name's not Dan. And then he turned around and it was so embarrassed. Like it was, you know,

it wasn't here. It was like her husband or whatever. I often go to that this year. I didn't make the cut, but this is sort of, well, I appreciate it. I would have loved to talk to you on that

“carpet. And we were at South by Southwest during the Oscars anyway, but but the, but that's what I was”

saying. I'm saying, no matter what level you're at it, at the beginning or in the middle of your career or at any point, there are, there's no end to the kind of disappointments that can come.

And I love, I think Valerie Cherish is such an inspirational character because she always lands on

her feet. And she always finds a way to spin the narrative in a way that benefits her. And it's what it's, what adapting is all about. You know, and I, you mentioned at any point in your career, too, I do think even sort of the biggest stars have these types of moments too. Like I, I don't know, I've sort of, you can see different, when you are working a carpet or something like that, you can see these moments happening with the biggest names and those. Yes. Look, season one of

the comeback. It was to only two years after friends was over. Lisa Cudro, you know, has made this new series. And she's, it was, it was a big disappointment to make season one and get canceled. And the fact that we were a canceled show that has turned this into a beautiful trilogy after 22 years is a total gift that doesn't usually happen when your show gets canceled. So we certainly are grateful for the opportunity. But that was a moment that was a real kick. It really, it hurt.

I'm sure. Now you're all billing this as the final season. But there has to be some sort of, are do you feel like it's the end? It's 10 years. It feels like, you know, the way we ended this season, it was written as the final moment for this trilogy. So it is, this is the final season.

“I think, I hope there'll be more of that. I don't, I don't believe there will be another season”

of the comeback. Whether it's the, and whether this is the last time you ever see Valerie Cherish or not. Okay. No one can say. Talk to me about meeting Lisa. You guys have been producing partners and you've also done so many brilliant things together. Web therapy. I loved.

No, thank you. Thank you. We did more web therapy. We didn't, we, we always want to. We

always want to make more. And there's always people who want to, you know, we've had such an incredible cast over four seasons that we, that we, you guys had a narrow street. We had a narrow street bond and Meg Ryan and Conan O'Brien and Steve Corral and Julia Louis drive us like that the list is endless and it was so fun to make. It was improvised show that it's a very ahead of its time. Yeah. I mean, the, the notion of, of doing therapy in bytes online was before COVID.

It was, it was, it was 10 years before COVID. So, so it, we, we were inadvertently ahead of our time. But, uh, we, that was a very satisfying show to make because I did it with my husband, Don Rus, and Lisa and thank you. And the three of us would cook that up together and would improvise and write outlines for these shows. And we were sort of a studio in and of ourselves. We didn't have to take notes from anybody. So it was a very satisfying project. Um, but Lisa and I met on the

set of my husband, Don's movie, the opposite of sex, which is a really great movie. And as it turns out, 10 years earlier, we were at college at the same time. We just weren't friends. But from the point that we met on Don's movie, we, we got along and Don and Lisa and myself and Lisa's husband Michelle would socialize together. And I made this movie called all over the guy a little gay romantic comedy that Lisa had a cameo in. And by 2003, we partnered up in a company at Warner Brothers

and produced television together for over 15 years, including who do you think you are, which we're 10 seasons of that show, we're really proud of. And we still produce this game show 25 words or less, which is in season eight. Um, so Lisa and I have remained really close friends and we produced television together for 15 years. And we no longer have our company, um,

“but she remains one of the most important people in my life. I love it. I love the”

work you two do together. I feel like everything sort of has the humor and then also the gravitas. I mean, you mentioned who do you think you are? And that show is also so beautifully done. Well, it was created by Alex Graham in the UK. It was a huge hit for the BBC and Lisa was really passionate about bringing it to American audiences. And you know, she and I and and the team

you are? And that's a show we would never stop making if we could. So we're we still pursue that.

I saw a clip of you on Jesse Tyler Ferguson's podcast and talking about, um, you auditioned for,

“I think Mitch and Kim, I'm not on family. And then also Will and Will and Grace. Yes. And I”

auditioned to play Chandler two on friends. Oh, wow. I mean, I have a whole string of parts I did not get on those show. I appeared on friends. I appeared on Will and Grace. I didn't, I never appeared on Modern Family, but I would have liked to. You know, I'm curious as a gay actor. What have you seen sort of the changes? Because I I think back at that time and although sort of in the mid to late 90s, it seemed like there was more representation happening on screen.

It often sort of felt like it was still if you were an out gay actor, maybe not as well-received as, you know, they were hiring straight actors. Yes. What do you think about sort of the well-ocean of that? You know, I came to LA in '92 and I was closeted, you know, not in my personal life, but certainly professionally. And for a very long time. I mean, I think it took me 10 years. I mean, I thought I was closeted. I think anybody who was, you know, gifted

it was site and hearing, you know, new, new differently. But it really stood, you know, and I worked and I became a writer and I started to finally write, I wrote all over the guy as a gay romantic comedy. But even when I was writing all over the guy, I was sort of closeted about how I wanted the world to perceive Dan Bukotinsky differently from the character. I was so delusional about whether I thought people would perceive me one way or the other because I was worried that if people

knew I would not work. And at that time, it was what I call IGH insert gay here, that people would write scripts where the gay is the character would lead with the gainess, that rather than a story where the person would call the just happens to be story, a story about a character that is fully fleshed out and just happens to be gay was very rare. And so that rom-com that I made all over the guy was really about two people who just happened to be gay and their best friends

were a straight couple who fixed them up. It was very rare back then that a character who is gay and out was not leading with that as the only real defining characteristic. So your wardrobe would be a lavender sweater wrapped around you know, I did that. I auditioned for those parts for an entire

“decade. If you're gay, that's the only thing interesting about you and you walk in and you say”

something creepy and you snap your fingers and you leave assistant. I noticed even now, you know,

when I get an audition come through with always the gay assistant or a realtor. Well, those are

the two. We're still, you know, and this is a thing about sort of being pigeonholed in whatever area and now of course there's a lot more emphasis put on casting the authenticity of a real gay out actor to play a gay character. I'm not as focused on that and you know, I think if you're an actor, you should be able to play all different kinds of people. But right well rounded humans that either just happened to be gay or just happened to be Latino but they can be your lawyer

or they can be your husband or they can be the killer as opposed to just type casting. So I've seen a real change. The biggest thing though for me was that I didn't really start working in a way that was part of what I had dreamt of. For 20 years after, you know, it took me 20 years of living in LA before I was able to really come out, talk about my personal life in a very public way. I wrote my book, "Does this baby make me look straight as a way of really embracing this is the truth of

who I am. This is my husband. I've now I'm a parent of two kids and believe it or not, that's what

“led me to meet Shonda Rhimes. That's what led I think her to connect with me. We both adopted our”

kids and I think it played some role in the kind of part I got to play on scandal which changed my life. And I told you off camera, your book was so important to me because at the time, it took 2012, I think the book came out and even still to the state, there isn't a whole lot of representation for gay parents, gay families. And so I remember reading your book, reading dance averages, the kid, seeing interviews with people like Neil Patrick Harris, we're talking about family,

and it was so influential to me. So first of all, I just want to say thank you. Well, it really meant the world. And now I have a nine-month-old son and I don't think I would have been able to see that future or my current without people like you being so open about it. I'm pretty sure. And that there was a path. So I really just want to thank you and your book

is so good. It's so funny and warm and a million different things. But I'm curious where you'd

nervous at all, even me now, I've been pretty open about our journey with starting a family

that sort of other side of like, well, I also want to be able to show other gay kids or gay people

“that, like, there's a possible path to a family. Yeah. Were you nervous? Yes, I was nervous.”

I was very scary writing that book. There were chapters that were very, very revealing that I was worried about. And I knew that every time I was really, really scared to write a chapter, that was probably the indication that I needed to do it. My husband wasn't thrilled about me doing it. And I got some criticism from fellow gay parents who are like, you know, this is your kid's story to tell. This isn't your story to tell. And I really grappled with that. I very deliberately

was writing about a period of time when my son was two and my daughter was maybe five as no older than five. Where really the story I was telling was mine. It was how I became a dad, why became a dad, how bad I was at it, how much I was struggling through moments of parenthood that are universal, that really were from my point of view. It really wasn't about exploiting the story of being them. Certainly, if I were to do it again now, and my kids are now 21 and 18, you know, again,

“I think I could tell the story of being a parent without exploiting their personal lives.”

I would almost love to see a follow up about sort of now that you said 18 and 21. Yes, like that's actually kind of it. There's a lot to say about it. And I've had it. It's been a

quite a journey. And every day is another little, you know, a few more steps on that journey. You never

know where it's going to turn. It's so much trickier now because there are adults and I would never want to expose the trials, tribulations and victories of my children on paper without their, you know, without their consent. But I certainly can talk with other parents and talk generally about the raising of, you know, of kids once they become adults and how important it is to embrace how powerless we actually are over who they become. We think it's such, it is such an illusion.

“We think that we control their path. We think that we control their destiny. We think that if we”

remove sugar from our cabinets that they will never have sugar. And then if we put them in soccer and piano and all these classes that they will dot dot dot. These are things that are illusions

that make us feel powerful, but none of them actually are true. Well, this might have answered my

question, but is there any advice, tiny gay dads out there or myself that you would give sort of at the beginning of the journey? I would emphasize the importance of looking, letting them see you, see them with delight and loving your eyes, to end let them see you and your partner. Look at each other in that same way. There's nothing better than modeling, kindness and love in your eyes. I wish I had done it more. I mean, I'm going back. I put so much emphasis on what

they put in their bodies and what, how much sunscreen I put on them and what classes I put them in and what experiences I would give them and what school I could get them in and all these things that I felt were going to control the path that I wanted for them. And they are human beings from jump that have their own path and their own guiding GPS that will lead them where they're going to go. And so much of it is nature and so little of it is nurture, but I will say that I have

experienced this kind of letting go of this notion that we what we say and what we think about who they will become is in fact the path that they need to take and seeing them as fully as full human beings, even when they're small and they're infants and their babies, that watching them sort of have the reactions and feelings that are natural to them is a very hard thing to do and it's the only advice I would give, looking backwards. It's interesting, I'm already, he's nine

months old, my son and I'm starting to notice his personality coming through and it's like so fascinating even at that age to see, yeah, him being him. It's great and to embrace seeing him become him and gravitate towards a thing or a color or a desire to want something or to want to put a certain food in this mouth or to not want to put other foods in this mouth like these are the natural impulses and I wish I had I had gotten the advice that I know now that I'm certainly trying to live

on a day-to-day basis when they were much younger. I'm working on my next book and it's all about parenting and I'm kind of going through a similar thing like what you were talking about, of trying to find the line of what to share and how much to share and I don't know it's interesting.

know. We think we know. But do you feel like there was a there's a pressure especially as someone

who's talked about parenthood or written a book about it? Do you feel an extra pressure to be a

“perfect gay dad or if there isn't a lot of people? Oh yeah and I think that to some degree,”

one of the reasons I wrote the book was to show the stumble and the insecurity. It's a fairly self-deprecating book only because I wanted other parents to connect with like there's no perfect way but yes you want to be a good role model as a gay dad or or is any parent really and it's hard. I will say that also at the time that Don and I adopted we were the outliers like every gay couple I knew were using surrogacy which I think is great. However, however way you find a way

to become a family is great but they we were looked down upon by groups of other gay dads because

we didn't because the kids weren't necessarily biologically ours so there was there was a stigma to that and so I became a big advocate for adoption and talked a lot with other parents just about that process and you know there's different paths. What about any gay people out there who I don't know is there something you would say to them if they're interested in starting a family maybe it's more of encouragement or yeah I mean listen I think that waiting is not necessarily

“the best thing if you know that you want to be a parent I think whatever path towards creating a family”

you should start when you feel the impulse because we get a while it takes a while and we're only getting older and I became a dad at 40 in hindsight it might have all felt different on my knees and my back and my spirit if I had been a few years younger sure okay switching gears a bit I just have a few more questions do you have any favorite gay films or what are what are sort of your gay touchstones wow well my beautiful lingerat was one as a real I'm going to real far back you know

because that was you know object of my affection was another one that I really loved and uh uh oh god what was the AIDS movie with German Moroni and um uh that took place in fire I'll kind of can't remember but there were certain movies that uh I'm terrible with remembering titles there's another one called beautiful um which is a British film which I thought was just so touching and um that that I I got a lot of inspiration from again the stories that are told where the characters

happened to be gay as opposed to being coming out stories or AIDS stories not that we didn't need

those narratives as well we did and we do but um but I always gravitated towards those could we get

you writing another gay movie yeah I mean I think that it's there's one in me a little later in life maybe love story I think would be really fun for a while there I was really focused on writing the sequel to all over the guy where the the characters meet up and where they had not been together but they meet up again 10 years later or 20 years later yeah can we get that oh well I haven't written it but but but this is the 20 this year's the 25th anniversary of all over the guy so

it so hopefully we'll get to have a some kind of celebratory screening of it and hopefully that will inspire me to either write some version of a sequel to that movie or if not a uh one like it

“you must have heard from so many gay men about that movie over the years and what it's meant to them”

yeah I that there's something really satisfying about having somebody come up to me and be like I was only 16 but that movie really made me feel like romance was possible and there's nothing more satisfying to me than then when that movie has touched some of it it came out in 2001 okay so I yes I was trying to think of when did I see it I remember renting it from the local video story yeah being a closet at teen at the time and yeah it was movies like that or I mean something trick

yeah trick was another one same in the same year I think these movies that Billy's Hollywood screen case which was Sean Hayes which I auditioned for as well by the way oh my gosh broken hearts club broken hearts club right around the same time and that was that Greg Berlin it was Greg Berlin and he had him last night at the premiere yeah yeah and those movies were so I mean they showed me that this was the path I mean aside from your parenting but like there's like those movies being

able to kind of sneak those rentals and I wasn't out at the time those movies were considered these gay films that would get theatrical release at companies like lion skate and paramount classics and Sony classics would release a certain number of these gay lesbian and gay romcoms

and my husband wrote the opposite of sex which was a very innovative gay film in 1997

“I think it came out in 1998 Lisa Coojo and Christina Reachie just brilliant in that movie but”

it was a time when those kinds of movies were were the indie films and festival favorites and it's harder now because those movies well they they wind up on our streamers and all over the guy now as I think out there on one of the streaming platforms so I'm glad that we we made them now it's it would be great to tell stories where characters like even the new version of uh four seasons you know where uh with Steve Carat the Tina Fey yeah which is sort of a

remake of that movie that Alan Alder film from the past but there's a gay couple in the group and they

just happened to be a gay couple who are dealing with the same marital issues that every fan you know

it's great when these stories can still be told and modern family was really a very new in showing a gay couple having a baby and just being a married gay couple with a kid where you can either see similarities in your own life which I think those things really bring people together I'm curious what the the impact of something like heated rival real be because although it's more it's a little more tintillating or is that the right one? Tidillating yeah

but I'm curious what it seems like it's kind of got this real cultural moment and I'm curious if it's just gonna make audiences more accepting of even just like gay sex on screen. I think I think inadvertently it will I think that the that the sex in that show is certainly titillating and certainly fun to watch but I think what's actually really made women I mean the

“and the key to a hit everyone knows this in our business the key to any hit are women”

the what's made women fall in love with heated rivalry and make it the phenomenon that it is which happens what once a decade right is the love affair is the absolute heated love the way those two men look at each other the way that the power that that love has is something that I I think is what women are responding to because any show or any TV show or any porn can just show sex but to actually depict two people falling in love and the and the heat and the

passion of that is very hard to get right and I think you know whether they're getting the hockey right I would have no way of knowing but the idea of it being sort of a hidden love is really really compelling yeah you know I love asking other actors this when they come on the show is there role of course we didn't even really get to talk about your iconic role on scandal but is there a role that you would say to people out there go back and watch that maybe it was a little missed

of mine yeah like is there something that you'd say oh I love that performance I gave there but but maybe it wasn't like you know a huge scandal moment yeah I mean scandal was a change my life because I got to play scenes that felt like every every script that James had a scene with with his husband Cyrus felt like a one act play and so I was very lucky to get to do those things I have to say like the Billy you know Billy season two and and the scene that we were talking

about is it was something I was really proud of because it was unexpected I like playing characters that are unexpected I loved the character I played in 24 legacy it was we thought 24 was going to come back for a season many many seasons that was another one that just did one season it was a reboot of 24 and I did in 2017 and I play the character who just happened to be gay but was sort of the very important figure in at CTO who had such a big job and such an important job

and I loved the roles I've gotten to play where while it may I may or may not have been a gay

character that wasn't what led who the person was so I've always I'm always seeking

those kinds of things out I would love to play a detective or a chief of medicine on on on on staff at a hospital talk about a role yeah I mean I would have loved to even play in brilliant minds you know where we're Zach Quinto is playing a gay lead doctor and that kind of

“thing I think would be it is I was hopefully in my future who were the people when you were coming”

up that you were always auditioning with well I clearly was chasing Sean Hayes the entire time from Billy's Hollywood screen kiss right to Will and Grace he's a dear friend of mine and also so talented so talented and that that show is so important to me yes yeah I mean there are over the

other gay actors you know Tim Bagley and Sam Pancake and all the guys who are in my age group that

“are gay and in comedy we would all be chasing each other either one and Tim Bagley is so brilliant”

on the comeback we had him in season two and then he he comes back in in a really fun way in season three and I love to you it's such a small sort of role but I love the way he comes back in season he does and he has a real well rounded character I mean Michael and Lisa really good about creating

very well rounded characters even if you only see them for for one or two episodes

last two questions I ask all of my guests if you were choosing for people magazine sexiest man alive who would you choose and also your favorite Mariah Carey song oh no you're kidding me I know I'm sorry I'm so I'm gonna be so cliche sexiest man alive I mean I'm a real Ryan don't sling fan I'm interesting I get that and I I just I find him incredibly compelling what he wears how effortless he seems it everything he does who was your sort of gay awakening crush

of Larry Hagman a major Nelson in the I dream of Jeannie that was a classic example of being completely confused sexually where I wanted to beat I wanted to beat Jeannie because I could have him as my master I wanted to dress as Jeannie I wanted to break her hair in her fun little bottle and but I also wanted to sleep with Larry not Larry major Nelson okay Mariah Carey song I mean it's a Christmas um her Christmas song all I want for Christmas it's a classic and I mean she's so

talented but that one is just you can you can't ever hear it enough right Dan it's such a pleasure and honor to talk to you I'm such a huge fan of your work thank you come back season three is brilliant and I was probably more nervous than anyone to see it because I love it so much and I thought there's no way that we can top season one and two and you guys did it I'm so glad I chance to see all of

the episodes and I just want to encourage everyone it I feel like the first episode is so funny

“and seeing it with a crowd was just crying laughing at the premiere but I think the show just keeps”

getting better throughout the run of season three and the finale it's also perfect I can't truly perfect we're so relieved thank you for saying that because like if you were nervous we were really nervous that we would deliver I don't even know how you guys did it it's like what the fuck like I don't know how you guys were able to make it so good it like kind of blows my mouth at least it could do a Michael Patrick game I feel I trust with Lisa I just trust her instincts for everything like

I just I was saying her talk about Romeo Michelle sequel and I'm like I'm not worried about if she's gonna do it I feel like it must be good I agree she just has great I mean in great

“you but just it's phenomenal watch such a hilarious and I think we need the laughs so anyway thank you so”

much thank you thank you for having me this is so fun