Easter • Director Dallas Jenkins • Mar. 30-April 5 • Come, Follow Me

We were gonna be using the LDS set and Goshen-Yuta It was the only place we were gonna be able to film season 2 because everything else was closed down or in Ovid and there's no places in the states that work and look on overseas And that's not working and then the church told us no can't use it and I'm like man That's weird. I thought God had put it on my heart to use this set and I visited it and felt like God was speaking to me and telling me lives They're gonna change with the work you do on this set and then they said no and I'm like I guess I was wrong

Hello, my friends. Welcome to another episode follow him. My name is Hingsmith. I'm your host I'm here with my joyful co-host John by the way John straight out of the manual this week Easter is a joyful time If there's no Easter, there's no Christmas and we think of joy with Christmas, but if there's no Easter It's all about Easter. It's all about the resurrection

“Easter is what matters John. We are honored and privileged today to be joined by the creator of the chosen”

Dallas Jenkins Dallas. Welcome to follow him. Yeah. Thanks for having me. You guys do great work We are excited to have you one of our team members her name is Lisa Spice. She says this is the greatest day of her recording life on follow him John when you think of Easter What comes to mind when I was a little kid? We would be at church and if I was having trouble

Paying attention my mom would say think about Jesus and I would think about a picture in my mind I would try to anyway Later you get older and you lose people you lose your grandparents My brother lost a baby more and more I started thinking about

that empty tomb and that he was risen That has helped me the best part to remember about Christ is that he was not there when they went to the tomb You've lost both your parents. I've lost both my parents because of the Lord I like to say we hope for that reunion, but we actually expect to have that fully expected absolutely one day

“Dallas, what comes to mind for you when you think of Easter? What's it like in the Jenkins family?”

Well at the moment it's how do I portray the resurrection in a way that will bring joy and clarity and ultimately worship to people because we're filming season seven this year Which is our resurrection season It's been very much on the brain for a long time because I feel a sense of Responsibility to get it right now that said

This has been true of my whole experience making the show which is that if you're going to make a show that portrays Christ to Hundreds of millions of people you really need to know him and I've been raised in the faith my whole life

You never stop learning more and more about Christ and understanding more and more it

It's endless on this side of eternity at least Every year around Easter One of the things that I think is beautiful about it about the yearly tradition is that some of us who are prone to wonder Maybe in our thoughts or in our focus throughout the year are forced to Think about the greatest and most impactful moment of our lives even though we didn't experience the resurrection ourselves

In person the resurrection that took place 2000 years ago We're forced to reflect on it and then forced to also Consider how it still applies today how resurrection and rebirth and new life and dead becoming alive Still applies today For me every time that Easter comes around

I really do as especially as a storyteller think about how this story still impacts us

2000 years later and how I never want to take it for granted

“I think that's what the chosen is in many ways is is my attempt to make sure that we never take it for granted by”

Looking at the resurrection as this event that we're somewhat distant from Sometimes church can become and many ways a more formal Reverend to approach The man of Jesus Christ that can be very good and be very healthy, but it can also create sometimes a distance I think that the resurrection is an opportunity to go

Jesus of Nazareth We know he was fully God and fully man, but the human side of him came back on that day and appeared to his friends and appeared to his family Because he wanted to make something Very intimate and special communicated to us which is I am with you. I'm among you and I have conquered death Therefore you now can also

Concord death

I'm always trying to refresh the things we already know and make them even more intimate and more authentic as opposed to just being reminded of them

And then looking at them from a distance in a painting or on a Bible reading or in a gathering on a Sunday morning We're all gonna dress up and talk about it. No, this was actually something that really happened that we can participate in

If the resurrection be admitted if you believe in it every other miracle ceases to be improbable If you can do that you can do anything

“Dallas we talked before we hit record that we do a little come follow me program every week where we study a portion of the scriptures”

I'm gonna read from our church's manual on this the lesson this week is on Easter He will swallow up death in victory And this is how the manual starts it says the life of Jesus Christ is central to all human history What does that mean? In part it means that the Savior's life influences the eternal destiny of everyone who has ever lived or ever will live

You might also say that the resurrection of Jesus Christ on that first Easter Sunday connects all of God's people

Throughout history those who were born before his resurrection look forward to it with faith and those born after look back on it with faith As we read Old Testament accounts and prophecies we don't ever see the name Jesus Christ But we do see the evidence of the ancient believers faith in and longing for their Messiah and Redeemer So we who are invited to remember him can feel a connection with those who looked forward to him For truly Jesus Christ has born the iniquity of us all and in Christ shall all be made alive

“Beautiful way to start. Dallas. I think our audience would be really interested in what you can”

Tell us about how to portray the resurrection. I can't imagine How do you make those decisions? Yes. We're gonna keep that. Yes. We're gonna edit that sure. That's got to be overwhelming because it's something of course Hundreds of millions of people are looking forward to There's two ways to approach the resurrection if you are tasked with Recreating it for media in some way as you know it there are multiple accounts in the gospels of what that

Morning was like and who was involved? We can harmonize them, but you go Okay, well Mary Magdalene came by herself at one point then there was a point where all the women came together There was a time where she encountered Jesus She thought he was the gardener. Then there's this other account where they run in the tombs empty and they they talked to two angels Who are dressed in white?

It's a little bit scattered and my job as a story teller making a TV show

“Isn't necessarily to get up in front of a congregation as a pastor or as a lay leader?”

And harmonize all those things and take them through it. The chosen is a TV show. It's meant to be entertaining While also trying as best as possible to be faithful of course to the scriptures, but also authentic even in the moments that aren't Directly from scripture. I don't have the responsibility or the requirement To include every gospel. I want to make sure that I'm not changing things, but it's okay for me to sometimes just go All right, I'm going to choose this portion of scripture and maybe not do that portion of scripture because this portion

Maybe it's more cinematic. Maybe it's more related specifically to our characters That shouldn't be the only factor because obviously biblical fidelity is a high priority as well It's one of multiple factors that makes sense. I want to make sure I get it right But this isn't a documentary Finding the moments from the gospels that kind of add up to a cohesive narrative for a purpose of a TV show as my primary task

The second thing I want to make very clear is that for me from the purpose of the TV show I want to

Capture the heart of the viewer. I'm not just capturing the intellect I'm not just teaching them something. I'm trying to get them to feel something To feel that what took place 2,000 years ago has relevance to them today And that when they watch it if there's an intimate authentic emotional response what we've found In the years that the chosen has been out is that becomes

For so many people a gateway into a more Robust and yes even intellectual relationship with Christ and with the Bible and the gospels It's not that I necessarily learn something new. I felt something new That caused certain things that I've studied to become more alive and more relevant and more personal and more authentic and more intimate But again, it's not new. It's not like my theology is different now because Dallas Jenkins portrayed a scene for me

It's not that it's wow. I'd never thought of it that way. Wow. I'd never felt it that way. Oh, I've heard it

I've intellectually understood it But it hasn't necessarily Reached that part of me that moves us emotionally. That's my primary task. So I've got tools in my tool belt music and Editing and visual effects Also the ability to tie and this is where you guys come in especially with what you're studying right now

The Old Testament to tie the Old Testament to the New Testament the past present in future

And season seven the resurrection season one of the things that I've been able to do is use the power of story the power of visual effects the power of Performance and music and all of those things to

“Actually do something that I think a lot of scholars have done, but maybe not in an emotional way”

Which is tie the past in the present in the future. So while Jesus is on the cross We found a way in season six which hasn't come out yet of course to remind you That what Jesus is doing on the cross was visually and verbally communicated thousands of years before us remoses That Passover Angel the death passing over these homes because of the blood of an innocent lamb

Put in in three marks on a door post left right and above that that actually Visually matches Jesus's wrists and his head on a cross It visually matches what the father told Moses to do When the people were dying of snake bites Putting a brown serpent on to a pole and all they needed to do was look at it to be healed

Jesus reminded Nicodemus of that in John chapter three Well now we can do it visually and now we can tie Moses to Jesus and the old to the new there's a moment when the Apostle John and Mary Magdalene approached Jesus at the cross In season six again none of this has come out yet of course

“Where they're saying them why why does that have to be this way why does that to be so brutal?”

I know you can save yourself at any point we get it We can perhaps go along with you to be arrested and to be deferential But why does it have to be so painful why does it have to be this way? Jesus reminds him of the prophecy from Isaiah and by his wounds we were healed and the chest ties them in upon him brought us peace John says peace this is not peace

Jesus is not yet That's the key that the thing that his crucifixion Promises is that okay right now in this pain in this moment and all of us have gone through this all of us have experienced Pain and sadness and sacrifice and even death To trust that the Savior has a larger plan to trust that God has all of this in his hand in his telling humanity a story of

Redemption is very very difficult But this whole idea of not yet happening during the crucifixion of this does have meaning this does have Import this will bring peace this will bring redemption is fulfilled in the resurrection I don't want to just capture the rolling of the stone and Jesus emerging from the tomb and encountering Mary Magdalene

I actually want you to understand and to feel it said it feels like my Savior my friend my Redeemer has Concredettes so that I can participate in this that might be the longest answer to any question You have done it all of you as dry jacking it, but this has been on my pain for the last year and a half We love to hear it. Jesus on the cross reaching back towards Moses reaching forward to us

“When you remember that Jesus said no man take it for my life from me that it was a willing sacrifice”

You realize he is motivated by pure love. That's what makes it so amazing that

No, they didn't kill him. He offered him. So I have a look like they did maybe, but he offered himself as a willing sacrifice for sure because he also made it clear that he could escape and could prevent it at any point

That's something you gloss over sometimes when you're reading and He outright said to the disciples in the garden of guests. I don't you know at any moment I could just call on legions of angels. Yes, of course I can fix this at any time if I want to Pretraying that is unique. It's like okay, what might that look like and how do we really communicate?

Some of the supernatural elements of this which are always tricky when you're doing

a TV show that's grounded in reality There's a spiritual reality that's tough to portray because you don't know exactly what it looks like For us to put our toe into those waters There's that moment in the garden, of course, where he says I am he to the group that's there to arrest him The power of that knocks them over now. It's kind of a funny thing in Scripture

Like what happened? Why did you do that? What's the aftermath? So we get a chance in the show to portray what does that mean for everybody? So for his disciples They're like hey, do that again. You can okay. You can do that. Easy What's next up? And then he holds his hands out to get handcuffed. You're like wait What does it mean for Judas Judas who is looking at this power portrayed right in front of him?

What does that mean for him? We get to explore all of that in season six which is really fun

It's risky because again you don't know what it would have looked like and you're always like man

I hope this isn't cheesy or weird but we get a chance to explore all that but my point is to support what you're saying

a teaser of a scene or something and there was an executive from one of the studios that were partnered with one of the

“Hollywood studios. But afterwards she's like Jesus knew he was going to die”

She hadn't really made that connection. We take some of those things for granted But the notion that he knew he was going to die and went to Jerusalem anyway This is things we see in season five. He actually told the disciples what was going to happen and they just were like Shoot right over their heads. They thought he was giving you another parable That concept alone could be life altering for millions of people around the world

What you just said when you go he didn't get killed. He gave himself up. He didn't get arrested. He gave himself up. That is a life altering truth That shouldn't be taken for granted because when you realize oh he willingly did this as then he took steps to make it happen Oh, maybe you can even go back to season four you can go back to earlier moments in the gospels Why do you allow Lazarus to die?

Only to resurrect him. Why didn't he just stop in the first place? Well, when you think about the fact that it was a week before his

crucifixion and it's the single thing that stirred up the people and stirred up his enemies ago He did this on purpose. He orchestrated this on purpose. This is a truly jaw-dropping truth when you go goodness. These are chess pieces that are being put into place for the purpose of death that when we're casually reading the scriptures and then this happened and then this happened and then this happened you don't really think about that per se

But for a lot of people it's going to be life-changing truth For my students to be with you all frequently say he's living his ministering crescendo. He's doing this on purpose It's building to a certain moment. He's holding back. He's holding back. He's holding back. He's holding back and that raising of Lazarus leading to the triumphal entry. Now changes everything You mentioned that the disciples they don't really know. They kind of know and especially

afterwards when they're looking back. Oh yeah, but John is the one who's honest and says we didn't really understand. So how do you portray that? He is telling them they don't get it. The biggest struggle of season five is how do we make these guys not total idiots? Right. And even some of the actors especially those who don't know the story as well

“are like so he's not right telling us what's going to happen. That's what we forget sometimes”

in the gospel. He actually says I'm going to die and three days later I'm going to rise again and I'm going to be tortured and get he says all these things and they go yeah, interesting. When we get to heaven who's going to be on your right hand and who's going to be on your left hand? So you got to go why wouldn't they get it? Why would it go over their heads? When Jesus is out right telling it throughout season five we portray and I think it's accurate. I think it's plausible that the disciples

must have just assumed he was giving another parable another figure speech because he does that all the time. Like he was constantly speaking in parable. It's constantly saying he who as years to hear let him hear he was constantly saying you won't get this but others will. I've hidden from understanding some people and others I've revealed it. One of the things that he says in season five at the last supper is that I think explains it. This is from the gospels of course. I'm going

to paraphrase but he says I'm telling you these things now even though you don't understand. Even though you won't even believe really. I'm doing it now so that when it all takes place you can look back and no oh this was God it will help you believe when you see it all play out exactly how I said but right now like he's a teacher just going you don't need to write this down. It won't be on the

“test it'll make sense later. That's how we figured it out but throughout season five and yes even”

some of season six we go back to that well multiple times of the time it was going to wait a second okay

he just got arrested so he said that was going to happen what's next okay well he said there's but that can't be because they wouldn't have a hallway that would have been so incomprehensible that they're Messiah the person who's there to overthrow the Romans and to lead them to a new kingdom they would not have had any understanding of or belief that he was just going to die. When he said it they had to have been going like okay that's a spiritual metaphor or whatever then when it actually

happens it's a total shock to the system and that's what we explore and parts of season six and of course well explore more in season seven. I love it because you're taking the disciples from where they are not from where they are later in life where they are at the moment right they don't know what happens on the next page. Well they're all just learning when Jesus tells Peter cast in it on the other side and Peter he's learning and he says follow me and Peter comes out and

this could be kind of a greater arrangement you tell me where to fish I can get him and this could be a great partnership they were all learning day by day what this was all about and they had their

trials or our confusing scenarios to think back these moments from the gospels of going oh

“that Jesus met us there then as well because we can help you as a viewer identify with these people”

not just as stained glass windows or as names on a page but as human beings like we were and who

struggled and weren't always heroes of the face then we can identify with the answer in the same

way that they did. John knows how much I love Luke 24 these two when they turned to the Lord not knowing it's him and say we thought it was him we were sure it was him obviously it's not we're leaving we're going home whatever it is and he says oh oh you fools yeah as I speak like this morning I sent a text to my co-writers about that passage we're still working it out because it's such a weird thing to try to portray in our TV show is how do they not recognize them who are they

I would assume we scholars agree that it probably wasn't two of the 12 it's a very very strange thing we tried to put it into a TV show format we're still actually working it out having quite

cracked the code yet but if we're hoping to get there everybody goes through that in life those

those Luke 24 moments where you said it didn't happen the way I I was sure it was going to happen we start to doubt him instead of doubt what we hoped what we thought what's expressed in that

“historian's scripture is terrific and we that's why we want to we thought about not including”

that story because it's so odd in terms of how to portray it I didn't want to be distracting we are ultimately kind of like I don't think the viewers will forgive us if we leave that one out because there's not a whole lot of moments in the scriptures post-resurrection we've got a whole season to try to cover and if one of the very few from the scriptures we just decided to leave out that would be unforgivable we're just trying to figure out how to do it I mean the whole idea of like I

guess we were wrong I portrayed this concept to not the road to Emmaus but back when I was doing short films and then yet about the crucifixion at my church between 2010 and 2015 which is in my training ground for the chosen we did a short film about that time in between the crucifixion

in the resurrection which is which you never see portrayed the disciples in hiding what were they

talking about what were they doing and one of the lines was from the character of Thomas who says will he can't be the Messiah now obviously why waste our time on the others are like what are you talking about are you crazy you saw the miracles he's like well yeah but he's dead the Messiah can't be dead it's just common sense I've been wrestling with that for 15 years what would it been like in that time between Friday and Saturday or whatever day of the week we want to describe it

“for the apostles they had to be so confused that's why the road to Emmaus is so interesting”

that when the Bible says Jesus' presence was you know his identity hidden from them and then it was revealed to them at the last moment and he disappears it would have been so incomprehensible for them to be talking to Jesus that you have to wonder even if he showed up in front of them that they would have believed it I mean you read the gospels and who is the Messiah of popular expectation it was more of a I'm gonna deliver you from the Romans Jesus was like

if we have tougher enemies like sin and death but we're they expecting more of a political Messiah at the time yeah that's what then causes additional confusion that the apostles and we see it even in the writings of Luke and Paul that the whole the completed understood gospel that we have now atonement and redemption and all those things they still wouldn't have fully gotten it yet when he comes back and they still are saying so now are you gonna restore the kingdom even before

the sentient they were like I assume you've come back to now you're gonna do it we've expected for thousands of years good point we get it you died to prove the whole resurrection is possible that you've conquered death a lot of an innocent lamb sacrifice atonement good we got it now let's kill the Romans he's like nope you're now supposed to go spread the word oh great we'll go tell all our Jewish friends family no no Gentiles too what wait what there's so much that they

still didn't fully understand all the way through his ascension yeah yeah in the resurrection as I read the gospels the apostles here the Savior dies is resurrected the skeptic might say oh he

he died after there is a experience is with the resurrected Lord they're completely different yeah the outsider the skeptic can say if you don't believe in the resurrection Jesus didn't resurrect his body was hidden or whatever it was how do you explain that in the weeks after Christ's death the disciples got bold and then especially after the 40 day mark they've turned into by some objective measures practically suicidal right heading right back into the wolves oh I'm

I'm not only gonna go hard I'm gonna go have harder than I've ever gone let me go to places

“that I've never been I'm gonna dive into the lions den and if you want to kill me that has no”

impact on my confidence level or joy they saw something and you know it's someone that gave them that confidence because you know they had to have been devastated by his death they had to have been confused they had to have been I guess we were wrong very Magdalene goes and tells the apostles who are hidden and they don't believe her Peter and John at least go to check we don't know for sure if where they were on the spectrum of belief or disbelief but we do know they went to check

they saw the empty tomb and then immediately went home because they got in this message from Mary because Jesus said tell them to go straight to Galilee well we show that Peter especially I'm not messing around ever again I'm not questioning I'm not doubting I'm not pushing back on Jesus when he says go to Galilee I'm leaving the tomb and I'm going straight to Galilee I've denied him three times I have argued with him when he asked me to ask his feet I've been a thorn in his side

no pun intended multiple times I'm going to Galilee now that's it yeah I'm sure that a lot of our listeners would love to know more of your backstory Dallas and I thought you told it so beautifully

“at the BYU devotional I want to say October of 2024 I think it's on speeches.bYU.edu this is what”

I love about Dallas Jenkins and we've never met personally I want everybody to watch that

devotional but I also loved how the Lord touched you and said your job is just to bring the five lows and two fishes all through the rest can you describe the way he first did that and the way he came later and said that again because that just made me go wow I run into so many LDS friends or viewers of the show around the country sometimes so many of them bring up that forum where I got a chance to speak it it'd be why you to the students and community there's something

especially poignant about whenever God works through failure and works through our lack and our desperation as opposed to working through success I think it's especially wonderful when we see things that have become successful and the chosen can be identified

“objectively as a successful project of course but that it wasn't always that way and that it could”

only have existed through failure and struggle including my own our company is called five and two studios which you see now at the beginning of each episode five and two is referring to the moment in my life that I was at my lowest I had just done a movie that had high hopes and I had worked with some of the top producers and distribution companies in Hollywood and I'd finally achieved but I or at least the opportunity to achieve what I had been seeking for a long time which was

impact and global success and legitimacy that was my drug of choice was legitimacy and affirmation and now I was getting that and certainly about to get it even more and then this movie completely bombed and failed and I was confused and frustrated and devastated and I'm home alone with my wife and God points us to the story the feeding of the five thousand again my wife was

sensitive to the spirit in a way that I'm not even always he's just putting it on her heart

my LDS friends often refer to it as an impression we in evangelical community would say God speaks to your heart when he put something on your heart he's like read the story the feeding of the five thousand she's like I don't know why but we're supposed to read that story we're reading it and we're seeing some things we hadn't seen before and we found it really interesting that Jesus brought them to the place of hunger it wasn't like it just happened and then he came in and

saved the day he actually was responsible for the need she's the one who'd been talking for three days it was his fault they were so hungry and had gone without food for so long that was really interesting and something I hadn't really thought of of like okay just because we're in this desperate devastated hungry place it can often make you feel like well God must not be in this

because God's not the author of failure that's what we always tell ourselves or have been taught and

oh no no many times in fact I would say most of the time depending on your theology but my theology is that God has the world in his hands and is oftentimes provincial in the failure and in the struggle and in the hunger so we were really thinking okay what does this mean then does this mean that we're about to see this big miracle and the numbers are going to magically turn around at the box office and that didn't happen and so we're just kind of like what has

got half of us in this why why did he put us to this story and was this even God's voice I mean sometimes you you feel like something from the spirit and then you follow through on it and sometimes it just means that you had your own human instinct and you don't know if God's voice or not well that night at four in the morning I'm doing an analysis of everything that went wrong I've got a 15-page memo going and right out of the blue just pops up on my computer screen

there's this message on Facebook from someone I'd never actually met we just were Facebook friends

“and he didn't even say hello he just said remember your job is not to feed the five thousand”

it's only to provide the loaves and fish and I told this story hundreds of times that every time it still makes me emotional because it's like really to that place of in that moment when you're actively seeking an answer and to actively seeking understanding and then you're doing it on your own going all right I'm going to analyze and I'm going to use all my strengths that God gave me of problem solving and analysation and then this guy just pops this thing and

to answer everything you've been wondering about all day and I immediately go what are you doing up at four in the morning and he's like well man I'm on the other side of the world and I'm like well then why did you tell me that? It goes all that wasn't me God told me to tell you that God had put on his heart just as strongly as he had my wife to tell Dallas this and he was like well I don't want to do that I barely know the guy and that's a condescending thing to say to someone who's

“going through a big failure you just said God just kept pounding it on my heart so he did it”

a change in my life in that moment because I knew two things one God is real and present and is active in this moment and is trying to speak to me and to the truth of Dallas you keep feeling

so responsible for the results and it's okay to analyze and it's okay to have goals but ultimately

your job is to make the best five loads and two fish that you can and whatever that is then when I deem them worthy of acceptance the transactions over the growth the impact is up to me sometimes we can in our attempt to be righteous we can forget about grace what I loved about that time that I was speaking at the forum was for a lot of this even those who were older were like yeah sometimes I feel a sense of responsibility whether it's in my job or in my ministry even

to measure it by the numbers and the growth and think about all the things you guys do in your faith that are unique to your faith that are measured and especially Neil Diaz Church such an entrepreneurial spirit building something from scratch is like the hallmark of your culture and seeing it grow and seeing it have impact either spiritually or financially and to go okay I need to take the responsibility off my shoulders of thinking past what God is going to do it just trust and giving

“him my best five loads and two fish that's why we call it our studio that is because it's just a”

constant reminder and an industry that measures you by the numbers in the box office we have to

remind ourselves that that's not the goal the tone of voice that God had with me the first time he

said this to me through this friend oh it was reassuring it was comforting it was you're feeling so low Dallas just you take this burden off you you're not responsible for the feeding of the five thousand years responsible for the loaves of fish this comforting voice well now you can fast forward five seven years later by every objective measure I've achieved way more than I ever set out to I've gotten way more affirmation and legitimacy and awards and box office than I ever

would have dreamed back in my years where those things mattered to me God is a different tone of voice he's like Dallas it is not your job to feed the five thousand you did not feed the five thousand you were responsible for the loaves and fish it's a good and healthy and important reminder Dallas if someone wants to make Easter a bigger deal in their family in their home besides watching season six and seven which they're going to be able to over the next couple of

years what do you do what would you say is a something to bring it to life I love these conversations because as you probably know the birth of the chosen includes a lot of LDS folks who I got a chance to meet in the distribution side and the marketing side my co-founder of five into studios derelives as we were getting to know each other and recognizing that I was going to be embarking on this journey with several members of the church I had questions myself and

trying to understand some of the differences in theology and one of the things I admire about you know this folks is you guys are very well behaved very tucked in now occasionally I'll

church on our Easter service we would say I've seen you cheer during a bears game I've seen you

“celebrate multiple sporting events or graduations what is the most celebratory and joyous”

and exciting moment and victory in the history of the world that we get to participate in it's the resurrection of Christ why is it that when we announce and celebrate the resurrection of Christ we clap but in church we're maybe a little more tucked in like this should be the most joyous and celebratory thing we can possibly do the music that we sing and experience during our Easter

services was always the most celebratory you know we're not what we call in the evangelical

old pentacostralic charismatic it's we're not moving and grooving too often but during some of the songs it's what if we jump up and out a little bit what if we have our hands in there this isn't now we normally are but let's do it well what better way to celebrate than this what's interesting about that is because the church that I was part of for 10 years when I was developing the chosen was a very storied ribbon church our pastor was a great storyteller our good Friday services were equally

sad and dark we would do because we were church of over 12,000 attendees across six seven campuses so when we would do a good Friday service we'd put on this good Friday service eight times for thousands of people at a time upwards of 15, 16, 17,000 people would show up over the course of Friday in multiple locations we encourage people to wear black the music and the performances and yes even the short films that I did cast Jonathan Rumi as Jesus they were

not celebratory and exciting and and fun it was it was a serious occasion it was like a funeral

which then made Sunday morning services that much more powerful and exciting and beautiful and

wonderful and joyous I appreciate the reverence of the different people within different faith traditions and that some faith traditions even within the evangelical church are a little bit more tucked in than others but I would say it's okay to express as much joy or more in the resurrection of your savior as it is the student that hit a half quart shot that I just saw the BYU game on Friday and seeing all these LDS folks just going crazy I'm like you so I know

you can do it I know it in you it's okay to do it in the context of the greatest moment in the history of the world yeah that's fantastic I do think I'm going to do that more with my children this year let's celebrate the first time I feel a little bit awkward but it's like come on let's go for it the disciples I mean you know Mary Magdalene had to run to go tell the disciples John and Peter then sprinted to the two like there was physical exertion taking place with this great

“news and I think it's okay for us to show some of that some time yeah I think that's wonderful”

one thing that Latter Day Saints believe not all of them know that we believe this the Lord speaks to all men and women everywhere in fact one a statement from a first presidency back in the 1900s we believe that God has given and will give to all people sufficient knowledge to help them on their way to eternal salvation so I would love for our listeners who are predominantly Latter Day Saints to hear your testimony of the Lord you know if you wouldn't mind

letting us into your heart and what he means to you absolutely every time I speak it be

why you or I come on podcast like yours or I come into LDS territory it's always kind of the

elephant for the room of all right well the evangelical guest has the microphone I always want to honor the fact that I'm a guest on your podcast and this is your home turf I appreciate the opportunity

“to share my approach and my perspective on Christ I think evangelicals really lean into we”

lean into as much as as humanly possible Ephesians two for it is by grace you are saved through faith and not not of yourselves but as a gift of God no I've found that in the evangelical world LDS world Catholic world all the different faith traditions there tends to be a bit of a spectrum over the role of grace the role of faith versus the role of works and the role of action like I said every tradition has its own strengths and weaknesses I think that we

Protestant evangelicals are to a fairly good job of really leaning into the grace side the faith side I personally have had a fairly healthy grasp as long as I can remember of my small role in my own salvation now I want to make sure I'm clear when I say that obviously we have

scripture talking about pursuing righteousness and pursuing even perfection and the choice to

follow Jesus what he asks of us in his commandments in the Old Testament and what he asks of us

“in the Gospels so I'm fully aware that we have a role but I think that for me I have always been”

most comfortable at the edge of the red sea recognizing that okay he may ask me to strike the rock because he wants me to participate in this but he doesn't need me to participate in this part of he could have part of the red sea without Moses he obviously has the ability to do that the mystery comes in when why does he ask Moses to strike the rock why does he ask the Israelites to camp out at the edge of the red sea for several days knowing that this would put them in peril

and put them in a trapped position why does he ask us to gather five loaves and two fish when he could easily multiply it among the five thousand himself without even needing something to start with we know he can do that but the mystery is why he invites us to participate in it and I don't have all those answers but I've been most comfortable recognizing that okay I will strike the rock okay I will bring the five loaves and two fish but whether it comes to the impact that my life

has or even my own salvation less of me more of God it is by grace you are saved through faith the grace of God the grace of Christ is the foundation to my salvation to my belief and the works part the what do we do for Christ is not to gain favor it's not to earn a better place it's not to achieve a higher level or enlightenment it is out of gratitude and it is as a response to what he

has done for us that we will never fully live up to that is where I've been most at peace and most

comfortable in my interpretation of scripture get us out of that that the chosen is birthed that's beautiful Dallas our team member Lisa Spice she had a great question she said what's one gospel story you didn't fully appreciate until you had to build it seen by scene yeah I hadn't actually had that question before if you're gonna be tasked with portraying Jesus to the world you better know him well that applies to specific scenes and moments there are two stories I'm

going to say three three that really come to mind where they took longer than normal to figure out what does this phrase mean and what does this reference mean and what's the context of it one of

“them was the woman at the well I don't know exactly how many verses it is but I think it's somewhere in”

the neighborhood of 12 that's this conversation between Jesus and this woman and there's so much context clearly that from the personal five husbands to the cultural Samaritans and Jews didn't talk to each other Jesus is alone with a woman which single Jewish men didn't do they're talking about mountains and temples and all these things that are very out of context and in a relatively short amount of time she goes from fearing him and distrusting him to running crazily into the

city to tell everyone that he's the Messiah from a storytelling perspective it's not a good scene the character journey is way too quick it skip steps how do we show her journey in a plausible way unpacking all of that and learning the history and learning the cultural context it took me a couple of weeks to really fully understand the meaning of the scene and of the story and then what would be the triggers along the way in the conversation that would slowly melt her defenses and

cause her to then ultimately become the first evangelist in some ways that was a story that we were able to unpack and then put it throughout the episode and set it up in scenes that don't even

“include her such as when they're on the journey towards where they're headed I don't even remember where it is”

they're like we need to go around Samaria he goes no we're going to go through it oh no we don't do that Jesus and then he explains why and then he ends up there in the middle of the day why is she there in the middle of the day when women would have gone at the beginning of the day because it was so hot oh because she's an outcast okay that's interesting why she an outcast all of these things make the story

in the scriptures that much more powerful and beautiful that's something you don't get if you

just do a literal verse by verse reenactment the same thing is true of the healing at the pool of Bethesda just a handful of verses but when you talk about okay what's this weird thing this tradition that they believed at the time that they could just go into the pool if it was stirred up by an angel and this guy's been there for decades why didn't he get healed what is the history

that's really interesting okay he's been there for decades I've listened to a few sermons about it

“and that psychology of it of Jesus saying do you want to be healed why would he say that like it's”

such an obvious question maybe it's not maybe it's like us where we sometimes become addicted to our own victimization we did come addicted to our own malady you guys as leaders I'm sure and you maybe you've experienced this personally we have people who you give them the tools to overcome or plow through or survive their malady or their struggle you can tell they just aren't really ready to

give it up because it's their identity so you go okay wow that's a part of this too my third one

just because this came to mind is Jesus coming home to Nazareth to preach in the synagogue to preach the passage from Isaiah about I've come to bring good news to the poor and when you start to unpack the year of Jubilee and what that meant and what his hometown friends and family would have thought of him and why what he says is so offensive we go from in just a handful of verses people loving him and giving him permission to speak in a synagogue to wanting him dead that is so fast what could have

happened when you unpack all that it's like oh that makes more so oh wow that informs this oh wow that informs rest of the season that's the kind of stuff that you appreciate even more when you put it into the form of a story as opposed to an anecdote this is going to sound like a pun

when I was hooked on the chosen wasn't the fish the throwing the net on the other side so to speak

because with the other disciples are running they are sprinting it brought me to tears watching the joy and the surprise when Peter cast an end on the other side and then there's a brief moment where Jesus looked up I thought he's looking up he's saying thank you father I mean that's what I got from it and I thought this we watched that so many times in my house over and over because we thought it was so beautifully done and I felt differently about that thing I bet there were

smiles I bet there was joy I bet there was what just happened that that brought that to life for me you're bringing up what remains one of my favorite scenes we've ever done one of the reasons this is my favorites is because so much of it was out of my control some of the visual effects the last minute nature of some of the ways that scene came together and it reminded me that this project is bigger than I am and better than I'm capable of which I really loved but the

“music of that scene I remember when the composer was first sent it to me and it was so much”

different than what I kind of expected it was so joy yes it was like it was like an Irish jiggle most and I'm like yes this is what this should be I feel like it's okay for me to say this because as you know I'm honored even jellicle mascot of the LDS church so I've been granted favorite to say certain things maybe others can't say I would say that there's such a reverence and there's such a genuine respect for Christ which is great you guys probably do that better than we even

jellicles do it but sometimes it can lead to a formality and I've seen it in paintings I've seen it in some of the LDS videos and portrayals of Christ is very formal he looks and sounds like he's quoting King James Bible which he is and again this comes from a good place of of honoring scripture but fidelity is scripture just it feels like a reenactment of a scripture one of the things that makes a scene like what you just described really work is a the portrayals of course

the acting the fun the wings the laughter some of those moments that aren't spelled out in scripture but you know undoubtedly what would have happened but also because of the setup and what we believe is plausible because of historical context of how desperate the Jews were to make a living under oppressive Roman occupation what it must have been like and why Peter must have been up all night trying to fish and what are the circumstances that would have led him to be that desperate

because we take the time to portray that then when you see the victory when you see Christ

“come in and literally save the day it's that much more meaningful and emotional that's what”

the secret sauce of the show is is it not a replacement for the scriptures it's not better than the scriptures it helps put a spotlight on those moments from scripture and personalized and make you go oh of course because of that you can then go huh my circumstances are similar to Simon circumstances or some of the circumstances of the folks who Jesus encountered perhaps the answer to my struggles the answer to my questions to my doubts can be fulfilled in the same way that they

were for them I teach the New Testament at BYU and as I was watching the chosen I kept saying this is the Jesus I teach so I hope you're right Dallas because this is the United teaching me too believe you me if I'm wrong I got a lot to answer for yeah I feel like we're doing okay so far

but yeah I'm never taken my foot off the gas pedal and never making sure that I constantly

am checking myself and that's why I have of course a lot of accountability among my team and my

because I know that I still haven't captured everything there is to know about Christ

putting a spotlight on it immediately you want to go get the actual account and read that again

“and read it now with some visuals that you've supplied that's what I love is if that gets anybody”

to open the scriptures and look at it that's awesome and that's what it's done for me you've blessed me bless my children we love watching there to be honest I thought I don't know if I can watch the season six because I love this Jesus I'm just like this is gonna be hard to watch but maybe maybe that's a good thing yeah we hear that often a lot of times we'll show a behind the scenes clip or I'll say something about season six and you'll hear a lot of people

going I don't know that I can watch it I hope that people actually go through with watching it because I do think that the reasons why they're nervous to watch it are valid it's important for us to put ourselves as much as possible into the heads and hearts of his followers and yes even some of his opponents to go where do I stand where do I fit into this story I will say this yes it's going to be painful it's not gonna be just a torture fest in some ways it might be harder because

we'd spent so much time with Jesus and with his followers in the context of the show that all it takes is a simple look from his mother or from one of his closest friends to Rekus emotionally I have more tools in my tool belt than the average Jesus portrayal because of the previous five seasons of relationship and worldbuilding that we've been doing but all that to say it should be hard I don't think we should be shielding ourselves or our kids from the experience of the emotional

and yes even spiritual pain that we have to go through that he went through

we can experience a taste of his suffering will never fully of course understand it

“and experience it never to just get a taste of it is important I think it helps us in our pursuit”

to be like Christ that's something that my Catholic friends do well we think all of our faith traditions have various strengths and weaknesses and some of the times those are the same thing something I've learned from some of my Catholic friends including Jonathan who plays Jesus is that leaning into an embracing Christ suffering is not a bad thing in many ways it can be a very important thing because it draws us closer to the Father and I will say this it will make season seven

that much more exciting you don't want to skip season six yeah joy from season seven will be that much sweeter because we've experienced some of the pain of season six to take grief out of life you have to take love out of life we experience that grief the reunion the rejoicing is that much more beautiful because of it the TV show isn't the end game we're not gonna be watching TV shows and haven't this is a

gateway this is a guide this is a handholding this is a supplement to what you guys are doing and what Bible does my friend John Hilton III he has made almost a career out of helping teachers use elements of the chosen yeah John's great when I see that I go this is exactly what we want to be done I believe that the proof of God's hand in the storytelling of the show is in what happens when the viewer see it if this was replacing the Bible for them if they

came away from this show going this is a version of Jesus I like better than the Bible therefore I'm gonna watch the chosen instead of reading my Bible or whatever it is that would be a major

“problem one that I would not want and would seek to correct the good news is the only thing we hear”

about the chosen when it comes to people's relationship with the Bible is that it's causing them

to read it more it's causing the read it for the first time it's causing them to ask more questions

on their ever had we find the same thing with our show that people would say I'm into the scriptures more than I've ever been which we take that as a compliment and my sister Shantel out in Florida she does not miss an episode of the chosen she doesn't miss any of the premieres of the movies it's turned her into a Bible loving sister where she she likes scripture before I think sorry Shantel if you're listening no I believe that I mean I think that's true

of all of us including myself the show for me like there are times and I don't think it's wrong to admit this where you you open the scriptures as a duty you're not excited about it you've read it before you try to get something new you don't sometimes that happens no one is successful 365 days a year at the Bible is the joy of my life and I can't wait to unopack it no I mean it's like no one bats a thousand when it comes to excitement we want to have but that's why

we sometimes listen music attention listen to pastors and read a book and it helps supplement and it helps bring certain things to life more even I have at times open the scriptures and gone

because I've got a picture on my head now and I've got a little bit more context than I did before

“and now something that felt a little strange or distant is feeling more personal and that's okay I”

think that's a good thing Dallas tell us about your family and how they've taken all of this and have they given you any ideas or is your wife say what about this or do you bounce ideas off of her for sure as a family it's been really beautiful because a we've seen God work on our own lives I mean when I left my job to pursue this the moment that we officially launched it everything went wrong in our lives I mean the medical bills right after I lost all of our benefits

from the job I'd have it's like we and I'm not exaggerating to say we had 10 times the medical

crises and bills and three months that we'd had in 20 years combined previously I didn't have

income we were crowdfunding and all this so to watch God show up during those times and to guide our family through it and to go through and to see where things are now it has been really beautiful to see the other thing is we're not free from the lessons of each season I mean 2025 was the hardest season of our family's life significant medical crises significant relational and emotional challenges that are unprecedented in our family you'd think well now that the show's a global

success and now that we've got more career and financial security you're at the helm of this movement of God around the world things are obviously going to go better and they've gotten at least in the flesh and our human experience gotten much worse it's been really beautiful as a parent to see my kids and my wife and myself that the content of the show has at times been a reminder and a lesson and some of the things that are in the show come out of our own personal experience

that I believe God puts us through to remind us and to be in this place if you're going to be

“portraying these stories you need to understand that that's been a painful but also beautiful thing”

to experience my wife is the head of our literary content Bible studies devotional books kids books we've got a couple dozen written products that are designed to help disciple and to go deeper into these stories that my wife is at the helm of and then when we're doing the show a lot of times I'll run something past her does this make sense does this work what do you think of this quick example was I remember in season one when Jesus is calling Simon to follow him and they're about

to leave for a journey we know from scripture Simon's mother-in-law it was gravely ill well that's what of course Tia tells you that Simon was married and we get to explore his marriage in season one I was thinking when Jesus goes to heal her which we see in scripture what are some ways again that we can make this personal and relatable and that's when I was working on that scene and I thought oh what if Jesus is doing this less for Peter and more for Peter's wife

because Peter's about to leave and his wife is going to be left alone caring for her mother that's an interesting connection to the fact that Jesus recognizes that his calling on Peter Simon at the time is also a calling on his wife that's when this phrase popped into my head I see you and Jesus telling Peter's wife I see you and I know that this is your ministry as much as it is Simon's I thought that was plausible and very Christlike and I went and I tell

that told Amanda she immediately started crying so I knew I was onto something and she said so many spouses who are married to ministry leaders or missionaries or TV show creators oftentimes are left out of the rewards of the calling you get to see all the feedback you get to be out in the field you get to experience this closeness with Christ sometimes it comes from seeing ministry in action and spouses oftentimes feel left out or unseen especially

wives who are raising children and I know that some husbands do that as well but predominantly wives are at home raising children when their husbands are off and to hear I see you I know that this

“is a sacrifice for you too she says I believe there's going to be people whose lives are”

changed all over the world sure enough while we were filming it I remember I'm walking out and our producers were like at the monitors and they're all like oh we were just calling our wives and we were hired and I'm seeing you I see you and then we heard from people all over the world about

that scene and how many people that ministered to we always feel like if we're learning these lessons

at home if the show is an outpouring of what's God is teaching us about himself and about the scriptures then it will impact the viewer as well John and I think often of our wives Kim and Sarah we hear all the time then we John oh the show is changing my life oh I love your podcast really our wives are the backbone of this and along with our team in their spouses yes

you directly about the impact that a tad to why I try to share it with my family as much as possible

“of look at the life that was just changed because of the sacrifices we've made together you know”

we both married above ourselves didn't we Hank but that math you character I just love who he's so good at math I mean when he sees the the fishes he's like wait this doesn't make sense it just like rocks his world he just I can't wrap my head around this and then him being a publican because he's so good at numbers and facts I just loved it yeah yeah that's the kind of thing that you unpack as you're studying the characters is you start looking at character traits and how do we what can

we mind from scripture that can inform our portrayal of a human being you want to start with scripture

first you find little things little hints that explain who these people might be and when you're

putting it together with Matthew and I I'm very familiar with autism and Nassburgers and it's in my family and I've done a lot of volunteer work and so I just know it very well and I'm like oh this

“is interesting these are traits of someone on the spectrum wouldn't that be on the beach disruptive”

to portray a Bible character as being on the spectrum it's not impossible it's so humanizing we would put that decision on the Mount Rushmore of the top decisions that we made of most connected people to the show all over the world Matthew that character is second only to Jesus in terms of the connection that people have had and the the number of people who have autism and their family had the number of people that spoken to and made them realize that Jesus calls everybody

to follow him and he has to even lead some time yeah that was for sure a god moment you credit Amanda for that yeah she cast Paris and then part of because some of this struggling he was having in his audition just felt very Matthewesque but here what's fun too is you get to then develop a character arc over the course of multiple seasons and and Matthew as someone who is on the spectrum season five he's saying things that surprised me I'm okay with because it leads to more learning

and I know I need that I don't handle surprise very well but I know it's good for me shock on the other hand makes me question what I've understood previously and Jesus says or he says above all you seek understanding and Matthews says above all I seek you Jesus says well then you are already understand but that woman alone just most of them even thinking about it but it's like to get

to that place where you're willing to just say I can't always understand we all have limits

for me it's my brain and and that I'm on the spectrum and I can't so I have to make a choice either to only follow the things that makes sense and my structured brain or I'm willing to seek you and follow whatever you say and to see that happen to Matthew over the course of multiple seasons I think is what I can give the viewer a sense of of intention and hope as well that's beautiful one of the things that's always intrigued me is Peter saying well

I go afishing okay we'll go with you and I wondering how you're going to portray that was Peter just thinking well I guess we go back to our former life we certainly get into this idea of tell me to go to Galilee don't know exactly why I got to provide for my family there's no more ministry now that's being supported again that's where you look at the scripture and you go

“okay it doesn't tell us what's in his head but you have to assume that he's going back fishing”

because he's got no choice it's not him who he's got a wife to provide for and he can't wait around per se they got eat they got to provide we get to explore some of that for sure also and I don't want to give too much away but there's the question of who Jesus appears to win there's a plausible narrative when you construct the timeline of the gospels because it is hard to synchronize sometimes but what if Jesus physically appeared to multiple people before he

appeared to Peter Peter's supposed to be the rock the leader but yet he shows himself to multiple people before he shows himself to Peter we want to portray a little bit of that of maybe Peter's doubting himself going is Jesus punishing me for denying him three times and that beautiful scene on the shore and no scholars have different opinions over what was meant by Jesus asking him if he loved him three times and fishing the repeat of the but you're not on the other side of the

boat all these things I personally think that at least part of it is that Jesus is giving Peter three chances to be redeemed from the three times he denied him he was asked do you know Jesus and he said no three times when I was being asked do you love me three times I thought there's something cinematic about that that I perceive as he's going you fell three times I'm going to give you three

stuff that you guys I'm sure have unpacked many times that we have some time to explore and play with there's a lot of mystery about why are they fishing again well okay why wouldn't he be fishing he's got

“to do something right you have to explore all that you can always count on the chosen”

to at the very least whether it's right or wrong whether you agree or disagree I'm sure in five

seasons of television there's been some things you guys would have done differently you can always

at least count on we're going to explore the humanity and the reality and the authenticity of it and then leave the theology which will be imbued into some of it of course but that's for you guys to then unpack you know and use the show and the Bible as a place to unpack all of that that will definitely give you the human reality of what would have taken place during that time beautiful Dallas let's point to some of the places where people can get the chosen and also the other projects

that you are doing that people might not even know about those who love the show they might not know about the animated series of the books can you go through all of those yeah as we speak I'm putting some of the finishing touches on some episodes of our Joseph mini series this is a project that we

“filmed last year it's an eight part mini series meaning it's not a multi-season show it's one”

season and it's called Joseph the VJP and it's the story of Joseph of the Old Testament this is one that I didn't personally show run the showrunner is the one who kind of oversees the writing and the filmmaking I'm the final say it's ultimately my project my company's project so I supervised our showrunner and our directors and obviously everything ultimately has to go through me and it has to pass our biblical consultants and all of that that's a project that was financed and will be

distributed by prime video Amazon prime video sometime in 2027 we want to always communicate

that the Old Testament and the New Testament are very inherently linked but now we get a chance to really explore it even further we've got the animated show that's out right now so the first season is on prime video also the chosen adventures is the name of it we release first at least by the time people are listening to this podcast I'm going to think there's probably five or six

“episodes released on YouTube you just search for the chosen adventures on YouTube and you'll find it”

we release one episode every few weeks that's been really cool because the response that has been overwhelming adults as well loving it because it's showing we took the the characters of Joshua and Abby Abigail from episode three of season one where Jesus meets a group of children those two are kind of what happens after they met Jesus and their lives and as children in the Copernan and experiencing some of the stories of Jesus but also just their own lives as

kids and some of the biblical truths and moral truths that we really get to explore in a different medium of animation so there's more humor kids as young as two years old can appreciate a show like this where the chosen although the chosen is appealed to far more young kids and expected and you're going under the age of six seven eight is going to have a hard time understanding a lot of it but the urban adventures is a little bit more geared towards that when you go to the chosen

gifts.com I don't want to give a bunch of websites you can just look it up it's not difficult to find but you look for our gift store we really make sure that all of our gifts we call them gifts not merch because we're not trying to just sell product here we really want these to be given away we want you to go deeper into the stories even when we have a t-shirt the t-shirt will have phrases on it or things that are designed to raise questions to start conversations to not just promote the show

but to start a cultural conversation about Jesus that doesn't normally happen and so a lot of people who watch the show aren't aware of that and when they are aware of it it really does engage you even more and take you deeper in the scripture it makes it easier to do the same with your friends and family yeah in fact one of your shirts has a nice saying on the back that John and I like it's called follow him right on the back yes yes I'd like to say you guys gave us

some sponsorship money for that but I must have got to do that you're a direct the front of the shirt is a quote from Matthew in season four where he says I have only one thing to do each day follow him so on the back it just says follow him I won't be pointing people to your show hopefully who's the character that surprised you the most as the story unfolded something you didn't see coming

I would say conscious pilot we always knew we wanted to explore his story as well

because it's really fascinating when you think about this supposedly powerful man is faced with this decision that should be fairly innocuous it's one person and he punts he doesn't make a decision either way he just kind of says all right I'm washing my hands of it but I'll let you guys handle it yourselves and yes we'll cooperate he doesn't

a whole lot of in the scriptures about him he could have been any age in fact it was entirely

plausible that he was younger in the position that he was in it wouldn't have necessarily been a military position it could have just been a political one he's clearly in over his head he did some things that that got him in trouble even with his superiors like Tiberius was very angry at pilot for overreacting at one point he ordered the slaughtering of a bunch of Jewish potential rebels and it got him in trouble with the Romans the Romans were like no no dude that's not what we want

like he was almost on probation in some ways he meets Jesus and is like he doesn't seem like a threat I know a threat when I see one why can't I just let him go and they're like no and he's just forced into this situation doesn't want to be in the portrayal made sense we started leaning into that you see a pilot that initially for some people it was very hard to under they were like he feels young there's a personality about him that for a lot of viewers was very

“so surprising that a hard time with it and now it has really for a lot of viewers I think”

would say they would answer the same to your question like I did not expect that but then over time

it started to make more sense when you see it in season six when you see him finally meet Jesus

and when you see him finally face this decision or hundreds of people are screaming at him it I think will be more impactful and relatable and and I think the scripture will make even more sense than ever before Dallas you know who got me was Nicodemus I loved his portrayal I loved that he is so conflicted he's like hey I'm presenting it as symposium buddy wants to go listen to Jesus there's a scene where his wife says I love our life just thought me how could I give this up if I

really so it goes to visit John the Baptist I just thought his portrayal was so good and you brought things out in that whole thing about trying to keep my marriage and my prestige together but what if Jesus really is Messiah he's got his foot in both the religious leadership which we wanted to portray he's got his foot in belief in Jesus the scriptures mentioned that he meant Jesus at night he didn't make his belief in Jesus public why would that be well it's okay that makes sense he's a leader

think of what he would have had to give up and so a lot of the things that we came up with to show both why he would consider Jesus as Messiah whenever one else around a myth and then also why he wouldn't give up his life to follow Jesus that was a really really fascinating thing to portray and as a viewer it should be a reminder to us when we read Bible stories to think about that context and to go okay so John chapter three it's the most famous chapter in the Bible that includes

the most famous verse in the Bible but there's a whole large amount of things going on around that that are just as interesting that cannot put a spotlight on it love that humility there too of

“yeah this is my portrayal oh yeah yeah that's why we say before episode one it's I mean like”

the and I say it all the time I am not God Jonathan does not Jesus this show is not the Bible even when we make joke sometimes on social media and someone will go oh that's blasphemous there will in her like no no blasamy is blasoming against the real Jesus this is Jonathan on set he's an actor he's a human being he's flawed I'm flawed we're making jokes about ourselves sometimes we're doing it so that you can better separate us from the real thing we don't want you to be

swayed from what the real thing is because we definitely know the difference this question will make sense then to try to separate actors and directors from the actual Bible something that's happened behind the scenes funny mishab something happened were you you might go oh man you wouldn't have

believed this went wrong I mean we've had the really wonderful moments of I know people always

love to hear this that almost without exception whenever the actors are quoting scripture so a lot of their dialogue isn't directly from scripture but when it is or when they're reenacting a moment where Jesus is calling them or asking them to choose to believe in them or not or healing them or even rebuking them a lot of the actors end up having abnormally emotional experiences

“that are even outside of what the scene called for that I think helps prove that scripture does”

not return void that even when it's in the context of a performance on a set that scripture makes a difference and we've had a lot of people on our set cast and crew of the dramatically impacted by something directly from scripture the funny stuff the quirky stuff is it's a stuff that keeps us sane I mean I think of the miracle of the fish that you mentioned John that you loved when he puts the net on the outside of the boat the ridiculousness of filming that scene where

of it to add weight and floating to help it float and we put that in a net and we tell the

“actors push this green tarp filled with green water balloons into the boat and if you can do that”

that'll be successful because later we're going to replace that green with a bunch of fish they're grabbing on to the tarp and you're like no no you can't do that because those are going to be fish sometimes he's crazy things that are so ridiculous in the filming of the walking on water and how they're suspended by wires and then they're falling into the water sometimes and all these things that are so clunky

even when we're filming the crucifixion there are times when Jonathan I have to just otherwise we'll just be miserable for months at a time but where we're cracking some jokes just to keep us sane you talked earlier about that you don't want to feel like hey I'm the cannon you do feel like God has pressed things on your heart all of these pieces all of these people coming together do you feel like there are moments where you think wow that actor

was prepared for this moment I mean it has happened with such mind-numbing regularity I've stopped being surprised by it I mean I don't even know where to begin I mean like lives who plays Mary Magdalene Paris who plays Matthew are just two examples of people who as they were receiving the offer to do this role they were giving up the business they were realizing they had no they didn't have a place in this business because they kept running against walls and they were in a

low place emotionally spiritually career wise Jonathan who plays Jesus he has a similar story to my five and two story where he was at the absolute end I mean just like God I can't do this anymore I'm drawing it my way I give it up I surrender I'm done and then God shows up in this way financially and then two weeks later he gets the call from me about the chosen the actor who plays Ezekiel for example in that very strange scene in season five when Jesus as a vision in the

valley of dry bones and encounters Ezekiel and the guy shows up on set this sounds like I'm making

it up but he's like you know I never know when people show up on set actors where they stand

spiritually I mean the majority of them are not Christians but everyone now and then someone will come up and they'll I'll say hi nice to meet you I'm Dallas and you know this is what we're doing today and they'll start to have tears in their eyes I said talk about how much the show is

“in fact of their lives this guy auditioned I think two years before and I just found the audition and he”

looked interesting and had a good heart and so I cast him he's like I did this audition two years ago forgot about it and then I get the call the day that I got the call my devotions were in the book of Ezekiel and I'm unpacking this passage of Ezekiel and then they tell me and they go hey we got a role for you and I'm great so with the chosen oh my gosh my favorite show you're gonna be playing Ezekiel and he's like what are you kidding me and he shows up in that moment with

him and Jonathan and in this emotional moment I mean that was real these guys are before the

role in camera telling each other their stories and having this powerful thing and that happens

all the time the actor plays Moses had a moment when he was visiting Israel and he had this profound spiritual connection to it and felt like God was pressing stuff on his heart and it was like a month later I cast him as Moses things like that just happened all the time so many times I or our company have tried to do something a partnership with another company or a decision on a date or a location and we go all the way through it to that point and we call him red sea moments

where we're at the edge of the red sea in fact the first time my wife used that term was with the LDS church when we were gonna be using the LDS set in Goshenuta it was the only place we were gonna be able to film season two because everything else was closed down or oh that and there's no places in the states that work and we're looking over season that's not working and then the church told us no can't use it and I'm like man that's weird I thought God had put it on my heart

to use this set and I visited it and felt like God was speaking to me and telling me lives are gonna change with the work you do on this set and then they said no and I'm like I

“guess I was wrong and a man to my wife goes no I think this is just God taking into the edge of the”

red sea so that when the water's part you'll know it's him four days later I'm on a zoom call with two of the elders of the church and somehow we got a hold of them and God had been put it on their hearts to watch the shows and even though they hadn't previously and it's like within five days president Nelson said yes I was ready to go somewhere else I mean it was just so many times where God brings us to the edge of the red sea and then he goes yeah I got this and he

parts the waters and we go gosh I'm so glad all ideas didn't work out so that happens over and over and over again and is no doubt happening today in the way that I don't even know oh that's beautiful

this at this moment this was happening all of it is such a testimony that God wants these stories

“told that's what I love he's working on everybody this makes me so happy and it's thank you for”

your testimony of that Dallas that this happens all the time this isn't well once or twice in seven years nope it happens all the time I had a question that came into my head Dallas the show is called the chosen what does it feel like to you to be chosen to do this it's pretty overwhelming if I try to think too hard about it it becomes too witty and I tried to appreciate it the chosen refers to and as the title the show three things Jesus is the chosen one the Jews is God's chosen

people and then the followers that he chose to come alongside him in his ministry and every now and then someone will say something like what you said is must be overwhelming or must be exciting to be chosen to do this I don't know if it's good that I'm not very good at stopping and thinking about these

kinds of things too often I just never have been very good at it people will come on set and they'll

go how's it going I'm like I don't know yet this day's not over the seasons out over I like until it's finished I don't get comfortable because there's it's just so hard there's so many opportunities to screw it up between now and in the end of season seven that I just don't have time I just keep the hand of the plow when it's all over maybe I'll look up and go wow throughout the course of the filming of it you get these moments where God gives you the grace to know it to celebrate

when you're in another country and someone is telling you in a different language how the show has changed their life and the privilege that I have of having a front row seat what God is doing

all over the world the lives that have been changed I can't even I don't even know where to begin with it

it's not like I'm not aware of it it's just that I want to take it as a gesture of like God just saying keep going keep going this is why you're doing it I don't know why I don't know why you chose me I can't wait to ask I'm too busy trying to just make sure I stay out of the way sure it works exactly well that you've put to word something that I feel often I know John feels it often I don't know why I get to be part of this but I love it yeah there's just as many

times where you go if I'd known it was gonna bring with it demonic oppression cancer loss of people close to me at times dozens of YouTube videos calling you a heretic with millions of views or saying things that aren't even true I mean all those things you go well what I've done it if I

“known that was gonna happen I don't know I'd like to think I would have I think God made”

me a way that I'm not as impacted by those kinds of things I don't know but I think there's a part of how God makes you that he just goes I've broken you down I've done the work I needed to do and you now you're ready for this and then I'm going to keep reminding you of it throughout so it's not all just rainbows and unicorns well this is why I loved your message was when it's widely successful you are saying no I just keep bringing my five and two I'm gonna let

God do all of the he'll take the weight of all the big stuff I'm just gonna keep bringing my five and two one of the reasons I respect you so much is because you're not letting it get to you you're just no I just keep bringing my five and two yeah I have to I know I'm not this good I'm able to talk about some of the things that the show has done in a truly objective way with no arrogance going I'm not good enough to do a show that there's some family that when before

it had even been translated in their language and their kids are like loving season one and wanting more and I'm like they're even a stand-alone with all these words that I was so proud of having written they didn't even understand them anyway I know that I'm not good enough to transcend that kind of thing I know that I'm not good enough to make a show that hundreds of millions of people all want to watch and that changes lives it actually should be somewhat easy to remain humble

because it's like oh gosh I remember when I was sitting on my laptop on my couch at three in the morning writing this scene and I felt good about it but like I know I'm not good enough to transcend art and life for so many people and like I just I just got to stay on my laptop on my couch at three in the morning and just make sure that I'm doing the best I can't while you just described my little experience here someone will say that guest

“changed my life we have a guest every week and I think I chose that guest and I did not”

I am not good enough to know exactly who to choose to bring that person on yeah it's just been beautiful to be a part of really you just feel like you're almost being a spectator they Dallas you mentioned easy kill and that scene can you elaborate on that and that connection

love to talk about the connection from the old testament to the new and especially how it relates

“to Easter when Jesus was in the garden we thought it could be really interesting to show him”

in his desperation to the father asking for relief asking for comfort asking for a scape even saying but not my will but yours be done to see moments in the old testament of hope of renewal for example we show this flashback to Abraham Abraham and Isaac and what sacrifice looks like and Jesus is saying oh he didn't ultimately sacrifice Isaac we released him from that test what do you have for me father in this easy kills one of my favorites I mean there's

just wonderful wonderful passage in Ezekiel where Ezekiel's talking to God and God says to him son of man human prophet can these bones live and Ezekiel says oh Lord only you know then what follows the answer to that is so cool we don't answer it in that moment in the garden of guessemony I don't want to spoil anything but let's say to the people who go that scene felt a little out of context and what is that just no we're not done yet there's moments in the

old testament that talk about renewal and resurrection and and life that indicate that Jesus' resurrection was not an adlib it was not an audible it had been part of the story from the beginning and Jesus' resurrection had breadcrumbs that had been left throughout the course of history that's a beautiful way to say that breadcrumbs when I said I wasn't even thinking of the fact that he's a bread of light so it's either more smarter than I thought it was just another example of wow I

I'm not smarter enough to do that yeah exactly that's the cocky way of saying it no I'm more open to God's teaching than I thought it was maybe I love it we're grateful for your time your testimony your goodness you exude goodness that's a perfect phrase in relation to what I'm saying which is I'm like if I exude goodness it is only because God is is good and I'm just a filter you know

“so I appreciate you saying that I also think it's I think it's it's so important for us to”

always be recognizing where the goodness comes from absolutely right John did you ever think that

you were gonna get this opportunity how do we how do we get this job whenever I watch the chills knowing that yeah I met that guy who was over my Macbook Pro but I met that guy we just chatted for an hour or two just enjoyed ourselves yeah my life picked in said I yeah yeah that's just you know with my pleasure Dallas please take Amanda for your time we recognize that that when you're here with us you're not there with her so yeah well I'm gonna go be with her now and get some more

work done but thank you thank you so much for having me on it's a pleasure a great joys of

my experience on the chosen has been getting to know so many people in the LDS church that I never

would have known otherwise I've always felt so love and appreciated and it's been a great great relationship it's gonna continue with that we want to thank Dallas Jenkins the creator of the chosen for being with us today we want to thank our executive producer Shannon Sourntson

“our sponsors David and Verla Sourntson in every episode we remember our founder Steve Sourntson”

we hope you'll join us next week we're gonna keep walking through the Old Testament on follow him as a thank you to our wonderful listeners we'd love to gift you the digital version of our book finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament it offers short meaningful insights drawn from our past Old Testament episodes visit follow him.co that's follow him.co to download your free copy today and you'll also find the link to purchase the print edition thank you for being part of

our follow him family of course none of this could happen without our incredible production crew David Perry Lisa Spice will stoked it crystal robberts r.a.l. co-author Heather Barlow Amelia Kubica Sidney Smith and Annabelle Sourntson whatever questions or problems you have

the answers always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ turn to him follow him