INTERVIEW: Nyah Hart - Transitioning, Transforming and Growing From Adversity

I am a Fiji and Indian woman of immigrant parents and am proud to live, work, and play on what Junker Country. This podcast acknowledges the past, present, and future traditional custodians of stolen country and the impact this has had on the health and wellbeing of our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander brothers and sisters.

Sovereignty was never seated.

Hi, team. Now, whilst we are health care professionals, this episode is for informational purposes only and it does not replace personalized health care advice. Your health is unique to you. If you have health care concerns, please seek out your local health professional. It's far more impressive to come back from drowning than it is to have always been able to swim.

Hello and welcome back to For Goodness 6. I am one of your host, Dr Sharmini and I am here with a guest today. Naya Hart is a pediatric nurse and currently studying medicine, but more importantly, she is my friend. Naya has agreed to come on the podcast to discuss her transition to the Sassy, sexy and empowered trans woman that she is. Welcome Naya.

Thank you for having me. So nice to have you. First of all, love your radio voice. Very gorgeous. Thank you.

I was just like, oh, I'm already in the podcast, like I feel like I'm still in the center. It's really good. Have you been? I've been good. Good.

Yeah, good.

“I've decided to take a little bit burnt out for a bit, but then I decided you know what?”

Rather than sinking into it, I'm trying to kind of trick my brain into thinking I'm not burnt out by when people ask me I go, I'm great. And then just like waking up and telling myself that. Can tell you that that is not the treatment for burnout? No, I know.

But like you do you, babe. But I'm deductions what I have because I can't take a break. Perfect. Like I am. That's fine.

All right. So shall we start at the beginning? We shall start at the beginning. You've got a diverse ethnic background because I know you well, but could you tell our listeners where and how life began for you?

Sure. Despite this accent, I was actually born in Perth, Western Australia at King Edward Memorial Hospital to my mother, who is Dutch English Australian. And then my father, who is a balladong and Nanjing Nanjing man. So I am an Aboriginal woman with a very strong American accent.

Why do you have an American accent? So when I was six years old, my dad, um, impulsively decided, oh, I've got my physiotherapy degree, I'm going to get a job across the world. In the U.S. and so I lived in the U.S. for on and off about 12 years, pretty much most of my childhood, though.

Yeah, and when did you come back to Australia?

Um, I came back finally when I was 22.

Okay. And you've been in Perth ever since? Yep. Yeah. All right.

Well, I had a little stint and Victoria, but that's, that's a stint as already. Yeah, it's a stint. Okay. Okay. So when did you first recognize that the body you were in wasn't the right one for you?

And what did that recognition look like?

“I think it was like, at a really young age, I was like, well, why don't I look like that?”

And like, why don't? And I would also like just, you know, when you're a kid and you kind of picture what you're going to be when you grow up, or you kind of envision or project yourself onto

adults or characters, it was always women.

And but then I would look at my body and go, something doesn't add up, um, because I have much to my parents regret and accidentally saw them naked when they didn't mean to be caught. I think we fold it. And I have a feeling I've got the bits that my father has, and I don't want to be

up like that far too hairy. Um, yeah. So I kind of started there, but there was no word for it. There was no framework that I could build on to say that's a possibility. So I was kind of just like, oh, okay, well, I guess that's.

Was it a sense of like, uh, like an easiness, or you just knew that something wasn't quite right, or was it just more of a, I want to look like that, and I don't, like, was there

“a heavy emotion related to it, or did it, um, project you in any direction?”

Um, I think it was more of a, um, it was kind of a disappointment, but it wasn't, okay. I was just kind of like, oh, okay, so I have to be that. And, but I think thankfully in my younger years, my more feminine side, my feminine side,

I have a very, um, accepting family, particularly on my father's side, and, um, not to shortchange my mother's mother. My grandmother's bizarrely progressive and really random things, and I'm very happy

that it's, um, mine is one of those things, um, so they've never, I was never made to

feel that the feminine behavior parts of myself were an issue. Yeah. So the bodily parts, so if, if I wanted to dress a certain way, that was fine, if I wanted to act a certain way, that was fine.

“So I was never told, no, no, you need to hang with the boys.”

No, you can't wear that, you know. When I came into my mother's room one day after watching Aladdin, which is to this day, my first crush, um, I just like the criminal aspect, um, yeah, I was just contemplating who my first crush was, but I don't need to talk about me, so that's fine, okay. So I went into my, uh, my mom's room and I was wearing my pajama top, and I had unbuttoned

the top, so that was just off the shoulder, like Jasmine's, um, pants suit, and I said, Mom, look, I'm Princess Jasmine, and she was like, right, uh, well, look, maybe try

Aladdin for a bit, but, um, but I was, no, I never felt shame around it.

Yeah, good. Uh, it was only really once I started school, and it, in the places you would expect me to have faced the reminder that, no, you are playing the wrong role.

“This is not for you, you have to go play over here.”

It was actually, um, not in the place you would have thought, like, when we first moved to the United States, we lived in Louisville, Kentucky, and again, very feminine kid couldn't hide it. No, I didn't feel, I didn't notice any bullying when I first went to this elementary school for a few months in Louisville, and then we moved to Eastern Kentucky, which is like ablation,

like deliverance to movie, kind of like, backwards, very Christian, very, you know, conservative

area, and I could never even recognize any kind of homophobia transphobia that I faced in

that space, when I was really young, like I was there from the time of like second grade to fourth grade, and like my teachers were really supportive, my babysitter, who was the head cheerleader and her boyfriend, who was the quarterback, were just loved the fact that I sang, so they kept getting this thing, you know, come over and sing it and I'd be singing in front of like, four cheerleaders in a bunch of American football players.

Was it the same experience in Australia? Did you do any of your schooling here or so? So my parents divorced right around when I was hitting fourth grade, and then I moved to Australia, and that's when suddenly the gender roles were made very clear that I did not fit, and I was going to a primary school in rocking him, yeah, I was just slap in the face,

you don't belong. Whereas in this small town, I'm gonna take you like, not to brag, I was popular, that's one of the third grade plastics, I was surprised, yeah, yeah, that's, well, I was very surprised when it didn't carry on, and did that affect your performance at school or

“how did it, how did school look like for you then in that case, when you moved back to Australia?”

Definitely, yeah, I've always been, as one of the teachers said, a smart, undergiver, but in the small, like, in Eastern Kentucky and Raysland, we, which, by the way, is in the same area, it's flat, what can Kentucky, which is berbilly, Raysiders, it's from, so I like to say that's like an action to mind me, yeah, that's, we'll take it, yeah, yeah, we'll take that one. Yeah, I had really supportive teachers, and they would, like, I have ADHD,

so they were really supportive and helping with that. And so, I just didn't have that extra baggage of dealing with bullying, and I didn't have, and I had a really, I mean, these were fantastic teachers, like, they were the ones that would stay after class to help you finish it. There were the ones that would, they would cry if you were upset, you know, because they didn't want you to be sent, they were just, I still remember my third

current teachers, and my fourth grade of turn, and he was gonna tell me, this is Curry, and this is Evans, and they are just phenomenal. But yeah, I only really noticed it when I came here, and this is why I think also where that really, not just this desire to look a certain way, or have a different body, but, you know, the people that got me through life for women, for roles, and in Eastern Kentucky, like, the girls didn't question it, that would be like,

you come in over, firstly, by the way, you hang in, I'm playing dolls, you know, it was just, I'm on, whereas when I moved here, I think that really rigid, patriarchal, male dominated,

why are you hanging out? Why are you trying out that so you don't belong in this? So yeah, that was when? So I would have been so confronting, and very confusing. It was very lonely,

first year back, and I saw, yeah, yeah, well, hmm.

Okay, so a little bit more into sexuality, if we can, when you were transitioning, did that include sort of a non-binary exploration, or how was your sexuality affected as a result of your desire or your transition? Um, so I did have a period where I thought, because again, also like, as I got older and I had more exposure to, that, oh, people can be trans, like at that time in the US, um, this is when I was back there, I was living there again from the age

of 16 to 22, and my mom was living with my stepfather, he left us, so I became the breadwinner,

and suddenly I was like, well, I can't afford that, so that's not really an option, and so I kind of

put that side of myself aside for a really long time, but then around my mid 20s, as like, my mom was finishing uni, was able to get more support for herself, and my siblings were moving out. I was like, oh, I can, I can check back on that side of myself, and for a period of time, I was like, it may be a drag, it's a drag, the big part, maybe I want to be a drag queen, and then I realized, I don't like putting that much effort into what I wear, and I want a bit of effort,

“a lot of wear, a lot of work. I don't want to glued out my eyebrows, that's what I want”

I think what I appreciate is for a certain genre of drag's reverence for the feminine, the belief that the power exists in the feminine, and that it's not a, by emulating masculinity, it is power in and out of its own right. And so I think that's where I kind of started there, but then I was like, oh, okay, that's not really who I am, and then I kind of went back and go, actually no, I think I just need to transition. And for a large part of my life, I was very obese.

So I think that kind of master, it was like, do I hate my body because it's this, and I was only once I left all the way, I was like, no, no, no, yeah, that thing that I thought when I was a kid, and then I've had like, niggling in the back of my brain, it's still there, and I had nothing to do with my weight. It had everything to do with not getting to be the person I wanted to be. On the nonbinary side, I would say those parts of me now where I'm like, you know what,

I'm not going to mask that part of my voice, or I don't want to wear what society says women should wear, I don't want to wear a freely outfit. If I want to wear a pair of slacks, we're like a man's basketball shirt because it's freaking comfortable. I kind of realized that the performative parts of gender

“aren't as essential, like the things that I thought, you know, when you want to be something you”

look for images that go, okay, what does society say is the epitome of that? And then you actually realize, oh, actually, you don't have to do that. That doesn't make you, you are. And you know, and the women you actually admit that you actually admire, they don't have to wear a body con dress and have their boobs out, or, you know, or whites have their makeup done. You can just exist in yourself. What about sexual attraction? That is something that was very interesting.

So when I started hormones, so they started when a lower dose of estrogen and a testosterone locker. How did you, can we just take aside some of the stuff? How you actually access that for Philistines who are interested in accessing gender-affirming, hormone therapy is the term, yeah. So I did a little bit of research, and I, I don't know if it's the same now, but I felt like at

“the time I remember feeling that was some legislation on who could prescribe and who couldn't.”

So I got my GP to refer first to a psychiatrist, any of the endocrinologists that would prescribe

the hormones needed a sign-off from a psych to say that there's no co-morbid mental health conditions that could impact this. I will just interject there just to reassure everyone that that's not the case anymore. So we now use a informed consent model so that doesn't necessarily require mandatory psychological or psychiatric evaluations. So that should not be a barrier.

possible outcomes. And if we feel like they've been informed appropriately and they do too,

then we can initiate treatment generally, depending on the context we may need to involve a specialist, but that psychiatric evaluation is no longer required. That's so nice here.

“I think there's, I think there is a space for psych not necessarily psychiatry,”

but a mental health conditions in the journey, but it's more to deal with the emotional rollercoaster of actually going on this journey. Oh, 100%. There's definitely a role for psychology for most of us, let's be honest. But yeah, no, I think that that's invaluable. It's just reassuring that we don't need to put people through like, are you sure you want to do this? That's the gatekeeping. Yeah. Yeah. And it's proof that people at least in Australia

they have at least legislated and listened to trans people, so that's good. But with this extra, the thing, so when I started the hormone, the testosterone blocker kind of hit

first, which was absolutely wonderful. There is nothing better than having no testosterone in your

system, like, at least for me. Yeah. It felt like I had so much free time. My sex drive was so low. I was like, I got the shopping done. I picked up a craft, a hobby. There's so much more free time when you're not like thinking about achieving, you know, dealing with this little like demon in your head, who is, I mean, male sexual drive is at least maybe it was just mine, but I can tell you, it felt like, incessant, whereas when I had that space away from it, I was like, oh, you know,

and that kind of then goes into. So when the Eastgen started kicking in, I went through what I call

“my pre-teen girl face, where I, I, I think I was there for that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.”

Well, I had made before you, you started your transition. Yeah. Yeah. You remember the guy I had a crush on when we were having, kind of like, I did. Yeah. And the people, the men that I found attracted at the time, I don't think I had enough estrogen in my system to start driving any sort of like sexual attraction. I just was like, I knew I had a, it was really like pre-teen girls, we were like, oh my god, they're so cute. And totally when I like sleep with them, they're like,

do you know what's sleeping with? I was like, yeah, holding hands. You know, like, I was just so, it was so platonic, but I just, like, it was just the most, like, even my day dreaming was like, we'll have a picnic. There was like no sex thoughts whatsoever. It's very endearing. It was really sweet. But yeah, as the Eastgen started kicking in, I started getting more of what my

“stable sex drive would be. My sexuality, I think, would still say, I would say it stayed the same”

in the sense that I am attracted to men as I was before. The only difference now is that I would say what is defined as a man changed. Their genitals didn't matter so much anymore. I know that I'm physically attracted to masculinity in presence. However, also, I found when I was under the oppressive chains of testosterone, I was very like superficial with what I found attractive, right? Like, they had to have this and this and if they didn't have that, I was not

attractive and there was no way to get me past it, whereas out to the hormones, there were people

like it'd be like, not attractive at first, but then the more they talk, I'm like, okay, you can get it,

you know, and it's quite a transformative isn't it? Yeah, and it was, but also like, there was no need in the same way. Like, sometimes I felt like when I was on testosterone, there was this you needed to have sex, where you needed to go and how what's the rating of this? Uh, you needed to go masturbate because they're like, get that release. After home runs, I was like, well, I've got other things to do. Like, go months versus daily. Do you think a part of that

wasn't just hormonal, but the fact that you were transitioning into someone you wanted to be, which gave you the freedom in your mind as well, do you think it was partially that or was it largely hormones? I think it was largely hormones. Okay, yeah. You know, and any men that are watching this are going to be like, that's not what I was like, I was in it. I can only speak for my experience. It felt very like, very one note, like, get it done, get the job done, you know? Yeah,

yeah. Whereas after that, it was just the way my brain felt was so different. I don't know if every other trans woman has that same experience. The drive that then followed that, though. So like,

which is really good. I think the next thing that influenced my sexual choices was, I think what a lot of this women have probably experienced at some point in their life was this idea that to get validation of who that you are, yes, indeed a woman, is that a man is attracted to you.

“Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's something that probably does resonate with a lot of women. Yeah,”

certainly. Yeah. Like, and I wasn't, you know, when I started hormones, I was what 27, 28, as often kind of know that you started. No, I started hormones just before. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah. And then I, uh, the November of that year. Yeah. So that's 2017. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So 29. Yeah. Yeah. So you know, as a kind of adult, I've done, you know, some mental work with like drama around my family, that kind of stuff. So like, you know, for a lot of situations, I was an relatively okay rounded

individual, but as soon as the transition happened, my God, the pure insanity of the choices I made and the things that came out my mouth. Like, all I can think of is like, if you look back to the moment when you were a teenager and you were your most chaotic, and you were making real stupid choices, that was me. I mean, I would have sex at that time for validation, and I thought, oh my God, they wouldn't have sex me, so that means I'm legit. Yeah. Until you started to realize,

they were never going to take you out in public, even if, you know, for the ones who said,

“oh, I would have had no idea, but they know, they don't want to get it out. Yeah, I think that's”

the frustrations of being attracted to them is that at times it feels like their attraction to me is one thing, but they're desired to be with me as everything to do with what they think, other what it will mean for their identity. Yeah. Yeah, that's pointy at hey. Like, I think we've talked a lot about this as well, and it's been a particularly difficult part of your journey. Hey, I think, you know, I have been very blessed to have shared in your journey and to have known you

pretty much from the start, but it hasn't, it hasn't always been easy. It's been really, really,

really, really tough. Yeah. Yeah, I don't. When people say dating harsh stories, I'm like, so stories. Yeah. Yeah. So tell me what has been the hardest part of your transition so far. You know, we kind of talked about like the dating thing, but I think really what that was is it's helped to expose the deeper issue that I was dealing with, right? And I think a lot of people can relate to this because I think it reflects what a lot of people experience when they are

going through a big change, right? So say you've lost a lot of weight or you plan for a weight loss surgery and you've lost a lot of weight and you thought one day when this happens,

“everything will be better. That will change it. That's why I don't like myself. So, you know,”

when I first transitioned and I needed validation and I got it from my friends, but you know,

society tells us that a woman's worth is all around what a man thinks of you. You know, doesn't have to be set out loud. You can just feel it. And it's really funny too because like at the same time before a transition, all my female friends will be like, you don't need him. He can't tell you who you are. And as soon as I was in that position, I was like, yes, Mr. Man, tell me how good I am. Like it was just, well, that would have been really

conflicting. Yeah. Like all logic out the window. But I think what a pointed out was that and a lot of trans people will talk about this or at least a lot of ones. I follow and I think that there's a period of where a lot of them go through this, where they're seeking validation from external sources and they realize and and in truth, it's usually a point where they have something really bad happen or they get to a point where they're just done that they then go,

well, I'm left with myself. So, and I'm really unhappy right now and I really unhappy because I transitioned and then they take stock and I think that's really what happened with me. So,

because it'll really speak to how absolutely broken and like how my best judgment was gone.

“So, for a period I realized that the safer way to date was to go on to use the internet or”

apps or whatever so that the people I was talking to knew I was trans before they met me. I didn't have to come out, I didn't have fear rejection or violence or whatever response because they knew what they were signing up for. So, anyway, there was this guy, he was from Romania. We started talking and the photos he was using are of were an attractive man but like you know like too much like oil bodybuilder kind of pictures

that swoopy early 2000s hair and I was like he's like cute looking but it was like we had good conversations, good band term and then one day I was kind of sitting there going

“because he'd be like all of send me a picture and so I'd send a picture and then I'd be like send”

me one and I'd be like that looks like an old picture. Like that or and then a couple of times he sent something where I was like I've seen that picture before. You're running through some safe pictures why aren't you taking pictures of now? So, turns out he was cat fishing me and then how did you how did you find that out that he was cat fishing you? Well because I was sitting there going this doesn't smell right. Yeah you know I was like that's not your thought I was like

could get on webcam. You know right yeah yeah okay yeah which by the way is a really uncomfortable statement to admit when I was considering I was 30 at the time. It's actually like a 14 year old being like get on webcam. And I was a wreck I'm not a big cryer during this period of time not just with him but in general I could cry to drop fat and like ball cry I was so viscerally raw and emotionally

disregulated. Anyway you finally admitted to it send a photo. Funny thing is he was way more attractive

in real life. Like way more my type right like not that like you know oiled up brown sun because he was real he was just he was real and he was very I thought he was much more handsome but the gaslighting around that and the funny thing is I stuck around which was first mistake actually well continuing to let him confessing not being like up to lead but yeah so then for three months I proceeded to deal with this person who is probably one of the most

toxic man I've ever dealt with my entire life. Cat fishing using complements and also then insults to control me coercing me to speak on like on video cam and all that kind of stuff

at times that didn't fit my schedule at all. There was never flexibly for me and because I was so

I was just so vulnerable. I so desperately wanted him to tell me the things that I needed and to tell me and why they're like it's like I love you you're beautiful and I was like desperate like like a addict you're waiting for the hit and if you don't get it it's like I can only imagine this is what it's like I just started to describe when they talk about attachment issues or abandonment issues because that was insane and then there was finally a point where I was just like

this is ridiculous you were actually by all. So this was in 2018 this man still messaging me once a month

“in from multiple social media things like platform different profile so the same profile. I think”

it's like they're the same profile in that time as well. I would have to show myself sexually right

show off my body like I felt like when I finally ended up I said to him it was because I finally realized

I was like you know if all you want is a cam show there are people who will pay you can pay for this and at least then they're getting something out of this. So I guess it sounds like a huge degree of discomfort or pain in your transition journey is people monopolizing on your vulnerability and your need for validation and you I guess struggling

vulnerable before and I think that that's a really difficult situation to be in because when you are vulnerable you you want to feel validated. Has that affected your friendships so you're

“non-romantic relationships? How has it been forming those during your transition?”

There were definitely times I would meet friends post-transition like when I started working at the Children's Hospital I made friends with some girls I hung out with her group of friends

and the girls were a fab but I always felt this really awkward thing around their

male friends okay like some of them are just like it's like who let a giraffe in the house? Like they just had this like oh they just didn't know and like so is it in terms of interacting with you? Yeah oh yeah it's very confusing and I think also I was so desperate to just pass to assimilate into being a woman and that meant that I had to be seen treated in every aspect and if it didn't happen it would shatter so the dating is one aspect of validating that

identity friendships in the way that you exist in society also is the other aspect and so some of these

girls you know I really adore them I was very what I felt was really close for them with them but

they couldn't understand my experience right and not saying that everyone has to we bonded and have some commonality because we can see parts of ourselves where you've been asked to yeah yeah like what you can see similarities or even if we can't we can at least

“empathize but I think the people are meeting at that time couldn't necessarily I think I also”

felt like I needed something from them that they weren't able to give. What about your friends before transitioning have they stuck around or has that dynamic changed? The friends I had before transition again I've moved around so much so I haven't really had these long drawn out friendships that came from before so I had a friend Jen who I worked with at a nursing a community nursing company and before I transitioned she introduced me to her group of friends her husband

and their friend group and that group accepted me completely. I came out to them that I was transitioning from day-to-day were so supportive they you know were so lovely there were some distance that occurred probably in that crazy time you know they were getting married also and having kids and that's you know so I felt I kind of thought that that made me other so I would

always felt like an accessory but I recently reconnect them last year and I realized

a part of that was me projecting that because they were actually really lovely friends but then also kind of brings up the fact that sometimes some of our friendships we expect some sort of something from the friendship but we can't verbalize what we need and so when they don't achieve

“that we're like done because we're just culling I think there was a period where I was just”

accepting all of these friendships and validating my worth based on my social network which became quite large and then I called because that was just like effort you know like why and I just became really hermiting are you in a good place with that now with your friendships yeah like I we've been friends but nearly ten years yeah I'm happy with a couple of really good friends I'm like sharpness my friend even if it was just you I I don't need to collect more I'm

happy to collect value and you hold value so if anybody else comes in it's it's a bonus but also that being said I my mom and I were talking about this because she's kind of in a similar position after having two divorces there comes to a point where you kind of realize I also don't meet any permanent friendship it's not to say that you're just ignoring it but that you realize that you go through a journey and that you are more than capable of building relationships for what you

need at the time yeah you know so I'm going to much less desperate to feel some void I feel like you you're progressing towards you know being more of your authentic self and that comes with self assurance security and yet I guess you know I obviously obviously value this relationship

for but what you know adds to our life really and it doesn't necessarily come in quantity and

“if you can hold a few good quality friendships then that's really what matters I'm so lucky yeah”

so we touched briefly on before about you accessing hormone therapy and you've had some surgeries as well so I was hoping you wouldn't mind discussing those surgeries and leaning on to that if you've actually completed your transition or if there's more to come ideally there is still more to come so I've had rest augmentation after I'd last that away I don't like it's not technically a general performing surgery but having the exact same time was a tummy tuck so it kind of like

suddenly my body had a waist and and the breasts and suddenly I was like oh I remember when my poor father he's very supportive I'm very lucky he flew to India with me to have the

“breast augmentation and I remember standing in front of this mirror like we were sharing a hotel room”

like double beds he just come back in and I was just standing in front of a mirror with no brawn and then like he walks through the door and I'm like oh and so I cover up and I go he's like were you just staring yourself like yeah I said yeah I do this well like I would look to my body

and I go yeah this was like it was the first time I looked at my body and I go that was what

was supposed to look like it was like um yeah just this real like oh my god you know I was living in a shell that wasn't mine for so long yeah well it's funny because that was before all those horrible dating experiences and it's kind of funny I was wish I could take that back because it was then poisoned by this desperate need for other people's validation because at that time you couldn't have told me shit I thought I was the bomb like I looked at that mirror and I was like

who's that lady like so yeah so I've had those I would like to have facial feminization surgery it is a is morbidently expensive um the number of surgeons here in Australia that perform more of the advanced or like the more recent surgical options is very few because there've been a lot of advancements in the field like just in facial feminization surgery for example sadly our system is not training up the newest and most advanced techniques to provide the service and

even if they did it's not covered by medicare there's no public list for a lot of these things because there still can perceive does cosmetic to be honest I haven't I'm not aware of that and I'm not too familiar with facial feminization surgeries but I do know a little bit more about

like bottom surgery is that something that's interested you when I first was like yeah I'm not

transition absolutely it was like there's no doubt realizing that the surgical techniques have not advanced enough for you to get what you would feel comfortable with is really upsetting here's the thing is if I don't like breast implants I can still survive yeah if I don't like my face I can still survive yeah if something goes wrong in my lower um surgery bottom like general genital reassignment surgery I could end up needing a catheter it could really impact my function right

not even sexual function it's certainly a big decision it's a decision that I wanted to make a much like I want to be much more cautious at this and for me I think like it's definitely the thing I want done in the future but I want to make sure I'm getting the best and at the moment I don't really have the funds to be the best. Yeah and you're right last yeah cost is extremely prohibitive and you've also identified that surgical expertise is prohibitive I guess you know

speaking in a medical context that I can some would argue that the demand is not high enough to

“up-skill I would I would tend to disagree with that but that's how surgeons sort of become”

skilled right after practice the surgeries that they're doing I do know in Australia it's more common to do labia plastics then vagina plastics and it's it's highly state dependent so if it's something that you know tell listeners if if it's something that you're interested in

you know what your options are really and nice right it's still an evolving space the surgical techniques are constantly being developed and transitioning from female to male as well is an

“even more complicated bottom surgery that no one in Australia does so I think I mean I'm keen to do”

a podcast specifically on the medical stuff in the future but hopefully we get you know a bit more of an advancement that yeah you you feel comfortable to do it's your body so your choice right you want to be confident with the choice yeah absolutely I would love if if you do another episode with the surgical thing to have a trans man here to speak yeah absolutely the risk for trans men huge huge yeah huge I see you admissions months upon months at fistula generation

awful but some really when it works out well some really wonderful stories of finally

feeling like your body matches with her yeah and it's it's that's exactly right because you know we've we've talked a lot about how you know when you had the breast surgery and the tummy tuck and how you just like that this is this is it and for a lot of people that is the feeling that they're they're wanting but unfortunately there's this huge barriers you know experience surgical techniques finances medicare rebates there's so many and I'm hopeful that this space

continues to progress and I think it will I think we're just not quite there yet in terms of you know having the safest most effective way because it is an evolving space okay so you mentioned you've mentioned obviously a few low lights as I like to call them in your journey and one

really good highlight which was finally feeling like you were in your body and also feeling a

bit more secure in yourself in terms of your interpersonal relationships and and yourself worth

“what would you say has been the best thing to come out of your journey so far?”

I would say that it is if I separate the negative experience of I had that I have had but also take what I learned from it what I gained from some of these experiences was I kind of I needed to be what's the word challenged because I think for a lot of when I first transitioned my identity was sitting there like oh my god I'm so passable nobody's clocked me and sometimes I I actually needed to be reminded that the world that I might not be that I might face

adversity or because it then allowed me to go oh okay myself worth it's a little fragile and force me to work on myself not just in the physical way things that I had done but actually made me go am I going to go back no no no this is what I want to stay in and it allowed me to explore my worth as a person regardless of the body I was in and I also came to this period where I think I I got to a point where I could take criticism better because I didn't see it

as a hit I saw it as a way to get better like I just found myself far more secure in myself because I'd had to build from the ground up because I was led to believe oh I led myself to believe that once I had this fix it would be all better and then I realized the world you know it doesn't work like that and so I had to put the time in to know what I'm worth and I think when people say that they think oh my god I mean you think you're worth so much no no I knowing your worth is

about knowing what you're good at and what you're bad at what you deserve and what you deserve and when we say what you're bad it's about being like but that's okay that's not a negative that's just okay that's not my strength but that means you're more aware of the strength you have

“yeah what an incredibly insightful benefit right you're telling me that the best thing to come out”

of your journey is the lessons from the adversity I absolutely it's it's incredibly powerful you know

to have those realizations and I guess work on yourself like so many people don't don't do that and you know your benefits and and the good things of a firmly embedded in reality right this is what society is this is who you are as a person and I think that's incredibly empowering to to use those adverse experiences and say that that's the best thing to come out of it that's incredible we should be so proud of yourself my mom and I were talking about this one day

when you think of the stories that impress you right the things that make you go oh it's far more

come back from something like that is far more impressive you are impressive honestly honestly don't what what are you hopeful for for the future like for yourself and and for the trans community at

“large I think for myself what we talk about those surgeries but those are those would be nice”

and those are things that I'm on a on a personal level focused like our kind of like hopeful for but at the same time I'm in medical school I and finishing that goal I think it's the

transition allowed me to realize to finally access the other parts of myself that had nothing to do

with my gender as I'm sure a lot of women can express the moment that they're like oh my god I'm so much more than just this just a woman I'm all these other parts and by finally actually accepting who what kind of woman I am I then got to be like okay I'm also these things and actually they make up a larger part of I think we talked about this one square people just latch on to the one part of your identity and they're like I'm gonna watch this show about this thing

obviously not and you're like girl like ask me what my favorite friends character is yeah tell me are you a Charlotte or a Samantha you like I don't I don't identify purely on my intersectionality like I'm more than my race and my gender and my you know that yeah yeah we've had that discussion when we're with our close friends that's not what we're thinking about absolutely not when I first transitioned uh you remember I was doing a short term contract in a very small

town in Western Australia at about 800 people and that's where I publicly transitioned and I went in as a male I was as a as Marcus and then I left as nine and and this is town who have

never experienced that if you had never exposed them to a trans person before they probably would have

just recited all of the trans public lines that are being sold on the internet but they knew me and they respected me and what I did is the nurse there and so I was treated with kindness and questions that were asked were really thoughtful questions not invasive you know like we're not too invasive um but it kind of impressed me I was like Australia has such capacity for change and even like say the trans laws gender recognition changes on breast certificates here in

to be way I've been there for years and it's not a certificate it's a junior birth certificate in the UK they were only giving out gender recognition certificates of which they're currently

“in a battle of removing those um so I think in some ways we're we're doing okay”

we're slowly trying to along other things I would wish there were more it would improve but you know what we're doing it it's what makes me sad around the world that's more scary having grown up in the US and seeing the legislation and the scapegoating of trans people with bathroom bills where 1% of like less than 1% of population we're taking up a lot of mind in these big upsides like a lot of time like you know I'm happy to live right free but you know

but um I really hope for the people in the UK anywhere else that trans people are facing these kind of um this kind of discrimination where the the government and legal establishment is being used against them weaponized against them that there will there will be some change there

“I will kind of finish and say what I'm grateful for and I think this is what the trans”

community is very lucky for our trans women of color particularly black trans women they have been our biggest warriors the people that have fought far before a lot of people joined and they made a point recently that the attacks towards trans women is really a policing of what a woman is not decided by women because they've been recent harassment of cisgender women in females bathrooms because they were told they were trans because they were look too

masculine they didn't have the right haircut they were too tall and as a trans woman my here

is my entire life women always women they were the ones I they were the people who saved me

they are the people I listened to they are who I seek out they're in the music I listen to I really can't listen to what me a singer at all um no offense aerosmith um I think the reminder is that the things that we're facing any of those is actually an oppression of all of us if we say it's all around mislaunchening it's all around that that structure where men masculinity is

stem from transphobia I don't think it's just because you want to transition because the

conversations that are being had are about trans women oh trans women trans men don't even get a word in because it's okay to want to emulate masculinity it's not okay to want to emulate

“femininity so I think my positive thing is if if all of us representing feminine people”

like unite we make this world run we would kick it absolutely kill it like could you imagine just

I'm like you imagine a UN filled with women I can't imagine yes and I already said how much testosterone actually like I'm like oh my god my women like their appearance I'm like yeah but testosterone it starts to happen 24/7 365 days a year so yeah but now I am so grateful to have

you as a friend I'm grateful for all of the strong women that have been in my life that have been

supporting and that have given me role models of which to help me find the woman I am so I don't think I could we are not apart we are together yeah that's really beautiful yeah okay so what I'm hearing is that Australia is actually doing not too badly

“and yeah I think is part of growth in general we want to acknowledge the good things but we”

we also do need to acknowledge where we need to to grow from and you know I'm all for a strength based approach I think you know you've said that Australia's got capacity to change and yeah I'm hopeful that the world you know as you've just touched on all these issues in the UK and the US it's we've got a long way to go and I'm just so grateful that you've come on today to

“to talk about your journey and I guess be a voice in that change you know I think the more we hear”

from people in your community who feel safe and comfortable to share their story that the more change we are gonna anticipate I think so I just want to say thank you so much for thank you firstly being my friend and for being here today I'm so grateful for you and I'm also really grateful that you feel safe enough to to share your story with our community and I hope you feel comfortable in this podcast community too. Very comfortable thank you so much for having me. Thank you so

much and I hope you're putting me good night and good luck. Yeah yeah that's exactly why you wanted it. Thank you so much for listening we'll pop some resources up to some links in the sorry some links to some resources in the show notes and just a sign off to say "power to a woman" absolutely. Special thanks goes to the handhouse recordings studios for hosting our recording sessions, our production team, Dana and Louisa and my good friend Pary South Safari for our audio.