From WHY in Philadelphia, this is Fresh Share Weekend.
musician Jill Scott. She shares some of the lessons she learned from the legends who came
before her, including the moment she first met Aritha Franklin and what the queen of soul
asked her to do. Go to the corner and get me two hot dogs with cooked onions and mustard. And I went. Also actor, Riz Ahmed, talks about his new series "Bait." He plays a British Pakistani actor, auditioning to be the next James Bond. When writing the script, he drew from moments in his own life. Like the time he got kicked out of a supermarket, the same week it was revealed, he was in Star Wars. And we get into a back and forth and I'm sold for a straight
at a one-point. I go, dude, I'm not sure what to do. I'm Star Wars, man. And they got, okay, this
person is definitely crazy. And you'll bat and never come in back here. That's coming up on Fresh
Air Weekend. Support for Fresh Share comes from WHY, presenting the pulse, a weekly podcast about health and science. Each episode is full of great stories and big ideas fueled by curiosity
“and wonder. Can you learn to listen to your intuition? What should electric cars sound like?”
Why can it be so hard to get an accurate diagnosis? How do fungi communicate? Check out the pulse available where you get your podcasts. This is Fresh Share Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. My first guest today is singer, songwriter, and actor Jill Scott. She released her sixth studio album to whom this may concern last month, her first new music and a decade. Here's a single from the album called "Presha." I wanted you to make mine. In the daytime, as well as the night,
but you needed to hide me. I'm not sure. Don't sit right. I wasn't theest at it. I guess I guess I can't hear it. So much pressure to feel just like them. Pretty and got mad at it. Elementary, I forbid it. So much pressure to feel just like them. Just like them. Just like them. So much pressure to feel just like them. The song recently went to number one on the
Billboard adult R&B airplane chart. And it's about the weight of being asked to look sound and move through the world a certain way and being desired and private, but not claimed in public. Jill Scott has been making music for more than 25 years. The story goes that Quest Love of the Roots
“first discovered her is part of Philadelphia's spoken word scene. Her 2000 debut, "Who is Jill Scott?”
Words and sounds volume one." Answered its own question with double platinum sales, three Grammy nominations and a sound that is helped to find Neo-Soul. Since then, Scott has one three Grammys written a best-selling book of poetry and built an acting career that has spanned from HBO's the number one ladies detective agency BET plus's first wife's club and the role of Sheila and Tyler Perry's "Why Did I Get Married?" A character so beloved,
Tyler Perry is bringing her back this year and why did I get married again for Netflix. And Jill Scott, welcome to Fresh Air. Thank you. It's a pleasure to have you. I feel the same way. I'm so happy to be here. That's song pressure. What a song for your first single and 13 years. Yes. And you've been gone living life and doing your own thing. And when you say you've been pining it, you've been wanting it. What do
you mean? Was that break intentional or was it also a mix of you just trying to find your way back in some way to get to that thing that you're talking about? I literally loved writing from the very first time I read Nikki Giovanni's poetry.
“Loved it. How old was that when was that? I was I think 12 or 13. I loved it. Never really saw”
myself on paper before. I could smell the lotion between my grandmother's legs when she would break my hair when I read Nikki Giovanni. I love that. I want to write like that. And when you
say you want to write like that, I think for me one of the most powerful things about Nikki Giovanni
Is she made the ordinary so beautiful.
of killing a pregnant roach. Yes, I know that joy. There's actually a song on the album called
“Ode to Nikki. That's right. And what's really powerful about it is it's in the cadence of the way”
Nikki wrote. I want to play a little bit of it and we'll talk a little bit more about it on the other side. She is not trapped in a perpetual loop. They are not doing what they are used to. Here's not sitting on the same concrete wishing. She is a living alive, celustine prophecy. He can actually taste his own vibrancy. She is swaying to her symphony, rocking, rocking her hammock, feeling the breeze, self-motivating, self-satisfactioning, wonderful curiosity, exciting,
pages crumble, much pride, much humble, much fumble, no more dumbing down for what the moon, exquisite views, intentional luxury, mind-rending the spleen, complex implicitly, synpanical, beautiful reels touch by their son, redefining shining, vibrating sonically. That was my guest Jill Scott and that's a cut from her latest album to whom this may concern and that cut is called 'O' to Nikki and you were really young, so you were about 12 or 13,
“when you first found out. Do you remember what it was you were reading?”
No, I honestly don't remember what it was. I should, I remember the pictures and I remember how I felt. It was a book of poetry, but my English teacher and I was friend Danish. She gave us a list of people to do essay about. And I landed on Nikki Giovanni, and I just thought it was probably like some Italian guy or some Italian lady. Yes, and I found this poet. Ego Trippin obviously was big for me, particularly in the quote-unquote
Neosole era. We were all discovering poets and having poetry slams. In college I tried to get
into our class and couldn't, yeah, oh I tried, couldn't get into that class. I never actually
had a chance to shake her hand, you never matter, I never matter, but the impact is massive. Let's talk a little bit about growing up in Philadelphia. You grew up primarily with your mom and your grandmother and northfilly. Yes. And this is not always the case, but the thing that I've been thinking about is some of the lessons that you learn by being in a multi-generational home of women. You're someone who exudes very much femininity and softness, but also kind of a way of being,
you set this intention with every piece of music that you put out there. What was your
multi-generational household like? Good question. First of all, full of love and humor.
My mother and my grandmother both competed for my attention. Yep, through humor. Sometimes, sometimes, I've been beloved. Okay, so they competed for my attention. My grandmother was born in 1917. She had a whole bunch of stories. Bunches and bunches of stories. She's brown, so brown, and her skin texture was like a soft peach.
“Standing. She looks very much like the actress. I think her name is Wumi.”
Oh, from centers. Yes. Uh-huh. Yeah. That's when my grandmother looked like. She's the one that gave me God. My grandma. She introduced you to God here. Well, she also a singer herself. Yes, but only in private. I think I've heard you say she sounded like mahalia Jackson. Something like that. Just sincere. What were the other ways that your mom and grandma tried to get your attention, compete for your attention? That's an
interesting thing because typically it's the other way around. The kid is trying to get the attention of the adults. No. My grandmother was in the front room. My mother was in the back, and I could go and visit one, and then I had to go and visit the other, and then go visit the other, and that was my days, you know, going back and forth, but they wouldn't come together. Now they worked together beautifully in creating a home. A home was very, very important to my grandmother,
Became very important to my mother as well.
ROD and T.S.s. Yeah. My mother fought them hand in nail like literally, laterally. My son approaches, both them hard, and she won. She got the house next door to us. It had been abandoned.
“It was one of the reasons why there was so much going on. Got that house clean at house up?”
Do you remember when she decided I'm going to buy that house next door, and I'm a clean it up, and what you thought as a young girl watching your mom do that? I just thought it was dope. These are the things I expect out of her. My mother will make you a pair of pants. You know, she could do that. Make you a great soup that'll keep you full all day long. You know, she could do that. She started doing drywall with people. You know, a way to make money, but also to learn how to
put up drywall. And then she started learning how to put down hard with floors, and then some plumbing. So she was hanging around some people that knew how to do some things. Was this all in her day job? Because she was a dental hygienist too, right? Right for a while. She was a dental hygienist till I was about 14. But then, you know, after that it was, I'm going to do whatever I want. And that was a little tough because we didn't know, you know, how we were eating. But she did what
she wanted to do. And one of the things she wanted to do was clean up this house. It was important
“her. And that's what she did. Because all those rotons and in a abandoned house is making it”
their way to your house. Right. Yeah. Right. Was there a lot of music in your home? There was some. Uh-huh. There were nights when my mother wanted to talk and she would play Millie Jackson. And we would list the drink, manna shepherds. That was the thing. What is that? Manna shepherds is like a Jewish wine. I think it's, it's not very good. It's very sweet. And how old were you? I don't know. Maybe 15, 16. But having a little manna shepherds and
listening to Millie Jackson at a point of sisters. My mother's music was very rooted in womanhood. My grandmother's music was very rooted in Jehovah God. And my music was rooted in
verses. Hip hop. Hip hop. Storytelling. Yes. Thank you, Giovanni. She's open a door. I never
turn back. Our guest today is Grammy Award-winning artist Jill Scott. We'll be back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley and this is Fresh Air Weekend. Support for Fresh Air comes from WHY. Presenting the pulse, a weekly podcast about health and science. Each episode is full of great
“stories and big ideas fueled by curiosity and wonder. Can you learn to listen to your intuition?”
What should electric cars sound like? Why can it be so hard to get an accurate diagnosis? How do fungi communicate? Check out the pulse available where you get your podcasts. This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Let's get back to my conversation with Grammy award-winning singer and actress Jill Scott. Her latest album is To Home This May Concern.
When did you realize you could sing? I think I always knew. There's this mine. This wonderful
thing they will calm me down and give me peace and make me laugh and get the feelings out. How do you remember when other people? Yes. Yeah. I was a ninth grade. I did freshman day and the initial audition I had a drummer and it was me and a drummer. We were doing thing from a hygony and movie. Yes. And all the kids were like, because it felt like that, you know. Mr. Murphy who gave me so much did not like that
and played the piano. And I was so disappointed because I really liked the fact that you know, the kids I went to all girl school. All the girls were like, yeah, that's cool. But he took it and played the piano. And I sang it from a different place. It was so sincere. I remember feeling so sincere about those words.
And then the place erupted. It was quiet first. Yeah. And I finished the line and then
silent. And then that was it. That was the moment. Like, oh, you like it, too. Because before then you had been singing but just singing to yourself, not in front of other people.
That in front of other people.
And when you clean it, you know, or, oh, my way to school. Or, you know, on the bus or
every set while playing rope, like, you know, everywhere. There's this story that Quest love from the roots discovered you as part of the spoken word seen in Philadelphia. How do you remember it? I was in a poetry reading. I have been doing it quite a bit. I had my feelings hurt. My girlfriends were like repo, dream. I was like, okay. So I wrote, and my girlfriends were like, you are a poet. I was like, I'm a poet, like, Nicky Teofan.
I'm going to do it more. So I did it more. And um, started to make a little bit of a name
“for myself. And then Questlove came to a poetry reading. I think he was DJing. You might have been.”
I don't know. But he was there. And he asked me if I ever wrote songs. And I was like, yeah, I do. But I did. I lied. What was it in you in that moment that made you say, yeah, I can. And how did that feel knowing that, oh, you might be able to enter this world? I didn't really think about the world. I just honestly enjoyed what I was doing. And you mean there could be more of that? Oh, I would like more of that. So yeah, I went, you know,
when he invited me to the studio to write a hook for them, sure, I'll go. I had been listening to do you want more faithfully? It's one of my favorite albums. Still is to this day. So, you know, this is a big deal to be asked by Questlove. You know, but it's also like Philly,
“because this is the guy that played, you know, on the street corner, right? You knew him at that time.”
I didn't know him. I knew him. I knew him. I knew of him. I knew of them. Yeah, you know, but I don't necessarily assert myself in these places. It has to be organic for me, so it is real. So you enter that studio
and then you start it writing. Yeah. And there's this song you got me, was your first real song
writing credit, a song that you sang for the roots. But the version that we heard was Erica Badoos version. Take us back to that moment. Did you record the track? Yes, um, it all happened in one day, like one afternoon, I went to the studio, Sigma Sound, and Scott Storage, and I were talking hanging out, and he was that just for folks who don't know. Scott Storage is a big time producer now. Okay, big time. Um, and at the time he was playing keys for the roots. So we go into the studio,
“and it was very simple. He started playing a melody. I sang the words. He said, can you record that?”
That's okay. Recorded it. And we went to lunch. We went to an Italian restaurant. I kind of forgot all about it. I don't know why, but I did. You know, either they liked it or they didn't. Yes. And they liked it. So I heard through the great fine. I was told that they liked it, that they were going to use it. Then I heard it was a single. I was like, it's a single. Oh my god,
that's crazy. I can't believe it's happening me. And then I was on a 20 second street. I was looking
for like beauty supplies or walking by the beauty supply places. And I heard the song. And I was like, oh, this is the song. And it wasn't my voice. And I was like, what is whole? And then I knew who it was. You know, I listened to the little music. That's Eric. I do. That's Eric. I do. I made it. So you weren't feeling like, why isn't that my voice? You were feeling, oh my god, Erica, I do is singing my words. I got about 14 good seconds. Wait a minute. What happened? That's
not me. And then I realized it was way bigger than that. Like way bigger. This is a door. A door has opened. You know, and Erica will tell you to herself. She doesn't sing anybody else's music. I didn't know that either. So that knowing that what does that mean to you, knowing that she doesn't sing anyone else's music, but she was singing your words. I'm telling you, it's really ridiculous. Well, you eventually did up to the morning feeling fresh to death. I'm so blessed. Yes.
Yes. Like, well, you eventually ended up touring with the roots. And yes, then you were singing every night. Every city that you went to, you got me. Got a chance to learn. And almost lost that job because I had a manager who wanted to make money. And it's not that I didn't want to make money, but I'm singing one hook on one song. You know, I mean, how much can you really ask somebody to
Pay you to sing one hook?
traveled much. I've learned a money. You know, but now I'm getting to go from city to city and see these
“venues. And I'm performing in front of people. And it's a lot more than poetry readings.”
You know, Jill, your first album came out in 2000 when I was coming into myself as a woman. And
I just want to thank you for for all of what you have put out in the world. You've allowed me to see myself. And it's a beautiful thing. And I can't even, I don't even have the words to tell you. I'm telling you, I really love this Auntie life. Yeah, I really, wherever I can help, I am into it. Wherever I can help, especially when it comes to, I've learned this. When somebody wants something from you, you're giving them a task. If they handle the task and do it well, then you can proceed.
But other than that, you know, people talk a lot. Oh, I want to do this. I want to be this.
I want to go here. Let me see what you do. Do you do that? Because I'm sure you have a lot of
young artists and singers who come to you because they want to, they want advice from you.
“Is that what you do? Yeah. That's what I do. Yeah. Yeah. Let me see what you do.”
This is how I've learned to navigate. What do you have them do? Whatever I need them to do. Yes. Whether it is to learn an album or listen to an album, whether it is a read the Franklin sent me to get her two hot dogs with cooked onions and mustard. You met her. You told her you loved her. Yes. And then she said what?
Go to the corner and get me two hot dogs with cooked onions and mustard. And I went. Yes.
Okay. I think I had the number one album in the country at the time. Yes. And I went to the corner and I got those hot dogs. I brought them back. And I, you know, just wait up and think she ate them. What did that teach you? Well, I would once say be nicer to people. But you got to earn your stripes. Then I was like, oh, you know, I wanted her to be nicer to me to embrace me to tell me that, you know, give me some advice and hold my hand a little bit. But that's not what happened. Okay.
Now I'm in an album. I am that woman to a certain degree. And now I just have a task for you. What are you going to do? Don't waste it. Don't waste my time. Don't waste your time. It's too valuable. And I like this. This is the auntie portion. She's a little tougher. And I like that part. This is good for me. It's good for you, too. If you want it, absolutely. If you want it, I'm very grateful to be a part of so many people's maturation.
There's nothing wrong with being mature. There's nothing wrong with growing up. Jill Scott, this has been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much for your time and for your music and your art. Thank you. You're welcome. Jill Scott's new album is called to whom this may concern. Okay. Here's a set up for bait. A new prime video series. A struggling British Pakistani actor lands the audition of a lifetime as James Bond. Worked it's out. The internet
goes wild and suddenly his life starts to resemble the very character he's auditioning to play. He's in a chase sequence. Except he's not chasing a villain. He's chasing acceptance. The series is part spy thriller, part family comedy, part psychological unraveling, and entirely unlike anything else on television right now. My guest today, Riz Ahmed, created it, wrote it and produced it. And stars as the lead character, Shah Latif.
bait opens with Shah and a Tuxedo, doing a James Bond screen test. He's Devonair, commanding, in control, James Bond personified. And then he forgets his lines.
“Tell me, when it's just you, all alone, how do you live with yourself? Do you even know who you are?”
Line? Sorry. Sorry. It's all good. It's all good. It's just around a bit of a schedule. Yeah, that's why I was thinking a quick reset back to what's on me at this time. How are you blowing
This audition?
What is this a prank show? Where ain't you hitting the camera? That's funny.
I just have a very particular process. I've got my head around it now. I'm ready. I'm sorry,
“I was just a minute sorry. How was your weekend? That's good. Thanks, how was yours?”
Great. What did you do? Just that thing, thanks. Thanks, Jim. That's my son, but I just stop it. Sorry. You know what? I didn't want to see you. I had to convince them. So this is on me. I've got a confession to make. I'm lightheaded from fasting. It's the holy, mostly month. It's called Ramadan. It involves no eating and drinking more in the day. I'm lightheaded from getting a bit of a cultural understanding. Well, I've just seen you doing how
it will be. This moment is the beginning of a wild ride as we watch this character unravel. And Riz has said embedded in the show is a hunger to belong and what it costs someone
when they finally get close to the thing that they've been chasing their whole lives. Riz is an
Emmy award-winning and Oscar-nominated actor who is known for many roles, including the night of an HBO crime drama and which he plays a college student whose life shatters after being accused of murder. And sound of metal, he played a punk drummer grappling with Sutton hearing loss. And in the long good bye, he's part of a British Pakistani family whose ordinary Sunday is shattered by a far right militia. Riz Ahmed earned an Oscar for Best Live Action Short Film. This spring his adaptation
of Shakespeare's Hamlet opens in theaters and Riz welcome back to fresh air. Thank you so much for having me back. What did bond in particular represent to you as a British Pakistani kid growing up
and lying down? Yeah, well I want to deal with the first part what you said first which is Riz playing
and if you don't mind I want to say something that you said to me just before we start recording the interview I said look how do you like the show and you said I feel like I'm sharp. You said that, yeah you said I feel like damn I'm that person. If you don't mind me saying so many people have been saying that and yes there's a lot of me and sharp I think actually there's a lot of shine all of us more than we like to admit and and really the the show is about this feeling that
life sometimes feels like one big audition you know we all feel like we have to perform this version of ourselves that knows the script that as you said is commanding and decisive and desirable the best public version of ourselves we're performing that but actually the gap between that public self and the messy vulnerability of our private selves is often huge you know and that's true
“whether you're talking about how your life is actually going versus the Instagram post you just”
got to put up or that you saw of someone else or like how professional and put together your seeming on a zoom call when actually you're not wearing any pants you know just out of the frame and and so there's a there this just aren't your question like I feel like I'm playing I'm trying to draw in a feeling that it's personal to me but I think it's personal to a lot of people and then that extra component though of playing the man James Bond like he is
considered the ultimate you know in every way absolutely yeah yeah I mean you know the show isn't really about James Bond but James Bond is a very important symbol because he is the ultimate symbol of success yes sure as an actor he is you know the pinnacle of cinematic achievement and yeah it's also just you know for any of us he's this archetype of like like I said decisiveness, desirability of being in control, being unflappable, being in vulnerable and so
I wanted the character of James Bond to serve as this symbol of aspiration is unattainable kind of self that chart is is is hunting down almost and in chasing this this symbol is he abandoning himself is he abandoning where he's from is he abandoning his family has he forgotten actually who he really is and so the show is trying to deal with that and I think that that's something that you know we we all kind of go through where we're often pulled between the people we were and the
people we want to be and actually the healthy equilibrium is probably somewhere in the middle you know probably that thing you want to be is like an attempt to escape yourself and that thing you
“wise maybe you know a version of yourself you need to evolve out of but we often feel pulled”
between those two polaris we're listening to my conversation with Riz Ahmed he stars in the new
Prime video series bait as well as Hamlet a modern reimagining of Shakespeare...
set in London's South Asian community and theaters April 10th we'll hear more of our conversation
“after short break this is fresh air weekend if you're a super fan of fresh air with Terry Gross”
we have exciting news double UHYY has launched a fresh air society a leadership group dedicated to ensuring fresh air's legacy for over 50 years this program has brought you fascinating interviews with favorite authors artists actors and more as a member of the fresh air society you'll receive special benefits and recognition learn more at WHYY dot org slash fresh air society this is fresh air weekend I'm Tanya Mosley let's get back to my interview with Riz Ahmed
he stars in the new prime video series bait he plays a British Pakistani actor auditioning
to be the next James Bond how long did it take for you to work on this concept this idea and come to
what is a genre bending series oh man I started kind of squimming down ideas for this show in 2014 and I started doing that because they said that gap between my public and private self started becoming so big and so stressful they actually started feeling kind of hilarious but give you an example really yeah like the week that it got revealed that you know what Kevin and you star wars and they released it released a cast photograph of us all on set that's
same week I got banned from my local supermarket for suspected shoplifting because my washing machine had broken only clean clothes I had with flip flops bright pink swim shorts and bright green puffer jacket and a tank top I'm dragging a massive bag of dirty clothes around to the laundry
“man I remember it's my brother's birthday I haven't got him a cake I got to test goes I'm trying to get”
him a cake they got no cake I buy a frozen pizza with birthday candles I'm a checkout it seems like an insane thing I'm buying anyway it's like yeah but the candles and pizza I'm dressed insanely I've got this massive laundry bag and I forgot to be pit properly on the checkout and the pizza and it goes off and security like yeah this he looked this person looked kind of shady and we get into a back and forth and I'm sold for a straight at one point I got dude I'm not shoplifting I'm star wars man
and they got okay this person's definitely crazy and you're banned you never come in back here
this is an example about like the messy chaos of who we really are versus the image of success that's somewhere out there publicly and again that's not just true for an actor that's true of everyone who's posting their best selfie on Instagram you know so I started jotting down these little stories to try and just process them and make sense they're like you that was something in these contradictions and juxtaposition that was about me making sense of my own experience
but also that just felt kind of universal if I could just get a handle on it and so I spent many years jotting down these um these ideas um and then it was when I met my co-showrunner Ben Carley and we put the writers room together and all this kind of stuff we realised actually the perfect symbol um for this show is is James Bond and that was partly also because my name had been mentioned in relation to James Bond casting and some articles and and stuff over the years
so in the meta kind of spirit of this show or trying to be as meta as possible and um and have fun with that actually that's a perfect symbol you know that's a perfect symbol of for a character who wants to be anything other than himself who do you want to be he'd want to be James Bond I'm marvel at the the multi nature of this series as I'm watching it I'm just thinking how did he pitch this you know how does one pitch something like this and get it green lid because it's so
well done but it also can't really be explained in one line it's interesting you say it can't be explained in one line because throughout the whole process we struggled with that right and then when we got to the very end of the process we actually found a way of summing up the whole show in one word and and that word is bait and what does that mean I want to pack it for a minute right so bait is a British slang word which means being blatant and in your face and attention seeking
“there we go that's what my character is doing for my series bait is an online term about trolling or”
provoking people online that's a big part of our show as well that element bait in Urdu means your loyalty or your allegiance and that is something that shards contending with it's home versus ambition he's versus west bait in Arabic and Hebrew means home and so much of this show is a love letter to home and it's about family and how far do you travel from home in order to please our more help harm you know and then of course there's a big spy thriller element to our show and
Bait is something that's used as part of a trap and so it's a weird thing whe...
we realize like oh my god we accidentally stumbled on the perfect title for this to actually communicate the entire layer cake of this show it is all those flavors and the word bait means all those things. Rhiz let's talk a little bit about Shakespeare because it wasn't really your thing as a kid until a teacher I hear introduced you to Hamlet what do you remember about that
first encounter with the play and what did it kind of unlock for you? Yeah it's really interesting I
I'm not many people felt like Shakespeare is there pits in me of everything on the outside of it doesn't belong to me it's stuffy it's elitist and I got a government assisted place to a private school where I felt like an outsider for many different reasons and I was lucky enough to have an English teacher called Mr Rose Blade who was a white Jewish middle aged man from a different place in the UK thought we had nothing in common but he spoke fluent Punjabi and he
brought me Hamlet and said you know this thing this story, this character, it's at the heart of the establishment that you feel so alienated from in many ways but have a read of it you might
recognize yourself in this character and I did like millions of people have right? Hamlet being a
character who feels out of place Hamlet himself feels like an outsider he feels like he doesn't belong like no one understands and it really spoke to me as a teenager but more than that what I realized was, hang on a minute, this Hamlet story set in you know medieval Denmark actually is exactly like growing up in Wimbley this is about who you can and can't marry this is about everyone squabbling over the family business this is about the reality and lived experience of spirituality
ghosts and spirit possession which is part of the course it's you know it's it's part of our lived experience culturally and this is also actually kind of pivots on a story point of marrying one's
“sister-in-law if your brother dies which is a cultural tradition I think it's actually a Jewish tradition”
and an ancient Hindu and South Asian tradition I've actually grown up with people who've had to
do that if their brothers died tragically they themselves are unmarried with the consent obviously of their sister-in-law and of a political conversation that they have they go shall we get married it's a way of protecting the orphans and protecting the widow so this didn't feel like this antiquated kind of slightly out of touch piece to me I was like if you put it in my community in my experience this is right now this is completely vivid and completely urgent and it was then
the age of 17 I very procociously had the idea that man I want to I want to make a movie of this one day and I want to I want to set it in that place and and in doing so I hope to kind of render this story more vividly and a more urgent more than way than maybe I've seen it and make it just make it feel real because all those things are so real in that environment what did you have to kind of work through to get to this adaptation because you could have just played Hamlet and put
on a movie adaptation of Hamlet as it is you know I really believe that the amount of time it took was kind of quite divinely guided in a way that's because I feel that this is the moment for this story you know it's a story Hamlet is a story and it's a character who is grieving the
“illusion that the world was ever a fair place and I think that's how we're all feeling now”
we're all grieving and reeling from this realization okay and you the world was unfair but now the shameless brazen unfairness of it is just kind of laid bare and it's about grieving that illusion and it's also about feeling powerless in the face of how unfair it is and it's actually feeling kind of complicit in it and gaslit about it and that's what the play is about and I think that this is when it was meant to be told but for us creatively the part that we were struggling to
unlock is how do you not make this feel just like a Shakespeare performance and a poetry recital how do you not make this feel like a kind of self-congratulatory like actor wants to take on the classic and actually there was the opposite of how we wanted to feel and it would really took us meeting a Neil Carrier the director and it was after I collaborated with him
“on the short film The Long Good Buy for which he won an Oscar that I was like oh I think we”
know how to do this we need a we needed director who's worked a lot in rap music videos we need a director who has actually can render poetry in a very raw way and give us raw action in a very
Poetic way and that's what he did in that short film and that's what he does ...
and we connected and we had a long conversation about how this has to feel like music you know
“there's the classic line from Hamlet to be or not to be that is the question and in your version”
Hamlet delivers this famous politically basically speeding through the rain at a hundred miles an
hour and I want to play a little bit of it let's listen to play will not to be is the question whether it's no longer an amount to suffer the slings and arrows of our ages for you will take arms against the sea of troubles by posing and the die to sleep no more or by sleep to say we are not taking the thousand natural shops the flesh is there to
the consummation the foul we need to be wish to die to sleep sleep it shows to dream this is the rub that is my guest is Ahmed and his latest film adaptation of Hamlet and Riz you've talked about this before
but for most of us we're kind of taught that this speech is about suicide basically
“Hamlet is weighing whether life is worth living and you came to believe something entirely different”
is happening in those lines what do you think Hamlet is actually asking yeah I don't think it's about suicide at all it's about fighting back against oppression even if you know if you will lose everything possibly even your life it's actually it's very clear in black and white in the tech the active verb here is about taking a respect to take up arms you know what he's saying is there's two choices you can carry on being and it's very interesting says be not living
just be you can exist and you can exist and just suffer all the oppression and all the unfairness and all the injustice of the world and all the insults that life throws at you or you can fight back but fighting back might mean you will not no longer be so it's really about whether we are willing to pay the price of true resistance you know and and it's actually a very very radical speech it's very confronting it's tackling a taboo subject really
you know the idea of taking up arms and resisting oppression and the powers of be it's dangerous idea actually can get you arrested we'd discuss that openly to this day I mean Shakespeare was a wordsmith he's working in verse and rhythm and I'm thinking about your background in rap and you're politically charged album and I'm wondering did that hip hop instinct shape at all how you heard and deliver these lines yeah very very much so very much so
he's my take on it a lot of people find a block with Shakespeare because they'd find it difficult to understand what the words mean I totally get it I often feel the same way he's a thing people in Shakespeare's day themselves did not speak like that
“they didn't say that Shakespeare made up like between three and five thousand new words I think”
this is a misdemeanor the word eyeball is a word that he made up you imagine here that for the first
time or what ball and I what he made that up and one thing he played with all the time was rhythm rhythm rhythm rhythm rhythm and so in the same way that when I listen to some of my favorite rappers new songs I don't know what they say the first time round but I am totally wrapped I'm totally leaning in I'm engaged I feel it emotionally it's the same way your first experience of this thing is supposed to be like music you didn't catch all of the words but that word therefore weird enough
to make you sit up and we're just supposed to do is receive an electric charge of rhythm and melody and musicality just like rap music but that's not the actual experience of these plays so I wish more people spoke about Shakespeare in that way because to me it is much more like music than it is like you know an English class did you come to this understanding as at 17 year old
Whose teacher introduced you did you see that connection because you were kin...
moment that time yeah it's a it's such a such an interesting connection to me you know I think it's
“an inevitable one to make really you know if you're interested in poetry if you're interested in”
lyricism if you're interested in rhythm like Shakespeare's doing that he's playing in in all those arenas and so it was clear to me very early on but something it isn't also lost on me is at the same time I was studying under Rob Clare and doing the Masters in classical acting which is essentially just at Masters in just in Shakespeare performance that's when I started on the rap battle circuit
in London and things like jump off from battle scars and Bombay Bronx and you know competing
all these championships and and so it did somehow in my mind feel like it's it's one thing as you've mentioned riz you grew up in wimbly and northwest London the son of Pakistani parents who immigrated in the 1970s take me back to when you were teenage riz and you were DJing and rapping you started on pirate radio how did you discover pirate radio so I grew up in you know in the 1990s in the UK I grew up in wimbly wimbly is both you know the site of England's greatest triumphant
in the 1966 World Cup and also in the shadow of that stadium I'd go every Sunday to wimbly market
which is way you'd by you know by the the Chinese spring roll and the immigrant kind of food stores and the fake design and clothes that we'd buy and sell over there you know amongst that kind of working class and immigrant community and pirate radio station culture was just everywhere you know yes you'd have you know the BBC radio stations and the other London stations but in between all those airwaves the one that's all the FM frequencies that were not spoken for you can't faint
crackle and then the voice of MCs or microphones or broadcasting from the rules of housing projects locally and that's pirate radio culture so it was there that was it kind of exposed more and more to drum and bass and garage particularly when I was too young to actually go to the raves themselves soon as old as I was old enough to kind of try and hack off whatever faint facial hair I had and try and like grow it back thicker you know I was at the raves themselves and you know I just love
“the music I love the specificity of London's musical sub culture and the UK I think does that”
so well you know because of the the clash and the mix of different of different cultures and different sounds and influences so yeah I was exposed to it and then I started doing it myself both the raves and and on pirate radio and I remember when I went to Oxford and I got in there I felt like I'd lost something I'd lost this thing that I loved and so I was eager to kind of keep it going and that's when I started you know promoting my own club nights and it became a really
invaluable place where every week without fail I could on my craft I could try out new lyrics I
“could gain confidence as a performer and I think it helped me not just as an MC but as an actor”
or is this has been such a pleasure to talk with you thank you so much thank you for having me and thank you for the wonderful conversation. Riz Ahmed stars in a reimagining of Hamlet which opens in theaters in April and the new prime video series "Bait". Fresh air weekend is produced by Theresa Madden. Fresh air is executive producer, is Sam Brigher, our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham with Terry Gross.
I'm Tanya Mosley.
