Harrison Ford

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NPR app, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Fresh Air, I'm Terry Gross, is there anyone who doesn't know who Harrison Ford is? Probably not. Not after starring in the original and the sequels of Star Wars, the Indiana Jones movies and Blade Runner, he's in his 80s but in the last three years you might have seen him in

the final Indiana Jones film The Dial of Destiny, the prequel to Yellowstone called 1923, and his current series Shrinking, three seasons of Shrinking are streaming on Apple TV, and it's been renewed for a fourth. He plays the therapist, Paul, who heads a practice that includes two other therapists, Jimmy played by Jason Seagull and Gabby played by Jessica Williams.

Paul has had an age where most people have retired, but he doesn't want to. At the same time, he thinks maybe he needs to. He has Parkinson's disease. It first the symptoms were relatively minor, but they've progressed. His hands shake so much it's difficult to put the toothpaste onto the toothbrush.

Even more problematic because it affects his work, his shaking hands are making it difficult to take notes when he's talking with patients. Michael J. Foxes in a couple of episodes playing a man who has a more advanced case of Parkinson's and is very depressed. They first meet at a doctor's office where they're both patients.

Paul was a gifted therapist, but it's hard for him to express emotion and he has a dark and cynical sense of humor. In this scene from the current season, season three, Paul has returned to work after taking some time off because a UTI was causing hallucinations. So this scene is from his first day back at work.

He's telling Jimmy, he thinks it might be time to retire. In the past, Paul had asked Jimmy to tell him when he thought it was time. Now Jason Seagulls character Jimmy speaks first. Hey, that was your first day back. Really great.

I think it's time for me to start being a therapist. Do you Paul? I'm not going to fall for that one twice. No, I'm serious. It took going away and coming back to see it.

It's time Jimmy. I'm supposed to tell you that it's time.

“I'm supposed to tell you that it's time for me to do that if you want to.”

It's time for you to retire, Paul. Okay. Not the last time that's going in my head, you know, I don't mess you up. You mean so so much to me.

I've always wanted to tell you this one thing.

I'm going to say it. Jesus, Jimmy. Please. I'm not leaving now. The patience to notify.

I've got no referrals to make. It'll take months to wind down this practice. You only get to say goodbye once and it's not today. My one piece on the way home. Let's go.

Let's go. Harrison Ford, welcome to you for a share. It's such an honor to speak with you. Thank you for being here. Well, I'll kind of give you a thank you for having me.

Some people are surprised that you're continuing to act, you know, in your 80s. And Paul says, after his Parkinson's has gotten worse in his thinking of retiring. He says, I love my job more than anything. And I don't know who I am without it.

“Do you relate to that or do you know who you are without your work?”

Yeah, I guess I do. But without my work, I really wouldn't know what to do with myself, really. With your time? Well, I suppose I could film my time, but I don't know what else. I might do that would give me the kind of satisfaction and the kind of challenge that the work I'm doing does give me.

I really do love the work. I don't blame you. It seems like it would be so fulfilling. Well, it constantly changes and the people change in the mission and the opportunity change. And it just makes for an interesting way to live your life.

And I love that you play your age because it's frustrating when like a beautiful woman plays somebody who's ugly by just not wearing as much makeup.

But she's never ugly or a young person has to play an older person by putting on prosthetics.

Like, we have talented people who look like they're supposed to look, can we cast them, please?

But sometimes it works and I thought it worked in Indiana Jones, the deaging part.

But I'm happy to be the age of him and I have no impulse to hide it. Well, speaking of Indiana Jones, so dial of destiny was like 2023, it was really easy. And you know, you're still like super strong and agile in that. And then you had to go from that to not long after doing shrinking. And so in shrinking, you're physically compromised because of the Parkinson's disease.

“What was it like for you and your body to be action hero strong?”

And then your hand is shaking too much to take notes.

Well, I mean, it starts with the head of the characters of what's in his head. What's in his mind and the voice aware of this physicalization of a character. And the Parkinson's, or the various symptoms of Parkinson's, do the help characterize the Paul. And so it's an opportunity to use another means to create the character. Oh, Michael J. Fox is in the series and you meet a doctor's office. He's really depressed.

Did he give you advice about how to play the role and didn't really, you didn't ask him for advice?

No, because every case is different and my case is not yet described to me fully.

My writer is present symptomology and characteristics as they are writing. And so I'm sort of living with the symptoms I have been last described as having. Yeah, I mean, the thing about Parkinson's is that it affects everything, but it affects different parts of like there's a whole long list of things that affects, but everybody gets a different number of them and a different variation of them. Right, right. But tremors, everybody gets, you know.

So like a true Parkinson's patient, I don't really know what's coming. Oh, that's interesting, even like what the writers have in store for you in terms of your symptoms. Yeah, you know, we have a general sense of how far it goes this season, but nothing specific yet. And that's just the way our show works, we get a script probably. If we're lucky a couple weeks ahead of time, but normally maybe just a couple of days or a week ahead of time.

“Did playing the role make you think about your body in a new way and think of what it would be like to not be able to control your movements?”

And not specifically, I'm to be honest, no. There's parts of it I haven't thought through yet, really. And I think that might be similar to how I might react if I did have Parkinson's. I would want to know certain things and other things I would just not want to know. So is to not obsess on them. So is to not be looking for them just. Right.

Be happy enough with what you got. Hmm. Paul, your character is a very cynical sense of humor. He's really funny, very dark retorts. And you have a very funny sense of humor. I heard you on Conan's podcast.

And you will make Conan and like the whole team left like so much and so hard.

“Do you ever punch up your lines or add like funny lines?”

Because honestly, like your sense of humor is so good. Sure stuff comes up and we have really good writers and I love what they have to offer. But you know, it's a collaborative atmosphere and feel free to bring up any idea I have. Can you think of a line that you added in one of your movies or in... I guess the most famous, the one most well known and perhaps illustrative of...

I know.

“I know instead of saying I love you too, which is the scripted line.”

Simply the impulse was to be more in character and George Lucas who had written a line was not so... Not so happy that I didn't give him the original version, but I really felt strong about it. So he made me sit next to him when you previewed the film in a public movie theater in San Francisco. And it got a laugh, but he got a good laugh. And so he accepted it and loved it in.

So one has to play another scene from shrinking, and this is from the first season.

I think it's the pilot actually. So Jimmy, who's one of the therapist in Paul's office, and he's played by Jason Seagull. He's really annoyed with his patients for not changing when he's told them they have to change and stop doing the thing that's making them miserable. But this is just an expression of his disorientation and grief because his wife died a year or two ago in a car crash and he hasn't recovered. He hasn't been himself since her death.

So this is the scene where he's talking to your character, Paul, and explaining why he's so angry. And also you'll hear Jessica Williams as therapist Gabby, and Harrison Ford, you speak first. Hey, kid. How you doing? I'm normal, you know.

It's normal day, normal day, doing it, doing it normal style.

“Hey, you know what I was thinking, Paul, sit about how you're just doing it normal style?”

What do you think? You guys don't get so mad at your patients that all of a sudden, you just want to... Shake them.

Well, we don't shake them.

No, I know. I know. I'm rooting for them. I am. I'm like, come on.

You **** up person. You can change. And then... They just never do. Compassion fatigue.

We all hit those walls. Yes, questions. You listen. You stay nonjudgmental.

And you don't make that face.

Sorry. We just... Look, we know what they should do. You know why? That's pretty simple.

I get sad when I do this thing. Maybe don't do that thing. We know the answer. Don't you ever want to just make them do it? Great idea.

We just rob them of their autonomy. Any chance they have to help themselves, right? And we become one. Psychological vigilantes. Oh my god.

I'm like, seriously, the sarcasm. But that sounds kind of badass. I like that scene a lot. So you have an experience like the body symptoms of Parkinson's.

“Even though you have to portray them in your role.”

But you have experience a whole lot of injuries that you sustain making movies. Including on your last Indiana Jones film in 2023. So I'll run through a list of things that I've read. And you can confirm that you've had this. You're ruptured a disc in Indiana Jones on the Temple of Doom.

You tore a ligament in the fugitive and star wars. The force awakens a hydraulic door closed on you and you broke your leg and entered your ankle. And in Indiana Jones on the dial of destiny. You entered your shoulder while you were rehearsing. So how are you dealing with pain?

Pretty good. It sounds, it sounds like I'm accident prone. Oh, not to me, it sounds like you're in movies where you do dangerous things. And of course you'd get some injuries. Yeah, it's running jumping falling down.

Yeah, there you go. And I gave it the office. Let's put it that way. But could they major do it? No, nobody makes me do it.

You know, I make the choices of whether I want to do something. They'll often tell me, no, you can't do it. Like don't do this now. Yeah, it was not a stunt. If I'm doing it, it's by definition not a stunt.

But that doesn't mean it's not risky. Well, what it means is that I want the audience to be with the character through the activity that we're talking about. I don't want to have to hide the face of the character because it's a stunt guy. I want them to feel the blow. I want them to see the anxiety.

I want them to be there when the decision is made or when the decision is missed.

And it takes me being there to bring them along, I think.

What's the closest you've come in real life to an action scene? I suppose we won't be satisfied unless we talk about the airplane accident.

“You just occurred to me, that's what you might say.”

Well, I've got to face the music done. But then, let's just start by saying that it was a mechanical failure. And I mentioned here it was a World War II vintage plane. Yeah, it was a 74-year-old airplane and I was 74 years old at the time.

It was a beautiful day and I had just recovered from an earlier accident.

And had gone out with a bunch of guys at a mountain bike ride. And I came home and sitting in the hot tub and I tried to talk my wife into going with me for a ride because it was such a beautiful day. She jamured and had a lunch with my daughter and asked her if she wanted to go and she said no. So I went by myself and 400 feet in the air above the airport, the engine quit. And it's my home airport.

I was familiar with the surrounding terrain, which is cluttered with houses, wires and cars and people. So I turned to a golf course that was there. And when I landed, my seat belt pulled out of the place where it was secured. So I got a major blow on the head, which resulted in a brain injury that was described to me that I didn't remember the moments because it was retrograde, amnesia, a kind of protective device of the brain.

“So I don't really remember that much about it.”

I remember telling the tower when I declared the emergency that the instruction they gave me was not going to be followed. Because I didn't have enough altitude to do what they wanted suggested. Anyway, that's the story in a nutshell. So you said it was a protective form of amnesia, so it wouldn't have the memory of falling and crashing. Are you grateful for that?

I wasn't falling and crashing, because I had my, in my ear, was the very clear voice of one of my aviation mentors, Bob Hoover,

a famous pilot who always, when talking about mechanical failures or other kinds of failures.

The advice was to fly the airplane as far into the crash as possible. You think about this thing when you're a pilot. You think about the potential of possibility of it happening, and of course you train. So when it happened, it was not really a surprise. And I thought I knew what I had to do to handle it.

So I just started doing the things that needed to be done. Did you drove the plane into the ground to fly into the crash? No, I maneuvered the airplane using what gravity was going to give me. And what the airplane could do, powered only by gravity, and to mitigate the consequence came at the ground.

“Now that's what I did. I just picked a spot in, was in the process of landing there.”

I had run out of energy to maintain lift, so it wasn't a smooth landing. It was more of a crash, but I had not landed on anybody else, and I had, I was in a clear space. You know, so I'd done what I needed to do. Did you think you were going to die? No, I did not. When the engine quit, I did not think.

No, I just flew the airplane. I don't remember actually being scared. That's amazing. Yeah, what were your injuries? They were more than described in the newspaper.

But I'm over them all. Thank you. Got my license back, and continue to fly. Were you afraid to fly at all afterwards? No. No.

and just keep going and not be afraid.

I don't think I'm not being afraid.

“I just, I don't put myself in a situation where I think there's going to be a adverse consequence.”

You know, I'm not a thrill-seeker. I was a very, I am a very conservative pilot. So, you know, it's not that I do crazy stuff for the front of it. This is exactly what I hear work our respondents say. That they're careful that don't take unnecessary risks. No, it's a dirty job, but somebody's going to do it.

Okay, time for a break. I have to reintroduce you through just joining us.

My guest is Harrison Ford, and he's now starring in the series Shrinking, which is streaming on Apple TV. We'll be right back. This is fresh air.

“This message comes from wise. The app for international people using money around the globe.”

You can send, spend, and receive an up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps. Be smart, get wise, download the wise app today or visit wise.com. T's and C's apply. Hi, this is Molly CV Nusper, digital producer at Fresh Air. And this is Terry Gross, host of the show.

One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter. And I'm a newsletter fan. I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week shows, staff recommendations, and Molly picks timely highlights from the archive. It's a fun read. It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week.

And exclusive. So subscribe at www.org/FreshAir and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning. So you live in LA, but you also have a ranch in Wyoming where you spend a lot of time. And you've said that when you're asked about religion, you're explained that nature is the equivalent of God or religion for you. When did you start thinking of nature that way? When I had to explain why I was not going to accept the invitation to go to Vietnam.

You're drafted? I was facing being drafted. And I hired a lawyer to represent me to the draft board. And I had to explain why I might qualify as a conscientious objecter. I explained that I did not have a history of religious affiliation.

My mother was Jewish, my father, Catholic, to give me any ethical understanding. I was raised Democrat. So I'm quite happy to accept other people's versions of God. But I found in a Protestant theologian, Paul Tillick, a sentence that said, "If you have trouble with the word God, take whatever is central and most meaningful to your life and call that God."

And to me that was life itself, the complexity, the biodiversity, the incredible integration and complexity of nature, to me seemed to be the same thing as God. And so I prepared an explanation that was probably so unusual that it found the edge of a desk. And had a lot of things piled on top of it because it didn't fit a niche.

They never got back to me, basically, the draft board never got back to me.

“So you grew up in Chicago, would you describe the neighborhood?”

I looked in a neighborhood of apartment buildings, forestry apartment buildings. My father was working in advertising, we have comfortable middle-class kind of environment. My father was a radio actor, a certain point in his life. He did a show on the Vodal Circuit with four or five other guys in a show that was called gangbusters.

And did a radio play.

That was his theatrical career.

He later did a bit of writing. And then became a producer and director of television commercials. Wow, anyone's at record note? Each weekend, because my father's job, we would go to the Lincoln Park Zoo, where he was in charge of doing live commercials for Kimberation Dog Food.

And so I would go with my dad, and it's been time with Marlon Perkins, who is the... Oh, who ran the Lincoln Park Zoo and had a program called Zoo Parade, which was on every Saturday. So I got behind the scenes, tours of the animal enclosures.

“And it might have been part of my sense of tithing to nature, I think it is.”

What I want to do now is play a speech when you got the SAG, the Screen Actors Guild, Lifetime Achievement Award. And it was a very moving speech. So this is an excerpt of it, and this is a very recent.

In my third year of college, I was a little lost.

I was failing at school. I fell to isolated along. And then I found the company of people putting on plays, story tellers.

“People I once thought were misfits and geeks turned out to be my people.”

I found a calling, a life in storytelling, and a denigy in pretending to be other people. The work I do with other actors is one of the great joys of my life. My career is built on their work, as well as the work of writers, directors, and every single cast member. Every cool member I've ever been on the set with.

I've had incredible collaborators at every step of the way.

And being able to deliver the work we create together is to an audience as an honor and a privilege. And because of that privilege, I've come to know myself. You are tearing up during that speech. Will you prepare for that? No.

Not really. I was trying not to do that. Why were you trying not to do that?

“Just because I wanted to convey it, I didn't want to posture.”

So you said on that that you thought that the theater people were misfits and geeks, but they turned out to be your people. What made you think of them as misfits and geeks? All right, just ignorance, stupidity. I wasn't a student athlete, I wasn't a student, you know, involved in a student government. I didn't find a place in the college culture, you know, environment.

I was just mischaracterizing people that I didn't really know. That speech that I wrote was not crafted to be emotional. It just happened to me and it's, I feel slightly embarrassed by it because I have enough experience with these things to want to be able to. Manage, not to be overcome.

We expressed all these feelings that sound kind of, they can sometimes sound a little, you know, excessive or, you know, not deeply felt at the moment.

You're felt deeply felt at the moment and people really responded to it. And people are very generous to me. My guest is Harrison Ford and he's now starring in this series Shrinking, which is streaming on Apple TV. We'll be right back. This is fresh app. This message comes from wise, the app for international people using money around the globe.

You can send, spend, and receive an up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps. Be smart, get wise, download the wise app today or visit wise.com, tease and seize apply.

“So you were in season 18 of Gunsmoke and it had like two more seasons after that. You were in a regular, you were on, I think, two episodes.”

So this is in the 1970s already and there were two more seasons after that. Did you grow up watching Gunsmoke?

Not really. Because my dad did television commercials. We had the first TV in our neighborhood. And I remember watching Ed Sullivan and shows like that.

And I'm sure what we did do. I don't know if Gunsmoke was on at the time, I think, I think was Gene Autry that I was seeing on television. I like Gene Autry more because it has songs in it. He's a singing cowboy. I'm like James Arnass. So in the episode that I'm going to play a clip from, you were one of the villains. You were one of the bad guys coming in, Gunsmoke from Marshall Dillon, who was out of town. And you're threatening people, you're robbing people, you and you're gang, you're taking over the town. And you stop in the saloon where, you know, Miss Kitty, who owns the saloon in Dodge City. She's always there. Of course, she's there when you come in.

And you and another of the villains are just kind of like taunting her. And so Miss Kitty is played by Amanda Blake and she speaks first.

My name's Kitty Russell, my place.

“Hey Miss Russell, you have name of Pack of cards around this here, fancy house.”

All right, come on, let's get to bed. All right, so that's you. Oh, really? Wow. Well, you don't recognize your voice. I don't remember any of it.

It's temporary. I see. To protect yourself. Yeah, I'd have good reason.

“So you lost two teeth in Gunsmoke. One of your early injuries. What happened?”

I was supposed to be a bad guy. My sheriff was walking up the stairs. I guess I was trying to remember it. I was shooting out the window and I turned and saw the sheriff. And shots were exchanged. And what happened was as I fell to the ground wounded the gun dropped and then bounced up and hit me in the teeth. And knocked out several of my teeth right in front of my mouth.

I was under contract to universal at the time. And so I went to their dentist, the studio dentist. And he fixed up my teeth. And within about two months they started falling apart. And the studio didn't do anything about it.

So I called his office and apparently the dentist that had worked on me had left the practice and his partner. So I was stuck with teeth that were falling out of my mouth and I had to pay for my own replacements. Oh, even though the studio had hired the dentist, you had to pay for his trotty work?

So you worked for a couple of studios before them. Are you working the contract?

Which you always say was a good thing because they were hardly paying you anything.

And they would have been hardly paying you anything for seven years because you had like a seven year contract. And that's when you started working with like Spielberg and Copila and George Lucas. And what's interesting to me about that among many other things is that you had bad experiences. It's studios and there are three of the people who created alternate studios. And they had this vision that they didn't have to work with the existing studios.

They could form their own production companies and their own studios.

“Do you think about that a lot about how that was like the start of something brand new and you were a part of it?”

Yeah, I do. I don't think of it often, but I mean, I recognize that there was a change happening in that. These guys were becoming important to the business overall. It was exciting at the time to be even a small part of what was happening. My guest is Harrison Ford and he's now starring in the series Shrinking, which is streaming on Apple TV. We'll be right back. This is fresh air.

So after being an episodic TV like Gunsmoke and the Virginia and anything like the FBI, why is that one of them? Oh, there were lots. Yeah, so then you got the part in American graffiti where you're somebody who loves to raise cars.

“And it's not a big part, but it's a significant part. And American graffiti kind of tangentially led to star wars.”

You're a carpenter in between because you weren't getting enough work. So you're working for Copa as a carpenter doing something in his home or his office. Well actually, I was working for Dean Tavallaris, who was Francis's art director. And Francis had moved into new offices at Golden Studios. And Dean had designed an entrance to the offices.

And the studio mill would chop, had made all the pieces for this entrance. And Dean needed somebody to install it. And so he asked me if I would do him a favor because he couldn't find a carpenter to get it installed. I said that I would do the job, I'd be happy to do the job.

“But I only wanted to work at night because I didn't want to confuse the people in the office about whether I was a carpenter or an actor.”

You want a carpenter to be your side gig, you were an actor. Yeah, well, I wanted them to think of me as an actor, to think of me as a carpenter. So I was there sweeping up. I was just finishing the job when George Lucas walked in with Richard Dreyfus, who had been an American graffiti. We had all of us who had been an American graffiti had been told that we would not be considered for the far hours, because George wanted new faces.

And here he is having a, you know, the first interview with Richard Dreyfus.

And I'm standing there in my carpenter's work belt sweeping up the floor. But it turned out to be a fortuitous occasion, because weeks later I would end up being asked if I would do them a favor and read with the other actors who were being considered for the parts. So you'd just be feeding them the lines. That's right. But he was auditioning your partner right you.

That's correct. I never was told that I was ever to be considered. And then at the end of the process, I guess they ended up with two groups of three people that were in the final consideration.

And I've always been amused that in the second group of the character of Han Solo would have been played by Chris Walken.

Oh, I would have, I would have loved to see that. Oh, but that's so interesting.

He's so great. I guess lines reading are so unusual. Yeah. So you're surprised you got the part. Yeah, thrilled.

“So I'm going to play a clip just so we get in the moment.”

So this is a scene from Star Wars the first one in which Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker and you as Han Solo along with Chubaka are on the Death Star.

And R2D2 and C3PO are there with you as well. And where you find out that Princess Leia is being held in detention and is likely to be killed. And the person, the android, breaking the news to you is C3PO who is portrayed by Anthony Daniels. I'm afraid she's scheduled to be terminated. No.

We've got to do something. What are you talking about? The choice belong to her. She's the one in the message. We got to help her.

No, look. Don't get me funny ideas. The old man wants us to wait right here. He didn't know she was here. We just put a way back into the detention mark.

I'm not going anywhere. They're going to execute her. Look a few minutes ago you said you didn't want to just wait here to be captured. Now all you want to do is stay. Mark, you can do the detention area is not what I had in mind.

But they're going to kill her. Better her than me. She's rich. Rich. Rich.

Powerful. Listen, if you were to rest your words, the reward would be one. Well, more wealth than you can imagine. I don't know. I can imagine quite a bit.

You'll get it. All right. So what's your reaction to hearing that? It seems like a long time ago in a galaxy far far away. Right.

Did the script make sense to you without being able to visualize to Baca or R2D2 or C3PO or the special effects? You didn't have, you just got what's called the sides. You're part. And you didn't have a larger context.

It was probably hard to actually have an idea of what the film was like.

But when you saw the film for the first time with the special effects and with the

“Android and with the stirring music behind it, what did you think?”

I was blown away. I mean, I was really shocked by the power of the film when I saw it. We shot in England and our English crew were not used to something like Star Wars. They were pretty sure that it was going to be a disaster. And we weren't far from that opinion ourselves.

The actors. But it did okay. Well, yeah, it did okay. Yeah. Ellen John once asked you if you're going to write a memoir.

I think that was after he wrote his. And you, I, I, I've read that, that what you told him was that you didn't want to tell the truth, but you don't want to lie. And I thought that was an interesting position to take, especially in time when a lot of people share absolutely everything.

Yeah. Can you say more about that? Well, I don't think Elton was, was, I thought I had the best answer. Because he is brutally honest about himself. And I'm not prepared to be brutally honest about myself.

“Is it out of self protection or protection protecting other people or both?”

Probably both. Yeah. It's just, I, I just don't think it's anybody's business. So anyway. So I said, all good for you to be interviewed all the time, like in this interview.

And, and you have things that are like really private. I've tried to like not invade your privacy.

You know, you've been very gracious and, and I, it's always a struggle.

I think to know how to control this volume of information about yourself. Well, it's, it's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you coming back on our show. Oh, thank you.

And I really appreciate it. Congratulations on getting season four of shrinking and congratulations on this sag lifetime achievement award. And congratulations on giving such a great acceptance speech. You're very kind. Thank you.

Seasons one, two, and three are streaming on Apple TV.

“And it's been renewed for a fourth season.”

Tomorrow on Fresh Air, we'll talk about how these days more and more Americans are bidding on sports.

But they're also bidding on elections, award shows,

“and even the removal of foreign leaders.”

Almost everything. Ryder McKay Coppins went inside that gambling world for the Atlantic.

He'll share what he found and how it changed his perspective on betting.

I hope you'll join us.

“To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews,”

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Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.