Challenging the Pope: The Avignon Papacy

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The Avignon papacy has been in the news.

If you asked me, it probably always should be, given that it has to be one of the most

interesting facets of church history.

“So what I noticed people talking about it, I decided that was as good an excuse as”

any to attempt that rare thing in emergency medieval history podcast. Because the thing about the Avignon papacy is that the phrase itself might bring a lot of bells for people, but most don't actually quite understand what it was. And look, this makes a lot of sense, as not everyone has had the opportunity to do a lot of in-depth learning about the medieval church.

And even those who have done might fall prey to the propaganda surrounding this period. After all, it isn't unusual to see this 77-year period from about 1309 to 1376 as the Babylonian captivity.

That's a pejorative, indicating what people see as a specifically politicized and profligate

era. This is a seductive view, and let's face it. The Babylonian captivity is an incredibly fun epithet throw around.

“But can we ever say that there was a period of time when the papacy wasn't political?”

And why are we assuming that French politics are worse and more deleterious than Roman politics? And does anyone stop to consider that 14th-century Rome was often a war zone? In other words, I have a lot of points to make about one of my favorite aspects of the medieval history.

Luckily for me, I also have a really great co-host who is willing to be dragged into my special interests when they constitute an emergency that is. So today I'm gone medieval, Matt is on day release from his dungeon, so I can talk to him about the lows, and often overlooked ties of the Avignon papacy. Hi, Matt.

Hello, I can't believe you dragged me away from some dungeon admin for this. I was going to claim that I'm a bloody co-owner today. Yeah, I know, I'm sorry, but it's so unusual for us to have the medieval emergency. And also, we need, like, what a medieval hunting horn, like, clocks and sound for breaking news.

Boo, boo, boo, boo. There you go. We've breaking these. Someone mentioned the Avignon papacy, and, you know, I realize that this is my one of my several hobby horses, like I love the Avignon papacy.

And as a way of getting out in front of it, I thought that, you know, maybe you could ask me what my problem is and why I'm so obsessed with being a great, I get asked question as to a guest. And I don't have to listen to you, I just don't have to kill you. Say I can cut you off, I can satch you on everything.

This is going to be brilliant. Wow. Okay. Now, never mind. Next time we're recording it in the dungeon, I'm keeping you chained up.

That's it. Okay. Best behavior on. Okay. So, as you mentioned, it's been in the news recently for you and I, the idea of secular leaders

That's been going on. That's why. That's kind of like the standard state of affairs, really, as far as I'm concerned, you know. And we've talked about this for, you know, we've talked a lot about the Investiture Contest

or Controversy.

“But I think that the Avignon papacy is one of these interesting ones because I think”

it's a cat trace, like a lot of people have heard about the Avignon papacy, but I don't think that they really understand what it means if that makes sense. It's been chucked around a little bit in the news at the moment, isn't it? So, we're going to get to the bottom of what it is, why it's important, what actually happened and what it really does mean.

So, I guess to, to orient us first off, when are we talking about, when does the Avignon

papacy happen? So, this is one of the reasons why I love it so much. This is 14th century. Baby, like most of the color off. Yeah.

Exactly. And so we kick off in 1309 is when the actual papal career moves to Avignon. So, like the actual mechanism of the church itself leaves Rome and moves to Avignon. But as I'm sure you have surmised the things that set that ball in motion are happening earlier on and really, I would say this is one of the biggest stories of the 14th century.

And it kicks off right in 1,300, that's when things start getting dicey. I would say, yeah, I was trying to work out how to phrase questions to get at the background of all of this. And the question that I wrote down is, what's wrong with Rome? So much, right?

And this is one of the things that I think a lot of people don't quite understand because there is this tendency to relate to the Avignon papacy as well. The French in air quotes sort of get a little too big for their bridges and they steal the papacy. And that tends to not understand what's going on in Rome at the time.

“So one of the things that you have to really keep in mind is that Rome has been a super”

tricky place for quite some time.

In the first place, you have a lot of militarized fighting between two groups of people

who are called The Guelves, who are pro-pope, and The Gibblings, who are pro-embro. And this breaks out and fighting constantly, constantly. And depending on who gets elected pope, sometimes you kind of have pro-gibbling popes. Sometimes you do not, this really kind of is going to color what is happening in Rome because things get violent very very quickly.

And that's true of the rest of the Italian peninsula as well. So for example, if really the floor and teens are super involved in this, there's all this very dramatic political horse-broken going on in the backgrounds between these two factions. So that's why I'm going to give you a big tick for how quickly you got the Holy Roman Emperor

involved there. Thank you.

Crick tick for the empire.

And I guess a lot of this, as you kind of mentioned there, revolves around people relations with secular powers, which is that this is a hot topic throughout the medieval period. We've talked about it before in the context of the Crusades and the ways that hopes are trying to galvanize the secular world and almost present themselves as the leader of kings, they're the king of kings, kind of positioning themselves all around there.

“And I think my understanding is as we lead up to some of this, there's a lot of that still”

going on and the Pope is still trying to say, hang on, I'm the boss really. Yeah, I think that you'll find I'm the guy. If there's rather a lot of I'm, I'm actually the guy. And in particular, the best to ever do it with this in the 14th century is a pope called Boniface, the eighth.

So there's a lot, I'm sorry to everybody, there's a lot of bonifaces, there's a lot of clements, because that is just what is going down at the time, it was very much the style. And there are a lot of Benedict's involved in all this. But Boniface, the eighth comes into power after the previous pope, Celestine, the fifth abdicated.

That was one of the last times there was a big medieval emergency. Remember when the pope abdicated and then everyone this hill that said is he allowed to do that? Yes. And Celestine the fifth was real tired of all you people and he got out of here, right?

And so, Boniface, the eighth deal is that he's super, super big on the idea of the church wielding temporal power. So he is incredibly involved in politics, in France, in Sicily, in Scotland, because this is during the Scottish Wars of Independence. And he is also really involved in systematizing canon laws.

13th, early 14th century, we're working with his stuff, he makes this big book called

the Lieber Sex Dis, and we always end up having to go back to it.

So actually, thank you, Boniface, I like you're a real one, we do appreciate that. The thing is everybody hates this, all right, like everybody hates this guy, who is in a way, any way, a secular among the prominent haters of Boniface, the eighth is your friend in mind Dante Aligiri. This is in surprising, because Dante is a Florentine and Florentine politics right with

well-gibbling issues. And so, indeed, you will find Boniface the eighth in the inferno. He is in hell among the Simone X, who are people who buy and sell offices for money. So that's a pretty big thing to say about a Pope for Dante isn't it, you know, the Pope is going to hell, that's a big thing to be saying.

100% and it also just goes to show you that Pope's do this really great version of

“jumping up and saying I'm the most important guy, and people in the temporal world are”

either going to take that or leave it.

And even Italians are not necessarily going to agree with that, you know, again, Italians

in their quotes, there's no such thing as an Italian at the time, Bobo de Bobo. Right. So there are going to be a lot of computing the sentiments. But this will really come to a head with the King of France to fill up the fourth. And who is also another big personality that we're bringing on to the stage.

Now he's a name of people may recognize he's involved in lots of stuff that is going on that we'll touch on a little bit later, but there is some huge personalities around at this point in time. Yeah, and these are some of the biggest names in medieval history. And also, you know, the 14th century is one of just the wildest periods of history that

ever happened to the world, let alone Europe, right. And so these are people who are involved in really large international conflicts, I would say. And essentially, fill up the fourth problem is that he wants to be able to collect taxes on members of the church.

“And in particular, he wants to collect taxes on members of the church because he's fighting”

with England. Right. Right, I've heard you might have heard that the French and the English don't really get on in the 14th century. Not always.

No, no. No, no.

Yeah, we've got eight with the first in England at this point.

We've got the ongoing wars in Scotland. The Scottish wars of independence happening. Like I said, there were just some big personalities around that were all butting heads and clashing at this point. And the Pope is desperately trying to elbow his way into the room and say, don't forget

about me, guys. Mm-hmm. And so in the first place, he's coming in and saying, oh, well, I should be the orbit of all this. I should be the one that you ask.

“Yeah, oh, Scotland, you should be talking to me, the Pope, Sicily, talk to me, the”

Pope. And he's certainly going to tell Philip, you know, I'm sorry you can't tax the clergy. To be fair to Philip, you can understand why. Just in the church is incredibly wealthy at this point in time. They have been tithing rather a lot.

We have strayed so far from what St. Francis was attempting to do in the 13th century already, already. Right? And so if you're trying to raise quick cash, it makes sense to try to tax the clergy. But you can also understand why the church wouldn't be particularly down with that.

Right? Yeah. Whether the church is still desperate in Boniface, is still desperately trying to position themselves as superior to kings. It's like, hang on, you can't have attacks, money, if anything, maybe we should have

some of yours. Exactly. And this all ends up coming to head in 1301, and Boniface issues a people bull that is called Salvatore Mundi. This is also a time when there's just a lot of big name papal bulls, like there's a lot

of barn stores in here, because Salvatore Mundi says, very particularly like, okay, well, that is it. We are revoking the former privileges that the French crown had, because the French crown had some little privileges in particular, they were allowed to choose, for example, their bishops and archbishops.

You know, it was like one of these things where in order to get around the investiture controversy, the papacy had said, okay, yeah, usually I get to pick the bishop, but I'm saying that you get to. And so then everyone's happy, right? And so that was off the table.

And in particular, great quote in this one, where he says that quote, God has placed us over the kings and kingdoms, so he says this, right? So the pope is more important than kings and kingdoms.

and he's saying it to fill it the fourth of France of all people.

Oh, it's so powerful and so wealthy.

And like, it's just, it's crazy. Like, this is crazy work. Actually, you're not supposed to go out there and say it, you're supposed to sort of hint at it, right? Like, that's, that's the thing.

So this is not going over very well with Philip and Philip gets summoned to Rome.

“And he's like, do you think I'm going to Rome right now, dog?”

You do not, you do not call me as though I am your puppy, right? Like, I'm the king of France, right? So 1302, bottom fist comes out with a new papal bull. This is a huge one, unum sanctum. And in it, he specifically, once again, declares papal sanctity and papal universality.

The other barn stormer, we're quote, "It is necessary to salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman pontiff."

I mean, oof, I mean, as they go, that's like you're not getting into heaven unless you

have met on the bus. You know, you can't be saved unless you explicitly confirm that I'm in charge of the king of France. And like, I can't stress how much this is not normal. Like, this is not, this is not normal stuff, right?

Because he's having to say this because nobody really thought that previously. The thing is, if he's having to say it, an issue of papal bull saying it, it means nobody believes it. Nobody's buying what he's saying. Two bulls in two years saying, "I really, really am the bus guys."

And that is just, so Philip loses it, right? And Philip writes back and says, "Let thy foolishness know that in temporal things, we are subject to no man." And this is interesting, right? Because he's saying, "I'm sorry, but the Pope's just a guy."

Right? So saying, "We are subject to no man. It's reaffirming his status as a human." Right? In terms of temporal things.

It's an interesting tactic, isn't it? I mean, he's calling the Pope your foolishness, essentially, rather than, you're holding a certain guy. Let's just go with your foolishness. You know that the Cardinals were all like, "Oh, that's sick, but he's very carefully

not denying this supremacy of God or of the church or of anything like that." He's saying, "I don't have to bow much like the hobbits. I don't have to bow to any man." Right? That's right.

That's right. That's the man. He's not God. I admit that God's up there. I simply don't see the Pope in between me and him.

And you know what, I think that this is actually pretty carefully worded, you know, because

“he does say in secular things, in secular things, just like, "Yeah, but if you want to talk”

about the Lenton fast, we can talk about that." But if you want to tell me how to rule my kingdom, I don't understand what that has to do with you. Fair enough. Fair enough, right?

But as I'm sure you guess that, you can't just have a sick burn, like calling the Pope if I foolishness and think that nothing is going to happen. And so in 1303, Boniface, Excommunicates Philip, which is another big, I mean, this is just ramping it up and ramping it up and ramping it up at every turn. A hundred percent, it's like the temperature is up now and now, like, graded, people do

be getting excommunicated. You know, personal, fave, Emperor Frederick II gets excommunicated twice, you know, he's so likely. It was almost like when he was an excommunicate to do so, I can't want to do that again. You got to, it was like, "Why, why, I guess I haven't been naughty enough," right?

It's good stuff. So, but Philip is not particularly happy about this in particular because he then threatens to put all of France under-introduct, which means you are also kind of excommunicated until you get rid of this guy, essentially. It's sort of like putting a target on someone's back, it's the equivalent of, like, in

“John Wick, when, like, they send all of the assassins after him, right?”

The bounty is up. Exactly. Exactly. And it's also, this is what the Pope had done to King John in England a hundred years earlier.

So, Philip has a direct parallel there, you know, this was the green light for the dophan of France, Louis, to invade England and try and depose John, and this is essentially what the Pope has now done to fill it the fourth. He surely can't let that stem. And he does not to be fair, so he would have been a boring story.

I don't. Okay, so this sets up what a by-favorite thing said it's ever happened in medieval history, which Philip then sends troops to a rest boniface, of course. It works. It works.

Which is just absolutely incredible, and it leads to a great term alert that what we call

just really be boniface up.

It's a beat down for the ages, and he dies about a month later as a result of just getting worked over. Which is sad, but I was imagining kind of WWE entrance music for all of these people coming in with Robin Ches from the audience to smack the Pope with. My god, that's the French soldier's music, et cetera.

So like they're getting the loot in beep, beep, beep, and that, you know, this is a whole situation, right? We have a new boniface that comes in after this, boniface the ninth. He's only Pope for a route about a year, and he is just trying to take the temperature down.

Listen, listen, listen, listen, ignore previous boniface.

We are going to re-communicate Philip.

We are excommunicating the guys who killed boniface the eighth, which fair enough, like, yeah, that's in the front. It's going to be a bit of comeback, surely. Yeah, absolutely. And he's just like, listen, what we need to do is cool things down.

Like, everything is too hot, we need to re-establish some level of normality. But then as I say, he dies. So he's elected in a July and he dies the following October. Then we have a new papal contemplative.

“And during said contemplative, now listen, is some pressure applied to this call, five Philip?”

That's point to yes, yes, yes, okay. And this is one of those conclosers that is just going on and on, like, people really cannot agree on what to do. But eventually, we didn't want to make a decision, because there was no decision here that was going to satisfy everybody.

You were going to make an enemy whoever you decide, so it's almost like they go in every day thinking. So we just pretend we're talking about it, and we'll say we can't decide in the day. Exactly. And then you're just like, oh, whoa, there's just so many qualified candidates.

I don't know what to do, because it's a real damned if you do damned if you do, because on the one hand, the French king who is arguably outside of the Holy Roman Emperor, the

most powerful guy in medieval Europe, is going to be really mad at you.

On the other hand, the Romans are going to be really mad at you. If you don't elect someone who is going to uphold what they want, because there's a lot of behind the scenes, it's halian, beef going on, which that's a Chicago reference.

“But that's why it's like, so listen, eventually we do get a Pope out of this.”

It's climate the fifth. And he is the archbishop of Bordeaux, which kind of tells you warning clacks in, big French naïve there. Yep. Yep. So here we go.

We've got a French pope. And what Clement does next is he just says, yeah, that's cool. I'm not moving to Rome. Oof. I like the job, but I don't like the, the office location.

Exactly. Exactly. He's like, listen, we're doing, we're doing some work from home, which is actually, no, he doesn't say that. He says that we're, we're gonna, we're going to move to Avenue.

And the papacy did hold this whole beef dump around Avenue, it was their lands already. They were drawing considerable income from it. And so he's like, look, we're, we're moving down there.

“That's, that's what's going to happen instead.”

And you know, to be fair, part of the reason he says that is, you know, it's not just the Gwellson Gibblings kicking off in Rome at this point, but we also have a lot of friction between the two big Roman noble families, the Orcini's and the Colona's. And who, who were used to providing Pope, so they're also going to be able to kick in the stomach that they, the one of them isn't providing a Pope this time.

Exactly. Like that's part of what the contingent was dragging their feet about when they elect climate the fifth because they're like, am I going to face retribution from the Colona's or the Orcini's about this and I think that this is a really important point because people just sort of forget about it when they say, oh, wow, it's crazy how much pressure

the French king was putting on the papacy. I'm like, babe, that's nothing new. Like it's aliens are constantly putting pressure on the papacy and we have these two noble families who are constantly infiding.

as a Roman senator, right?

So like the, and he's like making rules about who can and can't be involved in the Roman Senate. And it's like, look, the politics has been there at the whole time. It's just that we're used to forgiving Romans for doing it. So when French people do it, everyone's like, hey, wait a minute, and I guess we ought

to clear it. So having said, begun this by saying what's wrong with Rome, I guess the next question

“is what's right with Avignon, because I think there is a perception that moving to Avignon”

is moving to France. But as you've already said, this is a papal fiefdom already. But I think there is this perception that that move to Avignon was very firmly a move into the lands and into the sphere of influence of the king of France. And I think that this is, this is one of these things that is really kind of a modern way

of looking at things, because France is it exists now, like this whole idea of Frenchness

is not always happening at the time, right?

Avignon is very firmly in Ocitania, and it is, they've got a different language. They don't speak French, you know, they speak Ocitan. And they are very much abutting arrows, which is not France, at the time, Arles has a part of the Holy Roman Empire, right? Like, let's just be so for real about that.

“And they already owned this land, like this is their land, right?”

So this is not really where the French sphere of influence is, the French sphere of influence is north. We talk about this all the time when we talk about El Norbacote, for example, where we're

looking, they just do things differently in Ocitania, even more so in South Eastern France,

like this is a part of the world, which does not consider itself to be France. And when we say that it is now, that's just a modernism that's kind of leaking into the back. You know, it's an anachronism, that's not something that they would have said at the time. Yeah.

So we need to be aware that the move to Avignon is about moving to a different place that the papacy still owns, it's not Rome, but it's, it's papalans still. It's actually more connected to the Holy Roman Empire than it is to France at the moment. So although they, they look like they're moving to a modern sensibility to a modern geography, it looks like they're moving into this sphere of influence of the King of France.

They're not really at this point. No, no. I mean, and down to the fact that if you go to Avignon now, which is should, like the strong recommendation for me, you know, one of the big things that ends up happening is the French King ends up building a huge castle across the river from an avenue because he's like,

oh, I don't know about you, because that there is still this this tension between people and royal power at the time. It isn't just a completely sewn-up duned deal. It's much more complex than that, really. Yeah.

But it must have felt like a moment, though, for the bishop of Rome not to live in Rome anymore. I mean, like to be fair that as wild, like, I'm not saying that it isn't weird, but also

“let us consider that the Roman Empire for quite some time was run out of Revena, right?”

Before we even get to the medieval period. So this concept of Romanness, the trouble with projecting that as a reason to justify what it is that you're doing is that cuts both ways, right? So if Rome is universal, if the power of the bishop of Rome is indeed universal, well, then maybe you can do that from anywhere, right?

You don't have to do it in the city that's currently undergoing civil war, right? There's no there's no reason that the Pope has to necessarily do that if his power truly is universal. Yeah. Hoist by the Rhyme Petod.

Real intellectual issue that they've got themselves into it, right? No, no, no, for such a thing. So even though they're not in French territory, they're not in land that belongs to Philip Fourth. It kind of feels to me at least, very much like Philip is the winner in this.

to be real with you.

I just gave you reasons why it's not that bad.

Listen, Clement the Fifth, he does do some things that are kind of very clearly at the least he has to fill up the four. And you can imagine everyone in Rome going, this is what we meant, this is why we don't one French one. Yeah, I mean, primary among these things is he is the guy who condemns one of everybody's

favorite groups of people the night's Templar.

“Oopsie, which is very much doing Philip's work, isn't it?”

I mean, let's just be clear, it's Philip that once ridden the Templar. Yeah, this is not something that Clement really cares about. Philip wants ridden them, he sees an opportunity to get hold of a lot of ready cash, you know, again, one of the big themes of his, his rule is king, is that he doesn't have enough money to accomplish what he wants to do militarily.

And he's looking at what is essentially an order of bankers at this point in time and he's thinking, well, I would like to get hold of that. So when in 1314, so this is only five years after the Curia has moved to Abinyol, they actually condemned the Templars at the Council of Vene. Alongside Clement the fifth on stage, yeah, Philip is there and so is his son, who is

the king of Navar. Um, I mean, it couldn't be more clear what's going on. I mean, Philip is very clearly getting some very tangible rewards very quickly from this situation. Yeah.

“So, listen, I think that people are too quick to make this entire situation really”

cut and dried. This is this is about French power, but then there are certain things where I'm like, yeah, dog, that's bad. I don't, I don't think that is good, you know, one of the big things that happens at Vene quite famously is that Clement says, no one can talk unless I say you can

hand, so the Knights Templar aren't able to defend themselves at all and then basically

Philip takes all of their stuff. Now having said this, Philip's not the only ruler who benefits from that quite famously, the English king is very happy to jump in on that as well, which is how the temple goes into the Crown's hands here in London, right? So it's just that Philip was there, this is a direct request from Philip, let's be so

for real about it right now, you know? Yeah, because it just feels like Edward II in England is very much dragging his heels around the temple. It's not something he's interested in, it's not something he basically wants, I don't think he agrees with Philip, but he's also feeling the pressure from Philip and now from

the Pope as well and everybody's saying the Templar is a really, really bad, and it kind of makes you look bad if you don't go along with that. Like, I mean, there's a pretty big propaganda war happening. He's trying to sort of justify himself and what it is he's doing. So if everyone is really saying, yeah, that the Templars are a problem, you know, cracking

down on them is kind of a way of proving your bonifides as it were, like saying, oh, yeah, well, I am a reformer though, like this is all in the name of reform, because the Knights Templar have a ton of money and a lot of influence, you know, we are quite soft towards them now because yeah, things got a little bit crazy, but they're not exactly like it's someone to look up to in terms of what it is they're doing at the time.

They're just bankers, that's all that is happening right now. Like, I wouldn't feel too worried about it personally. Yeah. Yeah.

“And I guess then we have this period in which we get successive French popes, which I think”

we have to allow ourselves to see the influence of the French king in there. For all of a sudden, it's just bright with what had previously been an almost exclusively Roman club is now becoming an almost exclusively French club. So how many popes are there? And are they all French and are they are they good popes, are they bad popes or are they

a little bit of both popes? So we have seven Avignon Popes. There are war, but those are antipopes and listen, babe, we do not have time to do the Western Schism today, that's that's in episode for a later date.

Luis, I'm just going to say that the term antipope always makes me laugh.

I don't know what it is about it, but the idea of an antipope just makes you laugh. No, I just I love it. I'm like another Pope for your troubles. My favorite is one, there's three popes, but I get a later date, a later date, okay. So they're all French, yes, they're all French of varying degrees.

favorite Pope of all time is one of them.

So you get climate the fifth, you know, moves, moves the period of Avignon, you can feel how you want to feel about that, condense the teplars, that's bad. He does some things I like, like at a point in time he tries to make an alignment with

“the Mongols to fight against the Muslims, and I think that's fun.”

I think it's like really cute where he's like, we're going to have a French Mongol alliance, and I'm like, oh, he's international, like, I was like, I dare the Mongols being like, what on earth would we need you for? So good. After him, we get John the 22nd.

I would argue, this is a bad guy, he will be one of several popes who is in conflict

with the Emperor Louie the Bavarian.

He didn't want to support Louie the Bavarian's election to be Holy Roman Emperor, because he sort of had, he only had five out of the seven votes. You had to have seven at the time, it's a whole thing. And, you know, that's one thing or another, Louie the Bavarian, he's a slippery character, and no one really likes him in the papacy.

“But he also beefs with a group of guys who I think are cool who are the spiritual”

Franciscans. And the spiritual Franciscans are a group of Franciscans who are like, hey, guys, remember when everyone said we were going to do apostolic poverty, yeah, like, remember how we were supposed to like, beg. And now we're really rich, maybe we should stop doing that.

John the 22nd hates this, and he really cracks down on the spiritual Franciscans and he declares them heretics, which is sad, because I think that they were a good group of guys.

I might my heart is always with reformers, so we don't like John the 22nd very much.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Bye, Guy. Yeah.

And I wonder, as we go through these popes, kind of, what is this doing for the idea of the papacy trying to position itself above secular authorities? Because it sounds a little bit like, you know, I mean, getting dragged into the politics of the empire is one thing. The papacy has always kind of had its feet in there.

But are they getting dragged into French politics? Are they getting dragged into more wide secular politics in Western Europe? And are they doing that kind of as, are there any stage of puppet of the French king at this point? Are they losing that idea that they stand above secular rulers because they're becoming

so influenced by the French king? Really depends on the pope is the answer to that because people like the clements, I would say both the clements, clements to the fifth and clements to the sixth are really, really involved in court politics and then others much less so, right? Like John the 22nd, what of his deals with his conflict with Louis the paparies?

“I think he's kind of trying to prove that secular rulers don't tell him what to do, right?”

You know, he can kind of do varying things. You know, he's follow up who is a Benedict the 12th, he's a really big reformer, right? Like one of the things that he's expressly trying to do is show that he's not like other poops, right? He's not like clement the fifth, he's not like John the 22nd who condemns spiritual

French's cousin is trying to meddle in politics, he is expressly like, hey guys, actually we have too much money there, we've got real big problems with Simonine and people buying office, the church has too much money, let's let's get back to brass tax, right? And so he's actually pretty well liked by very people, not the king of France, right? Like he does not, they don't really get on with Benedict the 12th, which is how you end up

with Clement the 6th, who's a guy I'm really interested in. Clement the 6th comes in in 1342 and he is drawn from the court of King Charles. I mean, if we're just giving up any pretense here, you know, we're just going to now get a French court here to be poked. Uh, I'd like, listen, this is such a tricky one, right, because I'm so I'm really interested

in in Clement because he was the tutor of my favorite Emperor, the Emperor Charles IV, right? And Emperor Charles IV grows up at the French court even though he's check just because his mom tried to revolt against his dad, what, like, you know, check girls aren't allowed to have any fun ever. Uh, but so that's why he's called Charles as he names himself after his uncle and, and Clement

probably, it's like, probably it's a fake quote or it's like a someday, because Clement says,

“oh, you're going to be Emperor some day Charles and Charles says, oh, not before you're going to be”

Pope, eh, Russell, you know, but you cannot say that, Clement the 6th, is it like an excessive Pope, like he is spending money on art. He is really putting a lot of money into the paper palace that is being built in the Abbeyneah. Um, he is at court, constantly. Nah, no one is going to have a plan for such a thing. Visit the Royal Kitchener's Life in Freiburg with your mother and her children, who are all the same,

who are all the young. It's our interactive exhibition by the elite tour with audio guide and a classic and the next Parve Young, the whole world of Royal Kitchener's Life in the Royal Kitchener's Life, only one of the sickling and found. But I mean, he's going with the reform as surely, you know, he's interested in making himself

poor, he's going to spend all of his money on building palaces and buying artworks so we can be poor again. Yeah, and he does a great job on that, you know. Um, and you know, he is super involved in politics

because like the reason Charles the 4th gets elected at the emperor in the first place. I mean,

Louis the Bavarian is still, is still the emperor and like the Charles is kind of like an anti emperor, if you will, and I will. Uh, but then Louis dies on a bear hunt and then everyone goes ask for it, but we'll just go with Charles. That's fine. Um, but then the other thing that happens at the spirit is that this is one to black death kicks off. And so Clement is very much on the

“throne for that and when people are like, hey, I think that maybe the black does his happening because”

see that palest you're living in and he's like, I don't know what you're talking about, right? What

positive? Yeah, I do, who? What? Uh, so he's he's not, um, I would say a particularly popular

pope, Europe white, um, yeah, we could say that, we could certainly say that about Clement, but then he's successor, who is innocent, the sixth. He's pretty cool. Like he's a pretty cool guy. And he's like, oh, it looks like we are bankrupt. Yeah, he's like making avert to a necessity. He's like, oh, um, no, because like I really believe in reform, and like he's he's selling the art that Clement bought. Um, he is like saying guys, like the, I'm serious. The black death keeps happening.

We've really got a refocus on God. Um, he spends a lot of time trying to intercede with more that is happening in Italy. Like he, he, he's a pretty good dude. Um, he's, he's kind of saying everybody like stop fighting each other. We've got to play on and there are bigger fish to fry. So he's a pretty good guy. We, we like, we like him. Like innocent, the sixth is a good guy. It's a conversational buzz kill. Oh, isn't it? What we don't want there is a perfectly competent

man who is dealing with the issues of the day. Right. And that's the thing. Right. It's, it's so easy to say, oh, the Avenue papacy. It's this terrible political thing. But there are, there are people in there and we're genuinely trying to do their best in very difficult circumstances. And really, like,

“well, the black death has broken out here. You're going to tell anyone, I'm sorry you need to go back”

to Rome. Like, babe, half of everyone there is dead. Like, we can't even get the baggage trained sorted out. Right. Like, there's not enough people to be marching around. So like, no. It turns out there's a good idea to leave Rome, right? No, no, right. We did 40 years early as well, you know, but a forethought. We just, we just saw a comment. Yeah. That's what's going on. Yeah. This period as well. Um, it's been referred to as the Babylonian captivity. The idea that the

purpose and prisoner in France and also that that it's becoming increasingly, kind of one turn and concerned with worldly things, as you mentioned there, buying artwork, building palaces and all of that kind of thing. And I think that quite might have come from someone like petrogue. But it does seem to reflect a kind of a growing dissatisfaction with a ecclesiastical wealth. We're moving

will really, really intensify. Is it a fair charge to lay at the Avignon Papacy? Because we're

just talked about spending lots of money on art and building palaces. Are they, are they becoming more avaricious? Is this a more splendid court and you might have seen in Rome? It certainly is.

“A more splendid court. And listen, if you want to talk about Clement VI, I will give it to you”

all day long. The man's avaricious, he is ostentatious. It's often said that at this point in time, the cardinals are living much nicer lives than they ever had before. And you know, this idea that they are the princes of the church really takes off at this point. And listen, they're drinking shetto newf to pap every day, babe. Like they're live in the life. And so, under Clement, you know, in the 1340s to early 1350s, like that is absolutely true. But I do think

the last three Avignon Popes, they are not doing that at all. You know, you've got love the little innocent the sex. And then you've got Urban the Fifth, who's arguably my favorite Pope. Yeah, yeah, I just love Urban. I just think he's great, because you can really see in all of his correspondence him grappling with the various pressures that he is receiving both from the French side. And he's in constant contact with Charles IV. So, obviously,

like, this is why I know my boy, right? And my reform preacher that I work on all the time, Yamilich of Grammargey is writing to him all the time, because he's like, you get it, you get it. You understand what I mean. You and I, baby, we're going to take on the world. We're going to reform the church and Urban the Fifth really tries. He tries to move back to Rome, right? He gives it a go. And he goes in 1367, back to Rome. And he's like, okay, look, let it, oh, we're going to try.

But Rome at the time, again, is experiencing civil war. This is the time around when we have the Tribune Colidie Rienzo. This is when Petrarch is writing. So, we have a lot of, you know, there's a lot of people talking trash about Avignon. Well, that's because Petrarch is trying to argue that Rome should be the center of the world. Again, and it's like, honey, it's been like 800 years, you might want to go, you know. And like, it's in tatters. Like, there's a major, major

civil war going on. And Urban the Fifth tries so hard to move the papacy back. And ultimately,

he can't do it. He can't make it stick. So in 1370, he goes back to Avignon and dies. And so there you see this real willingness to do the best that you can. But the circumstances in

“Rome are simply too violent. And I think that gets swept under the rug a lot. And now listen,”

my preacher would tell you, millage would tell you. He would say, okay, yeah, like Rome is violent, but you're the Pope who cares. Like, I don't care whether or not your personal safety is threatened. But that's super easy to say what it's not your personal safety. Right. It's, it's, yeah. Yeah. So I guess as we're coming towards the end of the Avignon papacy, should we think about the Avignon papacy is being appeared that has changed the papacy has been out of Rome

made a significant change to the Pope, the papacy, the way that, I was going to say the way that Rome sees itself, but they're obviously not in Rome, the way they've been in the season itself. Or is there an extent to which this is a lot of Rome, Petra, people like that. Rome is

“throwing mud at Avignon because they want the Pope back. I mean, I think that you are actually”

right. I think it has made a change to how Rome sees itself because Rome is undergoing an existential crisis as a result of this fundamentally. And it's one that we've sided with because we like Rome and history, and that's, it's just like a modern thing. We're like, well, yeah, obviously,

we, everybody should always like Rome. But I think it also does obviously make a huge difference

to everyone in Avignon because they're like, yes, sorry, buddy, my entire livelihood depends on building this balance now. You know, I import things specifically for these guys. But it is very much considered to be a time of soul searching, to an extent. You know, like, these last seven Yoni's, Pope's really, I think they're quite good because I think that they are aware of how mad everyone is about this. And so they're, they're kind of trying to say, like, yes, I hear you,

saying and also not wanting to go to a city. That's on fire, right? It's like the last proper Avignon

Yoni's, Pope, Gregor, the 11th. He's trying really hard to do political things that are good, right? Like he's trying to stop the hundred years war. His whole thing is that he's trying to intercede with Christians who are fighting each other. And I have to say that's an unambiguous good, right? That is certainly a good thing to attempt to do. But there are some facts about what happened. So during the Avignon Yoni's papacy um, tides across the church are increased by about 10%.

And this is because they have taxes erupt, nobody's happy. No one's happy. And they're using it to build a new papal palace. This is interesting because it's kind of like a precursor to what happens when Martin Luther kicks off, right? Because when the whole selling indulges us things happen, that's to pay for the Sistine Chapel, right? So like whenever the papacy decides that it wants to redecorate or marry people pay for that. And that's not good, right? I don't think that is good.

Truly the cardinals are living it up. Say what you want about the post, but like the cardinals

“are they're living that life style for it in time. And also I think that we do have to be very”

hypocritical about what goes on with the tumblers in 1314. I think that that that is pretty pretty bad. We wish it certainly say this. And we do see these massive reactions on the part of ordinary people. So you know you have the spiritual of Franciscans, the Fradicelli, who are a group who rises up against this. There's also in the Italian lands, the Waldenzines, who don't care for this. And they make a little heresy about that. The Lawards, you're in England to have rather a lot to say

about the state of affairs. And this is also going to be one of the things that the horseites really latch on to later as well. So it opens the church up to a lot of criticisms. Very specifically because yes, is there personal safety threatened? Yeah. But if you are truly universal also, yeah, okay, you could be an avid y'all. But if really what it is is about doing God's bidding, then who cares that you know your lifestyle is someone threatened by the

“war outside is kind of the idea. You should like in theory, be having your mind on greater things.”

And if you are doing the correct religious thing, then why do you care if Rome is burning outside

your window, get out there and do your job, right? It hardly be the first time Rome is going to

protect you with old people. Yeah. And so like if you look at earlier justifications for why the Bishop of Rome is important, it all hinges on being in Rome and proximity to the saints that are buried there and things of the nature. So you know, but then again, Rome's a large tent, okay, like the idea of Rome is bigger than the city itself. But I just think that it's incredibly important for us when we talk about the avenue of papacy to understand how complex all of these ideas are at the

time. Yeah. Yeah. And just to bring it to an end then, we've seen a Pope try, we've seen a couple of folks try to go back to Rome and find it really, really difficult. How do they end up bringing this period to a close? How does the Pope end up back in Rome? Well, the Pope ends up back in Rome because everybody wants the Pope to be back in Rome at this point in time. So like really, really Gregory the 11th, he does it. He returns. So he takes the papacy back, he returns on the 13th of September

1376 and he is then in Rome for two years until his death. And after he dies, there is a lot of pressure to elect a new Roman Pope. They elect not a Roman Pope, but a Napoliton Pope, which is kind of

seen as good enough, but the French Cardinals say that they were basically threatened into it.

“And that's how you get the Western schism. But the point is that these last Pope's, these last”

Pope's, Pope are in the fifth. Pope Gregory the 11th, they were trying, they were trying super hard to

that they were unable to do it. And I just think it's not fair to look at Clement the fifth to

“look at Clement the sixth and tarnish all these guys with the same brush because some of them”

are actually super religious and really interesting. Yeah. And it's also, it strikes me as odd that the reason we're talking about this today, obviously we're not going to get into contemporary politics. But the reason we're talking about this is because the idea of the avenue on papacy

has somehow sprouted up as a threat, but it doesn't feel to me like anything that you've just

described is something that you could use as a threat. The papacy moved to different paper lands and carried on its business. Exactly. And yes, there are a couple of poops that are certainly intertwined with the French court, but not most of them. Most of them are actually trying to do the right thing in really difficult circumstances and pretty much the reason that the papacy moves

isn't because of this political entanglement necessarily. It's also because of the political

instability that was happening in Rome at the time. And any analysis that overlooks those very real dangers is juvenile, I best. I would say, yeah, yeah. It feels a little bit like maybe the Western schism is the threat rather than the the avenue on papacy itself being a threat. Yeah, but maybe that's a story for another day. Absolutely. Listen, I would love to get into the

“Western schism at another point in time, but it's very important to note that the avenue on”

ease papacy and the Western schism are two different things. Do you have a pope in avenue on after that? Sure, but there's seven of them who are legitimate poops and no one argues that they aren't. Yeah, and then we get back to antipopes, my favorite one. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for allowing me out to the dungeon to come and and invade your your episode earlier in the week. It's been fascinating for me to get my head around the avenue on papacy a little bit more and

maybe to understand why it's been appearing in the news and perhaps why it's not been appearing in the right way in the news. You'll listen, I am so glad that there was someone to come and listen to me yell about this thing that I love so go very much. Thank you, Bad. Thank you very much. Thank you so much to Matt once again for joining me from his dungeon, and thank you for listening to go on the evil from history hit. If you were interested in some of the topics we mentioned

at this episode, you might want to go back and check out our past episodes on the Investiture

“Contest and the Knights Templar. Remember, you can enjoy unlimited access to award-winning”

original TV documentaries, including my recent documentary on the trials of Joan of Arc. And, add free podcasts by signing up at history hit.com/subscription. You can follow Gommedyville on Spotify, where you can leave us comments and suggestions or wherever you get your podcasts. Until all your friends and family that you've, Gommedyville. Until next time. [Music]

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