How a 15% Price Cut Sent a Ridge Product’s Revenue Up 60%

We are talking about how to maximize revenue per session on your site.

Connor shares what they do at red.

“He's been spending a lot of time on building bundles and shares a lot of the tactics that they've been doing.”

And then we are joined from Verun, Kundra from AFTER cell to show us all about post purchase upsells, in checkout upsells, all the work that they're doing, all the noise they've been making on X, plus stay till the very end. Verun and Connor screen share. They show the wing site and they rip it apart. You're not going to want to miss that one.

Right now, I'm about to hop into Claude and Codex to make a lot of changes that they recommend because they have some really good ideas. So stay tuned, check it out. You're not going to want to miss this one. Alright, what's up man, it was good seeing you in person. I think it was last week coming.

We were out in Montana, Boseman, Montana for the post-cript event. And now we're back online, just me and Connor with Arnold today. What's going on? I, you know, spent so long in Salt Lake. I've got a special place in my hope for the mountain west.

It's always good to get out there.

Let's start with us. Do you have any brands that you love to look at? That you're just like, "Hey, I love to see what they're doing on site from like a upsell bundle offer perspective." Yeah, 100%. I mean, a lot of these are brands that are often talked about.

You think about a groans. You know, Zach Stuck, Marsmen, Hollow Sox is, Hollow Sox is fantastic. Zach is like best in the business. I think it like teeing up bundles. The other one that I always bring up is nectar mattress.

They are fantastic. And that's, it's not so much bundling. They actually have a really strategic way to like get these, um, they have like complimentary items that they'll at times auto attach. It times not auto attach.

“And it's like, I think it's like a $200 cost.”

And they just do an extremely good integrated seamless design of like getting people in and out of that. I look at there from like a UI UX perspective there, just like fantastic. Um, those have been a few that are top of mind. I want to get into bundling in a little bit and I have an example from a wave wear. So I won't go too deep on them now.

Share my screen later. But yeah, who are, what are the some of the brands that you're looking at? Obviously, I have been heavily looking into, you know, subscription offers, PDPs, things like that. Um, lately. So obviously, you have, yeah, you have your groans.

You have your stuff like that. You know, as you once is clean.

Um, I am a is obviously incredible for what they're doing with like pushing the 90 day.

Um, you know, primal clean is like scaling fast looking at that. So, so yeah, those are a lot of the talk about ones. Let me see who's like not. Like I love Sean's video the other day on on like a lot of like the, you know, Here's brands that are doing well that are not the eye maintenance.

Like he mentioned, um, sun powder. They have a pretty cool. Yeah, so they're, they're doing a similar thing with like the 90 day. You know, really good offer de incentivizing the one time. That's one of the reasons I made is able to scale so fast.

A they have, you know, the AOV, they have like super high AOV.

“And I think they're pushing that up quarter over quarter.”

But also just for the cash conversions cycle and for the ability to, you know, sell them to a 90 day is really cool. Um, and then, and then we'll talk about post purchase ups also as well. Because there's some really cool stuff like people are doing with subscription. Bundles upgrades.

But when we talk about like quote unquote, How do we extract as much revenue per session? There's like two ways of doing it. Um, this kind of goes back to price testing, which we've talked about often over the course of the last two years. Um, but there's two ways to do it.

You want to be driving up average order value faster than your decreasing conversion rate. And that can happen from bundling and that can happen from just increasing prices. Uh, but this idea that those are the two toggles that you have. The value per order and the rate at which someone creates one of those orders. And then the inverse is true where it's like you can actually be lowering prices and increasing revenue per session.

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Go to runath.com and book a strategy session. Mention marketing operator sent you and you'll get a thousand dollars and free credits. And the two examples I bring up all the time are, well, let's put it on the high end. Um, you could be increasing prices without decreasing conversion rate. This could be as simple as like adding relevant bundles, and maybe we could segue into that after this.

Um, we're all of a sudden, if you were just thoughtfully and intuitively teeing up the complimentary products, potentially the exact same amount of people will convert just some amounts of them are converting at a higher order value. So boom, that's like easy revenue procession extraction.

uh, you can drop prices 15% like we did with pens.

And because we landed as spot the consumers are far more willing to pay revenue increase on pen 60%. So just to like, really agnosticly as we go through some of these, um, different tactics and ideas. Like those are the two things that you're trying to balance driving up order, driving up or down order value. And it having a, you know, beneficial or negative impact on conversion rate and just making sure that's penciling to an increase in revenue procession.

“Yeah, no agree with that. And where do you stand? Are you like an AOV Max must where like you think like that should be like primary focus?”

Are you like you try to balance both because like I think when in doubt, like anything you can do to drive up the AOV is usually a good thing. Fantastic question. I felt multiple ways about this over the last few years.

One of the things that we did early on at Ridge were we were basically like order value Max Mullis.

We went from having, I think when I started the base wall, it was like $75 where $95 now, um, carbon fiber, we moved up to 150 like for the first year I was at Ridge. We like slowly tested into just higher prices and we saw the increase in value outpace any sort of decrease in conversion rate. Um, so for a long time, I was like a price maximalist where you could just increase prices and that would be better. Um, the two things that I'll say here quickly, they're I've seen many examples from Ridge of us increasing prices too aggressively.

It having a net negative impact on revenue possession in the short term. And then we'll, we'll say theoretically that being at these higher prices will allow us to do larger discount certain promotional periods and that net net we might be able to drive more volume.

“I think that's an extremely like tricky line to walk because as soon as you're really increasing prices at the expense of your ability to acquire customer short term, I think it's easy to forget the effective deficit that you're building.”

Waiting for that promotional period where you can scale and then you also run into this issue where. If you have any sort of commodity product like, you know, it could be anything for us. Um, but if it's wedding bands, if we over increase our prices on wedding bands so that we could run larger percent off promos, you know, three or four times a year. Um, it's not as if someone's waiting around waiting for that promo, they need a wedding band. We're just going to lose that that consumer to another brand.

If you're in a competitive category that way. Um, so I think that's one example of like you can very quickly increase prices too much at the expense of acquisition and it's really hard in my opinion to make it up with larger promo periods.

The second thing that I'll say is, um, and I'd be curious your perspective on this. We have other examples where we've tested prices.

And for example, let's say it's a wallet, we'll test it $150 and $95. We won't see that big of a difference in revenue per session. That the increase in, um, order, uh, the increase in price here is almost equivalent to the decrease in conversion rate. But in the scenario where it's $95, we're selling far more units. And my theory is that we will actually benefit over the long term at that lower price by being able to drive more signal to something like meta.

And I almost prefer being able to, it's not a cheap product. It's not as if we're selling it for $40 or $30, which I think you end up having the issue of needing to acquire too many customers at some point. But if it's the difference in 100 and 150, I'll almost take the 100 so that I can drive more volumes so that we have more signal. We have a larger term. And then we can almost figure out how to drive up order value elsewhere with things like bundles and upsells.

“Um, so I think there's this component to it where it's like, what are the prices that create enough signal for you to actually optimize for it on meta?”

And that that's like this very weird sort of like long tail effect that a lot of people will miss if you're just doing an AB test and intelligence. Our journey zones, I was, you know, AOV Maximus, like for years, we would only have ad spend on like two hero products and part of it. It's like we could create funnels around those and be at a hundred dollar AOV, right? There may be like a $40 product and then upsells and quiz funnel and all of that stuff. By the way, quiz funnels are great for increasing revenue procession because you can recommend upsells personalize as well.

So that is just like another, another real good. But so we did that and we just drove it up. We just drove it up and got to like $110 AOV last time. Really high. So we did value optimization. So we put like 60% of our account on that, which, which work. We did a lot of kids, which are bundles and stuff like that. Um, up like our free shipping threshold every time we tested was like very high. Like an average in our space was like $45. 80, we ours was 85, but we had the best profit procession while doing that, right?

Like and, you know, looking at shipping house. So we did a lot of these tests to really drive it up. And I think to me, it's like a growth versus profit thing. It looks great on like a profit procession and then intelligence like you're saying on a two week conversion lift test value optimization looks great.

And so I think it was kind of a little bit short-sighted versus you're saying like sometimes it's helpful to have lower, you know, lower price, more volume.

You're saying more signal meta, but also just like larger a tam. So we started getting a lot of, you know, feedback and just seeing like seven signal out like we overoptimized in that direction. Right? And we were very, very, you know, profitable at that, but, but if we were willing to take less margin per order, there's probably a lot more people that we could get to try us. So we did that and we, um, we lowered free shipping threshold from $85 to $55. It was a test it converted better. That net, you know, revenue per session was actually negative, right? Probably per session, right? Like it converted better, but we dropped AOV so much that and now we're paying, we're not collecting shipping revenue as much. So like we're making less per order.

We chose that as a positive because we thought it would enhance our potential tam, right? Like, like there's a lot of people that might not want to spend $100 on, you know, a new makeup brand, but are willing to spend $50. Or $60 or something like that. And then obviously you have the LTV components and more signal and stuff like that. So we did it. Well, what I'll say is we probably went too far and to be raising it volume high OV. And then I think we kind of lowered it too much. And so now I think we're trying to get, we were trying to get back to a good baseline, which was like, let's have funnels and offers for high OV that are in value.

Let's have some offers and funnels that are lower, right? And let's kind of have these offers for different segments of the market.

“And then let's just try to balance between them because that's what we went too high in too low and then trying to find that sweet spot is really important.”

I also agree, directionally, this is what you're describing and our experience at Ridge, we're early on, it was advantageous to go higher prices. I also think there's like a time component to this where I'm like, look, when it was 2020, 2021, everybody's getting free checks from the government, everybody's shopping online. It was like, there was just more disposable income to go around, it was a less competitive market and you could command higher prices more effectively at that point. So some of this is just like the general sort of progression of how a brand might offer prices to different consumers. I also think for our sort of cohort of brand, it might have been particularly a good time to do it.

But just this idea that like you start out early, you acquire the less price-sensitive customers and you sort of like extract value at the highest margin you can early on.

And then as you acquire your, you know, 5 million, 10 million customer, your prices should naturally go down. There's no difference in like Tesla, Tesla came out, it was like a premium vehicle.

Now they have like a great $30,000 base model and it's like, yeah, they had to sell more cars in order to do they had to decrease prices over time. They also get the benefits of scale where they could be dropping cogs and they have a more. That's a lower margin business than something like cosmetics or, you know, wedding bands.

“But just that general progression, I think is maybe a little underappreciated.”

I'm absolutely agree. I think that was the thought process. There are still times where I am, you know, AOV Maximus, like I have been. I've had this one like recurring mentor pass, you know, client and they have like a $16 cac on meta and probably like a, you know, 35, 40 dollar AOV. And I'm like, you guys are phenomenal advertisers. There's not a thing I could say to get you from a $16 CPA to like a $14. It's just like, that, like, this just, you know, 99%. How do we get you to actually be okay with the $25 cac of $30 cac?

Because then you can, you can just increase, you know, it's the whole Dan Kennedy, whoever can spend the most to acquire customer wins.

“So I think it also depends where you're at, right? If you're, you know, in a smaller percentile and you're, you know, 35 dollar AOV, like, yeah, you should really focus on getting that to a 50 to 75 dollar range.”

If you're, uh, red or John's red and you're at 120, like, you probably don't need to focus on getting to one segment. Like, I don't know that that's going to get. You're going to have diminishing returns and maybe even some negative returns on that. I couldn't agree more. You know, one interesting anecdote when we were launching gut culture. And I don't know if you've had this experience at Winks. Yep. I thought this was very enlightening. And I've seen more discussions around it on X and things like that.

Um, but we had two bundle prices. We had, uh, you know, a 29 dollar bundle and then we had like an 88 dollar bundle. And that was a 30 30 day subscription and a 90 day subscription. You brought it up earlier. We're seeing this a lot with IMA with primal queen. Um, these subscription businesses trying to capture more of that value immediately and then charge on a less frequent recurring basis. Um, and we 80 test of this in intelligence right from meta and the 90 day subscription did horribly like really bad. Just absolutely dead on arrival.

And what I thought was so interesting about that is like just how much price is related to how much price and offer is related to who met as targeting. That if you say, hey, meta for the last 45 days, I've been acquiring customers at this 30 day subscription price. And now I'm going to just surprise you and 50% of traffic is going to go to the 90 day like it can really sort of crush your conversion rate. Whereas if you launch it separately and you tell meta explicitly, I am trying to acquire someone at this 90 dollar average order value.

Um, that that is actually far more effective at that. And it's the same thing with the the brand that you just give the example for. They have a 16 dollar CPA at, you know, whatever 35 dollar average order value.

When they go to launch their second funnel or third funnel, it's actually not a matter of AB testing it against their current one.

It could very well be thought of as just being incremental to what they currently do and allowing meta to just capture people at different price points. Absolutely. Yeah. And same thing with the Jones Road example, we're like, we'd have multiple campaigns and it's the full funnel where like kids higher AOV is on value optimization.

“And then the other ones are on, you know, conversion optimization because we think that's the best way to get like the incremental.”

And then what I'll say on on the wing side, we haven't really we don't have enough traffic to run like AB test yet. We hopefully will soon. But we definitely did start with a 90 day offer on PDP and after like two days we scrap that because we really we just need more signal. Yeah. And and yet 100%. I also, again, I think that's under appreciated. I feel like I've had my I've been beaten the drum about this at Ridge where I'm like. We can say on paper really high prices really high dollar margin value is great for the business and you know, I've talked to finance people and they're like, well, look, if we increase if 50 dollars, like we have 50 dollars more to spend on cack.

It's like, it's completely removing consumer interest at that point where it's like, yeah, nobody wants to pay $450 for the luggage. I don't care if we have an additional $50 or cack to spend on it. We've just shrunk our tan like 80% or whatever. I'm exaggerating, but we often forget how all these things are just so interconnected. Before Q4 hits, the smartest e-commerce operators aren't just asking how do we spend more there asking how do we make every visitor more profitable. That is where after sell comes in.

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BFCM starts. We've been thinking a lot about bundling and I'd love your perspective on this and how you guys approach to Jones Road.

I've got basically three types of ways that we drive up order value currently.

The first one is the most effective and it's single silhouette bundles and this is where like Zack stuck is so strong with something like a hollow socks where if someone's in market for one pair of out pack of socks.

“The best thing that you can do is to get them sold into a second or even better a third pair.”

And these single silhouette bundles are just like simpler for people to work on. And here, let me pull up the example that I saw recently, is if you need to be mixing and matching colors. This is in my opinion, it's the easiest to get someone to attach a second or third item to because they're on the PDP, they're bought into the product. They understand what they're getting a second and third of. There's no additional education required. The difficulty of it is when you need to be adding multiple colors.

So if I go to Ridge now. Wheat. This is like kind of V1 of our bundler right now for the power bank. And you have the option between a single, a two pack and a three pack.

And as you click into each of these, you then have the ability to customize the second and third power bank that you're getting.

And we see 60% of revenue from bundles come from orders where people are mixing and matching products. And the reason we got here is when we originally launched, we had like three colors. It was like, okay, we could do three colors and then we launched like most of the variations you could get between a two pack and a three pack. But we're going to launch like a dozen power banks next year. And we're not going to be able to infinitely like pre bundle all of these.

So we need to make a great experience allowing someone to pick and choose the products that they're looking for. This is V1 of it, AB tested this. We saw both just a lift across the board, lift in conversion rate, lift in order value, one of it will have been maybe our most impactful sort of new feature.

“So you're saying for you guys, it's a net benefit to allow people to pick their shades is that right?”

It's a net benefit to and it doesn't hurt conversion rate.

Yeah, so so this is an example of a lot, well, we tested it.

What we had, what we tested ultimately was not the existence of bundles.

We didn't test the existence of bundles. Like if you think about the progression, you go from single power bank PDP. And then you say, okay, well, what happens at PDP if we offer two and three pack? I would bet the fact that we're offering value that we would not only see an increase in order value, but we would also see an increase in conversion rate. But that's just what we launched with because we're like, I actually think a lot of our e-cum strategy moving forward is just like, let's just do really thoughtful bundling on large ham products like power banks.

And if we just implement it really well on the e-cum side, like we're going to have an advantage against the anchors or, you know, the other competitors in the market. The Chinese knockoffs that are selling on Amazon, things like that. So that's kind of v1 for us. And then what we tested into was rather than going from pre prescribed bundles.

“Like, hey, if you want a three pack, you have to get these three colors.”

You move to this like loose bundler that allows you to just select the quantity that you want. And then the amount any combination of colors that you want. And I can go back over here. We don't have all that many right now. You're selecting between six. Got GT out, neon tiger, dark harbor, olive, black, orange.

So there's six here. There's no way we would have offered all the different variations of three packs that someone might want.

We have to give them the ability to basically build their own three pack.

And this is what we saw. So more bundles than we would have otherwise seen. And so we drove up order value. And we saw an increase in conversion rate. Not like super significant high single digit percentages. But on, you know, our power bank business that will be very impactful over time.

So I know here it's like a power bank where people can get three power banks, different colors or same. How does that strategy compare? Maybe it's a both thing for us as a either or how does this compare to the non single ones. It's getting like a power bank, plus a keychain, plus a pen. Like how do those bundles compare to those?

How do you think that? So like if we go over to wallets here, this is what I would call.

This is the second one is multi silhouette bundles.

It's how we talk about it. And you're going to have to ignore this double swatch. It's because my cash isn't cleared. This works if you're, if you're checking out the site for the first time. Um.

“Multi silhouette bundles, I think, are different because now all of a sudden someone said,”

All right, I'm on the PDP. I'm looking for a wallet. We want to sell them into another non wallet product. Uh, I think that is fundamentally different because there's additional product education needed for that. Um, everything about this PDP is selling a wallet. If anybody would be interested in making two or three packs of wallets and we would just do like something similar to the power bank example. We just walked through where I would just be pushing them into buying multiples.

That's much simpler to do. But we do for selling it to key case or we have options with the pen and the knife is like, We actually have these dedicated PDPs built out where we can have more imagery. We can have more information. You can have more product education because we're now trying to get another 30, 40, 50 dollars out of someone for a product that they are obviously less familiar with.

So this is like our approach to it now, which is, um, a little bit less. I don't want to say a little bit less intuitive. It's a little bit more disruptive. There's literally more PDPs to visit, but there's more imagery and there's more information. And I think that helps with conversion rate over time, um, just how we drive up adoption. Now, with this is the third kind of line item here in my like ways to bundle products is upsells, which.

The distinction between, uh, like a bundle like this and an upsell is like, you get a full PDP experience. We actually have this product built out in Shopify to sell the daily driver kit, the wallet plus the key case. Um, the upsells are just what are the ways that we can incentivize to purchase anything else. In this case, we have, you know, the map black tracker card here that you can just click here and add on. And you could also select it and make it orange.

Um, if we go over to the wallet here, we'll have the quick draw card holder. So all of a sudden, this is a way that you could be building up. You're driving up UPD units per transaction without having to do these like pre prescribed bundles or like additional Shopify products. This allows total flexibility, but also has to be sort of, at least from our perspective, a lighter touch form of getting these things added to card. You don't have the same ability to, you know, um, create perceived value or education.

I don't want to say it's table six, but like, you kind of need it like five years ago, like no one had like in checkhead upsells and like you just more more and more of the real state of ecome sites become upsells. And I don't know, maybe some of it is not purely incremental, but like again, it's just you kind of need it throughout. So you guys are doing a really thoughtful job of it.

“Would you say, so like no one needs or most people don't need multiple wallets, and that's why you're you're bundling it with other stuff versus like power bank.”

There's more of an appetite and demand for the other thing that I'll say because we've talked about this quite often. We've talked about this quite often is like whether we get to chew, we get to choose to some degree, like what is the most advantageous for us to do.

And let's do upsells and let's do all these other things and it's like ultimately you almost have to think about it from like a share of voice perspective like the consumer only has so much attention.

“There's only so many pixels on the screen you have to choose your priority and depending on the type of product in the way consumers buy it, like that will lead you down certain paths.”

So we will naturally see track records are an example of we launched as a single silhouette. We didn't do anything to drive two packs or three packs. We naturally saw people purchase two or three packs and then we're just leaning into that behavior further by building things like the bundler. And now that we're launching new colors of track records, we're leaning further into like the flexible bundle building. So I think that's a big component of this year.

It's just like understanding what is the natural purchasing behavior around some of these and, you know, complimenting that or guiding that further rather than what I, what I advocate against all the time is trying to create some net new behavior. I think people are surprised like when it comes to upselling and if you look at your frequently bought together or if you look at your, you know, order journeys like often very often.

Not always, but often the best upsell is actually more of the same.

Okay, the last one I want to hit quickly backtracking a little bit, but this, this wave wears a brand. I don't see a lot of people talking about, I came across the founder on Twitter. Seems super cool organic cotton shell. I wanted to order some and they were out of my size, but I'm going to be in market for these soon. But what I loved about this, I don't see this too often.

It's to my point earlier, they have three packs and six pack bundling options. And then obviously it's like fashion, so the ability to like, select different colors is super important. And they have this like, they have a swatch selector, but you can select multiple. So it's a very easy experience to say, hey, I just want like, if I want the three pack, I want three of the Yin Yang black and white shorts. And you can just click that three times and that's kind of how you're naturally building your three pack bundle.

And then if I wanted the glacier and the red and the Yin Yang, I can select those different and this swatch is now multi selected. And I just felt it was like a really clean way to do this. It felt pretty intuitive to me overall. And like I said, it's something we're thinking a lot about.

So something first to experiment with as we streamline the process of buying multiple colors of the same product.

Yeah, we had a similar thing. Jens right on our mini miracle bomb set because again, usually people don't need two of the same things. So we probably would usually bundle different products and what makes sense together. But on a mini miracle bomb, you know, like they would. And so we had a similar one where people could get three of the same colors or they could often get different.

Also, it was less clean because we had to have a lot more like shade education. But yeah, we had a very similar thing where you pick first your quantity and then you pick your shades and then you add a card. You know the difference between hitting your numbers and missing them clear signal on what's actually driving growth. It can get really, really noisy. There's so much noise. You got platform data. You got blended data.

MMM, all the acronyms, MTA experiments, all of it, all pointing in different directions. The more you're spending, the faster you move. The more the bad signal can cost you.

“That's why we use house and we've been using it for years.”

That's why the other marketing operators do as well. They are the best tool on plan earth for measuring what we call incrementality. We talk about a lot on a podcast. What is the true impact of your advertising dollars on your business? We have causal MMM for channel level budget calls.

Causal attribution down to the ad level and architect their AI agent tells you exactly where your next dollar should go. And the results speak for themselves. Stockhick saw a 41% lift in IRO using house and you're not stuck with a help desk. You get an embedded measurement strategy to actually help your team make better decisions. Their whole team is great.

We've worked with a lot of them. They are world class there. Go to house.io/operators. And start backing your budget calls with real causal data. So apparently if you talk about upsells and say upsells and enough time, somebody from Africa will just show up randomly.

So we are now joined by Veroon. From after a cell, one of the co-fenders has a government. It's going great. How about you guys? Doing well, excited to chat, man.

You guys have been killing it on X. I know you just said before coming out, you've been seeing links everywhere. I've been seeing Afrocell on X. Seems like you guys are starting to go hard.

Yeah, we had over a million impressions in the last month or so.

So pretty awesome. Yeah, no, I love it because I love what you guys are sharing. It's actually like legit valuable stuff. And a lot of upsell things that people are talking about. So I'm excited to actually chat about it and learn a little bit.

And then would love to actually. During the session, pull up the the winks site and have both of you guys give a give it a little feedback on it. We don't have post purchase upsells live, but even on the rest of it as we talk about offers and stuff. This kind of I just spent like 20 minutes just talking about offers and and upsells. Just quickly.

“Veroon, did you know that we were going to be auditing the winks site?”

No.

Absolutely. I'm prepared. So this will be funny. You know, Cody told me last night he was like, our moderate tomorrow's episode. And I was like, that's it.

Like, Cody stepping up his moderator. He's he's soliciting free consulting from us. We're doing that. Yeah, I'm on a day for this. This is crazy.

There's not a lot of benefits to be in a DDC podcast. When or sometimes you get free products. You get to try some David ice cream and some cadence and the other thing. Right. The other thing is that you get free consulting.

That's why. Let's start post purchase because that is where I want to learn the most.

“You know, from you, that's where I think you guys have been sharing the most.”

Especially, like, I think it's super cool when it comes to supplement space.

First of all, I feel like the designs you guys are sharing are really, really cool.

Like, I learned a lot of like direct response marketing from like, click funnel stuff. And they had like these like long form via sales. And and when post purchase episodes like first started happening in DDC on Shopify, like they were very, very limited. It was just like a product and that is this something that you guys are just pushing

on like, is Shopify allowing more customization, what's going on and like, what's what's what's behind this kind of shift. Great question. Great question. Yeah.

So absolutely, you know, I've also seen so many click funnels and more, you know, drug response copy. And what we realized actually was our top versions. From our PZ basis revenue for visitor for order basis. We're already kind of adopting those those kind of like UI elements and those

are kind of a methodology themselves. They had figured out a way to do it. When we looked into those funnels and what they were doing was they're creating images everywhere. So it's like Shopify doesn't natively support, you know,

HTML on the post purchase API for example. So you can't like create whatever page you want. And that's been that's been the limitation from day one. But this year we're creative about it. You can just upload images that look like whatever you want instead.

So that's what people are doing.

This was this was always kind of possible.

But now like we've been kind of telling the world about it. And we've also made it even easy. Like we now have a templates library. If you go to aftersalt.com/templates. You can just download a bunch of these elements.

You can go to cloud design tell cloud to make it more like you own products, you know, you know, branding and then upload it back into afters. So we've also added features like VSL, which again are also not native. We've had to build that creatively.

“But yeah, I think it's it's clear to me that, you know,”

a lot of merchants want this and what you just been leaning into it. And is performance seemingly getting better like across support as brands are kind of adopting more DR styles and just like a little bit more elaborate built out funnels. For sure. Like I once through the top 10 stores by RPV. All of them have images and DR kind of narratives.

All right. Let's talk. Let's split this. Maybe I just would love for you to go through some best practices. Let's start like, let's split it by subscription versus not because I feel like this probably different. Like I'm seeing a lot of people talk about this subscription offer.

So first, non subscription like if somebody's just starting their person or like at Jones Road and like,

Connor from Hexclad has talked about this as well. Like a lot of brands just throw them up and kind of aren't like optimizing them and taking them seriously. And there's probably a lot of money on the table. What are some of the best practices? Like how should they think about it? How many upsells like what are some of the tips for setting them up properly? Yeah. Yeah. I think there's like a couple different aspects of this.

First, maybe it's just like the framing and the angle. Like I think a lot of people, they just do like a throw away, you know, upsell.

“But I think the value for further immersion and for the customer is like when you make it part of the actual angle, part of the avatar.”

You know, be like, hey, like you're buying this. And if you buy why it will accelerate the outcome that you've already like my recommended to example, right? Like maybe four wins, you know, you bought wins. I'm your committing to better sleep by by wins pro max. And then, you know, you're committing even more or buy a buy a, you know, a longer supply so that you have enough for the 90 days that it takes to, you know,

actually complete that lifestyle change of whatever it is. You know, who does it? Well, not it's not post purchase, but in cart groans does that. And if you're buying their regular adult one, they have some stat. And it's like 90% of people, it's whatever it is. But it essentially tells you that like you're more likely to stick to it if you buy the kids one for your family as well.

And so they do it pretty, but that's a really good example. And yeah, I've seen that for like, something like brands post and they'll talk about like the time and they'll have like an image. So that seems to work and just like talking about benefits and why the upsell is not just a price thing, but it helps with with the benefit. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think that kind of segues into like, like really what you're trying to do in the upsell is like ask for the question of like, why is this even there?

And I think it's just like it's just like the same CRO elements that happen.

“People just, you can apply post purchase of the same philosophies and like psychological elements.”

And we're trying to see more and more people do that. And definitely the revenue numbers show the results there. The other things I would say is like, you want to stop the scroll. Like we've seen a lot of funnels perform really well when there's an image at the top that says like, Hold on, like your words not complete yet or hold on.

You just qualify because it's special offer. Because the default is like just to kind of glaze over the screen there and like not really like looking to it.

“But you want to like break out of that trans little bit and get people to actually like read and review what you wrote there.”

And then the third is just more of like an approach is the approach is always just like iterating and testing like, you know,

We we we see some versions like been from too classic, for example, that they have new tests every week. They are like hyper optimizing it. And that that obviously will have those goals if you keep testing and iterating just like he went for any like, you know, pre-purchased CRO elements. All right, this ad is technically a job posting for Neon pixel, but but stay with me here. Neon pixel is hiring performance marketers.

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So whether you want to work on the sharpest CTV accounts in DTC or you want that team running yours, go to Neonpixel.co/careers to apply. Are there general best practices of setup? Like is it always like hey, your your main upsell should be more of the same at a discount and then your if they if they don't take it, your downsell should be this or your next like are there templates that are like generalized for 70% of the brands is like a good starting place. Yeah, I would say for depending on the category so for example, men's or general consumables more of the same is really effective.

I've also seen like more of like again a complimentary consumable, but I would say more the same is is generally more successful. And then yeah, I say except more of the same you can upsell done even more of the same like you can do even higher amounts and then if they decline or the same you can do lesser amounts. So that's a tactic I've seen I would say from for other categories like maybe like a parallel or beauty. I've seen a lot of like complete the set complete the bundle kind of thing. What it's like again like it's not you're not just buying another product it's like it's more like one plus one equals three or like what this other product.

You have a more complete solution to you know whatever whatever problem or whatever desire that you have. I've got a quick question. Well actually to one is a type of like a very technical one and could you maybe you guys are dealing with us if I check out with a 30 day subscription. And then I'm upsold something in the back end and I'm being upsold into a quarterly subscription or am I being upsold individual units and if I'm being upsold individual units are the brands then thinking about. My what's it called like the next payment like are they going to delay that for me because I bought a 60 day supply because I got a 30 day up so.

So the way our quarterly is proof in upgrade works by default is that it affects the the second bill so there's a fixed the readle so.

You know you get the quarterly upgrade after the 30 day period usually. We have seen people do just like bulk supply as well. But yeah, according up here right now as you as I probably see on Twitter is very popular.

“All the top sufficient brands are trying it and I think it makes a lot of sense like.”

Yeah, it's like if it's a if someone has already again micro committed for 30 days and then you're presenting them with hey like you've already micro committed. Let's just like complete that commitment at a lower cost. Yeah, it works super well. We've seen wind at 30% conversion rates with that offer type which is the highest I've seen. And that's actually you guys are switching the subscription for me on the back end. I checked out was a 30 day and I'm not just adding on additional items, you're switching me to a quarterly subscription.

Correct. Yeah, we're changing the selling plan on the back end for the next cycle.

You know, yeah, so rather than that subscription that first month being changed to a three month supply.

The first one gets fulfilled individually, but then on the next rebuild, they would essentially be shipped at three months. I've heard this whatever is obviously it's great for margin because you're consolidating three months of shipping into one. It's great for for LTV and retention from brands that I've heard because like the people that are that invested in it are likely going to take the product and get better results as well.

“So that's what I've heard why not why not change that first one like I would imagine technically you can and why not actually just ship them the three months from the beginning.”

You can we've we've had some margins started to try it out. I think that the. I think the reason some people are hesitant is just that just because then like the initial chart is like three X, you know, not three X made me two and a half extra whatever it is and that's a bit of a shock to people sometimes. One of the reasons I asked was I met with a brand recently who is doing the essentially bulk item up sells post purchase or checking out with the 30 day subscription. I get in additional 30 days of supply, but they wouldn't affect the subscription at all. I don't even know if they're using after sell frankly.

And then what they were not looking at is like the actual retention on those people because it was actually when you dug into the data you were creating churn because someone was over supply immediately. Yes, 100% like I was talking to a retention expert the other day and that's exactly what you're saying. We're like there is a risk if you have just a bulk supply and someone buys it and then they actually cancel your subscription. Obviously I don't want to do that.

Yeah, but it doesn't from brands have talked to it doesn't sound like that's happening with the the 90 day up sell maybe because it's on the second.

“Yeah, I think it's because I don't because it's on the second and then because it's also subscription as opposed to like a one time bulk supply.”

Especially if you do that bulk supply after you've already done that 30 day then like you know until you get like probably within the span of a few days like you know potentially like four months worth of stuff. If it's like a you know and then you're like way away like I have so much of this. Let me just cancel before before I get even more than that thing. What have you seen when they come in on a one time purchase, but it's a subscription brand who wants subscriptions everyone obviously wants to get as many subscriptions as possible.

I've heard mixed things I know that you can up sell them and try to convert a one time to a subscription. I've seen you guys have some templates that's like hey get a refund in this one, but I've also heard conflicting stuff and it's like hey the even just like general subscription life cycles of like it's very hard.

And to convert somebody from one time to a subscription.

It's actually like it's a very different buyer often and so some brands say you're better off just up selling them bulk more of that. Versus version, what have you seen where do you land on it? Yeah, yeah, no, I've seen what you're saying as well. J for Jacob on Twitter to have this post about that. Yeah, I generally like, I generally agree if they're if they're one time and you know if they're one time.

By the time you they come around to post versus like if all I've been tried, they've been like attempted to be. Up sold to subscription like probably like four or five times a line in the journey. So the you know there's definitely an argument which is like are they really going to you know switch to subscription then and and from like conversion rates like they're not they're not like 20 to 30%. They're way lower for that kind of offer.

“So so I think there is an argument in that case for for block supplies for sure.”

I think it's still contested. I think you know, this is like relatively recent that people have been testing all these things. It's probably probably here more in the coming months, but how it fans out totally. That leads me to a product request I have for you. You came on a few weeks ago, I had one for you then.

I wanted to do. I wanted to do after the thank you page. I wanted to be able to drive people back via email and SMS. This is my product product request. The double dash the double dash.

I'd like that double dash formally supported by after so that's my request. But I've got number two today and it's around this idea of upsell sequencing. One of the reasons I'm excited for upsell apps to consolidate a little bit is like we run our cart one way. We use afterself for most in checkout and post purchase now, but there's a time where those were different apps. And I'm like, so we're using the from from cart to in checkout to post purchase were three different apps at one point.

As we get more consolidation, what I'd love to be able to test is the idea of sequencing. You said, hey, by the time someone checks out with a one time order. They've already been we've attempted to upsell them probably three times or something that like they've probably already gotten all this messaging. They don't need it again and right now there's very few tools to say for us it's something like someone's checking out with the wall that we try to upsell them the tracker card.

It's by far most popular upsell.

But there's no way our optimal scenario is to hit the tracker card at every single point that we can at some point it's redundant. It's there's diminishing returns to that and the sequencing.

“I think there's a lot of value in so that's what I would love to see is like being able to build out more cohesive journeys that account for what they just saw.”

Connor, that's actually exactly our vision with the consolidation. Like, we want like a final not just to be like not not just to be post versus final but like literally like you know from PDP to cart to checkout to post purchase potentially even beyond. I think that's that's what the end game is. I mean the end game is like actually even from like the ad creatives like you know you'll have different avatars different buyer types. Should they really necessarily see the same you know upsells and check out in card and post purchase like maybe maybe not.

My guess is that like the evolution of this space will become like full funnel personalization and targeting and upselling. You guys got to change your name though. I got to cut the after just go sell and pre current and after so. But this is then this has been a topic of internal distortion for so long unfortunately. We're we're stuck with it, but I mean at this point it has such a brand cache that I don't think we don't know.

We can switch it's just too late on you could drop the after sell it's just cleaner. Just so that's what I was saying yeah, try to drop the after yeah yeah. I have plus one on both of those but I have my product requests as well. I like the double how far you guys from having like a read and write MCPs so I could set up MCPs from a. Upsells from the up.

We're not far at all. Yeah, so we already have the read piece.

“The right piece is being actively worked on.”

We're you know well, which is we're obviously just being careful about it like we want to you know. Not mess up any funnels by accident, but I would say like in the next few weeks we'll have writing to the funnels and then probably in this humans after that. You can just like have a full loop going or like, you know, the agent will just look at your analytics and then make the change and then so on. Well, if any of your favorite podcasters and links co founders could get early beta access to that would be happy to be a partner on that.

First of all, yeah, I will I will DM you afterwards.

Let's go. I'm so bad at like setting up stuff and apps and stuff like that. I like have lost that skill. Yeah, I mean, there's just so many apps going on. Most brands treat customer support as a cost, but with AI every support conversation is now a chance to increase for attention.

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I will say, you know, Cody, I think you mentioned this on Twitter.

You guys move towards more UGC, the original site had far more of like the little mascot character. Yeah, trying to get more trust. I'm just trying to kind of trust Max. Like that's the hardware. Now we don't have a lot.

Like we have some reviews. We don't have like real testimonials, but like if you look at a lot of the brands that are ripping and printing like, you know, like a promo queen or like something like that. Just even Mars men, like so much social proof, like they'll just have like stacked social proof. So many different ways to show it.

“And so that's what we're just trying to build towards, but I don't want to fake any of it, of course.”

And so it's just as we actually have legit testimonials and social proof coming in. We're doing that. You know what I would tell my team. So we're looking at it here better. So it been one easy step.

Dr. Formulated. No, I did melatonin. I got like the little sub value props below the shop. Now CTA 30 day guarantee. Pause, get per cancel at any time.

What I would tell my team is I feel like we have to be hitting values earlier. I agree. I should not be there. I agree. That's like not the right place for it.

Beautiful by box. Special offer. Save 26% plus four free gifts. You guys are running. So this is 28.

Twenty-night supply. Twenty-eight night supply. $48 was 65. That 28 is cheeky. You know, instead of monthly it's 28.

That's. That's, that's why I respect that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Extra building cycle throughout the year I hear. That's a great.

I mean, honestly, that's a great. That's one of my favorite optimization. It's going from 30 day to 28. And then I mean, it makes sense. We should be on a more calendar based system.

All the months are screwed up by days. So we should be on a weekly calendar. And then, yeah, to Cody's point, you get almost a full rebuild every year.

Because when we were talking earlier about just getting signal on meta, I'm kind of like,

do we actually go more aggressive with offer or maybe just set up like a landing page? Just to get signal and like, worry about margin later. What do you think? I don't know what the margins look like. I also don't know what competitors look like.

But you see the like Marsman or everyday dose. I mean, some of these, some of these other brands, like their 20 days subscriptions are like 29 dollars or whatever. 39 dollars. I do think 48 you guys are ending is on somewhat the high end here. I was going to ask on the point of pricing that we touched on earlier.

I like the difference between 65 and 48. Vroom just called it out. I think that's probably enough. Sean and I will argue about this because Sean will argue one time purchase should be significantly higher. It should be $89.

You get a huge mark down for going to the subscription.

“But my big concern is like, I, what you should be optimizing for is just like net new customers.”

And then considering that these one time purchasers like will have some amount of retention if they like the product. They'll purchase it again or they'll come back for a subscription or whatever else. So making that one time purchase, disincentivized enough so that you are driving subscriptions. But at the same time, not so.

Out. Agreediously price that like nobody's ever going to shop one time purchase because I think that is net net a negative. So where are you landing on that Cody? Yeah, so we had again when we launched we had the one time purchase. Not it wasn't a box right here.

We have like a small box. We had the one time purchase just be like a line that we like we wanted people to skip in this. And we had it at $86. And Jordan and our give us feedback, but also just seeing some data where like we just need signal. Like we just need to lower the prices get signal.

We don't care if it's a one time or a subscription right now. And in the future, we absolutely do. We just need to get signal. And we're a brand new brand, no trust, no social proof, no signal. We just need purchases.

So that was where it so kind of like this is not going to be our final offer. Like we probably need an offer that's worse for margin. Better for just getting volume and customers. And then over time, that was why we removed our 90 day from here. We're like, we don't need to focus on ALV right now.

Maybe later for an economic perspective. Totally. You know, the other thing that that reminds me of. So like, I don't see someone like groan's doing this. Maybe they do create is the one that I saw this a lot where they're main page.

Their homepage would drive to a buy box where you could have a one time purchase. You'd have the smaller one. They probably had some options around moving to 90 day things like that. Like a really flexible buy box that had a lot of different options from their home page. Because that's where they're like highest intent traffic is going to come.

It's the branded queries. It's some of the email marketing. It's the word of mouth. People are going to convert it to high rate. And you can just like extract as much value as you can without a lot of downsides.

And then their paid funnels would be like just subscription. It would just they had a completely independent buy box there that would just push you to subscription.

And I always felt conceptually like that was a nice balance.

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So this is $46 per bag. I just selected two bags. I'm going to check out and it's a $92 subscription. That's kind of unclear to me. On first read here.

I didn't re-selecting quantity. Yeah, I don't quite understand what's happening here. It's not clear what the pricing is. Well, it's $46 per bag. I guess I'm getting two bags.

And what I'm going to add to Cart here is $92. Just this select quantity, one bag, two bag. And then it's so being a $20, night $46 per bag. Maybe I'm just an idiot, but like, I don't know. If I were just like, if I were just scrolling Instagram and I'm just clicking through,

like, I wouldn't quite understand what was happening there.

“I'm also curious, like, why would you get two bags?”

Is it like you need a higher dose, which is it for your partner? What's the use case? I guess the ruins kind of making a clear report that I was trying to make. Like, I'd love to just better understand why I would why I would get two bags. Yeah, so we originally had it in that box of like,

we said, like, how many people in the family are sleepers? And that was also part of what we were trying to take like the family angle. And now we're not.

We could do better job with that.

But I saw a groom sit at the, it's just, you'd rather show a lower number. So the price per bag is probably better to say, but it could be more clear.

“I am planning on telling what you think, but I think, yes, we agree.”

I'm also planning on just cutting the quantity, just making it one by default. It also just, you know, simplifies things a little bit, moves up the CTA a little bit. Again, same thing, if we need a test getting AOV up later, we can test up.

But right now, it's like, we don't really care how many bags are getting. We just need customers. I would be tempted to just remove quantity. I do agree. If you are selling two bags, 46 dollar per bag is better.

And I am eight does that really aggressively. Where they just talk about the per 30 day cost or whatever. And, but then they're charging you on a quarterly rate. So it's like, it'll say $60 per month.

But then what you're adding to cards, actually, $180,

because you're getting it for three months. Yeah, and also somebody else pointed out, it's not a very good offer going from one to two. It's your saving two dollars per bag. It's not a good offer.

Fantastic. Like, carousel images here.

“I think this is, we've talked about it quite a bit, but like,”

this was just not a thing six years ago. Like, nobody would ever do this. Like, be as educational, have all these big infographics. Super, super clean. I appreciate it.

Yeah, I mean, they're obviously all AI. So I'm going to work on getting some more real stuff. Like, we have to do a few shoots. And I'm going to get more use you see in there for them. Like, I think that's where we could do better.

But I kind of just modeled the grooms kind of framework for what they have on theirs. We add to the cart. We're looking at it here. I got one 29 subscription. I've hit free shipping.

We've got the progress bar here. I love it. We're articulating the free gifts. $25 a kid in like credit. Rye sleep app.

This is a great value. Yeah. We get some social proof.

“I think I'm going to cut the upsell in there.”

And then make that social proof card bigger with like maybe like a human image in there. That's my current thought. What do you think about that? Yeah, I think that's good. This is I'm being like nitpicky here.

But like, I actually regularly registered these as being upsells. And it does say included with your free shipment. But like if I think it might be like a little white noisy to people, where it's like, you're just used to seeing like lines of things that you might want to add. And I didn't originally, or I didn't initially perceive it as like things that I'm getting.

It felt because the reason to me is. It feels independent of the product here. Like, you know, Shopify's default like bundle view is like you have like the hero product. And then the the like included items would be line items within it. Which might be another way to do it.

And then you have like more you could basically just move a bunch of stuff above the fold and better highlight some of the quotes and things.

Yeah, I agree with that. I was going to ask if you thought it's like a design thing that a it's like that headline could be bigger. That says included with your for a ship and we could have less. Higharchy devoted to the gifts meaning like probably not a big box, not a big purple background. And then your to your point if there's a way to kind of consolidate them under the main product. It's a design and hierarchy thing where like these field just as big as the actual product.

And therefore I registered them as like other products that you're trying to sell me into. That's totally fair and helpful. Have you tested font size? I feel like this might be kind of small. No, so small. No, I'm going to get big fonts. Yeah, I got to check that special symbol. Have you got anything for the cart?

Design and branding. It feels. It was very unbrand very premium. I'm curious. Call you how you set it up. So we had, but before I was involved, they hired a designer to kind of just did initial stages and then mat built like the V1 of the site.

The design system as well. And it's just been, you know, mat and myself, but just kind of codex cloud just going back and forth. And then, you know, we'll hire like a designer. We're going to like, right, we're going to like everyone was very, very AI to start. And now like we're looking for a photographer.

We're going to, you know, do some design stuff. But still keep doing as much, you know, AI as we can in there. You guys are on Shopify plus? No, regular. Yeah, okay.

So nothing crazy going on in the checkout here. Yeah, I was going to say it like it's, it's very vanilla. Anything we should do, or you think it's fine for now. Well, I don't mean you can do much, uh, given you a not on loss. Yeah, the thought didn't even occur to me.

And then we like ran into one issue with our like subscription settings. And I was like, damn, like, uh, haven't, haven't not been on plus ever. Do we have a postport just thing here? Should I check out? No, we don't yet. We don't yet. I have some drafts.

Uh, I am excited to get live. Um, but I'll tell you plan. I think we'll go. If, if you're on a one time, I will test, but planning to do the whole, like, Hey, you could get this refunded versus testing that, which is more volume. You know, probably go to three.

And then obviously we'll do that. If you get a one month, we'll go with the, the three month. That seems like that's just the, the no brainer, as you mentioned.

And yeah, I think if I can get, you know, mad or Curtis or somebody to do some videos,

“videos, VSLs, like that'll be really fun.”

That's well, no, me just fumbling through. Dude, I'm such a shop pay maximalist. Just easy. And then it's like, I got the Google pay last pass pay. All these things trying to prompt me. None of them have the right CVV. I'm not, I'm not a very sophisticated online shopper to be honest,

but, um, the link site is good. It would convert me. Me, see how my knife's already have an order in order in my house. I'm going to try it soon. Let's go.

Extremely productive episode for Cody.

He's getting consulting advice. He's getting customers. Well, it's got an order. I haven't, I haven't abandoned cart right now. I got to convince Connor to buy. I got, I got Vernon.

You got to go door to door the beginning early phases. No, this is helpful. Um, for what else do you guys got cooking? What's coming up? What's in the pipeline?

Outside the MCP that you can share with us. Because I feel like you guys got a lot of your sleep right now. Yeah, there's something really big coming out. I've, uh, I've teased it a little bit to a few people. Um, not gonna, not gonna announce it here.

Um, but I would say, in a month or so, we'll have a very unique epsilon feature.

“Um, that I think will have an immediate CRO impact for, like,”

basically every brand. Um, it'll be like a, it'll be like a way that, uh, people who're checking out can, can get even more of something. Uh, I don't want to reveal exactly what it is, but, yeah. Um, just a little tease there.

Connor might be the double dash. There we go. Hopefully, fingers crossed. Awesome. Um, and then vroom.

Uh, so everyone will stay tuned. I'm, I'm super excited to hear about that. Uh, where can people learn more about you? Where can people follow you? Where can people interact with with after so?

Yeah, for sure. Uh, you can follow me. Uh, ruin control on Twitter. Officials on Twitter too. Um, that's probably where we're most active.

And then, um, yeah, I mean, people can, you know, feel free to email me, message me, whatever. Um, I'm always open. I feel like a lot of your team has gotten really active as well. I feel like that's like a lot of you guys now.

Yeah. So then like a great push for it internally. Um, recently had this guy Russell join on our team. Uh, and in just his first few weeks, he's gotten like,

“I think over 100k impressions on Twitter.”

So shout out to him, like, incredible, incredible results.

He's like, he's a national in Twitter. All right, man. Well, thank you so much for coming on. This was great. I got a lot of good free consulting about about this.

But I think for everybody, though, there'll be a lot of good tips and tactical things that can go in implement. [MUSIC PLAYING]