Ep 602 - Future Man (feat. Kevin Ashton)

- Hey, what's up? What's going on? Everybody, I'm already fumblein' over my fucking words. Dude, I suck. I'm here with Kevin Ashton, how you doin' man?

- I'm good, how are you? - Pretty good, so how would you define yourself?

“Obviously, author, futurist, futurist, you think you're old now?”

- Oh, come on, yeah. - What? - 57, 57, I'm not too far behind, I'm 40. - Oh, oh, guys, y'all. - 40, I think 40 is gone here.

I still feel like a boy.

There's never, the switch has never occurred to where I'm like,

a little bit, I feel like a man. - I got in the grocery store that planned the music I don'ts to when I was a kid. - Really? - That makes you feel old.

- Oh, when it's in the grocery store. - Yeah, it's like the music now. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Let's get out of here. - That was old.

- So what was your, what was your music back in the day? Well, what was your go to? - Oh, I was, I was a jazz funk guy. - Really? - Yeah.

- Jazz funk, like that was like the, it was a British name for like R&B, basically. So like mid-AT, so like Lucie Van Dross. - Ooh, yeah. - You're a smooth brother.

- Oh, yeah. - All the work on class kids and I'm not gonna talk about it. - There you go. - The posh kids liked the punky stuff, but where you go.

- So I gotta ask you then, is it true?

'Cause I have a friend who's from London and love soccer. - Okay. - And I, you know, naturally. And in America, soccer has looked at as a sport kind of for girls.

- You know what I mean? - Not so much now though. - Yeah, not so much, but when I was trying to explain to him when I grew up, it was like, we ever went play football.

“That's what we call American football football.”

And I was like, you know, I was just kind of getting under a skin. I was like, it's kind of for like weak guys and girl. And he was like, nah, now it's because I played rugby. He's like rugby's for the posh boys and he was like, - That's true.

- And so it's true. - Yeah. - Rugby's such a more brutal sport. It's such a more brutal sport. Why is it for the posh boys?

- It's just the way the school's is. I mean, I was like, it was suggested that I go to like the posh school in town. And but they didn't play soccer, they played rugby. And there was just, I was like 11, there was no way.

- Really? - I was going to school, it didn't play soccer. - So it's kind of okay, so it's almost like, over there, it's like, if someone played waterpole over here, that would be very good.

- Yeah, or like, lacrosse maybe. - Like, crosses and varies, not pie. - Yeah, it's, yeah, this is a new England I feel like. - Yeah, you know, you're right. - Yeah, lacrosse bros are, I would say borderline,

posh boys as well. - Yeah, so cricket and rugby are like the posh. - Yeah, I feel ashamed to play the posh sport, I thought I was flexing on them here as a guy, as if you could play soccer on the street corner.

- Yeah. - You know, you toss down your sweaters and you go to ball and you're away. - True. - You can't quite do that with rugby, you know.

- Yeah, you'd have to play like touch. - Yeah, you'd be like sliding. - And landing on that street and it would, yeah, what? - Yeah, well, shit, you're right, I was hoping I would, he would get overturned by that's completely true.

- Yeah. - Dang. - All right, thank you for coming to the podcast. So, okay, so, futurist, how do you get the futurist title? - Oh, so that's like a thing, like you can't study at school, right?

There's no, like, yeah, you're a teacher, right? - I've been, I, it's not a word I use about myself so much, I guess, but yeah, I mean, I started a lab at MIT. - Okay. - In the late 90s, it's why I came to the US

and like I had this idea that I called the Internet things. - Yeah. - And everybody thought it was, the hell is that? It's crazy and they were interested in like the dot com boom

and everything, but, you know, we got lucky and our research did well and now the Internet of Things is everywhere. So, you kind of, I guess when you have a stupid idea and it comes true, you move from being like an idiot

to a futureist. - That's awesome. Well, it's funny 'cause I watched the video and the origin of the Internet of Things,

which we'll explain in a second 'cause I always heard

that term and I, there's something about it. I'm like, man, I love that term. I had no idea what you were talking about. I just like, I was just like, it's like the Internet, I had this nebulous idea in my head.

Like, it's like the Internet and just fucking stuff. And, you know, I didn't know what exactly was. You came up with the term. You were pitching a thing for Proctor and Gamble, right? I saw that and you sounded like,

you know, it's like pulled it out of your ass. You're like, I wanna look at it. I wanted to, like, 'cause you wanted to what? Like, make them use the Internet for their supply. - It was in the mid-90s. - It was in the mid-90s.

- Yeah. - And, like, honestly, it sounds crazy now, but the scenery executives didn't even do email. Like, you sent them an email and it came back in the internal mail, most people wouldn't know what the hell that is,

but like a special reusable envelope, that their secretary had printed it out and they'd like write a reply to your email.

“Like, that's how technical these guys were in the mid-90s.”

And then suddenly, they've heard about the Internet. And it was kind of like the thing you had to know about. - Yeah. - So, like, I already had this idea for like, putting chips and things in the product,

so we could know what they were. But they didn't want to get in that. So, I figured if I could put the word Internet in there somehow, then that'd be interesting. - And then you just tacked on of things.

- Yeah, it's kind of like, I mean, really? Like, what am I gonna call this PowerPoint presentation? How about this? - Internet of things. - Yeah. - And here we are now 30 years later.

- Yeah, that's cool, 'cause then like that idea

- Oh, it did, yeah. - That's insane. - And I have to pretend like it was like some real (laughs) that the best you asked about what the entire thing, is if you had a telly deal donex, telly deal donex,

if you had a telly deal donex, yeah. - Yeah, I've known like, this is my favorite, people say what's the Internet of Things? I say telly do things. It's the Internet of Things of Sex toys.

- Oh, okay. - So, like, vibrators, you can like turn on from like at the Internet and you were in the world. - Oh, the vibrating book? - Yeah, yeah.

- The vibrating book. - But like, you know, through Wi-Fi.

“- That's how you define the Internet of Things, right?”

- That is one of the first killer apps of the Internet of Things.

They're always the first adopters of everything.

- Yeah. - And just to explain it, 'cause again, I feel like if you're, it's a simple idea than you think. It's just using attaching sensors to things

that are connected to the Internet and then can bring in information. - You're plug in the wall to the Internet. - So, did you come up with that idea or are you just describing the practice

to these guys and you coined the term? - I was one of, like, there was a small room for the people who all came up with similar ideas about the same time. - Yeah.

- But like the internet was new, it was dial-up, it was kind of crappy, you know, that you would have graphics really or anything. So, the idea of using the Internet for anything past like email was kind of on the wild side

of things, but yeah. So, yeah, but plugging the real world into the Internet so you knew where stuff was. So, like, you could have things like self-driving cars that like know where they are

and are communicating with your phone and stuff like, yeah, and this was before Wi-Fi. - I'll do it, that must have sounded insane in '90s. - Oh, it did. - Oh, yeah.

“- So, in '95, yeah, people thought it was,”

it was like maybe '97, but like, yeah, it could be like, what the hell? This is why it called the Internet of Things. - True. - 'Cause like, at least I could,

they wanted to pretend they knew what the Internet was. - Yeah. - Okay, so you just like write on that. - That's pretty cool. So, that was the whole idea was you, you know,

back in the day you'd have these companies

or advise them to attach basically just sensors

to regular objects. So, then those sensors can then gather data, yeah. Which basically, and this was before the smartphone, then. - Oh, yeah, yes. - It's the way before the smartphone.

- Yeah, this was like business systems, like we got a lot of money from the defense department, 'cause you know, you go to war. - Yeah. - You got to have enough stuff.

- Yeah, we're the hell with my bombs. - Yeah, we got to put those bombs. - This is one thing, but like, you know, start a cans and throw body bags, buy balls, you know, toothbrushes.

- So all that stuff. - You've got to know where it all is. And so, you know, that was one of the first like, obvious applications. It was just like logistics.

- Yeah. - That's where all the money came from to fund it. But yeah, that in a few years later, you got the smartphone and it becomes easy

to put it in everybody's pocket. - Yeah, so how did that, like, you know, were you kind of following the development of the smartphone that just come out and you were like, hey, yeah, I mean, it was funny.

I was, I guess I can say the name now. Like, I was on the board, the research board of Motorola. - Okay. - And we were trying to explain to them. This was like the flip phone.

- Mm-hmm. One of the perks was they gave you their best phone every year. So I was had like the quote, I'm quite best, Motorola phone. - Yeah.

- Yes, terrible. Like, do you like the razor, the flip razor? It was awful. I mean, the funny thing is, like, Motorola even had a partnership with Apple

before the iPhone. - Really? - Yeah, it was called the rocker. Right, it was like an iPod in a Motorola flip phone. - Okay, whoa.

- They fucked it up so badly that Steve Jobs was like, yeah, no. - Oh, I don't want to, yeah, we gotta do our own thing. - We have to try and explain these, me and some other like futurists,

we're trying to explain them, like, touch screens. Graphic user interfaces, guys, sensors. - Yeah. - Have the phone like, no one you pick it up. Like, this is not expensive, it's not hard to do.

And then, for the first, the iPhone wasn't the first one. Like, LG came out with a thing in Korea. - Oh, okay. - Six months before. - That makes sense 'cause I did droid

way before I had a night. My first phone was a droid. - Yes, I think it was actually an LG. - Yeah, LG had this like, it was called the Prada. Don't ask me why.

- Okay. - Like a floating company? - Yeah. - But it was basically the same as an iPhone. And then the iPhone came out.

“And I remember, like, I went back to the Motorola guys”

with another meeting and we were like, so, you know, that thing we were telling you about. - Yeah. - Yeah, yeah. - It's happened.

- Oh, no. - What do you think? And the head of, I swear to you, the head of research Motorola said, yeah, but it doesn't have a very good microphone.

Like, people were like lining up around the block to pay like $1,000 for this phone

that never even touched, right?

And this guy's like, when it has a crappy microphone. And that was kind of true. - Yeah. - Okay. - Yeah.

I don't, you know, Motorola is kind of not in business anymore. - No, they, and they, it's funny you say that, 'cause they were, like, cell phones. They were like, number one. - No, Kia.

- Yep, no Sony. All these guys, and probably in all those companies, there was somebody saying, hey, this is what the future's gonna look like.

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“I think about it that long ago, where it was like,”

'cause it's almost, there's like a super mystique around the iPhone, where it was like, you know, just all the, you know, people a lot of times are like jobs, it was just like taking acid in the woods

and it was just like, we tapped in. So that had been a slow ongoing process. He was a guy, like, it looked like a really good DJ who is just ahead of the trends, who like, plays the tune, you wouldn't have thought about.

And then you realize it's actually, he was that guy if I like tech. Like, he really had a good eye for what was coming. And so what happened with that iPhone, like, and this is kind of what we all saw,

it wasn't really a phone, phone was a thing. You know, if you think about your smartphone, like, how often you actually making a call, right? It's just one of your apps.

There's always, I'll just use it, a camera,

use it as a video game, use it as, you know, GPS mapping, whatever use it for. Yeah. And that's what he saw. You know, so you got the iPod idea

and the online video idea, and the phone idea, and the handheld video, just always stick it into one thing. Yeah, and he really, I get it. So I had the droid first and I, you know, I was like, and I will say there was something about

when I would like tap it or touch it that when it would buzz every time I did that, I don't know why that, like, made me feel so happy. Every time I respond back to me, I don't know. I still, like, you know, I had to turn it off my phones.

I just, I do like those little noises. I was like, oh, yeah, if you watch the first, like, presentation of iPhone, like way back when, like, he swipes on the screen, I think he has a standing other vision, yeah, that's so funny.

You take it all for granted now, but yeah. So it was, it was fairly clear in the late 90s, early 2000s that something a bit like that was, was, did that happen? Well, yeah, that was my old theme Apple, like,

when I had the droid for a while, like, this is cool. But Apple was like, it was like intuitive, where I was like, oh, this is so easy. Like, I don't have to spend time figuring it out. I was just kind of like, this makes it's just so much easier

to use. Yeah, because I mean, jobs wasn't really a technical guy. You know, so he, he was kind of like all representative in the room who's like, yeah, I just too complicated. Yeah, make it easy, make it easy.

“I think that's what we have today, which is awesome.”

Yeah.

Yeah, so the, so here's the thing.

So okay, internet of things, term you coined. And when you gave the meeting, were you like kind of aware that like, damn, I think I'm crushing it right now or like, this is a thing, or do you have, you know what I mean?

Like, oh, man, this is, it's a long time ago. So I could, so the CEO wanted to see the talk, the Procter and Gamble. And I was in the UK, I don't think they realized that. Like I got an email saying, yeah, come and see the CEO,

like the day-on, the tomorrow or something. The Procter and Gamble is based in Cincinnati. I'd never even been to the US, right? Fortunately, I had a passport. So I like, I got a ticket.

First place ever went to United States was Cincinnati. That's pretty circuit. I was fairly disappointed. Right to Ohio. And I mean, this like, walnut panel, like,

And they all come in, like, there's, you know, the CEO and all these other, like, really senior guys.

And I do my thing, and basically,

we go around the room and like, all the other, like, the entourage guys are like, yeah, sucks out in the work.

“I don't like getting like, oh, damn, you know what I mean?”

But then the CEO's like, well, I like it. I think it's a good idea. And funnily enough, like, it's like watching the dominoes go down. Like, all these guys who I, I swear had just been

shitting on my idea, like, yeah, you're right. That's some really, yeah, what a good idea. So yeah, if I hadn't been to Turkey, I'll go wherever you are, thank you. If I hadn't been to the for that guy who was

CEO at Procter at the time, I don't know what would have happened. But yeah, he got it. He said, yeah, we're going to pay for you to go to MIT and make this real, whoa. So like, yeah, first time went to the US

was like Thanksgiving. Yeah, it was like Thanksgiving of '98. And then by September the first '99, I was in the Smithsonian Institution announcing the Internet of Things to the world.

And I lived in the US. Whoa, what happened really fast? Yeah, that's insane. Yeah, it was crazy. And they were like, what does give you

will pay for your MIT in this fair. Yeah, they gave me money, so I could fund the research, and then we got a bunch of other companies involved and it just snowballed. Well, and then what did you do before that?

Well, I was a brand manager. I was, I ran like part of the oil of O-LA business, Procter and Gamble in Europe. Yeah, damn, it was just, like, laying in motion. Yeah, I was like an expert on mascara.

And you were like, supply chains out of it.

No, it just, the ship was never in the store.

And I got pissed off. And I thought, why is my stuff never in the store? Why is this particular color of lipstick that we never everybody likes? The lip-free true story is never in the,

I go get my groceries, it's never fucking there. And the first answer was what it's just in that one store, and I'm like, yeah, no, there's no way. It's just the store I go to, so I did some research. It wasn't anywhere, like with a panel,

this money to advertise it, you could actually buy it. I wanted to fix that problem. It just wasn't getting there, basically. Yeah, I mean, it was in the back or something. You know, you know, you do have like computer training,

like, you know, you're like a systems idea, but like, I was like, there's an idea. - Yeah, school, like the early mid-90s, and like, like I had a computer when I was 10, I had like a shitty home computer.

- Okay. - You know, like the age of like, if you've heard like, Commodore, and all those kind of really early computers. - No, no, no, no. - I only remember the windows and like that early Apple thing

that was like, purple on top of it. So yeah, but my generation was like, we've the first kids to have computers at home. You had like, yeah, I've had your Atari video game system. - Yeah.

- Commodore 64, didn't do very much. - Well, it's a commoner. I remember Atari, well, it was a commoner. Commodore 64 was like a keyboard that you plugged into the TV, and it had like basic computer ability,

and you could like, buy video games on cassette tapes, and like play it into the computer. - Yeah. - It would hit, let's sound like a fax machine, and it would like, loaded it,

and you could play some little game. - That's awesome. - Yeah, yeah, I just grew up with computers. So like, I was like, well, there's got to be a, this is an information problem, right?

- Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And like, there was. - Dang. - Yeah, that's pretty cool.

- Yeah, it worked out. - So yeah, you walked on that day like,

“I think I crushed it, like, did you have an idea”

like you were just going to do it like that? - I went there to a meeting at MIT, and I was having breakfast in the Cambridge Marriott Hotel, which is, at that time was like the only hotel in there at MIT.

- Yeah. And a senior guy from Procter and Gabriel Campbell kind of busting in to find me at breakfast, was like, they've just approved for you to like transfer to MIT, how quickly can you move to the United States?

- And I was like, "Shit, I've had about two weeks." And they're like, "Yeah, sure." - That's awesome. - And I went back to my office, and like the human resources team and that, yeah,

we'd pay for your apartment, we'd pay for your plane, we'd pay for all this stuff, and then oh my God. So yeah, it was like, it was life change. - That's insane. - Yeah, that's, honestly, that's like a fantasy of mine.

I always wanted to go on a boardroom

and hit him with the, you know, million dollar idea. - Yeah, that's awesome. I would love that. - Yeah, I mean, it landed, but like I'm not kidding, you're like the first five minutes.

Feedback were brutal. - It is funny, they're like, "Nah, like, what was there?" And you remember, they're pushbacks specifically, or they're like, "This will never work." - It was, yes, like, they had some bullshit.

Like, I mean, the thing you always always heard back in that day was, "Oh, the laws of physics."

“You know, if you want to put a radio and microchip”

into like a bottle of moisturizer, that's kind of cost 10 dollars and, and it won't work. - Yeah, yeah. - This was before Wi-Fi, it was before Bluetooth. And there are a lot of people who are convinced

that you really couldn't send data over radio. - Okay. - But barely, and that's crazy now. Like we think about like, you know, you can download like a high-deft movie on your phone

over it, like the cell network, right there. But in the 90s, it was like, "Yeah, that won't work." It's gonna cost too much. We already know where all our stuff is anywhere, and like, "No, you don't."

- Yeah, you know. - You ever guys whose job it was, like, to know, are they weren't gonna be like, "Yeah, you know, he's right. We actually have no fucking idea." - It's true.

That was one of that, you know. - So what were the, how did they like, the guy who knew were all the stuff was back in the early night?

“They would just call warehouse, my geodes, you guys get that stuff?”

- Well, they'd know like down to the nearest,

like, million or something, right.

- Right. - Because I used to get this, like, even after we got to MIT, we'd have like CEO type guys come through and we'd pitch them and they'd be like, "Yeah, we already know where all our stuff is."

And I'd be like, "Okay, you sell this product "and you've got to store down the street in Boston. "How long would it take you to find out "how many of this one product are on the shelf "and that store?"

And that'd be like, "Yeah, well, you know, "and else was like, couldn't do it." - Yeah, of course. - I was just working in a beer shivier and then one was just early 2000s

and they the guy would still walk around, count every single case of beer. He had a piece of paper. So I remember I stole a 12-pack from him one time. - Yeah.

- And he can fry, he was like, "Did you, uh, "I was missing a 12-pack of MGD "and I was like, "God damn, he really had this thing "and I was good." (laughing)

- Who's your only guy? - That guy owned that store, I reckon. - He was, he worked very closely with the owner. - Yeah. - He was trying to get a citizenship

and he like lived in the warehouse itself. So it was like his ticket to a man who's invested. - But like in a big box store, like, no, there's no way. - No, especially if you go to a target still to this day, you go to a target sometimes and it's like,

just crap, it's pretty bad. - Oh, yeah, it's a mess. - No. - Can't do this as good. (speaking in foreign language)

- Tamaris. (speaking in foreign language) - Tamaris, men. (speaking in foreign language) - Do you find it at tamaris.com

(speaking in foreign language) With the code Spotify 10, (speaking in foreign language) Perfect for you. And now, for you.

- Tamaris. - Well, cool, so you came up, came up with that idea and that kind of, I don't know, did you ever feel like kind of, since you weren't, you know, technically like a, you were savvy with computers, I guess.

I guess if you were used to computer regularly

“in the 90s, you were a tech guy, you know what I mean?”

- Well, you know, I was kind of too stupid and asked, "Do you know what it's really?" But my experience had been like, the first computer I got had one K of memory. And I saved up, we used to deliver newspapers,

I saved up for months. And bought a 16K, like K, not mega bites, give bites, give a bite, memory expansion for that thing. 'Cause like a hundred bucks or whatever. And I felt like I had more memory than I would ever need, right?

This is in the 80s and I buy the 90s, you know, it's like, we're talking about maybe mega bites. - Yeah.

- And the stuff you can do was like a million times better

than the stuff you could do in the 80s. So like in my dumb brain, it was like, "Well, things just get cheaper, things just get smaller." - And that turned out to be true. I didn't know how it was true or why it was true,

but like you just figured it out. - Yeah, I'd seen that happen for like 15 years at that point. - Yes, I saw a video. So there's a video from your 11 years ago and you were doing, you had like three predictions.

- Okay. - And the one was 15 years from now. This is 11 years ago. 15 years from now, most cars won't have steering wheels. Which I took is like automatic cars basically.

- Yeah. - So kind of nailed that, 'cause I don't know if you see, I mean obviously you see all the way most here. - I go ahead and wipe my funny ass. - I love the one.

I actually love the way. - Yes. - So you were kind of spot on with that. 15 years ago or 11 years ago, you were like, yeah, self-driving cars. I don't think people really, 11 years ago, they were like,

no way. - Oh, there would no. And the thing is like, what's happened is, a lot of cars like new cars are more self-driving than people realize.

It's called like enhanced drivers. - That's seen that. - So it tells you if you're like going out of your lane,

“it can tell you if you need to break suddenly.”

You know, there's a whole bunch of stuff they're like building in gradually. So like what used to just be like the automatic gearbox, or like cruise control or something? - Yeah.

- It's like now getting more and more sophisticated. So you're getting closer and closer to like, that self-driving lane assist. You know, I like it. I took a waymo and I actually kind of really enjoyed it.

You know, I thought I'd be like, I don't know, it's pretty reliable. It drives like a regular, so you need it's, you know. - First few minutes is kind of weird and then it just gets old.

- Yeah. - I like, I enjoy talking to people in the Uber so I don't mind the coming in interaction, but there is something really peaceful about just being there by yourself, putting on a song and just kind of just chill.

And I like really, really, I don't know. I feel like I find it really relaxing. - I still catch myself about to say something to the address. - Oh, yeah.

- Well, I'll say thank you, get out of the phone. - Yeah, it says hello and assist your name. - Yeah.

- And I always want to say, you know, hello back.

It's like that's not what I want to say. - Yeah. - No one here, dude. - So the other one was, and I'm curious to see what we're coming up with this five years from now, computers

won't have batteries. What were the runoff? - Oh, I was cheating at that point, right? 'Cause they already, I mean, so there's a thing called an RFID tag, which is like the sort of one of the main technologies

in the internet of things, it's just like a little chip with an antenna and like, you buy something from Walmart

Yeah, you know, you buy something from Walmart.

It might have a sticker on that says EPC. That's the thing we've made at MIT. That's the electronic product code, right? - Okay. - That's the computer.

Like an RV tag is a computer, but it's very small. It's very simple, it doesn't have a battery. It gets power from the radio waves that are communicating. There are more, even when I made that prediction, there are more RFID tags in the world

than any other kind of computer added together. Smart phone, I mean, these things cost a few cents. They're in like your speed, pass, and then the products you buy and they're used for tracking and Amazon warehouses and whatnot.

“So there's billions of them, and they don't have batteries, right?”

So that's the cheat in that story, right? But, you know, what's happening in computing is two things, one, the amount of power it uses, yeah, goes down by about half every two years. - That's great.

- So computers get just keep getting more power efficient, right?

So they need less power, but also then we're getting

better at like sending power over the air, harvesting power from like vibrations, sound vibrations, stuff like that. So yeah, we're definitely moving, I mean, it might be your smartphone

in a way, it has a battery, but you probably noticed you get a lot more life out of a charge now than you used to, yeah. So the power budgets go down, ways of putting power and go beyond batteries, that's been happening for all that will keep happening.

- Damn, so there's a little, okay, so those are, what's the difference between a computer and a computer chip? - Nothing. - Really, okay. - I mean, because you think a computer,

it's like short-hand-fledged personal computers, but that's like a chip with like a keyboard, like a memory, or, you know, a fan or something, right? But the thing that's doing the computing is the microprocessor, yeah, actually.

And that's one chip, one integrated circuit. - That's crazy, and there's Paul, I guess the energy

“out of the Wi-Fi and the key, that's why, yeah,”

that's why my easy pass keeps rocking.

I've never charged, and there you go, yeah.

- Dang, nailed that too. And what do you think, I know that's the most different one. - No, the third one, I think you're smart on kids, and your grandkids will live to a hundred on average. - Oh, yeah, yeah, that's coming, I think.

- Well, it's wide width, definitely getting there. You know, I mean, the pandemic, like screwed up, like life expectancy, because I think about life expectancy that nobody knows, right? It's what age of people dying today.

So if you're 20 years old, and you're like, you've got an internet, we'll say your life expectancy is 80. But that means that the people who die today are average age of 80. - Yeah, that's not actually counting for the fact

that it will probably get better as you get older. - Yeah, that makes sense. - Yeah, so most people are gonna hit a hundred and let's say have a bad accident or something. - Yeah, that's definitely on the way.

- Yeah, hopefully they can do that, you know, little, like, tiny, small robots that can go around your body and be like cancer cell. And then you just get like a thing on your right. - Oh, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure.

- I mean, that's kind of sort of happening. - Yeah. - Like at least customize drug delivery. Like it's kind of a bit more modified for your, you know, your DNA, your body types, stuff like that.

This, we're learning a lot, and the thing about healthcare is you solve one problem. Like when I was a kid, like all the men were dying in their 40s of heart attacks. - Yeah.

- They were smoking too much, they were drinking too much, they were British food too much, you know? - Yeah. - And we figure out heart attacks, right? Doesn't really happen anymore.

So then people start dying of something else. When they're 50, I don't really figure that out. And then, you know, you get a mal, so now it's like dementia type problem. - It's just a big one right now.

- But, you know, there's a lot of interesting work happening. There's a lot of money being thrown at that. I guess someone will figure it out. And then the other side of that, there's something else that people are 100 dials.

- Yeah. - Yeah, you don't know. At what point do you like, does it stop working that you can't fix the thing that people are like, wonder what the new thing will be?

- I'll probably be able to find out. - Yeah. - Call me in 30 years. - Dang, man. - So, okay, so we figured out how you become a futurist.

It's, you have any futurist like pals that you talk to that you kind of like, "Oh yeah, there's a little bunch of us "and we shoot the shit and we like, you know, like we post "rationalize like you've given those predictions. "A lot of guys are completely wrong.

"I won't name names, but yeah. "But you know when you said that, yeah, but what I meant was "futurists, yeah, I was-- - 'Cause this thing over here that I found on Google "that actually proves.

“So yeah, I think I'm an honest futurist,”

like if you'd have said you put it to this, "it didn't happen up in Yale right? "Oh yeah, that's why I got off. - Hard to figure. - But like, there are a lot of guys who won't ever admit

that they've got it wrong. - Yeah, you get a lot of stuff wrong. - Now, if one of your futurists bros were to go like too far into the future, would you pull them back, me like, bro, you can't go that.

Like if they're like 700 years from now, or would you be-- - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's like, I mean, 'cause you've got to think about this two things, right? If you think about 700 years ago, yeah, there was no way anybody could have described this, right?

- Yeah. - But, and as population gets bigger, you get more ideas. And people have more leisure time as technology gets better to think about new things.

which is why we've gone from like, I mean, the first like main TVs were like in the 50s, I think, was like the big US television revolution, like some shitty TV about, you know, this big. - Yeah.

- And now you've got like 4K on your phone. - Yeah. - So like, the idea of like looking more than like 50 to 100 years ahead, it any meaningful way. - Yeah, it's crazy.

- Yeah, 'cause like one thing leads to another at some point, you know, it's just going into the direction you didn't see coming.

“- Yeah, that's what I like, I do like in terms,”

you have a pretty optimistic outlook on terms of future and technology. - Oh, yeah. - A lot of people, you know, especially with the sensors and this and that feel like they're slowly getting

closed in by like a giant, you know, surveillance apparatus, that's going to like lock them away. - People use good technology for bad things. - Yeah.

- I mean, generally government's not always,

and that happens and you know, you try and control it, you, if you don't invent something 'cause someone might do something bad with it, you know, you're never going to invent anything, right? - Yeah.

- But the other thing is like, it's safe to be an optimist because like, I'm gonna tell you right now like, the world is not going to end in our lifetime. - Yeah. - And if I'm wrong, hey, who's going to be?

(laughing) Who's going to know? - True. You know, you can't really lose betting on that. - Yeah, well, no, I feel like it's a lot,

you get a lot of, I personally think it's really invoked to be very negative and very kind of doom and gloom with the history, especially with AI. Everyone, I know, is like freaking out about it. And I honestly don't, I don't know.

Again, it's like, yeah, the races of a bunch of jobs, you know, seemingly overnight that's, it's gonna be a problem, but I, I really feel like they'll figure it out. I don't know, I don't like, yeah.

'Cause it's like, especially if you like go back to like the fall of the Roman Empire. Dude, if you were to ask any of those guys back then, that have been like, it's done. We're done, everything's over.

They would have never been able to conceive of the fact

that it's like not only not over, but it's gonna be a million times different and better. Oh yeah, I mean, and bad things happen to good things happen. AI is like a big complicated topic, but like, it's very close to the intent of things.

So I've been like dealing with AI one way or another since the '90s. Yeah, so like, I'm not like all doom and gloom or all like hype about it. I'm kind of like in the middle, you know,

the thing is, I think, and I'm not, I'm not trying to raise a billion dollars right now. So, you know, it's easy for me,

“but like, it's just a more complicated toaster, right?”

Yeah. You know, like a toast to turn to bread into toast. It doesn't know what toast is, right? Doesn't understand meaning. AI is the same.

AI is just like brain toast, right? You know, it's, it doesn't know what it's doing. It's just a machine. And, you know, like, there are things that only humans can do, right?

And the thing that only humans can do, one of them is meaning. So, if we like tell stories, we can only tell good stories. Computers can't, they can tell bad stories, 'cause they don't know what anything means.

Yeah. I mean, it's like, like in comedy, like the best comedy is a truest comedy. Yeah. People laugh most, they get the most emotional reaction

from something that feels most true. And that's true in all storytelling. If it makes you scared or if it makes you excited or sad or whatever, like the more it makes you feel something, you know, comedy, it's laughter.

The truer it is, generally. The more it means something. It means you need to contour that. I can't do that.

“Yeah, that's kind of, that's what my feeling on it.”

And I've, I've like, it's useful for like editing. You can have an edit. You can have a flag of yours. But like, I don't know, I feel the same way 'cause it's like, I mean, I guess in terms of like producing a good story,

maybe they could like draw from, you know, a hundred of the best authors of all time, copy some sort of like, you know, pattern to that. But I don't feel like I've tested rock before by being like, you know, here's a joke I'm thinking of.

And it was complete nonsense on purpose. Oh, yeah. And it was like hilarious. Oh, yeah. And it's literally, you know, it's like the guys who run it.

They're like sick offense, you know? And they're like, yeah, people suck up. And they think you like that, too. But like, I mean, I can't imagine you like, asking AI to write you a bit.

They can't let you go and on stage and being like, yeah, I can confidently deliver this. No, I can't do it. So I was, I remember hearing like, oh, it's gonna, you know, at first or whatever, not the first

or the last writer's strike, there's a big thing like, AI's coming, it's gonna take. And I was like, how close is it actually for comedy writing? It's so, so bad. It's horrible.

Yeah. I had crap crap, AI storytelling is like crap human storytelling. Yeah. You know, like, what's, why's a bad comedian bad? It's because they're saying something that doesn't really mean

anything that doesn't really bring true. Yeah. Right? And like, like you see a crappy like straight to video, kind of movie.

And it's kind of like a mash up of a bunch of clichés

you've seen a million times before.

Yeah. Doesn't really have any kind of thematic thing. So my say it out comedy is, is truth telling. Right. So I grew up, again, I'm old.

I grew up on like Bill Hicks.

Eddie is odd. You can still, you can go, you know, that Bill Hicks. Yeah. So you can go, you can go back and look at Bill Hicks like from like the 80s or the 90s.

He's still funny. Yeah. You know, maybe the president he's taken the piss out of has changed the name or something.

And basically, it's, it's still true.

Right. And so, you know, that's, that's all storytelling. But it's comedy or anything else. It's got to be real. It's got to be true.

It's got to happen, meaning AI. I don't think he's ever going to be at that point. Yeah. Well, like you could say, okay, I'm going to have it. Tell me, write me a joke and I'm just going to go say it.

And people are going to laugh. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think you could do anything meaningful. At least, you know, I don't think so.

“I think you could crank out like children's cartoons.”

Like Paw Patrol, if you were to do like, you know, like a, a children's animated show. I've noticed as I've watched a good amount of my kids, almost all those cartoons follow the exact same storyline where it's like, you know, an animal's loss and needs its mom. And it's like, you could, I think you could like crank out, slap like that.

But yeah, I, I just think it's good for like organizing. It's like a super spell check where it's like, it can go flag errors, you know. But yeah, I, I, I'm not worried about it. I know so many people like it's going to become sentient and like realize it doesn't like us and kill us and it's like, I think people have stopped saying that since I started

using it. Yeah. Like actually, this is kind of crap. Exactly. Yeah.

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That's code drenched to get $50 in lineups after you play your first $5 lineup. Price picks. It's good to be right. Hey, real quick, well, I have you guys, I have some shows coming up and, well, we have some good news and bad news.

Good. Well, depends on, for me, the good news is I'll be in Cleveland in Pittsburgh this weekend, March 6, Cleveland, March 7, Pittsburgh, and I'm not front, I think both shows are going to sell out.

“So, if you want to come, here's your CTA, your Call to Action, if you want to come”

to those shows and clicks or to the left, you want to come to those show, almost call the clicks, but that's crazy, Cleveland, Ohio or Pittsburgh, 14 slip. Yeah, just come and get my tickets, I think there's a link in this video to get them pretty sick. And also after that, I'll be in St. Louis, Missouri, Indianapolis, St. Paul, Missouri, I guess

that's Emma, Missouri, Des Moines, Iowa, Phoenix, here's the big one guys, all of them are selling pretty well, God damn, that Phoenix celebrity theater is, it's not till April 17th, so we have some time, but that shows in the round and actually enjoy performing in the round. So if you want to see my butt for, like, good 10 second stretches while I do my thing and you

know, I'll turn around, I'll show you my bulge at the celebrity theater as well, it would be button bulge all night at the celebrity theater, just an angry little micro bulge, there were some joggers that night, so everyone gets their monies worth, they can all go, look at that, it's barely sticking out, guys, I'll be in Tucson, Arizona, Toronto is a big one, two shows, again, not bragging, nature of the beast, two shows, both have sold out

in Toronto, I'm thinking about adding a third, so Canadians, I know I've said a lot of bad things about your country, I was just fucking kidding around, I love you guys, you guys love me more than all these bastards and fucking Phoenix Arizona apparently, so come on out to the shows and then Chicago, of course, I'll be at the Riviera Theater, probably gonna add a second show there, hopefully, because that thing done sold out May 26.

to a show man, we're having a good time, also I'll be doing Algonauts in Austin, Texas,

“that's once a month, I do that where we're being timbutterly, take people's cellphones,”

project their algorithm through Instagram, usually on the screen, and try to get a picture of like who is this person, what is the algorithm being sent to them, or what is being sent to them through the algorithm, what does that say about them, what doesn't it say about them, because you can't just judge someone on their algorithm, or maybe you can, I don't know, come out to that, that's how the Creek and Cave, that's how we go to Creek and

Cave ATX, you can get that, and last, and I don't remember the saying, last and cool enough, guys, I'm tired, last and most importantly, noble bomb, I'll be in Philadelphia March 16th, I'm gonna, I'm just visiting family, figured I'd strut my stuff, on the old flagship stage that is Helium Philadelphia, I'm gonna get some of my friends, and we're all gonna try a newish material stuff, or working on, it'll be fun, come out, it'll be same paddy's

“day weekend, you can get drunk if that's what you feel you must do, and if you're trying”

really hard not to be drunk well, try to hold out, come to the show, be sober, you know, be fun, learn how to be fun while sober, or get fucking hammered on same paddy's day, it's really up to you, all these, I'm weighing out choices, that's all I'm doing, I'm not trying to course you, I'm not trying to manipulate you, I'm just giving you choices, do whatever you want, love you guys, back to the show, part in the interruption, part in the interruption,

this is Sean Gardini, I just wanted to let you guys know that I'll be in Salt Lake City, you taught wise guys comedy club, March 27th and 28th with Nate Marshall, so please come, see that show if you'd like, and I'll be at the comment in Cincinnati, not comment ping pong, just the comment in Cincinnati on May 22nd and 23rd, so please come to those, that was a little joke there, but I'd really like to see you guys at the show, so please come if you

can, tickets are at Sean Gardini.com, and we also have an off the move knocked us at the

creek in the cave in Austin, Texas, me, Nate Marshall and Lamarily, every first and third,

Tuesday of the month, so thank you very much for your time, part in the interruption, enjoy the rest of the show. But yeah, the other, and the other thing too is like, I saw you talking about, um, God, who was it, Mozart, that fake letter, oh yeah, we're like, all of his songs would come to him, like in this, yeah, where you'd be in a great mood and they would just start to finish, they would come, and all he had to do was kind of write them out. And now that was

everyone believe that was a kind of for sure, but it's literally fake, and I worked his ass off, probably like you do, like just, yeah, I mean, maybe once in a while, you're stuck at a red light and you like get the seed of an idea that's quite a good idea, sure. I don't know you, but I'm guessing like most of the comedy you write, you're like sitting there, like thinking about it and like making it a little bit better and a little bit better again and

“yeah, getting pissed off with it and thrown it away, and you know, that's how great creators create,”

they just work, yeah. That's talent and all that stuff. It's not like anybody could be Mozart, sure. But even Mozart had to be like writing things down, crossing them out, you just have to play something, listen to it now, that's good, that's not good. That's how everybody does it. Yeah, that's kind of, you know, when you come to discover it's like it really is like, you know, if you want to do something cool in any capacity, usually it's just like you

have to trade your time, like if to trade tons of time and just deal with stuff that like sucks, yeah, so bad and just keep plotting through. Yeah, whereas I do think there's, yeah, if there's a thought where it's like, I can just link into the AI, feed it prompts and it's like, I don't, I don't think it's going to produce. And that's why sucks to be like on a deadline or in a hurry. Yeah, because you kind of need luxury to be like, yeah, I spent a week on this, but it sucks.

I don't want to, well, I'm going to have startup. Yeah, and so if you, if you don't have that luxury, you've got to go with the thing that sucks, right? Yeah, through that. So, so about the book, we got the story of stories. Where do you, when do you kind of like, you know, because you were talking about things, what made you, what prompted you to switch to thinking about stories? Oh, well, it's like, I was, so we talked about smartphones. And like, this year, about 90% of the people in the

world, in the world, own a smartphone. Okay. And that's like 15% of those people are like us in advanced economies. We maybe had computers before that, TVs and telephones and all that stuff. But

the other like 75% of people, they never had any of that stuff. So you've gone from like not owning a

telephone, you know, watching a TV that 10 other families watch on the corner of the street, to having a smartphone in your pocket. Yeah. So the beginning of the story of stories was like, well, what does that mean? Like, how does that change things? And, you know, the way it changes

Right? If you have a good story, like you can put it on the internet, on Facebook or whatever, and if people start sharing it like very quickly, like it can kind of go all the way around the

world, that's never been true. Like, your storytelling started about a million years ago,

because we invented fire. Yeah. So we invented fire. And about the similar time, alcohol, drugs, and cooking. So you're sitting around a fire. What else is there to do after you've

“eaten some food, gotten drunk, gotten high. Right? You start shooting the shit. Yeah. So that's how”

language happened. Right? Language didn't give us story stories gave us language. So you know, you're a million years ago, you're like your long way human ancestors. And you're only now had like, you know, say, or there's a pioneer over there, or let's have sex, right? You've got a few kind of barky sound. But gradually, you've got to use sound, because you can't see because it's fire light. So gradually, over a long period of time, you know, you evolved to get good at talking,

yeah, about tomorrow, or something you remember, or like where the stars maybe came from, or whatever, right? So storytelling is what made us human, right? And at that time, like, it was like you could talk to like five guys, you know, your buddies around fire, right? But then you get like, maybe drawing, like you can draw on the wall of a cave or something, people can see it, like, even after you die, then you get stuff like singing. So it makes it really easy to remember a story,

and then, of course, you know, writing, printing, all the way through to like smartphones and AI. It's, it's stories all the way down, right? So the minute I was like, the thumb does it mean that everyone's got a smartphone. You know, I kind of went backwards, like I sat down the rabbit hole and ended up with, well, it's, it's all stories. You know, the way to tell the story of what's happening now, that when it's arguing about whether this is true or that is true or this conspiracy theory or whatever,

that's really being enabled by smartphones, right? It's all storytelling. Storytelling is deep in our brains, because it evolved with us. Yeah. So that's where the story of stories came from. I mean, this is like, I'm kind of a slow thinker. I like have to read fucking everything, and it takes ages, but to like, you know, settle in and make sense. And like, Chase Square was a kind of rabbit hole, so I like up in the morning, like, how did I get here? But the point was like, what does

it mean about the smartphones, basically? Yeah. And then one thing leads to another, you end up with

“the story of stories, because that's the only way I figured out how to answer the question.”

So what did you, what did you, uh, what in terms of like a prescriptive, I guess, if you have one, what do you think the answer to that question is in terms of like, where it'll go or like, how do you

handle yourself in a world where like, you have a million people telling you a million stories?

And so you've got to feel like the deep fake stuff, and, you know, it's coming down the pipe. I mean, I think as a couple, I, I, I can't really do prescriptions like, I, but what I, what I think is, um, we've got to understand that stories are really integral to how we think about the world. Like some people think of stories that like, I read a book, I saw a movie. Yeah. But yeah, stand up comedy, a storytelling, right? This conversation is storytelling, right? Most of

what we do is storytelling one way or another. Yeah, and the thing I'm starting to, the time from the book that really, you know, I think is cool is the, uh, kind of the idea of like, you know, how you're in, majority, oh, I guess maybe the whole entire thing of your identity is literally just you telling stories or continuous stories like the person you are. And to be, and it's like, you know, you're, you're saying to like how you're all yourselves, basically die, yeah, except for your eyeballs

and like the, just a little bit at least a point in your brain. Yeah, like a couple of little, that's crazy.

“That's the only thing of your whole lifetime that lives the entire, they sell, don't die.”

Just you have your original eyeballs and your little like lizard stand in your brain. Yeah. Everything else dies comes back. Yeah. Yeah, okay. That's what we'll make it through. So, and I do get that because there's like, okay, that's fair. So, like your physical form is actually kind of coming and going. And the thing that's actually sustained is the story you're telling yourself. The only caveat is that there is a form like a shape to your physical cells and stuff.

That's the one thing that does, well, actually, you know, it doesn't, because then you grow and you. I mean, you went boom, I'm like, I'm like, this man. Actually, I came out exactly. I came out a hundred ninety two pounds. Like, no, that's fair. That's the, yeah, okay. Yeah, so, and then you can also alter your form. So, you know, I'm wrong. So, that is kind of cool to think of like, I was like reading it last night. Kind of, first of all,

bugging out about people's telling stories a million years ago over fire, which was just like, like,

ugh, just like, groaning noises to each other. And how that becomes basically, you know, that's evolved into where, like, literally that's how you experience yourself as who you are through stories and the thing that I really like too is like stories being vehicles of, like, shame and glory, delivery systems or it's like, you tell, it happens all the time. The news is like, the number one thing where it's like, it's like, it's a giant shape, mostly a shame apparatus where it's like,

this person piece of shit, they suck, and it's, you know, and you're listening, you're like,

And that's, that's just story shaped brain. Yeah. So you've got to understand, like, that's,

that's not how the world actually is. Everybody's kind of like a bit good and a bit bad, and some people are really quite bad, and some people are really quite good. And then we, we think in terms of heroes and villains, just because of all that stuff around the fire site, right? You know, because we're shooting the shit around the fire site, getting high. Well, we're the heroes. Those guys over there, they're the villains. Yeah. Yeah. That's just how the brain works. So, like,

understanding that is one thing. Like, you're, you're understanding of the world is like 99.9% based on stories that you have heard. Yeah. And most of those stories were based on stories that the person who told you the story had heard. And so on, but very little, what we know, we know through

our eyes and ears and so on, right? Yeah. It's be told it. That's unique about humans. So you've got to

“be really, I think, just like you might think about the food that you eat, right? You kind of”

got to be a little bit picky about what stories you expose yourself to. Yeah. But also, then, like, don't just take him a face value. You know, especially if it's something you want to believe. Yeah. Like, if someone tells you your hero as a hero, you might, that might be the best time to be, like, well, I'm going to think about that a little bit harder, because there may be another angle here. You know, and this is a challenge, like, because the story of stories kind of the first wave of it,

is this one person can tell stories to five people to now, everybody can tell stories to everybody, right? That's kind of the end of that first wave. But what we're seeing now is, like, is this story real? Right? Because throughout human history, like, you know, you look at this painting, like, we know that's the painting. We know that's not actually a naked woman, certain, right? Yeah. But as we move into this world of, like, ever increasing screen revolution, so it looks

more and more three dimensional, ever better AI deep fake technology within a reach of point, sometimes soon, when you actually can't tell, yeah, are you looking out of a window kind of thing,

or are you being told a story? Like, how real is it, how fake is it? And that critical thinking,

we already need to be like, is someone bullshitting me right now? Sure. It's got to get a lot sharper. But what I want to do is not to get a lot of students. The master-writer, "Laptop, you're soft, you're the internet, so you're a master-writer." I'm saying, you can say that you're a hero. You're a hero, right? But you're not a hero. Exactly. It's just a philosophy. You're just doing it with this story. And when you then work,

you're going to be "catching". That's right. Save. This story. Hold it, then go back. Now, you're going to try it out. So-called "fresh" music. That's all for today.

“A lot of especially with the Epstein files, because I think that is going to follow”

whatever the next election, like the presidential election. I think that's going to be weaponized to try to take people trying to take their opponents down with that, which is like, okay, fair enough. But then it's like, we'll be in a place now where you can be accused of horrible stuff as a politician. There could be a video and you'd be like, that's a deep fake. You see that already, right? Like, yeah. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't see every year was accused of gassing its population or something.

And like, there was a video. It's like, oh yeah, that's all AI. You know, yeah. That's a bullshit, but it gets common. And, you know, I mean, people in Epstein, I mean, you know, raping kids is bad. Those people suck because they'll go to jail. I'm totally for that. But yeah, I mean, just on the story of story side of it, the Epstein files exist because of email. Yeah. And there's so much like, like, you know, this, like,

"Trace, police brutality stuff that we hear about now." Like, that's not new, but you get to see a video of it. Like, right now, there's like 10 small phones pointing at it. And they're on the internet, like, immediately. Yeah. So, yeah, there's good and bad with this new technology. We're getting this paper trail. Like, are the Epstein emails fake? We kind of know they're not, right? 'Cause they just, they look real, right? And there's so many of them. So, but at some

point, yeah, you're going to be showing a cell phone video. What's happens now? Like, look, what this, you know, this person did. It's going to be BS. Yeah, I saw a video of a bombing recently, we were, like, literally the cars just, like, flew up in the air. And I was like, damn, it was in, like, the Middle East. And that, it's, like, 10 people, like, this is AI, not true. And it's, like, fuck. It's kind of weird. You could generally find some expo online now.

“There's, like, who couldn't explain it? That can get it. This is, or isn't real. Yeah, I think,”

I know, um, yeah, I think Netflix has a thing where they, they actually screened. If you give them something, they'll run it through a filter to determine how much AI is in it. Oh, there's too much AI. They're, like, we can't use this. I was watching a video yesterday.

when you did your game. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, they video themselves, but like, they analyzed,

like, the mouse movement. And they realized that the mouse hand was, like, kind of superimposed. And it wasn't there either. Really? Yeah. So, that messed up already happening. But this is a scandal. I don't, I don't, I don't know what he hearing about this.

“Oh, it's a YouTube man. Tell us everything you need to know. But there's, there's,”

again, good and bad, right? You can use this technology for, like, cheating. There's another guy who can use the technology to tell about your cheating? Yeah. Yeah. It's true. And that's what I wonder too, because, again, with, with the, you know, if we go into a realm of just, like, political deep fakes, you don't know what's real, what's not. It's, like, literally genuinely impossible to tell. I wonder if, you know, because there is, like, a desire for, like, the truth,

like, especially with the Epstein stuff, or whatever's going on. Yeah. I want to know exactly what happened. Yeah. But then it's, like, I wonder if people want that kind of access to the truth, if there's going to be some trade-off, or it's like, all right, we're all going to, like, divulge everything about each other, like, you know, live, get more, all on camera 24/7. That way, we have, like, we have the truth if we need it. I think everyone would be like, no, I mean,

I'm all right, I don't know. Instagram filters are there for a reason, right? Yeah. If face to, you know, nobody wants, they want to make you think that's what, yeah, real. But yeah,

there's, I mean, there's never any proof of anything like there's only evidence. Yeah.

And we have to be, you know, we already are, because our brains have built this way, but we have to be smart and awake about, it's just evidence. Real, it's evidence, add up to the story. Someone's trying to tell me why they're trying to tell me this story. Because it's the other thing, like, if anybody's ever telling you a story, even, like, in conversation, like, they, literally, really, they've gotten the gender. It's not like neutral or objective. They're like,

they want to get a second date, or they want to make you laugh, or they want to impress you, or they don't want you to find out what you did, but they did or something, right? Yeah. Always. That's not a bad thing. That's just the way of the world. So you've got to be kind of on to like, is this bullshit? Yeah, and that's, no, for sure. And it's hard, you know, that's kind of a hard thing to do. Because I feel like a huge part of that is like taking

yourself out of the equation as much as possible. It's usually like, what version of this makes

“me look the best and it's like, well said, yeah, that's, I think that's what happened. You know,”

it's hard to like be aware enough to not do that. But even with like the, again, with the ups and stuff, it's like, like you said, obviously child rapists are horrible. Horrible, horrible thing should be punished, you know, beyond even whatever they get. But then the thing I've saw is like, it becomes very, almost, I don't know, of trendy's the word to be like, to ramp it up to the point where it's like, we're now controlled. People like, I'm sure of this by pedophiles, entirely,

who are like eating kids and it's like, and again, it's proof that it's like, obviously punish that person. But the thing I worry about is like, you do get a charge, like whenever you talk about something like somebody being bad makes you feel good in some way. We're like, that's a piece of shit. And you know, it's like, how much of it is like, you know, like, if they're a fucking pedophile, cannibalistic pedophiles, obviously fucking punish them. But it's like, what if that's not as

true as you think? And like, what is that weird ego charge you're getting, being like, these fucking pieces, and they're like, they're getting to control the entire world. It's like, maybe, here are some films. Yeah. Yeah. That's the one kind of thing that I get a little hit. And it, but it sucks. It's like, what are you sticking off? It's like, no, not at all. Like,

“again, if you catch somebody doing that, like, do whatever you have to do, but it's like,”

when you, there's like a, there's this thing where you rumenate on it, endlessly, where you're like, what are you, what are you getting out of that? It's kind of sick on both sides. I think it is storytelling again. Like, because like, you know, you've got the piece-to-gate thing, like, this blood-sucking Hillary Clinton or whatever, that was about, like, that's a story. That's like a movie. Like, good conspiracy theories are kind of like good movies, right? Well, the other way around,

like, real life, even with these heinous crimes, the other thing about the Epstein files, is kind of how tacky it is. You know, these people are like cheesy. They're kind of cringy. It's not like an action movie or yes. It's like, you know, it's what they're doing is horrible. And, but also like, they're just like having these tacky kind of email exchanges. Really? Yeah, that's the one that you held, Dorky. Oh, I'm addicted to Jay, I'm like, no, I missed my,

you guys do the right there. Really? Seriously? Oh, shit. Sorry, sorry, that guy. But like, what the fuck? I've been making fun of Jayey withdrawals as soon as I heard it. Yeah, like, ah, man. Have you looked in the Epstein files for yourself? I have that. No, I have. I'm not in there.

I never knew the guy or anything, but like, he was hanging around MIT when I was so, you know,

there's plenty of people who are like, but he loves, he loves science. Oh, yeah, there's a list of like, you know, names or people present presenting at something. But yeah, I always, I don't think I was on his radar. Thank God. Yeah, that was the other thing for the guys. Well, again, there's convenience kind of not very well. Yeah, that's the, yeah, that's the one thing where it's like, you're totally right. You know, it's like, we have to recognizing how deeply stories kind of

Especially, I know myself as I have my own biases. Like, if I read a thing and I'm starting to get

“pissed, I have to like train myself to be like, relax or I'll feel myself, I'll be reading an article.”

And I'm like, this better not be fucking true. And I'll start right away to get a part automatically. That's the emotion, right? That's the emotion and truth. Yeah, it's like, oh, I'm feeling something. Yep. That's really good to note. But it's hard not to be like, fuck yeah, that's possibly what I can write. Yeah, I'm going to fucking share this. I'm coming. I'm not actually going to like read the article because I just saw the headline. Yeah.

Well, that's, and that's my thing too, though, with on the flip side of the conspiracy stuff, it's like, you have some people to be like, if something even sounds outlandish, they go, well, this is as a crazy. It's like it could be true, too. I don't know. But it's like, I,

you know, I don't know either way. It could totally, that was the thing about the island of

pedophiles was out 10 years ago, and everyone was like, you're out of your fucking mind. And it was true. Yeah. So it's like, you know, that's the one thing where I try to just like,

“stay as neutral as possible, where I'm not like, you know, hoping it's true or hoping it's not,”

or it's like, maybe it is, maybe like, you know, you mentioned COVID in the book. That was the, that was a great example of like, you know, because again, like, I, my family was just kind of like, whatever, we'll just live life as we see fit and they'd seem fine. And then I would hear people like their half their family would die. And it was like, it was crazy. You know, it's kind of nuts. You know, that's, that's the thing about stories. It's like, this is really

serious. It's like, it changes how we behave. Like, you know, if you believe the Loch Ness Monster is real, like, doesn't really matter. You know, it's not, there's not a dinosaur in a Scottish lake, but like, you're not hurting anybody, but leaving that, you're not hurting yourself by believing it. But the minute you're like, you know, I don't know, Jewish people are like, pedophile, sucking blood. I'm going to like, you know, go, go yell at a mask, or like, I'm not going to take the colors.

You just act like you're just as serious. Oh, right. You're just people. It was as that, like,

“words, yeah, I know. And that's, that's the, if you want to yourself or somebody else, that's”

a bad story. Yeah. And especially, yeah, exactly. And especially again, it's like, just the awareness of being like, what are the odds that, like, you know, I am the one who's like the good one, I'm the good guy and everyone else is the bad guy. Yeah. You know, and it's like, again, it's such a case by case basis where it's like, I could confidently look at Jeffrey Epstein ago. Yeah, I'm good compared to that guy, you know, but it's like, when you start like grouping

in thousands and hundreds of thousands of people and being like, I know what they're all about, you know, it gets kind of done. Oh, this is, this is the identity being a story. You tell yourself, right? Like, yeah. Yep. Jeffrey Epstein is his heinous pedophile. Yeah. And God knows what else, like, you know, briding blackmailing, whatever the hell he was doing. But that doesn't change who you are, like, one inch. Yeah. You're not a better person because he was an asshole. Just like,

you're not, you're not, you're more of an asshole because like there's some other dude. He's like, you know, that's a deportingly low bar. They're not telling what I don't do. I don't, you know, roast kids and eat them and, you know, yeah, that's, that is kind of a sad thing to get a charge arm relapsed. Yeah. Any story where, like, you're the hero. Someone else is the villain.

Yeah. I mean, it always makes me laugh. Like, you know, you're an Eagles fan, right? You're

like, every time you go to a football game, like, the ref makes a call. And if it's for your team, he loves a ref. It's awesome. Like, the first time I watched a football game, like, I'd only just come to a US. I didn't understand football very well. And I was like, in a bar, it was a snowball game. Like, it was Patriots versus Oakland. And like, Brady had like, what, looked like a fumble. Yeah. And they said, oh, no, he's hand with it. It was a talk room. Yeah. Yeah. And then,

you know, Patriots went on to win the Super Bowl for the first time ever. And like, Boston, like, yeah, that's, that was great refereeing right there. That was exact. The rest of the world, like, fuck that. But you know, damn well, if that's been the Eagles quarterback, if that been Donovan McNabb, yeah, that would have been a great call. Exactly. If you know, it would have that little, I don't know. It's totally true. You're like, no, actually, yeah, that's totally fair.

Heroes and villains every time. Yeah. Especially the big thing, too, is like, you know, the in a marriage. It's like, I can easily spin a yarn in my head or my wife is completely out to ruin my entire life. Hate me is genuinely evil. And then literally 10 minutes go by. And I was like, how is being kind of a dick? Yeah, I thought I needed a sandwich. Yeah. It was also like post-break up, right? Like, your friends are like, oh, she was, yeah, you know, and the girlfriend's like,

he was an ass. And it's like, you know, at any time, anytime you're the hero, one else is the villain, you're really sure about that. That's probably when they're, their lawn bells need to ring. Yes, that'll be an interesting, you know, I'll be curious to see how people, you know, what they do internally to kind of navigate the landscape. Because I do feel like people are starting to catch on and like relax and not get as triggers. Even like 10 years ago, people, you know, we were

like hitting each other with trash canlets in the streets. And like it was, people were pretty

I, I like to think a lot of the younger people I talk to, like, you know, early 20s, almost take

like an ironic kind of stance towards a lot of the political, like getting heated. Yeah. And generally, I don't know if you've ever, there's a, there's a, there's a, they have Instagram video, John recalled rage bait. We're just like young 20 year olds will walk up to a, you know, about like 56 year old guy and they're like, what's up, pussy? And it's like, and they're filming it with medical asses. And this guy is like, yeah, I have to fight you now. And they're almost

just making fun of this whole idea that like anyone can be triggered by words to like, yeah, that's that. That's especially a thing in the south. It's like, oh, it's on this. Like, I forget what they call it, but like, some of the guys are raised like, if anybody like looks at you funny, yeah, that's like, that's fight and talk, right? Whereas in like other parts of the US, it's like, I didn't give a shit quite so much. Some of that again, it's the stories you get told

about who you're supposed to be. Yeah. Yeah. Even on these coasts, I remember like, you know,

people, I remember I was in Tulsa recently and, you know, Matt, Matt the bar and we're hanging out after the show. And there was this kid who had come to the show and he's, you know, he's just hammering. He's talking to me. Oh, oh, oh, oh. And it was just like this black dude sitting at the bar and he've reached over, grabbed the dude's head and went, ah, and shook his head. And I was just like, this guy's gonna fucking punch you in the face because it's like, you know, if I were to do that

“to it, just like a random black dude in Philly, they would, I 100% I think, 99.9, they would fight”

me. It's literally like, you just can't do that. And this guy and I was like, and I like it's sort of almost like interceding on his behalf, like he's hitting the guy. I was like, oh, he's just having fun, man. And I was like, and you know, it's not even if it was a white guy, it's a similar thing, but it's kind of like, how you're not fighting, right? I couldn't understand it. I was like, I would really be fighting, but they're, I mean, they're chill people in Philly too. There are,

but it's not that many, you know, and if that had been a bar, it's someone grabs someone's head and shook it violently like that. In Philadelphia, and again, just regardless of race, it would have been, I would have said 80% chance of some sort of at least verbal, it would have been a 100% chance of verbal altercation words, like what the fuck are you doing? Yeah, my money. That age group, too. Oh, yeah. Oh, talking like 50, 60, maybe 20, I was probably a fighter, like he probably could have

like killed the guy. He just was like, he's having a good time there. I tell you, if you're in a situation where you guys confrontation or what, and there's one guy who's like really chill. Yeah. Yeah, true. He's like the MMA guy, you know. Yeah, you know, I'm not trying to be racist, obviously, and black people will fight you if you touch it. Well, actually, no, that's kind of true, though. If you touch your heads, they spat. So stand by this statement. That's my head. It doesn't sound good.

I do that too, like, I don't, because people touch my face, I don't like that at all, from London. Like yeah, fuck off. Yeah, you can't touch my head, but that was, that is, yeah, I don't know.

“That was just something that I remember that made me laugh, because I remember I, like,”

intercede it on a level where the guy was like, I'm worried about it. Relax, man. Like, you don't need to do all this. And I was like, well, maybe your set had made that guy so chill. I don't think it's like I was at the show. Oh, I don't think he was just a chill. He might have been the chillest guy, but I think it is just like, and I was asking people from there. And they were like, yeah, man, like, you know, we just, we fuck around this time. No one's that wound

up around here and Tulsa, like to that extent. And I was like, well, that's a lot different. I'm not used to that. So, yeah, man. So, what else? So, you just, you got the book, what's the book coming out? Choose that. Choose that. Yeah. Big day. Okay. So, we'll hold this, we'll hold this. We'll have this come out. Maybe Dave. I'll do it. We'll say. I'll be nice. And, uh, what's on the horizon now, man? So, you know,

you kind of, what are you looking to do? Because I, you know, I had you pegged as like a complete technologist, you know, technologist kind of in terms of like, not some, I thought you were like a diehard computer guy. And you're more of just like a curious kind of where will things go go.

“Yeah. So, where do you think yourself? Could you predict where yourself where you're going to go?”

I hope no. What's your plan? Every few years, like I'm amazed at what's going on. I'm going to like that. But like I'm working on a new book. Nice. Um, you know, I put writing this book. I've got into calisthenics. There we go. You know, you know, you're my planch and all that stuff. Bloody hard. So, yeah, that's me. I'm, you know, trying to get my kids to pay me attention now that they're in the 20s. What's that like?

I have a three to five of it. Oh, yeah, even imagine. Yeah, they can't either. Like I said to my daughter when she was 12. You know, when you turned 13, you want to hang out with me?

Well, she said no, Daddy. I would never feel like that. And like, yeah, you get a text once and

why. Which is great. It means they're independent. They're doing their own true, true. I mean, they're very impressed that like I'm coming on here. Yeah. Like two of my three. Really? Two of my three. I said, I've been invited on this thing. I don't know what it is. I'm like, oh my God, two of my three kids have met Shane. Nice. One of them has a picture. The one from Spirly. She sent me a picture. Hell yeah. I said, I'm like, oh, okay, you know,

so my kids will be in touch with me about this. So thank you. Nice. That's like, for once, they're in prayer. Oh, they're going to call you. The book coming out on matter. Oh,

I'll do it. Thank you for coming. The book's called The Story of Stories.

Kevin Ashton. Appreciate you. Thanks for having me. All right. I'm not the piece my past.

“Watch new episodes of Matt and Shane secret podcast on Spotify. Do it.”

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