They Turned Real Estate Into Wealth, But Still Feel Stuck | Making a Millionaire

Is Rula State a job for you? Or is it, hey, part of our financial life is that we have some Rula State properties?

“Because those are two very different things, right? How do you want to approach it and how do you want to attack that?”

So I met manufacturing engineer in the aerospace industry ten years now, and is that me like building plans? I like to say it's we as a manufacturing engineer, we build the Lego assembly set, you know, that that, that, you know, gives the instructions from the design to the operator. Okay. So it's really cool stuff. And how about you? So I managed a team of associate recruiters for like a tech-enabled search firm that's based out of Chicago full-time remote, but doing it for almost five years now.

And we specialize in like high-impact placements and executive recruiting. So we've worked for anyone like dude wipes to pelletize. Oh, wow. Software companies that you didn't have heard of, but are doing very well. Top off is a client of ours. That's awesome.

It is, it is fun. You even do that for five years? Yeah, and I'm, I manage a team internally. So I kind of like more ops people management. I love it. So you, you guys have an 18 month old little boy in home. How old are you guys? I'm 35. 35.

34, go on on 35. 34, go on on 35. That's kind of that progression. That's totally, that's totally, that's totally different. I can say 34 aren't there, that's great.

Well, it's interesting, you know, you guys were kind enough to share a network statement with us. And I'll be honest when I saw it, I was like, holy cow. Do you guys feel like you're way out ahead of the curve and crushing it? How do you guys feel about your current situation? So when we really started looking at this, we pieced it all together and realized where we were.

And it, yeah, it was eye opening for sure. I don't think we expected it to be as high as it was. And, but I, I feel like we've been very diligent about it, you know, in the past couple of years.

“So, yeah, I think it's, well, how long have you all been together?”

Because you? So we've been married for about three years now.

Okay, and is this the, doing this exercise? Was this the first network statement you've done?

Oh, like a fully comprehensive network statement, yes. Okay. Mixed around the numbers on the back end, but yeah, we met during COVID to say he's my COVID cutie. All right. And we loved that.

Our first day was virtual. Yeah, amazing. But yeah, we've been working, but it hasn't felt like we've, like, we've felt like we've reached more of a tipping point. And the last, what's a six months when things started accumulating a little bit more. And we felt like, oh, we need to talk to someone and figure out what our next steps are because the decisions we make.

Could lead us in a direction pretty significantly at this point. Yeah. Well, when we look at the network statement, you can see that you guys have absolutely crushed it. Now, it's interesting to be married for three years. So, sounds like both of you had some success before you got together.

I'd love to talk about that. But as it stands right now, total now worth of almost $821,000. Like rapidly approaching the two comic club in your mid 30s, which is insane. And a very healthy household income, you make almost $300,000 a year, $276,000. And so not only do you have a big income, but what's like you've been able to turn a big income into wealth?

“How do you guys do it? Like, what was the, what was the secret sauce?”

You said you've reached the tipping point. What were you doing before you got to the tipping point? So, I think we were pretty diligent on like our savings rate. You know, definitely, you know, even before knowing, you know, the 25%.

You know, it was how high could we go? And not always, but certainly in my late 20s.

And let's say for the past six, seven years. But I think for Becca, I might have been most of your luck. I've always been safer and I've always been a worker. So, like the day I turned, well, the day I turned 15 was able to work. I walked into Burger King was like, I need a job.

And then, why not? One of my first, like financial memories really is of like, just watching my parents be very frugal in different ways, but both frugal. And my mom's saying, like, well, hey, you get your paycheck. That's not all yours today. You have to pay yourself for tomorrow.

So, like, at least half of that should be saved. And so, when I entered, that's been, I've always had a job. I've never not had a job, even when I was full time in school was working as well.

And when I got my first, like, more professional job post-grad school,

that started my career, we'll say. At one point, like, the financial person that, our account, it was like, do you know how much you're saving? So, because it wasn't normal, right? It was like, probably 20% at that time.

And that's why. For like a young person, that's why. Exactly, that's why I'm low. I do, actually, and I'm going to keep it that way, you know? So, it was interesting. She's like, not financial advice,

but I just wanted to make sure, you know, some people save, and then don't realize it's not vested. Like, it was kind of that conversation, but on the other side of the spectrum.

that, hey, if I save and be a little bit for tomorrow,

it stacks up pretty quickly. So, who's the person that's kind of driving all of the financial decisions in the house? Who's like the financial person, or y'all both, or y'all, like, collaborating on everything?

He's the spreadsheets guy, more so, and more, of, like, crunching the numbers. Like, he says that, I mean, he's tried to do, like, network statements and stuff like that before, and, like, trying to calculate when we could potentially go

into co-spire, or something. For me, I'm much more of the person, like, what's the impact on our family? And what is our lifestyle, actually?

“What does it look like now, and what is it going to look like?”

And I think, especially since having our son, that was kind of, like, the shifting point for us, because we manage real estate, and we do it all ourselves, like, we don't contract out most of the stuff. And I'm like, this is taking into a lot of time,

and our priorities have shifted a little bit. So, yeah. Yeah, and I think, yeah, so that's where we're here now, we have fairly tight margins on our real estate properties. So, we both bought them before we were married as, like,

you know, owner-occupant, multi-families, and decided when we got married, we would buy single-family, and keep both properties, and still manage the self-manage, right? So, it's kind of like, now we're looking at it,

and we do a lot of the work ourselves. How much is it, you know, helping support our journey on, you know, financial dependence? Or not, you know, and we think it is, but, you know, this is where we'd like your take on, you know, on that.

So, you both lived in your own houses, and you got married, got a y'all's house, and you just held onto the houses that you had. Yeah, yeah. So, he bought his in 2020.

It's a quadplex, so it's four units. Oh, wow. And he lived in one, yeah. So, there's a lot of multi-family real estate in St. Louis. Okay.

And so, he has a quadplex. I have a duplex. There are now, I know. Yeah.

“Oh, both house-hack, did they both lived in part of it?”

So, yes. Oh, y'all were like, prodigies. Good for you guys.

He had his first, and I had just moved back,

January 2020 from Michigan, which was a very expensive market, and I was single at the time, and I was like, I can't afford to live here, so when I moved back to Missouri, to be closer to my twin,

I decided, like, I'm gonna rent for a year, and then I'm gonna buy. And I wanted multi-family so bad. I was actually going for a quadplex, but it was crazy COVID times,

and they were just getting swooped up. So, I ended up buying a duplex, and occupying it to like house-hacking. He moved in there with me for a little bit. Brief time.

And then we bought our single family. Yeah. You mentioned their first date. I started talking about commonality, and interest and started to get started.

I started talking about it. Newplex and quadplexes and house-hacking. I mean, I just almost said, "I'm sure bird chirps." Yeah.

“You know, in heart-sounds starting playing in the background.”

Maybe you're going to be absolutely absolutely happy. Yeah. We've had experience with, you know, in the past with, you know, our relationships. We've learned, you know, we really learned what we wanted in life.

What kind of partner we would want in life. And we, yeah, absolutely. That's very true. Yeah. We realized we click.

This is it. Oh, the lead of the apps. So, when we look at the network statement, obviously, eight hundred and twenty thousand-dollar network. Well, all of that we have about five hundred and thirty thousand dollars

of liquid assets of state savings. But no, I don't talk about that. But the real estate is a pretty big portion. If you look at just the value of the assets that you have for real estate, it's like eight hundred and fifteen thousand dollars

with debt on that real estate of a little under six hundred thousand. Look at those interest rates. Wow. Haga, Haga. Well, two, two, three, you're Haga.

On the rental property. I mean, you don't have to be feeling pretty good about those. Yeah. The rental property number two, the two point seven five is the duplex. And that's actually the one we might be considering selling.

Mm-hmm. And I'm like, ooh, that two point seven five is so nice. Well, walk us through. Because you said you have some questions, right? Because I'm sure for a lot of people out there hearing this,

like, holy cow, these two are killing it. Network is amazing. They have a duplex. They have a quadplex. They have the primary residence.

What possible issue could they have? What could they be worrying about? So walk us through. What are the questions you have? I'm both.

Time is the issue. Time is the issue. So we have pretty tight margins and Christian could get a little bit more into the numbers there. But we, so for our properties, all most of them, we have six units all together. Five of the units are long-term rentals.

And one is a midterm Airbnb. So for the Airbnb, for example, like most of the time tenants will stay from two months to sometimes six or nine months. But we flip it every time. We're going in cleaning after tenant that's us. If a pipe burst, I'm the one helping manage contractors most of the time because I work from home.

And we'd screen all of our own tenants.

We, like, I'm basically the general contractor managing work that needs to be done.

Are you good at that? Or have you been burned?

But not without help. I'm a part of like a women's investor community in St. Louis. It's very strong. Oh, yeah. Super resourceful.

“So I honestly, like, if I need a plumber, the first thing I do is go on to our shared Facebook page and”

either ask or like search for if anyone's got recommendations because recommendations go along way. And this is for sure. Sure. Sure. Sure.

You can get burned. And so I've had some mentors to help along the way in that regard. But it's still a lot of time that goes into it. Probably spend, I don't know. It depends on if there's a project happening.

But probably five hours a week or something.

So nothing crazy, but it's never planned.

But you still work. You both work full time. Yes. So you're working full time. And this is an additional.

Yeah, additional thing ever. But exactly. We, yeah. So I think we, you know, we make, you know, positive margins on these properties. And so we see that and we see that, you know, we're paying off our mortgages diligently.

Our equity is raising. And, you know, we know it's going to help in the end with our financial independence journey. You know, to break away from traditional, you know, work environments in the future. But, you know, how, how is it compared to our traditional retirement investments? Sure.

Is it something we should swap focus on or not? And we could give you the numbers, like specifically in the real estate. Yeah. So I'd love to hear a little bit about about the numbers in the margins. Because where my mind is immediately going is like, okay, you have this issue.

You would have enough time. But you have resources. What was the thought between you guys self managing this and not having a management company or not outsourcing that? So it felt very simple when we started by owning them, right?

Like, if something happened, I could do it. You live there, right? It's good. Talk to some. And then there's obviously some tax write-offs implications to that too.

“And so that's why we chose to self manage.”

I had thought maybe that I could transition from a full-time W2 to managing property. So for example, we need some renovations on our quadplex. It's got four units and two sides or two units are very outdated.

And so we basically have to do probably put four units of $50,000 into each unit

to bring it up to current market. Current market, exactly. And so I actually think that would be a fun project to take on. But it sounds horrendous when you think about working a full-time W2 and doing that. And so, but we like it.

Like, I work from home full-time remote. I manage a team. So I do talk to people. But I actually love that I know who my tough pointer is for brickwork. I've got a roofer.

I mean, I think for us, he's not from St. Louis originally. But for me, like, we've all had our share of, like, slummy kind of landlords. And I think we pride ourselves in, like, being not being sure. Not being sure, being a service to the community. And that way too.

Like, if I sold, I mean, obviously money matters. You know, I'm not going to get super undercut. But like, I would love if it was someone who was owner-occupying and also lived in that space. You know? So there's a values piece there.

I would love to know some more numbers.

Because there's a few things that jumped out to me is that, first of all, with rental property,

sometimes one rental property is a pain in the rear. Because you have to deal with it. But you'll have five to six because you've done, so you start. It's not scale is not the proper word, but you'll least got enough coming through. And then I'll look at, and I'll look at what Charles Barrier,

I mean, your price to entry was with the debt and stuff. So I need to know the numbers to know the hassle factor. Why is it taking so much time? Is this something we can borrow out of? Because, and then also, you're kind of talking about both sides of your mouth a little bit.

No, because- Well, no, because- I'm not picking on you, but I just want to just give you the feedback. That's why we're here. Because you tell me we have no time to do this.

But then out of your breath, you're also like, but I love. Can we tell you about my brick layer that I have in my Rolex, and that I can reach out to you? I mean, you're kind of giving both both sides.

“So that's what it makes me immediately wonder.”

Because I have, you know, what's funny is I have some property down in Florida. And my real estate agent also now kind of helps me manage the property as well as she's fabulous. And that's why, so, you know, I'm wondering if there's not an image between here, but I don't want to jump right there until we know more of your data sets. So we'll start. I don't know where you want.

So like, just going back 30,000 feet, I would say we make money on the quadplex and then we kind of break even on the duplex. Okay. And that's a product of scale, right? We've got four units on that side and two on the other. And then also last year was a very expensive year for me for the duplex.

We're placed a roof and was actually in the red. So, but I'll go. So in a normal year, you break it on the duplex last year, you were under. But a roof is more of a capital expenditure because you have to get it. I mean, hopefully we'll get 20 years out of it.

Yeah, yeah. So I mean, yes, you're in the red, but if you think about it from an accounting standpoint, you made a big capital investment into it. It's not necessarily just operations.

So like, you'll see, we're pretty conservative. When we like, when it's good for us, we're conservative on the low end, right? When it's bad for us, we're conservative on the high end. And so you'll see that in these numbers. So negative from a cash flow, you're right, probably from a cash flow.

But I'm just thinking and analyzing the venture, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. And we did buy them to buy them and hold on to them for like, we thought like, maybe 20 years. Like, when real, when our son goes to school, do we just sell one and have that help pay for his school? Or, you know, if we really like diversifying and being, you know, in it. But so, are, do you want to know like what's owed on it and the potential equity and all those numbers?

Well, I've got those standards. We have those. I'd love to know the rents you come in or the net margin you have on these right now. So starting with the duplex, the rent we get is about 25,000 dollars a year. And mortgage payments, including like principal interest tax insurance, all that stuff, is like 17, 7.

So basically, you get in a thousand dollars a month per unit on the duplex.

Okay. So that's 17k is mortgage taxes insurer and all that kind of stuff. And then average operating expenses over the last three years, I averaged them was like 11,000 dollars.

“There's another, there's another thing you have to do, right?”

Yeah. If you just include your whole mortgage payment, you're kind of, you're, you're double counting, right? Because part of your mortgage every month is paying down some prints. So it's not really a cost that's kind of like a for saving. I have to figure out where am I actually like what is my number actually?

And then the capital investment side too, because hopefully you put one roof on. We're not doing it two years in the future. And that 11,000 does include like the roof like that average, the roof is in that average. The other thing is, I don't think we mentioned these, both of these homes are over 100 years old. Oh wow.

So they're old, they're beautiful, Saint Louis, brick, old but sturdy. We like to say, but so like we've done like tuck pointing and things like that. Which again like you see our building, this is our 100-plus year old building. We like to say it's sturdy as well. All right.

So the duplex is roughly break even. Talk to him about two opportunities.

“What's the opportunity for rental increase specifically on the duplex?”

Meaning are you at top of market pricing right now and then is the Saint Louis market from a rental standpoint. Increasing every year, like the rents go up 3, 4, 5% on an annualized basis, or they pretty much flat. I would say there's an opportunity to move up a little bit. I think it might be the middle.

No, I would say like for what the amenities are, so they don't have, they don't have central AC. So it's window units, they're good, they work great. Radiator heat. Radiator heat, so they're like older units in that way. So I feel like I'm at the top end of rent.

I probably have like I would go up every year, but and I do go up every year. But I feel like unless I've made this, you guys can correct me if I'm wrong. But I feel like unless I made a significant investment, it's like have central AC or an H-back system. Then I really probably shouldn't be at the higher end of the market. Yeah, it's not going to move super quickly.

And is it the duplexes or the quadplexes that would require 40 grand per unit? Also the quadplexes. Yeah, okay. So. All right, so on the duplex, we know that the rental increase is not going to be,

it's likely going to be cost of living inflation, maybe touch below that. Yeah, yeah.

So then the second question we have, if we're thinking about this from an investment standpoint,

“it's okay, what's the capital appreciation opportunity, right?”

So when you bought the duplex right now, you have it listed as worth $260,000. How much did you pay for it when you bought it? I paid to 11. So to 11, we bought this like at COVID, like right around that. April 2021, and since then, we've seen a like a rapid rise in the real estate market.

See that go from $211,000 to $260,000 over that time period. Realistically, what are the outlooks on this property increasing? Is it, is there something happening in the area, the neighborhood, the geography, what causes to become a much more highly value property? Or is it likely that again, it's going to be inflation, cost of living?

I think, yeah, they're very stable environments. Well, things a little more stable. Yours is a little bit more growing. He's unlike a, he's in an area of St. Louis. That's very close.

It's like our second largest park, but he's on the periphery of that.

I'm still in the neighborhood, but it's just keeps going down, like in terms of development. Like, we've both had on our streets like houses that have been purchased and completely rehabbed and things like that. So signs of positive growth and development, yeah. So you think there is a lot of upward potential for, let's just talk about the dueplex.

So I wanted to, let's talk about individually, just the dueplex. A lot of upward potential in terms of what the price could appreciate. My realtor thinks that it could go for 300 now. We're trying to be concerned. Yeah, absolutely.

So it's probably worth more than 260 right now. I think it's probably worth like 285. Realistically, let's assume, for this conversation, it's worth 300. Where can it go from here? Can it go from 300 to 350?

Does it go from 300 to 400?

I don't know when, like, the next handful of years.

I would say, I would use St. Louis as an average. Like, in terms of, like, national growth for real estate and what real estate tends to go up. It's not, it's a pretty stable city in that regard. If we're looking at national averages of real estate increase, you know, the national, you know, on average how much real estate increases every year.

Sands the past couple of years. Roughly the right of inflation. It's going to roughly keep up with inflation. Somewhere three, four percent, depending on what's going on. And so we're thinking about these rental properties as an investment opportunity.

Well, generally when people invest in real estate, they want one of two things. They either want cash flow. They want it to create some sort of income for. Then there's a yield to it.

Or they want some capital appreciation in the future.

Well, what you've laid out for us right now. The mortgage is on these 30 or mortgages. Yes. On these right there. So you've got these 30 or mortgages.

That's not really cash flowing. It's cash, Blake, breaking even in terms of duplex. And then in terms of growth on the real estate property, what do you think is realistic? Well, probably around the rate of inflation over the long term.

I want to hear more about the quadplex. So I don't want to just get bogged down only in the real estate.

“Because I think that my outside and bow and I will do a deep dive after this meeting and kind of come up with some thoughts.”

We'll probably need to get a little bit more specifics on how much of this is expenses versus capital improvements. But I think because y'all's income is so strong. Now, I heard a bird whispered in my ear that y'all might even want to change how your income is structured with both of you working. So we'll want to talk about that too. But it's a current status income.

I don't know the matters. It's more of the time. Right. Is the most valuable thing for you guys is because y'all should probably have such a strong savings rate. These are multiple assets that are building.

So we need to get to the bottom line of how much time is this really taking.

You know, and then how profitable is it? And then what do y'all trying to do is a household because that all kind of interconnects. And if you to be honest, like we're flexible, I would say it's a blessing our curse. Like we obviously built ourselves a lot of optionality here. And it feels a little debilitating sometimes.

I'd heard because what else primary if you were trying to put to one word, what are you hoping happens? Is it like flexibility? Is it simplicity? What do y'all, what are you hoping for? I think actually both flexibility and simplicity are something that we're absolutely looking for.

And especially into the future as, you know, as our sun gets older, you know, we'd love to be able to spend time with them and build them through the weeds. I mean, I know y'all make plenty of money and stuff, but you don't feel like you lay your head down. There's just not enough hours in the day. I think we did a few years ago.

I think this today last night, not as much. Yeah. It depends on the season. Like if we are like seasonality of like what's happening. So for example, like this is future looking, but like when something happens with the property,

“it's pretty all consuming and you have to think about a can managing contractors and doing all that.”

Looking at like, honestly, we normally lay our heads down and are like pretty peaceful and I, for me, my work can be very consuming as well. And so if there's something happening at work that's all consuming, then it's harder to sleep at night. But in general, like we recognize that we're in a really good spot, and then we've worked hard to get to where we are. And if force comes to worse, like, we sell a property and we'll be fine, you know, like we,

or we'll make it work because even on one income, we would be okay. It's not necessarily what we want to be, but yeah. Well, that's, that's kind of what I'm getting when I said it doesn't matter. It's more of, I'm trying to get you to choose a side. Yeah.

Because, like I said, back to speaking out of both sides, do you want to be a real estate investor? So, I think you don't feel like you're wrong. You're good. I mean, but it's a matter of, because that's the thing when you're talented at multiple things. Yeah.

You know, I'm watching some documentary and I got some horrible names. But I found out this, this MBA player who's on, you know, in Netflix is five. Right? They do. He was like an all star baseball player too. And he's like, I could do, I could have done either one.

“Yeah. He's like, I chose basketball, but I think sometimes when you're gifted, you have to make choices.”

And you'll have good income, you have good assets, you have the things. But do you want to be a real estate investor? So, I think I'm open to what it looks like because I do like the aspects of, like, and work. I'm a project manager. And the real estate investing and managing projects, whether that's flips or, you know, in our case, like a rehab for units,

very much like that. So I see potential in that. And I had thought about that very deeply. But now that we're like, a little closer to where our investments are at, like, over 500,000, I'm like, do I need to do that? Because to be honest, like, if I, if I told you, like, what my ideal day would be, it is not sitting in front of a computer all day. So real estate investing definitely has that draw of flexibility.

And right now, I feel like I don't have time to, like, build in gym time, which sounds so simple.

“But it's either, like, before 630 in the morning or when I'm, you know, when I'm feeding my son for dinner, things like that.”

And so to be honest, like, a little more flexibility in my day, which real estate investing would lend to, but it also can be all consuming as well. Tell me a little about your savings. Oh, no, I want to know about your savings, right? Sure. Tell me, outside of the real estate, where's your money going right now when you build it? So we are pretty firmly at 25% I do 401k match and I do get 10% match. So I do that, minimum right now.

But then we max out IRA, max out my HSA. So we kind of both throw into that bucket effectively. And then we kind of just started to be looked, we just started our brokerage. I saw it on there. Yes, it was a little small business.

I was like, man, no, this step seven. This sounds like it was a pretty bucket. Yeah, we were kind of like, I think we should do this.

Yeah, that was what we should probably start.

And then you go ahead with your savings. Yeah, I'm at 25% he runs what I should be putting everywhere. So that's what I do. You max out your 401k, 24/5 for both of you into 401k.

“Right. And then you said you're maxing out the HSA, so that's what 87, 50.”

There's you're something like that. Yeah. You wouldn't let me bring my tax got into it. And then I have a 3% match for work. Awesome.

And then you're doing, you said you're doing IRAs as well. Yes. Just putting money in like traditional IRAs, non deductible and build that up. Got some money is there. Yeah, no kidding.

I mean, well, do you see a big, it's not a huge, but I see a roll over IRA. Yeah, well, that was a great idea. Where's your 401k, is that? Hey, about you remember what it was like in those early days when we started the company and we were trying to do everything ourselves.

Man, we were wearing like 28 different hats. You start the day thinking you're going to work on things like revenue and strategy. And by the end of the day, you're working on payroll forms and onboarding document.

Yeah. And if we're being honest, it wasn't always the best use of our time.

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You can roll that you can roll over over to your fidelity 401k. And then you would be magically delicious available for doing business. Right now. So Christian, you could roll that you could roll over over to your fidelity 401k, and then you would be magically delicious available for doing backdoor Roth contributions. Right.

Is that the lucky charm? Oh, it's a lucky charm. Yes, that's a lucky charm. That's a lucky charm. Yeah, that's a lucky charm.

So that is something that I'm aware of, but I'm not too familiar actually. Actually how to do that. It's something that I've kind of told myself that I'd like to learn and understand more. Because I think it's something. Yeah, it's like are we at that point, even, you know, I'm not sure.

And I know in the future, absolutely. This is something I need to do before, you know, before, you know, 4550 something at that range. Well, it's just an easy thing. Y'all have enough income and it'll just be another thing in the financial order of operations. I want you to boost that tax-free bucket because y'all are still so young that the compounding growth on that,

it would be incredible. I mean, it would make you think like a leprechaun. I'm keeping it on the theme. Sorry, but we're running a real serious financial check here. OK.

Do you doplex the break in? We've talked about that. Let's talk about the quadplex a little bit.

“What are the numbers in the quadplex in terms of net margin?”

I mean, yeah, you can see what it's, what why value it now is 270.

Are we doing the back of the day? It's been a long time here. And again, potentially up to 300,000. You know, today, right? Which pay for it when you bought it?

So I bought it at 205 April 2020.

“And honestly, it was literally as everything was shutting down.”

I thought this was either the worst or the best idea I've ever had. Right. I have no idea. All the dice. But I knew I wanted to do it.

So I was like, it's now or never.

I was just, I can do it. No, it's the most out of the pandemic. I mean, you bought a real stuff. I don't really want it. Keep it going.

I didn't mean to. No, OK. So I think I've read about 40,000 rent for the year. And again, one of the units is an Airbnb. So it's a little more variable.

But this, you know, pretty average. And then, I think it's mortgage annually with, and taking in mortgage and insurance taxes is 25. 25,000 a year. Yeah.

And then it operates about 10,000 a year, utilities, and everything that we put into it average. Yeah.

So it's netting you about five right a year.

Yeah. And then, like you said, if we took out the actual principal payments on that, I bet it's, it's even better. So this one. This one seems for me.

These two do not seem the same to me. No, it does require. It sounds like it's going to have an $80,000 capital expenditure, if they have to really have it. If we kept it long term, we really like to do that.

“Because I think the rents would probably double on that side.”

Yeah. It's possible. Up to, yeah. Oh, man. We're getting somewhere.

Yeah, I know. [LAUGHTER]

It's almost like you could.

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, we'll have to, the crunch numbers. But it's almost like you could take the proceeds from the duplex, roll it in to re-having double your rent. There's some magical things that could happen here.

Yeah. It's a cash flow. Oftentimes, we'll sit down with folks, and they'll be doing real estate. And we'll be like, hey, you're kind of missing the mark. You're focusing all your effort and all your attention over here,

when you're missing some stuff over here. With you guys, it's really tough. Because you're not missing the stuff over here. You're doing the 25%. You are building for the future.

And that's why Brian was diving into. What is it that you want? Exactly. Do you want to be doing, because like, yes, we could objectively look at the duplex. And we could objectively look at the quad.

And we can provide some analytics around the best cost of capital. And I could likely say, for the duplex, if rents are going to be dead-break-events, there's no cash flow. And capital appreciation is only going to be the rate of inflation. There's a really good chance that a brokerage account will outperform that over the long-term,

if you just buy low cost indices. That's like a use of capital conversation. But you're already saving really, really aggressively. And so like, if real estate is something that you enjoy that you find fulfillment in, that you want to have, you're kind of in that step seven of the financial or reparation,

“where you get to do what you want to do, because you want to, not because you have to.”

So that's where we don't know what you're thinking about maximization, not maximization, we can talk through that. But I don't know what you want. I don't know what you want. I think we're at that crossroads, really, where it's just like, we like your take on, like, how can we build flexible, more flexibility into our lifestyle?

I mean, maybe a little bit more today, but certainly more and more as we age, as our son grows up. Yeah, so for me, we're both very risk-averse too. So like, for example, if you ask him, when would you, he's like 55 is the latest that I'll work this whole time. I mean, I would love to transition out of a W2 full-time W2, ideally, like in the next five years, which would be for me. And I do see real estate as part of our futures, obviously we bought it.

We're not going to be like, I don't know, commercial developers by any means, but if we had a few more units, like we would love that, we, that would be great. It down the line. That's how the income differential will turn you to. So we're fairly close.

Certainly close. So like if you went hard stop, no W2 to real estate, there's a big chasm to make up. I just like almost $150,000. So you'd have to like figure out how to make up or budgetarily live off of one income, right? I do.

You just said something. I'm slowly getting information and I love it. Because it helps me paint the picture. Because you laid out that, because one of the things, I don't want, I, I threw out this suggestion. You could potentially sell the duplex, take the proceeds.

But y'all's income is so strong. No, I would challenge you. We'd still want to do a lot of the basics on the financial order of operations with your 401k, with your, with your Roth funding. Once we get the back door structure set up. But it's, um, if y'all could fund, because I hate for you to sell a duplex.

If you, now you're telling me, we might want more real estate. You, you see how you're kind of sharing different visions. And I, and I don't want to tell you to take away something that you won't be able to reproduce. Because you bought something for $201,000 that now's over 300.

Is, is a word that carries a lot of weight is because you guys are, and you're quickly

realizing you'll have made such good decisions at a young age. There's not just one path to success of victory. There's actually thousands, if not even multiple thousands of, and y'all, because you'll made such good, now the problem with people who defer and procrastinate, the thousands turn into one into zero, y'all are the opposite.

You're, you're like my favorite books as a kid, the choose your own adventure. And, um, and we just have to help you figure out what gets you, the, the intersection of both the mathematics, but also the mindset as well as the happiness that when you lay your head down and night you go, I spend my mornings and my days doing exactly what I want to do.

“And I think for me, it does mean, like, eventually going away from a nine to five job.”

Okay. Like, I'm a very tech and computer-focused in my day-to-day work. And I'd love more flexibility throughout my day to, like, I mean, I have nephews. And going to their, going to their stuff, if real, whenever our son has pill trips, doing that. Like, now it's like, okay, I have to, like, I could find time to do that.

And I have a remote job, so I could, but it's just, like, any time I do something like that, I feel like I'm taking away from the work that I'm doing. And so building in a little more flexibility, but the choose your own adventure book, like, my problem was, I read every adventure. She's just in a mall.

She's just in a mall. She's just in a mall. Go to page 48. And then she will write back to page 27. She's going away with the art for me because I like them all.

Yeah. Yeah. How, uh, with the duplex specifically, how recently was it your primary residence? And we moved in 2023. Yeah.

So up until fall of 2023. So as your primary residence in 2022? Yeah. You were the last five years. Yeah.

You picked it up. Yeah. Okay. We started to fall.

“Uh, because again, okay, if you're going to do real estate, um,”

similar as you do any investments, like not all real estate is created equal. Some opportunities are more attractive. Some opportunities are less attractive. Some opportunities are a better use of capital. Some opportunities are worse use of capital.

Uh, with the duplex, one of the things that I'm saying is you bought it for two 11. It's worth 300 now. So you saw roughly a 50% run up in price over a very short, amount of time.

And you've already said, I, not a whole lot is going to improve on this duplex over the near term because of just the way it's structured. So you kind of like, you know, warm buff.

It always uses the analogy.

He used to walk around looking for cigarette butts. It had one puff on it. One puff on it. One puff on it. One puff on it.

Cigars. I can't remember the cigarettes or cigars. You're nasty. Your duplex, right? Had, had a really good puff on it.

And you got that puff from 2021 to 2025. The question is, does it make sense to continue holding that? Or might that capital better you somewhere else? Because you just said, if we were to have some sort of capital infusion into the quad and improve it, we could roughly double rent on that one.

Yeah. And it's also one that was bought for 205,000 and turned into 300,000. A 50% rate of return. And yet it does have upward mobility. So if you're going to turn into like real estate investors and folks that want to invest in real estate,

“you have to figure out, okay, how do I analyze each property in that sort of”

in that sort of way? And you also have to recognize when opportunities exist. Like, okay, if I'm going to do something to the duplex, man, I might need to do it pretty quickly. Because there's a there's a clock ticking on me to be able to take advantage of what your primary residence is. The chance we could exclude a portion of the game.

Yeah. The other thing, no, look, you also, even if we, the timer ran out of us. You could do a like kind of exchange potentially too. You know, you have 45 days to designate and then 180 days to close on properties. And by the way, when you do those like kind of exchanges, don't choose one property because real estate's so shaky.

You need to go find three to five potential properties to name in that 45 day period.

It is what I always recommend to people.

But you have options on this. Because you really, it doesn't treat me bow in some ways. I know we'll kind of talk about plan of actions later and share that. But we've already heard from Becca that they want to do more real estate. So now it's like, where's the most bang for the buck and what's the biggest opportunity in this moment?

Yeah. I think, I mean, quadplex tend to outperform duplexes anyway. And we want the, like, we have to upgrade the one that he has. So like, we do, we see ourselves having more real estate in the future. But I think before we were to buy another property, we would fix that.

I want to show that with that. Let me ask your life, life's something. You'll have one child. Any more kids? So that's something we've talked about.

So we don't know the answer to that. Okay, because the reason I asked that is because also I noticed on your cash flow. Y'all spend was at $1500 a month on on. Yeah. Take care.

So that that goes into the cash cash analysis on how much income we have to replace. It's not necessarily 130 or a whole thousand. 20 of that might come off. And if you have another child. Now we're, you're quickly realizing now there's even.

Maybe this thing gets below six figures. Yeah. Now how do we, maybe build that up somehow?

Y'all are very disciplined with your savings right already. You've mentioned coast fire a few times. Walk us through some numbers. If you were to, if you were to actually be able to coast. Have you done any of the number?

Like, hey, if we could save this much by this age. Oh, yeah. So I think, yeah. I've tried to look at it from, you know, a lot of different ways. Listening to advice from, you know, yourself.

And from others, you know, that I can find and we've read several books as well. And, and I really think, especially as we age and as we pay off our primary mortgage. And reduce daycare. I mean, if you look at what our spin rate is now.

“I mean, I think we could reduce it to like 4,000 a month, right?”

4 to 5 would be, you know, very fairly comfortable. And I think even looking at like, retiring as early as 50.

I mean, if we, if I were to see, I think the number of like 2 or 2.5 million.

I mean, that would be to me an indicator, like, I think we're here. We hit our number. But I mean, that's also something that I feel like is a little speculative. I feel like the horizon, our timer is still a little further out that things could change. We might have another child.

I don't know. And so it's, it just feels like there's too many variables to like firmly say. But I think that, at least, is a good base for us to start with. Got it. Yeah.

And coast fire for me doesn't mean like not having an income at all on my side. Like, I could do a part-time job. It's a very flexible there in which is helping and hurting this conversation, I guess. Yeah. She said, I can do anything.

I can do these other things. I can do anything. I can do all these things. I love it. I really got some homework.

“That's what I've already, I've got some ideas too, because it's one of those things.”

We already saving 25%. If we backed into the numbers, a lot of people think coast fire has to mean. And maybe technically it does if you go follow to the definition you go from saving 30, 40% of your income down to zero.

I always say, but somebody like you guys, you could go from 25% to your changing lifestyle where you go off a one income.

The other says that you can't just save 10 to 15% to maximize the employer match and other things and still get some growth in there. But still fulfill your goals of being financially independent between 50 and 55. Yeah. What other questions you guys have for us? I mean, I've already, my mind's already kind of racing on it, because here's what's going to be.

I already know we're going to do it, but I, well, they could do this or they could do this or they could do this. And she does really good with options. If we give her a bunch of options, odds are she's not going to be amenable to all those options. Yeah, I guess not necessarily a question, but things to factor in and prep for the show. They're like, what are some expenses that you anticipate?

So the house that we're in now, it's interest rate is more on par with where interest rates are today. We may like buying another house, maybe an option. So in St. Louis, we may buy to like be in a better school district for our son. We have a few years to determine that, but yeah, something on the back of our mind for us. We wouldn't really do a major, I don't think a major effort.

We just really want a second full bathroom because you're a host family for, well, like, multiple times a week. It's like seven people. And you will sell the existing home because it's not really not rental. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

We thought about it, but we decided, I think. Yeah, we would sell that one. And then in the next five years, we do anticipate we'll need another new to us car. I drive a lovely Ford Fiesta that wasn't made to go forever. Well, we both have ten year old vehicles paid off.

I drive it to coma, it's also ten years old, but her Ford Fiesta putting the baby in the baby scene. And the back is, it's pretty tight.

That's amazing backwards.

Yeah. Is there a reason why you say new car in the next five years as opposed to, like, in the next five years? Well, we still have the mentality of we like to run them to the ground. You know, it's basically, you know, someone you heard the part where you said your son's like crying. When you put him in the bag, did you all hear that?

But we wanted to take real quick so they could. But, but I love because I don't think this is public. But won't mommy share and I found out that Bo was putting on. He was telling me, you know, my child's diapers keep getting. He had blowouts every day.

They're blown out and I'm like, oh, you realize. And you look, this is years ago. Yes, he's now a veteran. He has three children. This was on the first one.

So we all loved to mentor each other. And I was like, you realize that is indicator one that you're putting on two small diapers. That's like not a little box. That's exactly right.

“The tightwood side of him is, and that's what I would tell you guys, I get, I can already feel from you.”

You're not going to die broke. You're not going to die penniless. So you have to, we both, by the way, we were card carrying tightwoods ourselves for the very beginning part as we're growing. But there was a time that I was like, my income's at a point in the way I'm living my life now.

But I'm definitely not a tightwood anymore.

“And I think you guys are probably in that transition phase right now.”

And that's where, and when I meet tightwoods that are, that are financial mutants that are kind of trying to figure out what money can and cannot do for them. I would challenge you from a safety standpoint, from a quality of life. If your child is crying because the cars, you know, that this is an exercise and not good for the family. You know, let's figure it out.

You can buy a nice used car and probably solve that problem sooner than five years. I do think there's definitely a mental mindset, mindset shift in that regard to being less frugal. You're still good with money. I'm telling you, it's just that I've seen so many relationships where a lot of those, there's a final line between financial mutant and financial miser.

And you just have to navigate that. A lot of those good behaviors that you're rewarded when you're younger of being a miser. It's great because it builds this awesome foundation. But as a couple, as y'all are making these big decisions on who stops working, you know, when do we buy a new car?

Do we go deeper into the whole real estate investor? You're a quickly realized that all of this also has this umbrella of quality of life. And as you do, we want to be in what gives us fulfillment and happiness from this tool of money. Because that's all it is. It's just a tool.

You go find out when you reach three million five million.

It doesn't feel any different than it did when we were getting our first million.

Right. We just got to now shape our life to understand our why and be the people we want to be. Yeah. It's very helpful to hear from you because I feel like we feel that, but we're still getting around. We're doing great.

I feel like I'm a coach here just just like barely around the edges because you'll do so much stuff naturally good. Now y'all are a financial planer's dream. I won't tell you. I mean, after this is because I see so many opportunities for you guys to fine tune this thing. You're also in what's cool is it's not just a one off come on making a millionaire.

You guys have every year you're going to have hey, but we wanted to do we thinking about doing this.

“Well, let's go run the numbers that's why I love what we get to do for a living is because we get to work with our successful clients and kind of build this together.”

It's not just the one off thing. Yeah. And so we're going to do is we're going to come up with some of the quantitative stuff. We're going to come up with some options. We're going to crunch some numbers and hey, here's some stuff that you ought to think about that you should look at.

But I've got some whole work for you guys and it's more of the qualitative side. And I just kind of jot down some notes. If I were you guys between now and the time that we kind of send you some of our thoughts. I do some research on both of your 401k. You said yours is a fidelity, yours is a descent. How good are the investment options inside the 401k?

Are they robust or the diverse? Because there might be a strategy where it makes sense to roll your IRAs into your 401k. Zero them out and open up a back door Roth opportunity. So now all of a sudden, instead of y'all just doing 7500 into regular IRAs every year, you get to just 7500 into Roth IRAs every year. And you can start growing some tax-free money.

That's a boom chocolate. That's a boom chocolate. That's a boom chocolate. Is the technical financial term for that? The other thing is you guys really need to sit down and talk about what is it that we want.

You're now at the place where you get to make financial decisions.

“Not so much because you have to, but because you get to, or because you want to.”

But you have to define that. Do we want to do real estate? Do we want to manage this? Do we both want to work? Do we, so you need to have some conversations around that.

And in those conversations, you figure out how deep you want to go into real estate. Is real estate a job for you? Or is it, hey, part of our financial life is that we have some real estate properties. Because those are two very different things. How do you want to approach it and how do you want to attack that?

And then I just put the last thing here. I think it'd be worthwhile for you guys to sit down and calculate the cost of fidelity. At your income and your savings, at your assets, you could go buy a new cardamoro. Right? You're at the place where you could do that.

But you have this mentality that we want to drive it all the way into the wheels fall off. And that's okay. Again, money is nothing more than a tool that allows you to accomplish the goals that you have. But is, are you doing that because it's what you want or you're doing that just because something's hard-wired in you guys? Because if there are things, would being in a new or automobile give you more peace of mind,

make family road trips more fun. Whatever the thing is, is there a cost that you are paying unnecessarily, needlessly to be as frugal as you are? Because it's okay to graduate and grow out of that. So a lot of conversations for you all to have, and a lot of calculations for us to do.

Yeah, I just, the big thing is, because I love you. Immediately, I mean, kudos to all you all, super power.

I always love with the old first five minutes.

I mean, when I heard about, when I heard that, you know, the way I'll met and then the conversations of what you all know,

So you guys are crushing it.

Thank you. Also, the like is mutual. Yes. We can delete that. We can delete it.

Awesome. Thank you, yes. Thank you. Thank you. But what a great conversation we had with Beckett and Christian for two folks in their mid 30s. They're kind of crushing it.

Well, I didn't even hide the fact that I thought I'd love these people. I mean, the fact that the way they met, and then they started talking about personal finance.

And they both had rental properties.

These are my folks, right? You kind of all went together nicely.

“Now, I will tell you what I think is amazing about them is not only did they have a personal finance focus,”

but they got into real estate and sometimes it's better to be lucky, sure. They're good. Because man, oh man, did things go a little different once you and I crunch the numbers? Then what we even kind of laid out in the show for them about their rental problems? Yeah, it was interesting because we were recording.

I was kind of, I don't want to say like, sourd on them, but there was not like an incredibly compelling story to both those rental properties. But then we began to peel the curtain back a little bit and actually run the numbers and what we found was absolutely fascinating. So what we did is we took the information they shared with us when kind of went back to the drawing board.

If you remember, they told us total rents coming in for the dueplex. It was just a hair under 26,000, 25,800. And for the quadplex, it was just a hair under 40,000, 39, 900. And they said that realistically, they were kind of just about breaking even. And while that may have been true from a cash flow perspective,

I would not describe either one of them is break even investments.

“Yeah, I mean, what I think is interesting, if you would ask me why we were recording in real time with them.”

I was like, we're going to tell them to sell the dueplex. I kind of knew that they need to invest more into the quadplex. If we can double the rent, let's make some magic happen here. Yeah. But also, we couldn't definitively say that because there was a lot of cloudy or muddy in there.

Because they didn't know how much was the mortgage payment that was just paying back the mortgage. They didn't know how much of our capital improvements like when they put roof on or any of the repairs that were going in the long term be better for the investment. They weren't getting a clear reflection on what the actual cost or operating expenses were or what the return on their equity really was. But when we kind of looked at this, it was like, Yeah, I mean, it kind of blew my mind on how good not only.

Because remember, let's focus on this is unique. Where they live, there's actually duplexes and quadplexes. When they brought this during around the COVID era, they got super low interest rates. They've gotten really good rents compared to what their initial low cost purchase.

This stuff is kind of amazing when you actually piled back the numbers.

Yeah, when we start to back and looked at the numbers, this is what we found when you pay a mortgage part of your payment goes to principle and part goes to interest. When you're thinking about the cost, it's really just the interest cost you want to factor in because principal payments are sort of like a forced saving mechanism. You're saving it inside of the equity of the property.

“So when we just look at the interest expense on the duplex, remember, the rate was 2.75%. They were spending about $5,600 in interest and for the quadplex at a rate of 3.625%.”

So low. They were spending just a hair under $6,500 in interest. So the money going towards the principles were like this forced saving. So even though they weren't necessarily having a ton of cash flow come their way because the mortgage payment and the rental payments were roughly equal. It was looking pretty good.

So from there, we said, okay, let's look at what the average operating expenses are. Let's take the capital expenditures out and only look at the operating expenses. What we found was for the duplex. It was operating on a year-over-year basis with about $11,000 of expenses. And for the quadplex, it had about $16,500 of non-capital expenses.

So when you continue like following that down and you look at how the numbers played out, the actual net profit on the duplex came into just under $9,000 a year. And then the quadplex came in 16,900. And so when you look at these properties, now we know what the actual dollar figure of return is. We have to compare that to the actual capital investment or the equity they have in the properties.

If we adjust the values of the properties closer to market value because it looked mean you love being conservative. We do it all the time. Right. I would argue in the world that they were living. They were perhaps even a little overly conservative.

Agreed. disagree. I mean, I already see the numbers here, but I'm being a math nerd. I mean, we're going to do this off of return on their equity. Not their initial investment.

The number would even be bigger if we based this off of just what the down payment was.

But they have a hundred thousand dollars like the duplex. Hundred thousand dollars of equity right now. And by showing right here, they're making profit of close to nine thousand dollars. 9% yield on their cash. That's pretty incredible once you strip out what's capital investments.

So you strip out all the, you know, the principal payment on the mortgage. And you look at the quadplex. I mean, they've got a hundred and twenty five thousand dollars of equity. You can quickly see that they've got like a $1,000 or $1,000. That's like a 13 and a half percent.

And here's what's even so wild for me.

We, as I already alluded to, I would have told you, we were going to say sell the duplex. But after seeing these numbers, we can't do that. You can't. But they, they told us because there's something that we need to release address is that they said, Hey, if we invest in this quadplex and we put approximately $80,000 into this,

we could double double the rent. So I want you to, I want you to kind of internalize what that means is that this thing that already is at 13 and a half percent. If we could just put a little bit more money into it, we could double the rent, which would easily put their rate of return or

rate on return on equity over 20%. Well, it's $16,000 into an $80,000 investment. That's unbelievable. It's a 21% rate of return on that. They're like a credit card company. They have to do it, right? It's too compelling.

They have to do it. And so the question that the homework that I would give for them is,

“I need to have a conversation, okay, what do we want?”

Obviously, we were wondering if there was a lot of merit to either one of these properties. We have now discovered that when we actually look at the numbers, they are both incredibly compelling investment opportunities. They don't sell either one of them. So it doesn't make sense to sell them.

They don't need to figure out what we want our lives to look like. Do we want to add on to our real estate? Do we want to be real estate managers? Do we want to hire some sort of management company? Because I would argue, at the numbers that they have,

they kind of have the freedom to choose. They can pick and choose how they want to interact with this.

And what they ultimately want their wealth building journey to look like.

Well, not also, they ought to go ahead and try to figure out if they can come up with a plan to do the improvements. That's right. But I think the good news is they have a big shovel. They have a really good income coming in. And they have a lot of margin separation from what their living expenses are from what they bring in.

I think that within less than a year, they could pay for those improvements on the property of that quadplex in the first year. And then get all the fruit, all the yield off of those improvements. So super powerful stuff. I thought it was valuable.

“I think there was, there was another question about it.”

I want to know what we put together on this. What does their retirement look like? Well, so again, one of the things we say that makes a lot of sense is they ought to figure out how that they come up with a capital to improve the quadplex. Like that makes sense.

And one of the ways they had talked about potentially doing that was backing down their savings. Kind of doing like a little bit of coast-fifting and saying, "Okay, what if all we do is just the 401k?" And there's a, if I put in 10%, I get a 10% match. What does that look like?

How does that play out? Well, what we found is if they do that and they only save up to that 10% and then they get the 10% match, that's going to be a total of about $22,000 a year going into the 401k. Well, they already have $527,000 of liquid investment assets saved up. Just saving that.

And if we assume that eight and a half percent rate of return from now until you get to retirement,

by age 55, they'd have almost a $4 million portfolio,

not including the real estate, not including those assets. If they did this all the way out until age 60, it's over six point two million dollars with just Christian saving that 10%. So again, they've done a lot of the heavy lifting early on that gives them tons of flexibility and margin to figure out how their future should look.

What if you look even for my inflation trolls? That's still for 55 present value of about $89,000 a year. Or it's 60 years age equivalent to days dollars of cost of $120,000 a year. That's $10,000 a month. I love it.

I mean, they have talking about poster child for why if you get in early and do it often on saving an investment, you get lots of flexibility, lots of opportunities. So they are going to be a good definition of good decisions on real estate. Good decisions on investing early is going to allow them to have this co-stop opportunity and still check all the boxes on what they want to do financially.

So a few piece of homework items I have for number one, figure out how we come up with the capital for the $80,000 fruit of the quadplex. Number two, figure out when it comes to real estate, what do we want our life to look like, how actively involved we want to be, how much we want to expand, how much we want to add to it.

“And then number three, I think that would really be helpful for them to think about”

is they're going to have options earlier on in life. We've already said the way that they're going to be saving from a liquid standpoint is in their 401K. So if they leave the workforce before age 55 or before age 59 and a half,

If we're saving all and qualified assets and we want to leave it 50,

we might need something to get us from 50 out to 59 and a half. Maybe that's real estate income, maybe that's some sort of other passive income.

“But I think they are so far ahead of the curve at this point.”

They ought to begin thinking about what that looks like.

Yeah, those taxable brokerage accounts is going to probably be able to create a nice bridge account in there too, but what an awesome couple. I mean, I think I led with it.

This was I quickly knew I loved this couple just from the hearing how they met and so forth.

And I just can't wait to see what the future builds for them. If somebody else wants to come on making a millionaire, where do they apply? Yeah, if you'd like to be a guest on making a millionaire, you can go to moneyguide.com/apply.

“Or if you want to check out any of our tools and calculators, you can go to moneyguide.com/resources.”

Back up, Christian, thank you. This was an absolute pleasure. We loved creating this content for you. And hopefully, many out there in our financial mutant universe are going to get a lot of benefits. I'm your host, Brian, join the Mr. Bo, moneyguide team out. Maiden the millionaire is hosted by Brian Preston and Bo Hanson.

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