Why did Taylor Swift stop singing in a country accent?

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“why did Taylor Swift stop singing in a conjure accident?”

That's it, that's it. We explore authenticity in popular music.

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talking about it. Yeah, that's me, Clifford Taylor the fourth. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfills of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford Show on the iHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And for more behind the scenes, follow @ Clifford and @ TikTok podcast network on TikTok. All right. So today's episode was inspired by a listener email. This is from Joel V. He says, "My wife asked me a question the other day as we were driving

“somewhere. This is his wife. Why do we only hear pronounced accents in country music songs?”

It seems like whenever Americans hear songs by British artists, we can never really

discern their accent. However, with country songs, the accent is clear. There are other top genres where accent is clear. All right, Joel. Great question. And Miss Joel. So this is on we've been talking about over the years and thinking about accents and music more broadly before we get zero in on Joel's question. How do you all feel with this general premise that basically outside of country music,

it's kind of hard to discern accents in music. Yeah, I don't know if it's that black and white, but I certainly know what they're getting at, which you know, growing up, I've been always fascinated hearing or like finding out that a singer is English. You know, we see this in acting all the time, but in music as well. I feel like this is more of a thing in pop music where it's harder to discern, you know, I think our classic example is like we think of like

you're saying like someone from the UK and not being able to be like, "Oh, shoot. I thought you are American." But because you know, and let's say a genre like rap, it's very clear at one area. Yeah. Let's close to the spoken word. Where is Shrumpon? Yeah. These are the grass school. Yeah. Yeah. Where are some of our examples of artists that you are like, whoa, I didn't realize this person was from this place. Well, I remember,

“do you guys remember Leona Lewis? Oh, yeah. So in 2008, I think she had the song Bleeding Love.”

I don't care what they say. I'm in love with you. And the reason it's more clear to me,

obvious difference between the American accent and the English accent is they don't pronounce R. So instead of first, it'd be like, first or whatever. Or like, you know, let's go out there. Let's go out there and Leona Lewis. And so you can hear in the verse, it's not just that her accent disappears. They are literally pronouncing the words like Americans.

So that's always been intentional. It would be hard to act to like accidentally pronounce

“first like an American, I think. I don't know. Maybe when you're singing, you're reading out”

ununciating the letters. That's kind of my guess. I was thinking of, I was thinking about trying to think of some examples. And then I was watching a movie yesterday and Elvis Costello was in it. And Elvis Costello is English. He's a rock kind of new wave rock guy. And I was like, oh, let me let me listen to him and see, because I remember listening to him back in middle school or something. And I didn't know anything about him. And I was listening to him. Just, I guess I assumed he was American.

And he had a lyric in a song that was like something Mr. Oswald with a swastika tattoo. And I assumed he's talking about Lee Harvey Oswald. And I was like, okay, there's a lot of theories

around this guy. I've never heard this particular one. So I remember actually looking it up then.

But it was like, oh, it's talking about like a well-known fascist British politician. Yeah. Oh, that makes sense. And then the references. Yeah, so it was like, so it was from that context clue. But even in his songs that are some songs, he's more belting it out. And some he's not talking but a little bit more like faster where it seems more close to the language. When I listened to him, I wouldn't, I don't hear an accent at all. So it's only the contextual clues of what he's

“singing about. I think some Americans that try to sound British. Yeah, I think there's a lot of”

like, the Ramones kind of do a little in effect, like whatever Blitz Creek Bob or something. And they're just

singing in a, it's just a little style where it's like not how you would actually talk if you were a person. They're just like a little, you know, yeah. So that's the most prominent example I can think of and then there's a band Rancid who are like later on who are like very influenced by the class who are an English band. And the guys just clearly doing a Joe Strummer, clearly just heard him in his singing like him.

It's like, I don't know, maybe he's just some street punk guy doing this thing, but it's like, yeah, he's trying to do this thing and that's funny because then they're advanced copying this guy. It becomes a really copy of a copy of all these guys. Mostly American tried to sound like this British guy from, you know, generations before now. That's fast. But those are the ones I've, I've thought of. Actually, they got from Girl Damon Albert and from the band Blair,

these English. Oh, yeah. And Gorillas. And they, I guess they do a lot more kind of almost talking stuff. So he, you can hear his, he sounds extra, he has a strong accent. Yeah. It comes through in the music because it's more talking, like if you listen to whatever Clint Eastwooder, any of this song. And happy. I'm feeling glad I got sunshine in a back. I'm useless for

“not for long. So there's no, no mystery there. Yeah, that's what he's building out to. Like the”

English singers that sound English when they sing. So what's her name? Lily Allen. Yeah. That really Allen song from like the mid 2000s. It was very clear. Yeah. And again, that's like a little more talkie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And again, that's like a little more talkie. Yeah. That's, like, a little more talkie. Yeah, they just are black bars. Yeah. Does a del do this. I was, I was just, yeah, let's play some rap. That's, this is my, my belting theory. If you're belting it out and a del is one of our great

belters, yeah. I think it's a lot harder to hear. Yeah. I was for this way. Her singing accent is nowhere near her. Well, that's something. Yeah. Because that's the thing you know. She has a very thick accent. Yeah. Talking. And Jenny Dale is little chopped up bits of eel, which is probably just boiled. Actually, now I think about it. It's like, no flavor in it at all. Because that's, I was trying to think of, like,

I recognize that to John Lennon's voice. And I know how he sounds when he's talking. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't actually think there's an accent when he's singing. Then there's obviously songs when they're doing more of a talk. Like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. More. But mostly, if you're, whatever, Tristan, shout or something. Yeah. Wouldn't think that. But let's hear a del. Yeah. It's just kind of like the classic soul singer voice. You know, that doesn't necessarily sound English. What about Taylor Swift? Yeah. You think about it. Like, when she first came out,

“she was singing in like crazy Nashville country accent. Like, I remember one of my good friends,”

his cousin, like, went to like high school with, or element of your school, younger, uh, with with Taylor Swift. And she's from Pennsylvania. And I was like, wait a minute. You went to school with Taylor, isn't Taylor Swift from like, yeah, I can talk to you. Yeah, somewhere now. So yeah. It's like, no, she's from Pennsylvania. And he says, I'm song is the slamming screen.

That's crazy. I actually haven't, I don't know. I've never heard that song. Yeah. There's

her transition to pop was like a gradual thing, right? Like, 1989, I guess was like, that was the one that was fully no comes. Yeah. Like, I'm not pretending anymore at all. But that early stuff, that's a really like a country toy. Yeah, fully country accent as opposed to what I was imagining, or Jack a little bit of a, you know, a tilt. Yeah. No, that's like, uh, yeah, and then, you know, and I should make a pop music and like, doesn't exist anymore. But this is crazy thing.

When I was looking for this, so she performed this more, more recently on the nearest tour. So it's curious how's it sound. How similar this Taylor sounds. What's your, is she go back to that twing? No, she's doing like the pop version now. She completely lost the X wow. Or more accurately, she's no longer putting on an X. Yeah. It's like, you know, obviously, she was much younger when that song came out. But this is not like, okay,

“my voice is different. Yeah. I'm singing in different key. This is like on the side. I was different. Yeah.”

So what I want to do is I'm going to play some songs. And I want you guys to try to guess where the artist is from the one rules, if you know who the artist is, don't say anything. Where the artist is from in terms of just their nationality. Yeah. [Music] I don't know this. I don't know this song either. Well, if that doesn't sound. I know, I'm just

clarify. There was something away. Do I get five dollars if I get this? There was something about the way he said the word to TO that I thought was English. Yeah, I'm getting English vibes,

“but I'm, I'm in my head now. Okay. So that is McGee from New Jersey. What the heck?”

Wow. That's incredible. All right. Let me play.

[Music] I'm going UK again. I think he said cameras in a very UK way. There's a couple of different cameras. What do we got? This one's a little bit of a cheat. It's Mustafa. He's Canadian. So, I'll give you half a point for that. All bets are off. We're in Canada. Toronto. Toronto. Did you have an accent there? I'll give you a half a point because, you know,

okay. The Queen's on the money. Yes. I'll give you that one. Okay. I'll give you guys an easy one. [Music] I don't know. I'm scared now, but they would be dropping then. We're like that. I don't think over there. So, yeah, this guy's American. Yeah. This is a no-cat for a mobile Alabama. All right. Let's do.

[Music]

[Music] I'm American. I'm going to go English. English. You're American. You're both wrong. What? It's his choice of on from Australia. I was like, I thought I was McDonald's.

“See, I mean, too. I thought it was like, what's the guy's name from one direction?”

Not him, the other. Zane. Zane. Because he said never without an R, but I guess in Australia, they

also do that. You guys did horrible at that game. We didn't get any right? We got a half point for Canadian. I should also get a half point for Australian. So, I got a full point. So, maybe we're not so good at, well, at least you two aren't so good at the search. [Music] Well, at least we think we are. So, we are going to be joined by New Yorker, music writer,

and critic, caliphacene. And we're going to go deep on genre, on gatekeeping. And of course, accents in popular music. All of that, after the break. [Music] All right, fellas. I need you to help me with a problem that I got. You know, usually, we're the ones helping other people with their problems, but I'm about to go abroad,

and I want to watch Met Games. No, what? How can I watch them? That's a tough one. Maybe you get a really large telescope?

“I don't think that's the best way to do it. Many, you have any solutions on how”

to watch Met Games abroad. I think I've got a slightly more practical solution for you, Devon. If you use NordVPN, you'll be able to change the location of your laptops IP address and watch the content with no problem. What about my privacy online? I'm worried someone's

watching me. First of all, no one is watching you know it. But in case someone was watching you,

NordVPN provides you with privacy online, leaving no digital footprint by hiding your IP address. It's like wearing an invisibility cloak while you're surfing the web. Sounds comfy. So many, I've heard about these VPNs and how they're super slow. How do I make sure my internet is not throttling? If you want to use a VPN without slowing down your internet Devon, you're going to want to use NordVPN because whenever I use it, I don't see any buffering or lagging

while I'm streaming my favorite content. How do I get NordVPN? Devon, if you or our listeners want to get the best discount off of your NordVPN plan, go to NordVPN.com/nst. Our link will also give you four extra months on the two-year plan and there's no risk because Nord has a 30-day money-back guarantee. The link is in the show notes that's NordVPN.com/nst. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting? Think again. More Americans listen to podcast

than ad-supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, I Heart's twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only I Heart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business? Think I Heart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting call 844-844-I Heart to get started. That's 844-844-I Heart. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but

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Clifford Taylor the fourth. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week I'll

take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just the podcast.

It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are

chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream,

“this is right what you need to be. Listen to the Clifford Show on the iHard Radio app,”

Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow @ Clifford and a TikTok podcast network on TikTok. So, in the studio, we're joined by Kay, who's a critic, in a writer at the New Yorker, an author of major labels, a history, a popular music, and seven genres.

the cover. I was like, "Wow, why doesn't it have a kind of a plastic key?" That's a library book. I support my local library, man. You know, what I was doing early in this podcast was I was buying every single book, and then I got some books that didn't want to keep. I see you're saying this might be one of them. We'll find out. This is the audition. It's by the end of the episode, you know, is that a thing on your show, like at the end of the episode, if it goes well, I get to watch

you log on to Amazon and buy it. So just as a reminder, this episode started with a question,

“I'm going to listen to your name Joel. Why do we only hear pronounced accents in country music?”

First of all, do you agree with that premise? No, that's crazy. That's insane. All right,

we're on the same page. What's an accent, right? Like, hmm. And to be fair to Joel, he says pronounced accents. Like you. Yes. I think he thinks you can hear, you know, if someone's got an English accent, for example, well, I wonder if when Joel says pronounced accents, he means fake. Is that his polite way of saying fake? I think he, yes, from the rest of the email, it seems like performative, maybe. It's not fake. Well, yeah. Put on, like, leave me into it. Yes. It's funny,

because in one definition, any musician who has any accent is performative by definition, if you're performing, yes, in terms of, in terms of they're being a noticeable difference between the accent and the way you talk in every day. Or sense that the accent is there to help you try to, like,

“fit in with the genre you're part of. Yeah, you hear some of that in country, but yeah, I think”

you hear it other places too. Obviously, country has a more regional identity in some ways,

although even that gets a little complicated by what we mean by regional. There's a lot of different, there's a lot of different reasons a person might have an accent. So, yes, you tell me where we're going. But I want to start with country music. Okay. Um, because that was where, you know, that was your last question. But you talk about this, country is an interesting genre because I think it gate keeps in a way that a lot of other genres just don't. I disagree, but please don't. Oh, okay.

There is this thing in country music in which they love to talk about sort of like authenticity and holding on to that. And they're certain, you talk about this in your book, certain signifiers of country music that we all know of. So, can you talk a little bit about sort of like country music's

positioning of sort of like authenticity and sort of this fear, like, almost being too big and like

“holding on to that? Well, I want to zoom out a little bit because when I think about”

musical genres, I think of them as communities. And it's like a community of listeners and musicians sometimes literally in the same room, but sometimes it's just like you're listening to the music and you're like imagining the other people that might also listen to this music and you know, you're listening to Dolly Parton. And for the half hour that the album lasts, you can become the kind of person who listens to Dolly Parton, like that's part of the fun. And so when you think

about a community, any community needs gatekeeping. Yeah. Sometimes a gatekeeping might be like literally turning people away. And especially if you want it to feel to have some sense of intimacy, some sense of like, oh, mean you have something in common. It's a little different from those people out there. We need some way to distinguish ourselves. And, you know, accents can be one way of doing that. That could be one signal. I use this kind of language. You know, you know, but also vocabulary

and all sorts of things. And so I think that I think that the question of how inclusive or exclusive a community is is a little bit hard to, it's a little bit hard to define because it depends who wants to get in. And, and, you know, you're, and again, the bigger your community is the more you're going to maybe look to charts or other metrics of success to see like what we all agree on. And so yeah, the question of like, it's hard. So yeah, it's hard to even know how you would

rank like does country, is country music more gatekeeper even techno? I don't know, man. Like techno has some rules. And those clubs might be like literally hard to get into, whereas like anyone can buy a ticket to a country music concert. So I think that in country music, yes, there's gatekeeping. But there is, I think more than that, there's a sense of identity. And so the question of what that identity is is obviously extremely vexed in every genre,

including country music. You could look at them not playing Beyoncé, but you'd have to keep in mind, these are the same radio stations that also don't play Taylor Swift because they also don't view Taylor Swift as like really country, but they're happy to play Shibuzi. Can you walk us through this like country music identity? It starts as a kind of disparate thing, right? Country and western, when billboard is doing

separate things, right? You think about the musical traditions of the American southeast. You think about what would be called sometimes hale-billy music. You think about string bands. And then you think about western music, the iconography of cowboys, Texas swing, all sorts of stuff. And that stuff kind of massages together and it becomes

“something with a more specific identity. And in some ways that identity is inclusive, right?”

Because, you know, the idea that someone in Nashville, Tennessee, would wear a cowboy hat,

is a little weird in the first place. There's not a lot of ranches in Nashville, Tennessee.

So the western thing kind of migrates, but it also becomes exclusive in various ways. One way it becomes exclusive is, you know, it's thought of as this is rural music. And a lot of country songs from the beginning of its existence as a genre are about the fact that the singers themselves used to live in some rural place or America used to be rural. And now we've come to the city, which is what creates the country music industry, right? Now we've come to, we're at the Weeling

Jamberry or we're at the Grand Allopry in Nashville, but we remember the way things used to be. So that sense of like we remember how things used to be when things were more rural is a big

“part of the identity of country music as a rural genre. At various points comes to be perceived as a”

southern genre. The western part sort of like fades away a little bit. You know, nowadays you

don't say country and western. You say country. Obviously one of the most fun ones which I've saved until now is it comes to be thought of as a white music. Yeah. And this despite the fact that obviously if you look at the history of country music, there's tons of black musicians who have contributed to this history. Here's the Ford Baylay with the Fox James. And what happens at a certain point is that the genre itself comes to be seen as segregated

in a way that kind of mirrors the segregation of American life. So the white performers from the genre are kind of pulled out towards this thing that gets called country music. And some of the

black performers you might say are excluded from that tradition or are considered more rhythm and

blues. And so you know you have you have Ray Charles making a country album that doesn't necessarily get played on country radio station. So part of the identity of the genre is it's going to be a white genre. And that's a thing that is hard to that's an interesting thing to kind of grapple with because

“I think a lot of people have a reaction when they hear that of like that's really bad. Yeah.”

That it's white. But then you think about R&B, which is thought of as a black genre. Well, Jack Carlos would say otherwise. That's right. We'll come on and check with this extra tall hat. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean obviously I love it when people are playing in a transgressing in that kind of a way. Yeah. But so but generally the idea that R&B music is black music is often talked about is something to celebrate. Yeah. This is a black musical tradition like this is great.

This is something to be proud of. But you know, if you do the math in a country that's what 13% black, if you have black genres, you're also going to have white genres just like mathematically. And so the and so to one way I think about country music is that it's it's almost mathematically necessary if you're going to have some disproportionately black genres in America that in a country that's still whatever it is, 58% non-Hispanic white or something,

you're going to have some disproportionately white genres. And then the question is, well like, how do we think about that? And how do we think about diversity within a genre? And the reason I bring up R&B is because it's a good example of how like we might not want that. We might not look at R&B and be like, wow, that's a shame that it's so many black performers, which it was only 13% black performers. We need some white half percent Hispanic. Yeah. Yeah. So you know, I don't think

it's obvious that musical segregation is bad or is a problem in a genre. One of the things I love about popular music is that it reflects America. Good bad and otherwise. And so to the extent that Americans are living somewhat segregated lives, I would expect and even in a way celebrate the idea that music would reflect that, rather than sugarcoding it, or rather than pretending something different is happening. So yes, country has and still does kind of grapple with its identity

as white music. So yes, you get all these things and you still have this, but you do still have this trace of an accent. Yeah. And when we think of an accent, we kind of think of the country

from Texas have pretty different ways of speaking, especially if you're from one of those places.

In country music, one of the things that happens is that all these different regional musical traditions sort of combine into one sort of all the same, but sort of different mega-tradition, right? You get country music out of all these different regional traditions that exist before it. And so similarly, maybe, and I'm not a linguist, maybe you get something that sort of feels like a country accent. So that when Taylor Swift from outside of Pittsburgh is making country records

and sending them to country radio, she's using a little bit more of a country accent.

And when she starts making records that are more considered or marketed or influenced by

“pop music, you hear less of that. And I think we're talking about music, right? So we're talking”

about singers and we're talking about people using their voice and also using words to create music. So whenever you're turning words into music, the question of how you pronounce those words is going to be an important musical strategy, right? So that the sounds of country music, the sound of a pedal steal or of an electric guitar, maybe we associate that with certain pronunciations, a certain way of dropping a G, a certain way of extending a vowel here or there.

So when you start making that music, I think, I don't want to say naturally. It's hard to know what is or isn't natural, but I think it's inevitable that people would start using that sort of accent. So it feels organic. Yeah, it feels like it's linked to the sort of music you want. Like you're making. And that, you know, this, once you start looking for that, that's everywhere, right? That's like,

“that's like British rock bands in the '60s singing with an American accent, because that's what”

seems to go with rock and roll. And like, if you try to pin down Mick Jagger's accent, you'd be like, whoa, that's not English. And, you know, a certain kind of American draw seemed like it fit with a backbeat and an electric guitar. And so yeah, there is a certain way of having an accent that seems to fit with country music. And I think that as with anything that has to do with music, I think there's a corny way to do it,

and there's a way to do it that doesn't feel that corny. And so obviously part of your job as a singer, as a performer of popular music is not the same corny. That's like, yeah, really important. And there's no rules about how to do it. It's just like the audience is going to decide what does and doesn't feel a little ridiculous. And, you know, and it's fascinating when you see people from other parts of the world, right? You see Shania Twain from Canada.

“You see Keith Urban. Yeah. I believe Born in New Zealand, but spent some time in Australia. Yeah.”

People always get mad if you mess that up. Yeah, let's be careful. But yes, from that part of the world.

And yes, while I personally think it would be fascinating to hear like a Keith Urban record with like a thick accent that suggests Australia in New Zealand. Obviously, he's found a way to do it where it's not corny. He doesn't sound like he's on Hihah, but it fits into other songs you hear on the radio. So it's not jumping out of you of like what's this guy from a different country doing on my radio station. So yeah, people find a way to fit in and hopefully not make it

sound too ridiculous. Obviously, there are moments in popular music where people lean into their local accent, right? And that can be, that can be a musical strategy, right? If you're neat cap and you're not going to wrap all the time in English, we're going to use our Indigenous Irish language. And then in other times, people want to be part of a tradition. So they're delivering lyrics in English. I think a professional linguist could probably write a really interesting paper and probably

has about the use of English in K-pop. And the use of sometimes not quite idiomatic English and maybe there's a specific thing where then like if you're in Katzai or something, you're using a kind of K-pop-ish English to signal that you belong to this K-pop community.

pop music. Yeah, it's just weird sort of, I think there is an interview or there are people

are questioning some of the members of Katzai about like why did you guys use these lyrics and you're like if you didn't write this? My boss is like yeah, it sounds kind of weird to us too, but now it's becoming its own new thing of like, and you see that that's similar, that's like Britney Spears. Yeah, exactly. Maybe one more time. Max Martin, like he didn't know that we don't say that. For those of you who don't know Max Martin is a legendary Swedish producer and songwriter.

He's produced some of the biggest pop hits over the last 30 years, working with Britney Spears,

Taylor Swift, the Backstreet Boys, and more. Hit me one more time. We don't, that's not a thing.

More like, you know, you think of like Backstreet Boys. Yeah, I want to say I want that way. Like what do you talk about? And yes, and if a song becomes big enough, we're like, oh, that's just the language of pop music. Yeah, it becomes its own thing. Yeah. I want to go back to your country music example, because you talk about in your book too, especially early in the country music, of these white artists who are writing, speaking, to just like, hip-hop example, as if they are Black artists in trying to

“use Black Lingo. And I think of the Tom Hanks scene in the new Elvis movie of like, you know,”

zoom into his face is like, he's white. And like, just realization that like, oh, this is not a

Black guy. He talked about sort of like, what was the goal of these artists during that time and you know, these writers in trying to sound Black quote unquote, or, you know, making from Black artists, you know, it's funny. Authenticity is a slippery thing to define, but it's a quality that often people seek out in popular music, but it's not the only quality that people seek out in popular music. You might, you might pair authenticity with something more like relatability,

right? So you hear a voice and you're like, oh, this person's kind of normal. This person's kind of like me, right? Maybe the opposite of that is like, whoa, this person comes really comes from the real, whatever the real is supposed to be. Right? This person represents a very different world from my world. And so, yes, there's certainly moments in American music where, you know, in the Elvis example, maybe to listeners in that moment, a certain kind of rhythm and blues is associated

with Black singers. Like, there was something exciting about a singer who could get close to that.

“You know, you see, maybe some of that with M&M, who M&M was always very careful, I think,”

that he's not doing anything where it sounds like putting on a show exactly, but he's also not necessarily talking the way a white kid from Detroit who wasn't a rapper might talk and like there's certain things he can say and can't say and like, you know, he could say yo and it doesn't sound that weird, but there's maybe other things that he would say that he would sound as if he was leaning into it a little too much. And so, yeah, obviously at various points, there's this moment

in Elvis's career where being perceived as like maybe he's Black could be helpful, but obviously given the demographics of America, it's more often helpful to be perceived as part of the majority group. And it's not a coincidence that Elvis, a white guy, ends up selling a lot or that M&M,

“a white guy ends up selling a lot. And so, I think, and that's something that musicians have to”

have to figure out, right? Like, with my voice like, what am I signaling to people? And often there's a move, I think you often see a move early. If we're talking about this particular thing of like white artists who might be perceived vocally as Black, maybe that's something that happens a little more early in the career. And sometimes there's a move later in the career towards music that seems more authentic or race-appropriate or something. You know, there's some, it's funny, you know,

if you think about like the trajectory of Kid Rock where he starts his career really wanting to be part of this hip-hop suit. And then eventually finds his own identity, which is very much a reclamation of his roots and the music his father listened to and living way outside of the city in Detroit. And literally going to Hulk Williams Jr. shows with his dad. And there is this idea

post-mellon, another great example of this starting with white iris in. Yeah.

To like fully-making country music now. Yeah. And you know, I would imagine and hope he's not done yet. I hope we get a metal core record from him.

“Yeah. Yeah. I know he enjoys that kind of music as well. I think sometimes we forget what it was”

like for us when we were teenagers and trying to figure out like, well, I want to be cool. What is it sound like if I'm cool? What like, like, like, use this word if I use that word. And sometimes in this context, we even talk about appropriation, which I think sometimes, I think sometimes there's

more of it than we realize. Like, there are things that we learn and literally hear from birth

from our parents. But most of the rest of our lives is things that we pick up from our friends. Yeah. From someone else or like, yeah, you didn't come out of the womb. No matter what race you are, you maybe didn't come out of the womb like hip hop or you didn't come out of the womb country. You know, this and so there is a certain idea of like we're forming our identity based on, you know, what sort of feels right. And and as I said with musicians with people it's the same

way where sometimes it can feel corny. We probably all know people that are like trying a little too

hard. And it doesn't necessarily mean that they're trying too hard in a way that transgresses

a racial boundary. Yeah. Yeah. It could be like a white person trying too hard with like a certain identity that we think of as white. Yeah. And so yes, the idea of like trying a little bit but not too hard is something that the musicians definitely do. And yes, so you hear that you hear that with accents. And again, accents are an important musical tool if you're making pop music with your voice.

“And and it's you know, I think you've seen that especially with hip hop where when hip hop goes”

international, it sounds a little different. Like Polish hip hop sounds a little different because the wrapping is in Polish. And so you get different rhythms. You hear that in certainly in the UK. And the rhythms of like black English speech, you know, gives you grime and gives you UK drill. And like literally the beats are different at the way they ride the beats, right? You have rappers being more in the front of the beat rather than riding the back of the beat. And so yeah,

you hear that naturally from the speech patterns. And the fact that the Caribbean influence and West African influence in the UK influences the black British accent, but also means that some of the hip hop has closer relationships to Afrobeats and dancehall Reggae because that's also in the vocal. I like work currently in the era of hip hop that is like at least in the US. Well, mainstream. I only say big claim. I'll say mainstream hip hop. It's become a bit

“flat in terms of regional sounds. I think there are more underground stuff that definitely,”

you know, I talk about Detroit. And there's definitely some more interesting stuff happening that's not in the mainstream. But there was a time when certain radio stations wouldn't play music from different areas, right? So New York radio stations would only play quote-unable New York artists think about this with outcast in the 90s being booed at the source of war. So here's some background for you who are not hip up heads in 1995. Source magazine is this huge New York-based

hip hop magazine. They have an award show based out of New York. And outcast the Atlanta group wins for Best New Artist. In the New York crowd boozed them because at the time New Yorkers aren't interested in hearing music from South for eating a West Coast and Andre Grethausen who's a member of outcast says this infamous line. New York radio stations would not play outcast because they weren't seen as, you know, being cool to New Yorkers. But also this had a lot to do with the economy

and the technical infrastructure like people used to buy their records at stores. So there were distributors that would distribute records in Southwest wholesale or whatever the big distributors

and through terrestrial radio stations. So you'd get hot in your town and then you'd try to expand

outward from your town and literally in a pre-internet age you're just listening to a different radio station in New York that someone is in Houston or in Atlanta or in Orlando. And so yeah, it was just like it was literally different radio stations, different record stores, different compact discs, and also different people. So you know, that guy you knew from high school that became a rapper is going to sound very different if you're in the Bay Area versus if you're in Philadelphia.

So yeah, like every, like a lot of things in American life, it was very fragmented. Like it was,

“it's, I think it's hard, I think it's probably hard for younger people to even understand like”

it was hard to get those albums. Like I would mail order those albums because there's all this crazy down south stuff happening and we're not getting it in New York. No, so yes, there was a time when the hip-hop world was a lot more fragmented and you know, obviously at the time the artists, it was cool that they could sort of make a living, but they were, it was frustrating to the artist. They're like, how come, how do I break through? I want to be bigger. And so yeah,

there was this idea of fragmentation and because hip-hop is so closely based on the rhythms of spoken language, you get like different beat patterns based on different on different accents and

different slang and different vocabulary. And so yeah, you get this incredible diversity where

the music sounds different based on the local slang and the local speech patterns. Is that diversity in the sounds of a genre unique to hip-hop for such a young genre? You would imagine that everything would sound kind of similar and before it started to break out, but in other genres

“as they kind of first were formed, did you get that level of fragmentation? I think hip-hop is really”

good at taking like vernacular culture and turning it into music, right? So you have this incredible diversity underneath which is maybe a little bit different if you have like a guitar based genre where everyone's got to learn guitar and then yeah, the licks might be a little different and these people play the, the straticaster and these people play the telecaster and like, uh, and you do hear some diversity, but yes, I think hip-hop, one of the great strengths of hip-hop

was that there was this incredible, untapped linguistic richness in all these different communities

where before hip-hop, it was just maybe guys who would be just like telling stories, I'm a foreigner and everyone in the neighborhood would be like yeah, that guy's really funny or like they were just gather, that guy's a good storyteller or that guy's got good jokes, but it didn't have a way to travel outside the neighborhood. So one of the things that hip-hop did really well was it took this thing

“to felt really local and and blew it up and I think even now a lot of the best hip-hop sounds”

really local, there's something, there's something really seductive about the idea of like, oh, I'm in this person's world and you know, this is what it's like when you're like with NBA young boy and his crew and this is the Baton Rouge vibe and I can hear that in the music in a way that feels really unmediated and direct. Well, I felt like that might have been at the core of the whole, I mean the Drake Kendrick or he Kendrick makes music that is so

personal and intimate sounding where I was Drake and I'm a Drake Apologist obviously but it's like based on the song it could sound like it's from anywhere in the country and so I think there's that level of authenticity in Kendrick's music where it's like oh this is clearly his life. Yeah, although you know it was it's funny it was kind of later in Kendrick's career that he really started to lean into the sounds of LA hip-hop, you know what I mean like the early records

when he was considered like little more conscious or something maybe had a little less geographical specificity. Yeah, so one of the interesting things that happened was that, you know, over the years and then especially at that like not like us moment, you got something that felt very specific to LA. Yeah, right. Yeah, I'm chipping, I'm sliding, I'm running back like buck. Must have one of the holes. Yeah, got mustard, he's going to bring the whole city together and if you're from LA,

you're like part of Kendrick's crew and that's not exactly the feeling you got and Drake is is interesting in a different way, right? Because he has this relationship with Houston and he has

oh, there's something cool going on halfway around the world, right? I think one dance by Drake

“is like one of those songs that sort of like is so prescient, so influential, right?”

Think about like the whole Afrobeats movement that comes after the success of one dance and the fact that Drake was able to hear, oh, this African thing and it's kind of got a Caribbean feel which we have in Canada, but it's also this interesting other UK London Lagos thing that's happening. Yeah, so yes, I think and the idea and you know, at various times, you know, there's obviously some videos where you hear Drake talking and it's got like a thick Canadian accent, yeah, like oh yeah, right. Oh, we're a look

around, look around, look at this, we created this, this didn't exist before we are here, look around at the square, I promise you right now, we did this, doesn't matter what anybody says, they could say

it's disrespectful, they could say it's this and that, but part of his skill was this thing that

traditionally rappers weren't supposed to do, which was he can kind of like move around and he can

“borrow sounds from different regions and you know, in the old days that might have seemed in authentic,”

but you know, Drake's success, it's sort of made hip-hop fans think a little differently about authenticity, right? He's like you're wearing a sweater, like so what? I'm going to say it feels like the slider is changing now, right? You're talking about these two sort of like knobs, there's like does it sound good and is it quote unquote authentic and I feel like now in hip-hop, it's really like does it sound good? People don't really care about authenticity, that much

authenticity as long as the person feels like it's like it's cool, but authenticity can mean so many

different things, right? It can mean like, do you have credibility in your neighborhood? Like it

might live in hip-hop, traditionally one thing it's meant is like can you put on your jewelry and walk down the street? Yeah, right? That's a kind of authenticity, but obviously another kind of authenticity is like does this music reflect who you really are? Does this feel like you? Do we feel like we're getting to know you? And that's a maybe a more traditional pop kind of authenticity where you're communicating through the music and what people want is a sense that they can make

a kind of personal connection with you and that it's less about necessarily like what's your reputation in the neighborhood and it's more like does this highly artificial thing you're doing

“into a microphone somehow feel honest? And I think that kind of that's a kind of authenticity too”

and that's really important, right? And then kid gets that from Tyler the creator and it has nothing to do with like oh is Tyler the creator a tough guy or not? No, I'm getting to know this person and his worldview and he doesn't seem like anyone else and I'm really getting a sense. This is really his point of view that's not some guy in an office telling him to make this type of music. But I think also we've kind of like we sort of hinted at but not really talked about one of the

things that I think a lot of people think about when it comes to accents which is diversity in geographical diversity and this idea that a lot of people have that we're so much more connected now we can hear each other now is some of that geographic diversity maybe going away. And it's interesting when you look at the studies of this there is some sign of that but the asterisk as far as I can tell is that that's happening more within races than between races.

There is some there's some research to suggest that black and white speech patterns are actually getting further apart but that within white speech patterns in America some of the regional variety is disappearing right like the classic New York accent maybe even the classic Boston accent and then within black speech patterns some of that geographic diversity is disappearing but the black and white are diverging and there would also be that would be confounded also by class.

A lot of times you have more regional variation among working class people and if there's more if a higher percentage of black people are working class than white people then you would you would expect more speech diversity among black people in the US to begin with than white people and so but even when you think about culture like the ways in which the internet in some ways does have a leveling effect but it also enables the creation of these weird niches and communities

and you know whatever whatever you can think of there's a community devoted to it and probably a sub community of people who find it sexually arousing right like and so the idea that people can find these groups the internet feels often and social media feels like it's doing both at once it's kind of connecting everyone but it's also enabling the creation of these communities and so that's something that work kind of starting only is really starting to figure out is like

how much regional variety is there gonna be in accents in ten years and 20 years and you know

countries not just in the UK where some of the same stuff is happening some of the regional variety

is maybe declining a little bit but then of course you also have British accents that are influenced by African languages, by Indian languages and then you have these kind of like international versions of English that are emerging because you have so many people using English to communicate for whom maybe that's not their native language and so you have these different some of them are Creoles and some of them are maybe not quite Creoles so you have that and then you have that

happening with other languages right you're having you think about um the different accents within Spanish speakers in the Americas and you know these moments where an English speaker might not notice of like oh that's bad bunny doing kind of a Dominican accent so like tip is tap to demo music you know from from the home of a reggae tone or something

“I think we could be having this same conversation in Spanish with people talking about like how”

come everyone who does reggae tone has to front like they're from Puerto Rico even when they're yeah I think different accents are going to continue to be linked to different genres right you think about reggae and like just about anyone who starts singing reggae whether it's something more rootsy and more dancehall is going to do something that's like a little bit of an accent you're going to hear a little even if you're Jason Moraz or something

right because those are the rhythms in the music so that's going to bring out the rhythms in the speech so I think that that's something that's definitely going to continue and that you hear again not just in country not just you know you hear that in you know if you're listening to Blink 182 and you're like is that a call it like Tom's voice is that a California version of an English version of an American accent let's talk a little bit about we touched on it

and to all these other genres but just like pop music more generally you know talking about like a Harry Styles or a Dell and this idea of you know these UK artists singing and you know a quote unquote American accent would you attribute that to like you're saying this is just like what we associate with you know quote unquote pop music and how it should sound like or do you think it's a purposeful like you know a Dell's talking voice is very different than her singing voice

I don't know that maybe she would be as big if she's singing her you know talking voice I would love to hear it too but I don't know if it would have a wide of an appeal Traditionally hip-hop is unusual right because hip-hop there really is the expectation that the talking voice and the rapping voice rap a little closer to talking so it's going to match

yeah singing is always going to be like it's not necessarily opera where like you open your mouth

it avoids your singing in Italian it's a whole different thing but there is more of a separation between singing a song you're stretching out the words yeah and doing an interview and so

“and yeah I think you know a Dell is making music that's influenced by a particular tradition”

whether it's you know Whitney Houston or whoever her influences and that's an American tradition it's partly a black American tradition and so you're hearing that in her voice you know Harry Styles is kind of interesting because like you're hearing some of the American boy bands but you're also hearing you know some Beatles some of that Paul McCartney and some of that stuff which is you know influenced by America

but but routed through the UK so yeah I think that you're definitely again for most of these singers I think it's pretty intuitive it's not like they have a plan it's like they go into studio and they start feeling it and they start vibing and they're listening to their favorite records and what comes out sounds a little bit like their version of their favorite records

“um like I think because I love hip-hop I'm a sucker for vernacular and for local languages”

and from music where the rhythms are different because of the local language right but again one thing that popular music does is find what used to be called the lowest common denominator

it used to always be said with a sneer and I never understood why I'm like you mean the thing

that appeals to the most people yeah like and so often that means doing something that's a little bit less peculiar and and feels a little bit more maybe neutral so that when you're listening to a Dell whether you're in America or India or you know whether in Yugoslavia or Indonesia like you're kind of hearing the song and you're not thinking too much about her specific neighbor. So we'd say in this case like the American accent is the neutral.

accent and class is a lot more sophisticated than here and so you have all these fights about

BBC and you see pronunciation of the idea of like you know the Queen's English the King's English and you know the idea that certain accents are related to class and that if you're putting that on that could be embarrassing the same way we might consider certain racial

“accent transgressions to be embarrassing and I think also pop music is so powerful and”

seeps into our lives that a big enough song a big enough artist can change what we think of as the normal accent. You know you think about the way that moment in the 1980s where people discovered so-called Valley Girl's speech patterns. So I could go into the place for one place in

here and I want to get my turn outside and more lady like us and my god your turn is like so

Brody and like that sort of makes its way into popular music and you know by the time you hear Katie Perry singing California girls yeah you're maybe hearing an echo of that and again part of the fun of pop music is make believe. Whether we're listening to like some drill track or listen to like a mainstream pop song part of the fun of it is like you could learn the lyrics maybe in the privacy of your own car you can sing along and you can like be that

person a little bit and I think that's something you don't have with movies in the same way you can you can memorize movie dialogue but there is something about popular music where you can kind of become that person. Yeah and sometimes sometimes sometimes an accent might seem like a barrier to that but sometimes an accent might be part of the fun. All right that was Kay writer and critic at the New Yorker if you enjoyed this conversation check

“out his book major labels available anywhere purchase books or if you want to be like me you”

could write it at your book library. Well now I'm interested which one of you has the strongest accent probably Devin I would vote Devin yeah wow I think so this is like the this American life episode where they all got their testosterone tested that's also probably Devin yeah yeah more no such thing after the break. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting think again more Americans listen to podcasts

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the skits the reactions my journey from basketball to college football or my career in sports media well somewhere along the way this platform became bigger than I ever imagined and now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast the Clifford show this is a place for raw unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators and voices that not only deserve to be heard but celebrated one week I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments

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always get told and for people who are chasing something bigger so if you've ever supported me

“or you're just chasing down a dream this is right what you need to be listen to the Clifford show”

on the i-hard radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and for more behind the scenes follow @ Clifford and a TikTok podcast network on TikTok okay we're back I'm Annie noah devan all right so it was okay learned a lot yeah really fun conversation I felt like you know I was a bag in school you know yeah yeah yeah kind of shooting

about so people we should make a playlist for this episode yeah yeah people love the playlist

“a lot of I'm sure I'm looking at the clicks and people are listening yeah I'm sure all 10 of you”

yes it's scroll down but what I was trying to think about you know after you know we've had that conversation I guess a week ago now and during that time I've been trying to think through harder any examples we talked a lot about you know people sort of like playing a different playgrounds and sort of like just wearing different hats so it was like who's the last person that we know who's gotten like sort of like negative backlash for doing a thing that is like not what we

would think of as authentic to them yeah mr. Harlow mr. Jack Harlow yeah and now he's wearing

kangel hats it's like give me a fucking break so for for those of you who are not online

in a way that us three are Jack Harlow is a white rapper grew up outside of him and say

“Louisville can tucky what's part of it brand new with just how I got options I can pass it”

miss like stuck and he has decided on this new album that he's put out he got bored of his rapping so he wanted to make a R&B album part of I feel like some in a conversation around this album is really about the conversation he had on New York Times popcast which is gonna be the podcast and which they were talking to him about you know like we talked about earlier in this episode a lot of white artists who come up

in summer you know like hip hop often pivot to white or genres johnson you didn't retreat into a white or genre in fact you arguably went into deeper into the black music yeah a deeper into black so is that was that conscious absolutely because you like pushing that boundary that line I think I love black music I love the sound of black music yeah so Jack Harlow puts out this R&B album there's a little bit of backlash and the fact that he's caused playing as kind of like a

little bit of a black guy you know both and is you know like sort of the promo for the album in terms of like is what he's wearing yeah yeah my issue with it is just it's just not very good like it's kind of just like a boring moment's not interesting yeah he talks about you know and his interviews like he didn't do any like voice train or like you know it's just sort of I'm like so what did you do to prepare to make this R&B album you know it's like but that's an interesting

“question is the only thing stopping you from kind of respecting this for a lack of a better”

word is that it's not good like what if the what if the music was good and catchy yeah one

minus one yeah because I feel like well yeah because I feel like I was never a huge head but Mac Miller

yeah he's kind of moved into more of an R&B space yeah I feel like true and and granted I don't think he was ever like I mean obviously very successful but it's successful in a different way where I feel like more respected I guess than Jack Harlow and I'm wondering why exactly even though he did change his sound but not in a he even get like wider in you know not that you know in the same generally the same way or direction as what we're seeing now well here's a maybe a weird way to end

this episode but I think it does speak to this who just came in the mind also maybe because he's a friend of Jurisky but Timothy Shalame right for Marisa Prem he was promoting this latest film this you know Oscar nominated film and to get people to go see it he was doing a lot of things that people saw as like black coded he was leaning into his you know wager you know wagerness you can say and there is a little bit of backlash online of like Timothy like you're doing this rapping thing

you're you know you're hanging out with Drew Ski you're being a little too quote unquote black really I'm just a fan you know I'm a fan of of black culture and hip-hop and all of it and how could you be you know a child of American culture without being influenced by it so it's a fine line and that rubbed people a bit the wrong way because they didn't feel like it was authentic to who he was and there was people defending him saying hey he grew up in New York around black people he's been

rapping you know who has rapping super bass in high school you know like he's been down with the cause but there was this conversation about like authenticity or are you putting on a costume when it's gonna be for you well yeah then it's like that's the code switching thing because then when you're sitting down to

where it's like it's so transparent in that way and I don't think it's like conscience conscious in a

certain way of course but I don't think you know I don't think he and like his team sat down we're like okay

“when you go to this do this it's like I think comes easy to him and granted he's an actor you know but”

yeah yeah I guess it's not as like manipulative as it might sound yeah yeah cause like malicious I guess is my my thinking I agree I'm also from you know I grew up in a very poor low income neighborhood that was like 50% white and 50% black and those white guys do exist like yeah totally like and then they'll go to college and like you know kind of straighten up a little bit but I could totally

see why some people were skeptical because he does come like if you're first introduction to

Timothy's helmet was like prestige actors yes and then you same doing this yeah what you really need to just go back to those YouTube videos from him in high school that's it for today's show if you are a new listener you may want to check out our episode on is Taylor Swift bigger than Michael Jackson it is number 36 I'm gonna link to it in the show notes and also just check out our whole archive we got a lot of great episodes they're all pretty evergreen so you can

make your way through it no such thing as a reduction of kaleidoscope content our executive producers are Kate Osborne and Minges how to cut her the show is created by Manifetel no recruitment in

me Devon Joseph the incredible song by Mani mixing by Steve Bone additional music for this episode

by Zeno Peter Ely our guest this week was California from the New Yorker thank you Kay visit nocess thing not showed to subscribe to our newsletter if you have feedback for us or a question you want us to answer you can email us at Mani know what [email protected] we'll be back next when it's a one that's me Clifford Taylor the fourth you might have seen the skits my basketball and college football journey or my career in sports media will now I'm bringing all

of that excitement to my brand new podcast the Clifford Show this is a place for raw unfills of conversations with athletes creators and voices that not only deserve to be heard but celebrated so let's get to it listen to the Clifford Show on the iHeart Radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast and for more behind the scenes follow @ Clifford and @Tiktok podcast network on TikTok on the look back at it podcast next in 1999 that was a big moment

for me 84 is big to me i'm Sam Jay and i'm Alex Eglish each episode we pick a here unpack what went down and try to make sense of how we survived it with our friends federal comedians and favorite others like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s

“I don't think there's a more important year for black people listen to look back at it”

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listen to superhuman on the iHeart Radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts hey it was good you're listening to learn the hard way with your favorite therapist or host care games this space is about black men's experiences having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing how many men carry a suit or arm it it seems to the world that you

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