Jefferson Fisher: The #1 Communication Mistake People Make in Arguments (Do THIS Before You Respond to Instantly Lower Tension)

I'm Clayton Nackard, and 2020, too.

I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor.

“But here's the thing, Bachelor fans hated him.”

If I could press a button and rewind it all I would, that's when his life took a disturbing turn. A one-night stand would end in a courtroom. The media is here. This case has gone viral. The dating contract.

Agreed to date me, but I'm also suing you. This is unlike anything I've ever seen before. I'm Stephanie Young. Listen to the love trapped on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

The arguments are not something to win. The person in front of you isn't fighting you. They are fighting to feel understood by you.

“How do we communicate with someone who doesn't want to communicate with us?”

The people who will use silence as a country. That to me is the number one sign of low emotional intelligence. Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. The place you come to become the happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's guest is someone that I've been looking forward to having in the seat.

Ever since I came across this content on social media, I knew I had to have a conversation with him. Today's guest is Jefferson Fisher, a trial lawyer turned a communication expert who's simple, practical tools have helped millions handle conflict with more calm and clarity.

Jefferson is known for breaking down the exact words to use in real life moments when emotions run high. His book, The Next Conversation, argue less talk more is already changing the way people navigate arguments, boundaries, and difficult conversations.

I'm excited to welcome to On Purpose, Jefferson Fisher. Jefferson, it's great to have you here.

Okay, thanks for having me. Yeah, I mean, I really, you know, when I first came across your

content on Instagram, I think it was, I just thought it was so clear, it was so concise, and I feel communication is one of these underrated skills that we all use all the time. We all need it in every part of our lives. Yet no one taught us how to do at school or anywhere. Yeah. And I wanted to ask you what has communication unlocked for you in your life

and for the people that you help in a way that nothing else could. It's unlocked a life of peace for me. You know, a lot of people say you sound very calm. Well, it's because I've been through a lot of hard, and that means a lot of hard communication, a lot of hard conversations. The greater tolerance I have for difficult conversations, the greater relationships

I'm going to have in my life. For me, communication has helped me be a better husband, a better father, a better friend, in ways that only communication can do, and you're right. We go through our whole season of growing up, going to high school, going to college, and I'll send you get married, and then you look at the person next, and you go, oh, yeah, I have to talk to you. I have to talk at work. I have to manage people.

How do I, how do I do that? That's a skill of communication that is, it is learned. It is not just gifted. Well, you just said that you are a good communicator because you've had a lot of tough conversations and hard conversations. I think most of us, we avoid tough and hard conversations. We don't even want to go there, and we don't want to get into a tough discussion with our partner, or we don't want to get into a difficult discussion with our boss. So we're trying our best to just

“navigate away from, and we think that's what good communication is. Why would you encourage people”

to meet difficult and tough conversations head on? If you don't, the bill always comes due.

The bill always comes due. You're going to have that difficult conversation at the very end when you're at your witsend, or you may never have it at all because there's going to be something in your life that happened that they're not going to be here anymore, and what should have been said, that opportunity was lost. We avoid the difficult because we avoid the, the angst that we feel. But yet, when we choose to have the difficult conversation and we get on the

other end of it and realize, oh, wait, I'd, life didn't fall apart. Oh, wait, I'm still here. Oh, wait, they chose to accept me. Wait, they didn't run away. It's, it's a feeling that that can't be replaced when you realize you can be more vulnerable with this person. You can go deeper with this person. Think of the people on your life that you're the closest with. They're the people who've seen you're ugly. You know, the hard stuff, the messy stuff. And when you can have

that kind of capacity for each other in communication and conversation, you're only going to to grow. Well, I think that's the thing, right? Like the reason we're scared of having a tough conversation is because we're scared of the outcome. And so we've already predicted that I don't want to have that conversation because they're going to break up with me. I don't want to have that

I might get fired or I might get looked over for that promotion. How do we approach tough conversations without an inherent belief of it being a negative result? It's the understanding that

“it's not my job to feel somebody else's feelings for them. That's what you do when you're”

afraid to disappoint someone. You're afraid to say the hard thing, the, the right thing. You'd

rather be nice. You'd rather say the, the thing that sounds good. Those kind of things always

have a bitter taste because you realize I'm not being real. I'm not being authentic. And before you know it, you've just been people pleasing. Before you know it, you feel less than yourself. Before you know it, you feel lost and you really don't know who you are. And now you're in your mid 40s and you have a crisis and you go, what is my purpose on life here? Because I've been living it to serve everybody else's needs not for what's true and authentic in my life. I'm trying to think

of someone I was speaking to this week. I was speaking to someone they said, they're going through a tough romantic situation and dating someone and they scared that if they share how they feel, they may push the other person away. Talk to me about that. Number one, it's a valid fear. I'm not

“going to say that fear isn't valid. I think anybody here that go, well, that's certainly understandable.”

What if they don't? It's always the what if they do. Oh, okay. Let's assume that they do. What happens

next? If they do, you push them away. What happens? It's seeing that your life isn't going to fall apart. Now if I come into the conversation and I am not trying to sugarcoat it and if I'm not trying to make it to where I'm only saying things to play at you to make you feel good and not being genuine, I've already set up the conversation and I've set up the relationship on fake. I'm just giving you a mask. I'm giving you a character of what I can tell is going to appease you.

I'm going to be the hero. I'm going to be the fixer. I'm going to be the happy one. I'm going to be the one who's always bubbly and can never be sad and you give them a character when you choose not to be authentic in the conversation. So the thought of, if I do this, I'm going to push them away. And if you do, what happens? That's really what the fear is. Am I enough by myself? That's the underlying fear. When you realize, I can be enough without them. All those fears go away.

“Yeah, that's what we're all working towards, I feel. Am I enough? Am I enough? And it's so interesting.”

That's exactly what I was talking to that person. I said, you know, after you have that conversation, whether you choose not to, I think self-love needs to be worked on either way because it's right. That's the root of it. What do you feel you've been doing this for some time? You come from the legal world. What's the number one communication mistake you see people making today? The one that I make to is you think that what is said is exactly what's heard,

especially in relationships. How many times in a relationship have they kind of repeat it back what you said? Well, you said. That's not what I said. But I didn't sound like that. That's not how I said it. And you start arguing, yeah, you did. Yeah, you did. And I go, I wish I had this recorded. You know, I wish this I had this on camera that you could have seen back how you just spoke to me. And instead, we just, we start fighting over how I said it. The better way to go is to say,

what did you hear? What did, what did you hear? Oh, okay. That's, that's not at all what I meant. Can, can I have a, let me, let me redo that. That's not at all what I meant. Instead, we just, we split the conversation into something that has nothing to do with what you, the original source. So the number one communication that fault that I see is assuming that what is said is exactly what is heard. When you ask the question, what did you hear? Whether it's even in business

or in relationships, you always get a different perspective that makes the connection that much

stronger. That is such a great answer. It's such a great answer. I did that. Me and my wife did that exact, not we didn't do the exercise as consciously, but we went through that same exact thing recently. We were working on the gym together. We're having a conversation. We heard each other totally differently, misjudz tones. I was like being loud because there was music on. She took that as like I was a bit like, you know, a bit triggered or whatever it was. And then we sat down and we

talked about it. And that's exactly the conversation we had. I was like, I did not sound like that. I just like, yeah, you did. And you know, and then you, and then you realize that you're so right, you end up splitting the conversation and you end up arguing about something that you weren't even arguing about. Yes. And that's the worst part because you end up creating something that is now an issue that wasn't even an issue in the first place. Absolutely. And it ends up that you will

prove yourself wrong. I mean, when you say, no, this is exactly how I said it. We don't even really

you don't know. And so we are terrible judges of our subjective expressions. It's like, no, that's not how I said it. No, that's not what it's, that's not how I said it. No, yes, you did.

“Yeah. And so that, that is to me, it's, if you want to know somebody that has strong”

emotional intelligence, it's how quick they get to asking for a reset. How quick they get to saying, that's not my intention. My intention was this. Yeah. Okay. I can see that. The quicker that you get to that, that's somebody who says, I'm okay being wrong. What does it take for

someone who always thinks they're right to open up to the idea that they might be wrong?

The person in front of you isn't fighting you. They're fighting to be understood by you. They're fighting to feel understood by you. When somebody's clamped up and you have to say, you need to change your opinion. You need to change your opinion. Your right, I'm wrong. That's not going to happen. You can't just wish for that. Instead, if I were to say to you, listen, I'm not here to change your mind, Jay. This is what I believe. You hear how just me saying that,

all of a sudden opens up that curiosity of, well, maybe I do want to change my mind. I don't really know. But if I were to say, how can you possibly think that you, you really think that that person is

“the person you should be voting for, you think that, and as soon as I get into criticism,”

the more I tell you that you're wrong, the more convinced you'll be that you're right.

Because most likely, if I want you to change your mind, and I say that you're wrong about something, Jay, I'm not just saying, you're wrong. I'm saying that you're why strong. Your dad's wrong. Your parents are wrong. Your grandmother is wrong. That thing that you went to when you were a kid, that's a big crystallizing moment in your life that that set your belief system is all wrong. And it's become part of the identity. And so instead of me fighting, I think I'm fighting an opinion.

I'm not. I'm fighting now. Your identity. And people will go to the ends of the earth. They will close off everything. They will box through ears to prevent having to change one

second of their identity. Why? Because that change feels extremely scary. That's why evidence

doesn't work. When you show people statistics on things, how can you possibly believe this? And they go, I just, no, it doesn't matter. They will justify it. They will flip it. They will find ways to to take what supports them or inject anything that that doesn't. It's because it's now

“part of their identity. So if you want to change somebody's mind, but when you have to validate them,”

to you can't argue against the identity. You have to argue against the value. You get to find the value, speak to the value. And three understand that one conversation is generally not enough. If you want to change their mind, it takes years. It takes months. And the bigger the belief, the more time it's going to take. Yeah, I can agree more. I think I'm sure you hit this a lot as well. I hear a lot of people, especially people who would read our books, listen to our conversations,

follow us on social media. A lot of people want to have conversations with their partners, what their parents or a sibling, but they don't find that that person wants to communicate about that topical theme or subject. Yeah. So how do we communicate with someone who doesn't want to communicate with us? Because often that could be our partner or parent or someone that we love deeply. And we want to talk to them about something meaningful, but they don't really

even want to engage. Is it possible? It's possible. I get a lot of questions of people who are estranged from usually adult children. There's, you know, their 30 year old son doesn't want to talk to his mom or a daughter who doesn't want to talk to her dad and they haven't spoken in three years. And every time I have that kind of conversation, it breaks my heart because you can tell and look at this parent, they want to have a conversation with their child. And you know,

do you down? So does that, that child? They need that relationship. How do you, how do you crack that code? What I've found most successful in what I teach them is I begin with saying, "I know. I'm not. And I'm open." And it sounds like this. "I know. There's distance between us. I know. Things aren't how we both want them to be. I know. I've messed up." Whatever that is, you're saying what is a given. Two is, "I'm not. I'm not asking to change your

mind. I'm not asking for an apology. I'm not asking for whatever it is. What they think, that's what you're after. And three is, "I'm open. I'm open to a conversation. I'm open and

of saying, "The conversation is here." And sometimes that's not enough. They're not going to do it.

“And in that case, what I like to say is, then you have to live out the conversation. And understand”

that if you can't be a bridge, be a lighthouse. If they don't want to come across to me and they burn the bridge, well then they're at least going to know where I am. And they're going to know what I stand for. And they're going to see the light that I'm going to try to bring, even if they don't want to talk. I know I'm not, I'm open. Yeah. I really like that. I really really like that, especially the I'm not. Right, exactly. It's like that's such an important one because I feel like half the time

it's like, I know we're not where we want to be, but I'd love it if you. You got it? Yeah, exactly. They're waiting for the, you know, I know there's this, but you just, you know, and they're

expecting, who's going to apologize first? I think that that for relationships and family,

you know, the hard stuff, it becomes this petty fight over, well, I'm not doing anything till they apologize. And well, okay, you do it at your own peril. Then say goodbye to it. Say goodbye to it because they both dug in their heels and nobody's going to change. And let somebody decides to do something different. And when you can just change the narrative by 1% and say, I'm going to go off on a legend, do something different. I've seen more relationships come back together. I've seen

more people come back and say, thank you so much. I were actually going to meet up for coffee. She's coming to Christmas this year. Oh my gosh, like that. What what is life not about, if not that? I really hope everyone is listening and watching, you know, tries that out. But you do that so well. You know, I've seen that with, you'll say, "When's the last time you talked to somebody?" Grab your phone. Call them now. Yeah. Call them now.

Why, why wait? We have to wait to be ready. Call them now. And when you choose to do something different, you choose to be the first. They say, oh, I'm tired of being the bigger person. Well, that's that's life. Then you do it with the understanding that things are not going to be different unless

something is different. Yeah. Yeah, I always come back to what is the outcome that I want. Yeah.

I give the outcome I want is for this person and know how I feel. Then I might have to be the bigger person. I might have to be first. I might have to be apologetic. I might have to be more compassionate. But if that serves my ultimate goal, which is this person knows how I feel, then I should be willing to become anything. That's right. But if my goal is to set a boundary and not let someone cross it, right. Then I may actually even have to become more guarded. I may have to become more reserved.

I don't have to. I have to become all these other things. And then you say, oh, but I don't want to be reserved. But it's like, but that serves your goal. Absolutely. And so you've got to know what your objective is or what your goal is of any conversation. I know you talk about how

“winning is never the goal of any argument. Even though that's what we all think.”

Yeah, especially being an attorney, people are like it and how much it's supposed to do. And it's not that's just not that it's not to truth. It's not like it is on TV. You will lose cases. In fact, if you haven't tried, if you have a loss of case, you haven't tried enough cases. This is what they say in the attorney world. Because I can't choose the law that applies. I can't choose my clients. Facts. You have to play the cards that you're dealt with,

how advocated is different. What I teach is arguments are not something to win. There's something to unravel. You find not in conversations. And law, there's this thing called the jury instructions, meaning at the very end of the trial. Let's say you've had two weeks worth of evidence. You had openings, all your emotions,

and you're finally at the end, and the jury's about to go back and make a decision on something.

They have a document called the jury instructions. And it's written out who's responsible. This person, this person, they do this. Yes or no. They add percentages. They might add money. Whatever it is. It is this document that controls the ultimate outcome of the entire case. And good attorneys start with the jury instructions when they first get a new file. Bad attorneys wait to the very end. Same way in relationships.

Like you mentioned, if I know where the goal is, everything else becomes fluff. Everything else becomes irrelevant. So what? If they said that thing two years ago that you could bring up. So what? If they said it a way that they rolled their eyes, can you have a little bit more

“emotional resilience to understand what's happening in that moment to not be clouded by the forest?”

The trees through the forest, to be able to see what's happening in our life. So start with your end, have a goal for the conversation. And make sure if I could say with you, let's say you and I are often, I say, I know we're about to have a difficult conversation and I want you to know,

abandon you in it? I'm not trying to push something at you? And when you are able to slow it down and see arguments is not something to win, but something to unravel, you find so much more in the connection. I'm Clayton Knackard and in 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor.

Unfortunately, it didn't go according to plan. He became the first bachelor to ever have his final

rose rejected. The internet turned on him. If I could press a button and rewind it all I would. But what happened to Clayton after the show? Made even bigger headlines. It began as a one night stand and ended in a courtroom, with Clayton at the center of a very strange paternity scandal. The media is here. This case has gone viral. The dating contract. A great a date me, but I'm also suing you. This is unlike anything I've ever seen before.

I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. This season, an epic battle of he said she said, and the search for accountability in a sea of lies. Listen to Love Trapped on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you've been with someone for long enough, they're going to end up saying something that would trigger you. Or that will get down. Yeah, and if you've been to someone's stuff, yeah. When your partner says

something that triggers you, what do you do? You tell them in a way that communicates at that it sinks in. If something is said to me by a sear and it triggers me, one is there is a mindset to

“me in any relationship that you have to have. This is a place where I can be messy. This is a place”

where I don't have to be my best. Of all the places to be, this should be the safest for me. Now, if it's intentional, this person meant to trigger you, then what I like to do is ask the question, did you mean? Did you mean for that to upset me? Did you mean for that to hurt me? You find out real quick if they really did. Because sometimes people say things they don't mean.

Not sometimes they always do. Yeah. And if you find that you can't even slow down enough to have

the discussion of this is what hurt me. You know that this triggers me. I think there's also a difference if they know that it does and they're using it as a weapon. But that reaches trust. Versus they didn't know it. And now you need to explain why this reminds you of that time when you were a kid that is setting you off and you're not really sure how to how to deal with it. So when it comes to being triggered, you first have to slow everything down. I mean, I'm going to talk slower.

I'm going to lower my volume rather than getting amped up. And I'm going to let them know that something else is coming up for me more than what you said. And if you're in a committed relationship that they want to understand you, that's a conversation you're going to have.

“And I think the natural reaction when someone says something that triggers us is either to say”

something that triggers them back. Yeah. Even if it was unconscious in the first place, or we kind of rush to defend ourselves. Which seemed like very natural human instincts. How do we build that slowness that patients, that stillness that's required to actually create connection as opposed to do the human thing which is defend ourselves and prove our worth and show it right. How do I didn't even get into that pocket? Your first word has to be your breath

in those moments. When someone says something we don't like, we, and we get up like that. We suck it in, but we don't let it out. Instead, our breath comes out when we're yelling. We're raising our voice. When you start to yell and somebody says you're yelling and you go, I'm not yelling because you know deep down. That's exactly what you're doing. If you find that you don't know how to

slow it down, your breath always comes first so that you can actually breathe. There's a difference

between if you say something that's hurtful and I immediately go, "Me?" Okay, Jake. What about you?

“You don't remember that time that you really want to, you're going to, that's for it. That's funny.”

You want to say this to me and I start right out you. Versus, if I give it five to seven seconds of nothing, meaning I'm in a breath and I'm just going to let your words fall to the ground. Is if I go, you sure you go with that? That, that what you said is that what you really want to

less times where the person who said the hurtful thing and you know what, I've been that person

“too. Where you say, or they say, I, I, I shouldn't have said that before you had to say anything.”

I, what I, what I meant to say was, or that, that was too far. That's allowing you to look more controlled and more confident in that conversation. And all of a sudden when it's like this instead of it slowly begins like this, just by the silence of understanding, hearing their words echo

back with draws that, that's thing. It does, it never stings as bad. Yeah, I like the,

let your breath become your first word, that's great. Yeah. And it's such a, it feels like again, it keeps going back to that idea of, if you think every conversation and you write about this right at the beginning of the book, if you think every conversation is about winning and about being right, the goal is so skewed. Yeah. That you can't possibly take a breath because to you, you're just losing. Right. The breath is just losing time. It's losing. Yes. Energy is losing momentum. It's just losing.

“And so again, it goes back down to how do we need to really reframe our mindset to say,”

not every conversation is about winning and being right. Conversations are about understanding and seeing someone and connecting and finding a common ground. And it's just not how we're wired. No, it's, it's not how we're wired. It takes discipline. It takes real discipline. When I hear people take a breath before they respond, I know it's about to come out as has a much more heavy footing to it. If you were to just ask me, you know, how was your day?

Or how are you doing it? I'm like, good, good. I'm great. Everything's good. And I have that quick response. And if you instead were to ask me, how was your day? And I went, I'm good. Yeah, I'm good. Now, what's the difference? Same thing. I just, I use my breath. I slow it down. I call my nervous system. And as a secondary benefit, I also calm down yours. Yeah. And so most of the time, when you feel that rise coming, you have to slow down the conversation. So that to me, the hotter the fire burns,

“the more you have to spread out the cold. Because it's slowing it down, even asking, can we?”

Can we slow this down for a second? Can I take a moment? I'm here with you. I just need a second

to think what follows after is never how it sounded before. If your partner is giving you the

silent treatment, how do you engage? Depends that the silent treatment is there for a reason. Some people, you kind of have to do that the gray rock on, that there, you can't be, you can't reason with them. So I'm not saying that silent treatment is not there for a good reason sometimes. But let's say it's there to hurt you. People who use silence as a punishment. They're upset. You did something and they just go, okay, I'm just not going to talk to you anymore.

That to me is the number one sign of low emotional intelligence is if you can't even have the ability to say, I need to take a break for a second because that really upset me. I'll text you this afternoon. I'll text you tomorrow. I'll call you tomorrow. Versus just ghosting just because what it does is it puts the other person in position of trying to beg trying to plead and then what happens to that other person they desperately want you to

communicate. So what do they do? Most of the time they say something super flagrant like a bad foul. They say something that is really harsh. Just in hopes that you come back in. That's it. They just want that text back. Okay, he's still there. It still reads my text. He's still whatever it is. And so if you really, you're somebody who's, you're trying to get through the silent treatment. Respond to, I see that you're giving me the silent treatment. I see that

you've gone quiet on me. I'm going to give you space. I'm ready to have the conversation when you are. Now, there's a difference of somebody taking an hour to get back with you, taking five days to get back with you. Well, that's something different. That's somebody who has chosen not to be connected because if I really want a conversation with a real relationship with you, I'm not going to put you in the position of begging. That's such a great note that if someone wants to be in a relationship

with you, they'll never put you in a position of begging. Never. They'll always stay interested.

You know, it's like we've, for people who are married, let's say, or in a big relationship, it starts with me being very interested in you. I'm going to want, no, you're a favorite color. I'm going to want to know what you like to eat, what you like to wear. I want to know about your

understand you. And then we get happy and then we just, it becomes a measure of how good can I

“feel with you and the good. And then you get married and it's better, it's for better or worse,”

right? And then you just realize, I don't really like this worse part. I really just like the better part. And all of a sudden you realize that things get hard and you're in year seven of your marriage and you're 14 of your marriage and you feel further drifted apart because really you became less interested in them. You didn't get interested in the hard. You were just interested in what was the basics. You were good at the basic facts. You weren't good for the deep stuff. You were,

it gets to be where if you really want to know and test the strength of a relationship,

it's not the measure of how good do I feel in the good times. It's how long can I sit with them in the hard times? And when I can sit with you and what is the deep struggle? When we're both crying, more of both three hours into the argument and go, I don't understand why I can't communicate with you. I don't, how did I ever like you in the first place? That's real. That's raw. And if I can still sit with you in it, that's a type of connection that will last forever. It's, you know,

I talked to so many couples and even older couples of, how do you, how do you do it

with communicating? How do you do communication? So, well, it's never, we have really big conversations.

You know, it's never that. We know that things are going to be hard and we choose to stick through the hard. People give up too easily. I mean, you're married. I'm married. It's, they're a fight. They, they are an absolute fight, not between each other, but for the relationship, it's the relationship versus everything else. Attention, time, obligations, finances, kids, it's the relationship versus everybody else. Is there anything someone can ever say that shows you

they're not your passion? I don't care about you. If they really don't have an interest,

“caring about you. If, if you hear that I'm upset, are you hear that your wife's upset? You should”

care. I'm not talking about the surface level. Okay, I don't care about that right now. I'm talking about the deep. It does not affect me. When you're on the ground and upset and face on the floor and you're crying and it doesn't affect you because you don't care that to me is they're not your, they're not your person. If you want to know if somebody is your person, have they asked how you're doing? I've seen so many people go on dates or have relationships

and they said, yeah, they were nice, but I don't think they've really asked about me. They just talked about themselves as they just needed to, you know, rent an ear for a little bit because they just made it all about themselves. Those are people that you know are not going to be your people.

“If you want to know if they are your person, you don't have to ask them. Why don't you ask about me?”

They will naturally want to know more about you. You don't have to ask. I just one time where she, a woman asked me, you know, I went on a date and he really didn't ask about me. You know, that much, I'm not sure what to do. I said, don't go on another date. If they're not going to just ask about you and the basics, how could they ever want to know about you and things are hard when they will be hard? There's no getting a getting around it. They will be hard. That's how

you know if they are your person. They're willing to have the deep, hard conversation. How do you know if your relationship just has so many arguments that it's beyond saving? How do you know that it's gone too far? When you look back and the other person is 10 miles behind you. Explain that. When you're doing it alone, that you've read all the books, you've read all the materials. You're listening to all the podcasts. You might be listening to

this episode and going, I desperately want to heal my marriage, my relationship. I don't know what to do because most likely they're the only ones with an ore in their hand, trying to paddle. And the other person is just in the back with their arms folded. I don't really want to be here. Does it not bother you that we are in conflict right now? I mean, I don't really care. It's really your fault. And they feel like they're the only ones that are there. These people that it doesn't

will never try and reach for you. So how do you know when it's enough that you've put out your hand

and they're unwilling to take it. And you just look back in the review mirror and they're okay

“with leaving it. Yeah, and I think the hotbyes, someone has people show these glimpses of”

or rays of hope. And then you believe that. And then they go back to being the way they were. Yeah. And they kind of oscillate between showing you they care momentarily. But then going back to not caring. And it's so hard to know which one to invest in and which one to believe. Mm-hmm. I think that the more honest of a conversation you can have with that person. Yeah. The more honest reflection of what kind of relationship you have. Like we talked about at the

beginning, Jay, if I can't have the hard conversation with you, then how deep is our relationship? Mm-hmm. Now, if look at the relationship itself, if it's only surface-level conversations, I'll show you a surface-level relationship. But if you're willing to have the hard talks, I can show you a much deeper relationship. What's your capacity for the difficult? And yeah, people will show you the glimpses in conversation of, oh, there's that person. There's that person

that I, I like, and then it's gone. Well, that's because it's, it's only a side effect. It's, it's not the main symptom. Yeah. They are, they're only putting on the show to keep you entertained. They are, it's like a slot machine. You know, they just want to keep you addicted just for a little

“bit longer. And you have to look back and go, what am I? What am I getting from this in real time?”

What am I truly getting from this? Am I, am I enough just by myself? I think that's the deeper issue of feeling, if I don't have this person, who am I? Yeah. And that's why we don't tell we feel it's why we mold, who we are. It's why we tolerate bad behavior and bad words and bad communication because we don't feel like we're fulfilled without them. So we'd rather have a painful existence with them than a potentially painful or long term non-painful existence without them.

And I appreciate what you're saying because it shows that there are real ramifications and consequences to poor communication. Yeah. Because I think a lot of us will just tolerate and

elongate those periods, hoping things will just get better or go away. But the reality is that

people don't change their communication patterns that quickly. Yeah. And that's a harsh reality. It's a harsh truth. Things don't change. If things don't change. I know that when you have those moments where I wish things were were different in our communication. Yeah, that takes time, that takes real raw vulnerability. It is my belief that love is self-disclosure. I really want you to know me. I'm going to disclose everything. And if I want to know you, I need you to disclose

everything. I need radical honesty in this relationship to know that I'm never going to be too much. They need to know. My wife needs to know. She's never going to be too much. And when you can create the element of safety and conversation, you create a relationship that can be impenetrable to anything from the outside. When things get stressful and stuff in that attention, you kind of bond together. But if there's a source in between you and you can't address it,

if you can't take care of that, it's never the outside and it's always the inside out that

ruins you. Yeah, you made me think of a moment where sometimes if we're doing an interview or maybe even if we're talking or talking to a friend and someone will ask us about a relationship and my wife will always be like, "Oh, I can be a lot." And my honest reaction is you are not a lot at all. And she will be like, "No, no, no, I can't." Now we'll get you an argument. And it reminds me because it's that same thing. I appreciate her because I don't think she's

a lot. Like, there's not a moment where I'm like, "Oh, you're being too much." Right. Because you're right. I want her to be herself with me with what she's going through

“and trust that she can share that and express that. That's how you know that they're your”

person. Yeah, yeah. When they're not too much for you, you know, you have capacity for all the range of everything that they are will be in what they have to offer. You know, their strengths as well as their weaknesses, especially the weaknesses because even we have many. Yeah, of course.

then they may not be right for you and you may not be right for them. That's exactly right.

“If there is a mismatch in capacity to deal with the messy, right, they say, "If you can't be with”

me in my hard times, then you don't deserve me at the best." Right. That's absolutely true, especially in conversations. If I can't have the grace, the capacity by you, for me to say the wrong thing and you realize that I did say the wrong thing and there's a place for me to apologize. I mean, repair has to happen. Yeah. Repair has to happen. So that's, it's all me to do that. Now, if I know that I don't have the capacity in that moment to absorb everything that has

happening, that's not going to, to work. It's not, it's not for lack of love. It's lack of capacity.

What should a healthy repair conversation look like? So if you're going to repair with someone, because you said something you don't mean, or someone's going to repair with you saying something, because they said something they don't mean, what should that conversation sound like from their end or yours based on who did the mistake? 99% of the time, our arguments are not what we're arguing about. They are about the hidden need. They need to feel understood. They need to feel

hurt. They need to feel safe by that other person. And things go so south when I pick up the frustration, or I pick up the reaction and not listening to the need. Every one of us, ourselves included.

“We go into conversations with these hidden fears of, am I enough? Am I enough if I get it wrong?”

Am I enough if I look scared, or I don't know what to do, or I don't know what to say, or will I be abandoned, or they're not going to want me, or do they not really care? We comment every single time to one of these conversations. And if I'm just responding to the reaction

rather than addressing the need, there's always going to be a mismatch. There's always going to be

conflict that is now corrosive to the very fabric of the conversation. Like, say, for example, in a relationship, somebody goes, do you even care? Like, I don't even know, do you even care? And what is the guy like, oh, this again, really? Do I care? Like, okay, this is so stupid. And what you're doing, you're tearing the very fabric of the relationship when you are dismissive over how there's a real feeling. So when somebody is sharing that kind of question with you,

and you treat them as if that question is real, because it is, you change everything. How do you model repair? That you model it by saying, I can totally see how you think that. I can see how you'd be frustrated. You know, if that's the way you heard it, I don't blame me for being upset about it. Of course you'd be upset about that. It sounds like that sounds really frustrating. That sounds scary. I get the feeling you feel really hopeless right now.

And it's like, yes, that is exactly how I'm feeling. You just, you want somebody to understand how you're doing. I don't need to agree with you to understand you. I don't need to fix the problem to meet the need. I just need to slow down long enough to put aside the frustration and the reaction and see the wound. It's so clear that if we simply went into every conversation or the next conversation, just trying to understand how much you've resolved. Yeah. Because like you said,

everyone's just trying to get you to understand and whether they're shouting, there's that beautiful statement that I love from Russell Barkley, where he said that the people that need the most love will ask for it in the most unloving ways. That's right. It's slowing down the moment to say, what do they need right now that they don't have the words to ask for? What are they asking for

“that they don't have the words to say? And when I can stop say, what is happening here?”

You think I have, we have two kids. All right, seven or five. And when my son, seven was, let's say, three, right. And if he was crying, yelling, throwing something, yelling, no, throwing a fit, you think I was going, I cannot believe that you're raising your voice right now. You kid it, you're crying at me. Can you do not see all the things I'm doing? No, I go, oh, he's hungry. He's upset. He's scared. You know, he's sleepy. It's, it's his bedtime. It's the same thing.

It's the same basic human needs in every single one of us. It is, I will shout it to the rooftop.

that understanding, by using words of repair, everything changes. Repair, validation, validation is not

weakness. It is repair. And that that's the measure of a true relationship. How quick can I get to repair? Relationships don't fall apart because of one big failure. They fall apart because of the hundred micro moments where repair could have happened, but it didn't. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, these little cracks. Yeah, this is the, this is the paper cuts that you go five years, 10 years, 30 years, and you look back and go, but there's just been so much. How can I possibly address it?

There wasn't some big moment. It's all these little moments for repair that you just chose to

“to go by. That's why every single one is is truly important. So when you get dismissive and go,”

really, this, oh, here we go again. Here she goes. You're just, you're choosing to not repair.

And if you understand and sign, can sign your name to a piece of paper that says, I'm choosing my frustration over her piece, sign your name to it. If you can sign that with a straight face and give it to her, then congratulations. You've lost the relationship. That's what that's what you're doing. You're signing your name away to the end of it. I wanted to talk a bit about parenting because you mentioned it earlier with estranged family members and things like that. One of the biggest

interactions people experience with their parents is feeling judged. So a lot of the communication that parents have with people don't have great relationships or even if they do is judgment. It may even be in their tone. Or did you see what signs those doing? They just, you know, go married or they go on your promotion. Or it may just be like, oh, you still with that same guy,

“like you, and I think this feeling of judgment is the opposite of understanding. When you judge”

someone, it's saying, I already know you. I'm already seeing you a certain way, and I'm not going to let you show me who you are. I'm projecting my viewpoint onto you. So it's so hard. Right. And people struggle to communicate that with their parents because we say things like, well, will you just lead me to do my thing? And will you just stop like, you know, and then the parent goes, hey, I'm just trying to look out for you. I'm trying to do what's best for you and you're like,

yeah, well, how do we set boundaries with people that we love and we know love us? But we can't keep feeling that judgment. Different level of boundaries that need to be applied. One is the boundary of a time and space. If it's something that's really bad, I'm not going to be at the family reunion for four hours. I want to go say hi and leave one

“I need to leave. Distance is okay. Yeah, distance is okay. If that's what's required for you,”

certain topics of conversation, not going to be in the cards for you. And that's okay.

Second is at least if you can acknowledge that for parents, now that I am one,

judgment is a poor way of showing love and care. That's the deeper rooted feeling as I desperately want to make sure you're okay. I'd say that again, because that is so good. The judgment is a very poor substitute for love and care because that's the deeper need. Well, you really should do this. You really should do it. Haven't you seen what so-and-so is doing? It's deep care for you and how you are. Even though it's what they would want, it doesn't mean that matches what you want. That's the major

riff right there. If you can set aside what they're saying, instead hear the value. Let's apply this to the same framework. Rather than responding to what we are interpreting as the judgment. Instead, we respond to the value, the need, the care, the love for you. All of a sudden, our response becomes different. So if let's say somebody brings something up at a family dinner that you know is just, it's a time bomb. They've now

exposed this, okay, I guess we're having this conversation. Okay, everybody, I guess we're having this conversation now. Instead of that, you use the framework of "I can tell blank is important to you." And insert that blank into whatever category you're talking about. I can tell that malwell being is very important to you. I can tell that the kids and how I raise the kids is really important to you. Yeah, I can tell that the kids are important to you. I can tell that my financial

my security, my is important to you. And all of a sudden, what they were judging about kind of goes away.

I mean, they wouldn't be doing their job, so to speak, right? They say the the hardest thing about parents is that they had parents. And maybe they wish, maybe they wish deep down that their parents cared. They wish their mom or dad had been as invested as they are. Now what what is different is when that judgment turns to demands in terms, it's sourced the relationship. Instead of them

“giving you the grace to make decisions, I think part of love of a parent is you have to allow”

them to make mistakes. And then then then then you do everything else for them. And maybe with parents, it's the fear of not being relied upon anymore. I now have to just let this thing float in the

water. And I can never control it. Again, that's very scary. Maybe instead of being so upset about

their judgment, you see it is something of, well, maybe they're failing, they don't know who they are anymore without having somebody to take care of. And maybe I just need to speak to that. Mom, dad, hey, thank you for everything that you've poured into me. When you speak to, you've done everything that you and I know that you've done the best that you, that you can. Imagine the kind of conversations that can happen because most of the time when they, in my experience,

when parents are nitpicking, really what they're asking for, is for you to fulfill the touch that deeper connection, I'm not doing enough from my child. And so when you can say, hey, you're a good mom, hey, you're a great dad. And remind them of that, I think the conversation

is always going to go better. I love that and I hear people feeling like it can just be so exhausting

to have to translate whatever I'm saying in an emotionally mature way and then respond to them, almost parenting them. Oh, no, but yeah. What you're saying is true that, yes, it's exhausting, yes, it takes time, yes, it takes effort. But what's on the other side is so much more worthy than continuing to do what we're all doing right now, which isn't getting anywhere and isn't going anywhere. Yeah, I definitely subscribe to the mindset of what is good is worth whatever it takes.

And if it's not, then it's not, you might hear what I said and go, look, yeah, more power to you. And that sounds exhausting. I always have to do this with my parents.

“I'm not saying every time. There are certain times where no, you need to get in, get out.”

Yeah. They bring up that topic and my favorite to use is maybe so. I use the phrase maybe so all the time. They give me a piece of advice or something or you maybe to strange or whoever it's, yeah, maybe so. It has a way of just diffusing everything. You've even acknowledged what they said. You heard it. I didn't argue with it. Yeah. Yeah, maybe so. Yeah. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, maybe so. Maybe so. It has a way of just diffusing it and now they feel like, oh, okay,

well, I said what I need to say and then I'm good. Yeah, I wish I had that one back in the day.

I remember with my extended family that always be telling me that I told them I decided to become a

monk and I'd always hear this. It's the worst decision you're never going to make. It's, you know, and I'd always just say, you're right. Yeah, probably, but that's it. Maybe so. Maybe so.

“Because I didn't want to agree with them, but that's what I had in my vocabulary there.”

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe you're right. Maybe you're right. Like, you know, but I like maybe so a lot. Yeah, maybe so it always works. I also like, I'd rather, I'd rather hear about you. Yeah, that's good too. I use that one a lot. In any time, the dinner table might turn a little bit more political. Like, you know, I'd rather hear about you. Yeah. Nobody ever shines away from talking about themselves. Yeah. How do you, you talked about

sometimes distant, sometimes not engaging? How do you say no without feeling guilty? Because I think the challenge we have is a lot of us want to say no, but then we feel bad for saying no. We think this person gave me so much. They are trying, they're caring and then we talk ourselves out of it, but then we just walk into a trap almost or walk into a, and then we got, oh, I knew that was gonna happen. I should have said no. So how do you say no without feeling guilty?

If you believe that the person truly cares about your well being in your life, then they'd want you to say no. If you need to say no. Imagine if that's the relationship you thought you had, that they were always worried about your feelings, that they actually weren't being real with you. And now what kind of relationship is it if you can't be authentic enough to actually share your mind? Saying no is very difficult, depending on the context, no doubt. What I strive for when it

comes to telling people no is to lead with the no first. Like let's say I needed to invite you to

thank you so much. I appreciate it. I'd love to, but I can't, you know, I have all this stuff. I'm so busy,

“I have, and now it's almost like, hey, look, if you couldn't go just saying you couldn't go,”

I don't need all this extra. Now it just sounds an authentic that you've given me so much.

Because why they were afraid that you're going to be disappointed by that. Start with the no first.

I can't make it. Thank you for inviting me. I can't make it. Thank you so much. And rather than I love to, but I can't, but has a way of just deleting everything that has come before it. And I feel that if I need to say no to something in my mind, it's, you want me to say no to this because I won't, I'm not going to be my, I'm not going to be my best. If you really feel uncomfortable about it, then I've made a promise to myself of X. I've made a promise to myself. I'm going

to be home more often. Made a promise to myself that I'm going to use this hour to do X, Y and Z. People don't argue with promises. They don't want you to break promises, including promises that you've kept to yourself. And saying no is as easy as just saying no, it's the no because that gets you in trouble. No, it's just, you know, it's because I have to go or feed my cat and, you know, I have this plant that I water and it's, you, you give up on these excuses that end up diminishing your

credibility rather than just saying I can't make it. No, no, thank you. Not for me. Can't do it. Sometimes the kind of thing you can do is be as direct as you can be. I agree with you and I did

have to do that recently as well and you always just don't want to let someone down and you don't want

to, you know, make them feel bad and you, and you're so right, I always tend to just commitments I've made to myself because I think because it's true and I think you're right that when you say "but" it feels like, well, I love that but this is more important. It's man. Yeah, and when it's a promise to yourself, it's, I'm trying to keep this promise to myself and everyone knows how hard it is to keep promises to yourself. They'll encourage you. It's a real commitment and it's a real

commitment and it's, and when it's genuine, it really lands. What do you do when the scenario is,

“you say no and you do it in the best way possible and someone's upset with you. And now you're”

turning this line between enabling them to make you, say sorry and all this kind of stuff versus holding your standard. So someone asks you to come to a party or they help them out with something, you say no, I can't, kept a promise from myself that trying to spend more time at home, can't travel. Now they try and make you feel bad about it and there's someone that you can sit or a real friend and they're not even trying to make you feel bad about it. They are just

upset and they're kind of reflecting that back on you. Do you do anything? What do you do? I'd give it a rest. Sometimes fires at the burnout and if it's a true friend,

let's say they just send this text of, this is just like you, never to come and you just, I always

invite you and you're always late and it's let that die out because when they're disregulated, you become disregulated and then that's when you start saying things that you don't mean and saying things that are not going to help the situation. So give it five minutes before you choose to respond. In fact, if you can, wait until the very next day because time has a way of

“sifting things out of what you need to respond to and you're also giving them some a little bit of grace”

of saying, I know they're upset. Imagine if I instead of getting upset with you, everything you said, I looked at and go, man, Jay's stressed out. A true friend, hey, I know you didn't mean that, I know you just, you're overwhelmed. You're overwhelmed. Later on, let's say a day passes two day passes. That's when you need to say, your words are not okay with me. What you just sent is below my standard for response. You need to be able to to tow that line. If saying that,

no, I'm not going to accept that kind of behavior. It's okay to be disappointed and it's not okay to talk to me like that. You have to be able to choose in conversation, same with boundaries. What am I going to accept? What am I going to say? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. It's the difference of if you were to yell at me or raise your voice at me. If I had no boundary, it would sound like, you can't yell at me. Really, you think you can yell at you. Do you think you know who you're talking

to? You can't yell at me versus if I have boundaries, I say, I don't accept people to speak to me that way. I don't respond to that volume. Now it's become a me thing. Nothing that you can do. And now I've controlled, I'm controlling the conversation. I'm taking it back. So if it's a friend, if it's a true friend, they ought to know what you really meant to that moment. And again,

that as soon as I started living by some of this, my life just totally transformed. You just and people actually started to respect, at least the ones that love you and I actually close to you, started to really respect that honesty and started to really engage with it in a much more meaningful way where they weren't upset when you were honest because

they saw you were always honest and you were always real. And all of a sudden, it wasn't surprising

anymore, whereas in the beginning when you first had setting boundaries, people will be like, "Oh, wait a minute, it used to always be available. Now you're not available." Absolutely. And people have this reaction, we're like, "Hey, wait a minute, how do you have plans on a Saturday?" And I'm the one who makes plans for us on a Saturday guy. And then over time,

“people go, "Oh, yeah, that's just who you are now." And I think a lot of us go through these”

transitionary moments in our life where we go from having no boundaries to having boundaries, we go from having no standards to having standards. Yeah. And when you get caught in the middle,

people always point it out and it feels really painful because you are going from someone who has

never organized to being organized. Right. But now, over time, people tend to respect and forget. If someone is upset at your boundary, it doesn't mean that it's wrong. It means that it's working. It's doing the very thing that you have the boundary in place to do, that discomfort, that you feel welcome. Welcome it because that's you choosing to do something different. And always that moment will pass. Discomfort, temporary discomfort for long-term peace. Sign me up.

Yes. Where can I sign up? Yeah. And if you can understand that those moments of discomfort get quicker and get quicker. And all of a sudden, they become expected. And it's not a bad thing. You know, me times as an attorney, I've heard arguments between two people, or I've made arguments. And it's nothing. Well, it's these huge knock-down dragouts because I've seen a lot of it. It's not like I'm going to be, oh my gosh, they're yelling. Oh my god,

I, you know, we're in this argument because you're seeing a lot of it. E are doctors. The only things they've seen. And then if you were to come with a scrape for them, oh, okay, this is

“nothing. The, the small things become nothing. And that's what you have to remember. It's,”

it's working a different muscle. And so whenever you feel that angst, take it as a sign for good that you're choosing to do something different. Why? When you work out and you feel sore, oh, I'm, okay, I'm growing. That's the sore. It's, it's you using a different muscle that's going to better your life. Jeff is, and I want to switch to the workplace because I know you're expertise in the book. Also,

goes into that space. And I think that's an area where communication is so challenging on so many different levels. Because now the incentive structure is different. The hierarchy is different. Yeah. There's all these rules in place that in one sense you don't have in friendships and romantic relationships. If it go well, it keeps interrupting you. How do you shut that down

without sounding petty? I let them interrupt the first time just the first. Because we've all seen the

people who they interrupt once and they say, excuse me, I was, I was talking, excuse me. You know, I'm sorry, where do you not hear I was talking? And everybody in the room goes, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, okay, excuse me, I guess you have what? And all of a sudden you become like the diva, right? You become the person, oh, I cannot be interrupted. And sometimes more often than not, the person who interrupted didn't even realize that they were doing it. It meant no intention whatsoever. And some of

these people are neurodiverse and some people have ADHD where they, it's going to happen. No bad intention behind it. And if I just let it happen, let them go on, let anybody who interrupted no matter what, be able to say what they need to say, then I start again. Why? Because if they were interrupting me, they weren't going to listen to me anyway. Yeah. They weren't listening anyway. They were only thinking about what they had to say. Now let them get it out and get it all out and show

that I have some maturity that I don't have to be first. I don't have to have the spotlight right in that moment. So after that first interruption, then I start over again, exactly where I left off. It's not like I, okay, I guess thank you, like that dismissive passive aggressive. It started

“exactly where you were. And if they interrupt again, if they interrupt again, that's why I say,”

I can't hear you when you interrupt me. I can't hear you when you interrupt me. I do the same thing with my kids. I can't hear you when you're whining. All of a sudden, the voice changes. Every time.

rules on place. And so I can't hear you when you interrupt me. I've also used, I will listen to you when

“I'm finished. If you want me to hear you, you need to let me finish. It's me putting an if then it's a”

condition. It's logic. If you want me to listen to you, then you need to let me finish. And so in an order to get to what they want, they have to abide by the rules. Yeah, one of the mistakes we make in the workplace that in our communication that make people respect us less over explaining,

we say way too much. We say everything. We say the things you never ask for. We just keep going and

we can't stop. We don't know why. You might have asked a simple question. And all of a sudden, next thing you know, they're telling you everything. Probably sometimes way too personal. And they realize I can't stop. Over-explaning has a way of diminishing not only your control, but also your confidence. We've got out that conversation. Oh my gosh, I just say way too much. Why did I say so much? It's because it's a it's a deeply rooted fear that you're not enough to be believed. So I have to

over-explaning. I have to say more so that you believe me more, so that you see how smart I am, that I do know what I'm talking about. That's why some people name drop so that you know that I'm

“important and I'm special and I'm worth this. This job versus only saying what you need to say,”

over-explaning kills the confidence. What I say is rather than being a waterfall, be a well,

rather than trying to over-explan and say all the things at all the time. You just hold the knowledge and confidence of your own information and people will come to you and ask questions when they're ready. But over-explaning is a sure way of showing that you're not somebody that can really be relied on in that moment, especially when quick decisions, hard decisions need to be made. Well said, I like how when you're sharing these examples, there's a layering process,

almost like there's a step one. And if that's work, then there's a step two and if that isn't work, then there's a step three. It's like there's degrees rather than like, this is the right way and this is the wrong way. It's almost like it feels like there's an escalation. And that's

“important because I think not everyone who looks like they're against you is truly against you.”

And in our mind, we can often portray people in a certain way. I read something recently, which I loved. It's called "Handland's Razor" where he said that "don't attribute to Males, what can adequately be explained by stupidity." And I love it. It's so good. And it's like, yeah, sometimes it's thinking about it, it's like, you know, all the people that you think are stabbing you in the back, there's just clumsy elbows. Like it's just the idea,

it's all that is. Most of the time, that of course there are sounds like it's a mash pit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like when you start giving, when you stop thinking that everyone's against you and trying to stab you in the back, then you actually operate better as well. You can actually respond better as well. You can actually, you can control the situation better because now you're not coming at a reaction. Two sides of this question, how do people advocate

for themselves in the workplace? Confidently, how do you communicate in a way that you can do that? And on the other side, how do leaders communicate standards and feedback effectively

so that people know how they should grow? First would be to understand that most likely the

person that you've talking, that you're talking to has been where you've been. And we turn it into and us versus them. When I was a young associate at the law firm, that was that, we would complain about the partners. We'd say, these partners don't appreciate the, they don't care. They don't understand when I became a partner, the first email I got from an associate, I was like, these associates. They don't understand. They don't get the problems of a partner. We turn it into us versus them.

The employer says, these employees don't understand. Employee say, management doesn't understand. When we don't stop to think that they have the same concerns. They're just as human and fallible as us. So if you need to advocate for yourself, it helps to be a student to have a learners mindset. So if I have to bring something to you rather than me sitting down and go, okay, listen, I'm not being paid near enough to be around here and deal with all this. Instead of that,

because from the management perspective, all they're thinking is, okay, are they leaving? They're out the door. Okay, what is that cost? What does that do to overhead? What is that? How is that going to affect my business? All the fears that they have deep within them of what that's going to do to their, to their life, same thing with employee. They're feeling, everybody's saying, I want my

when you were in my shoes, what did you find to be the best way of getting a higher salary or

getting to your position or finding, how did you find that you'd be more respected in this? People love to be asked for advice. Somebody will make podcasts about them. You know, like, it's true. If you can go to your superior and say, I need your advice. And then talk about the very thing without using your name or use your name. That's fine. Of what you're dealing with, all of a sudden, it removes the sense of, oh, no, what is this going to do? And there's going to

start thinking a thousand miles away. Now the fear is on, but if I were to ask, what did you find

“to be the best way to do X, Y, and Z? When somebody sent you a route, how did you handle that?”

And what it does is actually create bond between you two and remembering, hey, both of you are human. When it comes to leadership, what I like to say is, good leaders respond to conversation, great leaders make room for it. When I can encourage the difficult conversation in any organization that I go and talk to, I go and touch, I go and teach and train, the better that organization is going to be. Most of the time, communication is, they have no goal, no system, no values in terms of,

how do we want to communicate to each other? There's a difference between one restaurant that might just say, thank you when they give you your food and the other says my pleasure. There's a difference in every little word nuance that you have. When you can say, what's our shared vocabulary? And that's leadership and how we're going to communicate. Why? Because we've said the value and standard of how we want to be not only to the world and the outside, but also within

ourselves. So am I really caring about you or am I just, hey, thanks for the email, like that's

ultimately why I left my first law firms. I was helping clients that were nice and great,

but there was really no connection. It was just a file to that. And that became where eventually the Bill comes to do. And it's just, yeah, you just, you're left empty handed. So it's creating the atmosphere that difficult conversations and realizing that every opportunity to have a difficult conversation, everybody should be cheering. Everybody, there should be some celebration and some confetti. When you say, this is a chance for us to grow. This is a chance for us to better it because

we're okay with if, in like in sports or in business, the great leaders of say, embrace your failure, because it's the failures or the things that are going to ultimately lead you to success. But we don't, we don't do that with communication and difficult conversation, but that's exactly what it is. Jefferson, I was already a fan and I'm a big fan after today. Absolutely brilliant, such great advice. Just truly, so practical and real and grounded. And I truly can't wait

for people to get the book, the next conversation. Thanks. I'll give you last talk more. I really feel that this is like right at the core of so many of life's challenges. Like you could potentially, you could argue that every challenge we go through in a daily basis is a communication issue.

“And I really believe that this is the book that has the answers and so grateful that you”

showed up today and just shared so much amazing insight. We end every episode with the final five.

Okay. He's after be questions that are answered in one word to one sentence maximum. So most people take one sentence. No one have a dozen one word. So Jefferson Fisher these are your funnel five. Okay. The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever had or received? You can't look back in a whole straight row. So like when you're gardening or you can't look back and also, it's like saying you can't drive a boat by let's stare in at the way. You can't look back.

Yeah, more said. Second question, what is the worst advice you have ever had or received? Sank nice things will serve you well. Being playing nice will serve you well. Because if you say that nice serves you well, what ends up happening is that you eventually end up serving it. You people please, you say the nice thing at the expense of being real.

“Yeah. Question number three, what is the difference between being real and being harsh?”

My intention for your ultimate good. If I truly want the best for you, then I'm going to be okay with saying the harsh things I won't regret it. But I will regret saying the thing that

being real, but really we're just being harsh. We just don't really care. And it comes across harsh and

it's almost like that's a bit harsh and it's like, well, I'm just being real. Yes, they can use as a mask. Yes, exactly. Yeah, they use as a mask of way and well, this is just who I am. I'm just, you know, you can take it or or leave it, but really it's when you're harsh, it's mostly time you're just being lazy with your words. Yeah. You know, you're being lazy with other people's feelings,

“including your own. Like you should have enough intention behind it of caring about how you”

package it. If I were to give you a gift and it still has the receipt and I just hear you have

it. Versus me actually caring about the package. I'm putting intention that I really care about you and how things are delivered. Yeah, absolutely. Question number four, I mean, what's your favorite word in English language? Genuine. It's to me, it brings up just plain-based falling. It says genuine leather and the palm of like is real. This is what I have. This is who I am. There's a, there's a sense of soul and earthiness to it. When I know when somebody's being

genuine and in real with me and that somebody, it's like a good pair of jeans. You know, you just know I can rely on and depend on it. It's a great answer. Uh, fifth and final question we asked this to every guest has ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? Talk more. Are you less? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I stand by this very real understanding that one day we're going to have a conversation and you're going to have a

conversation. I'm going to have a conversation with somebody that we love and it'll be the last

“one we ever get with them and we won't know it. So you need to say the thing,”

talk like today matters because it does. So you need to talk more. Relationships don't fall apart usually over what was said. It's over what was not said. Same thing with businesses. It's misalignment doesn't happen because of one big moment. It happens in a thousand conversations that didn't. And so when you can talk more and reach more and understand more, the better is going to be. It's a great answer. Jefferson Fisher, the book is called the next conversation. Everyone has been

listening and watching. Please tag me in Jefferson with the communication tip inside that you're going to use this week. I want you to actually try and practice this, whether it's at work, whether it's with your partner, whether it's with the parent, whether it's with the friend, try and start practicing these tools this week because you'll actually see the difference and then you'll be focused and engaged to learn more. Follow Jefferson on Instagram and TikTok if you don't already.

And Jefferson, I hope this is the first of many times you come on the show.

Same here. I'm truly so grateful to get to know you today and congrats on everything and truly your insight is going to change a lot of lives. So thank you so much. I appreciate that Jay. It's been a blessing to get to talk to you, me. Thank you. If you enjoyed this conversation, you love my episode with the world's leading relationship therapist, Esther Perrell. Well, we talk about why your ego is ruining your relationships and how to date more effectively.

“I think we need to differentiate. Are you looking for chemistry for a love story or are you looking”

for chemistry for a life story? This isn't I Heart Packast, guaranteed human.