Matt Belloni on WarnerMount, Disney Succession, Oscars & More

Hi everyone, from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is on with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Matt Bellany, author of "Pucks Flagship Newsletter What I'm Hearing," and the host of the podcast "The Town." He covers the quote "real inside conversation about money and power," and Hollywood, and amazingly, it actually delivers on that promise. Everyone in Hollywood reads and listens to Matt, whether they like him or not. He doesn't mince his words, which is made him both very popular and a little more than polarizing.

I can relate. I am excited to talk to him because he always has such smart takes on stuff.

Matt, it is hard as a great reporter. He also has a point of view, and it's formed by reporting, and I really enjoy talking to him. And of course, we're at a real moment for Hollywood and media in general. And so, I couldn't think of someone's smarter to talk to about the topic than Matt.

“Streaming has upended the traditional Hollywood revenue model, consolidation has become essential”

to survival. President Trump is in weighing in on editorial decisions and mergers. An AI-generated video is likely to make an already tricky business environment even more complicated. So it's great to have an insider like Matt on to unpack it all, and we, of course, we'll talk about the Oscars, not the outfits, but the business. Our expert question comes from Richard Pleppler, the founder and CEO of Eden Productions, and the former CEO of HBO,

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There is this like question about whether or not you're actually making a good choice, and what does that say about who you are as a person? So we fully entered into the morality that's associated with sugar. How did sugar become the boogie man? And is it as bad as we're led to believe? That's this week on Explained It To Me. New episodes out Sundays wherever you get your podcasts. Matt, thanks for coming on on again. I'm so thrilled to have you.

Thanks for having me. There's so much going on. I don't quite know where to start, but why have you

never been to the Oscars? Because I can't I'd hate that shit. I've been to the Vanity Fair Oscar

“party. Okay, but you should come to the Oscars. No, once. Just to see it.”

Really? No, I see them at the, I saw them at the old Vanity Fair Oscar party, which when it was at the Sambus, you know, it was up the sunset tower, that was fun. I got a good time there. Yeah, that was when that party really mattered. That really did. I was there one year, because I wrote for Vanity Fair only to go to that party. I said this is my only reason. You didn't even have to pay me. And the first year I went, all the tech people were invited, because they

were suddenly hot, but not very not that hot, right? And I just got stuck there with all the tech people kept trying to talk to me, because they didn't know anybody. And I'm like, can you get the fuck away from me? And so I can meet some celebrities? Yeah. Well, then they moved into a bigger venue, so they can bite all the proctor and gamble brand managers and LVMH ad buyers that

Well, it was okay. I mean, one Elon Musk asked me to fix them up with people and I said absolutely

not. Did he have his real hair then? Or was it? Well, I don't know what was happening. He looked okay. He looked. He's one of the better looking techies. Anyway, I don't want to go to the Oscars. Anyway, let's talk about you. We're here to talk about you and what's going on. You're a must-read muscleist and you're a reporter and you're the guy plays himself on Seth Rogan's Apple Series, the studio. Oddly enough, I played myself on Silicon Valley, so it's kind of funny.

It's weird, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. We're the, like, I was the go-to on tech and you were absolutely the go-to on Hollywood. So you described yourself as the guy with a megaphone on the tight tannic, which I mean, laugh. Explain a little bit about how you look at yourself in your competition.

“Honestly, I don't think about that. All I do is try to differentiate. That's what you're doing”

in media in general and particularly in subscription media. When I launched my newsletter, I was like, okay, so I came from that world. I came from the Hollywood Reporter where I worked for 14 years. I was the editor-in-chief there and I kind of know what the trade media does well and what they don't do very well. Right. So I was like, all right, I'm just going to do what they don't do very well. The trades don't have a voice. They don't have opinions. They don't have perspective.

One more they do, but yes, you're right. They just type press releases. There's more than that, but I agree. I agree. I'm sorry. That was unfair. It's a lot of approved news where you're working with relationships and you get, you know, it's a lot of handouts and things like that, which is fine. Like the whole shame. I did that for a long time. But I knew that when I was just doing this on my own, I could ignore big stories. If I didn't feel like I had anything to add to it. Right. So I figured,

“all right, I'm going to either tell readers something that they don't already know and that they probably”

won't get from the other media outlets or I'm going to have a perspective in an insight and analysis that I feel from my 20 something years covering this business that I can offer that others can that. Yeah. And the goal is really to reflect what people are actually talking about. And if you can do that in a way that relates to people and is accessible and doesn't feel like your like it's homework, I feel like that's a real way to get an audience with insights. Right.

And you're not beholden to them necessarily. They're sort of, I mean, I tried to get myself an position in tech where they're beholden to me versus, you know what I mean? Or else they, if they ignored me, it didn't matter. Like, yeah, who did that to their detriment? So did you Uber? But you want it. You want to have sourcing and yet you get more sourcing if you're tougher from my perspective. I don't know how you feel about that. I agree. And you become undeniable. Like that's a whole

goal. I hate that word in Hollywood because everyone uses it. It's got to be undeniable. But it really has to be when you're an independent media outlet and there isn't a 100-year-old relationship between your outlet and the companies that you cover, which is what the trade outlets are. You really have to make to insert yourself into the narrative and keep yourself there. And you do that by telling people stuff they don't know. And by surprising and sometimes even entertaining people,

I do stuff that's just supposed to be fun. Yeah. You're in a battle. When you are independent media,

you are always in a battle for opens. What is going to cause someone to open what you send them

and not open it? And that's the stat I look at more than anything. More than clicks. So we don't care about clicks. We don't care about even the traditional metrics like I don't care about revenue. I don't care about that. I should care about revenue. But yeah. I care about open rates.

“If my open rates stay where they are and they've stayed really consistent. What are they?”

Usually between 70 and 80 percent. That's very good. When you set megaphone in the Titanic, though, are the others in trouble, do you feel like and are you yourself? That was in reference to Hollywood, not in the media outlet. Right. I see. Okay. The Titanic in that metaphor. And honestly, the second I said it, I said, oh my god, that's going to be the headline. Yeah. Yeah. There was. But is it a Titanic or is it just a resetting? I think it's both. I think for many of these legacy

companies, this is a Titanic-esque moment because they are they are so tethered to a model that is disappearing. The linear television model, the cable television, the expensive model. Yeah, the people will pay for content they don't actually consume model. That is going away. And it's been

going away often on now for 15 years. But it's really reach mission critical where these companies

are being dragged down and forced to consolidate because they are tied to a model that isn't working. Which they knew about. Because the model was so lucrative and the margins were so high, none of the executives were willing to blow up their own model to compete for the next generation

seen over the past five to seven years is this gradual, gradual, and then all at once take over by the disruptors. So let's then start talking about that, talking about Warner Mount or Perra. I prefer Warner Mount. There's Perra Bros, but I don't like that. That sounds better. Perra Bros works better. You like Perra Bros? I'll go with Warner Mount for you. You've been predicting the else and this is a winner since we when I have gone back and forth the auction,

even after Netflix closed on the 83 billion dollar deal for the studio and streamer back in

December. Talk a little bit about it. I thought it would take a lot longer. I thought they wasted enormous amounts of time by not just up in the bid, getting in there and winning with the money. Because I did, I'm fully aware that the biggest price went in this period in all these deals. Yeah. I think the lessons were a little arrogant at the beginning. And they thought that they could come in and swipe this asset for not very much money. They did not anticipate Netflix being

interested or coming in as aggressively as they did. And you know Larry, I know David, that's the reason from the very beginning I said, these guys are not going away. This is something that David has said to his father, I want to do this for 40 years. This is going to be my life just like the tech industry was your life. So please let me do this and let's do this together. And when you

have that kind of buy-in from someone who is so wealthy, they would never, they were Larry. They were

“never going to go away. They were going to push and push and push. The only thing I thought was Larry's,”

look, I know David to have interviewed him. Larry is brilliant. I wouldn't say the same about David. You can push against me. But Larry is brilliant in the area he was brilliant. And I thought he just can't even think this is a good deal. He's just, he's been so incredibly savvy about paying the right price for things and never overpaying and cutting and, you know, just one of these sort of repatious tech executives from the earlier days before the internet. And he was able to switch

and shift really drastically. So I was surprised. It felt a little indulgent on for him. And I suppose, what's the reason? Listen, he has one adult son and his one adult son has devoted his life to this. And he's 81 years old, 82. Yeah. And he's going to live forever. But if he doesn't, this money's going to, to David anyways. Right. And his sister Megan and others. But I think that that once David said, I want to do this, it was a matter of figuring out the contours of the deal.

And keep in mind that this is not all Larry's money. They're bringing in the Saudis. They're bringing in the Qataris. They're bringing in the Chinese now. Yeah. They're leveraging this company with

“almost $80 billion of debt. And he's saying today, but essentially, you need to make this work.”

Right. But the whole deal happened because Larry finally agreed to backstop it. I mean, that was one of the big defections. He was slow to. He was slow to. And I think it's because his nature is like, are you fucking kidding me? Like I can hear him thinking that. I've spent a lot of time with him. And it wasn't smart. But he wanted to indulge his son. It felt like that to me. And he thought he didn't have to. He thought they could get away with this. Yes. And the

Warner board, looking at this, said, way to second, what we have Netflix who's, who's, you know, going crazy with profits. And EBITDA every year, why wouldn't we go with the safe buyer over this if you're not even going to backstop it? Right. Exactly. So we're girls who bought it. You noted there is no good outcome for Hollywood. Either way, we're likely to see massive layoffs. This is something I

said. I'm like, this is not, they have to do $6 billion. It's more like $16 billion. Well, that's

what Ted Serando says it. Yeah, he is correct. You know, it's somewhere between $6 and $6, but is definitely not $6. And it could be even more, you know, talk about what's its stakes here. Not only for the executives involved, but for the people who actually create films and tell you, I'm like, this is, look, I keep tips saying, look out below if they get it. Stop. Stop attacking

“Netflix quite so much because it would have been a very different party. Yeah, at least that's what”

Netflix said when they were bidding. I think you're right though. I think that the coming together of two legacy studios with everything that they are carrying right now from all, you know, everything from creative executives down to the janitorial staff, all of that will be merged. It's 47,000 people. I believe 17 from Paramount 30,000 from Warner. Yeah, I've seen 35 at Warner, but I'm sure that somewhere in that part. It's a lot. And even if you take out 20 to 30 percent

of those employees, that is tens of thousands of people. Right. And these are middle class jobs. These are creative class jobs. This is devastating for these people, for the companies, for the city of LA, where most of these people work, for the city of New York, where CNN is, and Atlanta, where CNN also has a big presence. So from a macro perspective, it is just a shrinking of the traditional entertainment business. Right. And so they say they can de-leverage it fast.

all-time Warner merger. They were not able to do and realize these gains. And I remember it when they got Paramount, they had their first press conference. I don't know if you were there. And they kept saying, and David, in particular, was like, "You say I and do things." And I'm like, "Okay, specifically?" They have this like magic, or it will dust that they're going to sprinkle with an old crap. I'm sorry. And I was like, "Okay, but specifically." And they're like, "Hey,

hi." And I was like specifically. Like, "Can you give me one fucking specific?" And they never

could. And I just think, I was like, "Well, isn't your dad intact?" They keep leaning on the fact that they hired a product guy from Meta. Oh, that always went. And they say, in Jerry Cardinal, who's the Redbird deal maker. I heard him. He was on the town. And he said that they are going to be the first time that a studio and a Silicon Valley powerhouse are coming together. And I said,

“really? I think Netflix would like a word about that. But whatever. And there were lots of efforts”

in this area. But, you know, let's just say they can't. Let's say that they can use a little bit of Larry's prowess in this area and create a best-in-class platform, create a recommendation engine that is way better than what they currently have, can eliminate duplicative jobs. That's still... It's table stakes. That's already where Netflix was, yeah. Yeah, because remember what happened when Warner Brothers and Discovery came together. David Zazzoff

made very similar predictions about how they were going to be able to achieve synergies. And the content is going to take us to the moon on subscribers. Okay. Well, time Warner, it's been going on for us. I know. But, but the even from the very beginning of Warner Brothers Discovery, the prediction they made on the revenue and profit did not come to boost. Because, like we said, the linear TV business is cratering faster. Now,

Ellison says that they're very aware of that now and they know what the decay rate is in television.

“They've modeled that in conservatively. Maybe that's the case. But maybe it's worse than they think.”

And they're going to have to cut even more. And what does that do when you're saying that they're going to release 30 movies a year in theaters? And they're going to increase the investment for their streaming properties. That all costs a lot of money while at the same time

taking out six to 16 billion dollars from the company. I'm more interested in what are they

going to make that money? Like cutting costs is one thing. But when Zazzoff came in, he's like, we're going to make this this and this. I'm like, really? I don't believe you. Like, you can cut your way to growth. Like, and I was like, what again, specifically are you going to make that suddenly going to, what are you going to do? Bitcoin? That's a might not work. Like, what's your plan? And I don't, I don't hear fresh ideas. I hear a lot of old

retrad ideas that I heard when I wrote my old time Warner book. I don't hear a lot of like, how can you save money? I just, I don't get it. It doesn't make sense. But so after David Alson struck the deal to buy Warner Brothers discovery with his father's money, Zazzoff called the process thrilling and exciting. He's laughing, of course, all the way to the bank. And Kim Masters had a great piece in your column today that I thought was terrific. And it's something

I knew about, but not everyone did showing how the resume is pretty thin, just a David leading this. Talk a little bit about the relation between Zazzoff and David Alson, the two personized behind will be truly massively up. So I don't, I guess Zazzoff will write off in the

sunset with his pile of cash. Yeah. He is set to make $800 million off this deal. Yeah. He's like,

“to remember the starbelly snitch, the snitches, the guy who came, he's that guy. Yeah. And it is a”

growth test. It's being or something. It is a grotesque amount of money for someone who is not a founder. He is a media manager that came to this company saw that discovery communications was floundering in the linear TV era. Yeah. He bolted his company onto HBO and Warner Brothers under the theory that if they could create a streaming powerhouse, it might take them to the promised land. It didn't work. I had drinks with him, heard that one. Well, listen, more power to him

because he, he created this scenario where all of a sudden the fourth richest man in the world son wanted to buy the company, lucked out like nobody's business. And now he's going to, he's going to reap the rewards. So the shareholders are the big winners here. They are, there are because it was at seven and then it sold at 31. And which was incredible. And I was like, did was there $22 or whatever the $24 value in there? Like, there wasn't. Like,

nothing got created. In fact, things got cut. Yeah. It's just the perception with Netflix wanted this and the lessons wanted it. The, the, the, the bidding was off. The lessons were only prepared to pay $19 a share. They made their first bid. Yeah. So, and that was for all the companies. So it's just, it's a, a very fortuitous situation for Zazloff. But now he's in this position where they had a town hall on the lot today in Burbank where they're talking about integrating these

companies and kind of dancing around the layoff issue. And they have to figure out what they're going to do with each of these assets. Like, listen, is saying HBO should stay HBO be the premium

over the past three years to try to be something other than just HBO, the HBO Max brand. They're

doing things like the pit, which was not perceived as like a traditional HBO show or buying heated rival. Yeah. Yeah. Well, they're, but that's a little bit less at least Racy. That was a smart buy. Yeah. It was a smart buy. But, but that's at least more traditional HBO show. My point is they're doing more broadly commercial shows at HBO. Yeah. And that is overlapping now with what paramount is doing. And they have a whole apparatus there designed to increase the amount of content on

“paramount plus they're going to merge these two together. But how are they going to merge it?”

Because they're very different brands. One is a luxury brand. The other is kind of like yellow stuff.

The good part is their complimentary. Yes, they are. That one is one is broadcast style CBS style

content. In fact, the CBS shows live on paramount plus. And then the other is premium. And do you lean into the HBO brand? Do you lean into the CBS brand? There's going to be some very interesting decisions made there. How does it go together? And then you have two movie studios. I mean, paramount has been so weakened as a movie studio over the past two decades because of the mismanagement of the summer redstone people. So, but they have no franchises. Not no franchise.

They have some, but they do not have the treasure tro of superheroes. Which is why they need it, Warner, right? And yes, it was existential situation for this company. They have Harry Potter.

They have Lord of the Rings. They have all due. They have some. Yeah. Game of Thrones. Yeah,

Game of Thrones. They have all these franchises. And how are they going to integrate these two studios to best take advantage of that? Stick rank the assets for me. Really quickly. Like the studios are on top, right? Presumably. Yes, but not for the reason you think. They're not on top because of any output that they are doing this here. I mean, Zazlov loves to talk about how Warner

“Brothers had a great year in 2025. And he's turned around the studio. And that's why they were”

so attractive. But that's not the reason. Hello, Bride of Frankenstein, but good. They are, I know, the bride. Yeah, that's not talking about the bride. And in the grand scheme of things, the bride doesn't matter either. What matters is this is a 100-year-old studio with 100 years of movies and franchises that can be exploited across all platforms. That is where these studios really have value. The IP. And that's what Netflix wanted. They saw that and they're like,

oh my god, you know, if you look at Netflix on a random Tuesday night, half the movies at least in their top 10 are movies that they have license from another studio. That's right. Because they are known properties that perform on all platforms. Right. And it's something people want. And then substudios, what goes next? HBO. HBO is a global brand. It has a track record. It means something. I mean, all of these, these linear businesses, they're trying to transition over to streaming.

“HBO has done it. They have a streamer with, you know, I think it's about 130, 140 million subscribers”

now. Yeah. And they have, they have successfully grown this to be one of the streamers that matters. So now they're combining it with another streamer that is sort of matters. And kind of. Yeah. And if they can put those together and create a legitimate Netflix and Disney competitor, maybe the elephants will have one of the three, maybe four services that survive this era of turmoil. That is the goal. All right. Anything else that's worthwhile? News. Let's talk about the news

and the network. Because there's, there's the broadcast network and then there's the news division. So what's going to happen with CNN? Because that was going to be spun off, which I thought was the smartest situation. Perhaps. Obviously CBS gets written about a lot. I think it matters much less than people go on on it. Oh, see, I disagree. I think CBS broadcast or CBS news. CBS broadcast. I'm talking about the news. Oh, yeah. News doesn't news to be honest. It doesn't matter in the

the grand scheme of things. The CNN characters do matter. Yes. They are still throwing off a lot of profit. They are. And that is a, that is one of the few handful of networks that you can't cancel. A cable provider is not going to drop CNN for a number of reasons, but mostly for the five times during the year when people actually care and want to watch CNN. So CBS, though, is a real asset. Like broadcast ratings are still a thing. If you look at the live plus 35 rankings, which is,

you know, the nighted air is plus 35 days. Even when you include Netflix Amazon and other streaming shows, CBS has a big chunk of the most watched shows. Still. This is broadcast entertainment evening. Yes, is anything. This is including Stranger Things. Right. CBS will still. Now, the audience is

marquee sports products. And it has broadcasters. So, and, and, and as we've seen, the audience is

a band in cable. They haven't abandoned the broadcast networks as much as, as, as some have thought they might. Plus, they can get someone streaming. And it also has another life on streaming. Exactly. So, for now, at least, CBS is, is a very important asset, not in 20 years. But as long as it can carry live sports, it is going to be an important asset. So sports is key. Their news is not at all.

“Not not to CBS. I mean, that's why I think many people believe that CBS news and CNN will be combined.”

Absolutely. CNN will likely end up programming the news portion of CBS. And there will be one news organization across both, which is not dissimilar to what happened

at NBC. Right. But then they split it up. Where MSNBC and NBC broadcast were powered by NBC News.

Now, there was a lot on MSNBC that didn't work on NBC because it was more advocacy journalism. But they at least had one NBC news. Now, of course, they're split up and they're having to figure that out. But I think what we'll see is one. And I don't know if it'll be branded CBS news or be branded CNN, probably CNN because that's the news brand. Sure. And it's global. And you'll end up seeing CNN programming the evening news on CBS. Yeah, programming the morning show. And all of the news

breaks and election coverage. All of that will come from CNN. And you'll be able to take the employee count of CNN, which is about 3,000 people now. Maybe cut that in half. And maybe cut in half the CBS news staff. And then just do one combined product. Do you think the nightly news doesn't

matter anymore? Well, I don't know. I mean, CBS is third place. But if you look at the ratings,

there is still an audience for that evening news. But if you go to 25 to 34, I hate to tell you pivot is bigger. Like, I'm sorry. Oh, but but by a lot. But they're not going to 25. Right. That's they're going to old. They're going to, they've swit. They've long since abandoned that. And if you look at the ads on those shows, it's all pharma and heating pads and things like that. And it's guy Rizzi. But they're worried about sort of the Trumpy politics that they all since employed to get this deal

through. And that's not going away. No. No. Although David, people don't know was quite a

“democrat for a while, right? I think he probably still is. Honestly, I just don't, I don't think he”

is particularly ideological. No, I would admit. In my, and my dealings with him, he's not doing this, because he has some internal desire to change the world politically. This is not a burden. His father is much more political. Exactly. Especially around Israel, of course. Yes. And David cares very much about Israel as well. He does. But I think that he's just being opportunistic here. He sees that they have a window. And he sees that his father has a relationship

with Trump. And they've got two and a half years to, you know, do whatever they want. And there will, there will likely be very little pushback from the Trumps. And I just feel like that's, it's more of a business thing for him. And he does see an opportunity, I think. I mean, if you look at the news landscape, there is one right-leaning news powerhouse in television. And then there are about

“seven or eight that at least lean a little bit left center or left. And what I think Ellison is”

trying to do. And I think he's trying to compete more overtly with Fox. Right. And they continue to do that. I think he's going to get his head handed to him by the fox. The fox people are as clever as can be. I can't stand it. But they are. And people think Fox is successful because it's conservative. That's not why. No. They have a formula. Yes. They have the vibrant screen as Roger Eels called it. They have, they have personalities. They know the audience. They constantly refer to

the audience, the audience, the audience. They know their consumer. And they, they hit it hard all the time. Yeah. I just don't think they know media. I just media news. I just don't, I think they're not very good. It doesn't get matters that much to them. But, you know, if it gets to their deal through, that's I think was the, was the point. We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from Quince. A thoughtful wardrobe starts with quality over quantity.

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you heard about Indeed on this podcast. That's Indeed.com/podcast terms and conditions apply, hiring do it the right way with Indeed. So every episode we ask an expert to send our guest a question. Let's hear yours.

Interesting question. Well, if I got $150 million, I'd probably buy David Gaffins

yacht first and then go sailing for a few years. But okay, so first I would combine the two streaming services under the HBO Max name. I really hope Paramount doesn't go with the Paramount side of this because that brand doesn't mean anything. That is a streaming brand that has not achieved cultural significance in the world. Now, obviously HBO is great for people like you and me, but it's also not great for others who may say, "Oh, those shows are not for me."

“But I think that's why you keep the Max name on there. It's just a little signal that this is more”

than just HBO. And all of those television brands are tiles on HBO Max. Correct. Like a Disney's due to it. Like what Disney does? And Disney, I think that's worked. I think that the brand is working and it's about to get even bigger because they're going to get rid of Hulu and put it under the Disney plus Marker. So that, I think, I think and they haven't

Okay. So that's one. That's one. Second, and this is something that they are thinking about

“through my reporting. I think that they should lean into experiential on the movie lots.”

They will now have two of the legacy movies. They're beautiful properties. They are ones in Hollywood, ones in Burbank. And at least on one of them, they should try to reimagine what the studio lot theme park looks like. I love that idea. It should not be what universal is. No roller coasters. No, none of that. It should be more like what Netflix is doing with their Netflix houses. Where it's a rotating thing. You go in there and maybe for six months,

it's a godfather experience based on the godfather movies. And you can interact with the movies. You can place yourself in the movie. Then maybe there's something. There's a game or something

based on, you know, there's something about Mary. Yeah. I went in and sat on the friend's couch

and then looked at the corner that the costume left. There is a tour, a special tour, a corner that is wonderful. Let me just say. And it's really fun. Imagine that's super size. I would love that. Imagine if you had experiences and that you could meet somebody or something where you were imagining it. And you turned those lots into working offices, which is, which are, they currently are. And it would, it would help to alleviate some of the

pain of the production going to other locations. Right. Because a lot of those studio lots are not used anymore. No, they're not. That could be really fun. That could be, and it could make some money. And people would go. I would go. It's how universal started. They literally started with a tram tour. They let's bring people in and let them see how we work. And then now, this business

“is, is a real profit driver. Which one had the flood? That was that universal or was it, Warner?”

They have a flood. Universal does the flood, yeah. That was really fun. But the jaws, the jaws thing. They have the jaws shark and go in, they have a fast and furious roller coaster about to open. Yeah. I mean, those are now driving, those are driving the profits at universal and Disney. Yeah, that's a great idea. I hope, that's something they should focus on. I agree with you. So talk about the Netflix of it all. The stock rebounded obviously after they pulled out of the

auction. You've said this is personally embarrassing for as CEO Ted Saranderson made nice with Trump, sort of. Well, he was trying to get the deal through. He was that bad. I mean, they're all bad. But on the stack ranking. Oh, I don't think it's that embarrassing. Did I say it was embarrassing? Yeah, you did. But I don't think it is at all. I was surprised when I was a little embarrassing, but nothing damaging to Ted. Like, he'll move on. Right. And you point out the company is getting

this $2.8 billion. They still rock. I'm sorry. They're still really smart about how they program.

They do. But I don't think they're done here. I don't think they're just going to say, you know what we tried. Let's go back to our core business of streaming and let's not try to be a

“fully diversified media conglomerate like some of these other companies. I think that if Sony is”

available in the near future, they will go after Sony pictures and try to buy that because it's the next best thing to warn of brothers. If among studios that might be available, it's got a pretty big library. It's got a great TV production business. And importantly, there would be fewer anti-trust concerns, I think, because they wouldn't be dominating the streaming market like they would have if they bought HBO. Right. That's interesting. So Sony. Sony, I think that there are other companies.

Scott has talked about a Disney hookup. We're going to get to Disney a section. Scott thinks that Netflix and Disney are going to merge. He wants them to, I think, more than any. I was like, you cannot get that one through? No, no, no, no, no. Under any circumstances. I believe the Apple thing more than I believe the Netflix thing. Oh, interesting Apple and Disney. Yeah. Because Apple at least, that would take Apple in a different direction. Sure. I think, I don't, I just don't see Netflix

wanting to deal. Sony is a great idea. EMC. They can hook up a lot of content, right? They could. I mean, Lions Gate is for sale. I don't think that Netflix is going to buy Lions Gate. I know they're starting to see. EMC, I assume you mean the network's not the theaters. Yes, no, not the theaters. Maybe, but I don't, but again, like, let me be clear. Titsaernos does not like theaters. He does not. He does not. He said it to me on stage publicly. I, I know he doesn't. He likes him. Okay.

He says he personally likes going to the theater, but it's not our model. I think he correctly seems to say, like consumers do what they want. If they don't like them and they are showing they don't like them by not going except sometimes, let consumers decide and I think he's right. Well, unless he's trying to buy a theatrical movie studio and then all of a sudden for two months, he changed his tune. Yes, I know. We weren't in that business and now we're going to be in this

business and we're going to honor it. That was the most painful part. That was, but he didn't give up Susan Rice. So let's get that. So you think they'll be fine. They'll be, oh, yeah. I'm not worried by that. They kind of won by losing, right? Yeah, they got paid off. They slowed their competitor down.

Center of shitty action. A lot of controversial layoffs, crazy news people like everything, right?

And if this, if this all goes as it as every other media merger has gone over the past 50 years, these assets could be available in four or five years. That's correct. Where Netflix could then swoop in and get it potentially for a lot cheaper or get the pieces they want. And you know,

“it's, to me, Warner is the hope diamond. Like anyone who gets it dies, is that's what's going to”

be allowed to go anywhere and all they would now after he's sort of done this? I mean, from a shareholder point of view, nice job Dave from a Hollywood studio point of view, boy, I'd be pissed off. I don't think talent is going to be lining up to go to his dinner parties. Like they have been the last couple of years when he's invited them over to Bob Evans house. You know,

he lives Bob Evans house. No, I know. I know. I'm aware. I think he will end up selling that house

because that was a search team move. He will be more comfortable in New York and the Hamptons. He should go New York and the Hamptons and put on his, you know, comfortable sneaker. And he can go to lunch with Barry Diller and David Gaffin and they will all hide him. Laugh and ass off because Gaffin invested. He made some. Oh, yeah, he made hundreds of millions of dollars. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The rich get richer. Anyway, you're right. That's what he should do.

Let's count how many times he is thanked to the Oscars. Oh, yeah. That's true. It's not going to be like it's going to be the Mike and Pam show. Mike's looking at Hampty. We'll get thanked over and over again. Although I've been saying this for a week now. And I think because I've been saying

that they have been telegrapping to the talent to make sure to thank him. So I may have spoiled my

“own theory here. Oh, you should have kept yourself. All right. So let's get to Disney really quick.”

A big story coming on this succession story, Josh tomorrow, the current chairman of Disney Experiences takes over. Speaking of experiences, takes over to see you on March 18th. You've written quote Disney's honeymoon period obscures a bunch of under discussed challenges across the company. But especially in the content realm, you're absolutely right where tomorrow is the least experience and potentially conflicts are already brewing. What are the big challenges for tomorrow? And the

legacy of Bob Iger? I think for Disney, the real challenge is to shore up the streaming future and create and really have a powerhouse growing and profitable streaming service because Disney plus is not growing, not nearly as fast as some of the others. They have pulled back the investment there because they were so concerned about profitability after the spending spree during COVID. And they really have to figure out what their strategy is. Do they even want to be a general interest

streaming service? That's a legitimate question. The Disney brand and what Disney stands for and what a lot of people subscribe to Disney plus for kids program. Yeah. It's not the stuff that is pumped out on Hulu. It's not the Ryan Murphy stuff. It's not, you know, and does Disney even want that. I could see tomorrow looking at this and saying, well, okay, let's spin off these linear networks, FX and free form, and even ABC and focus on what makes Disney Disney Disney. Right. Which is a

very good business. There isn't anyone near them at so many tries to reach Disney. I mean, there's bits and pieces like Kpop, Demon Hunters, etc. But there's not, there really. If I had to, someone was like, if you had to get rid of a streaming service, I said, too. I'd have to have Netflix and Disney. That's it. And if I had to, I'd like Netflix better, but if I got rid of Disney, my kids would kill me. Yeah, essentially. And maybe he'll decide that that's their future and

“not trying to compete with Netflix and YouTube to be the everything service. Well, what happens to ABC?”

That would be a big about face from the Iger strategy. He did think Disney deserve to be up there with all, I mean, he was a television guy. He was a broadcasting guy. So ABC was his North Star and being all things to everyone. Maybe not for tomorrow. I think gaming. Tomorrow has had the epic games relationship and they're developing a Disney presence in Fortnite. I could see tomorrow making a big acquisition in gaming to try to keep up with that world. Disney has had a horrible

track record. Oh, trust me. I've been there for every one of those. Oh, I can't even remember all the names. Yeah, I remember it was Club Penguin and then it was there was another one. There was a multi-channel group that they bought called Maker Studios. Oh, makers like to do not to do that. I was like, no, no, no, that was a disaster. Yeah, it wasn't that expensive, but they did flop on that. I know, but it was jumped. And then Jimmy Petero had to clean it up, essentially. It has not been their successful area. And

maybe maybe a tomorrow can reverse that. I think interactivity with AI. They have this open AI deal where they've now handed over their characters to open AI to create interactivity on Disney plus and the the biggest challenge and something that I really hope tomorrow can leverage his

Disney fans can feel like serve all of the things that they want out of Disney shows social networking

shopping games. Yep. theme park experiences. You still cannot really sync up your Disney plus with the experiential experience that you have in a park. I'll give Iger this. He tried early and often and he didn't succeed quite a lot, but he did of the many executives I dealt with. He definitely kept making efforts. It just didn't work. So what is his legacy now? Of course, everyone knows in 2020 that the board fires Bob Chapeck, Bob Iger's Hampix successor comes back

at CEO. He was mighty bored on the ship in the south seas. So when he was in charge, but they settled this Trump lawsuit that probably could have won Jimmy Kimmel gets suspended and then reinstated.

“Although I think there's a little more complexity of that over these Charlie Kirk comments.”

It looks like cave in a trumpet. Again, I have a feeling there's a more interesting story there. So to talk a little bit about this final moment for Bob Iger because the stock is not you know, has not done very well. If that's the way you want to judge it, the judge it on a couple of different ways. I will judge it on a couple ways because there's

first there's Iger one, and then there's Iger two. And Iger one, I think most people would agree

that he did a fantastic job setting up the company for the digital future. In the sense that he bought the IP machines that have powered Disney to be one of those companies that we all now except is going to survive. That was not a given when Iger took over. No, he was. He was early. I have to say. So buying Pixar, buying Marvel, buying Lucasfilm, Fox, a little bit diced here. They bought it. That was a very expensive deal. And they got some great stuff. I'm still

still kind of defending the Fox deal. But a lot of people think they way overpaid and didn't get that much out of it. Right. Way overpaid. When did that ever happen? I know. But at least they they had the tools to launch Disney Plus and to really compete. Iger two, when he came back, it was a much different situation. It was a triage mode for a little bit. They cut the costs. They fired a bunch of people. They stopped doing a lot of the things that were enabled under

shape, they're just now, you know, Pixar just did a big interview where they were saying, yeah, we stopped making movies that were personal hand drawn projects from filmmakers. Now we're going back to big broad Disney style entertainment, which should have been a given, but it wasn't for a while at Disney. So he's kind of set the company back on track in some ways. But in others, it feels like Disney is a little behind in streaming. It feels like they're not as aggressive as

some of their peers. The stock is certainly not where it should be. There's no growth narrative for Disney. And Iger has really struggled to articulate what the next 20 to 30 years of the Walt Disney Company are going to be. Well, he might be like, I've had enough, right? I mean, I'm out of ideas. Well, maybe, but that's kind of the job is to get investors excited about where

“you're going. And we haven't really heard that. So what will new guy do then? What is his big idea?”

If you were run charts, let me ask that question again. What would you do there? What's your big strategic move? I don't know that I'm prepared to dump the linear business. Yeah. I just don't, I think that I'm a little bit more in the Iger camp that Disney has a responsibility to at least try to be everything, be a broadcaster for the digital age and still offer adult programming, all audience programming in addition to the family stuff. I think that they are smart in investing

$60 billion in the parks and experiences. The cruise business is insanely profitable for them.

And a best-in-class product, they have what Netflix would kill for. They have the brand identity that powers their entire flywheel. And they can do that in a way that Netflix wishes it could. So I would lean into that and I would lean into the things that make Disney Disney. And what about the Apple idea of them being bought by Apple? First of all, I wish that doesn't

“happen because I think that Disney is like the one Hollywood company that can determine its own”

destiny. Possibly. Yeah. If Apple buys Disney, it's pretty much over. Right? There will be no Hollywood companies, Hollywood studios not owned by outside interests. Right. If that happened. And I just don't mean Apple's content aspirations are still a mystery to me. I don't, I just don't think Apple wants to be in the theme park business. Do you? No, they don't. No, I don't. I think Apple just is sort of here and they're sort of, they put out a good show

just Tim wants to go to the Oscars or you think that's it? I think they do think there's a business

“there. I think it'll help with their other things. I think it's just the way the same thing with”

Amazon. Let's move than to Amazon. We haven't mentioned them. Their company that is also very involved in some of this stuff. And from my perspective, I think it's about something else. So you just there to sell things and the same thing I feel thought with Apple. I just didn't understand why they thought they're not interested. At least Amazon is trying to turn it into a real business and is trying to get a real audience there. They have a football deal. They're doing

broader, more all audience content. They're doing movies. They're about to come out with project Hail Mary, which is getting killer. It's an attempt at a big blockbuster. It's getting great. And they're putting it in theaters. Where they're putting their movies in theaters, which everyone except Netflix argues is the best way to create a brand around a movie. Although it's an Netflix and Apple. Apple is not putting their movies in theaters. No, but you said your your colleagues got Mendelssohn

writes that the closest thing to a franchise free one and done global blockbuster that the

“Hollywood has an attempt in since 10 it and 20. 20. And I think it can work. Is it Amazon's Hail Mary?”

Do they need it? Does it matter? Well, Amazon doesn't need anything in Hollywood. If they shut my entire operation down tomorrow, I think they would recover pretty quickly. But on the terms that they have set for themselves, where they have said we are going to double down on movies. Not only going to make them, we're going to make them at big budgets, with big stars, and put them in theaters. This is the Hail Mary year for Amazon because Courtney Valente, who runs that studio, she came from

Warner Brothers. This is her slate, finally. And these movies coming out this year, they have a

he-man movie that I'm sure you're very excited about. They have, they have a- You know, my taste in movies is a little like David Ellison's kind of cheap and dirty like well, then you'll love the he-man movie. Greenland one, greenland two, maverick. That's all right, tastes. Yeah, but then, but I bet you'll like Project Hail Mary too. I bet I will. I will. I want to see it. So, but let's go back to you. How where do you think Amazon fits in this?

“I think they're an important buyer now. They're they're a firmament of the Hollywood establishment now.”

They are they are doing shows. They are doing movies. They are doing just as many if not more than anyone except Netflix. Right. So, staggering those the buyers right now, very quickly. Netflix is the biggest buyer in terms of original kind of people. Or people want to go or be happy. Well, that's that's slightly different because if you're a filmmaker, you don't want to go to Netflix because they will not give your movie a theatrical release. If you're a filmmaker,

I think probably universal is the number one studio. Donna Langley, the elegant. She's fantastic and they can they can take care of your movie. They have a fantastic marketing department and the the number the top filmmakers, you know, this year they have a Christmas Nolan movie. They have a Spielberg movie. They have a Jordan P.O. movie coming next year. They they are really cultivating these filmmakers as brands. And then Warner Bros. has really stepped up

and tried to do that as well under their regime right now. They have Ryan Kubler doing the centers and one bachelor another and they have a number of other films. They have a Tom Cruise movie later this year with Alejandro Enery to directing. Does that change with the elicins? Will people like, oh, I'm not hanging out with these people? I don't think so. I think people are willing to separate. You know, it's like people worked for Rupert for many years. That is Cameron

worked for Rupert. And Rupert was smart enough to to there was a dichotomy between the Fox news operation in New York and the studio in LA. And he he was smart about he did not let one contaminate the other. Right. And it's very contaminant. And I think the elicins if they are smart, they will do the same. It just a matter of whether the situation at CNN and CBS blows up. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. If it becomes something that movie stars get asked

about on the red carpet. Like why are you working with this network when they're doing this? That that that it becomes uncomfortable. We're ultimately people want to sell their projects. Right. And get them out there. We'll be back in a minute. Support for on with Kara Swisher comes from the Freedom From Religion Foundation. The first amendment exists or no one gets to heartcode their beliefs into law. So when the government tries

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You're a master of the state, also the school of the school, just to get rid of it and then you're a student.

“No, no, not. This state is my safe space.”

You mean, you're all right? Yes, exactly. This state is the state of the state who just understands. The state of the state or the state of the state is not like the state. The state is a law. Save. With this state. So let's finish a bit talking about this existential dread that you talked about, this mega

phone on the Titanic. I'm including legacy media and I'm including Hollywood under the broad umbrella. It's facing a crisis at the same, you know, you have YouTube and Netflix, the most dominant forces in watching. Like my kids, YouTube is television to them, like period. Even if you combine

Disney plus and Hulu, they're still in third. Future warm-up would still lag behind. What is the

“path here for those legacy media companies? If you want to lump them, even though some of them are”

now owned by Amazon owned by the Ellison. Well, there's one to sell, which is what MGM did. And what, you know, what Warner's did here, then there's the consolidation element where you can start to try to buy up other little things and try and get more scale, which we are also seeing in the business. And then I think there is the, um, the do we have enough question, which I think Disney has asked. And I think Disney is answered it with, yes, we do have enough to compete.

And then what do you do? You have to really maximize your assets, lean in where you have strengths, maybe cut areas where you have weaknesses, and try to stake out some kind of real estate in the streaming ecosystem. Are you going to be one of the four services? And there can only be four, right? Well, they're, I mean, we think ultimately three or four services to be, you have different ones. Yeah, and or, or do you try to do something like to be? Were they're not trying to ultimately

compete with Netflix? They're trying to have a business. And it's a very specific business in free ad supported TV. And they're owned by Fox. So they have a provider of content. And that can be a business. It's just like Sony has carved out a business for themselves. Sony pictures, where they are not trying to have a platform that appeals to everyone. They sell to everyone. And they've been very

successful selling product. They got seven billion dollars out of Netflix for their pay one output

deal for their library. Make some good stuff. And then take the stuff you have that's good and sell, but also make some new stuff. And they are making, and that's valuable. Netflix is the first place you will see Spider-Man after it's in theaters. Netflix is the first place you saw, you know, anyone but you, or where you'll see, you know, the spider-verse movies. Because Netflix places value on that, Sony can throw in the rest of its library and get billions of

dollars for this. So the other existential risk, obviously, working the background for actual workers who make films and television series, the writers, the crew members, maybe even actors,

is AI, of course. Big topic. You're always asked about it. I'm always asked about it. Netflix just

bought Ben Affleck startup, interpositive. It makes AI power tools for filmmakers. Seems like a good idea of tools is a great idea. Yeah, that's very different than then. I agree. I agree. I agree. It's basically just a tool for your daily to help you complete the movie in a more efficient manner. Doing a better email, you know, write the email for me, essentially. Yes. But it also gives Netflix a little bit of cover to do other stuff. That's a chance, which is, such as, you know, integrating

AI into their visual effects processes, or their animation processes, or even, you know, their storyboarding, and all these other things where humans currently do that stuff, but most of these studios believe that five to seven years from now, all of that will be automated, and the costs will come down on these things. Yeah. I give the example of costumes. Why not just put a costume on Scarlett Johansson that doesn't exist, and just keep doing it,

“like, why do custom fittings? Why do everything? So what is the effect on creatives of Hollywood?”

Is this, is this contraction? How do you look at it when I'm sure everyone asks you, what am I going to do? And they're mostly worried about AI's slop, and you just did a whole episode on this with Bloomberg's Lucas Shaw, so give us a quick synopsis. It is the number one

for a lot of people is yes, that a lot of these things like production design and costuming and storyboarding and visual effects, those will absolutely be influenced if not replaced by AI. Eventually, now there are union protections that protects some of these people, and the above

“the line guilds have been at least somewhat effective in saying, okay, if you want to use AI to”

write a script, fine, but there will be a human attached to that project who will ultimately be

the credited writer who must be paid like a union represented writer, and the same for directors and actors. It's the other stuff that I think is going to be much more impacted, like animators, like people who are sound designers, there still be humans involved, but there will be fewer of them. That's how Jim Cameron talks about. It's like, yeah, AI is going to come in, but it's going to help make a movie that takes four years, take two years. Same thing with medicine, the drug that

takes four years, two months. And the way Cameron characterizes it is, no, it's not going to eliminate jobs. It's going to allow us to do more. And that's a nice optimistic way of thinking about it,

but ultimately people who have to spend four years on a movie are employed for four years.

Right. Where is that second movie coming from after two years? Maybe it's out there, and maybe we will be able to produce more, or maybe we won't, and it will just be that the entire industry

“contracts to these two year jobs. What about the actors and AI's sloping general?”

Yeah. I mean, the actors union is trying to protect that stuff. You cannot use a sag after actor in an AI program like that. And there are rights, there are right of publicity rights in most states, including California, where you have the right, that whole Brad Pitt fighting Tom Cruise video that was on seed dance. That is not allowed, and they took that down,

because you do have rights to your own name, image, and likeness. Although YouTube did that,

and then they dominated. That was the beginning of YouTube, those fights, speaking of Philippe down in an Eric Schmidt. Yeah. And most of these AI companies have taken the position that we will ask for forgiveness rather than ask for permission. So it's going to be whack-a-mole. And hopefully there will be some court decisions that will come down on the side of content owners that will

“allow them to protect the stuff before it gets into the ethos? Who's the most important AI”

company in this right now, then? I would say Google, because the whole reason that Disney did that open AI deal, other than experimenting, but it was to put pressure on Gemini and on Google, because they have not come to the table and tried to work out a deal. And Disney very much wants Google to pay them. And to work out some kind of deal, they're going to use characters. So we'll see. And keep in mind also, when Disney did this open AI deal, the one thing they weren't able

to license are voices. Right. And the images of the actors that play these characters. So if you look, it's Luke Skywalker, but it's the animated Luke Skywalker. It's Homer Simpson, but Homer doesn't talk. Right. So it's not a full experience without getting the intellectual property rights of the humans that are associated with these characters. Which will have to pay for, like, yes, or you do a James Earl Jones deal. James Earl Jones before he died, he licensed his voice to an AI company

that will work with his estate and pay his relatives. What effect does it have then on storytelling and creativity? I mean, what occurs in that environment? Well, the thinking is, is that the innovation in this area is going to come from outside Hollywood, because of the limitations on the rights to use these IPs and these actors that the real benefits are going to occur to these outside companies that are just doing it on their own. I'm not so sure about that because, you know, what were we talking

about from seed dance? We weren't talking about any of the AI videos that they generated. We were talking about the Tom Cruise Brad Pitt video. There is value in things that we know and can associate with entertainment. Maybe they'll create their own stars. Maybe there will be the AI Tom Cruise. Yeah, they're trying. They're trying. I know. I don't say the Tilly Norwood. No, it's just a song wrong with it. That is silly. Someone just sent me an AI version myself for a speech

I'm giving and it was the wrong glass. It doesn't look like I would take this the fuck down. Like don't put my face on it. Yeah, and obviously all that's going to get better and there will be you will be able to replicate and I've seen some things online like that AI peers Morgan looked

and the human touch on actors that at least for wild writers, the two big movies this year were sinners and weapons. Very dependent on their two creators. And not something that AI would have created. Because AI is a mean. It just boils stuff down based on what we've seen before. I would see it like make more West Wings. That's fine. I did that. So I interviewed Aaron Sorkin at an event that you see. And I put I asked Chad GBT to create a West Wings script based on

something that was going on in the Trump White House. And I read him some dialogue. It was cringey. It was terrible. He was so embarrassed. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll see. We're because I've a couple more things before we go. One is does politics really affect Hollywood right now? Obviously Trump pretends to. I think it's the end of the year at this point. But you have FCC Chairman Brandon Carr and what call the more on trying to metal. You've got Trump saying things trying

to attack. I think they're sort of run through their paces here. And it's almost over. Do they care? And in Hollywood they certainly have bent a knee a little but that's the expression people use. Yeah. There is a feeling that Hollywood is under attack by the Trump administration and that either be a Brendan Carr or via the Trump people wielding the regulatory power that they're

“you have to bend the knee. And you have to, you know, Bob Iger, I'm sure you've talked to him.”

He hates the stuff. He hates how to do this. Almost all of them do. Almost all of them do. Yeah. And it's just it's embarrassing for them. And I feel like that that is kind of cast a poll over the industry that that it's, you know, there was favored status and there's not favored status anymore. And in fact, the Trump people are actively trying to leverage and denigrate the industry even even little things like using tropic thunder in a

or one word. Yeah. People talk pissed about that. Everyone. Everyone was pissed. Everyone they is. So let's finish up two things. Academy of Wars are on Sundays. I can't let you go before we talk a tiny bit about the Oscars. Earlier years, the Grammy Awards were full of overt anti-IS messages from the artist. The BAFTA Awards were held later in February. And the BBC broadcast censored Pope Palestinian remarks made by an award winner. But I should mention they are the N-word,

Tourette, Syndrome, Campaign, or John Davidson was in the audience promoting a documentary about the disability. He had unfortunate vocal outbursts. The BBC apologized for that oversight. Talk about the Oscars very quickly. What will politics be front in the center? There shouldn't be a lot of Trump jokes would be my guess. You know, the last couple years that haven't been

“as many Trump jokes. Certainly not like there were in 2017 and 2018. I think the industry”

kind of recognized and they were kind of trying not to in rage and poke the bear a little bit. But the ice stuff, I think this past year, I think it will certainly be front in the center. But it's not Kimmel. It's Conan. Conan is not as political and they picked him for that reason

because they don't want to turn, you know, I've always argued that the politics stuff

is not in the best interest. People tune it out. If you ever watched one of these awards shows with your more conservative relatives. Yes, I have. They turn it off. They don't want to be lectured to. But it's okay at the Grammys. I feel like the Grammys are our musicians, like they're supposed to be outrageous. And that's kind of fun. Although, you know, obviously, when Ted Serando's was in DC for the hearing, all the sudden it turned into Ted Cruz talking

about what Billy Eilish said in the Grammys. And it's like, that didn't even air on Netflix. I know they didn't do it. Netflix. He's a moron, another moron. He's never going to be president,

“Ted. Just so you know, because nobody likes you. I think honestly, the themes of this year's”

two big contender centers, which is about kind of the the stolen black identity and and and

and one by laughter and other, which is basically about an antifa type organization and the aftermath

of that. I think because of that, you might see a little bit more of that. Yes, at least suddenly from the winners. I don't think Ryan Coogler or Paul Thomas Anderson are the kinds to to get up and start lecturing. But there will be a little bit. They'll make a remarker to you. It'll be a woman who does it in case you're interested. So let's do a quick lightning round. Who do you predict will win best actor? This is the race of the year. Yeah. I'm going with Chalamet. I'm going with Jordan.

You are. Why is that? Because of the online backlash to him saying that ballet and opera are not cool anymore? No, I don't really care about ballet. I don't know. No, but that people think that Timmy Lossiosker because he made disparaging comments about it. I don't really care about it.

But voting had basically closed. You think the singer's momentum is going to propel Michael Jordan.

but you know, it never, the body of work never matters. Sometimes it does. In this case,

it's a great movie, and people, you know, for the last one they just did, people are remembering what a great movie it was. Yeah, I would love it. And Michael be Jordan is great. I have seen sinners several times. I've never seen Timote. I just don't want to look at him. Just don't look at him. I don't want to look at him. He looks like a lesbian. He looks like a someone I dated in the 1980s. Oh, my God. Really. Anyway. Yeah. Okay. Very pretty guy.

Best actress. Jessie Buckley. Buckley. You see him in? I can't see it because dead children. I can't do it. It's tough, but it's rewarding. It's rewarding. I love her period. Even though I'm

“sorry about the bride, but I've always loved her. I think she's great. And everybody seems to”

think she's the best one there. The only, the only stunner would be Rose Burn for a firelegs. I'd

kick you. But Jessie Buckley has won everything. Jessie Buckley is overwhelmingly the odds on favorite. Best original screenplay. I think it's going to be sinners. That's a shoe in. Yeah. That's the one. We at least know Couglar will have one moment on stage because even if he doesn't win director picture, he'll win screenplay. Yeah. All right. Director. Paul Thomas Anderson. Okay. He's one all of the precursor award. All right. I just feel like Couglar. I love I would let that's who I want

together. Yeah. You know, don't forget the Academy has a big international branch. Oh, yeah. And the international voters. He's just been around a longer time. I know. And he, it's one of those where people feel like it's his time. Do the Oscars matter anymore? Does it matter for the business or what? Because it's for the business. Certainly. The declining viewership, declining, declining, declining. Do they matter for the business? Why? They do. And they matter because of the

streaming wars. The box office of these movies is not really impacted that much by the Oscars like it used to be where you'd platform release and all of a sudden a movie that got a best picture

nomination would gross $300 million by the time the show. That doesn't happen anymore. But the value

of these titles in a sea of tiles on a streaming server. It is a differentiator and Netflix and Amazon and Apple and Dizzy. They all see huge value in having an Oscar winner on the platform. And there's lots more awards now too. Those matter too. Yeah. All the precursors and it's a season. It's a great promotion. It's a way to lure talent. The reason Netflix spends so much on their campaigns is because they know they have to win people over because they don't offer theaters. So they say,

you know, what we may not offer you the chance to gross $100 million, but we're going to treat Frankenstein like it's the most special movie that you've ever made. We're going to have screenings for all the Academy members, all the festivals, and we're going to spend $20 million to get you an Oscar nomination and they did. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. So I'm still not going. Sorry. Some day,

“if I promised you that crews would be there and that you could meet him, would you come with me?”

Yes. If I could meet him, really not just like we run into him and like we chase him or I'm not doing that. I'm over chasing any celebrity, right? Okay. All right. My new goal. Let me just tell you. I like to wear soft pants. And so we take a lot to not get me in soft pants. I'm just telling you. But I'm going to about to be a TV star. You know, just with my TV show, Kara Swisher wants to live forever on CNN. And then I shall depart CNN. Good.

But are you, are you going to, what kind of clothes are you going to wear on your show? You'll see my, my outfits, my very long way. Not formal. No, very comfortable. It's going to be great. It's going to be great. What do you wear to the Mani fare park? Are you didn't wear a dress? No. I didn't. I just didn't dress up. I couldn't do it. I'm sorry. No one cares what I look like. I just look at people and go up to them. Well, I love it that I just have to wear a taxi. No, it's very well,

that you look good in that. You look, I just can't do it. And I don't want to wear a taxi because how lesbian is that. Anyway, last question. You've said you'd make a lot more money if you left park and went into Penn and I told you that. You and I just for disclosure, he and I talk about the business of the being independent journalists all the time. When the 2027 Oscars roll around, will you still be at park or why or why now? We'll talk a little bit about this because you did very

kindly say you want to be like me someday, but you already are like me someday. I don't have a CNN show. And I do make a lot more money than you, man. I know this. But talk about what it's like to be an independent journalist. I mean, I was very touched when you said that. But what, how do you feel about doing what you're doing? Because you and I have both come up in traditional, you know, whether you were at the wherever you were and I was at the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal and I

didn't, I didn't work for the New York Times, but I wrote for them. Talk a little bit about where

“we are right now is media because you have more influence than almost anybody. I think anybody”

in this thing. So how do you look at this moment? How do you think about it as someone who's doing independent media, which is growing in impact and influence and finances? I do really well. And I think you do too. The way I describe it to people who asked me about this and they ask a lot

is providing to you, then you should probably leave and go independent and leverage the fact that

“you are the brand. And I was sort of dumb. I didn't really recognize that until I started out”

and started doing my newsletter. And maybe I, you know, I created a product that people like and I made a more of an impact when I was independent. But I had a lot of cashier, more cashier than I thought, when I launched Pock. People called me back. They returned my emails. They invited me to things. They, I had 20 years of relationships in this world that allowed me to go out and do this, this thing on my own. And I, I don't want to downplay the role that Pock played. It's sort of a

hybrid. Yeah. I was our first author and I kind of planned to flag of what the brand would be. But Pock has provided a lot of services. I thought I feel about that. Yeah, they, they, they provide editing. They provide the platform. They provide marketing. They help me put on events that you don't want to do. Then I don't, that stuff I don't want to do. And I've done it. I used to joke that my

“day was consumed by meetings at holiday reporter. And that's what you have to do when you're running a”

media outlet. Now I actively say, do I need to be in this meeting? And the answer is almost always

no. And I'm really able to focus on the product. And that's, that's where I think I can make a big impact. Yeah. You just call the, it's a product like the McDonald's. See, you know, but go ahead. I know. You just, just me, if you watch me eating a burger, it's a lot more authentic than that guy. Yeah. But, but you know what I mean? It's, it's, um, it's totally doable for a certain type of reporter editor, especially if you have something to say. Yeah. Like, if you have to ask yourself,

like, do I have, do I have a perspective? Do I have a point of view on things? And most people don't. It's also based in reporting one of the best, it's a thing that I ever heard from an editor, it was Tina Brown where she said, I can teach people to write, but I can't teach them to see, you know, and she met reporting. And I thought that was exactly right. You can sometimes, I wouldn't, I don't even recognize it. I'll do, I'll do a newsletter that I don't think is particularly

incisive. And people will respond. They'll be like, wow, I hadn't thought of that. So like, if you do this long enough, it sort of just comes out of you. And that's really where the podcast is where the town came from, because we were like, what are people in town talking about? And how do we reflect that in a show that would be authentic? All right, very, very, very last question. What's the most interesting story going to be in 2027 in Hollywood? Go, oh, at the end of the next year,

over the next year. If you were like, what's the one that treats you the very most? I know I get

“worn amounts interesting, but honestly, they're just going to lose a lot of money. Do you think”

Rupert's going to die in a year? I think he's never going to die. Okay. So that's all the paper. Yes,

okay, that's a great one. What happens when Rupert dies? Because I think that the Murdock Empire is going to change significantly. Yes. I think that the news papers will either be sold, or carved up, or, you know, that what's going to happen to the Fox Broadcasting that all of that stuff is in play. You know, the succession battle is over, but when Rupert's gone, I think all bets are off. All right. And who's the most important player? If you had to pick one right now going

forward, if you say that person is critical. I think two, Josh tomorrow and David Ellis, terms of what they're going to do. They've got the most choices to make. Right. And choices are what it's all about. What you choose to do and don't do, the bets you make, the transformative deals that you okay, all of that. And who's going to be more successful? Do you want to make it? I don't know. I want them both to be successful for the benefit of the industry. No, nice. But you know what,

in terms of track record, obviously tomorrow has a, has a track record of success in the park division at Disney. And we'll see how he does a top, the whole thing. Yeah. David Ellison doesn't have as much experience. He ran a small-ish production company and is now running to studios. So we'll see how that goes. But we'll see he's got a lot of smart people around him.

He, well, we'll see who stays right. I'll see who comes around and stuff like it. I always go with

the person who didn't get their job by being born, by the, in any industry except for Rupert Murdoch. Yeah. But he took a small operation and made a huge global. Yeah, same with Brian Roberts at Comcast. Yeah. Same with some of Redstone. You know, he took a small theater company. Yeah. But I don't think I don't love, you know, people being born and getting a job. I don't love it. I don't love it. Never love it. Well, we certainly wouldn't be talking about David Ellison as the, you know, second most powerful

Yep. And here we are. All right. Matt, this has been so fascinating. You are a wonderful journalist.

“You really are. And I put that first and foremost. Well, I appreciate it. I, you know, I'm a fan.”

You're a snarky person, which I love. But, and I love that part, but at your heart, you're an excellent

reporter. And that's the critical part, everybody, just for just so you know, for both of us is snarky and

“obnoxious. Yes, snark doesn't sell. No one's just rides to snark. They like it. They do like it.”

It's, it's got, my point, you always got to have everything. You got to be entertaining. You got to be

newsy. You got to have reporting. And you got to have smart perspective. Yep. Absolutely. And you have all that.

“Anyway, thank you so much. It was really fun. I really, really looking forward to it. Thank you so much.”

Oscars 27, you and me. Okay. All right. You get it going. All right. Okay. Thank you, Matt. Today's show was produced by Christian Castro Rosal, Michelle Aloy, Katherine Mills-Sop, Megan Bernie, and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Madeline LaPlante, Dooby, and Corinne Ruff. This episode was engineered by Elia Jackson Perez, and our theme music is

by Tracodemix. If you're following the show, you get to run CBS News. If not, you're a NEPO mogul. Go wherever you listen to podcasts search for on with Keroswisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Keroswisher from podium media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media podcast network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more. [BLANK_AUDIO]