The Red Weather | E8 | The End of the Imagination

Her husband Mike was on his laptop.

“What was on his screen would change Sasuke's life forever.”

- I said I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing. And immediately, the mask came off. - You're supposed to be safe. That's your home, that's your husband. - Listen to betrayal season five

on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - I'm Nancy Glass, host of the burden of guilt season two podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpride became the victim

of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything. - I was a monster. - Listen to burden of guilt season two on the I-Heart Radio app.

Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - Welcome to Texas. - I heard in TikTok have come together to create something new. - I love it.

- We're the world of TikTok meets your playlist.

- Three words that will change your life. - I heard TikTok radio. The biggest hits across I-Heart Radio. - I'm too messy. - What's trending for you on TikTok?

- Tonya's sound is better than this. ♪ TikTok radio ♪

“- Plus TikTok's most influential creators all in one place.”

Search for I-Heart TikTok radio. Make it a preset and stay connected all day. - Everyone needs to take care of their mental health. Even running back to these young robins. - When I'm on the field that filmed the pressure,

usually just take a deep breath. When I was breathing and seeing what's in front of me, everything just slows down. It just makes it feel great before I run the play. - Just like these young, we all need a strong mental game.

- One and off the field. Make a game plan for your mental health.

- I love your mind, playbook, that org.

- Love your mind. - Brought to you by the Huntsman Mental Health Foundation, the Arthur M. Blink Family Foundation, and the ad council. - The Red Weather is a work of fiction. Any resemblance to actual persons or events

reflects the adaptation of real publicly available materials for creative and legal reasons. The content of this podcast is the sole responsibility of Red Weather LLC and does not reflect the views of responsibilities of high-art media or its affiliates.

- Previously, on the Red Weather. - I found that tape in my car when Anna left it with a bunch of her books, and when I heard it, that's when I knew she was banged some older guy. - It also can't be true that age is a matter,

which by the way, you say all the time. All of a sudden, she's missing school late nights, taking the car out, he wore it down, that's something a bit worn down.

“- Jesus, do you remember Jacob Wyman, the English teacher?”

- Wyman landed in hot water last semester when several parents noticed he had included the novel "Damage" by Josephine Hart on his fall reading list. - I needed to see that book. So the sheriff's department is here.

What? - Yeah, because I don't care if you're some little shit that is serious. - There are parts of my conversation with Mick Bowden that I didn't include earlier.

It didn't seem relevant. - Who actually came at you with a bat? - I remember the Phantom of the Opera or whatever. That's why I took him out and said, "Kid went down hard."

- He took him out and he wasn't getting back up. - Okay. - We were talking about the night and a trainer disappeared. - Oh, wait.

No fucking way. - Christen Zia quite the same. - Took me out. I think I'd remember that. - Anyway, Mick and I were going back and forth

and at one point, he said this. - It's just lucky I didn't have a gun. - That's a weird thing to say. - Well, I'm not making a point, okay? - If you caught up with a bat, if I had a gun.

- Okay, if you caught up with a bat, if I had a gun, - Okay, if you caught up with a bat, if you caught up with a bat, if I had a gun, if I had a gun. Like in your car, did you have a gun? - No, of course.

- What about your house? - No. - Did you? - No, obviously not. - What do you mean, obviously not,

you let it up like on the back of the hood. - Okay, no, but hold on. You didn't have a gun at your house in your house. When you grew up, yeah, my dad. I mean, we had hunting rifles.

- Okay, multiple guns. - Okay, let's just, can we just calm down and take a step back? - Why? - We're getting off track here.

- We're not off track. - Yeah, we have a finger at me. I'm just pointing it right back at you. - Mick had recorded our conversation the same time I did. - They're searching the house,

they're going through all the closets and outside. - The Sonoma County Sheriff's Office had shown up at my parents' house, but the search warrant. My brother Shiloh called me while I was still in Colorado. I thought Mick's recording was all about intimidation,

a power move, a bluff to keep me honest. - What are they looking for? Guns. - But obviously, it was more than that. I am actor and filmmaker writer Strong.

This is The Red Web. (upbeat music)

- I mean, I have to go because my parents are freaking out.

Instead of flying back to LA, I needed to get to Northern California, but that would mean my wife, Alex, would miss out on an acting job. - It's the one-day guest car I can move without it.

“Is it you should come home, stop recording, call the lawyer.”

- Why? - This is total bullshit. No, this whole thing, they have a warrant. They have a reason to be there. They have a legal document.

You have nothing, you have just your podcast. Like, what are you not telling me? - Nothing. - What do you mean? Are you seriously asking me that?

What? I'm not trying to hide anything from you. I mean, you left out the abortion and you helped your ex get. - Oh my God. I can't believe you're bringing that up again.

It's, I hope that you're joking. - I'm not joking. I know you told you said you told me that I really do not remember and I feel like that's something I would remember.

It's pretty bad, man. - My buddy Connor didn't hold back. - Well, I mean, I think what she's mad about is that I've been gone for so long, you know, all this time. Or she's mad about exactly what she's telling you.

She's mad about. - You know, when you said you were doing this podcast, I thought Willow was like a friend when your kids. - Yes. - And then I find out more.

- You know, that's when we were teenagers, it got a little complicated.

“- Do you remember the night we wrote that song?”

- Connor was talking about one of the first times

he met Alex. - Yeah, I know. It's very similar. - It's the same thing. - Connor had flown into LA to visit

and the three of us went out for a big dinner, had a fun night. And when we got back to the house, Alex went to bed. Connor and I stayed up. Before he became an academic, Connor was a musician.

We used to do shows together. And that night, we stayed up until sunrise, playing guitar and writing a song. - We were very intoxicated. And we were not quiet.

- Writing a song that was dealing with love and loss. And it was quite a, yes, a dramatic sort of weird loud. And you were singing at the top of your lungs. And she did come in and tell us to shut up several times. - Alex was trying to sleep,

which was problem number one. But then when she came out to tell us to be quiet,

“she heard the lyrics to what we were writing.”

And found out we were writing a song about an ex-girlfriend of mine. You've got to be totally up front with her, like an open book. - When I called from the airport,

I got Alex's voice, man. - Hey, look, I know you're upset. And I understand, but I also, you know, I want you to be able to have the whole picture. So I think you would link,

if that's gonna send you to a Dropbox or you can download all seven of the episodes so far that I have edited the Ralph Cuds. And I'd be listened to them. You'll see that Willow is such a small part of this.

It's really, it's not about her. If it really is about Anna. Anyway, give me a call later and we can talk. I love you, bye. - Hey guys, hey, yeah, no, I found a part of it.

- How are you? - Hey, okay, you really got to be freaked out. - I know, I'm sorry. - It took me all day to get to my parents. The sheriff's department was long gone.

- Yeah, so I was into the back house and I looked up and I just happened to see them. I had the lights on, they came down, and then they were piled out and everybody comes in here and then they grab mom and dad

and bring them outside. And I don't know. So I walked down and then they, they saw me. I was like, you know, what the fuck? (laughing)

Take me out like, put this in a little area and then they start taking each of us individually and start interviewing, but we couldn't talk to each other. And they're just asking about guns. They're just saying like, where they had a search warrant.

They gave me a warrant. - Roy's a search warrant, let me see that. Let me, this says they're searching for what's listed in attachment B and God. Okay, so attachment B says one firearms of any make or model

- The gun thing might seem a little out of character. But for all my parents, Bohemian tendencies, my dad was raised in rural Pennsylvania where he grew up hunting. He was in the Marines.

So he made sure to teach us how to shoot.

I got my first rifle when I was six

and I'm not talking of BB gun. It was a 22. I'm actually very anti-gun these days or at least very pro gun control.

He has them locked and stored these days,

but when we were kids, there was just a closet off of my parents room that had all of them. - Including but not limited to rifles and handguns, chambered in 257 Roberts caliber or any other caliber consistent with ballistic evidence

for that. So how many guns did they take? They took all of them? - Everyone I had, yeah. - Has they're looking for a match? - Monica was talking about the bullets and evidence

for covered from a tree. - No, that's not what this is. This is publicity, this is just retaliation. You know, Mick sends him on a witch hunt and they know that it's a witch hunt,

but they still do it because they're pissed off for what you and I did. - Well, I mean, it doesn't make sense. I mean, she disappeared within a mile and there's what?

There's guns that you're property, okay, so I get it. I'm literally making a podcast

where I'm trying to solve the case.

- Oh, this is not news. Odie, I killer sent letters to the San Francisco Chronicle. - It's been there with B.P.K. He haunted the press for years. - Okay. - Oh, don't.

“- Question, your parents, do they ever lock their doors?”

- No, it's about, I mean, they're on the middle and nowhere never. - Exactly, so somebody actually could walk into their house. They could find a gun and then, but they would have to know that there are guns there.

- Oh, that's the point. You are in the woods, you willow. - And Chris, Connor, Orion, we were all together. - But you didn't stay at your house. - No, we walked to Connor's house.

- That's what I told you that. - Why? - What do you mean? - Why didn't you stay at your house? You were right there.

- Because we had, it was the, - Your whole family, no one from your family was home? - Ah, no, I mean, my parents weren't home. They were standard of friends, cabin. - And your brother?

- Hey, hey, where did you go after this party? - My brother was outside cleaning up. The sheriff's department had left a mess. - Are you fucking kidding me? - I'm kidding, I just helped you with that.

- I will, relax. - My parents don't have trash service, so they have to bring it to the dump themselves every few months. And the sheriff's office had emptied it all out

into the grass. It was a month's worth of trash and complete disarray. - I'm just trying to figure out how it all went.

“So you were at the party and then where did you go?”

- Was with Aaron, we went downtown. - Okay. - And did you come back to the house? - No, my crushed parents. - This is why I'm trying to wind them up as here.

Like the parents were in total in October. - Oh, 'cause the septic. - I had forgotten about this. - When they built the house, my parents had to put in their own septic tank.

And that month in 1995, it had failed. - Oh, with the guy came in yet, he could have pumped every three, four years. And the guy that came in and pumped it the last time. Look at that.

He said, oh, you know, this whole septic tank is so good. Anyway, he got to replace this. He said, why? He's looking here. You look and you see there's moss or something going inside

from the roots. He goes, yeah, the trees are getting into it. You got to replace this. - My dad was originally going to do it himself, but it turned out to be a really big job.

It was a full-on excavation. There was a cement tank, about 10 feet by 10 feet with leech lines. So we were all staying at other people's houses while a crew came in with backos.

They dug up the old tank and put the new one in. - Yes, so the whole that back hillside was torn up and you couldn't use the bathroom. - Oh, that's fine. Oh, oh, there was a box among the junk.

- What the hell? This is the painter. It was a box that we had packed up with a pager we'd found on the property. There was a chance that it was anus.

So we had meant to send it off to Lyle Rinkin, who was a specialist in older technology,

but the package had never made it to UPS.

- Hey, it's Ryder Strong. I'm Christopher. - I called Rinkin as it started to rain. - Listen, I know why you never got that pager. It was actually never mailed off.

It just got lost in the shuffle. I'm so sorry about that.

“- Well, if it's all right, can I overnight it to you?”

Is that okay? - I really appreciate it. - Yeah, I'm gonna all send it off today. - Great. - Thank you so much.

- All right. - Is he really thinking you can get something off of him? - I mean, my little trash, right? - Shadow and I walked back to the house to get out of the rain. - Who is your painter?

- One, four, five, because it's shy upside down. (laughing) Like everybody had six, six, six, six, six, four, 69. - Well, that's why Chris is was '96,

because it was, he called it the Antis69, like two people facing the way for each other. He was the married couple. (laughing) - Thank you.

- Did they search the garage? - No, I don't think so. - Because Dad keeps that one done. - Really? - Yeah.

- A few years back, there was a mountain line in the area.

and he wanted to have a rifle nearby.

- It was still in the garage. (gunshot) - Yeah. (gunshot) - You don't know, they missed it.

Well, what do we do? We turn it in. - Well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well.

“This is, I think about this for a second.”

- Think about what? - Right, or, think about what? (dramatic music) (dramatic music) - Segregation in the day, integration at night.

(dramatic music) - When segregation was the law, one mysterious black club owner had his own rules. - We didn't worry about what went on outside. It was like stepping out another whirlwind. (laughing)

- Inside Charlie's place, black and white people danced together,

but not everyone was happy about it. (dramatic music) - You saw the KKK? - Yeah, they were just up in that uniform. The KKK set out to Ray Charlie taken away from here.

- Charlie was an example, a poem. They had a crush in it. - From Atlas Obscura, Rococo Punch and Visit Murdoch Beach comes Charlie's place. A story that was nearly lost to time.

Until now, listen to Charlie's place on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. - Welcome to KKK. - I heard in TikTok have come together to create something new.

I love it. - We're the world of TikTok meets your playlist. - Three words that will change your life. - I heard TikTok radio.

The biggest hits across I-Hart Radio.

(upbeat music) - What's trending for you on TikTok? - Tell me you found that's better than this. (upbeat music) - TikTok radio.

- Atlas TikTok's most influential creators all in one place. Search for I-Hart TikTok radio. Make it a preset and stay connected all day. - Everyone needs to take care of their mental health,

even running back beach on Robinson. - When I'm on the field and I feel in the pressure, usually just take a deep breath. When I was breathing and seeing what's in front of me, everything just slows down.

It just makes you feel great before I run the play. - Just like these on, we all need a strong mental game on and off the field. Make a game playing for your mental health. - I love your mind, playbook, that org.

- Love your body. - Brought to you by the Huntsman Mental Health Foundation, the Arthur Inblink Family Foundation, and the ad council. - I'm Anna Navarro, and I'm a new podcast, bleep with Anna Navarro.

I'm talking to the people closest to the biggest issues happening in your community and around the world. Because I know deep down inside right now, we are all cursing and asking, what the bleep is going on.

I'm talking to people like Julie Cape Brown, who broke the explosive story on Jeffrey Epstein in 2018. These victims have been let down time and time again. For decades and decades and decades, by local law enforcement,

by federal law enforcement, by administration after administration. - They just this department through, I think we counted for presidential administrations, failed these victims.

- Listen to bleep with Anna Navarro as part of the Michael Duda podcast. - Are they available on the I-Hart Radio app? Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. - I wanna believe that truth wins out,

that if you're a good person or at least an innocent person, you don't have anything to worry about. - Well, it's their fault that they didn't find it, right? So why should I help them?

“- To solve the case, that's what you want, isn't it?”

- Yes, but do I want them to solve the case? - This is exactly the situation where people get completely screwed. Isn't it? They think they're helping and they answer all the questions, they don't get a lawyer and they end up in jail

for the rest of their lives. - You didn't do anything. - Yes, I know that, but suddenly my fingerprints end up on a bullet. - Why was your fingerprints end up on a bullet?

- They didn't plant something, they make it. They've already overstepped. Do you think you can trust them? Do you trust cops? - Well, I mean, do a certain extent, no, okay.

This is why you have law. You get to a right point and you say, okay, whatever, hand it off to them. - Okay, I mean, I think at this point, I don't think they deserve any of my help.

That's, that's what I want to say the way I feel. - You're just being paranoid, was I? - I mean, here was a sheriff's department, rating my parents' house, while all the evidence that I had been gathering

was pointing in a new promising direction. I'd come to think of it as the Mr. Wrong Theory.

“I'd piece together that Anna was in a secret,”

an inappropriate relationship with an older guy, and they had a plan to run away. It was seeming more and more likely that she could have met up with him on the night that she disappeared.

a teacher named Jacob Wyman.

“- He was really young, and I think maybe that's part of it,”

that he seemed kind of like, there was that simultaneous, like, you know, he almost trying to be our friends and then at the same time, you know, like, no, you gotta do this essay,

you gotta give it an untime, whatever. So like, he seemed more, you know, like Ernest and really, you know, wanting to connect with people and communicate and ethos of light. - I needed to see a book that was an evidence

of the sheriff's department, a copy of Damage by Josephine Hart. If it had handwritten notes that matched the other books both Anna and Willow had, then it would point decisively towards Mr. Wrong,

and by extension, Jacob Wyman. I wanted nothing more than to tell Sheriff Maldonado. I thought since he was retired, maybe he would be open to helping me. - Your call has been forwarded to an automatic voice message

for them. - But he still wasn't taking my calls. - Oh, screw those guys. - Yes, that's what I'm saying, and Shiloh thinks I'm crazy. - No, he's crazy, you're fine.

- Oh, hey, I'm on Burnside right now.

“I'm like literally passing where we were,”

where we were that morning. - Hi, hell yeah. - Turn on and it's stone to be plenty of that, and imagine it's Orion's singing. - No, even Shiloh days.

Wait, was that it was a Shiloh day? - Yes, of course. It was like the epic Shiloh days performance. - Well, just come back to LA and let's think, blow over there and nothing there.

It got less than nothing. - I knew Chris was right. I needed to get home, not only to LA low, but also to try and smooth things over with Alex. But then on the way to drop the pager off at UPS,

I drove past little seed. The fruit stand that Maldonado had taken me to, and I saw that Andres was working. Hey, Andres, drier, oh, yeah, hey. There for some, some best berries.

It's cool that I'm recording. I wasn't hungry though.

“I was hoping you could help me reach Maldonado.”

- Hey, listen, have you seen Robert? - Wait, wait, have you seen Maldonado? - No, really. I mean, maybe last Sunday, okay. - Yeah, I'm just trying to get a hold of him.

You guys are friends, right? - No, I wouldn't say friends, but yeah.

- Okay, this though, I never charge him.

- When I asked why, Andres told me how in 1990, his family's life was upended when his grandfather died. The county treated the inheritance as a transfer, and reassessed their whole farm at market rates. Suddenly, their taxes doubled.

They were gonna lose the property. - And your family's around here with deep pockets? That wasn't us, you know, we were broke. Plus, we didn't have the right last name. What do you mean?

- Well, if you had something that sounded Italian or Irish, you know, you were great, you know, problem. - Maldonado didn't know Andres's family, not personally. But he heard about what was happening. And he told him about the Williamson Act,

a way to lock the land into agricultural status and avoid the reassessment. But they still had to get through county bureaucracy. - And he fought for us. - He pissed off some people good, you know,

with a couple council members and all that shit and they just kind of walked out. But he didn't know us. And they got, he still tries to pay me. Every time he stops by.

- Anyways, that is a long story. I'm about to get bored. - Listen, if you talked to him with you, see Maldonado, you tell him something for me. Here, say this, tell him that I don't like the story,

but I'm letting the evidence tell him. - I got back in my car and went back to my parents. And then I drove to the sheriff's department. - I'm not gonna lie, it was awkward. - Hi, hi.

I have something that I need to get to Grace Locklin or Thomas Greer, but I can't really, I'm not sure how to bring it in. - I'm sorry. - Well, it's evidence for a case and it's a gun.

- A deputy came out to my car and got it. The next morning before I left for LA, I got an email from Alex. She hadn't written anything, she just forwarded an old email that I had sent to her in 2010.

It took a moment for me to know what I was reading.

It was an email where I told her about getting my first

short story published. It's the same story that I talked about last episode, the one that was inspired by my road trip with Willow. Alex had obviously listened to the episode

I told her that I'd written the story about her about her.

“- So it was about Alex or was it about Willow?”

- Well, that's the thing, both. I mean, I wrote it when I was 30 when you were already with Alex. - Yes, but I was looking back at this time and I was combining things, you know?

Think of people, you mean people. All right, but the story was about getting serious with Alex, you know, it was about commitment. So it was about Alex at its core. I mean, you know, thematically, thematically about you

is not a great thing to tell your wife. - This was an even worse version of keeping her up all night with our song. Oh, when I got home, Alex wouldn't let me record. Our son Indie was there and we put on a good front.

We didn't talk about it, but later Indie had gymnastics. I dropped him off and I came home.

Alex and I finally had a chance to talk.

Partway through the conversation, I began to record on my phone. - Well, I got down, I just, whatever's happening here is making me wonder how you feel about me, okay?

- Like, oh, you're just gonna question 15 years of marriage. - I guess. - Because you're chasing Anna, Willow. Do you even care about them as people? - Oh my God, yes, that's the whole point of this thing.

We think about it. I'm all I'm doing is thinking about them as people, trying to get to know them, I'm doing all these interviews and asking all these people, like, I'm trying to get them know them better to understand them more.

Are you in any willow? What are you talking about? Of course, the sheriff is a woman. Like, the person I've been talking to the most is Monica, the journalist, you know what?

- No, I mean, from Anna's life, from your life. Have you interviewed any girls that you grew up with? - I haven't. I talked to a mom, but I don't expect them to say it. - Why?

You are trying to understand a girl who might have been killed

or run away, but you never talked to any of the women

who knew her, just the dudes who knew her. - No, I just don't see it, it's not that-- - No, no, I don't see what's the point. - Of course, of course, it's not, well, of course, there's no point to it, that's not the point of this, right?

'Cause it's about you and your guy friends making yourselves feel better about what? Just ignoring girls back then, because if they didn't date you or didn't fuck you, they didn't really count.

- Okay, I got it. - I got it.

“- But you have to trust this whole culture,”

because as questioning the why, okay, you're right, you're right, maybe. - Oh, are you recording this? - Alex, I am. - Oh, my God, no, I'm getting to the point.

- No, no, no, no, no. - According to the project, I look to, I asked you to talk to me. - I am to come home to talk to me to really talk to me. - Yes, and I am to say to you.

- You were secretly recording me? - I, it's my dog. - Oh my God, please, no, please, no, please, no, please, no, please. - Alex, she didn't want me at the house and I didn't blame her.

- Dead man, working on me. - I don't call it shit. - Hi. - Chris, let me stay with him. He and his wife Fiona met me at the door.

- Nice. - Hi, of course. - Oh my God. - He forgot the cardinal rule, buddy. Happy wife, happy life.

- I hate that saying. - But it's true, I mean, this is why I tell Fiona, nothing. - Well, where do you expectations? - Yeah, he is joking, but also not joking.

- Women are complex emotional creatures,

which will never be president.

- Oh, Chris, it's true, though. - I'm kidding, but seriously, it's probably her time in the month. - Oh, okay, all right, good night, good night to you. - I know, he said too much for me, you know, God forbid.

- Give her time, time heals all wounds, especially if you're a creature who bleeds a few days a month and doesn't die from now. - Stop, stop, stop. - I'm getting this.

- Thank you. - Chris didn't have a gastroom, which meant I was sleeping on the couch and his living room. - I mean, I just think that this whole day,

this whole project is being directed by guilt. Are you confessing, Brandon? - Yeah, you know what I'm saying, I'm just telling you. - So, I'm confessing to something a lot more boring than murder.

It's just that Alex is right, like I weeks doing this recording. I didn't interview a single girl from our teens. - Whatever, you would have interviewed Will, but she hadn't, I don't know what I, I mean, she inspired this thing, you know?

“Do you remember in 2004 or five or whatever”

when I found the pictures of her online?

somewhat early in the days of internet porn

and in a crazy coincidence, I came across photos of Willow naked. - Yeah, you found photos of her, the kind of like amateur porn photos number online, in a kitchen maybe?

“- I just remember being really kind of saddened by that”

because that was when I really fully appreciated how desperate she was for attention and also possibly money. It was a real DIY kind of job. - They weren't professional, but also not private. The worst part, she was wearing her same old fairy wings

and nothing else. - Well, I see them, I find them and then what do I do? I immediately download them, put them in an email, send to you and Connor and I don't even know who else and be unlike, oh my God, look what I just found.

- Yeah, 'cause there's crazy, of course she says. If I would have found them out of center to you and Connor too, I think the same exact thing. - Okay, yes, it's crazy, but my reaction wasn't, oh God, I should maybe reach out to Willow

and tell her that this is up on the internet. - Maybe be sex positive, she may have wanted them out there. She may have wanted to do that. You could have been good for her, she's living her best.

- But I never, I never thought that.

Instead, I mean, I was just like, oh my God, look at Willow's doing, I can't wait to show the guys. - So, so, if you think about it, I only found on the photos because I was actually looking for porn.

“Look, I'm the target guy, that's why those photos are up there”

in the first place, right? So, what's up with me, right? How can I be like, oh, I want to find naked chicks on one hand and then also be like, oh shit, my friends naked online, help a fetic or funny or awful.

- Or all three. - All three. - Right then, I got a call. - Oh, I gotta take this. - Okay.

- I recognized Maldonado's number.

After checking with him, I called him back

so I could record it. - All right, yeah, it's, I got it recording now. - So, I heard the Maldonado said, I appreciate that. - Yeah, no, thanks for calling. I've been, you know, I'm piecing together a lot here.

And mostly I've been zeroing on this teacher, this guy named Jacob Wyman. I don't know if he ever came up. - Listen, listen, it was good that he turned that way for it. - Of course.

“- No, I've gotten nothing to hide, you know,”

I don't know what Mek is telling you or FAM. - Yeah, look, look, I want to be clear here. - All right, I'm not in the department. Got it? - Yeah.

- I'm retired. - Right, yeah, no, I know. - Okay, so this is a citizen just calling another citizen who appreciates the honest, so I'm gonna be honest with you as a citizen, okay.

That rifle that you gave lock-in, that's a 257 Rogers. That's a very rare calendar. Oh, okay, what do you mean? There might be a 102/57s in the whole county.

There are one of them since 10 minutes from where we pulled those slugs out of a tree. I'd be surprised if it's not a match. They're gonna run ballistics because that's standard. We're all ready, I can tell right now,

it doesn't look good, man. - Welcome, check this. I heard in TikTok have come together to create something new. I love it. - We're the world of TikTok meets your playlist.

- Three words that will change your life. - I heard TikTok radio. The biggest hits across I Heart Radio. What's trending for you on TikTok? - Tell me a sound that's better than this.

- I know, I know. - TikTok radio. - Plus TikTok's most influential creators all in one place. Search for I Heart TikTok radio. Make it a preset and stay connected all day.

- Segregation in the day, integration at night. Segregation was the law. One mysterious black club owner had his own rules. - We didn't worry about what we were on outside. It was like sippin' on another world.

(laughing) - Inside Charlie's place, black and white people danced together. But not everyone was happy about it. - When you saw the KKK? - Yeah, they were just up in that uniform.

The KKK set out to Ray Charlie, take 'em away from here. - Charlie wasn't an example, a power. They had to crush it. - From Atlas Ipskira, Rukoko Punch,

and visit Murdoch Beach, comes Charlie's place. A story that was nearly lost to time. Until now, listen to Charlie's place on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

even running back Beach on Robinson.

“- When I'm on the field that filmed the pressure,”

usually just take a deep breath. When I was breathing and seeing what's in front of me, everything just slows down. It just makes you feel great before I run the play. - Just like Beach on, we all need a strong mental game

on and off the field. Make a game plan for your mental health. At Love Your Mind, Playbook, Back or Work. - Love your body. - Brought to you by the Huntsman Mental Health Foundation,

the author in Blank Family Foundation, and the ad council. - I'm Anna Navarro, and I'm a new podcast, believe with Anna Navarro. I'm talking to the people closest to the biggest issues happening in your community and around the world.

Because I know deep down inside right now,

we are all cursing and asking, what the bleep is going on? - I'm talking to people at Julie Cape Brown, who broke the explosive story on Jeffrey Epstein in 2018. These victims have been let down time and time again.

For decades and decades and decades, by local law enforcement, by federal law enforcement, by administration after administration. - They're just this department through, I think we counted for presidential administrations,

failed these victims. - Listen to Bleep with Anna Navarro as part of the Michael Duda podcast. Available on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

If Maldonata was right about the gun, then Jacob Wyman didn't make any sense. It had to be someone who knew there were guns in my parents' house. - And he says it doesn't look good, my man, like what?

- I called Monica to fill her in.

“- But you have to believe that I went crazy,”

walking to my parents' house, God gun, and then came back out and just randomly found Anna on her look. It's not random or crazy if you're in a relationship with her.

- Okay fine, I never even talked to Anna,

but sure fine, I'm in a relationship with her. And I'm the guy, and I planned to beat up with her, and I shot her, and then I went, I just, I magically made her body disappear. Very good, sure, I buried it.

And I didn't say anything to Monica, but right then something did occur to me. The septic work, the reason my parents were gone, the reason Chylonai were staying at friends. There had been a giant freshly dug hole, right,

in my backyard. A person could easily dig up right next to the tank, drop a body in, and no one would ever think to look. - Do you need, like, a toothbrush or something? - I don't know, I got the honey brought there.

- Do you need toothpaste? - No, no, yes, I will need toothpaste. - I'll lay somehow, great, yeah, okay, we're off to bed. Can I go? - Thank you, bye. - I couldn't sleep that night.

I was on Chris's couch, just staring at the ceiling, and sometime around 3 am, I checked my email. - Okay, I'm rolling, because I just opened up my computer and rinkin' or to go back to us. I actually think it might have been in this picture.

I want to go wake up Chris right now. This is insane. All right, rinkin' says, "Hi, Chris and writer, "quite a journey with the Motorola today. "Pouring it up with a bench supply was easier

"than I expected it to chirp to the old two kilohertz town. "Holly would fix that all the time, "so hearing it for real was pretty sweet. "I have no idea what it had in this means, okay? "The LCD was a nightmare, receding the zebra strip."

I think that's Chris upstairs. He must have seen the email. Okay, checked the hex, found some packed BCD, ran a little script to Jesus Christ and I'm okay. Dumping the E-Prom actually worked,

I recovered the last 12 numbers, see attached. It's a text file. Yes, yes, the 823, 829, those are definitely from Sebastian. I could have, let's see if I know it's okay.

“All right, yeah, I think Chris has got my town.”

(laughing) Okay, that's, I can see that's the Juniper Payphone number. And that's, it's actually, it's a mixed home phone number twice. This is Anna. And then there's the last four pages,

it's the same one, four in a row, it's not a phone number, it's code. 911. That was the standard code for this is an emergency, or at least this is important.

- 204, 204, the street address of the Tender Hearts property.

And 96, Chris, that's Chris's code.

We 911-204-96, four times. But that was, that's Chris, what was Chris doing? She's stupid. - Rider, Rider, Rider, Rider, Rider. - Seriously, look at Anna White.

- Nothing, it's just, don't worry about it, babe, just go back inside.

“If you want to go back inside, just go back on this.”

- I can freaking my life out, Rider. With a fuck are you, man? Rider can be please fucking talk. Can we, can we please just fucking talk, talk to me? Come on, man.

If you want to ask me something, you want to accuse me of something. Come on out, man up for once in your life, be a man and talk to me, face to face. Come out, come on, come on, you got an email? Rider! - Hey, can I tell you a story?

'Cause it involved Johnny Applefield. - It was three months since I managed to get away from Chris's house that night. I was doing a follow-up interview with Maldonato, and he said he wanted to make me feel better.

“I assumed he meant feel better about the fact”

that I never suspected my best friend was a murderer.

- My old man, my dad, he diagnosed 15. And I was, I was 16, 17, my mom sort of dating his guy, Louise. She and Louise ended up getting married, he moved in and I moved out. And I was a paint house, there's more mainly down in Marin, and I didn't get back home that much.

But every month there's so many moms at the doctor or in the hospital, something's broken. Oh, my mom twisted her ankle again. - Something like this, shit, yeah. - Yeah, well, yeah, but I was busy, you know?

19 years, all about me, was making good dough, paint houses. But then finally, finally it happens. I get that call that my mom's in the hospital again. Except this time it's serious. And this time, well, this time it's undeniable.

They got Louise was scratching his shoulders, they scraped up knuckles, and that bastard tried to run. So he was here in the middle of the whole time, the whole time from day one. Because she, okay, I mean, until she, yeah, she was fine.

She came through, Louise got two years. That's it? - Yeah, well, it was, it was eight years, man, we'd expect. But that day when I came back to find my mom and hospital like that, knowing that this guy had done that,

had been doing that, kept doing that. Well, that's the day that I quit painting houses and I enrolled in a police academy. I was trying to figure out where this was going. How this could possibly make me feel better.

- Ah, so, you became a cop because Louise was there. In your life, you're on stepdad and you had no idea. - Of course not, the exact opposite.

I became a cop because I always knew

that some of a bitch was coming. I told my mom every chance I got. (crickets chirping) Well, it's right, I got the nose, man, the radar.

“You see, I think the worst of every person, every time.”

You know, the old saying about a soon? You mean, if you were soon to make an ass every year, when an ass of me, nope, it's going soon. Makes an ass in a few and a cop out of me. (crickets chirping)

(crickets chirping) Yeah, it's a curse, right here. So, just be glad you don't have it. Oh, and hey, don't quit your day job. 18 days ago, Crystal Veccio was charged

with the murder of Anna Trainer. He's awaiting trial without bail. Anna's body was found in the backyard of my childhood home, 20 feet from my bedroom window. It was a sloped grassy hill my brother and I used to roll down

as kids, play laser tag on. Once we set up a projector screen there, and I watched Coco with my son, no clue what was right below the grass.

but telling.

“- You want to go with details, don't you?”

- The Sheriff's Office liaison Thomas Greer, filled me in. - No, no, I'm, you know, I'm just hoping that if I could interview somebody. - Oh, my, you're a showbiz guy, you play cool, but you're a song and danceman in minute.

- Fine. (laughing) - Midditch, so you'll let me talk to the forensic pathologist. - Oh, hell no. This case is ongoing, but I'll get you a summary of findings.

- It still blows my mind. - We had all lied to the cops about where we were in order to protect Willow,

so it never occurred to us that Chris might have been

lying to us, too. - He was definitely at my house in the morning. He was there. - Here's what Connor, Orion and I have been able to piece together. After the fire started, we ran, we'd scattered.

Orion and I eventually found Connor on the road, and later Willow caught up with us. But even then, we split up throughout the night to hide from the cars, the fire trucks, sometimes in pairs, sometimes alone.

“And when we thought back, we all assumed that Chris was with us.”

Had been with one of us at any given point, but he wasn't. He wasn't there for sure until sunrise at Connor's house when we made the pinkies wear. Which leaves Chris unaccounted for, from 10 p.m. until almost 7 a.m.

And in the days that followed, like me, Chris was question twice by the cops, like me, he lied. Other than those meetings, there's no official record of his wearabouts. Plenty of time to move Anna's car, catch a bus home,

even join the search party. - Okay, do you mind reading it? - Oh, you're the actor, don't worry. - Well, I don't need you to act, just read. - Oh, okay, pressure's on.

All right, all right, skeletal remains were exhumed from approximately 60 to 70 inches below grade. Associated artifacts included, degraded denim fabric, pants, shoe fragments, and metallic jewelry.

Now, my mouth is dry. - No, you're doing great, sounds good. - Hey, how many times did you say Andy Moore to my boy meets world, huh? (laughing)

- Okay. - Well, now you know how actors on CSI feel. - Craneal trauma, left parietal bone, exhibits at a press fracture, measuring approximately 4.1 centimeters in diameter.

- In other words, Anna was struck in the head, but that didn't kill her. - Right, fourth and fifth ribs, both display complete perforation by a projectile. - The bullet killed her.

- Now, to be clear, everything up until this is the extent of public information. The district attorney isn't really more about their case, so let me state because my lawyers have insisted

that I say this, anything more is speculation. My speculation.

But here's what I think happened the night.

- That's why I took him out and said, "Kid went down hard." - He took him out and he wasn't getting back up. - Okay. - Chris is hurt by Mick, physically, of course.

But when Mick knocks him down, something snaps. Years of being picked on rage, humiliation. - He is the message of actually a constantly. - Really? - Oh, dude, he losses shit.

- But it's not just that. It's who this is. - Mick, Anna's ex-boyfriend, maybe still her boyfriend, knocking him down.

“That's the worst thing in the world of Chris,”

because he's in love with Anna. He is, by then, in a relationship with her. - I think you just, like, needed to be true really. You like me, and then I like you, but it's not okay.

It's like, isn't okay versus I, it's what I'm saying. - When I heard about an age difference on the mix, my imagination only went in one direction. Older.

I never thought it might mean younger.

Chris began as Anna stalker. The son of a bitch, who, according to Laney, wore her down and became her secret, inappropriate boyfriend. - She was old and she was a cool person.

- You were in love with her. - We all had a massive crush on her. - No, it was not alone. - I barely even talked to her, but whatever. I was a member of anything with a pulse and boo.

Chris was a scrawny 15-year-old, one of her sister's weirdo friends. The guy dressed as Phantom of the Coffee Shoppera. The guy everyone still called fancy pants to watch him wig out.

She also, obviously, must have liked him. A lot. But I can imagine she was torn. She made tapes, he gave her books, they had fantasies of running off, like Bonnie and Clyde.

But did she take it seriously? I don't know. But I think Chris did. And that night, he tried to confront Mick. It's actually possible, likely.

He orchestrated the whole plan, our Tom Shannigan's, as a way to confront Mick.

What we needed to hear to get us out there.

- Yeah, and Chris and I were on the road too. - Oh, really? You guys, I thought you guys were still in the woods. - No, we met back up with you guys, walked back, and we watched sunrise and corners.

- We did. Chris brings a baseball bat, and then after Mick knocks him down, he goes and gets a gun. I don't think to kill Mick, but to scare him. But by the time he gets back, Mick and Travis are gone.

He finds Willow in the barn, and then the fire starts. Chris runs to my parents house. He pages Anna. He's thinking Operation Van Gogh, it's time. Anna meets him at the driveway, but something goes wrong.

- The wounds describe an escalation.

“- So what does it say is the official cause of that?”

- It's a two-for combined blend-forced cranial trauma

and gunshot went to the chest. - Anna won't go. They argue, they fight against physical. He hits her, maybe intentionally with the butt of the rifle, maybe she falls, either way.

Now she's hurt, bleeding, Anna runs. Chris Panics, chases her. He shoots four times, at least, the three rounds that hit the tree, and the shot to the chest, the kills Anna trainer.

- No way, I just want to be sure the way she was shot, where the bullet went in, she was definitely shot from the front. - Yeah, see, you know your audience. - This is a gory detail I do when I consider,

because it makes what Chris did more intentional, more brutal. It means Anna wasn't running. She had fallen or stopped and turned around. Maybe she was on her back, maybe sitting, hands in the air,

maybe she was pleaning. No matter what, she was facing Chris when he shot her. No matter what, he was looking right out her when he pulled the trigger.

“- I mean, he didn't see nervous or honestly even concerned.”

- Chris's arrangement was a few days ago. Monica was there. - Was he wearing an orange jumpsuit? - Yeah. - Oh wait, I was joking.

Was the joke? - I don't know, maybe not a joke, not a joke. I guess it's just a, it's bizarre, the reality that this is actually happening. I've got a Chris's, you know.

- I mean, there were 32 arrangement hearings in the morning session alone. - Right, right. - So 32 jumpsuits. - Your friend is charged with murder,

so as a bizarre that he looks like the other defendants. - Yeah.

Do you remember when we first talked?

- Yeah, back in '95? - No, I'm talking about the, when we first did our Zoom for this. And you said that you would see me when I was doing the graduate and my twenties. And I said, yeah, and remember you?

- Right, yeah. - Yeah, that was true. I saw you that night, right when I walked in. It was that party at the hotel lobby, right near the current, the warwick.

- Yeah, I avoided you all night. I was totally terrified.

“I kept thinking that you were gonna remember me.”

- Well, I did, right, of course, that's it. I was scared, but if I talked to you, I was gonna crack and just tell you the truth about the fire. You know, just that I had lied to you, back when I was a kid, because I remembered talking to you when I was 15

and lying to you and just held hard that was. So it was so awful to see you now. In my twenties, I just avoided you. I mean, I was like, I even left the party early. - Now talking to anyone else,

I might have been more direct. I might have just come out and said something like, "You're a good journalist, Monica, "but something told me I didn't have to." - Well, thank you, thanks.

- Well, thank you for everything, and keep in touch. - Well, dear. - You might wonder why I wasn't at the arrangement myself, and maybe I should have been, but I'm in Boca's del Toro, Panama,

where Willow wrote the letter that started all of it. - That's how the beach is going to be. Clear it all, hear me, my Sandy, oh, I don't think we'll go back home. - How do we get back?

We don't need to go all the way to the beach at night. - I'm not sure exactly why I came here, except, I guess I wanted the place to be real, to be honest, I hate the beach, but I brought my family, and we've had a good time.

for every reason she might thank me,

there's a reason to condemn me.

“Lying back in 1995, keeping Anna's murderer close,”

while pushing Willow away, I may have eventually helped to solve the case, but for 30 years, I neglected, and for two months, running around with a microphone, I misdirected, I complicated everything.

- I also haven't heard back from Fiona, Chris's wife, she's refused to speak to press, according to Public Records, she's filed for divorce, but then she appeared in court at his arrangement, which means, I guess, that she has complicated feelings.

I have complicated feelings. Of course, there's this righteous, vengeful part of me that is just so angry, that hopes he suffers, can't wait to see him locked up for the rest of his life.

Then, there's another part of me, maybe I shouldn't admit to, that's just sad. I still can't believe he could do this, did do this, and the weirdest part is, I catch myself wanting to share that disbelief with my best friend,

which means almost every day, I wanna talk about how crazy it is that Chris did this with Chris. (gentle music) Looking back, it's obvious that Chris joined me in the podcast in order to throw me off,

insisting that talking to the cops was a bad idea throwing away the pager. For all I know, he paid sparks to feed me conspiracy theories and then banish, because Monica and more importantly,

the district attorney never found evidence

about campaign contributions. I was blind in so many ways. Maybe I should have always seen the signs, but it's hard when the memories are actually good.

“Like, I remember sitting in a restaurant with Chris”

when he just grabbed the check and ran. When we were 12, Chris talked our way into an r-rated movie, demanding to see the manager and then cracking the guy up so much that he just had the letters in.

I remember afternoons wandering six flags, so scared to talk to girls, but Chris would talk to anyone. So by the time our moms picked us up, we'd have phone numbers and pen bells. There's this thing that guys used to say,

"Not anymore, not in my circles, at least." Bros before hose, and I know that's cringe these days, like Maldonato using the old F word, and rightfully so.

But it's also true that in 1995, I might have flinched at those words, but not at the sentiment. I was a love-sick teenager.

Always heartbroken, always wanting a relationship,

or a morning one. Having a friend, a guy who was there for you, was kind of a matter of survival. He'd tell you, "It's okay, you don't fit in. "It's okay, you can't play sports

"or that people treat you differently "because you're an actor on a kid's show. "A friend who tell you, "she's psycho, "you're better off without her, "or even just chicks, man."

That was a friend that I thought I needed. Sometimes, I'm sure, I was that friend for someone else.

“Even now, when I think about Willow in 1998,”

I can see she was honoring a bro code by not telling me that Chris was Mr. Wrong, the one who got a pregnant. She was protecting my friendship with Chris. Protecting me, knowing that I was in love with her,

that I would hurt me to find out that the two of them were seeing each other behind my back. I called this show the red weather because I thought there was something reckless and potentially damaging in the non-conformity of my parents' generation.

How, like the drunk and sailor with a dream, they broke from consensus. Ran off into the woods, walked around naked, worshiped trees, did drugs, but now I think they didn't go far enough. Because for all the unique parts of my town, my friends,

in the end, Anna's murder was a pretty predictable story. There's a tendency to look back at history and think we get smarter, more sophisticated, that people used to be goalable, naive products of their time. Starting commons, using lead gasoline,

or believing slavery was tenable. And we liked to think of ourselves as past that. We've gotten better. We see more clearly now. We've somehow escaped the bubble.

But I didn't even know my own friends,

I mean Anna and Willow. It pains me to think how they have figured in this podcast, at various times, victim, muse, enigma, prop. Even with the best intentions, I built stories around them, the clipsing them.

It's not really that different from the way Chris once had a fantasy of hopping in a car with the girl of his dreams. She would fix it, she would make it better.

“Which is why I think I wanted to come to Panama.”

So this place wasn't some abstract thing in my head, not an idea who's meaning only grows in relationship to my life to stories that I tell myself. But real sand, real water, working a little here too,

finishing up that script finally.

Alex's glad I'm back to fiction to made up monsters. We were walking on the road last night, along the main drag here, and I saw something of bakery that Willow had mentioned in her letter. She had this crazy story about an argument

that she got into with this ex-pad who was trying to bring cronuts to book is Del Toro. I started recording up a waste memo on my phone because I realized it could make a great ending to this podcast.

It would book end these episodes with Willow's letter

“and it would offer the opposite from where I started,”

something funny, lighthearted from her life.

But then I thought about how Willow wrote a letter to me,

labeled it, stamped it, sealed it. And I showed my phone over. (dramatic music) (dramatic music) , (dramatic music)

(dramatic music) The red weather was written and directed by writer Strah, sound engineering, editing, and mixing by boat milky's, produced by test-breath all the new, executive producers of I Heart Radio, Trevor Young,

and Matt Frederick, associate producer Bo Milky's. Original score composed and performed by Kyle Warden, and featuring the sound of the body mix by Kyle and Ben Warden.

The red weather stars me, writer Strah,

“with Alexander Buretto, and Indy, King, Lynn,”

and Shiloh Strong as themselves. Chris Wilde was Crystal Betchio. Lynnysa Frederick was Monica Tremblane. John Wertis was Sheriff Maldonado. Rachel Marsh was Anna Trainer.

Heidi Solzman was Laney Trainer. Chris Lemke was El Rick Light. Kelly Lou Dennis was Sheriff Grace Lockler. Travis Schulte was Thomas Greer. Leith Gantford was Mick Boden.

Alvesente was Andres. Adam Stillwell was Sparks. Adam Bush was Howard Tripp. Lindsay Phoenix was Julie. Test Bartholomew was Fiona.

And Logan Bartholomew was Yuri Donanfield. Ashley Plats was the pine cone waitress. Henry Dipman was the news announcer. Sarah McElegitt was the news anchor. Thelma Sue Guy was the protest news anchor.

Zane Rubin was front desk woman. Jessica Devonville was front desk attendant. Sheila Junizim was Locklin's assistant. And Eric Luminarius was the bodyguard and cat the police officer.

Special thanks to Ocean Green, Sean Fox, Nathan Sackett, Aaron Grail. Toby Lawless, Amy Schurberman, Danielle Fisher, Chris Levidus, Joshua Melkin, Paul Gandersman, John Flynn York, Todd Goldberg, and Elaine and Andrew of Kathy 86 and Eagle Rock.

And a very special thanks to all my friends and family who lent their time, their voices, and their stories. Thank you for listening. We hope you enjoyed the show. [MUSIC PLAYING]

In the middle of the night, Saskia woke in a haze. Her husband Mike was on his laptop. What was on his screen would change Saskia's life forever. I said I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing. And immediately, the mask came off.

That's your home. That's your husband.

“Listen to betrayal season 5 on the I-Heart Radio app,”

Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Nancy Glass, host of the burden of guilt season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpride became the victim of a random crime.

The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years

until a confession changed everything.

I was a monster.

“Listen to burden of guilt season 2 on the I-Heart Radio app,”

Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome check this. I-Heart and TikTok have come together to create something new. I love it.

We're the world of TikTok meets your playlist.

Three words that will change your life. I-Heart TikTok Radio. The biggest hits across I-Heart Radio. What's trending for you on TikTok?

“Tell me a sound that's better than this.”

I-Heart TikTok Radio. It's plus TikTok's most influential creators all in one place. Search for I-Heart TikTok Radio. Make it a present and stay connected all day. Everyone needs to take care of their mental health,

even running back to be John Robinson. When I'm on the field that feeling the pressure usually just take a deep breath. When I was breathing and seeing what's in front of me, everything just slows down.

It just makes you feel great before I run the play. Just like be John, we all need a strong mental game on and off the field. Make a game plan for your mental health. I love your mind, playbook, back or work.

Love your body. brought to you by the Huntsman Mental Health Foundation, the Arthur M. Blink Family Foundation and the ad council.