Are Trump Voters Feeling Buyer's Remorse? (With Sarah Longwell)

starts with a choppy fry.

I want to show you the first day of choppy fry.

And the dish will make me no problem. I have many problems but the dish is not a step away. I have the feeling that choppy fry will continue to be optimized. Everything is super simple, integrated and balanced. And the time and the money that I can't do with it can be invested in other ways.

For everything in vacuum. Now the cost of the test is on choppy fry.de. [Music] Welcome to Potsay of America. My guest today is an old friend of mine.

She actually stole my car literally 25 years ago. She gave it back. It's fine. She's outcast in it. Long story.

But today, Sarah Long was left a life of crime behind her to become the publisher of the bull work. You can find her on excellent podcasts like the next level.

The focus group Sarah is great to see you.

Thanks man. It's great to see you. You are in my office just so people know. It's very nice. It's a very professional, very nice office here in DC.

And I'm so grateful to be here because I wanted to take stock of this political moment. We're like six months out from the midterms. We're all letting ourselves get excited. But you do more focus groups with voters than anyone I know, like several a week. Yes.

And I want to ask you about those conversations because we're all sickos who, you know, Hoover up the latest polls. But I think you can really learn interesting insights by listing the voters. What a crazy concept. It's almost like they're the people who comprise this democracy of ours.

It's almost like they make decisions. And by the way, if listeners are as obsessed with this stuff as we are and they want to

“learn more, you should right now pass the podcast and pre-order Sarah's book.”

How do you know if in one voter at a time you'll learn about Sarah's life or time and politics, the insight she's gleaned from literally thousands of hours, a focus group conversation with voters. And also, if you pre-order it now, what that means is when the New York Times best cello list comes out, she will be on it.

And like Don Jr's triggered to or whatever bullshit book is getting bulk ordered by the RNC will get bounced. Right. So I think this is important. It is important to me that no super PAC is buying this book to get it on the list.

That it is made up of real people in large part because I want people to hear and sometimes people are like, oh my god, do I have to listen to voters? I'm like, yes. Yes. What was you doing?

Javi Allen pressure. I was doing a Javi Allen pressure. Yeah. Sarah in the bullwork team. They're independent, pro-democracy, media, so are we at cricket media?

Check out everything the bullwork is doing. Go to Substack.

They have amazing podcasts.

They do written content. You should be a subscriber. I've been a subscriber for a long time. It's a good place of you. I mean, it's great stuff.

And by the way, please follow Potset America here in YouTube and consider becoming a subscriber to what we're doing here. Go to cricket.com/friends because the Sarah knows.

“Subscribing is like literally the best thing you can do for independent media advertising is great,”

but it is not enough. But if you subscribe, you get ad free episodes, get bonus episodes, Potset America, deep dives into polling with Dan Fight for so it's a good deal. Cricket.com/friends. Okay.

Sarah, let's start with what you're hearing about Donald Trump himself. On the Focus Group pod, you guys recently talked about, it was like Catholic Trump in Harris voters. You talked about. It was Trump voters who were angry at him.

There was an interesting Iran war pod, tons of great episodes people should check out. But what are the big themes and problems in concerns that can have keep arising? Yeah, okay. So the easy one is, so we asked the same question at the beginning of every group.

How do you think things are going in the country? There is only one answer to that question that we are hearing right now. Great. Thank you so much. It is bad.

Nobody thinks things are good, including some of the people who still support Trump. They don't think things are going well. People who are still writing with Trump just tend to have hope that maybe they will start going well at some point because you got to trust the plan, you trust the plan, we might get there.

But the big thing is just costs, right?

“Everybody talks about, how do you think things are going in culture?”

People say bad, gas prices are high. We're suddenly in a war with Iran. I wanted Trump to deport criminals, but he's doing all this other stuff. And it's this pervasive feeling. In fact, we just did a focus group.

And I really liked this group. It was people who are still a perverse of Trump. People who are still rocking with him that 32% I've caught my bush line, right? But people who are, let's call it blow the bush line, people who are like, I'm still in it with Trump.

And the president managed to get that by you without you giggling. I did smile. Do you know that I coined that phrase entirely innocently and only until I said it to Tim Miller? And the reason I'm laughing is because I was texting with Tim about this today.

And I asked him for op-o about you, and he responded the bush line.

Well, they bastardize things that I know purely.

You're so innocent. So, but the people who are still writing with Trump who think things are going great, even they think that the state of the country, like the way that we relate to each other, is awful. Like they feel like the country is a powder keg.

They feel like we're too divided. They're scared about civil war. And so there's this deep, pervading sense or pervasive sense of unease. But the prices are the things you hear because when prices are high, people's anxiety is high.

And they've been high kind of now for a long time. And so people are starting to crack and I got to tell you a year ago what we would hear from these voters is, okay, like Trump is going to fix it.

“And like, Rome wasn't built in a day, but I think he's going to get there.”

And like every week, you just see the sort of the sliding off of the optimism from Trump voters that say, I think things are going to get better. Like they just see things getting worse. It drives with that I've heard from others, like folks probably heard of swing left. They are a great grassroots organization.

They're doing this big, canvassing project called Ground Truth. Where they don't do like a walk list. It's not like the Democratic Party saying, like, hey, knock on these Democratic doors. They're talking knocking on every door, and they're trying to have longer conversations. And, you know, issues rise and fall, right?

Like the Iran War happens and all of a sudden that spikes in what they're hearing. But the number one issue, like lingering pervasive issue, is about the integrity of the political system itself. It's about trust in that ranges from corruption. It's people feeling like politicians lie in their self-dealing.

It's that the system is corrupted or captured by corporate interests. And it's just, you know, it's interesting that they're hearing that. You're hearing the same thing. Like that is like the mood music. Yeah.

And I think like to the extent that we now take our signals are also bifurcated in everywhere, but they all come together in this thing that we now call vibes. And one of the things I talk about in the book is the rise of the vibes voter. And like the vibes are bad and Trump's vibes are bad. And the, you know, it's funny that the way you just said it, which is around corruption

and things, a lot of the things about doing the focus groups is you get a lot of specifics into that. What are people angry about? Well, they're angry that Trump lied and said we weren't going to get into these stupid wars and now we're with Iran, they're upset about Epstein, Epstein comes up a lot.

I think a lot of people thought, like, this isn't a real story. This isn't actually going to matter, but for a lot of the voters, Epstein isn't just about Epstein, it's about the idea that Trump was supposed to be somebody who was going to be transparent, right? And then he was going to put people in this cabinet.

There's a secret cabal running everything, but we're going to tell you the truth. We are on your side.

And there's a sense of betrayal around that, which is why I always think about the people

who are still part of the people who approve of Trump for them, what they have is like, they're keeping the faith in Trump that it's going to come, but they're clear that it hasn't come yet and we're not getting it right now. Interesting. So we both are in the media world now, but at heart, we're political hacks who, especially focus on messaging and how to go after Trump.

The messaging that resonates with me by my bias, my prior is around corruption.

“Because I think the corruption bucket gives you the why, right?”

It's like it explains why Trump is pushing that tax policy, because his donors want them bad foreign policy, crypto, like, you can apply to everything. And I think Senator John Oshoff has been messaging this, and I think a really effective interesting way will drop in a clip here. How much do you guys know about Jared Kushner?

Ivanka's husband, he's on the Saudi payroll for $2 billion. And now he's leading American diplomacy in the Middle East, apparently while at the very same time asking princes and shakes across the Arab world to give him billions more. Can you imagine, like, a normal, sitting U.S. ambassador just hitting up Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman for billions of dollars?

The rules are for us, not for them. And it's not just Jared getting in on the action. A company owned in part by Eric and Don Jr. has been pitching golf kingdoms on its drone interceptors during this war.

Never before have we seen so little effort to hide so much corruption?

Do you think this is effective messaging? What else are you saying? Is this kind of thing like popping in groups?

“Yeah, it's, and here's the thing about corruption.”

Okay, so I'm going to put a different frame on it, which is, like I said, people are focused on prices, they're focused on affordability, but you can make everything an economic issue. Corruption, especially can be an economic issue, right? It's about a total story you're telling and he's saying, he's getting rich while you're getting poor.

Everything has to have the contrast to it. You know, I don't have where I'm talking to people, I'm like, "Him bad. You good." Like, like, let's get like some real basics, right? Trump bad.

Republicans bad. Democrats. Yeah, it's right. He break, we fix. Yes, yes.

It's like, get the contrast in there. I am mind-relead developing an obsession with John Olsaf, entirely based on tight shirts and good messaging. Yeah, we're just funny, because that's not for me, exactly. But it is, it's for me either, but I'm not to see it, yeah.

But man, the calm stuff just has me swooning. Yes.

“The demeanor, the vibes, the vibes, what are you doing?”

So there's a couple of things he's doing. One is cadence, where he's holding an audience in his hand, and that's the stuff you can't teach. Some of it is that the handsomeness of it all, like the optics of feeling like, oh, oh, you look like a person I could see being president.

He's got nice young man energy, similar to Obama, and some other people who judge has some of that nice young man energy, which I think works with a lot of the moms.

I think, you know, there's always a soccer mom or a security mom or whatever, let's just

have the nice young man moms that could be coming out for Democrats this time. The thing about Osof is that he is a natural contrast storyteller. He is saying, and a lot of people get, they worry, we'll look if I, if I start talking about corruption, and people are going to get bored, or they don't understand the ins and outs, he trusts people to understand where he's going with it.

And he says, have you heard? Did you know? Did you see this? Yes. You're to give you this information if you haven't been getting it in your bubble.

It's so good. It's like it's so simple. It's like an old Leno bit. Yes. Like, do you hear about this one?

You read this one?

“Finding him from an optics cadence and message discipline standpoint to be doing the thing”

that I've been feeling pretty desperate for politicians to do, which is find a way to

rhetorically get your arms around the chaos. And people get distracted. It feels like it's so much, and the voter's feel like it's too much. But he's like, no, I'm going to focus your attention on these things. And they provide the contrast, not just him versus Trump, but the way in which he's approaching

issues versus the corruption of Trump and corruption, Trump's getting richer, you're getting poor. That's the contrast. Yeah. Maria Barteroma, saying congrats, Don and Eric on your drone contract from the Pentagon

or whatever. I don't know what if you know this, but Tundra Biden had a painting. Yeah, right. Yeah. Had a kind of charisma.

I want to talk about how Democrats should chip away at this Trump coalition from 2024

and kind of build their own big, motley anti-Trump coalition. You and your co-hosts on the next level had a spirited debate about Tucker Carlson and his turn from Trump and denunciation of Trump, let's listen to Tucker talking about that. You and I and everyone else who supported him, he wrote speeches for him, I can't paint for him.

I mean, we're implicated in this for sure. Yes. It's not enough to say, well, I changed my mind or like, oh, this is bad, I'm out. It's like in very small ways, but in real ways, you and me and millions of people like us for the reason this is happening right now.

Yes. So I do think it's like a moment to wrestle with our own consciences, you know, we'll be tormented by it for a long time. I will be and I want to say I'm sorry for misleading people in it was not intentional. That's all I'll say.

You and JBL, and Tim, you know, I think you guys had to different takes on how to respond to Tucker or what you made of Tucker, I'll let you talk about that. But I think I sort of landed in a middle ground listening to you guys like, yes, you know, Tucker is someone, I think we should be skeptical of because he's sort of in the media political business.

It was noable and there's evidence that he did know that Trump was a charlotte in, but I do think he was sincerely disappointed in an angry that Trump went full neocon and like invaded Venezuela and now is a war with Iran, a lot of it is undergirded by this anchor at the Israeli government and BBN and Yahoo that can be around anti-Semitism and we've to watch that.

But I'm curious, like, how do you think Democrats use these comments, because it's him, it's Alex Jones, it's Candice Owens, not like lib fan favorites usually, but saying things that are potentially helpful to us? Yeah, I mean, this, I think this ends up being like kind of weirdly an academic debate as opposed to a practical one, because as a practical matter, use the shit out of all of

it, right? Like amplify the fractures in their coalition, like again, just with the framework of him go they bad, like you want them to fall apart and want to hold your side together.

“Like, and I think that though, people get wrapped up a little bit in whether you have to sort”

of welcome people into the tent. This is a phrase, are people decide who's in the coalition and who's out of the coalition? Is there a gate somewhere? Well, there's, this has been a big, big conversation lately, right? I mean, I know you guys have also talked about his son, Piker, who's a more leftist,

twitch streamer, who's said some offensive things about Israel or a bunch of other topics. And that's been part of this question, too, and like, I don't know, how do you think

How do you, how do we define whether there are gates?

“Yeah, I mean, I think, look, there's sort of like, is something somebody says bad objectively,”

right? I think Tucker Carlson is a malign actor. I think he is a liar. I think the reason that he is decided to take on Trump on this issue isn't because he's got super sincerely held beliefs or maybe he does as part of his world view, but also he was

specifically brought into the White House multiple times. I think tried to talk Trump out of Iran, Trump went against him. Now, Tucker's going against him. They're all falling apart, but like, Tucker is not a good person in my opinion. Like, I think he has been a malign actor on our politics, and I think he does overall more

damage. That doesn't mean that Tucker Carlson doesn't have an audience and doesn't play a role in helping to sort of fracture that coalition. And so sometimes amplifying his disagreements, he is a particular kind of messenger for people.

But that's like a utility, it's not, hey, let's have them in the coalition. And because there is no, because they're not part of the, they don't want to be part of the coalition.

“But also because there is no gatekeeping around the coalition, right?”

Like, there's nobody who decides, I mean, the DNC can decide who speaks at a, who gets a platform. But like, and that was sort of, you know, my argument with Tim around Piker was, I felt like, Tim and Tim knows this, so I don't want to like speak out of school because he's not here to the phones about, but I felt like he was kind of downplaying some of the toxicity

of the things that Piker was saying. And more than that, I just cared about on our platform, I didn't want it to sound like we didn't have a clear sense of who this guy is and what he is saying and what he talks about. But like, if that guy says, I like John Ossoff because I agree with his views on this,

well, I'm like, okay, that's, and so I just, and this idea of people being gatekeepers on this stuff. But I do think we should all as moral actors, be gatekeepers about what is right and what is wrong. And so for me, if my lines are liberal versus illiberal, then when people are using violent

rhetoric, if they side with terrorists or want to, you know, pump up terrorists or celebrate them in ways or the Chinese Communist government or Putin's annexation of Crimea, you

“know, or that, you know, 9/11 happening was a, what was it?”

America deserved 9/11 and be like, these are out of context and then I go and watch the context and I'm like, they're not out of context, you just, you have an explanation for why you think these things to be true. Okay. Well, that's an academic debate or an intellectual debate and we can have that debate.

I'm just telling you, I think those things are wrong and I think is a moral line. I think that they're not good, but that doesn't mean, but the idea that like hotcasters can't talk to each other or people can't debate ideas, like, that's a deep platforming. Because that was very like 2018 through 2020, right? It's like, all the scolding of people when on Joe Rogan or like scolding of barstil sports

or things like that. But people can fleet the idea of saying, I think that person's ideas are bad or I, I object to what that person's saying, like, I don't think stealing stuff from stores is an act of righteous courage against corporations.

Like, I think that is, I think that's basically you've decided, okay, well, we're just

going to opt out of having a society who has, and to me, those are illiberal things. And I'm trying to, part of the reason I objected to Donald Trump was the illiberalism of Donald Trump, the violent rhetoric of Donald Trump. Now, some players like a streamer who, most of them at the country, doesn't know about. Well, yeah, it was not president.

Maybe Trump's president. Maybe Trump's president. Today's show is sponsored by strawberry.me. You don't have to be actively unhappy at work to want something more, John. The most successful people know this, and they didn't figure out a loan.

They have mentors, coaches, and people guiding them every step of the way. That's where strawberry.me, career coaching comes in. Career coaching through strawberry.me can help you get unstuck, uncover what you really want. Identify obstacles holding you back, develop a step by step plan, turn your goals into reality.

Boy, we nice to have a career coach, wouldn't it? Yeah, it would. Have you heard of the region beta paradox?

No, this is idea that, like, basically, you know, people will stay in a bad relationship

or they'll stay in like a mediocre job, and ironically, things would have to get worse for them to go seek something better, and so you live in this space where actually, like, if your life got worse, you would make it better, but because you don't, you live in this little area of the chart where like, seems like that's the space where you get strawberry dot me.

Yeah, you need some coaching. Because you don't want to fall to that lower space. Well, the region beta paradox, there you go, and so strawberry dot me get you out of there and get you to that next level to make you feel better about your job, your life, and you can improve.

Go to strawberry dot me slash cricket and find out if career coaching is right for you

Pods of America brought you by Haya. Some children's vitamins on the market today contain up to seven grams of sugar preserving and are stuffed with artificial additives and petroleum-based guys. Haya took the opposite approach, zero sugar, zero gummy additives, just clean nutrition, and these other people are like, "We can't make the vitamins without the Iranian oil."

[laughter] Not Haya. Design for kids doing up. Ships straight your door. You get an awesome reusable bottle with your first order, and then they send refills

every month, one last thing to remember at the store. Haya worked with pediatricians to create a powerful, chewable vitamin.

The packs of blend of 12 organic fruits and vegetables plus 15 essential vitamins and minerals

into every dose. Haya, John, you have children. Yeah. That was Haya. And we started giving away to everyone who was like two, I mean, like, "Oh, he's never

going to have all his vitamins that he needs," and because he's only in spaghetti. And he liked Haya, it's delicious, it's not full of sugar, and gets them all the nutrients he needs. And here's something every parent needs to hear. If getting your kids to eat their vegetables feels like an impossible daily battle.

Haya's new kids daily greens plus superfoods is a total game changer. It's basically chocolate milk stuff with veggies, it's a greens powder designed specifically for kids that's packed with 55 plus whole food sourced ingredients. This mix, one scoop with milk or milk alternatives and watch them actually enjoy something that's secretly fueling their growing bodies.

We've worked out a special deal with Haya for their best-selling children's vitamin

and received 50% off your first order to claim this deal.

“You must go to HayaHelp.com/curca this deal is not available on their regular website.”

So go to H.I.Y.A.H.E.A.L.T.H. HayaHealth.com/curca and get your kids the full-body nourishment they need to grow into healthy adults. You may be like a less discussed, maybe more complicated, more interesting case is Marjorie Taylor Greene.

Okay. Who has voted in some bad ways, some said some noxious things, it's held some terrible views. I gotta say I listened to her, I've been listening to her pretty closely for the better part of a year, talk about her opposition to the war in Iran, some of the things she

said about the war in Venezuela, I think she's been saying about Gaza and it just strikes me as totally sincere. And now maybe it's all a political game that is setting up a run for the presidency in 2020, whatever we'll find out. But I was mentioning, I was talking to Elhan Omar a couple of weeks ago about this and

whether she had reached out to Marjorie Taylor Greene and it was interesting to hear like Elhan Omar who's taken more attacks, who's been treated more viciously by MTG and a lot of Republicans, showed such grace and was like, yeah, we should give her hug, welcome her to the coalition. I thought it was interesting to hear that from her that she was thinking like that.

“Yeah, and I think, look, I think grace is good.”

I also, and I think part of what's happening though is like they're finding common ground, right? Like they share their feelings about Israel, I think are like both sincerely held and are maybe closer to each other than Marjorie Taylor Greene's are too many in her own party. Right.

And that might be true of Elhan Omar and some of the members of her own party. And so if they can, they find that common ground. And so, but like that might not be true if they didn't have like an issue that was binding them together that they both care passionately about. And that is, I think that increased skepticism of Israel is totally warranted in this

moment. I think that increased skepticism of the American government is quite warranted in this moment. But like that wouldn't necessarily bind me together with somebody that wouldn't be like the glue that holds us together, but I think that we have, and have had now for a while,

a fracturing of the old way of politics orienting the parties. And so as these issues shift and there's these huge changes in the way people are thinking about different things. Israel being one of them, you're going to start to see sort of the strange bedfellas.

But politics is always like that, right?

Politics, fine, strange bedfellas. And I think that is fine. Again, this is where is it really welcoming somebody into a coalition? Because I think there's a difference. And this is when you say, I carry you like we're together in this.

And this is why the question of do politicians go on like these more really incendiary podcasts. People who are more for shock-jock politics. It's like, okay, you've got two, there's two sides of that coin. There's the side that's trying to reach audience.

“And so you need to go, every, do everything, everywhere, all it wants.”

You've got to be going, finding audience, going into uncomfortable places, having new conversations. Just so that the judgment to know that for some people, you will end up owning some of their baggage. And some of the worst things that they said, if you're not willing to press them on it, they're going to reach on it, right?

And so that is the thing with Marjorie Taylor Green is like, I think that she got into Congress

done and then that didn't happen. And now, maybe she's mad, she didn't have enough influence or whatever she's looking for influence in other ways.

“I just don't know that I think, I'm not going to be like, boy, I really want to run”

hang out with Marjorie Taylor Green. And Jay Bell does, I love to work out with her, maybe do a little CrossFit. It's just an interesting conversation to sort of like thinking about her Democrats, offer grace, whether the amount of whoops we make you jump through to kind of like get to be treated as sincere versus Trump who's like, oh, you like Trump?

Oh, you called me Hitler back in the day, your VP now, James Vance. You know what I mean? Oh, Bobby Kennedy, you, you like Trump now, you hate these vaccines, fucking. I hate vaccines to be like, come on in. But that's bad, right?

We think that's bad.

And we, we ultimately, we ultimately don't think it's good as an objective matter that

JD Vance specifically, who did say Trump was Hitler, then was like, please Mr. Trump, let me be all your things all for you. I just love you. I hope you're curable. So I will do what you need.

Yeah. That's a joke. But so I guess there's the part of me that is again, every successful political coalition that has ever existed has involved, like especially it really fractious times, has involved lots of strange bedfellows, has involved lots of weird coalitions.

So I think you want your coalition to be as big as possible. And I don't think we can, or like, we can't like police, whoever he talks to, like what you want out of your political leadership is you want somebody who's so good up here.

“This is why when I was objecting to as the idea that you have to go on someone's podcast”

to reach their audience. My point is a bigger point that's much beyond, like a particular person. It is John Ossoff is really good. He will make me and Hassan Piker be like, I support that guy, not because he comes to us to like reach our audience.

I think we've gotten a little to obsessed with the, these micro conversations around Joe Rogan of the left or podcasters in general, like actually, it's about the candidates, it's the candidates. The candidates show leadership and can we find ways to say, I can support that person and can they appeal to a really large coalition for a variety of reasons?

And you want it to be because they're leaning into the fit, like the good things, the things that we're like, yes, I find goodness in this person and a lot of people tag into them. Not, hey, I hate the same people you do. Right. Yes, for sure.

We want unifying messages, especially on our side. Let me just ask you a couple more things better, Ron, because I can imagine, like, I have doesn't ways that this is bad for Trump politically. There's gas prices are up. People are sick of wars in the Middle East generally.

The price tag of the word self is huge, like 30 billion, 40 billion dollars already has been burned. Then there's the fact that Trump lied and he said he would not go to war in the Middle East. What are you hearing, though, from voters who are expressing frustration about the war,

“especially that Trump supporters, you guys have a talk to who's spoken out?”

Yeah, I would say the main thing is people thought, and this was always my take on it

was Trump could get away with it if it was a really short period of time, because if it was kind of an in and out, like the first Iran bombing was-- It's 12-day war. It's like, yeah. The voters, by the time it's happened, it's like, it's already by it with the voters,

and they're back to caring, just about costs. The longer this goes on, you've got two things. You've got the impacts here at home, which is really around gas prices, but ultimately it's going to be all things, getting more expensive, which on top of the tariffs, and this is the thing about something like the Iran War, voters know what cost it, voters know

that tariffs cause the price increases, and they know that the Iran Iran is causing gas prices increases. When they know where it came from, that's the first bucket of the problem. Then you get to the second bucket of the problem, which is, you said no more of this stuff. You want to go in and do a smash and grab job, like Venezuela, or whatever, and I don't

have to feel it fine. You went up in a prolonged thing, we're now listening to you be like, hey, Vietnam was 18 years. What are you guys complaining about? We're crazy coming, by the way. Yeah.

And then they're like, wait a minute, because-- and this is where Trump is boxed in on this. And this is going back to Marjorie Taylor Greene and Tucker Carlson. The thing about them is that they are creating-- there's a fracture in their Republican

party right now, there's the America First Wing, which is, no, we're not going to do

worse because we're going to focus on people here at home. Then there's the maga establishment, and that is the Rubio, and that is Trump. And so America firsters are, like, you are not helping the American people. You are lying. You're not doing what you said.

And there is a real part of his coalition that feels betrayed because Trump-- and again, this is when I say everything is an economic issue. It's like, we hired you to do one thing, man. Maybe, too. Maybe we wanted you to also secure the border, but it was about prices, and you're not

And so literally everything you're doing that is not that makes us mad.

Yeah. You hear this from Nick. You hear this from Barry Bockel people. Nick Fuentes. Tucker Carlson, Mike and Kelly, can't have so many people.

Again, a lot of flawed messengers there, but they have audience. You mentioned Epstein a minute ago. So the Epstein files saga, it was long, but it feels like a lifetime ago at this point. But how much does the mishandling of Epstein kind of linger with voters who are angry with him and how is it manifest?

Yeah. So the main thing, again, is it goes to a lot of Trump's voters believed that the central promise of Trump, of Trump.

“So I think there's the people who-- these are the more casual voters who are just like Trump's”

a business guy. He's going to lower prices. But then there's the voters who really know Trump is going to smash the system. And all of the things you guys have been hiding from us, the deep state, talk a lot about this in the book, the grammar of hidden knowledge, the idea that there are big structural

forces, keeping information from regular people, and they meant to keep people down. Trump was going to disrupt all that. Right. When you don't get the Epstein files. And for whatever reason, it's funny.

If you go back, cash but tell promised to the Epstein files, bondy promise to the Epstein files. Yeah, Trump barely-- yeah, I'll look at that. Did he advance promise the Epstein files? This was not from one of the two.

It was not. And Trump is mad now. No, we know why. That he is at the center of it, but they feel like it disrupts the central promise of his, which is that I was going to be your guy who's going to show you everything and be transparent.

And so they just-- and baby, he's likely have started to be like, probably, yeah, he's in them, you know. And it, like, we know he's in them now. And so I do think there's the people who have either decided that matters to them because it is disrupted so much that this is cumulative.

It's not just the Epstein files. It's like, well, I didn't get the Epstein files, and I don't get lower prices. And people are basically like, I guess I get a secure border and like, bad stuff's happening to trans people.

“Like, that's the only thing he's made to my enemies.”

He's mean to my enemies. That is the only thing that they feel like is going right for Trump and the rest of it. They're not getting. And people are like, they'll kind of reach for the trans stuff as something that they're clad about, like, that's not driving their votes.

That's not the essential thing pushing most people.

I don't know. But yeah. The other interesting thing about Epstein that I was-- I think you guys talked about this on one of your focus group episodes was being into conspiracy theories used to be a thing that maybe people were embarrassed about.

Now they're like, oh, I'm a big conspiracy theory person. It's like, they're proud. And I don't know, maybe they all just feel vindicated by the Epstein thing because like, QAnon was just kind of aiming at the wrong target in hindsight. But it's interesting.

What did one guy say? He was like, how does a conspiracy theory go turn into a fact? And it's like, just give it time. Yes. But what is amazing is it used to hear people start their sentences with, I'm not a conspiracy

theorist, but, and you were always kind of like, oh, I'm waiting to hear the conspiracy. I'm landing time. But now they're like, I'm a big conspiracy theorist. I'll let me tell you what I think about, Erica Kirk's like, the body's buried in her basement. Right.

The Candace Owens of it all, the extent to which the conspiracy, I mean, used to be like, go to the grocery store and they'll be like, bad boy, kill seven or whatever stuff he was to see.

And America's always had a strain of, you know, there's a second one on the grass, whatever.

It's a bit, they like it. It's fun. Now, and the way that people own it now shows you, much people are leaning into this as a way of politics as entertainment, the characters that they watch. And this is something that the right does in some ways to its benefit and to its detriment,

which is that they are creating an ecosystem of like, maga soap opera stars, the people for like, anything. We'll sub her. Oh, I don't think God's for Wilkes, I wouldn't know what the hell is going on. Like, who's mad at who?

And who did what in the ballroom at TPS event anyway? Yeah. There's a lot of like minor celebrities that, I mean, Wil's summer's constantly saying, like, well, so-and-so, and I'm like, I'm sorry, who is that, who's like, you know, the girl who threw up in the plant at the Marlago, and I'm like, I don't know this story.

And so the conspiracy stuff is, and again, you hear it with people saying, well, I trust the plant. You know, whatever Trump's doing, I trust the plant. I mean, it's sort of like, it's, it's all the way from deep Q and on stuff that can be pernicious and kind of dangerous and lead somebody to show up at a pizza shop with a gun,

all the way over to Bravo does not have a new series now. So I'm like, really into what's happening with Erica. That's so true.

“And you have to think, I mean, like, I, having worked in government, I've just found that, like,”

big government conspiracies are unlikely because when you have a bunch of people right into something, the odds of a remaining a secret are very low and the government is tends to be incompetent at the end. Oh, I'm just going to say, like, you think the government can't figure out how to solve a bunch of these problems, but you think they've no had to cover up the plant.

I think that's exactly what they fake that stuff.

can feel chaotic and scary and why that things happen to good people, right?

Like, I was, because of that. This is why, you know, I tend to still be despite all of the, the chaos we see, really, like, fully pro American voter, because in some ways, they are being poisoned every day. And they're being lied to by their government every single day. I think that whether it's Epstein, whether it's the way that Trump has talked about war

“and Iran, like, we are both being lied to, and the only way we're getting information”

is on his, like, janky social media feed and, like, that's how things are coming. His privately owned, like, I, I have a hard time blaming the American people who for a long time are like, but, but he's the president. He certainly wouldn't lie about all of this stuff or, and I, I just, and they're trying to parse this new information, which is a nightmare, and there's conflict merchants everywhere

telling them who to hate and how to hate and, you know, gining people off. And so I just, I feel like, um, I feel like people, when I, that's why I like the focus groups, they're actually much nicer in person than actually the way and when people fight with you on the internet and they're just like screaming things that you, you know, people in the groups, they're really wrestling with stuff, they're just coming away with some

wild conclusions, um, but you can see how they get there if you listen to them based on the world that we live in. Totally. And the algorithms that they're getting forced into. Pots of America is brought to you by Helix, sleep is so important, so important.

It just doesn't study that if, um, you continually get, uh, six out less than six hours of sleep a night, and, uh, that happens for, um, continuously for, like, more than a week, then it is almost like you are, um, you have the same sort of mental decline as if you, uh, stayed up for 48 hours straight. Whew.

“That's how important it is to get seven hours at least seven hours of sleep as an adult,”

as an adult. Like, like, truly, like, no matter what you do, the last step is like, you can do everything right and you're not getting sleep. It's the hardest thing to do. It is.

Yep. You know what makes it easier. Helix. Helix mattresses. That's why we love Helix mattresses here.

We all have them in our homes. And, um, they're great. Helix makes buying a mattress easy. You take the Helix sleep quiz and it will match you with the perfect mattress based on your personal preferences and sleep needs.

You get free shipping and seamless delivery. Helix delivers your mattress right to your door with free shipping in the US. The happy with Helix guaranteed offers a risk free customer first experience designed to ensure

“you're completely satisfied with your new mattress.”

So you can rest easy with seamless returns and exchanges. Plus, Helix offers a hundred and twenty-nights sleep trial and limited lifetime warranty. So go check it out. Take the quiz.

Get your perfect Helix mattress and you'll, uh, you'll never have trouble sleeping again.

I haven't done enough. Spentastic. Love my Helix mattress. Go to HelixSleep.com/curricate for 20% off-site wide. That's HelixSleep.com/curricate for 20% off-site wide.

Make sure you enter our show name after check out. So they know we sent you HelixSleep.com/curricate. Pots, have America brought to you by fast growing trees. Let's be honest, you might be skeptical about ordering plants online. You're probably thinking, "Is this thing actually going to show up alive?"

But after receiving multiple plants from fast growing trees here at Cricket HQ, we can vouch for them. They have shipping plants down to a science. Fast growing trees has built a whole system to protect your plants until they arrive. Every plant is handpicked and carefully inspected. And their packaging is designed specifically to keep them secure and transit so they don't get damaged.

They have a lab, but they test the best packaging materials. Or you won't believe how good your plant looks. When it arrives, we go up as growing trees. Their plants are awesome. Pete, I hope it's on the box.

The plants we received at the Cricket I was. Green to them. Greed are over. The plants were very well secured in the box. They arrived looking healthy.

All of the soil remained in place. There was no mess once the boxes were open. The trees arrived a bit compressed, but a day after they unfolded to their full glory. They look like the plants you buy at your local nursery. Plus every order is backed by their alive and thrive.

We guarantee, in case you don't have any issues with delivery, you're covered. Fast growing trees is America's largest online nursery with thousands of plants and trees for your every yard and climate. They even make it easy to get plants that actually work for your yard delivered right to your door. Right now, they have a great deal on spring planting essentials.

And listeners get an additional 20% off on your first order.

But, quote, quote, get a check out that's 20% off at fast growing trees.com with code, Cricket. Terms and conditions may. Bye. The couple quick issue things. I'm just wondering if you're going about.

I'm like, I'm skeptical that amid terms going to be one on like policy per se. But there are some policy areas that are popping. First of all, there's AI. So there's some districts, political at a good rate up on this the other day where fights over AI data centers are really. They're big deals in certain communities that don't want them there or do you want them there.

And then there's also just sort of an anger from the left and the right at big tech at the tech oligarchs.

Right? And it's like verbatim the same language.

“How much are you hearing about AI big tech like in your groups?”

So tons of AI, not nearly enough about big tech. And let me, so I was actually when I was doing the focus groups specifically on the races for Mikey Schirol, Abigail Spamberger, and both those races, the AI data centers were huge issue. Came all the time because people know how much water they're using. Right.

They know that they're raising their energy prices again. It's an economic issue for them. They're like, they're like, hey, it's getting more expensive for me. And both of them made them parts of their campaigns like they were addressing it because clearly something they're hearing from voters all the time. And this is, but on the other thing on the tech oligarchs.

And this is I also talk about this in the book and they need you to do me a favor. And come in. Okay.

Go tell all your democratic friends that they keep doing this thing where they're like big corporations.

They're the bad guys. And like, can you guys just like, like, okay, I'm not here to talk you out of the industry? Could you please just really focus on the big tech oligarchs? Sure. Because they're both becoming outrageously wealthy at the expense of the health, both mental and physical of the American people.

They are taking two of our dominant human emotions fear and anger. And they are algorithmically for their own profit and to keep us on those things. They are making us want to hate each other. They are the poisoners in many cases or they're the platforms that deliver the poison and try and keep you there. And like Elon Musk should be an enemy that we name.

Yeah. Peter Teele should be an enemy that we name. And you know what, it's not just that these guys walked in to help Trump because they knew isn't care about people. Isn't care about their health and well-being. And he was going to help them be properly.

He's going to let them raid our data. Like, these, we are not talking enough about the tech oligarchs as a specific element of the problem. You just say big, nameless, faceless corporation. Fine, you know what? Most Americans work for corporations.

So the tech oligarchs though, they are bleeding us.

“And look, I think there's lots of promise for AI too.”

And there's lots of downsides. I'm not just like reflexively against it. But we do need to sort of balance our humanity here. And I think that these guys are not. They, there's a reason Elon Musk talks about immigration all the time.

He wants to make sure that we think immigrants are the problem and not the tech oligarchs. Like, they are playing a distraction game. And I do think people need to, if you could just tell your friends who we're talking about. I'll tell them. The big thing.

Hey, listen up. What would you include Mark Zuckerberg or Google Tim Cook over at Apple? I mean, I look, I fundamentally agree with you. I think that the more specificity and messaging, the better for a whole host of reasons.

But in part, it's easier to visualize the enemy when you name it. I'm with you though. My frustration with the AI industry generally is like, we watched all these tech barons. Create social media and tell us it was kind of bringing the world together and fix all our problems. And it created a massive number of problems.

And then you have a bunch of the same people kind of run in it back. And now doing the AI thing. And it goes from Elon to Mark Zuckerberg over at Facebook and then Sam Altman, who is, you know, running Y-combinator for a long time and incubating a lot of these companies. Like, there's no lessons learned.

In fact, they carry even less about being perceived as good guys. They're just like, repatious capitalists who wanted all. Okay, and so as somebody who doesn't necessarily discount people, just because of her patient's capitalism. I would say, you know, my favorite description of the board because people are like,

or the capitalist wing of Antifa. [laughter] That's so good. It's good. But I think that for me a lot of it is.

“And that's why, look, there are, I believe in innovation.”

And I believe in trying to solve big and tractable problems. And I think technology can be a big part of that. What you do want is for it to not live in a place of nihilism.

Like, you, these guys are becoming extraordinarily powerful, extraordinarily powerful in our politics.

In ways, I mean, this is why I think the specificity of an Elon Musk, like Elon Musk is somebody who, I think you can look at and say, this person is doing an enormous amount of damage and doing it on purpose. I don't think every tech oligarch is like that. And I think that you, you know, we should probably be careful about not sort of lumping in everybody together.

Because I think there are people who are like, actually there are responsible ways to do this. And like, what are the ways that you could regulate this? And, but those people are becoming fewer and further between. And one of the reasons that so many people could pitch related to tract, including Zuckerberg, including Washington Post.

Bezos, Elon, whatever, is because they were like, well, this guy will just do what we want.

And look, again, doesn't all have to be social good, but it does have to be with like, I don't know some sense of responsibility to the health of the country. And Elon is happy, happy to be a comatrillionaire at the expense of us destroying each other. Absolutely destroying anything in his way. Maha.

The RRFK Junior, obviously he like exploded into the consciousness and popularity by demagoguing vaccines, primarily the COVID pandemic, supercharged everything that he was doing.

“But there was a part of Maha that is totally reasonable, right?”

It's like healthier foods, less processed foods, fewer chemicals in what we're eating, you know, like thinking more about like what we're feeding kids, like all of that is eminently reasonable. I have tons of friends. I'm sure you do too, who are like Maha curious.

And we're like, well, what why are you critical of this RFK guy?

What is what's wrong with any of this, right? It becomes a complicated conversation. But it was always obvious that as a political matter and as a political coalition, there was going to be tension between sincere Maha and Trump's pro-corporation deregulation. In the agenda, getting rid of the EPA, things like that, and you saw this explode recently, where they gave this sweetheart legal deal to the folks who make Roundup, which is this big weed killer that a lot of Maha folks absolutely hate because they think it's like the cancer.

Are you hearing anything about Maha these days? Like is there anger or opportunity for Democrats? I mean, I heard a lot about Maha going into the election. I mean, the number of, it's not just women, but it was a lot of women who were like, I want red dyes out of food. Like they had these very specific issues. That I was like, and I'm a parent, but I, I was like, I've been following that.

But look, there are a bunch of things, I don't know if you feel this way. There are a bunch of things as you become a parent that are happening with kids. You're like, I don't know, it wasn't like this before. Nobody had all these not allergies, right? Or like there wasn't, you didn't know tons of kids who are autistic. Or like there's like all these things that feel new. Things that feel new, right? And so you're like, where is this coming from? Why is this happening?

And I think for parents who of autistic children who feel like they don't know exactly why. There's a lot of people who are like, okay, well, maybe he's going to get to the bottom of some of this.

And actually, I think it's, I'm not sure if I think it's less about what you sound like, it's a little bit more like he's basically a crank.

Who is now, you know, he's like, well, we're getting rid of vaccines everywhere and we're cutting all this medical research. And I, what I hear about Mahah when I do hear about it is like, oh, I was excited for RFK, but like they haven't really gotten anywhere on like X, Y, or Z. But spoke issue was that they were interested in doing it. And in fact, there was a spade of time when they came out. There was a lot of people who were upset about the idea of like,

It was Tylenol causing autism in part because mother's felt like they were being blamed. Like the idea that they spoke Tylenol.

“The only thing you can take when you're pregnant for pain relief and to suddenly take that away from women.”

And then say, and by the way, you're at fault. If your children as a medical problem because you took that, it's so cruel. And if you don't think that those women haven't figured out how to read 11 peer reviewed studies on these things like they have. And so I think that there was there was some real frustration about that. Now, it doesn't come up as much, I think in part because I actually think that the amount of damage being done, especially on the,

I don't know if you saw this the other day, but they have found an MMRA vaccine that is showing tremendous signs of adding longevity to the lives of people with pancreatic cancer.

Extraordinary medical breakthrough.

You think we've been spending more money on MRNA vaccines these days or not. And so like, and I think what's unfortunate is that unlike Trump's tariffs and unlike the war in Iran, Americans feel acute pain from those things. The cutting of scientific research, the cutting of those things. It's kind of thing that takes a decade to show up.

And it's also when discoveries not made and therefore much harder to figure out. And so I, you don't hear as much of that as directly although it's there, but it's much more focused on prices. But I, I just know that we are paying, we're paying a lot and it's just we're going to, we're going to learn about it down the road. Yeah, bills coming due later. I'm going to have a couple more things and I'll get the hell out of your office.

So we've talked about the midterms. Gallup just released a new polling this week about approval of Congress.

“They just asked people, like, do you approve or disapprove of a Congress the institution?”

Like 4%, 10% approved 86% disapprove.

You did it. The all-time low is 9%.

The partisan breakdown was 20% approval from Republicans, 11% from independence.

3% from Democrats, which is not surprising. It's a Republican Congress. Now, for contact, Congress's approval rating has been mostly under water since 1974. The average is 28% approved, 65% disapprove, which is bad. But, you know, 10% is terrible.

“Does that help Democrats that people like hate the institution?”

And we may be have more challenges. How do you think about that? Yeah, Congress is funny because it's weird to get to such a low approval rating when you're not doing anything. Literally nothing. And so, I'm actually, I'm like, people are mad that they're not doing anything, and especially on the Democratic side.

Here's what I do know. I know that Democratic voters are so frustrated with their leadership. I mean, they're mad. They're like, down with the gerontocracy, and if it came Jeffrey, it's like more.

And Schumer don't start going toe to toe with Trump, and they are not satisfied by the answer of,

"We're shut out from political power." They're like, "I don't know you're up there. Can you go do something?" Like, they want to see reflected back to them. This, I keep, kind of rejecting this fight that we have on Twitter about.

Does the Democratic Party need to be more moderate? Does it need to be more progressive? Like, all the voters really want is for it to be more aggressive. They could sort of take a leave, which side of the ideological spectrum you're on, as long as you are going in there and reflecting the anger and upsetness that they feel it,

what Trump is doing, and when you're not doing that, they are mad,

“which is, I think, where you're getting sort of those Democratic numbers.”

And I think, look, so much of this is just, you gave me a body of the government, and I think things are going terribly in the country, and so I want to tell you that I think they're doing a terrible job because the country feels bad. So I don't know that I, and interest in terms of how it affects the midterms, people blame the party in power.

I mean, this is the only reason that I think Democrats can't pick up the kind of seats that they picked up in 2018 is because there's not enough seats available. Like, there's just, because that's so close right now, they can't pick up 40 seats. But like, they can certainly take control. To win 40 seats, we'd have to be winning like Trump plus 12 districts.

Yeah, and I think, like, look, you can get away for you. Are picking up Trump plus seven districts, Trump plus eight? I mean, that wave would have to be so big, but you know what? I'm not discounting it in part because, look, Democrats are extraordinarily motivated, and Republicans are sucking wind.

Yes, and that's where the Tucker stuff, I think. That helps. Do you see some questions? That's nice. That's nice.

Like, I love that. Well, one, one counterpoint to this.

The New York Times reported that Republicans have a $600 million advantage

in terms of fundraising of, like, Republican groups over time. I know. How much does that worry you? Because I think it's easy after 2024 to be like, we pissed away a billion dollars. It didn't move the vote of God damn point.

Yeah. Who cares anymore? But in midterms, it's a bit of a different story often. So, okay, it doesn't worry me that much in the sense that the voters are given to the candidates. The, like, the Democratic candidates, like, towering go and Cooper and Mary Patole,

like, they're putting up huge numbers, like, way over their Republican counterparts. And so, there's an asymmetry that is on either side where the actual Democratic candidates are outreasing their Republican counterparts, where as the Republican infrastructure and the committees are outreasing their Democratic counterparts. And so, and the facts, right?

So, there's, like, tons of the big money coming in, whereas, I think a lot of the big money on the left is, yeah, feeling scared. And, and scared people don't want to put their names on FEC reports because Trump will go after them.

“Like, that is a real thing that is happening, which, and that's why, look,”

I don't know how much money is going in the C4's or stuff, but, like, that money might be evening out somewhere, but, uh, there is a lot of chilling of civic participation via donation dollars because people are afraid of showing up on Donald Trump's radar. Yeah, and the DOJ. So, when we speak from that, it worries me from that point of view.

And then it worries me, I think, from, um, I don't want to just, like, you know, crap on Ken Martin, but I do think that the DNC could stand to, um, up its, up its game a little bit. Yeah, I'm actually, we've been in touch with Ken's team. We're hoping to get them on the show sometime next week to talk about this and the

fundraising and some of the concerns because it is, um, it's a challenging atmosphere. I'm sure it is an absolute slog for him to try to rebuild that place and clear the decks after 2024. Um, but yeah, I'm, I'm anxious, like, you are. And also, but you're right, the, the candidate fundraising is better on the

Democratic side. And that's also important because you get more efficient ad rates as a, elected official than you do as a party committee or a pack. So that's something. Yeah, and for people who are like, uh, get money out of politics and stuff.

I totally, I, yeah, I hear, I hear, but, but, but, but as right now, right,

especially to candidates is a good metric for enthusiasm. And so the idea that these Democratic candidates are outperforming on the

“money side is just a good metric for, I think,”

enthusiasm, especially in a midterm and not a presidential. Totally agree. [ Music ] Positive America is brought to you by the working forest initiative. The working forest initiative is a cross-industry coalition promoting the role of

working forest and driving economic growth and climate resilience. The backbone of the WFI sustainability efforts is a diverse team of working forest professionals. From timber landowners to hiring managers and accountants, GIS analysts mapping the future of our canopy and biologists protecting wildlife.

These experts ensure our working forest remain healthy and resilient. These are the stewards ensuring America's forest thrive for generations to come. The foundational principle of working forest professionals is simple.

Always plant more trees than our harvested.

Planty is what makes working forest sustainable and sustainable working forest or how WFI cultivate healthy ecosystems that reduce wildlife risk. Protect biodiversity provides sustainable solutions for the future. The coalition of working forest professionals does more than managed land. They cultivate a resilient sustainable legacy.

By championing these practices today, the WFI ensures America's forest remain a vibrant resource for our economy and a vital sanctuary for our environment for generations to come. [ Music ] Last question which is end with some maybe irresponsible, definitely premature

speculation about 2028. On the Republicans side, you have a great piece in the Atlantic this week about how groups are the focus groups. Trump voters are talking more and more about Marco Rubio, the archivists.

“I think that's the only job. And the less about J.D.”

Vance, tell us more about that. So this is Marco Rubio is maybe the first candidate I've seen were like a meme seems to be springing to life.

And so the meme of Marco Rubio in the chair like this with the new job,

whatever the job is, is he the new coach of the panthers. He's like every garbage job that you can get. It is a funny joke, but what it is showing people or I think what people are taking away from that is like there is one person in this administration who's not a total clown.

Like, and so you've got to give him all the jobs because he's the only actual serious person and then that's one piece of it. And then another piece is they're kind of looking around and it's like J.D. Vance, who people still will say is the heir apparent. And like, okay, yeah, J.D.

on the magazine, like, I don't really feel it. He's he is for me in focus groups now having done this long enough to see different candidates rise and fall. He's got total Ron to Santa's vibes from Republican voters. The longer they look at it and the more they're like,

the more they look at it, the more they look at it. And so they want to like him or they want to do it. But like, he's not like anybody up and he's getting himself in a sour spot with those two groups I'm talking about. He thought he was going to be able to stand over both of them and

bring them together and instead he's sitting in the bad spot where Tucker's got this part martial over here and Rubio is starting to martial the maga establishment over here. And so that is just interesting to me. It also doesn't help the dog walks around his, you know,

the White House being like, would you like better? JD or Marco? Yeah. Every donor at Margo Logos getting asked who he likes better, Rubio or Vince.

Also like look Rubio, I think it's got a lot of credit from the base on Venezuela operation because he's seen his owning that one. Yeah. When it comes to Iran, they started a war and Marco Rubio has disappeared.

He went to the state. What do you have see fight? Yeah. Well, JD events went over. Yeah.

The fucking pack is saying, JD events like shit's in the tarmac for 21 hours in packs and gets humiliated, flies home. JD and Marco goes to go to a UFC fight. But also Marco Rubio, like, did one press conference where he went up on Capitol Hill and he was like, oh, yeah, we invaded because the Israel,

the lobby made us do it and then he walked away and created this huge disaster for everyone involved. And then it's not said a word sense. He's just divorced himself from this problem. Probably smart politically.

Probably smart politically. I think, and this is, so look, I think that those two are an interesting contrast to me. And I just, I think for me, one of the reasons I'm so interested in hearing the strange new respect from Trump voters and the focus groups is I think

I had long thought that people from the pre-Trump era were publicans from the pre-Trump era were a non-starter for voters. But what's interesting is that especially for younger voters. I don't even know Marco Rubio. The Marco Rubio that I was like, oh, this young man, I like him.

Right. We'll see what he does. Guys, right the water.

“Yeah, that's why I think you know, he was like, he was going to be”

the new person he led on immigration reform. Time magazine, right? It was like the future. Nobody thinks that. Like these guys don't know that guy.

They just know the guy who's been in the tank for Trump.

And so they're sort of meeting him for the first time.

People were like 30 and below.

lap dog for Trump and transformed himself enough that like I obviously

would never vote for him in a million years ever.

But a lot of Trump voters might. Like they wouldn't Nikki Haley, but he's transformed himself enough. So that was an interesting to me. I will just say on the public inside. I think this is another reason I don't give Tucker sort of the genuine thing.

It's like, I do think Tucker's thinking about running for president. I think, look, I was talking to someone yesterday sort of in that world. I asked this question. He thought, no, because it's like a lot of work.

“And also you have to have a genuine thick skin and Tucker doesn't seem like he's someone”

is very futuristic. But I look, I, yeah, I've long wondered if he could jump into a primary and do very well the inside. He would immediately have a base of support. Yeah, it would be interesting.

The last question, on the Democratic side, is anyone making your heart flutter?

Yeah, so I already mentioned all soft in his community side.

Look, I, I tend to be, I, I, I, I'm from Pennsylvania. People get mad. They're like, no one will ever nominate Josh Shapiro. But like, if you follow Pennsylvania politics closely, he is beloved in Pennsylvania. There's just not that many Democrats who have, you know, a 60% approval rating.

He's going to beat his Democratic challenger. People are like, I'm sorry. His, his Republican challenger. Everybody's like, I'm sorry. Yeah, who's he even running against?

I don't know. It's a woman. I'm forgetting her name right now. But like, it's a non-starter. It's not known.

He's like, no. He's going to get angry. Because he crushed the restaurant. That's right. And she's a, well, there's also part of the reason is there's like a, now there's like a weird

story on a writing thing that people are doing. Yeah, it doesn't matter. Anyway, but Pete John Osaf Shapiro, because he's successful in the biggest swing state. Like, all three of them are kind of in my zone for people. But like, here's the main reason. And actually, I'm not going to put Josh Shapiro in this.

He's kind of like a personal eye, eye like him. But I recognize that the Democratic base seems to have some particular feelings about him. But it's a matter of how, how salient Gaza is probably right. I mean, we're getting it. One of my pet theory, yes, but that is why what people don't like about him.

Stacey Garrity, by the way. Stacey Garrity, good job. Way to effort that. Thank you. I do have a pet theory that the way that Democrats deal with what is becoming like a,

I'm not even sure it's as much of a wedge issue because Democratic voters now are pretty. I mean, I can't tell you how many focus groups I do with them in these primaries, they all know who a pack is getting money to. It's not just sort of track a pack. Like people are locked in on this issue. They are mad at Israel.

It is shifting quickly among Democratic independent voters.

“And so I do think I think that the one of the ways that Democrats could handle this is by having a Jewish”

candidate was deeply critical of Israel.

Jamie Fritzker fits that bill. Also fits that bill and Shapiro fits that bill. Ramen ratio. Ramen manual ratio. I don't mean to erase.

I just wrong. I think Ron's going to, I'm going to wrong. I'm just going to inject some interesting energy into the primary line energy. I do not think that's where voters are going. But to inciter. Yeah, and I just think people are looking for a brand like not brand brand new,

but like some place we haven't tried before the not alone history. And so, but the thing is, I will just say, Pete does make my heart go bitter pattern because Pete does the thing that I'm desperate for Democrats to do, which is, like, it's not just going on podcasts. And I saw you guys reacting to his thing.

And I did not think you were nice enough to hand. Let's do the Pete hive. Boy, if you are like, all I said about Pete was I think he's the best one of the best communicators out there. He's unbelievably good.

He could set him anywhere. Fox news, conservatives, all in podcasts. Anyone, he'll dominate CNBC. Crush Joe Kernan. But all I said was I thought that is actually kind of a different skill than being able to go into

every community and get votes in every community. As we've seen, his numbers with black voters, for example, are like very, very low. He really needs to work on that. That was an observation about data.

He people take that shit so personally. Yeah.

“Well, I think part of it is that Pete, part of the reason that they would take a person who”

is put in spires love in people, like they really do. And he does that kind of for me, where I think that he is this idea of like, I'm going to go to Oklahoma and I'm going to talk to people there. I think that's quite a good other way. And the thing is, is that while we tend to get in these Twitter arguments about,

do you go on this podcast or this streamer? He's like, oh, I'm going to actually go sit with people because that's actually the real thing. The rest of this stuff over here is a side show to the real voters. And so I'm because I'm obsessed with listening to voters. I'm obsessed with candidates who care about engaging with voters.

This was like young Joe Biden with the arm around people and like being around, Trump with his stupid rallies, but like creating good dance party vibes. Like the Democrat who is going to win, who I do think is going to be somebody who

vision, hope, future.

How we bring come back together as a country.

I do think people are hungry for that. I think he has it.

“And so, and all soft has just been, like, as I think messaging matters more now than ever.”

And I think he is doing it. And every time I say I'm given a speech, I kind of like do a lap in the room with my hands. Yes.

Yeah, it's hard not to just turn it to a cheerleader.

If he wins that Georgia Senate election, which, you know, knock on wood, he will be vaulted into, you know, top, top candidates. And I'll be there for a whole day. I'll be pushing him. Sarah Longwell, thank you so much for doing this fascinating to talk to you.

I really appreciate it. Yeah, thanks so much. Good to see you.

I'll put gas in your car next time.

“If you want to listen to Pod save America, add free and get access to exclusive podcast,”

go to cricket.com/friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube, or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review that helps boost this episode and everything we do here at cricket. Pod save America is a cricket media production. Our producer is Saul Rubin.

Our associate producer is Faris Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Rechernlin is our executive editor.

“Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics.”

Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Naomi Single is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cone, Haley Jones, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Carol Pelevi, David Tolls, and Ryan Young.

Our production staff is probably unionized with the writer's guild of America at East. [CLICK]