Trump’s Wartime Messaging Disaster (feat. Jen Psaki)

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Let's start a test for today's video on choppy fry.de/recorder. Welcome to Part 7 America, I'm Dan Fife. You're about to hear my conversation with my good friend, Jan Saqli. Former White House press secretary for Joe Biden, and hosted MSNLs the briefing with Jan Saqli. Jan is one of those folks I could talk to for hours about anything.

But this week I invited Iran because I wanted to talk to her. One former White House Comps staffer to another, about how the Trump administration is trying to sell its war in Iran to the American people, and how the media has covered it.

“We also talked a bit about the midterms, including how important Democratic primaries and main Michigan and elsewhere are shaping the future of the party.”

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and helps you understand what you can do to defeat maga in this election and beyond. I have a special deal for cricket fans. Go to crooked.com/ESWDAN for 20% off of your subscription. Here's my conversation with Jensaki. Jensaki, welcome back to Pod Save America. It's a great to be here.

How are you? I mean, the world is a shit storm, but otherwise I'm good. Okay, we'll take that. That's a caveat-ed good in Donald Trump's America. Yes.

There are always- I could talk to you anytime and unfortunately,

because we live on other sides of the country, we only get to talk to each other on podcasts mostly. Or when you've been doing sold out events, then those things. Yes, please emphasize or sold out for everyone to know. There's always a good time to talk to Jensaki,

but this is a particularly good time given what's happening in the world. And before you were a cable news star and a White House press secretary, you also very specifically worked at the State Department. It's a spokesperson and people may not know this. If the outset of the Obama administration,

you were the person in charge of economic messaging during the financial crisis. We're now in the middle of a war and a emerging global economic crisis because of said war. And so you have a lot of expertise to bring this. And I want to have a conversation here that takes a little bit of a step back and looks at, of course, what's happening in the world, but also, like your perspective on how Trump is selling this war.

But before we get to that, what's just your reaction to- what was your reaction when you woke up that Saturday morning to discover that we had gone to war with Iran? Both the reaction is a person and American and a member of the media would have to cover said war.

First of all, just as a sidebar, I didn't even do this for you, but I have, and my coffee isn't an economic report to the President mug from to the United States. A relic, I got from the economic team at the time, just to prove. Yes, that you were there.

“I think like so many Americans, I woke up and was scared.”

Because it is always scary when you're the country you're living in goes to war.

And it is not a decision as you know well and I know well that any President makes lightly to use military force even if it's for a smaller engagement than this is. But I think I felt fear because Donald Trump has no impulse control. He's not a planner, he's not a policy-wank or expert, he doesn't listen to anyone around him. And so the concern I had once I had some coffee and I just did a bit was

I mean, even initially even in that first day because the military strikes and the military

action and we have the best military in the world bar none, that is true. You know, it's very difficult to dig out of what the impact of that is. And that was evident very quickly, I mean within days. The Seams, we're now three weeks into the war. It things are seem to be getting worse, not better, they are expanding, not contracting.

We seem to be further away from extricating ourselves than we were three weeks ago. And as we sit here recording this on Friday morning there is reporting that the White House is getting closer to using ground troops.

Talking, there was some White House aides quoted on background saying how ground troops have been

used in every war, why wouldn't they be used here that it's not that big in deal. Just help us understand both these substantive and political impact of putting ground troops either in a ran proper or in the islands like Carg Island in the middle of the straight-in-a-formers. Well, it's a very slippery slope. And so even as we've seen the buildup of troops sending more even to the Middle East over the past couple of weeks, I think there was something like 50,000

plus there was another announcement a couple of days ago about a couple more thousand. It is a slippery slope where it becomes kind of clear that in most scenarios of war or troops on the ground, as they say, that's where it was headed.

And I think that is alarming on so many levels because that is something that is very difficult to

dig out of. Once you have people on the ground, you have the military and the commander and chief and others are going to want to do what they feel is winning. And that is a get-a-question. We don't know the answer to. What is winning here? How do we win? I mean, it's a big freaking question that they have not answered. Also, we have a different view of that than Israel, which is

“a huge massive separate but important issue. On the political front, I mean, I think, you know,”

we have there have already been lives lost. Even I both know very well. And I think we've both heard Barack Obama say this many times. I heard Joe Biden say this many times. The most difficult phone call, the most difficult letter any commander in chief writes or should write. And I don't know how Trump feels. And I know he's like devoid of human feeling and emotion in a lot of ways is to the family of somebody who died, even in an in a moment of, you know, a member of the military,

even when they are defending the country, even when they are doing something that is of great honor and great sacrifice. And certainly they all are. But this is a word that no one has any idea what it's about, right? It feels like it's about his ego. It's about his feelings. And so, if you're these families who's 18 year olds, 20 year olds, or 30 year olds, or your husband is going, now that impacts not just that family of an impacts communities impacts states on, it makes people

question the worth of this. And then there's, of course, the issue that is beyond the impact on the

“military. And I think about the military impact in a lot of ways like states. I mean, just to be”

super political and I know we'll get there. Yeah, of course. And about this in talked about this, Texas has the largest number of veterans in the country, right? It also has, I think, maybe the most or almost the most number of military bases in the country. It also has one of the most interesting Senate races in the country. Now, a lot of those people probably voted for public end, and probably voted for John Gornin, and maybe most of them will again. But if some of them are like,

what is this about? This feels a little Iraq war-like. This feels, I mean, that's, you know, also Georgia, huge military presence, right? I mean, these are, this is, it can flow into that. And then there's, of course, the gas prices issue an impact of the longevity of a war. Like this, we've already seen it. I think I'm just going to go economic nerd, but I'll have the data in front of me. You have the mug to prove it. So go for it. I have the mug. I love data.

“I mean, I think as of last night, it really depends on the part of the country. But it was like”

anywhere between like 88 cents and over a dollar, more per gallon, right? And gas. And there is no way to change that. You remember almost Hawkestein? We had him on, like, talk to him last night up. Yes, yes, yes. We're a little nerd. I was embracing. I just wanted to keep it going. But he, but there's no way, we've seen military analysts and others say this. There's no way to end the kind of dysfunction or the disturbance in the global oil markets, unless the state of

Formus is reopened, right? And that is either going to require a negotiation or military action. So if you go back to the political front, we're already at 88 cents or a dollar, whatever it may be. It could be larger. And if Israel keeps striking places and they keep striking back in the Middle East. And so there are other, like what happened in Qatar. There are other oil fields off market could be even higher. And that is a massive political problem for Trump and for Republicans running

with Iran. In fact, people probably voted for the, if they voted on war at all, they voted for the

opposite of that. Don't you think, I mean, one of the most, well, interesting to watch is like the complete division in the maga baseland of over this, right? Yeah. Yeah, the thing is is really that part is really interesting because you have the high profile people like Megan Kelly and Tucker Carlson and Sean Ryan, who's the very prominent podcast, who's a former Navy SEAL who he put out a, like an Instagram TikTok post about like just running through the quotes of all the

people who said this would not happen, JD Vance, Steven Miller, et cetera. But at the same time, you have the 85 to 90% of self-identified maga voters are okay with the proof of the war with

“the rent. And that is like a very interesting divide, which I think is what you make of that divide.”

And whether that's sustainable or I don't know that it's sustainable, but I think it's probably

just pure loyalty to Trump and his continued hold on a still a huge percentage of the maga base, what do you think? Yeah, so I think there are a couple things going on here. I think one, there are these are hardcore Trump voters. They're going to be for whatever Trump is for, right? And there's a, and there, look, we should also wear, we have hardcore voters on our side, right? Like if you look, this is not the same thing, it's not as I would stipulate this before I get destroyed,

for saying it's not the same thing. But that we had people who, like, I'm a hardcore supportive number of Democrats, refused to acknowledge that Joe Biden was too old, right? Like, we had that too, right? Despite that. Like, there are people like, we're for our team, whoever our team is.

“Right? Now, I think there is a much greater set of hypocrisy in what's happening on the”

Republican side here. Yes. But like the thing that, from like a purely political perspective, and I'm going to get us to the messaging around this thing in a minute, but from a purely political perspective, the terms of like winning races, right, taking the majority, winning the electoral college, we do not care that much, that 85% of self-identified negative Republicans are with Trump, right? Like that, that is not, that is not the issue. Now, if we also, we want to

start competing in North Dakota, we got to get the number to like 65, but in terms of winning, even winning in Texas, Alaska, Iowa, Ohio, right, that is a sustainable number. What we care about are independence of a different Trump, and Republicans who do not identify as maga, because I think I think we've all in the sort of political conversation, post 2024, convinced ourselves that maga is a movement based on a set of views, right? That it is, it is, you know, anti-immigration.

It is anti-trade. We believed it was America First Nationalism,

smaller government, those sort of things. It is not those things. No, it is maga is another way of saying Trump, what Trump is for, therefore. And that is that we have to accept, when you, when you accept that reality, you start then realizing two things. One, those people are not leaving Donald Trump any time soon, if ever. And that the party could look very differently after Trump. Now, I am not arguing that all of a sudden, like, our friends at the bullwork are going to be like the

bullwork republicanism, or, you know, or Mitt Romney Republicans in this coming back, I don't think that. But that it is a very open question about the Republican party looks like going forward, because once Donald Trump is sort of out of politics, per se. So that's sort of my take on it. Oh, totally. I mean, that is such an interesting way of laying it out. I mean, we are, it's not, it Republicans in Pennsylvania are not eight, not 85% math, right? And so states that

we need to compete, Democrats need to compete in in 2026. And then 2028, it's not that majority base. I mean, just to, I know we'll talk about the electoral politics of this. But on the maga side, I mean, one of the most interesting characters to me and all of this is JD Vance, and how he has

“navigated this. And you may remember, I've, I've been trying to think about kind of normalcy”

in what a vice president would do. Now, it, I mean, Joe Biden, when Barack Obama was president, kind of came to the table with more foreign policy experience, right? So he, and he was more for engagement in a lot of ways military action at a lot of times, then, then Obama necessarily was. So he would have probably been more front and center, not that we would have done this at all. But it feels, I mean, JD Vance has been so silent, right? And when he has spoken,

government, he is the vice president for is, is waging, and that to me goes to what use, it's like, it's like in his mind, he's got to be loyal to Trump. But he also knows there's like a part of the base that's sort of his, his people, too, right, who aren't for this. It was a, it's so awkward,

“but I think that's what's going through his mind. The JD Vance thing is interesting because this,”

this, this, this doesn't make a lot of sense because Joe Biden actually ran for president and became president, but for the, almost the entirety of the eight years of the Obama administration, no one thought Joe Biden was running for president. And he wasn't doing a single thing prepared himself for an president. He wasn't forming a pack. He wasn't going to early states. It honestly wasn't until late early 2015 when I, we were in a meeting in the situation room

and the vice, then vice president pulled me aside and said, told me that he was thinking of running for president and he wanted that he had definitely had not fully ruled that out yet and he wanted to sit down and talk about it. And that was the first, like, I almost felt on my chair. I was because

I was surprised, but why that matters it and then you had Cheney for eight years who was never

running president. So we haven't had a presidential candidate in waiting in the vice president's office since I'll go or calculations at all times. Yes. And having to balance that loyalty to the president with their future political ambitions. And so we're seeing that with you guys. I think he's handling this incredibly poorly and it just shows a very simplistic view of politics, like just imagine the world where JD Vance is running in the Republican primary. So Donald Trump serves as full term.

Doesn't go to prison. JD Vance is running. There's going, other people will run, right? And that one of those, the most likely candidate who was not JD Vance is someone who was running against Trump either from the right or the left or maybe both. And so JD Vance wins by being the Trump candidate. Not by splitting the difference between the Trump candidate and the non-Trump candidate.

Because if he's something different than Trump, he's never going to be the pureest version of

“something different than Trump. And so the worst thing that can happen to him is being seen is”

this so disloyal by Trump that Trump does not back him because he needs Trump to back him to win. Yeah. Yes. And right now, I feel like reading a couple of these stories, just given how many stories you and I've pitched between us probably thousands, where it's like a source close to JD Vance says in a meeting, he expressed concerns about the impacts of the war, right? And then it's like then they're on the record saying, he's here to support what, whatever they're saying. He's probably

the same person. He's probably the same person. Let me tell you moving on background. Let me tell you something on record. The other, the thing I was going to say about electoral polls, not that not that elected officials in Washington are the determinant of what the politics in the country are, but one interesting thing I think that's interesting to watch in DC is whenever this supplemental package comes together, right? Because there's been a range of reporting this week on it being

$200 billion, maybe it'll be exactly that who knows without any specifics around it.

No, Mike Johnson is like, yeah, that sounds good. Whatever he said, we're just so predictable. But there are a number of Republicans kind of telling democratic senators on background, basically saying like, I don't, I'm not for that. Now, we'll see what actually happens. Lisa Murkowski is a little publicly. We'll see what actually happens. But, you know, it could fail. Like a couple of months of funding vote could fail, and that would be a pretty significant loss for trumpets. Yeah.

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“on the war because I think that that is the precursor to the larger political conversation about”

how it's going. And it also I think the messaging is also a proxy for the entirely messed up policy process that brought us to this because if you can't explain why you did it, it's possible you didn't know why you were doing it. But let's take a listen to some of the very Trump administration explanations for what we're doing in Iran. Our objective is to defend the American people by eliminating eminence threats from the Iranian regime. We knew that there was going to be in

Israeli action. We knew that that would precipitate an attack against American forces and we knew that if we didn't preemptively go after them before they launched those attacks, we would suffer higher casualties. I might have forced their hands. You see, we were having negotiations with these

lunatics. And it was my opinion that they were going to attack first. If we didn't do it first,

they would have done it to Israel. We did an excursion. You know what an excursion is? We had to take

“a little trip. We just said it is a little excursion and you said it is a war. So which one is it?”

Well, it's both. I think that was your your old sparring partner Peter Ducey at the end asking that question. Well, I have to say he's had a couple of good moments of asking real legit questions, which make Trump mad because they're really legit questions. So there's this. But as a communications professional, who's worked on not, but worked on like high national security issues. What's your, what's your sort of take on what's been happening here?

I mean, first of all, I have no idea what the message is. Nobody knows what the message is. In part because the message, as you know well, it's not magical. A sheet of talking points is not a magic document. It's based on the justification for why you're doing something, right? And what you want to achieve through it. And if that doesn't exist, it's really hard to write good talking points. Now, there are still things that aside, like the continued use of

excursion that you're like. That means incursion. He means incursion. But it keeps say excursion. And so it sounds like he's talking about like a sale, you know, like a little boat sale or something. Um, you know, I think what's clear, what, what it's made me think a little bit about is during the Iran negotiations, um, then roads, um, used to lead these kind of twice weekly, um,

about what was happening with the negotiations and what the messaging was going to be, right?

“What were the parameters of what you could say publicly, how were we all explaining from the defense”

department, the State Department, the White House, CIA, not that they say a lot. What we were saying because you want to be singing off the same song sheet, not just for, because it's better. But also for members of Congress, is you're trying to get them to do things for our allies and partners, even for our adversaries. I mean, this looks like a freaking disaster, right? If you're China or Russia, you're like, well, they, I'm just going to sit back here and watch this craziness

unfold. Um, so there's certainly that it also, I mean, you know, we both worked in a White House

where there was a lot of memo writing, right? And a lot of red teaming as we called it, um,

which is a good process in government, though, where you're sitting in a meeting and we did that. But there were people who were national security leaders who were doing that at a much more highly consequential level than us, right? Mapping out what would the impact be of military action in Iran? Well, it's entirely predictable. And a national security expert will say that it would have impacted the state of our moves that it could have led to, um, the conversation about

troops on the ground, that it's really difficult to actually get any of this, um, nuclear material at point being, that process happens before you even are developing, right? The public talking points. And, and in the process of making a decision and because that didn't happen and it seems like Trump, I don't know the facts here, woke up on like a Friday and was like, let's do this. Um, it looks, disjointed and confusing and meanwhile, people are like, I don't know what the

hell is happening, but my gas is a dollar more a gallon, right? Or it's $20 more to fill it up. So, yeah, I would give them a F-minus on this. Yes, it doesn't go low enough to do it. I don't even, it's

“like probably their worst messaging, I think, um, of things they've done in this term. But that's”

just my effort. For, for, for like, with, I think without a question, it's their, it's their worst messaging because they don't actually have a message. It's just a rotating series of rationals that are often in conflict with each other, right? It's, yeah, Ruby is saying, the imminent threat

was not, first it's Trump saying there was an Iran was going to attack us or imminent threat.

Then Ruby is in the threat. It's actually, yeah, Israel attacking Iran and then Iran retaliating against us. Then there's Trump saying, no, no, we made Israel do it. In the first several hours after the attack, Trump said it, the purpose was for the freedom of the Iranian people. Then he said it wasn't Iran. It wasn't regime change. Then it was going to kill last two weeks, it kept last 30 days. It could last longer. Just there's no story. And I think there is a lot to criticize in their

communications here in their messaging here. This is ultimately a policy problem. What, yeah, I guess that's sort of the question right. This is the thing you and I would say all the time is, you know, an unemployment would be at 10% or the health care network website would not be working.

“People will come and say, well, why don't we get, you know, what's the press strategy was the messaging?”

Can you be like, it's not a messaging problem. It's not a comes problem. It's a policy problem. This one I think is actually both. Yeah, that's, that's true. And I used to have a mug that's at an ACP not a comes problem because this is, you get a lot of mugs. You really express yourself through ceramic quiet, yes. That is true. And not to like take any blame off of Stephen Chung here, who is successful. Yes, but what are you working with here, right? If you're him, it's like,

okay, why are we in this war? You know, what are the basic questions, right? Because as you will know, and I know, you sit in a meeting about policy, a policy decision is being made, and you're sitting there saying, okay, how are we going to explain this and your pressure testing the things, right? Why are we in this war? Well, because there's an imminent threat based on what, also the Intel communities about to contradict us. So like, you know, there's like,

that doesn't even work as a comes thing, right? Okay, we're going to go get the nuclear material. Well, how? Well, it's really difficult to get the nuclear material. So that's not great. So point is, it's like, they're messaging this terrible, and obviously they should throw themselves in front of him every time he says the word excursion. But yes, but it's, if, and I cannot, I doubt their pressure testing things in the same way we would have or other people who are running

competent communications operations would have, but they have very little to work with here, because of all the reasons. Yeah, I mean, there is like, there's no messaging strategy that helps

like, there is not. The place where I think that is fair to be critical, and I also say,

it's not the communications department's job to come up with the reasons why you go to war. It's the people we're supposed to have that reason before we go to war. You can't,

“because that's not our thing. Exactly. Exactly. But where I think they did make a fundamental”

mistake that is making their problems much worse than they otherwise would be, and they would be pretty bad under even the best of circumstances, is that they spent no time before the war, trying to explain why we would go to war. Yes. Like Trump gave the longest state of the Union in history and spent like two minutes on a run. Also, that's true. And it was like, what a week before? I mean, not even. It was four days before. I think it was the Tuesday,

and then we went to war that Friday night, and we were in our goal state of the Union. I don't even remember hardly anything in it. Also, he did a speech, which the networks gave him time for, I would just know that I don't even remember what it was about a prime time address, and he didn't choose to do that for this. That is, that is all true. Now, what's all so true. Now, I feel like I'm like defending this even. Which is a weird place. No, no, no, no, let's stipulate you're not

defending Stevenson. It felt so, and we don't know. And there's, you know, we're reporting on this, I guess. There'll be more reporting. But as much as Trump is clearly kind of wanted to do something like this, we also don't know if like he literally made the decision two days in advance, right? You know what I mean? It's like, and it's communication team was like, okay, like, here we are. So, that is possible, too. I don't know. Yeah, it's very, because you, when you see in the

polling, right? The polling is all very bad for this war. But how bad it is, really depends on how the question is asked. Like, there's a poll out this morning, which asks the question in terms of whether you approve of the war to take out the IOTL and stop their nuclear ambitions. That polls much better than do support with the war with the rent. And, and so like, like, it's all bullshit, because they were Trump told us a few months ago that he obliterated,

not even a few months ago. He told us like two weeks before the war, that he had so obliterated their nuclear capacity that we would have to bomb the dust, right? The leftover dust.

“But if you, there was a, there was a way, like, if you want to take the country to war,”

you have to do, you have to have a reason to do it. You have to do it. You have to do it.

It immense planning process for what happens after the first bomb drop,

and so they did not do here, right? They absolutely did not do. They seem flumixed by everything that's happening. But you also have to go to the country and go to the world and build a case for it. And they did, they did not even try. That may have failed, they probably would have failed under all scenarios. Yeah. But they did try. And one of the reasons I think they didn't try is the people around Trump who wanted to do this knew that if you

talked about it, everyone would say, don't do this. And so they really tried to do it, make the biggest, most dangerous, most consequential decision a president makes on the cheap. Yeah, without putting any of the work in to tell the story. Now, I mean,

“it also is why this is, I think, the most unpopular first couple of weeks of a war,”

ever, is it ever? Yes, ever. Yeah. There was no polling at the outset of the Vietnam War, but I suspect this would be even more popular than that. Right. And the interesting thing as you will know very well about, since you do the polar poster as a listener, about the phrasing of that poll, right? It's like, are people going to care in two months that the Iatola is dead? And his son, who's more hard-blind than he is in younger,

actually, if they pay attention, they'd be like, I don't know that that's better, right? And they're, they're not really paying attention. They're paying whatever more for gas. And they've lost service men and women from their community. They care that the Iatola's dead? Yeah. And then it's like, we're not ending their nuclear program because they still have no how to do it. And we can't actually, I mean, David Tanger wrote a very nerdy, but well done story of the difficulty. I don't

where I'm not going to spend a lot of time here. And I'm not an expert on this, but I found it interesting of like, they, the Iranians know, they've probably divided it up into many, many canisters, right? All of those canisters, like you could, even if our military had to go in on the ground, or these realers or whatever it is, and get those canisters, they could drop. They could implode. Anyway, point is, it's really difficult. And we don't even know we're all--

And you'll never know if you got it all. You've never know what it all exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

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about the war is not through your typical, you know, national televised press conference, although we have some one of those, or an address to the nation. Is that he is basically just doing anything. But he's not calling anyone. He's just picking up random calls from reporters. Tommy tried to call him on the show last week, because his number is so available. Tommy was able to get it.

“Your colleagues, Stephanie, rule. I think spoke to me there last night or this morning,”

and had a 15 minute interview with him. Just first, I started it from your spectrum as a concept for what sort of adjective would it give you? If reporters were just calling Barack Obama or Joe Biden on their cell phones, like at all times, he was just picking up the call, and you're discovering he took the call by the tweet. I mean, a whole host of agita, like not really sleep at night. I mean, it is, there's also this larger, like, is access

what should be applauded when access is like, well, yeah, I want to ask you about that too. Whatever, we'll get there. I have, now, but it is tons of agita for a range of reasons. First of all, I mean, every president knows they should know Trump is a little unique. Everything there is to know, right? It doesn't mean about, like, how they're thinking about policies and the status of things and many things that are secret. It's not their job to know entirely,

although they should always be reading and stuff. What's been reported, right? What's out there,

like the difference between what is known about what happened in a private meeting and what isn't known. So, you know, it's like, they should know that, but they don't always because they're running the country, right? So there are things like that, but yeah, it would give me a great deal of agita,

“I think. They don't seem to, though, they're kind of, I mean, just watching Caroline Levitt”

communicated about this sometimes feels like, I mean, she, it's like, an elk, whatever it was. And we can have a go, she left on the table that there might be a draft. Can you imagine, when you were the comms director of senior advisor of somebody out there on a Sunday show it done that, you would have lost your freaking mind, you know? I would have marched, I would have taken, I would have met them at their house, take it, put them in a car and

driven directly back to the Sunday show to refute it. Right. Exactly. I don't even know what you would have done, but like, it is, those type of things happen because they're just, it's just, like, they just want to please daddy, you know, it's a crazy way to run a White House.

On the question of access, right? There, you know, I was one of the people who was pretty critical

I've been of the view that Democrats, that in this media age politicians need to be communicating

all the time, that approach has benefited Trump in a lot of ways. It helped get him here. So there's two questions on the subject. One is, like, as a member of the media, what do you make of just the fact that we, is it like, is it, put, put the specifics of Trump's aside, but like, is it a good thing that people can just call the president all times? And then, like, what do you see is the limits of this as a communication strategy? On its face, I don't think it's a bad thing necessarily.

I mean, it's like, I mean, I think that anybody running for president in 2028, all 117 of them, right? They're going to have to do a ton of interviews, right? And they should, and they should talk to everybody. All of them on your show and our show. Right. Both of them should be there. And whatever else they want to do, but, but I agree. But primarily, your show in our show, probably all your show. No board. I'm just kidding. They can do the board just after us.

Right, fair, fair. To make them fifth. No, I agree with that. And like, they have people have to be out there. And whenever somebody's even coming on our show, I'm sure for you guys, and they're like litigating, like, we can't do 10 minutes. We can only do six, you're like,

“okay, you know, just wait till you have to do like a round-raven of 12 interviews when you're like”

on the road or whatever it may be. So I think that's a good thing. I think the thing that is challenging or concerning, and it's hard to even monitor this, really, is sometimes people reporters, journalists, talk to a president, and then they feel like, "Gady about it," right? They feel like, "Oh, I can call Donald Trump." And like, I can talk to him. And like, he has given me all this access, and, you know, he calls me and teases me about my interviews,

or whatever it may be. And there's no way that doesn't shade how they report things, or talk about them, even if it's not conscious. Now, there are many people who don't do that, right? So it's, but it's like, it's a very hard thing to monitor. I feel like I was reading this interview with, or saw it, I don't remember. It's all running together, with Jeffrey Goldberg, right, that I think he did with Ben Smith, where he talked about how after he reported on Signal

Gate, Trump was like, "You won this one. Why did you come see me more?" Right? And like Jeff Goldberg doesn't give a shit about that, right? He's not going to like change his reporting, because Trump is like, "Come see me." I don't know that that's true for everybody, and even if it's not conscious,

“and I think that is the thing that's a little tricky. Yeah, like, I mean, every president does the”

access thing, like, when we were, I mean, we were thrilled about the records, and like, yeah, we would bring in columnists off the record all the time to meet with Obama, you'd bring in people, you know, you do want the record stuff too, but one of the ways, just like you hope it shapes coverage. And it's not just like, grifting in Trump's shape and coverage, you're like, the idea of the off the record conversation is to have, or the background conversation, like, and you can,

we can dispute the, like, journalism ethics of participating in these things, but the argument for from our side was, you want people to understand why the president is doing certain things,

in ways in which he can't, if you were to just, that you're never going to ask in those

questions, and everybody would have explained the strategy, or his general approach to politics, policy, et cetera, you're at least interpreting the things you see him saying and doing through the framework of what we're doing. Like David Plough and I, we were in the White House,

“we used to do a, I think it was a weekly meeting, you know, deep background meeting with the White”

House press that we would, which had to try to explain, it's people like, like this, I want you to understand how we see the world. So when you see what we're saying, you understand, for part, for fact, if you can, yeah, you can think it's stupid or wrong or bad or whatever else, but at least you understand what our thought process is. I think the hard part with the Trump cell phone thing, and this is unique to Trump is, and you sort of, you hinted at this, but

there is this confusing access with information, which if the president talks to you, but he doesn't tell you anything, he lies, right? Yes. Yeah. It's like, what is the value? Yeah, it's like what, yeah, that's different. Like, it is certainly true, and I believe this, that people should take what the president says seriously, even Trump. And Trump gets away with saying a lot of things, because a lot of people in the press don't take him seriously. Like, I was yelling about this with

John yesterday, but Trump said that he believed that Iran was about to strike the United States, and that they were going to have a nuclear weapon within a short period of time. That is a lie. Yeah. That is not born out by any of the intelligence, his own DNI and CI director would not say that under oath yesterday, and with this sort of like, Trump says things, you know, and so there is, like, I want him to take it seriously, but it's like, there is something that's like uncomfortable

with the breathless, like, uh, selfie videos, reporters were taking him, which is like, I just

got off the phone with Trump, and here's what we told me. And it's like, well, what's the context

to say after, like, what, like, I don't know the right answer. I'm not a reporter. It's not for me

to decide, but there is just something uncomfortable with, like, I both want people that reporters who take what he says seriously and hold him to account for those things, but also not treat his every utterance as, like, this huge exclusive get when he's just vomiting words into your foot.

“You know, it's like, it's very hard. It's very hard, and I think, and, you know, there have been”

moments of headlines where you're like, what the fuck, you know, I mean, it's like, we're about, I mean, things, Trump has said, but things as administration has said, that just are not true, that, like, there isn't enough testing of, right, and pushing of, right, and maybe that is easy for me to say, but it's like, I don't, I mean, this was an, I guess, Trump driven, but I remember

when Tom Holman went in, right, and was like, the new ZAR, or whatever, in Minnesota, and you're

like, people are like, this is a leaf, a new leaf turned, you know, and you're like, is it? Like, this is the guy? I mean, it's kind of, yeah, anyway, that's kind of a random example, but, yes, your point, it's a little, there's something that's uncomfortable about it, even though, I think Democrats who are running, and the next Democratic president should do a lot more engaging with the press, right, and I don't mean coming into the press briefing room and doing that, they can,

but like, I mean, doing of range of other things, and it should be constant, it should be like daily, or almost daily, and, and that's true, but yeah, there's something that's uncomfortable about the selfie videos after a call where it's like, and Trump says there was an imminent threat, and you're like, but there wasn't, you know, so it's like, I know it's hard. Yeah. The other thing about this is I remember in, I was actually thinking I was coming to see you in the White House

“after the election in 2016, and I was in town, I think I came in to see you in my old office,”

and then I went in to see Obama, and as I was walking in, like, Susan Rice, who's now scared of us or time, and a bunch of the national security people had just walked out. Obama had just done a call with a world leader, and they're all, you know, all the goons are in there, pre-phenome, they got these, all these experts, and he said to me, as I walked in, he's like, "Well, we're about to find out if all of the prep, you know, and the policy really matters as

much of these guys say it is." And Trump navigated, he got very lucky in his first term,

and was able to, like, half-ass a bunch of things, and nothing bad happened until the pandemic. That's something horrendous happened. But from a foreign policy perspective, it was kind of a quiet time. But here is the example. This is the chickens coming home the roost of a president who doesn't pay any attention to policy. Is it interested in it? It doesn't think seriously about these things and surrounded by people who don't think seriously about these things you end up here.

And that applies communications wise, too, which is when you're just talking about the economy or immigration, maybe you can just fly by the city of your pants, say what you want here and there. But when you're talking about a war, what you say matters. And if you're just talking out of your ass every time someone calls you on the phone, you're going to have, like, a domestic political and international public diplomacy disaster. That's kind of what we see here.

Yeah. I mean, because it's not just him kind of saying weird stuff about the Texas Senate primary, right? It's like, you know, it's him throwing things out there about, like, it may be over tomorrow or maybe months, right? It would make, you know, it's like, and people kind of pay attention out there to what he says. Now some of it, I'm not a markets expert, maybe some of it's baked into the markets. I don't even know. But like, it's still for people

who are trying to understand where this is going and why and what the impact is going to be, whether it's an ally or an adversary or a senator or a person with a child in the military, it's like, you've no idea. And it's real. And it's, it's not, like, fun in games.

“Obviously. I mean, I remember how much time we spent thinking about the things that we said.”

Not just Barack Obama, but the White House press secretary, anyone on TV, anyone who spoke on behalf of the president, anywhere at the government, how those words would be interpreted by not just the American people. And that matters a lot, obviously. But the markets, like, there are times when the financial crisis were things that people said could send the market really, how it would be viewed by other governments around the world, both friend and foe.

Yeah. And then tell me in a time of this the other day. But just, like, as we were engaged in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, one of the things we were thinking about a lot was how the rest of the Muslim world was seeing what the United States was doing. In terms of what that would mean for

Al Qaeda and ISIS in the rest and thinking about those things. And they're thinking about

none of those things as far as I can tell. Like, it's just sort of wild to take it so unceriously. I mean, exactly. And you think about, and I remember when I was at the state department, as the spokesperson there, you think about how people informed capitals. Right? And every single day, yes. They read those transcripts because they see it as indications of where the United States is. And sometimes it's, I mean, currently it's like a lot of people are looking for

other partners, looking for other kind of global leaders or global superpowers to be partners with economically or otherwise. I know. I, the, the Pete Heggseth management of all of this, I mean, it's like, is he playing Colin Joe's, does Colin Joe's playing him? I don't even know the times. It is, but it is, there are moments certainly where anyone's worked in a White House wants to just scream and yell about the press, right? But his strategy of berating reporters for asking

“very valid questions about war also is, I think people are watching that around the world, right?”

This is the Secretary of Defense, right? And it is, you know, so it's not just, it's certainly Trump, but it's also the some of the people around him who are contributing to the lack of seriousness, they're which, you know, we're, the war is being portrayed or how the U.S. government is handling as being portrayed, of course.

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From continual optimian, all is super-integreary and far-right. And the time and the money that I dare to pay for can't be invested in. For all of them, in Waxtum. You've worked on a lot of campaigns in your life, sort of in the initial, you like, this even, like, Democrats will probably favor it to take the house before the war. That's depending on how this goes or how long it stands. That's obviously going to probably not be great for

Trump and the Republicans. But right now, as we look at the main conversation about the midterms,

spent on both in Texas and nationally, I'm sure on, you know, your, your network and our network,

“as well, on the Texas primary between James Delereco and Jasmine Crocket. Honestly, we have spent”

so much time talking about the main primary. There's nothing fascinating. Michigan primary coming up. In a couple of months, there's another primary Massachusetts, another one in Minnesota. As you sort of look at, you know, Democrats currently are a part of a little bit of drift, in terms of, like, what we stand for, these primaries are supposed to be, I think, a way of trying to figure that out. What do you see, sort of, is the major dividing lines

in the party that's sort of metaphesting itself in the primaries here? And that it could be that the primaries are each individually different, but curious to take on it. Yeah, they do feel a little bit individually different to me, at least. I mean, Maine, I know we've spent a lot of time talking about Maine. I know you guys have too. And it is, what is fascinating to me about that race, is that in many ways, Scrum Platner has, like, defied political gravity, right? From what you,

and I maybe have lived through or known through doing many, many campaigns over the course of years, which is like, if you have a big scandal that comes out, that's old that people didn't

“know about, it's going to change the perception of voters of you, right? Right? What is that tell you?”

Well, maybe scandal matters a lot less than it did back in the age, the day. Maybe Trump has muted that a bit for people, right? Also, people are looking for, and it's so hard to describe this. I guess somebody they feel identified with as being like them. Now, is it like, oh, he's like me, because I also had a Nazi tattoo. I'd covered up. No, I don't not saying that, but just made mistakes in perfect doesn't feel like a politician. I think that doesn't feel

like a politician is a big factor to state the obvious doesn't feel like Washington. This is a big, I live in Washington or Virginia, but like, it feels like a very anti-establishment anti-washington trend that may be universal across a lot of these races. I mean, even if you look in the polling in Michigan and we haven't seen the primary outcome yet, right? Grim Platner, I don't know, without

“knowing what his political affiliation is, if you don't listen to like every position he has, right?”

You might not know if he's a Democrat or Republican, probably same metallurico, and they're both very progressive on a range of issues, right? So that may be a unifying thing. Somebody who can kind of break through and as an effective communicator, all this stuff sounds very obvious, if as I say it out loud, but like traditional old school politicians who have risen up through elected office feel less like this is their year to state perhaps the obvious.

What do you think of this? Yeah, so I think the focus on Texas was interesting because I think it's the least relevant of all of the divides because I sort of see that I see there are sort of three divides that are sort of dominating the party. One is center and left, right? Like every primary has some way a opportunity to litigated, you know, an ideology, you're going to have a more liberal

candidate, a more moderate candidate. And Puerto Rico and Cracket were basically having exact

state positions for all intents and purposes. They were both sort of down the line in terms of the like what they actually support, they're kind of like down the line, Normie Democrats, and like they're a couple things here. They talked differently about how they wanted to win the electorate. Their divide was one. Yes, was a political strategy fight, right? Isn't it fire up the base or is it a bit built? The second divide is generational, right? That is, that's a part of our

meals. That is Seth Moulton and Ed Markey. He's just, it's like, you see that a lot, a bunch of these house races. You're seeing a ton of younger candidates taking on older candidates like that, that is obviously some trace. And then the third one is inside outside. In the inside outside one

is one of the reasons why the main thing is interesting, which is, and it's hard to, you never know

what's causation and what's correlation with these things, but as far as we can tell, Platner is winning the primary. And see, by how much is an open question, you see polls with the hugely, you see polls with us. They're a lead, but the gist of the polling is that Platner has an advantage. Now, we haven't seen polling since Janet Mills went on the air with an ad, highlighting the reddit posts and those sorts of things. So we'll see if that changes. But it's just

very interesting that this oysterman who has went through a brutal media cycle who is leading the incumbent governor of the state who is endorsed by the DSCC and Chuck Schumer and everyone else.

maybe, is Platner winning because he's younger and Janet Mills would be the oldest person

“elected to the Senate, I believe. You know, certainly in our party after everything we went”

through with Biden, maybe, is he winning because she's endorsed by the establishment and including Chuck Schumer and Chuck Schumer has a minus 31 approval rating among Democrats right now, maybe. So it's hard, it's hard to know what that is, but those are those are sort of the things happening. I mean, every race is different, right? Yeah. Michigan has an establishment ish candidate in Haley Stevens who's endorsed also also picked by Schumer. So there's also picked by

Schumer and the DSCC and then you have a Bernie candidate and Abdullah Saeed and then you have no more, who's not an anti-establishment candidate per se, but is it endorsed by Elizabeth Warren?

So like that one's a little hard to tell. Yeah. And then the other thing you raise it's interesting

in these is, you know, communication styles, right? Like we are voter, what are Democratic voters looking for because a lot of these are about we're asking ourselves these questions that who's the best person, that was what was intimate Texas, who's the best person to flip a red say, who's the best person to be Susan Collins, who's the best person to make sure that we keep Michigan and they're making, you know, people are Democratic primary voters are projecting what they think general election

voters will think. And the communication stuff comes into play with that as well. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of communication stuff, I want to talk a little bit about the messaging. On Friday's podcast, I talked to Julianne Strat, who's the lieutenant governor of Illinois, who just became the nominee to replace Dick Durbin in the Senate in Illinois. Yeah, she was going to be, she would not, when I talked to her, she was being very close to Senator. Yes. Yes. I kept saying

when I see him in the Senate, she kept wanting to point out to me that she saw an election ago, they were just what hurt she's supposed to say that, but of course, but we can say to her, if she's not in the Senate, things have gone horribly horribly wrong for the Democrats. It's bad. Very bad. We started from scratch. And that was a primary that didn't get its kind of attention. It did also, like Texas didn't fit exactly into the Senate. Yeah.

Yeah. Because you had two younger candidates, both relatively establishment figures, although there were some ideological differences. But one interesting thing with that race is that Julianne Strat and Rand, what I think might end up being the most interesting ad of the cycle, I'm going to play that ad for you right now. Oh, yeah, foot Trump, totally aren't it. Fuck Trump, vote Julianne. Fuck Trump, vote Julianne. They said it not me. I'm

Julianne Stratten and I'm proud to have lived my whole life on the south side of Chicago. I'm not scared of a want to be dictator. I'm running for Senate to stand up to Donald Trump. I'll abolish ICE and hold Trump accountable for the crimes he's committed, just like they said.

“Fuck Trump, fuck Trump, fuck Trump, vote Julianne. That's why I proved this message.”

For those who are not not watching on YouTube, the last Fuck Trump comes from Senator Tammy Duckworth. Yeah. And the last vote Julianne comes from Governor J.B. Prescott, Mayor Dorses to his lieutenant governor. What do you think of the ad? I mean, I'm like, get it. Girl, when I can't be heard of me in the Senate, which she will be. But the thing is that that message in a primary, it was an exactly,

Jasmine Crockett, who's also an incredibly talented politician. But there was stylistically, Jasmine Crockett is like one of the most fierce call-out Trump politicians. That's kind of her aura is Fuck Trump. Yeah, her aura is Fuck Trump, right? And so that now there's so many factors in every race, of course. But so that won't work everywhere. The fact that it worked in an Illinois primary, maybe not surprising. I mean, they have dealt with

ice over taking their city. They've dealt with Donald Trump targeting Illinois because of J.B. Pritzker. So it works there. But I don't think that works in Michigan, Texas. And I mean, you know, a bunch of other states. Yeah, a good friend of ours who lives in Illinois,

and is a big Julianne Stratton fan texted me the ad, but a first came out to get a personal

“political like for three-act take on it. Yeah. And I think this person was uncomfortable with the”

ad. Like, was this too far? Was it? You know, and I think if you were, we're of a certain era of politics where the idea that you would say Fuck someone in an ad seems crazy. But like my take on the ad was, and it was bleeped on broadcast television. Yes, yes. But that's not where most people get their information anymore. So a lot of people saw it as just heard the Fuck Trump. And my take on that ad is that's the, that is the true belief of most democratic primary voters

is Fuck Trump. And they want to, and they're mad. They're not enough Democrats will say, yeah, either in their words or their actions. And it was like, and this is what, Luciana Cameron Stratton said to me was, it was a moment where she broke through. She was being massively outspent. People were not paying a ton of attention to the primary. So all of a sudden people

It's like Fuck Trump, Fuck Trump. Oh, also, I'm Julianna Stratton from South South Chicago,

I want to abolish I, so I'm going to do these things. And then it shows popular governor, Jimmy Pritzler. I don't like the Trump lady. Yeah. Yeah. Being the Fuck Trump lady helps. And in Illinois, there's no consequences for doing that because she's going to win the general election. No. Yeah. If Jasmine Crockett or, you know, Mallory McMurro or Janet Mills, won a primary on a Fuck Trump, maybe that would work in Maine, but on a Fuck Trump message in a,

in a purple or red state, maybe there's consequences for that. I don't know, but

“the lesson to me from it is you have to get your message heard and you have to be willing to”

break with old ways of doing politics to get your message heard and take some risks. Because she was, she was trailing by a lot at the time. So it's like, what, what do you have to list? No. Yeah. I mean, and this is going to be, well, and it'll be very interesting to see, and we still have some time to go, but not that long before there's a presidential primary.

And it's like, people who just want to hang in there, right? And raise enough money in the first

or second quarter. What do they have to do? Is it, is it a Fuck Trump message to hang in there? That's, that is the, I mean, can you imagine what the Democratic presidential primary is going to be like in that situation? Like, I was even thinking back to the O for primary. But you worked on for John Kerry. Yeah. But I just remember there was like this bidding war of like people saying Bush was the worst president ever and people kept saying it like in stronger language.

I think maybe at some point Dick Gaphart may have sworn, but like this time it's going to be like someone will say Fuck Trump or something like mother fuck Trump. I'm just like mother fuck Trump and everyone he's ever been with is just going to get like up and up and up and up. It's going to be crazy. I know exactly because there's going to be a tier of people who could be great presidents, but aren't as well known. Can't raise as much money and are going to

have to find a way to break through. Do you worry as we look at the primary that we, that there's this incentive, which is Fuck Trump, like, and I don't mean just like Trump is bad, but like a little message of the equivalent of this is like Fuck Trump is a great way to get attention and raise money. And maybe even get some support in a Democratic primary, but and so you have the short-term incentive to do those things. But it has potentially long-term consequences,

both for party branding and the general election for whoever wins an nomination. Yeah, I mean it's like Fuck Trump end, right? So it's a little and the challenge and we're all guilty of this is like you're going to cover the Fuck Trump ad, right? So there's a responsibility that lays everywhere to kind of cover things and have conversations about things that go

“beyond that. I think I'm interested to see and I got it, it's like not in front of me right now.”

You probably are more familiar with the timeline of one. We'll know this. Like what the order of states is, the primary states and how people will have to campaign because the other thing that I think is going to be a challenge that is kind of comes in partnership with the Fuck Trump type of ads is if there are a lot of states where it's really like a money and media-driven campaign and you're not really require. I mean you know a lot of caucuses have been, they've done away with them for

good reason. But like where people can really have to campaign and have those conversations. I don't know that we know the answer to that yet. So that's a me as an important question too because I think that's part of what makes people stronger. Yeah, we don't know the calendar yet. And I think they have to figure it up, piss away the end of this year. But it's almost certainly going to be a more expensive endeavor that's ever been before because you're going to have

larger, some larger states at the front. Yeah. I will not be at the front. I think if Hampshire

“still will be in some role, but we don't go to that for sure. But I think it's Michigan, Georgia,”

I can be, I'm not doing it. Oh, Western State, yeah. Didn't have that. Nevada, we're coming out of yeah. Some of these, live Nevada, not that expensive, smaller at least 2 media months. But you're going to have some bigger states. I would knew Hampshire South Carolina was a pretty cheap, relatively speaking in terms of like media spend. But then also the now you're going to spend less money on linear TV. But yeah, your point is it's going to be harder for under this new

balance. It'd be harder for someone with little money to break out and be able to like people to judge did in 2000 and 20. Yeah. So I think that like if that will push people down that path.

The other thing that I think is it's also we just don't know how big like I guess Trump will never

go away. Right. He's always going to be a dominant part of the conversation. I mean, I think he will go away from the White House is before people panic and start throwing their phones at the ocean. But I think he will, I think he will, I think he will be. I think he will be real, elected to a third firm and a little bit, but. But I do think, by the time we get to the general election in 2028, Trump's going to feel a little bit like to a Chevy Bush, which is, yeah,

what's like the past, right? Are you turning the page on the past and there'll be lots of ads of

a question 2008, but it's going to feel old. You can kind of feel it happening right now before us,

like people are like, oh, they're over it. You know, I mean, and maybe this is because I got to know you best when we were working for the Hopi Changey guy, but like I also think politics often happens in cycles, right? And there's a question of, is it, is fuck Trump enough, right? Or people going to want to feel, and I think I'm a believer in this, maybe as an optimist, that there are part of a more positive movement, like something that, not that you can't do both, you can,

“but you have to consciously do both, right? Where there's a vision for the future and also something”

that you're excited to do with your neighbor and not like, that's uplifting, right? And not just like, you know, negative downtrodden, doom scrolling. I, I believe, like once again, we are, we have shared the same bias here of being people who truly learned about politics from Barack Obama. Yeah, but I do believe to the core of my soul that the best Democratic candidate in 2028 is going to be someone who seems both tough enough to fight for people and fight against a

broken system and to hold the people who explored that system under Trump to account for their crimes, but also is appealing to something bigger and better. The idea that we as a country are better than what we have had for the last 15 years of Donald Trump at that point, right? And, and that that's possible. I mean, the last thing is possible. It's not, it's, it's a more hardened version of Obama in a way for sure. You've been through a lot in that time, but there is

that we are that we are better than this, like counterproductive, non,

never ending division in this country that we're seeing from, in our politics, in our media,

in social media, there's something better than this and that we are better in this is a country and that people will want that I do truly believe that if we survive long enough to get there as a nation, but like, and who that candidate is, great question, does that candidate exist? I don't know. They'll have to prove themselves, but I think that's where we have to get to.

“And you may have to say, you should say, "Fuck Trump along the way," and you shouldn't hesitate”

to say that, but it's got to be something bigger than that. Don't edit yourself. Just have more to say. I think it's sort of the answer to that. You know, I think the other thing I've thought about a little bit with this, who knows this 20, 28 field in Hullby and I'll be interesting to watch because everyone is the answer. Everyone, everyone, you're mother. All of it is, you know, actually Tele Rico said something about this. That reminded me of this. One of the things about Obama

that I think was under value. And again, I know we're biased here, but that he wasn't afraid to piss some people off, including from within his own party. And not in a way that's like, let's

piss somebody off tomorrow, but in a way that was sometimes essential because you weren't

beholden to like keeping everybody happy at all times, right? And I think Tele Rico said something about immigration in this regard and people can agree or disagree, but I think that's an interesting

“thing. You have to have a very tough skin to run for president and to be president. And that is”

one of the things I think will be interesting to watch and see as this starts happening next year. That's going to be, it's going to be fascinating. Gen Socky. On my own, our show first and then their show or both. Yes, that's that, that the, we see the early states you have to win, we mean Gen Show and Potset of America. Correct, that's it, really. You know, it was great talking to you as always. Great talking to you as always. Thank you for doing this. And we talked to you again soon.

Good to see you. That's our show. Thank you to Gen Socky for joining us. Love it, Tommy and John, we back in your feed on Tuesday by everyone. If you want to listen to Potset of America, add free and get access to exclusive podcasts go to cricket.com/friends to subscribe on the supercast, sub-stack, YouTube or Apple podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review that helps boost this episode and everything we do here at cricket. Potset of America is a

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