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Welcome to Pods Av America, I am Alex Wagner.

This week I sat down with journalists and newfound target of the Trump administration, Don Lemon. To talk about the federal charges, the Department of Justice brought against him after covering an ICE protest at a Minnesota church. We talked about what those attacks on the free press mean for this political moment, and how is moved from mainstream journalism at a major network to independent journalism on

his own platform has changed how he does the news, a move I am also a little bit familiar with.

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This week I spoke to Stephanie Viorial, who's husband has been detained despite the fact that he is a doctor recipient, and I also got into it with the Bullworks Jonathan V last. It is a good, good, good episode. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, thank you in advance. So let's get into it.

Here is Don Lemon. I got to say, I am so excited to talk to Don Lemon. I just read the name, Don Lemon, in the headlines, and follow the national news about Don Lemon. But here we have the man in the flesh, well, not quite in the flesh, but on the internet

flesh. It's great to see you, man. It's good to see you as well. Can I say something and unsolicited by Alex Wagner? I think that you're one of the best reporters in the business, and I loved your work on

the circus. I just think that when I don't know if you remember, we did an interview a while back when you were on the circus. And it was just I loved sitting down and talking to you guys. But I mean, yes, you know, I love your work on MS now, and look, I get you.

I see you, I get you because, as they say, the networks give it and the networks take it away. They sure do, don't they? You just keep moving, reinventing yourself like a new old pro in a survivor. So can I?

The hustle. Thank you, my friend. That means a lot coming from you. You know, I mean, we're, we're going to get to all that, actually. I'm thrilled to take.

I'm excited to talk about our new tomorrows, our new reality, so these great adventures we find ourselves in. Tomorrow is involving more court time, I would say in the mind, but I look forward to the day when I am unjustly charged with something. We're going to get to that moment.

I mean, I will say just big picture not, like in these, you know, in the normal times, the full frontal assault on the press, the authoritarianism that is so clearly undisplay where our president is, you know, effectively trashing the constitution, these easing the full force of the government against any critics, whether they are in the media or otherwise, he's trying to arrest people who he doesn't who don't agree with him or her

stand in his way. That would be the headline story, and yet it's not, I mean, there's so much incoming. I wonder as you look out on the landscape, and you do this awesome reporting out there in the world, what do you think is the biggest story of right now?

“What do you, is the most important thing that's happening in all this swirl?”

Well, that is a very good question, because I think all of it is, you know, it really is good.

I think the first amendment, the freedom of the press and the war go together, especially if you look at what's happening and over at the Pentagon, if you look at what's happening with the Department of Defense, excuse me, Department of War, where they are restricting reporters, making them sign agreements that they can, you know, we don't do that. That's one of the reasons that we're in Iran, right, is because they have state-run media

and people don't have freedoms and they shoot protesters and whatever, and we're doing similar things here.

“So I think that altogether, the war and the assault on the press, because they don't want”

people reporting accuracy and what's really happening with the war. I hear Pete Hexat that almost every update that he gives about the war that he says, and this is how you should be reporting it.

And then that has seeped into Donald Trump saying the very same thing, you never know

that when, you know, if you listen to the fake news, right? And so I believe his advisors are only giving him the information that makes the war look positive. So when he looks at the news, the press, which is supposed to be free and he sees someone of a more balanced picture of what's actually happening, it doesn't compute with him because

he's like, what is going on? This is not what my advisors are telling me. We're doing great. Look at how much we bond. So I think those are the two things.

And I am surprised that it is not one of the leading stories every day, the assault on the press. And my arrest is way bigger than me because if they're coming for me, this independent person, they're coming for you, but they've already neutered the corporate media.

“So I think I'm surprised that it's not out there.”

I'm surprised that it's not a bigger headline because it affects everyone. The press, whether you're in streaming, whether you're print, whether you're a broadcast journalist, whether you're magazines, even publishing. And so if they can tell you what you can write, what you can't write, where you can report,

how you can report it, then what's the purpose of the first amendment freedom of the

press. Then what is it? It also just challenges the basic idea of shared reality. And facts, right? I mean, if you no longer have, if you refuse to recognize a truth that's inconvenient, then

what is a truth matter? Ever. I mean, it's just information that's weaponized for personal or partisan gain. And that's not a world. I mean, that makes living in a world to say nothing, of living in a democracy pretty complicated.

I wonder if, you know, like you mentioned, both the direct targeting of you, which is I totally agree bigger than you. It's meant to send a chill down the spine of any journalist to like the FCC chair coming out and threatening to revoke a broadcasting license. If the coverage of the Iran war is named not deemed satisfactory by this administration,

“are you at all surprised by how far Trump is taking it?”

I'm surprised at how far we have allowed him to take, because, you know, the folks who are on, you know, on the Republican side, the more conservative side, love to talk about free speech, absolutism. And this is where about free speech, and, you know, we can't cancel everybody. We want to say the R word, right?

Comedians should be given a wide birth to be able to do whatever they want and be funny or whatever they get upset with a comedian, you know, makes fun of someone, you know, in their, you know, that's in their tribe, so to speak. So I, I am surprised to hear those people are now, we're, we're the free speech, absolute is now.

They're, they're not anywhere, they're, I mean, they're about free speech. It was, thank you. Right? So I'm surprised at how far he has been able to, far, how far we have allowed him to be able to do it.

And, and, look, this is the, if you really believe in the constitution, Alex, if you really believe in the Bill of Rights, and you really believe in freedom of speech, if you're a mature person, you understand the importance of the press. And whether you agree with them or not, the reason that this country has been able to, we've been able to get as far as we have with this experiment is, in large part, because

of the first amendment, people write things about me all the time that I don't like. And, but I would fight for their ability, and they're right to be able to say it. Like there was a profile of me that came out in the New York Times, overall positive. Everything in there did what did I like, did I think there was some things or out of context, I got something?

Sure, but overall, I was like, okay, it's fine.

And that's, it's out there, enjoy it, and I never, I didn't even think twice about it.

For me, I was like, oh, that's great. I got a big thing in the New York Times, whatever, you're like some of that. I thought it was a great thing. Yeah. Yeah, I thought it was great.

And I don't like it when they're too effusive. Like they're doing a glowing profile, I mean, it doesn't really mean anything.

That's good, because it makes you think. So Donald Trump is not a mature person. He doesn't believe in the first amendment in the constitution, because if he did, then

he would not be so critical to press, and he wouldn't try to make us have state-run media.

Well, it's the essential notion of a presidency, is you want to be aware of all sides of a debate, even if you don't agree with it.

“And like the notion of a team of rivals extends to every part of the democracy, right?”

Right. We're a two-party democracy. We're going to be a push-and-pull. It's never going to be perfect, but it's not about annihilating one side and declaring victory. You've had, like, just this extraordinary year, and it's only, it's only March.

My God. I thought you were going to say it, it's only going to get worse, but it didn't do anything. No.

I mean, it could have probably well for all of us, but especially you don't know, I'm kidding.

I, let's talk about what happened in Minnesota in January. You went out there. I went out there after you, but I remember thinking, like, oh boy, everybody who went out in Minnesota after seeing what happened to you every journalist, I think, was way more cautious, way more concerned about where they were, how they were doing, not because you

had done something necessarily wrong, but because of what the administration did. So let's, let's talk about your live streaming, a protest inside a church. And so what were you hoping to cover and sort of how did that all come about for people? Well, as you know, this, this is still going on. So what I will say is that I went there, there's no conspiracy, which is what I'm, there's

no conspiring a protest as a protest or a journalist as a journalist. I didn't like, I didn't even know where the, they were going to go. I didn't know until, you know, we got there and like, oh, this is where we are.

“But I went there with the intention to do journalism, and that's what I did.”

And so as Steve Schmidt said about what's his name, John Miller, who, you know, now works for CNN and work for the NYPD for a long time and work with, with, you know, national law enforcement for a long time and was a journalist and he said, when, when John Miller went into the cave with Osama bin Laden, he did not become a terrorist. He was reporting on someone who was a terrorist and that, and, and he also knew that he was

going into a cave and they didn't, I don't, I don't think they had to tell, you know, authorities or whatever. But I'm just saying, just because I was in a church with protesters does not make me a protester. And so, and it's just because you don't, you, you made disagree with questioning people.

It doesn't make me less of a journalist that you disagree with my questions. That's kind of what the whole thing is about. So that was my intention. And I wasn't even going to go there. I just happened to be going to Chicago to host the Martin Luther King day breakfast

for the Reverend Jesse Jackson's Rainbow Push Coalition.

“And I was talking to my husband because, you know, maybe you should just take a stop and”

I said, yeah, maybe I should go there. And just go, I was only there for like six hours seven, and I didn't even that long, maybe six, maybe seven hours. It was extended because the flights were late, you know, snowy and all that. But that was it.

I didn't even know the people who were part of the protests that had been on my show like

a Thursday before, and, but I had never, didn't know them personally, had never met them

in person. Very well. I just want to be in a case with them besides time on the show. I mean, even if you did know them, and even if people were offended by your questions, that doesn't make you any less of a journalist, you know what I mean, I just, in the defense

of that, like, I know plenty of people that I interview, and that still makes it journalism, that does not disqualify it from being journalism. And I would know in that live stream, you recognize that there are two sides here, and at one point you're like, maybe they could get together and talk and figure this whole thing out.

I mean, it was like the idea that this was somehow that you were inciting some sort of offensive or a wounding engagement that caused suffering and harm on, is like, I don't know. I just as a layperson that watched the journalism that you did. It all seems quite cocked up, and I, and I, I don't know the degree that you can tell me about this, but we can almost cut it out and post if you can't.

Like, the case that's being brought against you is like, I mean, ironic is not the right word to use. I think it's like designed to be offensive, and it is deeply reflective of a department of justice that likes to use race in a pernicious and damaging way. They are charging you with a law from 1871 called the Clue Clux Clan Act, and that historically

Now it's being used against you, a person of color, alleging you were part of a conspiracy

to intimidate churchgoers. As one of the countries, most prominent black journalists do you think that this is a, this is a sort of deliberate play here? Yeah. Look at the people who were arrested, they're black journalists, there's a deliberate play.

Yes, of course it is. I mean, everything is calculated with this administration, and anyone who is writing or prosecuting this, I feel that they should be embarrassed, especially if they are any sort of person of color or a woman in minority who's used to being discriminated against.

“But I think about that absolutely, I thought about that, that's just the symbolism of it,”

and especially considering the history of this country, one of the biggest stains on this country is slavery. And then from slavery, Jim Crow, and everything is not, you know, just because something is black doesn't mean the other is white, everything is not equal in this country. There were people who are part of a culture or a part of an ethnicity in this country that

have not been treated fairly for the, for longer than this, the majority of the time that they, that they are we have been in this country. And so, yeah, I think it's designed that way. Yeah, and it is, it is pernicious, but I also believe that there is a reason that it happened to me is to show, I believe, the hypocrisy of this, and the pernicious nature of it will

be illuminated because it's me. And so at the end of the day, I do believe that I'll come out on the right side of this.

“And when that happens, I think people will, you know, ultimately realize, and I think”

there are going to be a lot of people who are embarrassed. And, you know, so I did, I thought about that as I was sitting in a holding cell, about people just because they don't like what you're saying or reporting or who you are that they can take your freedom away, that's huge, huge. And I do think that the people who are doing it just suffer some consequences, I think

that they, you know, there is a malicious intent in nature of what they're doing. It's malevolent, it's malicious, it's evil. I would stick it to you, and racist, and it's racist, and it's racist, and it's racist.

I was going to say, I think this is, that's the first part, I should have said.

This is a really kind, it's part of a suite of actions from this administration assisted by the Supreme Court to rent, to first all whitewash America's racist history and the legacy of slavery, by saying that what we're, all of the civil rights protections that we have in place are effectively reverse racism against white people and to weaponize the legacy of King, to weaponize things like the Ku Klux Klan Act against people of color

“and therefore render the idea of disparity and institutional racism sort of moot, right?”

Like everyone's, no one's a racist, everyone's a racist, white people are being discriminated against and therefore any protections that exist in our society should be done away with because it's all kind of meaningless. I think that's the kind of natural endpoint is to effectively turn back the clock and get rid of all the gains made on race and in civil rights in the last, I'd say, 100 years, like

I really think and using you as a kind of example of like, oh yeah, see, like this is we need to protect the country white, white, church congregants need to be protected from the black menace, like don't you talk, don't add us about the Klan and like all the black people suffer, look what's happening to white people with these black people storming their churches.

Do you know what I mean? I feel like it's a way of making a white people feel better about the history they have in the United States of America, but also rendering that history, the real history of America less potent, less malignant, and that's fucked up.

Well, first thing I'll say is, I'll let you say that, I'll let you say that because I'm saying

I think I think it's a very cogent and articulate argument and logical. I believe, not that I'm correcting you, there's no such, well there is a such a thing as reverse racism, reverse racism would be equality, its racism, racism is racism is racism, no matter if you're doing it against an Asian person, a black person, a white person, whatever it is.

really, what does that actually mean?

And if you actually think about it, as you're talking about black people in America, if you say something is reverse, that means that there is racism for the most part, which is sort of what the definition of what racism is against black people in America. And so, I think that they should be keen, you understand what I'm saying, they should be keenly.

Yes, it's an acknowledgement, and here and in it is discrimination against people of color. But it's a trick, it's a trick for power and for political expedience. And so what they're doing is tricking people into being agreed that if you are not doing well, let's just say that you live in a coal mining community or you live in some community, that is suffering.

“Rather than realizing that you need to be retrained, you gotta do, you know, these things”

happen, you know, department stores used to be a big thing, now people are buying online,

you know what I'm saying? Or coal used to be a big thing, and now it's all about technology and unless they start making cell phones out of coal, then, you know, it's going to diminish. And so, or, and if you're not doing as well as you think you should, because, and you see minorities and women who are gaining agency in society, they have really good jobs, they have

positions of power, somehow, as a white person, especially a white man, that person must be taking something away from you, and not that you are maybe not qualified for the position, maybe you don't have enough, get up and go, as they say, you're not motivated enough, you're not ambitious enough, and maybe it's just that again, you're just not as qualified for the position as the other person, and so, you know, I think that's a trick to make you

vote for them. Donald Trump is very good, and especially this MAGA, very good at making people feel aggrieved, and that agreed that that and fear are great motivators and makes people sit in front of the television all day and watch Fox News and go, yeah, that's right and good, but I had reversed there discriminating against white people, and if you ask them really, if you think

“that white people are being discriminated against, ask them, would you change positions?”

Would you be a black man in this society? Would you be a black gay man in this society? Would you be a woman or a black woman in this society? Most of them will go, well, I all know, because I mean, quite frankly, white people and white males, I think have it pretty good, pretty good. Yeah, I guess to say a lot of white male Trump supporters, not that

interested in being people of color, to say nothing of the power grid, but just yeah, but that doesn't mean that there aren't poor white Americans at white Americans struggling. I'm talking, I'm generalizing overall. Right. Well, I think that's part of it, too, is that it's the zero sum race game. And all of this I will just say is explored so brilliantly by my friend Heather McGee in her book The Some of Us, which is like the idea of that someone else is doing better, that

means you're doing worse. And in fact, like in the example she uses is during segregation, in lieu of having black kids and white kids swim at the swimming pool together, some communities

shut down the pool entirely. And that's basically what we're doing to our society, rather than

saying like we're we're better together, they're some for all, we're like, let's just shut the whole thing down so that we don't have to deal with each other. That just so happens and leaned out of the screen for a little bit because I wanted to pick this up. I did this very similar to what you just said. I wrote about this and during George Floyd in the member of the summer of unrest, this is the fire, what I say to my friends about racism and what I

tell meaning mostly my white friends about racism. And it debuted at number one in the New York Times and it was really great. And because, well, I'm not that I just think there was a right time for it, but there's also explanations in there about what you just said and how they are able to co-opt people, almost in a like way to believing that if those people, things would be better if we just stopped talking about racism. If we just sort of ignored about slavery, if these people could just

“pick themselves up by their bootstraps. Have you ever tried to pick yourself up with bootstraps?”

And especially if you don't have any boots, how you do it? Getting to some real boots and try to try to lift yourself up and see if you can do it, but I'm just, you know, I know it's a term, but it's not a real thing. And you know, so I think we need to like really sit down and talk about and come to an understanding about what this country really is, which is, I don't think that we are going to do it as long as there is a Trump administration in place, as long as Magga

and Christian nationalism are a front and center in this country. Well, yeah, I would say

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taxes and fees extra, C-Mint Mobile for details. It is worth talking about like after your arrest the White House tweeted out when life gives you lemons with a chain emoji. Like the White House cheering on the arrest of a journalist, a black journalist with slavery chains. I mean, did you, first of all, ever, you know, you've been in the crosshairs of this administration before, right? Like you know what it's like to be a journalist

at C&N to have a big platform. But did you, what did that moment mean to you when when that tweet went out? If you, if you really want to, I'm not surprised and look, I'm a big boy and what I, I just kind of shook my head, Alex, like, you know, but I only think that that made them look bad.

“I think that I do, I do believe. I thought that they, that was sort of a test to see how that”

went over and I don't think it played well in the public and I think that they after that they quickly realized it and they, you know, they, they tried to squash it. They didn't go as far as they could have with it. And I do think that they underestimated where the public sentiment would be in this particular thing, even conservative saying, okay, guys, this is way too far because what happens if they're democratic administration and they start doing this to us, then we're in trouble.

So, you know, I looked at it and I was like, okay, whatever, I'm not surprised, you know, is it disgusting and racist and inhumane and bigoted and all of the things absolutely? But I'm not going to, I don't sit there and dwell on it because I have a great legal council and all of the things that they have done will pay off in court. Can I talk about this? Yeah. Yeah, because I know with your lawyers and again, if you can't

presented to the grand jury in order to get the indictment because they're saying, we don't really

“trust whatever facts the government gave to the grand jury. Like they have a history of, what is it?”

A, your lawyers are pointing to what they call a small but growing body of case law involving the government engaging in highly unusual conduct, simultaneous to political pressure to bring charges and misstatements of the law at the highest levels of government. I mean, they see this persecution effectively and they, they want to see what the government cases for all of this because they look at what's happening to you. I know James Kome is another person sighted as an example of this

government of this unhighly unusual government contact with Tisha James. Tish James, I mean, can you talk more about that or how optimistic you are that you're going to get more insight into the justification, the federal government is using to charge you criminally? Well, I don't know what's going to happen in that ruling because that, and then this is all public knowledge. This is all

“been in the public legally so I can't talk about it. So that's what my attorneys filed and they”

believe that that will be illuminating and obviously if they file that, they believe that there is something in there that may show the abnormal teas. Is that right? The abnormal teas, abnormal teas? Are the, yeah, are the anomalies or whatever, and there, you know, prosecution of me. This went to three, it went to a magistrate judge and you just have to the magistrate judge just like, okay, well, that's it. That wouldn't do it. Then they went to someone else and I think

that either three, and then he went to someone else. I think it was like three different tries or two or three different tries and everyone said, no, we're not doing this. And then they took it to a grand jury. And you know, and they say, Green, you can indict a ham sandwich with a grand jury or whatever. You're talking about the government, run various flag polls, yeah. Yeah, various flag polls until they found something. And I wasn't surprised. I knew that they would try to do it because they just

couldn't be embarrassed. So right now, I feel that they're just prolonging their embarrassment.

“So, you know, we'll see how the judge rules. And if there's something in there, then I think that's”

going to be problematic really for the government. And if there's nothing in there, if the judge or, you know, if it is deemed that there's nothing in there that it wasn't abnormal, then so be it, but still, I still think that it's at the end of the day, it's going to be, I'm going to, you know, end up on top. I'm going to end up the winner in this. I think maybe you already have done in a way. That's, I've heard that. Why do you say that? I just feel like, first of all, I mean,

I know it's been difficult, and I want to kind of talk a little bit about their rest part, but it is brought to the fore in such a concrete way, the way this administration is going after people, the inherent racism of its maneuvering. It's given you an extraordinary plot. People really paying attention to what's happened to you, what's happening to you, and I'm not just saying

that from like a business level, but I just mean, you know, your voice is essential right now. Your

struggle is, I'm not going to say universal, but it's much bigger than you. I mean, and it, and it's really crystallizes the essence of this administration, which is all of its fascistic impulses, it's the authoritarianism that is, you know, the order of the day. I mean, in that way, it has been a victory for people who've had a hard time really pinpointing the malignant nature of what's happening right now, although, of course, you're still facing trial. So, let's talk a little bit

about what's happened to you in the sort of, first of all, were you freaked out by the fact that, you know, you're an independent journalist, and there is some safety, like being part as someone who used to work at MSNBC now MSNow. There is some safety, you know, there's like a whole bunch of lawyers that work for safety. They just say, we'll take, the lawyers will take care of this, and you just say, okay, you show up for whatever it is, and exactly. And you didn't have that, right? Like,

you do have incredible representation, but were you scared initially? About, like, before or after,

or like, as it's happening, you're like, oh, they're gonna, I mean, this, this, they charge you while you're in Beverly Hills, I think, right? And like, you will, maybe you knew this was coming because Trump was telegraphing all of it. But like, when it first happens, or you're like, oh, God, like, I got it. I'm on my own here. No, Alex, I am, um, as Dr. King says, I'm not fearing any man. I don't fear that kind of thing. I am lucky, unfortunately, enough to have some agency and some

and the ability to be able to fight this. And there are people who cannot, there are people who cannot pick up the phone and call Abbie Lowell and say, will you represent me? And so for those people,

the folks who are able to do this like myself. And, and there's a greater understanding of what

“people, some people cannot do this because I know it's a very expensive process. It's a very”

taxing process. Um, and so people are all the time, even by this government, maybe they don't have the resources to be able to do it. But I'm very fortunate somewhat. It's really, I mean, that doesn't mean that, you know, I can afford to go the distance with the government. But we'll see, um, was I angry? I was I scared? No, I wasn't afraid. I was, uh, the only time I was a little bit startled when they grabbed me in the elevator, because I thought I was being mugged. This is when they

first started our target. Yeah. When they, when they, when they finally did, now before that, they were saying that they were going to do it. Yeah. Um, and, um, I'll let you, I'll give you something that nobody else knows. Is that before that, there were people who were parked outside of our

home in New York City and would follow us when we got into the car. And I have never said that to anyone.

And I don't know who they were. But usually people don't follow me. A, you know, a group of cars don't follow me when I'm going to eat dinner with my friends or when I call an Uber or whatever. And so that was a little bit unnerving and like the, the nerve, like the nerve. Even if you, if you have, if you have not gotten, um, permission from a judge or a court to be able to

“detain me, then you shouldn't be able to follow me. You know what I'm saying? You should not be able”

to follow me around. So that was a little, you know, innocent until proven guilty. And then once that happens, okay, let's do it. So it was some, there was, there was frustration in that, um, and when I said it was a little startling, but there was some frustration in that, this would, this was all so unnecessary. Because the reason I wasn't afraid is because I have people who are in the business and they're saying, they said to me, we're hearing your name a lot, you know, they're speaking,

you know, from folks who are in power. So maybe it's time for you to get a war room and maybe you should reach out for some representation. And I did that. So I thought like, okay, if this does happen, then, um, I, you know, I'll be taking care of to the extent that I can be taking care of. But it was also unnecessary. It was a waste of resources, a waste of tax dollars,

because the first thing my attorney did was send them a letter saying, if you were a series about this,

then let us know, let's get this process started. He will self-report and turn himself in. Nothing. Instead, whatever, 20, 25, whatever, people show up. And it's like, why? If you had just called me and said, I would say, okay, I'm jumping in a taxi. We're, give me the address. I'm going to come down. But it's a waste of tax dollars. They did it because they want to, you to be afraid, and because they want to embarrass you. I was neither embarrassed nor was I afraid.

And on the other side, I realized once I come out of this, I have a story to tell and I have a platform, whether people are on my side or not, whether I have public support or not, I'm going to fight this to the end and I'm doing it in the courtroom and I'm going to stand up to you and I'm not going to be afraid. And I'm not going to stop doing what I do because I'm a citizen of this country.

And I have a first amendment right, not only for freedom of speech, but for freedom of the press.

And if there's anyone who is deserving of all the rights and privileges that go along with this, right, if there's anyone, there's is someone who whose ancestors came here involuntarily. Yeah. And who has faced discrimination and racism and whose ancestors were came over and changed and and so I believe it's me. I believe it's people like me. And for those

“people, that's why I'm standing up. They're not going to silence me. I'm not going to be afraid. No matter”

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“What's really happening? What can we do about it? And how do we keep going together?”

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It was never in question whether Don Lemon was a shrinking violet, right? Like, that's never been

your brand, right? But I kind of wonder, you know, you and I have both made the move from a establishment media to independent media, right? Me from MS now, you from CNN, we won't go into the circumstances of the superstatures. You're still there, though. You still have a big idea. Yes, I go and hang out with my buds on set sometimes. But, you know, I'm not working, that's not my home anymore. And CNN isn't in your home and you have built a new home for yourself. And an extraordinary

one at that. I wonder, you know, how that transition has changed your approach to journalism. And like, the way, first of all, let's just say, right up front, it is a hustle, right? Like, it is full on. We're both working real hard. You're working harder than I am. But like, do you think that, you know, being out there, being, you know, who you are in this new media landscape changed you and made you more tenacious, and especially moments like, you know,

when the Trump administration's coming after you? Yes. Yes. Now, I always felt, you know, I've

always been tenacious. Yes. But I also think, and I don't want to, I don't want people to think that I'm criticizing, I'm not. But I think that it needs to be more people,

“like me. And even if you are afraid, you need to fight through that fear and stand up for”

the press, stand up as a journalist. I believe that the, the folks who are in the White House press corps need to stand up more. They need to do what Richard Angle did with Benjamin Netanyahu the other day when they killed, you know, his mic when they muted his mic. They need to continue to ask the question even as Caroline Levitt is calling on another reporter. Wait a minute, this is certain, right? They need to continue to ask the question when Donald Trump is being rude,

and when Donald Trump calls someone a piggy, everyone in that press corps in the plane should, should say something. Yeah. And if, and not, not ask the next question, they would say, my colleague who you call a piggy, which is, you know, the president of the United States, I'm surprised, sir, that this actually came out of your mouth. My question is her question. So, I have, so I believe that people should be more tenacious. I believe that journalists,

and I've always believed this. Maybe I'm naive. They're like doctors and lawyers. Do no harm.

And the way to do no harm to the public is to fight for, um, fight to have them educated,

“to be informed, and to stand up to power. And that's what we're supposed to do. So I think every”

journalist in this time should be doing that, and even the journalists who are in corporate media. And I know it's, I know you're worried about, you know, you got to pay for your kids, pride at school. You got to do all these things. I get it. But I think if more people stood up to the corporation, to the conglomerates, to the powers that be, to the gatekeepers, I think we would be in a better place right now. And especially the people, even more so than the

the people who are signing them to these positions, who are putting them on the anchor desks,

who are deciding who gets to be on what program. They should be standing up to the powers that

“be as well, because that's what journalism we're supposed to do without fear of favor. We're supposed”

to do it. We're supposed to hold power to account. Otherwise, then you get a dictatorship or an authoritarianism. So I've been surprised by, and especially my exit from CNN, I was surprised by how many people lacked the courage to be able to say the right things and do the right thing. And how many people were just wanted to survive. And if you're a journalist, you can't just want to survive. You have to, you have to want to protect the Constitution, and you work for the American

people, not for the government, and actually really not for the company. You work for the American people. I feel like it's like your essence is in full flour. Like you were destined for this, like you're out there. You're out there. You're out there. I mean, you're out there. I mean, you're out there. I mean, you're out there. Do you think so? Not, though, because I know I'm naive. I think what the moment demands. I mean, but the other thing, the thing that I think people,

you know, if you, if you are a lemon head, you know this. But like one of the things that really does set you apart is you're out there talking to people on the streets. You're like moving around.

At the time, after this, I'm going. Which is, why do you, first of all, as someone who loves

field reporting, I think it's like the essence of journalism, and we've completely lost it in,

“in mainstream institutional media. Why did you decide to do that? Why was that important to you?”

Because I noticed that there was a disconnect between what I was hearing, you know, on sort of the mainstream. I hate that term mainstream media. But that's what is, between what I was hearing, and I also know, when I, when I did, what the reason that I became an independent journalist is because, you know, I could have done something else or not done anything at all. But the reason I took the path that I'm taking is because I wanted to be closer to the ground. I wanted to be out there

with people. And during the 2024 election, when I started just going out doing man in the street interviews, which, you know, I think are really important because most interviews are managed. If you go to a breaking news, and you're talking to people that were there for the breaking news, that's man on the street, right? And that's actual, that's journalism. And when I started talking to people, during the 2024 election, I started hearing a lot of Trump, I like Trump, and from demographics

that I didn't expect to hear it from. And it was eye-opening and illuminating to the response that I got, well, to hear it, considering what you're, you know, sometimes what you're here on the news. And then the response that I was getting from different news organizations, like some of the liberal folks and even, and people who are levels, why are you doing this? Are you curating these things? I'm like, no, I'm just, this is just, I'm doing it. And then on the right, come on our show.

Oh, or, oh, this wasn't the answer that Don Lemon wanted how this guy owned him. And I'm like, no, that was the exact answer that I wanted. Whatever their answer is. Yeah. That's the answer that I want because I want, and guess what? If I was embarrassed by dumbass, I wouldn't put it on the internet. I wouldn't put it on, on my channel, if I was on my social media, if I was embarrassed by it. And if I had any sort of fear, it was embarrassed by what people are going to say to me,

people who may not like me. I know that there are people out there who don't like me. I get it every once in a while. Most of the people, you know, I like you, whatever. And there are some people, like, yeah. But so I actually go out and I do, I, you know, an IRL in real life, live. I do man on the street, live. Not everybody is in love with me. And I put that out there too, because that's real. That is real. And that's what being transparent is about. And so really,

it's not about me personally. And I'm not embarrassed by it. Okay. Fine. So, you know,

“that's why I did it. Yeah. That's why, and I think that's maybe, I guess that's why I'm successful.”

If you see me that way, I'm too close to it. I don't know what's success in what isn't in this

whole streaming thing. Well, what I've noticed is, first of all, in the new media landscape,

when you break out on your own, so much of it is actually about your personal resonance with the audience. And there is a much more intimate relationship between your audience, people watch you in new media than there is. I think in broadcast. Would you agree with that? Or, I don't know. I mean, do you feel like it's the same? Do I think more people watch me in new media? Well, do they, do you feel, I feel like they have a more, it's a closer relationship? Like so. I mean,

like, I bet I'm sure lemon heads as a concept existed while you were at CNN. But now it's like a bona fide, like subscription tier, people wear the sweatshirt, it's like it's a thing. And that seems to be, to me, at least, unique in like new media, that they want that connection.

substacker, or whatever. More than anything, I think, is that they want authenticity.

Yeah. And they want people they trust. And if I just happen to be a familiar face, and someone who had been out there, and then they're living rooms long enough, for them to know me, and to, and I gained trust from that whole CNN experience. But also,

“I think that that came from me as well, as you're saying, being tenacious. And then, just being”

myself in front of the camera, the same person that I am in my everyday life. And I think that that resonated with people didn't necessarily resonate with management all the time. But if they were smart, they would lean into it. And even some of the things that were like, "Oh my God, if I can't believe you said that they should, I believe that journalism organizations should lean in and have a conversation about them." And say, "But this is what you do,

but they're afraid." Oh my God, we can't do this one of the advertisers at that, the audience. So, I think that its authenticity is what people want, and they want people they trust.

And they also want to feel connected. When I first started doing this, it was a different thing

that I was going to do. And then I realized it's like, you know, what I'm doing is very similar to what kind of what I was doing at CNN. I mean, no interaction with my audience. It feels can. And I'm just going to sit in my living room and do a show every day called Live at Five, where I just talk to the people and do the stories that they want and sort of give my point of view.

“And it worked because that's what people want. And so now, as you're saying, it's a thing”

because people feel that they know me and they contrast me and that they are actually a part of something. So what I did was build a community rather than a channel or a program. And I think people were looking and are looking for a community in this moment, but they're also looking for people who are flawed for people who are outspoken, for people who are not perfect, for people who are tenacious enough to stand up to authority even if it's from the highest

office in the land or stand up to someone on the street or be vulnerable enough to let someone criticize them live or taped. And so it's for me, it's just that's what it's about. And it's not really about me because if it was about me, I wouldn't invite people into my life and I wouldn't invite the criticism that I get just for being so transparent. Well, you may not think it's about you, but people who watch you want it to be about you.

I mean, I think they, they want Dawn. They want to be lemon heads. I think they want those things, but then I'm the one who's giving them those things. So yes, yes, but I don't think it's just about me, but maybe I don't know. I don't think your ambition is just to make it about you. But I think that it's because it's you, people are are attracted to it. They want it. Even the people that are paying to insult you online

are paying to insult you online. You know what I mean? Because I know you made note of this. And I think it was a times piece. Like if you're making a nasty comment, you're paying to make that nasty comment. So bring it on. I mean, that's mirror phrasing you. That's true. I know you addressed this on your show on Wednesday, but I do want to ask because we're talking about the sort of what broadcast is trying to mimic. And there's been a lot of reporting on this,

how they're trying to capture some of the authenticity and roughness of like the sort of podcast universe. And CNN is trying to emulate the style of podcast using Jake Tapper. And I know Fox News has a sort of similar model with Will Kane. What do you think? When you saw that, what did you think of it?

Well, I talked about it. And I always, you know, I have to say, I just have to be real like I can't

“be fake about it. I know that's why they're lemon hands. But the initial thing that I said, I”

thought it was a compliment to my colleagues, who I think are the best in the business, the best journalists in the world. And so I was saying that they don't need tricks. People trust Jake Tapper because it's Jake Tapper and he's credible. People trust Anderson Cooper because he's Anderson Cooper and he's an iconic journalist. And he's built his name in his brand on being out there in war zones and dodging bullets and moderating debates and holding people accountable 60 minutes. Like

that is, you know, that's some high-level shit. And so I, you know, they can do what they want to do. But I don't think that they should be trying to make their anchors into podcasters because their anchors are anchors. And they're in this elevated, haunted position because of that. And I think they need to own that and should not diminish the, not only the anchors, but those

you know, disparaging them. I'm saying maybe this ain't it.

Just take it one step further. And they shouldn't be trying to be me. If they want to, if they want podcasters, Alex, hire some podcasters. Well, MS now is putting runaway country in pod save America for good media on MSNBC, which is another way to sort of retrofit it. But if you're talking about authenticity, you can't retrofit authenticity. It has to naturally spring forth from most of the person and the place. Like you naturally authentically have come to the position that

you're at. And you speak the way that you do and you are who are not because someone was like, Don, let's try it in your living room. And when you wear these glasses with this picture in the

“background, you just are doing you. And that's what, that's what works. And I mean, you know,”

the other piece of it is the tech part, which is it's going to be really hard to convince a 25-year-old

to get a cable subscription. Like there's just a fundamental fucking reality about who's consuming podcasts and what they'll pay for and what they won't and what they culturally and socially normally go or gravitate towards and linear cable and broadcast in general. I'm not saying this is a good thing for the news industry. Because I do think there's some utility to having news rooms and authentic anchors with lots of experience. But the trend lines are not in that direction.

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“action legislative battle and breaking news moment by asking three questions. What's really happening?”

What can we do about it? And how do we keep going together? This is a space for clarity, strategy, and hope rooted in action. Not denial. New episodes of assembly required drop two days. Tune in wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube. Start a test. You know, I must ask you because CNN is on the verge of being run by the elephants. And we see what's happening at CBS. We see Barry Weiss mismanagement of CBS,

a place I used to work. It has had the worst ratings they've had this century down. That's Barry Weiss is shepherding the worst ratings in CBS's history this century. I'm not surprised. Do you hear from people inside CNN? Are you worried for CNN? You talk about this three red letters and so much the world over. Yeah. And I mean, look, I loved,

That there's credibility there. And again, I didn't like my exit. I thought they treated me poorly on the way out, but I'm rooting for them. I'm rooting for them, not because of the management

because it was ultimately them, but because of my colleagues who are there who are working their

asses off, who are great journalists. And I don't believe that the people in positions of power and the gatekeepers are doing them in a justice. And so that's where, you know, that's sort of where my heart is. But I'm not surprised at CBS's as worse ratings. And I will tell you why. Because in this time that we're living in, that is so unusual when you have such aberrant behavior by the highest people who are in the highest positions in the world and the

highest office of the land. And where you see that there's no truth to what they're doing, where they turn an insurrection into a walk in the park, where they exonerate and pardon the people who broke into the United States Capitol and smeared VCs on the wall and Pete on the wall and beat up police officers when they are, you know, I can go on with the whole litany of things.

“And so if when you try to, it's, look, if you want to try to move a network to the right,”

when they say, look, they want to move the network to the center. First of all, where's the center?

Where is the center? How many of you find it? When you find the center, let me know. And I just believe that there's truth to it. And sometimes the truth may be on the liberal side and sometimes the truth may be on the conservative side. But on this, in this particular time that we're in, if you say I'm going to move the network to the right, people think you're going to move it to maga and it's going to be about disinformation and lying and racism and misogyny because that's what

this is about. This is the wrong time to try to do that. First of all, and secondly, you don't try to move or change a network ideologically and news network ideologically because that's not what journalism is. Look, CNN tried it. They lost their core audience. There's no, there was no payoff for them for the core audience. And kind of what they're doing now, there's no payoff for it, except if people are wondering like what the hell is going on, this is just like a sort of another

“whiplash moment for the people who are watching CNN. So I believe if CNN goes down the same road”

that CBS does and they're going to need a miracle to get out of it. So I'm not surprised that they had their lower ratings because people want the truth right now. They want people to stand up to authority. They don't want false equivalence. They don't want people coming on just to lie. They don't want people who are being just booked on shows just to fight. There's nothing productive about it. People want the truth. Some things are objectively bad and much of what the

maget administration, Donald Trump administration is doing is objectively bad for not only people but for the country and for democracy. And people want that reflected the real world reflected on the news when they turn the news on whether it be on broadcast cable or even in streaming. I got it just on that last point. No, you're not. I got it. Okay, because I have to ask you this,

Candace Owens is always, I think in the top 10, she's always ranked in the top five on Apple

news podcasts. Does that worry you? I mean, because I'm with you on people want authenticity. But I think people have been lulled by a lot of these maget personalities and they're the truth tellers that they're the ones that actually have the the read out on what's what's up. What's real? But I think you're making my point because you're never going to. I'm not talking about the maga folks. That's that's a cult. Those people have the people on the right have cult like fans and

viewers because it just it's just the nature of conservatives. Maybe they felt like their voices weren't heard for so long and they actually got into these streaming places. They were pioneers. So that's one reason they're doing so well. But the people who listen to Candace Owens aren't they're not going to I'm sorry. They're not going to watch the CBS evening news. They're not going to watch CNN. They're going to watch Megan Kelly. They're going to watch Candace Owens.

They're going to watch Tucker Carlson. They're going to watch people who are preaching their

“gospel and every at every single turn. And if you want to be a news organization, if you want to”

deal with facts and as you said shared reality, right? We talked about that. Then you're not going to watch those and not because they're bad. It's just because they're truthful and balance if you do it right. But if you try to move it to the right, they're not even going to watch that because they don't trust that. And that's actually not where the news is going right now. They're going to watch Fox News. And they're going to watch as I said, all the other people

and the Nick Fuentes is the world and all of this. That's what they're going to do.

They're part of a cult unless you're going to like what is it when you get someone out of a cult

deescalating and what's it called? Deeprogram. Deeprogram. They need to be look at those people as journalism or journalists. I look at them as influencers and streamers. I'm talking about the people who do what what I do, what pod saved does. And what the bull worked does. What Sam Sator does. Like people who are bringing information and have a shared sense of reality. But then they have some swag, right? Then they lean into it. They have the

editorial has teeth. You know where they're coming from. You don't expect to see someone calling insulting a black woman to her face about a Barack Obama and a Michelle Obama tweet from the

president where he depicted them as apes. And then you're going to have someone come on and go,

“that's not racist. And then you're just like, of course it's fucking racist. Why are you doing this?”

It's racist. And so, you know, I'm not talking about those folks. I'm talking about a place where that us who are doing this now are in have success in it that we're coming from a more factual, informative, truthful place where we don't try to say, well, this is the middle. And that's right. And that's left. Sometimes my subscribers don't want to hear what I'm saying. But I tell them, look, I know you probably don't want to hear this, but here's the truth. And then at the end of the

day, they'll say, thank you for informing us. I may not like it, but thank you for informing us. So that's what's up. I mean, then that is an important distinction. I mean, look at the success. Look at podcasts, success. Look at Brian Tyler Cohen's success. Yeah. Look at, you know, it's, it's, and these people, I don't believe that they are, they may be some of them left leaning. And that's okay. They're transparent about it. But at least they, they're, they're, there are facts in the shared sense of reality.

And they're not saying, well, the first lady of France is a man. Nobody's saying that on the left.

“Or outrageous shit like that. You know what I'm saying? So it's not propaganda. And I think that”

there's an establishment, there's an established sort of baseline of truth. And the pursuit of, you know, reality. I'm, I will ask you my friend before we let you go. Two things. Hopefully you like both answering both of these questions. You are, I mean, I just, it is like there's, it's not a coincidence that I'm talking to the week this massive profile comes out about you in the New York Times. Like, there's national interest in what you're doing, the fight you're fighting

against the Trump administration. You've always been in the public eye, but this feels like a different

level, right? Like you're, you're in, as they say. This is why you're a great reporter. I know you're going, but yeah. You're in your power. Dare I say you're in your prime. And I, I wonder, I'm giving you a chance, like, has, has this, what you're doing now at, and, you know, at a, I'm not, I'm not trying to air out anybody's age here, but like, this is not the normal, like, sort of metabolism, the normal career arc that we see, right, after you've been in the

game for some decades. Like, has it changed your idea of what it means to be in one's prime and when that happens? No, because I think that that whole thing about not being your prime, that was misconstrued. And the one thing that I, that, if there was one thing that I, could, that bothers me, the most of anything is that whole thing. When I said, if you go back and look at it, I said, I'm not saying that I believe that the whole point of it was that that is how society treats women.

And someone who has been treated or discriminated against should no better. If you have been, especially with the way the Republican Party has treated her, they're like, we don't want her, right, we don't want me to be president or whatever. So many of people, like have a hard time with women over 40. Yes, but so, but was women of a hard time with women over 40? Exactly,

“but that was that's how society treats women and you should know better. So you shouldn't be an”

ageist when someone has been sexist or misogynistic towards you. You should have more knowledge in that. And I think people understood some people understood what was a civil war about. It wasn't about, you know, slave, she said wasn't, she didn't say it was about slavery. And then other things about. So when that came out, some of our ideas were just not, you know, for the prime age. But that wasn't necessarily about that. I thought that about women. I don't.

I think the exact opposite. I think women are the smartest and strongest of the sexist.

done higher a woman, we hired all mostly women. I had, finally at the end, I had one, my personal

producer was a man, but every single pretty much person on the show, my lead writer, woman. And I grew up in a family of all women. So that is, that's a one thing that bothered me is because is that people took that out of context. I could have been a better communicator about it since

“that's what I do for a living. That's living. But that's not what I meant. And I told them that,”

I think they understood it. And you know, do you know how that works, right? So, so what I will say is that, do I think that I'm in my prime? Absolutely. Of course. I'm not delusional. I'm not, you know, I can't run 10 miles and not die anymore, but, you know, I need more sleep. I have to think about people's names like, wait a minute, what's that? Oh, that guy and it's like, that's your husband, his name is Tim. Oh, yeah. So I'm not delusional, but yes, I do think that because of that,

I surprise myself in what I've been able to do over the past two years. Do you think you might ever run for office? Oh, boy, that is a long paston. I hear that all the time. Uh-huh. Yeah, and then what do you think of what happens in your head? First of here, I don't want to ruin my life. Why would I invite that sort of even more criticism and whatever? I don't why would I want to ruin my life with people digging into, you know, everything about me and, uh, and campaign ads,

putting everything that I've ever said that steam controversial, but I don't even think people would care

“about that. So, um, I think they, I think they, they would, no, it's right. I've never said that I was”

going to grab anybody by the pussy, right? So, that doesn't surprise me. I've never said that a woman

had blood coming out of her wherever, but also I'm not a white man, and the rules are different for me. And so, just like the rules, I believe, sadly, are different for women. They're different for Hillary Clinton for Nikki Haley, which is one of the reasons that, you know, what, with that, I, what I meant to say, they're different for Kamala Harris. They're different for Alex Wagner, and white men get away with way more than, you know, women or black people or any minority.

And so, I think the rules are different, but, uh, I don't know why would I invite that criticism, and, you know, my, uh, the people who, who, my mentors will say, why do you want to take a,

“a pay cut? But it's not about money for me. So, do I ever think about it? Yes, could it happen?”

Yeah, it could happen. If the opportunity presented itself, the right opportunity presented itself. Look, if I wanted to, I know people are going to think I'm crazy. This is going to be the headline, and people are going to laugh about it. I think I could be president of United States. I could definitely run this country better than then, um, then Donald Trump. And what's how I'm roll cut, but, yes, you, you would be a market improvement. As an independent, though, there would be a hard time

for me to run for anything because, you know, the way the system is set up, I'd have to choose aside. And so, you know, I'd probably, I probably would have to become a Democrat. And, um, yeah, so, you know, am I at the point that point now? No, and I know people are going to say, Don, lemon, and so do it, crazy. But yeah, let's look, why can I think about running for office? Why can I think about being president of United States when, look at what we have when

anybody, did anybody think Barack Obama, as he says, his guy with a funny name is from a mixed background, did anybody ever think that he would become president, that he had that aspiration. I don't have an aspiration to become president, but, uh, I do think that I could run this country a lot better than Donald Trump. You know what else, I think that I could run better than most people. And I've talked, actually talked about to my husband about that last night.

Please tell me a news organization, because I was there. I've been in the game for so long, and I'm not interested in being, you know, the anchor out front. I could come in and fix the bulk of their problems and lickety split in no time flat. Boom, boom. Wow, I feel like we're making news. The lemon heads merch is about to get become collectors item. Zah. Yeah. So, I'm building my own channel and building my own network, and we'll see where that goes. But

if I had to, like, if they dropped me into a news organization, I could fix it up. I could clean up the

place. Down lemon is ready to conquer the world ladies and gentlemen. You heard it here first.

I'm blessing you for launching your presidential run on a pot-save America. We appreciate it.

That would be the perfect place to run. And I forgot, I mean, look, it also too. You're definitely running as a Democrat if that's the case, my friend.

“And I forgot about Midas. So, yeah, I totally, well, that's why I'm saying thanks for launching it on”

Pot-save America. You know where your bread is buttered. Don, it is, it is, I knew it was going to be excellent to speak with you, but you've, as usual, exceeded my, my conception of what was even

possible. So, well, thank you. I'm sorry that there are certain things that I can't talk about.

Oh, my God. I believe it would ever, but I think you delivered, Don. I really think you delivered. You think so, my home home. You definitely did. Yes, but go out journalists. Yes. I bold. Be too serious. Talk to people. Be on a phrase. Go talk to people. Be on a

“phrase. Unbothered and on a phrase. Just like Don. Thank you, my friend. It's great to,”

it's great to talk to you. It's great to have some time. Thank you. And become a subscriber of the Don Lemon Show YouTube, Twitch, Substack, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, wherever you get your streaming, Apple podcasts, Spotify, and I Heart Radio. There are many opportunities. I can subscribe. Go and love Don. Thanks, dude. Thanks to Don Lemon for coming on the show and breaking news.

It's always a pleasure to have you, Don. John and love it will be back in your feet on Tuesday

with a brand new episode. See you all soon. You too, or Apple podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review that helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Cricut. Pods Av America is a Cricut media production. Our producer is Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Faris Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Read Churnland is our executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics.

The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Segelin and Charlotte Landis. Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Alijacone, Haley Jones, Ben Hefkoat, Mia Kelman, Carol Pelavi, David Toll's and Ryan Young. Our production staff is probably unionized with the writer's guild of America East.

In moments like these, it's easy to fill overwhelmed and even easier to fill power with. But we are neither. I'm Stacey Abrams. And on my podcast, Assembly Required, I take on each executive action, legislative battle, and breaking news moment by asking three

“questions. What's really happening? What can we do about it? And how do we keep going together?”

This is a space for clarity, strategy, and hope rooted in action, not denial. New episodes of Assembly Required, Drop Tuesdays, tune in wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube. And we can't just invest in it. For all of you, in the backstrums. A real help. Start your tests today for one of your promo. Off Shopbyfall.de/record.