Bait and What’s Making Us Happy

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Happy Hour on your favorite podcast app? And now, onto the show. The world's still waiting on the answer to a very pressing question. Who will be the next James Bond? In a meantime the great "Riz Ahmed" has thrown his hat in the ring. Well, fictionally speaking anyway. He created and stars in the whimsical comedy series "Bate" and plays an actor who's in the running for the role of 007. But the path towards dotting the

tucks and driving the acid Martin is paved with hurdles, family drama, relationship issues,

and most of all, his own insecurities. I'm Aisha Harris and join me today on NPR's Pop Culture

Happy Hour is "Vulture TV Critic," Roxanna Hadadi. Hey Roxanna, welcome back. Hey, thank you so much for having me, lovely to have you. And also with us as Jeff Yang, he's a cultural critic and author of "Be Golden Screen," the movies that made Asian America welcome back to you, too, Jeff. Oh, he's great to be here. Yes, I'm very excited for this conversation with you both. So in "Bate," "Riz Ahmed" plays Shaw, an actor who's currently in the

middle of a career downturn. Now, he lands in audition to be the next James Bond, but when this leaks to the public, the social media reaction to the possibility of a brown 007 are just about as

normal as you would expect, which is to say they're unhinged and one particularly disturbing

response, Shakespeare's confidence, and sends his personal life into a tailspin. The cast includes GazCon as Zulfi, Shaw's brother, cousin, and right-hand man, Shiba Chata as Tyra, Shaw's supportive mother, and Patrick Stewart, as himself, slash a pig's head. I'm sure we'll get into that in a little bit. It's quite a bit there. "Bate" is streaming now on Prime Video, and we should mention Amazon supports NPR in pace to distribute some of our content. It's also probably just worth noting

that Amazon MGM Studios owns the Bond franchise as well, so that's some very interesting corporate synergy going on here, but it's probably not a soft launch or a hard launch of "Riz Ahmed" as Bond who knows. But anyway, Jeff, I'm going to start with you. Did you take the "Bate?" "Hookland and sinker." You know, I went in pretty skeptical about the premise just because there's a whole sort of cottage industry now of Asians exploring their identity through

popular culture on screen. You've got stuff like Master of None and everything everywhere all once, and shortcomings into your Chinatown, and a lot of them have been really good, but sometimes hard to say, "Well, is this next one going to lend something more? Is it going to

“expand that horizon?" And yeah, the fact is the very thing that I was a little skeptical about”

ended up being not just the core of the premise of this, but the very fact that Amazon owns MGM now and is the caretaker of the James Bond franchise was something that I was worried about, because I thought this was going to be either self-parity or an attempt at, I don't know, gay keeping. And instead it was this hugely subversive moment that blended that question of Asian identity and self-reflection and mental health with this mythical avatar of whiteness

for the British Empire. I loved it. I really enjoyed this much more than I thought I would, and if it was possible I've ever seen it too. I'd watch a season two of this. Interesting, interesting. Okay, thank you, Jeff. Roxanna, did you take the bait? I did. I like that where we're using this. I did. I did like it. I mean, I hesitate to put this out there, but I do

“feel like Rizz's work is particularly interesting because I think over like the 20 years that he has”

been acting and writing and creating the question of representation isn't everything, right? Like whether it matters, what is its impact? Now versus its impact like 10 years ago, how does that change? These are constant questions and everything from like four lions to the night of to sound of metal to all the stuff that he's been in really. Even the things, of course, that don't matter to his ethnicity at all, like venom. It is a really interesting thing that he has been circling

his entire career. And I think it is fascinating to Jeff's point to use bond. That's like the filter to process all of that. So I think it's really heavy and really meta and very self-aware in a way that is perpetually like tripping up the viewer because it's sort of like pointing at you

remember when the internet was my days still wanted. You know, I still want it. Sure. I don't

“think he wants it anymore. No, but I think we do. He's quite older. I think at this point to just”

he hop in. He just got ignited. Like Idris is actually fine. But I liked that the series is sort of like drawing us into those questions. I also really liked that it's very funny. Rises very funny.

If you've seen any of his British satire stuff. Yeah. And I think him and Gus Khan are an amazing

comedic duo. And if you're strapped for best or right now, I'll take you on as a drive. I don't mind. I don't need any money from you, bro. I was the Augustist. There's no one. I got stuff cooking. What are you going cooking? I can't tell you, huh? This top secret signed an NDA. UA signed an NDA. I didn't know. To Jeff's point of wanting a sequel, I would just watch like a travel show with the two of them. I don't know. I mean, I would watch anything with the two of them.

I think there's a lot to like. I think it is messy. I think it is a point that it's messy and it might test people a little bit in the middle of it. Yeah. But I am, I am a pro. Yeah. Yeah. I shared

sort of your similar reservations about this. Just because it does feel, I do wonder how much

representation as a theme in work, like how far that can go these days. And Jeff, you mentioned, you know, some really great shows, including interior Chinatown, Master of None, which are kind of dealing with these ideas of representation. And I feel I'm not to play the Olympics here. But like it feels like a similar path I've seen with black filmmaking and what are the limitations of those types of

“stories that focus so heavily on like, can I play this role? And honestly, I got a lot of like Hollywood”

shuffle out of this in many ways. The Robert Townsend film, where it's kind of like, you know, you're auditioning for this role. I mean, it's not quite a one to one comparison. But I feel as though that movie is also kind of zany. There's a magic of moments, fantastical moments, and there's things like that here. And the question of like, how much do I want to sell myself out to do the certain roles? And despite the fact that I had those reservations, I do think, overall, I became

really taken by the story that is being told, especially when it's not so focused on representation. One of my favorite, actually, I think the best episode is the one that kind of just representation is there, but it's not the center. And that's during their Eid celebration in episode three. And so, you know, just a little bit of setup here. But like, essentially, in the previous episode, shot was at this museum events that he got in like last minute and he wanted to get this speech or

whatever. And at one point, a museum protestor, like, barges in and shot goes, he just goes a little overboard for the moment and ensures this museum protestor. And so, in episode three, it's the next day. And the family is entirely having their Eid celebration while his agent Felicia, who's played by Warrouche, Opia, she keeps pressing shot over the phone to be like, you know,

“you need to craft an apology video. Like, you need to do this because this is bad for you.”

This is not a good look. And so, him trying to please his family as these celebrations are happening, while also trying to make this video that he, like, doesn't even feel like he should be making. Like, that is fun. And I love seeing Riz play a character who is kind of annoying. He does a lot of bad things. There's another word I would warn you, but I can't because it's NPR. But like, he is the fact that he has people who care for him, he's very lucky because I don't think I could be friends with

this game. He's so, he's so self-centered and also just doesn't really understand the social contract in some certain ways. And I love seeing that aspect of him. You send a message all felt one. Instead of it going green, it goes gray. What does that mean to you? It means you're built. Really? Yeah. Let me just show you this. Okay, I'm going to ask you to leave now. When it's really focused on him as a sort of self-involved

actor who is also dealing with his own insecurities, that's for me when the show really, really shines. I do think that Riz on that's performance is such an anchor for the show in so many ways. I mean,

the whole cast is incredible, but it's just super hard to make hypocritical self-loving appealing

or even watchable. And somehow he really does it. And yes, I love the episode. I thought it was such a great centerpoint kind of a pivot for the this very short series, but he kind of grabbed me from the very first moment of his introduction. You come into the show and he's basically blaming himself for Blung's audition, which we kind of see him do. And then there's this moment where he's talked to a mirror and berating himself really horribly. It should be a shame to be a

self-loving and he has something because you're ashamed of him. Nobody. Then the audio tech comes into

been demike this whole time. And as he sort of leans over to have the mic taken off, he just kind of like

places his head on the guy's shoulder, like going in for a hug because he's so broken and sad. And I was like, man, that's such a tiny detail, great choice. I was in. I was like, okay, let's see where

“this is going. Yeah, yeah, I think there are lots of those little sort of physical moments where”

however, Riz is carrying himself or the very slight changes. He makes his facial expressions are really strong. I am contractually obligated to mention Leonardo DiCaprio in every conversation I ever have, but it made me think a lot about principle on a diamond Hollywood and sort of Leo's

performance of an actor who thinks that he has like peaked. He's not sure what could come next.

I think Riz minds a lot of really compelling pathos from someone who has sort of like lost faith in themselves, right? Yeah. Has lost faith in the social contract, too, because I know what it's like to have very demanding immigrant parents. I know that experience. Yeah, I saw a lot of shared, yeah, like shared commonalities and how his family treats him. So I think all of that stuff is really great. I also think maybe something that's worth talking about is the fact that this is

six episodes. They are generally like 25 minutes. And I would say each episode is a different genre, right? Like he's doing a paranoid thriller in one. The eat celebration, which is more of like a family drama. There's almost like a Richard link later style shot romance. Yes. So I like also because he and his collaborators are showing this fluidity with genre. And again sort of making this implicit look. Someone who looks like Riz can do all of these things. This is not like

model minority stories. Yeah. Like he sucks. Yeah. It is also just I think a really strong

“proof of concept to say, look, maybe Riz is not going to be bond. But you should be”

casting these people in your projects. Everybody in this show pulls their weight. Yeah. Another thing that I really, really liked about this is that yes, it is also, you know, immigrant parent story. But the family overall is quite supportive of him, especially Tyrah, his mother. During the celebrations, there's a moment where she's like, I need you to help me like, don't leave my side. And you can tell they have this moment. It is my day. It belongs to almost

lips. It's mine. You know, one thing she doesn't know? What? A son? Mother son, they are close. She's like proud of him. She's like, I'm so excited. You're going to be bought like, there's just usually in these stories. We often see the parent and often the mother really. Like who is very

“much like, you should be a doctor. You should be a lawyer. Like the arts, whatever. And we don't see”

that. We see family that yes, they have their issues. And a lot of it really does stem from shot himself. Not being able to balance both his own personal career goals without being a family person. But I love seeing that connection between them. We mentioned Patrick Stewart and, you know, I enjoy how kind of chaotic that turns into he is playing sort of shots in like all of those things. You only have yourself to blame. I'm trying. Try harder. Do you understand?

He's playing sort of like the inner self of shot in a way that I find really fascinating. He did. Oh, yes. He did. Yes. It's a fun voice role. We don't actually see him on screen. But it's a fun sort of voice role that also is weird. And that weirdness is what helps keep it, you know, fresh. Yeah, I'm even seeing a little bit of boots Riley in here, right? Like I just like, yeah, completely. Yeah, boots Riley, it's bike joke. Like those types of filmmakers who are just kind of

quirky, weird, but also providing that social commentary that feels kind of rich in meaty. I wanted really go back to what you said about family members supporting him so forth and his mom especially. And I personally felt a little bit like both seen and exposed because I've a son, my eldest son Hudson is an actor. And there's one line that the mom delivers when she said it made me just internally clench up and cringe. She says at one point, it's work going well. I haven't gotten a

Google older for a long time. I was like, oh my god, that's me. But the other series that's out

right now that actually just kind of nice unexpected second season that this definitely feels like it

and then Kingsley, they have like a really interesting and similar relationship in a lot of ways as

“like, Riz Ahmed and Patrick Stewart. And the whole thing is also this treat is on what it's”

like to be an actor in narcissistic and hating yourself and loving yourself too much. It's really fascinating. One thing I did kind of wonder, is did you all have a clear sense on what like how famous Sha was before this bond set? Because that was the one thing where I was just like, how famous is he? Because he's able to sort of like walk in the world. There's a joke at the beginning. It's again. I'm kind of familiar, but it's like he gets mistaken for another actor.

What? He's not there for him. Look how short he is. David's door is strong handsome.

I'm a good doctor at the hero. And it's like, oh yeah, this happens all the time.

But I also wasn't sure like is he a calum turner type of famous where it's like maybe famous in the UK, but not that like, was that confusing to you as well or did that bother you at all? Because I was just trying to wrap my head around like how famous is this dude? Like he has fans. He has like a bubble right? Which they reference multiple times. Yeah. But like yeah. I mean, I definitely don't think that he is. But again, this is sort of like a tricky thing, right? Because like, Riz has an

Oscar. He's been nominated for an Oscar. But I don't know how many people on the street would be like, oh, that's Riz Ahmed. Let me talk about his filmography with you. Yeah. So part of me almost thought like he's clearly not meant to be as famous as he is in real life. But I did wonder if he is meant to be as famous as some of the other actors in the show like Hamesh Patel who is here playing like his rival and people might know him as from like station eleven

or you might know him from tenet. But again, I don't know like walking through the street if people would recognize who he is. So that again sort of felt to me like a meta commentary on this show

is probably full of brown dudes that you might recognize, but it might like take you a second to place

them. Yeah. Even someone like Gus like he is a well-known comedian in the UK. American people probably know him from Taskmaster. But I don't know what else they might know him from. So I don't know that's a good question. But I guess I just took it as again part of the show sort of like

“winking at us. I feel like especially when you're talking about bond, right? Which I think historically”

other than you know Pierce Brosnan, they've generally picked actors who were a little bit unexpected, who come off as being like, oh, I've seen that guy before and other stuff that could be kind of similar, but like did anybody really know who Daniel Craig was, right? Before he was cast. And the thing is when it's a white actor, people just give that elasticity like, oh, they pick the right guy or they watch to see what happens. But if it's somebody who is in that slightly

more obscure space and the person's not white or not male or maybe not straight, I'm sure the reaction much like in this show would be just hugely like what the hell do they think they're doing. So I think the show is definitely playing with an impurpose. Yeah. Yeah. Also, Calum is engaged to do a leaper. So because of certain levels. Oh, that's true. I see this is the thing. Like, I'm not a bond person. I've seen all of the Daniel Craig ones and I've seen the earliest ones

with Sean Connery. I've skipped all the other ones. I don't really care. I understand that this is a British thing that you know, and I'm also very curious to see how this show translates for audiences. I do want a preference for those who maybe you're listening and haven't dug in yet or just haven't finished it yet. Bond is kind of in the background. It's not the beyond and

“all of the show. And again, I think that's what makes another thing that makes this work is that”

it's there. It's a catalyst. It's not just about him being a brown person. It's also about like am I actually meant to play this character? Like, can I am I a super like the British version of the superhero? Like a British Batman. Yeah, British Batman. Exactly. Yeah. So I really dug this. I watch it all in one sitting. It goes down very, very easy. Right. Riz has the Riz, as they say. Would tell us what you think about bait, find us at facebook.com/pch

and up next. We're going to be talking about what's making this happy this week. Welcome back, a reminder. If you're not following our show yet, hit that follow button on your preferred podcast app and say plugged in on all things pop with your happy hour adjacent, including what's making this happy every week. Which brings me to what is making this happy. I'm going to start with you, Roxanna. What is making you happy this week? What is making me happy this week is

the upcoming novel by Jordan Harper called a violent masterpiece, which comes out in late April.

television about LA, but I'm getting into novel form. And these are just like really beautifully

written horrendously violent neo-nar books that really take me back to like what I was in middle-school watching the shield and feeling like I was reaching something or watching something super subversive and transgressive and maybe not what I should have been watching at that young of an age. But I would hardly recommend them. This one is sort of actually related to Riz Ahmed, a little bit, and that it is about like a live streaming sort of tabloid style of videographer who travels

around LA like chasing down crime scenes. So it's about this character and sort of his, I would say discovery of a Jeffrey Epstein-like conspiracy. That is a violent masterpiece by Jordan Harper. It's coming out at the end of next month. All right. Thank you so much, Riz Ahmed. Jeff, what is making you happy? So I'm hardly alone in this, but I stayed up and very early watched the return of BTS. The boy band that ran the world and they are back and just seeing them

“together on stage and I think very specifically, I'll just say my bias is Rm. My favorite of the”

group and he heard himself in rehearsal and was not able to actually do the complicated choreography and dance that BTS so well known for and nevertheless he and the rest of the boys, they just there's such a breath of freshness and innocence in a world where it feels like we have so little of it and I don't know. For that hour I was watching the reigning concert, I was definitely happy. Oh, I love that. I love that. And I love that it is thematically completely opposed to what's

making me happy. It takes all kinds. Well, thank you Jeff. I love that. It sounds like it made you so

“happy. That is BTS that come back live and that is streaming on Netflix. What is making me happy?”

So Liza Manelli has a new memoir out called Kids. Boy, to you here this. But that's not what's making me happy because I haven't read it yet. I'm sure it'll be great. What is making me happy is that it made me return to the great TV concert film from 1972 Liza with a Z. This is just about an hour of Liza being Liza in her prime and it's directed and choreographed by Bob Fossie written by Fred Ed. And it's just her just being Liza. And if you know Liza Manelli and if you enjoy that stuff,

it is catnip. It is perfect. There are lots of great songs. She's singing. She's singing by herself.

She's got dancers. But for me, the highlight has always been and will always be her performing

Joe Texas song I gotcha. And the choreography is like peek, faulty, herky jerky. And it's Liza Manelli doing it. It's both incredibly cool and not at all cool. And I love it. It is what she does

“best. And that's what's making me happy this week. You can find it streaming on Tobi, Liza with a Z.”

That brings us to the end of our show, Roxana Hadadi and Jeff Yang. Thank you so much for

being here. This was so much fun. Always. Thank you. This episode was produced by Liz Metzger,

Hapsa Phatama, and Mike Katzif, and edited by our showrunner Jessica Readie. Hello, commend provides our theme music and thank you for listening to Popculture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Eisha Harris, and we'll see you all next week.