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Today's number nine.
“That's how many four and five star generals have been fired by this administration.”
Almost as many as the 150 years prior. When asked for comment, Secretary Pete Higgs has said he's "trying to be the shepherd." We later reached out to Quentin Tarantino to find out what that meant. Well, I'm Ed Elson, it is April 22nd, let's check in on yesterday's market vitals. The major indices declined, as Iran talks stalled around market closed Trump announced the ceasefire
was extended indefinitely, and the blockade would be maintained, Brent Crude Rose, and Treasury yields climbed as Federal Reserve Chair nominee Kevin Worsh testified before the Senate Banking Committee. During the hearing, Worsh called for reforms at the Fed, suggesting he'd make changes to the agency's inflation models and communications style.
He also dodged questions about Lisa Cook and the Trump power probe and declined to acknowledge that President Trump lost the 2020 election. Still, regarding Fed independence, he said quote,
"The President never asked me to predetermine, commit, fix, decide on any interest rate decision
in any of our discussions, nor would I ever agree to do so." Okay, what else is happening? After 15 years as CEO of Apple, Tim Cook is officially stepping down. During Cook's tenure, Apple's revenue almost quadrupled, and its market value increased by about $3.6 trillion on September 1st, Cook will be transitioning to the role of executive chairman,
and he'll hand the CEO reins to John Turner's Apple's head of hardware engineering. Turner's spent 25 years, half his life at the company, overseeing the hardware behind every major Apple product, the transition marks the start of a new era for Apple, with plenty of unanswered questions about what comes next. So, here to discuss what this moment means for Apple and for the future of this company. We are joined by a panel of experts, Patrick McGee, award-winning journalist
and author of Apple in China, the capture of the world's greatest company, and also trip Michael, tech reporter for The New York Times, and author of "After Steve, how Apple became a trillion dollar company, and lost its soul." Patrick, trip, thank you very much for joining us on "Proftory Market." So, Cook is departing. Turner's is taking over. I want to start with a look at Tim Cook and his career, Patrick, I'll start with you. Tim was CEO 15 years, and when we look
back at this, what will we say about what he did for the company? What will the history books of
Business say about his legacy at Apple?
I mean, look, I think if you're looking at it from 2026, it is hard to fault this guy. As you said,
“$3.6 trillion added to Apple's market cap. He clearly fulfilled whatever task Steve Jobs said”
him out to do. His role was not necessarily to come up with breakthrough products.
It was to iterate what Steve Jobs had already come up with on a global scale. He squeezed every penny that was really available in the supply chain. He built up services. He put Apple into new areas like Apple TV and host to things like that. He's getting $20 billion a profit per year just out of the Google relationship, just for the using the user base in Apple's favor. So, I mean, all kinds of things. But what you're pointing to is where will we see this 10 years
from now? And that's the most interesting question because, you know, Benton's enough trajectory has put this with the nice metaphor. He sort of laid time bombs for the next CEO, which is to say the China risk could really blow up and we can go into more detail there. And he's not invested
“really much at all into data centers for AI. That might be the right move. But if it turns out”
to be the wrong move, Apple would be years behind the companies that people thinthawning over the last few years with appropriate acclaim. Yeah. We will definitely get to China and we'll definitely get to AI trip. I just want to get your initial reactions. What do you make of can cook stepping down? How do you think he'll be remembered? Patrick's right. We can make a call today as on how he's done over the past 15 years and say clearly he'll be remembered today as the most successful
successor to an accomplished executive to a founder. I mean, what Tim Cook did is rare whether you're talking about the world of business or sports or even politics. If you have somebody who's kind of a figurehead in the same way Steve Jobs was, seldom do you have somebody come along behind them and continue or sustain that success? I mean, you know, if you're college football fan, nobody followed Bear Bryant for decades until Nick Sabin came along, right? Like you skip generations
and Tim Cook, he wasn't a miss despite what people thought out of the gate. But there's another question about him and that's based on the lack of new products, right? I mean Apple is still really living off the iPhone and off the products that it stitched onto the iPhone that made the iPhone stickier than even it was when it was first release and the question will be whether or not it runs out of momentum eventually and whether or not his successor can succeed and innovating again
“and delivering a new product that potentially adds to the company's prospects for the future?”
I mean, when we look at what he did well, it's easiest to just start with the numbers
why he took a $350 billion company intended into a four trillion dollar company. He increased
revenue 300% he increased profits 350%. But when we look at like the decisions that he made and the things that he actually did to achieve those numbers, trip, what do you think he got right? Like what were his big wins over the course of the career, his career and then will return to what the future will look like? But what do you think he got right? There are two signature things that I think he did that really changed the trajectory for Apple and the first was striking a China mobile deal
two years after taking over as CEO of the company. He'd spent a long time working on that. It changed Apple's trajectory in China, it unlocked the iPhone in China and turned China not just from a market that made and produced the iPhone but it turned Apple into a company that really captured sales from the rising little class in China and that's really become a bedrock of their business. And also to Patrick's point earlier, it's a precarious, you know, part of their business as
well because of the global, the geopolitical circumstances and the adversarial relationship today between the US and China. And then the second thing he did was he looked at the iPhone and he said,
"Okay, well, how do we make more money off a product that now is in the pockets of a billion
people around the world?" And he leaned into services in 2019 and made that a focus of the company's business. He launched new services that drew attention to that, including like TV+ and, you know, a credit card, he elbowed Apple into new areas so that he can make more money. Just because of the sheer heft and the number of people who own the iPhone. Yeah. Patrick, I'd be curious to hear if you have anything to add on to that and potentially, but my follow-up is, "What do you think you got wrong?"
Yeah, no, the getting wrong stuff is obviously more interesting and I suppose maybe I would point
To, so two things.
Apple car for 10 years and then abandoned the project. Yeah, I honestly him and Hall about whether or not one should point that out as a major disaster. Tim Cook's line about it was that we like to fail
“internally. And honestly, I can respect that. They put a lot of engineering talent into it and at”
the end of the day decided not to do it. I don't know that we should hold his feet to the fire for that. You know, but it's, it's worth thinking about. The other one is the vision pro. I mean, I did the vision pro demo and was in awe of this thing. Somehow convinced my spell so let me get $3,500 to spend on the device. And after six days took it back. I was writing my book at the time. I thought
this is going to be the first book ever written in the Vision Pro. And for six days, I realized
this thing's useless. You can't have it on your head for more than 45 minutes. It's an engineering marvel, but it's basically a disaster as a product. And you know, no pun intended. It lacks vision. I mean, that's Tim Cook, the engineering talent in the company can build a great product, but it doesn't have an ecosystem. I don't think Tim Cook's much of a partnership sky. He's not really a win-win partnership sky. He's a Apple takes all guy. And I think that really sort of
came home when they tried to build this new platform in Vision OS. Companies like YouTube and Netflix had no interest in building and building for it. So, you know, that's a failure. But the bigger one is
“I think the failure is a more intangible. Trip will know as well as me. If you go find people that”
worked at Apple for 20 or 30 years, people who really understood the difference between the Steve Jobs era and the Tim Cook era, you know, they're just a lack of inspiration. There's just the lack of hunger. The people leading Apple are all our worth hundreds of millions of dollars through their stock options. You know, they just don't have the appetite to take on major projects like they used to. And you'll have someone that comes out of Caltech with brilliance expertise.
And what are they doing? They're doing the iPad magnets for two and a half years before calling it quits or something. It's just it's a huge company. And I don't know fundamentally just the honest statement. I don't know if it's just the nature of a company that size or if it's Tim Cook's prep, prep, prep, pet agree and risk version that just sort of makes the company a little bit dull, predictable and more like a utility than it ever has been. Yeah, I mean, I just elaborate on that.
Yeah, please. You know, one of the things Patrick's getting out here too is that what Tim did over time was turn Apple into a juggernautom, a giant machine, right? Where operations had a bigger voice
in product development. And some of that was necessity, right? They're making 200 million iPhones a
“year. You have to make sure that you hit certain deadlines to be able to deliver those iPhones.”
But the kind of the richness of those deadlines close some of the creativity possibilities for people who had wants to develop these products in a more nimble fashion. And that's locked them into the product line up they have. And the bachelor's point made it hard to be as innovative as they once were. And to people from the outside looking in, it's led to accusations that Apple's like more uninspired. Is this part of the AI problem here? I mean, we talked about the fact that
Apple is basically the only company that is not investing hundreds of billions of dollars into AI infrastructure. I mean, look at Amazon its capex is expected to reach 200 billion dollars this
year for Google. It's close to that 175. And then Apple is going to spend only 14 billion dollars.
They're actually cutting their spending. Is that, I mean, what is that say about the company? Is that because they don't have vision or is it because they have discipline? I mean, what are we to make of that? And where is Tim Kirk? How does he play into that portrait? So I think it's pretty nuanced because on the one hand, Apple would like to say, hey, we can just be the hardware engineering company. Someone's going to build out massive data centers. You know, if it's open
AI, if it's clawed fine, but they're going to use the iPhone to access it. And meanwhile, we'll actually collect 15 to 30 percent of every subscription, you know, supporting that ecosystem. I mean, in that sense, it's brilliant. But the nuance there also is that Apple had the first mover advantage with Siri. All right. Siri is pre Alexa. It's pre any of this by a decade. And they completely squandered the potential. So the question is just going to be, what sort of revolution is AI?
And if you, if you, if you listen to Demesis Havas and Elon Musk and, and, and all these people, I mean, if they are almost like half right about how much potential there is here that it's the biggest, you know, change the computing since the web, if not much larger than that. Then it's a strange place to be for like the world's most iconic company that has this creative, you know, five decade history behind it to basically not be involved and just be a sort of passive vehicle
for other people's AI systems. On the other hand, it's possible that, you know, they do just sort of ride this out, let every other, every other company spend and just take this sort of Google
Partnership where they have, where like they are literally being paid to be t...
nobody really asks these days why doesn't Apple have their own Google competitor. It's kind of a non-sensical question, and possibly AI is like that. And so I sort of hate to say, time will tell,
“we just don't know, but I think that's the most honest answer. Yeah, trip to your degree.”
Yeah, certainly. I mean, they took their eye off the ball in Siri. And that was never a, you know,
part of the business, a product that they prioritize. And therefore, they weren't really in a position to step into the AI race in a competitive fashion, because it just wasn't a muscle that they built up over time. And as a result, you know, they wound up in this position of getting scared internally about what AI, the threat AI posed to them. The fact that this could be a technological revolution that creates a new operating system that breaks up the kind of the connective tissue between
iOS and the iPhone, that kind of software hardware experience that we're all accustomed to that's part of the iPhone's magic. They were scared by that. And so they threw out their best shot at developing AI. And it just backfired. I mean, they kind of backed into this position of, you know,
“waiting and seeing what will happen in part, because they missed out in the gate with what they”
developed. And as Patrick said, that leaves them in this position of having to wait to see how it will play out rather than actually dictating on their terms what happens to their business and the AI race. Stay tuned for more of this panel off to the break. And by the way, we are heading out on tour at the end of May. So for more info and to get tickets to a show near you, head to profgmail hits tool.com.
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terms and conditions apply hiring. Do it the right way with Indeed. We're back with property markets. So trip, let's talk about the new CEO John Ternes. He's been the head of hardware engineering. He spent 25 years at the company. What do we know about this guy and what do we think of him? Is he the right pick? I mean, John has been an apple pretty much since the embassy of his career. He spent four years at a virtual reality company before
he landed there and he landed in an engineering role and quickly showed himself to be a good manager. He was just really good at working with colleagues, with people. And that is part of the reason that over time he was given more and more responsibility. He was put on a leadership track very early.
And he's had staying power there, in part because he learned how to operate in Tim Cook's apple
in a way that helped him really shine. One of the anecdotes we heard about in our reporting was when Apple was looking at bringing facial recognition to the iPhone. And they were debating after they had done that, whether or not to bring it to some future devices around 2018. And he argued they should wait in part because he didn't think people who would be buying those devices, it was going to be an augmented reality capability. He didn't think people who were buying
those less expensive devices would gravitate to that technology. They should just wait, provide that to people who wanted early technology at a higher-end price point, and then provide it to other people downstream later. And that's kind of speaking Tim Cook's language. You know, it's a very tactical decision and approach to the marketplace. And those type of decisions are what helped him emerge as, yeah, kind of really the obvious candidate to succeed too.
Yeah, it sounds like maybe he's got kind of a conservative approach, which seems like it was also Tim Cook's approach too. Patrick, I mean, you wrote a book on Apple's relationship to China. And it seems as though China is a big part of the story now. I mean, the supply chains are incredibly entrenched in China. They have just huge consumer base in China. It also relates to the company's relationship to the president. I mean, there's all of this geopolitical
“crap that you have to deal with in that role now. It's not just about making cool products and”
selling them and talking about them on a stage with a total heck. What do you make of what his approach will likely be when it comes to China? And also when it comes to politics in general, like what what what's on his plate here? So let me say one thing about John Tarnas and then I'll come back to China. I was talking to someone yesterday who knows Tarnas well and worked with them. And he said, you know, Tarnas actually has more of an
opportunity to be a cowboy here, meaning to shoot from the hip and to be a lot more playful in part because the other announcement yesterday is that Johnny Shruji is being coming
chief hardware officer. So that was a separate press release. Johnny Shruji is the guy who basically
since 2008 has been overseeing Apple Silicon. Apple Silicon is probably the biggest development
“at Apple in the last five years. So, you know, from, I think the iPhone 4 onwards,”
they displaced, you know, Samsung and were designing their own chips for the iPhone. But since 2019, I think it is. They took over the computers as well. So Intel has been totally taken out. Apple has their own design chip studio that has sort of taken over and really put the competition on the back foot. They've even displaced Qualcomm in some of their chips and built that in-house. So Major Major Development Shruji was reported to be thinking of leaving
last year. And so it's interesting that now he's being elevated to the position that didn't exist before because I think it tells me, I mean, trip, I don't know what your spy descend says on this or if you have direct reporting on it. But my sense is that that reporting was probably genuine and that the result of that is that no he's not the CEO, but he's now in the C suite. So he's not just replacing Ternes as the hardware chief. He's getting an elevated role.
Right. And so what this person was telling me was that Ternes will have more leeway to be a cowboy with the understanding that Shruji backs him up and brings the rigor, cleans up whatever mess is made and so forth. So they might have this sort of dynamic duo quite element to it. Is that just to go that? Is that the right move? Does Apple need a cowboy right now? I mean, it sounds from what you're saying and for what trip said, I mean, trip's book is about
“Apple losing its soul. Maybe that's what the company needs. Well, I think trip and I are both”
these people who long for the days of, you know, the 1997 and 2007 decade where Apple just shocked
The world with one more thing year after year.
get, you know, internally debating just myself on is, is that just pure nostalgia that has no place
“in today's Apple is the company just too big to really have that. And I don't know. I think within”
the confines of what Apple is, John Ternes sounds like the sort of guy who actually does can take on a little more risk. Maybe within the Tim Cook organization, he has to be known for that. Certainly, he's not a risk taker in the way that Steve Jobs was, but I don't think he's so averse to it the way that Tim Cook really is. I mean, that's sort of a defining quality of Tim Cook just how conservative. So a common cool he is about it. So I love the idea. I don't know
if this person is right, but they know Ternes and they say that, you know, he's sort of itching to do a lot more. You know, this is someone who plays with GoCarts and engineers and spare time seeing if a titanium GoCard is going to be better than the aluminum one that he has in his garage. That's just not Tim Cook, right? So he's more of a tinkerer. And the fact that he's into racing just sort of tells you a little bit about his temperament, you know, Tim Cook's into hiking.
That is an important detail. I want to return to China for a moment. What's he going to do about China? Are we going to see him giving gold plaques and gifts to the president like we saw with the previous guy? He better. That's the president. Yeah, I mean, so obviously for me,
“you know, this is my issue, this is the thing that I think most about. And the, it basically”
depends on future events. I hate to start stopping to start keeping myself. But with Tim Cook, the issue is that Tim Cook is not leaving the company. He's the executive chairman. And so sort of any journalist with a sense of other corporations, you know, histories has to immediately think, is that brilliance because John is John Turner's needs helping hand and how do you deal with Brussels Beijing and Washington? I mean, how do you deal with Trump? I mean, anyone could use
an internship from Tim Cook on how to do that. Absolutely. But do you have a sort of dual CEO position? Like what happens? You know, like if there's a major world crisis involving China, and Tim Cook has a different decision making process or different, just notion of what should happen, then John Turner's, who makes the call? You know, the lucky thing would just be that they don't have to have that sort of debate. But you know, in the case of Disney, you know,
Bob Eiger steps down and a month later, COVID takes place. You know, and all hell breaks loose.
“And I think within two years or so, Bob Eiger is back at the company. There is many companies who just”
have not been able to nail this structure where the CEO of a long-time company, you know, 15 years in the case of Cook, elevates to executive chairman and is able to really let the new CEO you know, earn their reputation and take different decisions. And, you know, frankly, I think some of the Cook's last 15 years needs to be undone, right? I think they need to be doing far more in India. I think they need to rethink whether they should have bigger operations in Mexico.
But if you're trying to make those decisions and the executive chairman is the very person who put Apple into the current predicament, that is not an easy position to be. So I don't know what
their relationship is, but, you know, it basically just depends on whether it's going to be
a tumultuous global economy in the next five years or a calm one. Yeah. Trif, what do you think success for John Turner's would look like? Like what, what kinds of things would he accomplish that hasn't been accomplished before that would really fund immensely changed the trajectory for the company, but also make investors happy with the company. And perhaps increase the share price. Yeah, I mean, success for John Turner's will, you know, hinge almost entirely on
his ability to navigate this AI transition and make sure that Apple's at the forefront of it. Right. I mean, that's, that's going to be integral to whether or not he succeeds. And one of the things I'll be watching is like, you know, when you talk to people about Apple, the work there, it kind of functions like a family. And, you know, you can kind of, even though it's a publicly traded company, I've often thought of it kind of the same way I've thought of family owned companies.
You have, you know, the, the, the founder who starts a business, the son who takes over the business and takes it to new unprecedented business heights. And then the grandson usually comes along
or the granddaughter and kind of screws it all up. And like, for John, it's going to be critical
not to be don't be the grandson. The third, the third wrong of that latter, right? Like, but that is a very common trajectory for family owned businesses and his ability to avoid that that predicament is going to come down to conquering AI and figuring out how to make Apple important in the AI. Yeah. I totally agree with that. But what's interesting is that the stock didn't react that much. He was down around two or three percent yesterday. And that to me is a big
question. It's like, you've got the guy leaving it probably the most important moment for this company.
The AI, the new technology has arrived.
in that technology. And then he's just leaving. I'm giving it to the grandson. And yet,
investors seem to be somewhat okay with that. I kind of would have expected they would have been more nervous about that. But that's because Tim's still there, right? Tim cooks there, you know, it's providing reassurance to investors. And investors have been of a mixed mind about Apple and AI over the past few years. They're both thrilled that Apple isn't investing in data centers at the same rate and degree that its peers are. They haven't, they've avoided this, you know,
cap-capex arms race. But they're also uneasy about the fact that Apple may be left behind.
“So the fact that the stock didn't move, I think, is more indicative of the comfort of knowing”
Tim Cook is going to still be there. They're training wheels right now. And until those training
wheels come off, I don't think we can really have a firm sense of what investors think of the
company. I don't know about you, Patrick. But yeah, well, they haven't been tested yet. So I mean, in a sense, I'm certainly not an Apple investor, you know, in any way. But I don't think I learned anything yesterday that would cause me to be more optimistic or less optimistic than the company. I mean, John Turner says been like the only person people could even think about for the last two years as the possible successor. I mean, just based on the fact that if you look at like the
senior vice president ranking, like everybody else is nearly Tim Cook's age, so therefore not really a candidate for a 15-year term if that's sort of the now president after two CEOs. And so, you know, being 50 years old, he's just sort of the natural candidate. You know, you're not going to take someone from outside Apple, certainly. And you're not going to pluck some VP. I mean, he was the only person that was sort of actively being groomed. Again, Johnny Shrewd, you might be the
“exception. And I think that's probably why he's a chief hardware officer. But there was really no”
surprise there. People might have been surprised about the timing, but it was reported back in November that this was the likely outcome sometime this year, trip route that as well. I mean, I just, I don't think we learned much yesterday. And one last thing, this year makes a ton of sense. I mean, we're in the 50th anniversary of Apple. We're, you know, they have a product line up that's going to make both men look like geniuses because they have a foldable phone on deck to launch
in September. Tim Cook can say one more thing, you know, John Turner's can come out and explain how the phone works. Like, it is really well scripted. And I think that's part of the reason investors looked at this and said, okay, no big deal. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just adding to the art 11th in the current chairman, he's 75, perfect time to go out. Tim Cook is 65, perfect time to leave this EO position. And if you're going to do a 15 year term, what do you want a 50 year old? Who's
a senior vice president? I mean, the stars aligned for this for sure. Yeah, he's, he's older, but not too old. Nice, nice, nice place, nice time to go. You mentioned 50th anniversary. Both of you guys have studied the history of this company for a long time. Patrick, when you look at the all of the big moments for Apple in Apple's history, starting with Steve Jobs, the Mac, the iPhone, Tim Cook comes along, the expansion to China, now this. Where does this rank for you in terms of
“important moments that define the company? Well, I mean, this is the company that's been around”
50 years and this is only the eighth CEO and, you know, only the third of this century. So it is a
big transition, but I wouldn't say like the moment like this week is actually all that big. There's no drama here. Nothing has really happened. Yeah. It's going to be, the drama is like, you know, like when Trump became president for the first time and then like, people would sort of declare six months in like today. He became president because he'd like bomb the country or something like, we're going to have a ternous moment and that will be sort of the answer to your question. But,
you know, he's not in the role yet. It starts in September and even there, you know, Tim Cook's going to be doing some hand holding. So, you know, I don't know when he's going to be tested, but it certainly hasn't happened yet. So I don't want to sort of draw too much meaning of this particular week. Yeah. But a new CEO at the world's most iconic company, you know, worth $4 trillion. That's clearly a big moment. Waiting for the ternous moment. That's
a good place to end. Patrick McGee, a warwin journalist and author of Apple in China, the Capture of the World's Greatest Company, TripMeckel, Tech Board of the New York Times, author of after Steve, how Apple became a trillion dollar company and lost its sole trip and Patrick. This was awesome. Thanks so much for joining me. Thanks, guys. Thanks for having us. So, the Tim Cook era is officially ending. Before we wrap a quick review of the Apple CEO's career
and his legacy. Tim Cook started at Apple in 1998, after spending five minutes with Steve Jobs, who convinced him to join the company. He was eventually promoted to COO and then in 2011, just weeks before Jobs passed, he was named CEO. He will go down as one of the greatest executives,
Ever.
other words, Tim Cook technically created 11 times more value for shareholders than Steve Jobs himself.
“He also sold more than 3 billion iPhones. That is more than one iPhone for every three people”
on the planet. In addition, he oversaw the rollout of some of Apple's most iconic products, including the Apple AirPods and also the Apple Watch. But his tenure was not without troubles. Most of which came in the latter years. His latest product, the Apple Vision Pro, was a failure.
It sold only half a million units before it was quietly pulled. He also fumbled Apple's AI program,
“which was underwhelming to consumers and also prompted several executives to leave. His greatest”
mistake, however, might have been his embarrassing display of a sequence toward the president. Last August, Cook presented Donald Trump with a gold plaque, and he quickly became the laughing
stock of the internet and really America at large. But Cook's riskiest bet was actually one
that he chose not to stick around for. And that was the decision not to invest in data centers. While the rest of Big Tech geared up to spend nearly a trillion dollars on AI infrastructure, Apple chose to cut its spending. The only Big Tech company in America to do so, which leaves his successor John Turner's in an interesting position. Because while every investor around the world awaits his AI strategy, his plan to make Apple
the multi-trillion dollar winner of the next era of technology, it might be possible that those plans were already made for him. There's no question that Tim Cook was a great even legendary CEO. But his legacy will depend on the following question. Did he leave the company
“on a trajectory for even greater success or did he abandon it when he started to lose the script?”
That is the question for Apple investors today, and only time will answer it. Okay, that's it for today. This episode was produced by Claire Miller and Alison Weiss, edited by Joel Pattern, and engineered by Benjamin Spencer. Our video editor is Brad Williams. Our research team is Dan Chalon. It's about a cancel, Chris Nodon, Hugh and Mia Sovario, and our social producer is Jake McPherson. Thank you for listening to Proftly Markets from Proftly Media.
If you liked what you heard, give us a follow. I'm Ed Alison. I will see you tomorrow.
