(upbeat music)
- Hey, I'm Floor Lichtman and you're listening
to Science Friday. You may have noticed that primate news has been popping off. - Tonight, the baby monkey who has captured the attention and the hearts of the world,
the viral star punch the monkey. - Punches in my cac about seven months old living in a zoo in Japan. He was rejected by his mother, so zookeepers gave him a stuffed animal substitute.
Pictures of punch snuggling with his stuff, he went viral. Families flock to the zoo to see him and now punch updates like whether the monkey has a girlfriend or if he was bullied are a regular feature of ABC news. Why?
“Why do so many people identify with this little monkey?”
And how do primate researchers manage that impulse? Here to talk punch, primate feelings, and our feelings about primates is Dr. Christine Webb, who studies primates and teaches at New York University. She's also the author of the arrogant ape,
the myth of human exceptionalism and why it matters. Christine, thanks for talking with us today. - It's a pleasure to be here. - Your primatologist is this punch story exciting for you or very annoying?
- Well, I've been forced to pay attention to it because I teach undergraduates and their interest in it has gotten me a bit interested because they are so curious about punch, how he's doing, what he's feeling.
So for that reason, I guess I'm okay with it. (laughing) - Well, I mean, millions and millions of people are way more than okay with it. They're obsessed with it with punch.
“Why do you think people can't get enough of this story?”
- Well, as our closest living relatives,
other primates, they've always kind of straddled
this supposed boundary between human and animal. And so many of their behaviors are identifiable to us. They have similar body plans, they're visually dominant and they're a highly social species with very complex social relationships and group structures.
And I think it's our fascination with this latter point, this complex sociality is one of the reasons why punch strikes a chord so much with us. - Yeah, it's interesting, like you hear in the news coverage, you can tell that we're projecting a lot onto this monkey.
Like people are talking about his love life, this new girlfriend or whether or not he's being bullied at the zoo, that projection piece. Does that, what do you make of it? - In science, we have this word, really, it's a taboo
called anthropomorphism, the A-direction, yeah, the A-word. It's seen as a cardinal scientific sin.
“It's when we are projecting human characteristics”
onto other forms of life. And there's a lot to say about whether those projections are real or not if they're merely projections or they're actually reflecting a deeper similarity and continuity between species.
In the cases of our closest living primate relatives, it's often more straightforward and we could use a term like parsimonious, right, to assume that there are shared mental characteristics and experiences between humans and other primates.
This criticism of being anthropomorphic is coming from this idea and science
that we should always defer to the simplest,
most straightforward, and parsimonious explanation. And traditionally in science, that has been to assume that other forms of life lack rich internal worlds, lack rich emotions and cognition and social experiences.
But what the primatologist's friends to wall offer to us is that actually you could argue that the most parsimonious straightforward explanation is to assume continuity among species. Not just in physical forms and characteristics,
but also in mental characteristics, in emotions and relationships and cognitive faculties. So when we're talking about characteristic, let's say like joy or grief or empathy or jealousy, as being anthropomorphic, why are we assuming
that humans have a premium on that capacity and that it's only derivatively not human? We might instead use a term like primatomorphic or mammalomorphic when we're talking about characteristics that are common to one or several species.
- Where did we get that idea that complex emotions are just for people? - It traces back to this idea of human exceptionalism.
This idea that humans are somehow separate
from and superior to other forms of life
and this belief system has a very long and fraught history in Western thought.
“You can trace it all the way back to Greek philosophy”
to Aristotle and through medieval Christianity into the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. And it still certainly has a foothold in modern science because much of what we consider to be science today has a history in Western thought
that intersects with the history of human exceptionalism. - How does this show up in science? I mean, does this create for bad science and how? - One of the main ways I can just speak from my own experience as a primatologist in my field
is that ideas about human uniqueness,
about capacities that separate humans
from other forms of life often stem from studies that will compare the cognitive abilities of human beings to the cognitive abilities of our closest living primate relatives, say chimpanzees. And these studies are often done in captive environments,
not wholly unlike the one where punches kept,
“but maybe even more like a scientific laboratory, right?”
So we're studying these other animals in highly deprived environments and measuring their social cognition or their physical cognition on tasks that are made by humans, right?
They're like plastic puzzle boxes or computer touch screens on things that humans are far more used to than other forms of life. We're stacking the deck against them in these kinds of comparisons
because of the way that we're studying them, the tasks that we're giving them, and then concluding that humans are superior in a particular cognitive faculty.
- So the problem is that we do studies
that are even though we're trying to get away from and through poomorphizing, we're actually doing studies that are very weighted towards our own abilities and then saying that these animals don't measure up.
- Precisely by taking a human centric view of the world, we're not able to accurately and adequately understand other animals' lives and capacities. - At the same time, we're taking a human centric view of the world and we're also not willing
to ascribe human characteristics or complex emotions we associate with humans to other animals. And so in one way, it's a very human point of view and another way we won't let other animals in.
Do you know what I'm saying? - What helps clarify it for me is this idea of human exceptionalism that on some level, we still wanna hold ourselves in higher regard to other forms of life
and that might mean trivializing what other animals are doing and capable of and not understanding them in their own right, in their own unique ways of being and the richness of a way of being that could look entirely different from ours
but be equally complex. - Do we have to consider the possibility that animals have feelings outside of our own? - No, like lots of animals have these crazy sensory abilities that we don't have.
Could they also have interior worlds that we can't even really imagine? - Yeah, I think that's a great point. I mean, we know that other animals can see colors that we can't detect electromagnetic forces and race
so why would we assume that that ability stops
“or that different stops just at sensory capacities?”
Perhaps there are emotional experiences that are wholly unknown to us that other forms of life are experiencing. I'm very open to that possibility. - I guess I'm wondering, do you hear the counter argument
from people that humans are different? We've reshaped this planet in unique ways. We use technology in ways that are different from other organisms, other creatures. Like, is there anything to the argument
that, yeah, we are different from other animals? - Absolutely, just as every animal is different from every animal. I mean, I would not necessarily argue against this idea of human uniqueness, right?
I would just say that many of the characteristics that we long thought made humans unique have been found in other forms of life, right? Or those same arguments about human uniqueness
Have been used to exclude an array of human beings
who don't fit the sort of ideal human archetype.
“But if we want to stress a narrative of human uniqueness,”
I'm fine with that. So long as we do so for all forms of life, right? Every form of life has developed specific characteristics adapted to a particular ecological niche. The difference between human uniqueness
and something like human exceptionalism
is that human exceptionalism suggests
that what is distinctive about humans, what is unique about humans, is somehow more worthy than the distinctive features of other forms of life. - Yeah, that's so interesting.
And I wonder if that's just sort of like an intrinsic challenge of science.
Science is done by people and how, you know,
like I think we can work against it, but I guess I wonder how much of that is just sort of having some humility about the fact that it's people doing experiments and so we're gonna be working through a human lens
to some degree.
“- Absolutely, I mean, I think that's true”
of science in general, not just with respect to this particular bias of human exceptionalism, but to all different forms of biases. I mean, we like to think that science operates in isolation from bias,
but if we were just more open and honest about the fact that science is not value-free and that cultural ideas and norms can affect science just like it can affect any other way of knowing and method of knowing,
“then I think we would actually do better science”
if we're just more forthcoming about that with ourselves and with each other. - Dr. Christine Webb studies primates and teaches at New York University. Thanks for joining us today.
- Thank you, it's been pleasure. - This episode was produced by a net-highest. If you think that nerdy science shows that talk about viral monkeys should also go viral, we invite you to tell your friends about science Friday.
It really does help, please spread the word. Thank you for listening, I'm Floor Lichtman. (upbeat music)
