Key Change: Baz Luhrmann on "Time After Time."

This is key change, where I talk to fascinating people about the music that change their lives. My guest is Baz Lerman, the award-winning director whose films include Mulan Rouge, Strictly Ballroom, The Great Gatsby, Elvis, and Romeo and Juliet. His newest film is Epic, Elvis Presley and Concer, a critically acclaimed documentary about Elvis that's playing right now in theaters and in IMAX. Before becoming a massively successful film director, Baz began his show-based career as an actor and as a ballroom dancer in Australia.

His first film was Strictly Ballroom, which came out in 1992, and became one of the highest grossing Australian films of all time.

It was originally a play, and there's a song in that film that was part of the story all the way back when it was first performed on stage.

“And that's what Baz and I talked about for this episode.”

There are quite a few songs that have changed my life, but no song really changed the trajectory of my life. More than time after time by sitting low. I'm so thrilled that you picked time after time, because that is already a song that I associate with you, because of Strictly Ballroom. Well, you know what, and growing up in a tiny country town, our working class theater was a competitive ballroom dancing. Do you feel like you're background in ballroom dancing, you're training when you were younger, affected the way that you listened to music?

Yes, it's the answer. When we were very young, my dad was in the Vietnam War. When he came back in Hong Kong, he loved music, and he had this thing called an "a Kai" real-to-real type recorder. It was the latest technology, and this was, I would have been like five or something.

It was amazing because he also had a tape, which was kind of a sample tape of all sorts of music.

And on it was classical music, Tijuana brass in the Beatles. And then we moved away to the country, and we were very isolated.

“And so that tape I just played over and over again, and I think it instilled in me a lack of prejudice about kinds of music.”

It was just music. I even have my own radio station, like we used the A Kai, and I got a record player. And I put speakers outside the gas station, and then I'd be broadcasting radio, M-O-B-I-L. And now let's play that crazy hit by John Farnham. One is the loniest number. And I did that for about a week, only because I only had one record. So I've led over and over again. I had a lot of news broadcasting because read the paper, really.

Yeah, how old were you at this point? I was probably 10. Yeah. And where was this? Where were you growing up? This creek is like northern New South Wales, really in giant timber land country.

We were on the side of the highway, and we were very isolated. We had a big farm, and we also ran the local cinema. But the town itself had five houses in it, six houses.

“At that age, had you already started borrowing the thing?”

Yes, it started with me finding a flyer on the ground of a bus. And then I went to the local dance hall, which was, again, everything was an hour away. Yeah, and I started doing it. And so I went with the ballroom dancing. What was great about that was you got the dance and you went to local competitions. But you dressed up in tails.

And so it was kind of fascinating because everyone was probably like that might. But they were dressed like they were in the 19th century. And then we were teenagers. And there was great argument between my mother and my father. It'd be split up. And as I'm going, I just ran away.

I ended up in the city. And then I started joining the local theatre group and acting. And then I actually got into amateur theatre.

I was just basically not turning up at school.

And I auditioned for neither the National Institute of Germanic Art. I mean, okay, plant it with them. It gives them when it's our national drama skydiving. And I was devastated. I thought, hey, this is not meant to happen. I meant to get in.

I did reconnect with my mom. I was like, look, shouldn't you think about, you know, your dance really well. What about choreography? Also, I was like that, you know. Anyway, the best I ever had in my life was I came home from graduation day.

And the phone rang and it's going to be said, listen, we want you to be in this movie. Obviously, duty Davis for one of the great actors of the world. And I mean, I'm only paying you $2,000 a week. Which was that fortune to me. So I mean, yep, I'll do that.

And I moved out and I did the movie in a four-man theater company. And then I had an opera company because I loved music.

And I tried to get in a night or eventually I became so well known.

“That actually night I said, look, you're a terrible auditioner.”

Which is why I don't audition actors. I do workshops because I really realized how the process or auditioning is so. Can really disarm you. So they said, look, turn up and you'll get in. So I turned up, I got in.

And while we were there, one of the programs was devising. Devising is where actors get together. And they come up with an idea. You don't do a written play. And when it actually writes the play.

I was never very good at sitting down just staring at the page.

I do now. But I still find a kind of traumatising. And which is why I like to write with people. But I can't sit there and write. But what I came up with is sort of, okay, the play was 40 minutes.

“So we had an idea I had the idea about the Greek myth.”

Was there a Greek myth in particular? Yes. I spliced together both triumph over oppression, which is a primary Greek ideal. And with the ugly duckling myth actually. And the ugly duckling myth or fairy tale is misunderstood.

It's not that you sort of take off your glasses and become a dream of. A swan's egg is accidentally put amidst a lot of eggs by ducks. And so when this duck is born, everyone goes to your weird, you're different. The duck doesn't really know that they're actually born as swan. And that is about self revelation, revealing who you really are.

And growing on that road as opposed to imposing or having opposed upon you, who the world wants you to be. So I spliced them together. Then we did think of the hot chair. So I got every actor to sit in a chair and we could ask so many questions about their life.

You know, it was kind of a bit psychologically intense. And they would get a sense of what was really meaningful to them. And we realized in doing that we were all very, very subconsciously oppressed about the cold war. So we thought of using the triumph over oppression myth. This idea that the older generation were telling you, there's only one way to charge our child.

And you got to stick by the rules and, you know, they were running the world and we couldn't do anything. And so by splicing the two myths together, I sort of came up with a rough structure. And then this idea of setting it in the world of born dancing, where you had this oppressive guy called Barry V. And the Federation. And the Federation decided the rules, but there was a young dancer.

And he was a champion. But he started to make up his own rules, his own dances, his own steps. And he suddenly got shut down because people were loving his creativity.

And the outside girl, she had been watching him and thinking, he's amazing.

But no one liked that she was terrible. And so secretly a name, they're creating their own choreography to go to the competition. He's a simple plot. And there was a kind of moment where the kind of champion lead character, Scott Aestings. Everyone wants to dance with him. But he was breaking the rules by doing his own creativity.

The whole thing was a metaphor really for creativity. And then the sort of bespeckled outside a girl.

“She was the sort of wolf la, I think we used to call it Jenny Wolf la, actually.”

She's watching him and it's very much, you know, the alpha male is teaching the Wolf la girl how to be great. I was thinking, what would the musical construct be? And I needed this kind of song. I didn't have any money.

But I went to, I guess, somewhere we went and bought a cheap cassette player. In those days, it was a cassette player. And I was in there. And the radio was on.

And this brand, his single dropped, as always having this thought.

While I was buying a cassette player. You know? And it was this new punkish girl dropped a song called "Time After Time". And it came on, you know, you know, you know, you know, you think of you. Time after time.

I went, that's it. That's the song. I didn't even know it was Sydney. More for the time. So I rushed, got that cassette, went back to the rehearsal room, played it.

Everyone went like, this is it. The moment when time after time appears. How far along into the devising had you got? We were in the middle of actually building it. And I didn't have a middle.

So I brought the song in. And I went, why don't we use the song to do like a film montage. But let's do it as a piece of theatre. Yeah. And we choreographed the middle sequence to that.

So it's a very simple, breathtaking device where you're doing one scene. And just by, because it was an open black glass floor, you just spin on the chorus.

So they sort of did it. And she wasn't a good.

And then it's spin and time passed.

“It was very bryctic in the way we did it.”

In the song, there's a touch-up hit it. There's a touch-up hit it. There's a touch-up hit it. But in the middle, the rest of the cast got together as a group. And they would move in of sort of military formation across the stage.

And they would do a group in military formation where their heads were flicking and turning. As if they were creating a sense that time was passing. And they were gossiping about what strange things were happening to Scott Hastings. And that friend go, that friend go hasn't been sitting around. Yeah.

Well, the music of time after time had to fit the idea of them doing this sort of dancing montage. Was it easy to imagine that song, which is kind of like a slower ballad as the score essentially for this moment of them? I don't know nothing about ballroom dancing. Yeah.

And I wasn't doing this because actually, if you look at the rhythm of it,

it actually is in touch-out time. And that sequence was touch-out. But the interesting thing about the boring dancing touch-out is that it also works on the same full full rhythm if you have the time as a rumble. Right?

“So you could dance both a rumble to it and a touch-out.”

So we were dancing a slow touch-out that then converted into a rumble. But then they had this double time rhythm. So the moment I heard it, I just went like, "That's it." And it was then about constructing this sequence. They gave you a montage time passing feeling, him teaching her,

and a sense of gossip because they were changing. Yeah. And it was kind of just one of those epiphany moments a bit like, "How I discovered the fish tank idea in Germany by being in a night club in Miami where I was riding in."

And I went to the bathroom and I came out and I'm washing my hands. And there's a beautiful fish tank above that way of wash hands. And I looked through and there was a girl coming ahead. And I went, "That's it." You know?

Like things aren't born perfectly. And when you work with others and I'm a serial collaborator, you shape up, you feel, you work off each other. Did you feel like the lyrics connected to this theme of creativity that's in the story of strictly speaking?

Yes. Yes. It was almost as it was written for us. It was how accurate it seemed. And in a way, when you're devising a plot,

the funny thing is everyone in theatre or film, creativity fundamentally when it's collaborative. All that sort of hardy-strong ego is to falls away. And in the act of creating you or there for each other and you're there to support, to catch, to be there.

And you lift each other up because you're serving something higher. And that is the story and the audience. By conversation with Baz Lerman, continues after this. [Music]

So then about a year later, I have an theatre company. It was a very high profile position. I was the artistic director. So I broke backstrix boredom.

And a lovely man came and saw it. Ta da, what a beautiful man. He said, I'm starting a film company. I would like to get the rights to your play to make a film.

I said, no, I'm going to direct it. And he looked at me and, okay. And he said, I'm going to finance it. We suddenly got the financing. And then tragically he died.

And the film was over. But his wife stepped in and said, no, my husband knows talent. I'm going to back you. We shoot the movie. We play the movie.

The one distributed has the movie. He sees it and says, this is the worst movie I've ever seen. You've ruined a Pat Bishop's career. I go up the coast. I shave off my long black curly head.

Get a phone call from a guy. You know, in a trailer park. And this is my name. It's beer. I am the director of the Cannes Film Festival.

I have seen your boredom dancing. And I'd like to offer you a 12-clock screening boom, boom, boom, boom. We end up going, we screen it. And as this sort of crowd squashed in around me,

“I always remember the security guard grabs him by that.”

And he says, Monsieur, from this day on the life

would never be the same again.

And he was right. So did time after time stay in all those different versions as you took it from NIDA. Onward was always in the record was. But as soon as I did the film,

we recorded a new cover of it with lead actress,

What prompted that? What made you decide to do not choose each other? I thought that there was a bit of a twist because they were just shooting through Sony. But it was a music right to shoot.

It might have been. But tell that, but actually under record company. But music. Including HDC. So they had enough muscle.

They cut some sort of deal because HDC is so huge. Once it was decided this new version of time after time was going to be made. Since you'd already shot the film, did it have to be as close to the original

Cindy Lopper version as possible?

“Or did you have ideas for how you might want it to be different?”

In the recorded version, you wanted it to be a duet. So you have a boy negotiating it. Because it is about a relationship and the fundamental relationship,

although it's building creativity, is if you follow our catcher, I will be waiting. I'll be there. Time after time.

How did you discover that terror could sing well enough to record the song? Tara was in my ensemble company. She was a very outstanding unacto. And so we had to do various things.

So I knew she could sing. And actually we went through the audition process who should play the lead in strictly ballroom. And I'd have to say Craig Pierce, who's my bestie and, you know, we wrote the screenplay together.

And anyway, they fell in love. Craig and Tara fell in love. Yeah. Oh, that children. So he was very much, look, why didn't we try

and convince him the tower should play the role? And we got Tara crack at it.

“And I, they look, I really think she is the best of it.”

I really think she is the best. So she got the role. Well, I was wondering about the significance of you having had this experience with auditioning.

And then setting this crucial moment of the film,

this moment where she finally gets to dance with Scott for the first time with this song, the pressure of the audition is built into the story. I was wondering if you felt like you were consciously putting that part of yourself into the plot.

I'm not sure it's even just auditioning. I think it's bigger than that. I think it's about creativity and a fundamental understanding that I just can't do it. The way that it's being prescribed is a system

and a process. So I couldn't get into drama school. Like everybody else by turning up and doing a bit of Beckett. I had to get in by creating so much other energy.

And that's the same with the way I make movies or tell stories. I wish I was a shooter. I'd make a lot more movies. A lot quicker I'd probably be a lot wealthier.

I mean, I'm not poor. I'm not without a few biscuits.

But I've always had to find my own process, my own way.

And that leads to my own way of telling stories and whether you like it or not. I've always accepted that what comes with that is that you're not going to be embraced by the larger system or process that I'm always going to have to be.

I'm more your friend. I'm a baby Scott, but I'm your friend as well. I always put a bit of, I don't consciously do it.

“But I think that I don't know why people point out,”

you know you do tell the same story over and over again. The funny thing is, you can pretty much cast any of my movies with the same cast. There's always a sort of kindly grandmother. And there's always a sort of, you know,

rather flared overload with a very five or zeedler or it's the Colonel Tompaka. There's some patterns in there. Yeah. It's our consciously, it was pretty much subconsciously

self-medicating us against something that's mocked them deeply in childhood. I, of course, I need a Cindy Lopper version. But in my house in the '90s, the version of Time After Time that we listened to

was the version from Strictly Ballroom. Really? Yeah, my sister, it was one of my sister's first cities. And I'm amazed by that because, you know what, the film did well.

Mirror Max ultimately bought the film. I mean, the film ultimately did very well around the world. Amazing thing that was like number one in the UK. But then Sony really didn't push the soundtrack. I was really disappointed.

We did the cover.

And always remember they did this nasty little thing in the

cassettes where they just took the album cover. And stuck it on the cassettes with blue. And that's right. It's very involved in everything with my music. Yeah.

I just went like this. I'm gonna be involved in Taiwan, packaging, marketing, everything.

I'm amazed. You had the soundtrack. Yeah, my sister saw Strictly Ballroom. She was in high school. Yeah.

In Massachusetts, she came home. She saw it with her friend. I think I was too young to see it.

“You know, or something, I just didn't go to the movies that much at that age.”

But she came home. She loved it. She bought the soundtrack.

And my first experience with the movie before I ever saw it

was just listening to the soundtrack. She's like in 1992. That's amazing. And it went to number one. And it was a hit.

And it became a kind of soundtrack of Strictly Ballroom. And I guess the thing about that track is that, I mean, that's 40 years ago or something. But the point about the song is that every now and then in life, I'll be somewhere.

And I'll just hear it at a distance. And it's just thematically. If you fall, I will catch you. I will be waiting. Time off the time.

And it's always given me a sense of, you know, somehow.

It's a little touched on a little safety net. It's just out there. It was a piece of music. Thank you so much. Cut.

I'd like to say, yeah. (laughs) Bazlerman's new movie, epic. Elvis Presley in concert. Isn't theaters now.

“Visit songexploader.net/keychange for more key change episodes.”

And for a playlist with all the music that's been discussed on this show. This episode was produced by me, Craig Eley and Mary Dolan, with production assistants from Tiger Biscope. Songexploader is a proud member of Radio Topia from PRX, and at work of independent, listener-supported,

hard-to-stone podcasts. You can learn more about our shows at radiotopia.fm. And if you'd like to hear more from me, you can subscribe to my newsletter. You can find a link to it on the Songexploader website.

You can also get a Songexploader t-shirt at songexploader.net/sharp. I'm Rishi Kesh, your way. Thanks for listening. Radio Topia from PRX.

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