Selects: How Spiritualism Works

Guaranteed Human. Hey, I'm Jay Shetty, host of The Unpurpose Podcast. I'm joined by Luke Combs, award-winning country music artist, and one of the most authentic voices in music today.

The guy that says he's always going to be there

and that will do anything to be there is the only guy that's not there. No matter what, I'm going to prioritize my wife and my children. I dread the conversation with my son. Listen to Unpurpose with Jay Shetty on the "I Heart Radio" app,

Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, it's Joe Interestine, host of The Spirit Jotter Podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And today, I'm talking with my dear friend, Christian Williams.

“It can change you in the best way possible,”

dance with the change, dance with the breakdowns, and the embodiment of Pisces intuition, with capricorn power moves. Just so I'm like delusionally proud of my chart. Listen to the Spirit Jotter Podcast, starting on February 24th on the "I Heart Radio" app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast.

I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast "Doubt,"

the case of Lucy Letby, we unpack the story of an unimaginable tragedy that gripped the UK in 2023. But what if we didn't get the whole story? How did it spin face to face?

The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapsed. What if the truth was disguised by a story we chose to believe? Oh my God, I think she might be innocent. Listen to doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, on the "I Heart Radio" app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, guys, it's me, Earl Pell Josh, and for this week's "Select," I've chosen our 2020 episode on "Spiritualism,"

“which, as you might be able to tell from the first couple minutes,”

was recorded during the height of the COVID pandemic. That's not why I chose this one.

I chose it because it's been coming up a lot lately

for some reason, in episode after episode, which I've taken as a sign to choose this as a "Select." But it's also kind of made me think about all of the back and forth I've gone through in my life is there in afterlife?

Is there not an afterlife? Who knows? That's where I'm at right now, who knows? So maybe listen to this episode about the spiritualism movement and see what you think about the whole thing.

Enjoy! - Welcome to "Stuff You Should Know." A production of "I Heart Radio." - Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, there's Charles W. Chuck Brian

over there's somewhere in the heart of darkness. I'm in the office, dude. - Where? I hear your voice, Chuck, but I can't see you. - Yeah, I mean, I don't know why people need to know the behind-the-scenes things, but home recording

provides some challenges and I was getting pretty frustrated. So I was like, you know what? I'm gonna go to the studio. - Yep. - Because I know it'll sound great in here.

- Yeah. - And I know there won't be dogs or children. And everyone should feel good about it because I have not seen another human being. - Yeah.

- In the building. - Didn't know the security guard. - Didn't know security guard tried to run you off the road when you were parking. - He didn't try, he stopped me literally

“and the parking lot was like, what are you doing here?”

I was like, I'm going to my job. And he said, okay, he said, stay home, save lives. - But before we left, I mean, apparently since I left, they have these, there's a bottle of microphone sanitizer, whoa.

- There are headphone sanitized or not sanitized, but just disposable headphone covers, sweet. And I feel more safe here than I do at my house. - So what? - Microphone sanitizer that sounds really made up.

- Yeah, it's, oh, go ahead and buzz market. No, I won't because it smells bad. I didn't want to buzz market and then say it smells bad. It's Apple flavor. - Whoa.

Would make Emily just like turn over in her bed. - It's a good, jolly rancher flavor, not the best scent though. - I hate it when they add scent to stuff that doesn't need scent. - Yeah, I agree.

- Try finding an unsented garbage bag these days. - It's tough too. - Yeah, man, every single one of them, I even got some that said unsented and it still smells like something.

- You've missed it in parentheses underneath this has mostly, at 99% unsented. - All right, we can't help ourselves. - 1% Rosemary. - Well, I don't have my over the ear headphones right now.

I just have ear buzz. So I'm sorry. - Look, one of you is long scarves wrapped around my head twice

through my microphone.

- You either look like Lawrence of Arabia

or like you just wandered in with a head injury. - Yeah, I had to, it kept slipping off with the Lawrence of Arabia look. So I had to do it the other way around. So now it looks like I have a 19th century toothache.

- Okay, oh man, to me another picture. - It's not very comfortable. My Adam's apple is being pressed toward the back of my throat right now.

“- Yeah, what was the deal with that whole toothache thing?”

Like was there ice in there or something? Or was it just like I'd just tie their chin shut and it'll help. - Knowing that era, there were probably some sort of razor blade and a heroin concoction that would just scrape the area where the tooth was and inject you with dope

to keep you from complaining. - Dr. Pain's new chin wrap, now with more leeches. - Right, from the makers of microphone sanitizer. - All right, let's get into this. - And we've already been goofing around for too long.

- Fine, fine, just get this over with. - Let's get serious and talk about spiritualism, shall we? - This is a great, great job by Grabster, great idea by you. - And it'll be a great episode. - Yeah, Grabster, we asked him to help us out with this.

So we put together a world-class article for us. And when we asked him, we said, "Hey, how about spiritualism?" He goes, "My brother wrote his dissertation on that, "she'd be simple."

- Right, I mean, he just forwarded his that.

- Right, it didn't even like erase his brother's first name.

He just did a strike through and wrote, "Ed after." - Easy money. So it is like a really, really interesting phenomenon

“and something I think we kind of take for granted”

because it pops up everywhere in our world and pop culture. I mean, it's just a part of everything from crystal balls to stances to weegee boards, to terror parties. - All of this stuff, movies, yeah.

As a matter of fact, I ran across, so you know, Dan Acrode's huge into UFOs, right? - I didn't know that actually. - He's also enormous into spirits and ghosts. It's actually one of the impetus's,

yeah, I think so, of him writing Ghostbusters. He's actually a fourth generation spiritualist with a capital S, like the church spiritualism. He was raised that way, his father, grandfather, and great grandfather were all spiritualists

and that's how he was raised as well. So it does just kind of, it's so permeated our culture.

“It's weird to think of a time when it wasn't there,”

but there actually was this period starting in right about in the middle of the 19th century, going well into the 20th century

where there was a movement that basically said

the spirit world is there. It exists when you die your personality survives and some people actually have a talent for communicating with the spirits in the spirit world and we're going to start doing that.

And that was spiritualism, the spiritualist movement. - Yeah, and Ed pointed out which we should as well that ghosts and things like that and ghost stories, they had been around since people have been around. Everyone, since the dawn of humankind

is tried to figure out what happens after you die to people visit, do they take on other forms or whatever. So that's different than what we were talking about. What we were talking about is spiritualism and that it became a big scam

in way to get money out of people who are in pain for a friend or loved one's death. - Sadly, yeah, for sure. But there is like a thread through there where this same era, the same period in this belief

and communicating with the spirits and the idea that you could go to a saons and talk to your dead loved one or whatever. It produced this other group of people who said, yes, there are tons of fraudsters

and hucksters out there who are taking advantage of this. But there's also this real version of it, actually does exist. And we're gonna apply this newfangled thing called science to investigate it. And that produced that era of people like Charles Fort

or Harry Price who visited the Borley Rectorie the most haunted place in England. Or Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. - Like how many guys? - I know. - I'm trying not a new version. - I like it.

- These guys, they believed in this stuff

but they also believed in the possibility of applying science to it.

And even if science couldn't explain it, it didn't mean that it didn't exist. And then there was another group who were, what we would recognize today is pure skeptics, like the James Randies of the Day

who all followed in the footsteps of Harry Houdini as we'll see, who kind of created this. So you had hucksters, believers who were skeptical and genuine pure skeptics who believed none of it was correct. - Yeah, and what I mentioned before,

like all the previous attempts to do stuff like this, pre-mid 1800s and largely the Northeast United States, it was more religious like prophets and shaman and stuff like that. Spiritualism was the birth of the Madame Clios of the World.

- No, yeah, Ed refers to it as a democratization. And that's one way to look at it, but it was the idea that, hey, if you are chosen and you are special, you know,

“it's not like you have to be some religious leader,”

you can just be a regular person with the gift. - Exactly, yeah, which was a huge sea change.

And there are basically a few things

that kind of came together for this mentality, this fertile kind of imagination of this pocket of America and Western New York, where all of this began to kind of take shape. And one of those things was the frontier,

the frontier mentality, the historian Frederick Jackson Turner called it the significance of the frontier in American history. And he basically said, man, the people who are living out there on the frontier,

they're living on the edge of civilization, the leading edge, right? Right beyond that, what they're coming up against, and this is highly debatable because part of what they were coming up against

was Native America, it just wasn't a civilization in the form that any European had ever encountered before. But the idea was that the people

“who were living on the frontier and expanding westward”

were basically being forced just by virtue of having to survive under these weird conditions outside of culture and civilization in the European sense that they were having to abandon that culture and basically make it up as they went along

and recreate a new culture from the frontier and that that just kind of threw the rules out the window. Yeah, this is one of my favorite things when we do topics that when you can look back at a movement and point to factors

that at any other time in history, if just one of these might not have taken, you know, might not have influenced, that it might not have happened at all.

There's something about that I've always really loved

and this is a perfect example. The frontier life is one, religious fervor is another and specifically in New York in the 1800s, people were really caught up on this religious fervor and it kind of went from town to town

and there was no big religious authorities in the area or out on the frontier, they had no structured hierarchy of religion and so again, they could just make up stuff and I'm not saying that's not tied to this next sentence 'cause I don't wanna turn anyone off

but a lot of religions sprang out from this region during that time like militarism and Mormonism and Quakers and Shakers kind of had a resurgence basically as shot in the arm just because of this fervor going on at the time.

- And I couldn't quite put where militarism

“why it seemed so familiar and then I remember that”

that was the woman who gave birth eventually to the seventh day Adventists and that popped up in the Kellogg episode, remember? - Yeah, yeah. - Millorism was where it all started

but that was and that really kind of indicates and I love it when things just things we talked about before like having the more context from something else but that kind of goes to show you like this is the kind of place where somebody could be like,

I'm in contact with the spirits or Jesus came and hung out with me or whatever and this is what I know and what I've been told so let's start a religion based on it and not even necessarily just religions too

but also like social movements like utopian societies where in two year food, 20 times so you'll poopies here. - Exactly. Or women have equal rights as men which is just completely radical

or how about 50 of us lived together and just by the fact that we all lived together we're married according to this utopian society. Just whatever you wanted to do, you kind of could because the frontier

through the rules out the window or at the very least cultural traditions that most people are raised into when that's not there, people make up their own. - Yeah, for sure.

or we haven't talked about yet was science

“and you talked a little bit about science at the beginning”

but the idea that in the middle of the industrial revolution when we're really learning a lot more than we ever have about science and things like electromagnetism and things that you can't see but science is saying, oh it's there,

this kind of fed the spiritualist movement because that's something else that you can't see that other people are saying is there they're like, hey, if science is saying there are things up there we can't quite explain

but trust me it's real, then why should and I believe this stuff too? - Yeah, or, well, this electromagnetism, maybe that actually explains how spirit survive after it was a really wide open time

as far as, you know,

acceptance of possibilities rather than no science

has said this is not possible or it can't explain this or you can't see it with your own eyes so it won't, it doesn't, it doesn't drive. Like there was a lot more willingness among people who were scientifically minded

to say, well, maybe this is a good explanation of that, let's investigate. - Yeah, the birth of science in medicine was a really crazy time. - It really was, really was.

- So should we take a break? - Yes, come on man.

“- Yes, I think your beard holster is on too tight.”

(laughing) - I haven't been able to feel my nose for about 15 minutes. - All right, we'll go. Rub your nose and bring some feeling back and we'll talk about some of the further actualists.

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Nice.

“And there was actually, so there was a bunch of factors”

that led to the beginning of all of this,

including there was one that I also came across that we need to mention a guy named Andrew Jackson Davis, who combined the ideas of the German hypnotist Franz Mesmer with the Swedish philosopher of the soul, Emmanuel Swedenborg.

They were both 18th century. He kind of brought him together. He was a bit of a nobody, but he emerged very, very soon after the Fox Sisters became celebrities as a founder of the spiritualist movement.

Almost like he was doing it off in isolation at the same time that all of us began. - Yeah, so the Fox Sisters figure into this really quite largely. And you can even pinpoint a date

to what you might consider the birth of the modern American spiritualist movement.

It is March 31, 1848, in Hyde'sville, New York,

near Rochester, at a farm, this Fox family live there. Real people, not a family of cute little bread for fuzzy creatures.

“- Voice by George Clooney, yeah, exactly.”

Mr. Mrs. Fox had three daughters, actually. One was much older, her name was Leia. She was 19 and 23 years older. - Why was that funny? - Because I saw a picture of her,

and she's like the spitting image of Jeffrey Ross. - You got to look her up. Jeffrey Ross was wearing a bomb. - It's what Leia Fox looked like. - I didn't see, I saw the picture of the three of 'em,

and I didn't get a good close up. That's an unfortunate look for him and her. - Yeah, anybody really. - And I think he would admit that, too. - Oh, yeah.

- He's doing all right though. - What if he had really thin skin over a master? He like couldn't take a joke against him. - Have you seen that bump in Mike's show? It's pretty good.

- No, is that the roast competition thing? - Yeah, he and David tell just sit there and roast people, it's really good. - And I used to love David Tell back in the day. - He has just turned into like the weird,

like comedy genius friend that Jeffrey Ross has. And it shines through in this. - Awesome, don't check it out. - So the Fox family, older daughter Leia was 19 and 23 years older than younger Kate and Maggie,

or I guess Maggie and Kate, if you're going in that order. And on that night, a March 31st, 1848, they heard these rapping knocking sounds and they didn't know where it was coming from. And that kind of kick started this whole thing

in a weird way, this lead and we'll talk about the more specifics but in a weird way, this lead to them eventually saying, "Wait a minute, we can make some money "if we convince people that young Kate and Maggie "are a conduit to the other side."

- Yeah, the thing is, it went from, you know, like, oh, there's a ghost rapping or knocking, like a poultry guy's kind of thing too. This ghost will respond to questions from the sisters

“through rapping and knocking, like how old is Maggie?”

And it would rap like 15 times or something like that. And that really caught a lot of people's attention. And Maggie and Kate moved in with Leia and apparently from what I read, it was Leia whose idea was to take the show

on the road, try to scan people out of money. It was not a super great person from what I read. - Yeah, I just, sorry, I was thinking of a rapping ghost and, all right, it's just got sidetracked from the ghost. - I'm the ghost George Washington, I'm here to say,

"I love fruity pebbles and a major way." - You know, it was funny, I was gonna do that exact same thing but for the Fox family, that's like, the go-to rapper, guys like us. - Oh, it totally, guys, you can't rap.

- Yeah, I'm here to say something, something, something, and it's something way. - The Zach Morris method, I think, is what that is. - I wonder if that's based on an actual rap, I guess there was one at some point that really did that, right?

- Yeah, I think Blondie was the one, pop you right then. (both laughing) - My name is Blondie, I'm here to say I'm gonna try rap 'cause it's popular today. - Exactly.

- So, what were you saying? I was laughing, I didn't even notice, I'm sorry.

- Oh, oh, just that, it was basically,

I was laying at Leah's feet for corrupting the younger sisters. - Yeah, she ended up managing them as a unit, I think later on, if I'm not mistaken, but there aren't great records of everything going on at the time but the idea was that Kate and Maggie were the ones,

it wasn't really her parents, but they're the ones who could actually communicate with his barn spirit. And so they said, you know what, they not only can talk to this spirit, media starts getting a hold of these stories,

and obviously back then it was a very big deal

with not a lot else going on.

“But they moved and would go away to other places”

and said wherever they go, ghosts are talking to them. So you guys, my daughters are talented and gifted, they're not just talking to the, what we think is a murder victim from our previous house. - Right, right, which just changed everything.

And also, rather suspiciously, Leah suddenly realized that she was able to communicate with spirits too. So all three of the sisters were able to, but yeah, not just that one murder victim in their house that had been the original ghost, but just about any ghost.

And this was the beginning of the spiritualist movement.

A basically a trink by a couple of teenage girls

that got way out of hand really fast. - Yeah, and so what do they do? They start having these private sessions where people would pay money, and they would wear these big long dresses

that were in fashion at the time, and they would, no one's exactly sure the exact mechanism, but they would do some sort of toe knocking, or something where they couldn't be seen. And that was the more code that they said was the ghost speaking to them.

- So it's really, they had like a little wooden stool under the table with them, and they would take off their shoes, served tissueously. And from what I can gather, they could pop their knuckle of their toe,

up and down with enough force that it would make an a thud on that wooden stool.

- That's creepy, and in and of itself.

- It was. - Yeah, they should have just been like, forget all this spirit. So much this weird thing, yeah. But that was the phantom knocking,

and we know that because Maggie later on confessed to the New York tribute, maybe, or the post one of them, and said like this is how we did it, actually in an effort to take her sister, Leah down,

but it ended up taking the spiritualist movement down and in large part. But that was it, like thumping your knuckle on a wooden stool. They did this for 40 years.

They made a living around the world doing that and created a new religion from it.

- Yeah, and by the time the spiritualism

fads sort of died away, the two younger sisters were, and she recanted that confession, by the way, but everyone's like, yeah, you already said it. You tried. - Right.

- But the two younger sisters and Maggie, especially were in pretty bad shape with alcoholism, and they died sort of in a call, your brothers, Esquay, very quietly, and fairly destitute in New York City in the 1890s.

- And trapped under newspapers. - Maybe. - But no, they had very interesting, but also very sad lives. Like, I think Maggie married a skeptic,

and he died. - Not a good move. - Right, he died. He talked to her out of doing spiritualism, but she went back after he died.

Kate married another spiritualist, and she had a huge career touring the world as a spiritualist, made a lot of money, but apparently lost it all. And Leah, again, was just kind of,

I guess a bit of a villain in this story. Where's that movie, man? - I was wondering the exact same thing.

“It's crazy, it hasn't been made 50 times already, you know?”

- Yeah, that would be pretty cool. I couldn't even find a good documentary on it. - Oh, yeah. - On them, at least. I'm sure they're plenty on that they're featured in,

but give me those fox sisters. - No matter how you look at it too, whether you look at it from the aspect of a believer, who thinks like, this is where it all started, these two sisters.

And there's plenty of reasons to believe if you're a credulous person, or confiding as Mark Twain would put it, that, you know, like the Andrew Jackson Davis guy who kind of started this thing on his own,

supposedly wrote on March 31, 1848 that spirit came to him and said the work has begun. We just started something over here, and then later found out about the fox sisters. Like there's all sorts of stuff you can believe.

And so it's interesting from that respect, but also if you're just a pure dyed in the wool skeptic, who do not believe in any kind of afterlife or soul, or anything like that, it's equally interesting. And it's totally different way that this whole,

“like almost century law and movement started from that, you know?”

- Yeah, it's crazy. - That's just love, I love this whole story. - So it's sweeping the nation at this point by the 1850s, and we're gonna go over some of the different things that they would do,

with the other side, to fake communicate with the other side.

- All right.

“The first one is channelling, and these would be trans mediums.”

So this is like when you've seen in a movie, when someone is just talking like I am in my regular voice, and I'm entering the trans, and I'm doing a lot of showy things to kind of get people, you know, pretty pumped up. I feel like there's been in their money well.

- You give me pumped up, I'll tell you that. - And all of a sudden, you know, I go into this other voice, and I'm like a small child, maybe the parents lost a child, or I'm a woman, or I'm... - See me, David's junior.

(laughing) - Hey, babe, I just came back to say that don't worry about me. This cat is doing just fine. - I came back to say, I love pretty pebbles in a major way. - Invented rap, that's right.

- So, if you were a good talented medium that meant that you were probably a pretty good actor, you could probably do good voices. Sometimes in the case, of course, Scott, who I know we've talked about her before.

- Her name doesn't really work well. - I have no recollection of talking about her. - Yeah, it sounds super familiar, but she was one of the top mediums, trans mediums, because she was this very sort of demure, attractive young lady

and her whole demeanor was about that. And then she was apparently a great actor, because she would go into this, these big, heavy, gruff voices in the gulf between who she was, and who she was imitating

was so great that everyone was just like, fantastic, Gora Scott, you're a genius. - Well, also, yeah, she was like a little 12-year-old girl when she started, and supposedly she would take the stage and confidently discuss like physics and philosophy

and all that stuff, because there was some authoritative

spirit who would basically take in possession of her.

- Yeah, and I looked up her picture

“and Kate Winslet, I think, is from my casting couch”

is who I would throw in that movie. - Okay, okay. - Not as the 12-year-old, that would be weird, unless they do some sort of bad Irishman de-aging, but she looked in a flicker, and she's a great actor, so.

- So channeling is what you kind of think of where somebody becomes possessed, the medium becomes possessed, right? - Yeah. - There's also ones where, they're just saying like, oh, I can hear what they're saying,

but you can't because they're speaking to me through telepathy. - Right. - Okay, there reminds me of John Edwards, remember him crossing over with John Edwards?

- Yeah, I can't picture him, I think if I saw a picture that I would totally remember though. - You would, you would, what a weird time the 90s were as far as stuff like that, 'cause although I think Kishou ran from 2000 to 2004.

- Yeah, but that can sort of coincided with Reverend Bob Dobbs and the telebandialism and all that good stuff. - Yeah. - Was it crazy, Tom?

- So then there's automatic writing, was another big one too, and all of this is unfamiliar, again, because the stuff just is so permeated in a pop culture, it's crazy. But automatic writing is, instead of the medium's voice,

taking over the medium being possessed and speaking as the spirit, the spirit took over their hand, and they would start writing. And so in just the same way Kora Scott would have a completely

different personality or a different voice or different accent or something like that. This like the handwriting or the word usage or anything like that would be different than the medium's normal handwriting.

This is automatic writing. - And there was a trend to decide if I could do that. - Well, sometimes they would use their non-dominant hand,

“so if you want to change your handwriting,”

just do that to start. - Yeah, I can't, the same way. - And then there was a woman named Pearl Current who wrote at least 5,000 poems, novels and plays through automatic writing, all channeling the spirit

of a 17th century woman from England named Patience Worth. - Nice, that's prolific, that's a lot of words. - And then what about direct voice? - Yeah, direct voice is when you are a medium,

you contact a spirit, and the spirit is so powerful

that they just speak to you directly. Like the medium is just sitting there with their mouth closed. - Yeah. - And this happened usually in a dark room where they would have a business partner

just behind the curtain, obviously, use talking or maybe they were just doing a bad bit of ventriloquist kind of deal where it's dark enough where you can't really see their lips moving, throwing their voice,

those woman named Leslie Flint. - That's a man. - It's a medium. - Oh, really? - He looked like the old man from up.

- Oh, did it make you cry when you looked out?

- My daughter just walks that out there. (laughs) - Here, have these balloons. (laughs) - So yeah, Leslie, I actually love that name for a man,

so, and I don't know why I assumed. But he would recreate famous people like Sammy Davis Jr, but wasn't very good at it apparently. Which is kind of funny, that makes us all a little bit more ridiculous and fun.

- Well, I was reading a obituary about him that was written by somebody who attended one

“of his, or a couple of I think of his seances.”

And they said things like, you know, a lot of times you could tell it like what the trickery was or whatever, but there were other times where he would be speaking over the voice,

which is tough to do with ventriloquism, or one time he was tested, he was made to hold colored water in his mouth, while the spirit voice was speaking. And you're like, wow, you know, that's pretty interesting.

And then you think, well, there's always an explanation for it.

- Yeah. - And, you know, maybe there was another person who was a confederant in the room, who knows. But it just goes to show that even still, even today, in this guy's obituary that was written in the 90s,

the 1990s, that they were like, you know, he was largely considered a trickster or fraud, but they'll still hedge and say, you know, but there were a couple of things. And at the very least, it's unexplained,

which is pretty interesting and neat, but that doesn't necessarily mean that, oh, no, there really was a spirit

“that was talking in the room, thanks to him.”

- Amazing. So we had table turning, this is at, you know, this isn't like a theatrical performance. This is in a small room, everyone. And this kind of thing, weja board with this,

it's the same sort of thing, except the weja board would be the actual table that you're sitting at. You would, everyone would put their hands on the table and then the table would move or tilt or something

when you're asking questions. So it's inhabiting the furniture. Of course, what's going on here is either like, knee movements or sometime they had these rings on the mediums finger that were slotted

and could move the table around without anyone noticing

just another little parlor trick, basically.

- Yeah, or, you know, the idea that in you're moving the table yourself, like a weijee board, I can't remember what it's called, but basically your body is moving without your brain being aware of it.

And then there's also just the straight up power of suggestion. And this applies to table turning and a lot of other stuff. But if you're saying like, if you're the medium to say, aunts and you said the table is rising,

it's rising, people who are willing to believe, a lot of people who went to say aunts is wanted to believe we're already believed in this stuff. Just the power of suggestion could be like, oh, it is raising a little bit.

I can feel it. I can tell kind of thing. - Yeah, my favorite, and a bit your favorite too, is Ectoplasmic manifestations. - That's a good one.

- Yeah, it's pretty good. This is when you would actually, as a spiritualist, produce something physical, something would manifest itself, an actual substance. And it was, they called it Ectoplasmic.

And they could pull it from their body.

And it was just basically something

that they would make beforehand out of whatever. I mean, they would make out of all kinds of things. It was one story about someone who was actually gluing cut out faces from a magazine onto dolls. And those were Ectoplasmic spirits.

But they would hide these things, sometimes up there, but or in their other body cavities. And they would pull these things out. And some of the pictures that you see online, if you look up Ectoplasmic, 1800s, sayons,

is just, the pictures themselves are hysterical and frightening all at the same time. - Yeah, especially now when you look back and see them, you're like, how did anybody fall for that? And it's really important to keep in mind

one they wanted to believe, but two, these seances would be carried out in dark rooms to where you couldn't see much at all. You just suddenly see some luminous cloth or something that we're led to believe was Ectoplasmic.

Kind of what looked like floating in the middle of the table or something like that. It's stuff that's really easy to explain, but in a darkened room that you've been sitting in for three hours communicating with spirits,

you might be a lot more prone to buy into it than under normal circumstances. - Yeah, for sure. Maybe you're a little drunk. - Right, tipsy on chinox.

- Levitation was another big one, nice little party trick. I actually could sort of do this for a little while that David Blaine method, I don't know if you ever saw his, when he made himself levitate.

“- It's just kind of hopping up and down in there, right?”

- No, it's, it's, you're thinking of trampolines. - Oh, that's not the same thing.

- Okay.

“- No, it's all about the angle with the David Blaine method”

of getting them to see you from the right angle to where what you're really doing is you're rising your body up with just one, like just your first three toes on your right foot, and you're hiding that with your other foot. So it looks like you're just sort of levitating

a few inches off the ground. And then you act like you're in steady than you land back down and go, "Oh, boy, that was a good one,

"that was pretty powerful."

- So wait a minute. David Blaine can raise his entire body weight with three toes. - Well, I mean, he's on his toes. I mean, I could do it at the time, too. This is in the 90's.

- Man, that's impressive. I don't think I ever had the kind of toast drink that is required to do that. - You can raise yourself up with one foot. in a seated position?

- No, no, no, you're standing. - Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, I got you. - Yeah, yeah, so what you're doing is you're standing there. - I got you.

“- And then you raise yourself off the ground”

with just the toes on your right foot, let's say. And you're keeping your left foot is shielding that so you can't quite see it. - Yeah, no, I got it.

- And it just creates, if you got someone at the right angle

and I got pretty good at it. My roommate Justin was like, you're getting better mate. (laughing) - Oh, I'm getting drunk, I. - Well, both of those things were happening.

I thought you were talking about like, like a fake ear, or something like that, where they're sitting cross-legged and they're like, you know, it's like, to do that with just the retows that in and of itself is pretty impressive. But it's pretty good as that.

- All right, one of the other, there's another couple of things they did to it. - A peer photography, pretty straightforward stuff where, you know, this is the very beginnings of photography. So people didn't understand double exposures

unless you were a photographer. But if you were, you could do all sorts of neat stuff, like double expose something and put a ghostly face in the background over someone's shoulder. - Sounds great.

- I saw one, I saw a photograph where it was a ghostly arm.

It also could have been a genie coming out of a bottle, one of the two. It looked exactly the same. But it was like, it was on a table. So they were like, this is a spirit arm levitable.

So they're like tying three things together. - Table turning, levitating, in spirit photography.

“- Those are great, I think this spirit photography,”

just because they were taking advantage of this new technology, people didn't even understand. - Right. - It was like the deep fake of the time. - And they were probably like, everybody,

we got maybe three years. - Yeah, I was ready to get prolific. - And then everyone's gonna be like, oh, this just double exposure. - Right.

- And then people, like I said earlier too, a lot of the new age stuff that's tied in a spiritualism today, like taro readings, or, oh, I don't know, with straw stones, that kind of stuff. That had nothing to do with this,

because spiritualists, all of it grew out of Christianity. So there was some Christian basis to all of the spiritualist practices. And even though in a lot of ways, it was extraordinarily heretical.

There was no religious leader in charge of anything. There was no scripture, doctrine, or anything like that. It was still very much tied into and borne out of Christianity. So stuff like occult things would have been very much

frowned upon by spiritualists. - Totally. Should we take another break? - I think we should. - All right, we'll take another break

and tell you about what the Civil War had to do with all of this right after this. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Hi, this is Joe Interestine,

host of the Spirit Dutter podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. - And I just sat down with him, mini driver. - The Irish traveler said when I was 16,

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and different perspectives. And I find a lot of people with strong placements in Aquarius, like our misunderstood, a son and Venus in Aquarius in her seventh house. Spark, her unconventional approach to partnership.

He really has taught me to embrace people sleeping in different rooms on different houses and different places, but just an embracing of the isness of it. - Yes. - If you're navigating your own transformation

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(gentle music) (gentle music) - All right, so pre civil war in the United States, spiritualism was popular, it was booming. But it was more like the kind of thing

that you did in a theater, and you would go see it as a curiosity,

“or you might just maybe even knew it was fake,”

and it was just entertainment. There wouldn't be a lot going on back then. - Kind of like, listen, yeah, penguins in a zoo today. Like you know they're fake, but it's still fun to look at. - Right, why not go pay a nickel to see madam

whatever, do her little erotic, 'cause we'll get into that. These got a little sexy at times, too. - Her little ghost, shimmy? - This is part of the draw, the ghost shimmy.

But we need to talk about a couple of things here. The civil war for sure, but one of the things that was going on, you know we've been talking about a lot about the northeastern United States, and there's a very good reason

it didn't take hold in the south. It's because the way Christianity was, and some might argue still is in the south, didn't leave a lot of room. The hierarchy didn't leave a lot of room for other schools of thought,

and it was basically, even though it wasn't necessarily called, it was just shut down kind of from the beginning in the south. - They're like, we'll stick to our voodoo. Thank you very much. (laughs)

- Yeah, exactly. - Keep that spiritualism stuff out. - Yeah, so it was just not a big thing in the south. The mediums at the time would move off the stage sometimes, and have these private sayances.

- Oh yeah. - Sometimes they would get in touch with the family member, but oftentimes it would just be kind of the same in the state, as the stage show, they would say, like I'm gonna get in touch with Sammy Davis Jr,

or whatever the popular dead figure at the time was. - Sure, but that was for like pre civil war. It was in entertainment, it was an amusement, but when the civil war came, a lot of people died in the civil war,

and that means that a lot of people who survived the civil war lost a loved one, and these might have been people who went off to fight

and just never came back.

Never heard from again, no nothing, have no idea where they died, where they were buried. And so that kind of grief, that transcends any kind of time or place, and it created a lot of people a large population

of people who were very interested in getting in touch with their dead relative. And it just so happened that at the time, there was a movement of foot that said, "Oh, well, this guy over here's actually really

"getting in touch with the dead one "and you have a sayons with him." He just had to, you know, pay him to do this work, 'cause it is a lot of work, whether you are a believer in a skeptic,

it's a lot of work to have been a medium during this time. And so they would be paid, and they would make a living like this,

were decreased in size,

but vastly increased in frequency.

“- Yeah, a lot more spiritualists doing smaller mediums”

for families or smaller sayonses for families. And this same thing happened after World War I as well. So it's, you know, it's kind of all fun and games until it gets to this level. If it's a big theater show, fine, whatever,

go pay your money and get entertained for an hour, but when you are taking people's money who have lost loved ones in battle, then that's when it gets kind of really ugly, if you ask me. - Right, and that's where I think a lot of the genuine skeptics

who beat this kind of stuff to a pulp, that's the place that they're coming from. You know, not necessarily that it's like in a front to science or reason or common sense, or anything like that, but that there are a lot of people

who have parted money from people

who were bereaved at the time.

And you just, you don't take advantage of people who are undergoing grief. That's a pretty shot of being able to do. That's a lifeless and right there for everybody who wants to think, especially on ministers.

- Not only that, not only taking your money, but I imagine in a lot of cases, people made real life decisions based on things that would happen in these sayonses, you know? - Like sell the family farm, like stuff like that.

- Oh, God, I hadn't thought about that. And not only sell the family farm, sell it to me,

“the medium, that's what your dead brother wanted you to do.”

- For what? Something's coming through. They're saying pennies on the dollar. (laughing) - That's great.

- So, yeah, that's terrible. - Yeah, that's terrible. So, by the end of the 20th century, things started to decline a bit. One was just pure greed.

There were too many of them out there. They were all trying to outdo one another. They were trying to draw bigger crowds and more money and they were getting more outrageous by doing so. And that meant just like anything

when you try and do that, the bigger you try to force something to be sometimes that can lead to it's kind of early death, I guess. - Yeah, go bigger, go home, but eventually, you're going to go home anyway. - That's the end of that saying, I love it.

- So, part of it was that they were making more audacious claims.

“But also, there were more and more scientists,”

like those that open-minded scientific approach had become a lot more hard and toward spiritualism and mediums. Because so many had been investigated and found it just be total frauds. Most of the time, the outcome was,

the medium couldn't reproduce this exo-plasm or get in touch with the spirit when they were under controlled conditions or they went for it and they were found to be a fraud. Like the knuckle of their toe was found to be wrapping

on a stool or something like that. And so, as these reports kept coming out more and more, these scientific investigators were like, "I don't think any of this is real." And they would be interviewed in newspapers

and the papers would run these articles. And so, over time, just the general public kind of turned away from spiritualism as Hokem and Bunk. But the thing is, it's not everyone did. And even still today, go ask Dan Acroyd.

There is a group of people who had here to spiritualism as a religion. - No, for sure. And one of the big reasons that it didn't completely go away was spiritualists were very smart

and that they would use influencers of the day and they're act. They would seek out these well-known people. They would tour the world sometimes to Europe and do seances with like royal families of various countries.

The newspapers write about this. They would get a quote or maybe demand a quote from someone like well-known and they would say, "I don't come to a seance, but you gotta give me a quote "that I can use in my flyer or whatever."

- What's it called? - Pull quote, no, no, no. - That fallacy, the logical fallacy, appeal to authority, I think. - Yeah, yeah, the appeal to authority. - Sure. - Okay.

- Yeah, which makes a lot of sense that people see, oh well, they did a sense for the Prince of Monaco or Sammy Davis Junior, then it's gotta be good enough for me. It's not pseudoscience at all

'cause why would Sammy Davis Junior believe in pseudoscience? - Right. - He's just a satinist. - He didn't care about pseudoscience, that's right. - So, one of the other authorities

that they would appeal to Chuck was what this one, there's an expose written in 1897 and by God if I can't find it anywhere in my tabs,

but it was basically, oh, revelations of a spirit medium

And it was written anonymously by a medium, a hoax or a fraud. And I'm pretty sure it was published in 1897 and it is like 400 pages exposing all the tips and all that stuff, all the tricks. But one of, there's a glossary of like 19th century

slang words among hoaxers, it's amazing.

But one of them was the top heavy and that was a scientist who was over-credentialed. They had all these PhDs and everything like that, so they were booksmarked, but they were super gullible. And if you could get a top heavy to basically say,

like, I can't explain it science, can't explain it,

“that would go a very long way to bolstering your career, you know?”

- Yeah, even if you talk to a hundred scientists and one of them was a top heavy who said something valuable to you, that's the only one, you're the tenth dentist of the nine out of ten dentists. - Right, exactly, exactly.

And that's all you need, especially if the other nine dentists just keep their traps shut because they are better things to do. But there were a bunch of people who would not keep their traps shut. I guess actually, one of a legendary top heavy, even though he was an a scientist credential,

or otherwise, was Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. (audience laughs) I don't know, what's wrong with me. I'm sorry, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. - By the way, before I forget,

if there's not a band called the tenth dentist out there, then I don't know what to think anymore. - It's a good one. - It was tried in commercials, I think it was four out of five dentists. - That was a four out of five.

- It was a bit on the testicles by a squirrel before he can pronounce how before he could recommend denting or try dent or something like that. - Maybe it should be the fifth, it is four out of five, it's not nine out of ten. - Do you remember that then?

- No. - It was a great, great, the very shocked thing.

“- What was the cult, was it, we make holes in teeth?”

- Oh yeah. - Remember that, the cartoon? - That was crest. - You want to hear the pinnacle of 80's marketing to kids?

- My third grade, maybe fourth grade class,

put on a play about toothpaste? - Yes, and cavities sponsored by Chris. - Yeah, they had a big push back then for taking over the minds of American children. - Well, it works, what's funny is I now use Aquafresh,

the orange tube, oh man, if there is a favorite toothpaste that any boy in America has ever had, that is it and it's mine. - That was from the 80's? - No, it is now, but I'm saying the crest take over of my mind, the work.

- Gotcha. - And I'm an aquafresh boy now. - Is that the one with the tricolor? - Yeah, which is another very appealing part of it. - Man, you'd buy it all, don't you?

- I do. - It's so gullible. - Yeah, I am a little gullible. You're like an Arthur Conan Doyle. - So he, if you recognize his name,

he was the author of Sherlock Holmes, of course. He was super into this. He joined this Society for Psychical Research, which is an early skeptical/believer society. And he bought into this.

He was just convinced, but on the other side of the equation were skeptics who were not convinced,

who basically didn't keep their mouth shut.

They were the other four who would say like, "No, everybody actually, this guy's wrong. "My esteemed colleague has been taken." But then the head of those guys was Harry Houdini, amazingly enough.

- Yeah, Houdini, which makes it super ironic that at Magic Castle in Los Angeles, they have, have long had Harry Houdini say on tonight. - Oh yeah. - Where you can go into the Harry Houdini room

and do a say on, which is, you know, it's all for fun. - But it is kind of funny that he was very much against this stuff. Although supposedly, if you go to the Magic Castle, they'll tell you that he did,

and he may have really done this, is told his wife before he died, that, hey, listen, if I was wrong, I'll come back and I'll contact you on what you know. - You're right, and he came back and he said,

"I've got good news, and I've got bad news." The good news is there is a heaven. The bad news is your schedule to pitch there tonight. Do you remember that scary stories that tell 'em in dark book?

- Yeah, where was that, what that was from? - It was like two friends who played baseball together. - Yeah. - We had a pact to like Harry Houdini and his wife apparently.

“- I think that's a, there's different versions”

of that joke though. - Man, the illustrations in that book were just bar none. - Yeah, that was great stuff. And by the way, we should give a big rest in peace

to Mr. Mort Drucker, who passed away. - Oh yeah. - A couple of weeks ago in real time, but that was a big one. We talk about Mad Magazine a lot.

And Mort Drucker was my number one with a bullet favorite artist, and he passed on and he was one of the greats.

in a very large way. - Yeah, big time. - But there's drawings. - Never mind. - Never mind.

- Yeah, nice. - We'll hear from you soon. - Right, he's like, "You guys are pitching tonight." (laughing) - Oh no, both of us.

- So Harry Houdini is like, "Yeah, Josh is gonna flow a bit." And Chuck's gonna have to be broad and for the save. So Harry Houdini created this longstanding tradition of staged magicians exposing the fraud

of spiritualism basically.

- Yeah, because they're like, they're stealing our tricks. Yeah, and it's pretty cool. Like he would incorporate into his stage shows, a lot of these things that spiritualists

were doing to show how they did it. And he was relentless at it. - Yeah, he was very relentless. - But it was very cool. And the fact that it's still going on today,

Richard Wiseman, who's come up a few times, he was in the Sheldrake episode, he was in the Ghosts episode.

“And I think we somehow misconstrued his research”

in the Ghosts episode to suggest that he had proven ghosts exist. I don't remember exactly the details of it, but we got that one wrong. But in this case, he has recreated sances

from the 19th century and has shown how willing people are to totally misreport the events that went on in the sayons to say that yes, you know, the table did levitate or all the stuff that he's studying under these controlled conditions.

And it's basically shown not just that the medium,

himself or more often herself, as we'll see, was engaging in fraud. But also that the audience was had a willing suspension of disbelief, and we're part of this too, by saying like I fell the phantom arm tap me on the shoulder.

The medium didn't have anything to do with that. That was just something that kind of came out of the environment that was produced in the sayons, you know? - Yeah, pretty interesting. - It is pretty interesting.

- So we'll finish up here with this. I thought this was very interesting actually, the social implications of this, most of the, not all, but a lot of these spiritualists were women in the 19th century.

For some practical reasons I could wear these long dresses that could hide talented toe knuckles. They were not because of the time,

they wouldn't get like searched too closely, obviously,

'cause you wouldn't do that. If you were a scientist trying to examine whether or not a spiritualist was real or not. And that led to, there were men for sure, but that led to this kind of interesting side note.

One is that women could make their own money, and so it's easy to poo poo something like this, but I'm sure those fox sisters made a lot more dough than they ever could have as, you know, doing anything else offered and available

to them at the time. - Sure. - So that's a good thing. They gave them some agency, but it was no coincidence that sometimes the voice from the other side

would champion sort of progressive views, because this turned out to be a chance to sort of reshape policy in a way, if you were a woman and you were a spiritualist, it would be very easy to say, you know,

they're saying that women should have more rights.

“And if not, they will come back and haunt you all, right?”

And that kind of ended up happening in some ways. - Yeah, there was a huge connection between spiritualism and spiritualist movement and abolitionism, the women's suffrage movement, the women's temper, or the temperance movement,

and a lot of these progressive movements, the workers' rights. And, you know, if you were an abolitionist and you didn't believe in this kind of thing, you might be like, I'm not really happy about that,

but at the same time, it kind of whipped up this fervor in that some people would, like their spirits, that there were being channeled by the medium, were saying things like, you guys better get on the train of abolitionism, you better get rid of slavery.

And it actually did, especially in these theatrical settings, have a widespread influence on getting the message out there through the spirit communication weirdly enough. - Yeah, it's almost like one could say anything at all, it's something like, oh, I don't know, a campaign rally,

and people would believe it if they were an ardent enough believer in the speaker. Exactly, especially if they detach their ego to you in your success, very strange. So, I just wanted to give two shots out,

one, two, the probably the greatest ghost movie

“that involved Sanchez ever, ghost, no, would be Goldberg?”

- No. - All right. - The others, with the quality of the community. - Yeah, that was good. - Oh, it was so good. - And then, the greatest short story involving

written by arguably the greatest American writer of all time, Joyce Carol Oates, it's called Night Side. It's a short story, it's the same title as a collection of her short stories from the '70s.

“I think, 1977, night side, look it up and thank me later.”

It's seriously just bone-chilling, how good it is. - I wonder if we could get in touch with her and read that for Halloween episode. - I tweeted two or once kind of crassly

and never heard anything back, even though you were like,

"Twitter, I know she saw that tweet." - Hey, at Joyce Carol Oates, you think you're so cool. - All right, I would love to read that one. There's another one too, there's a, she's probably not just the greatest American writer,

but the greatest American horror writer too. - She's great. - She's so wonderful. I would read any of her stories. So if you out there know Joyce Carol Oates and her contacts with her,

as you know her publisher, please, we would love to read in our ad free episode, one of her short stories for Halloween. - That's right, so I think she might like that aspect. - Okay, oh, one last thing Chuck,

there's a place called Lily Dale in New York appropriately and stuff, which is basically a spiritualist community where you can go basically be among spiritualists as a religion today.

- Wonderful. - Since I said today, it's time for listen to mail. (bell ringing) - I'm gonna call this, we haven't gotten emails in two weeks from people

because something's wrong with our email server. - Yeah. - So it's on "Badays" again.

“You're gonna get a couple on "Badays" I think.”

- All right. - Hey guys, listening to your recent episode on "Badays" reminded me of a funny story that I thought you might like. 2004, my family bought a new house in the suburbs of Detroit.

It was designed to build by an exceptionally pragmatic efficient yet lacking in aesthetic appreciation in Geneva. To our surprise, my husband's delight, as he is from Spain, the master bathroom included a separate "Badays" unit. And remember, this is 2004 and people were not as familiar

in this country. Most people that visited our home had no idea what it was and we also made the decision to not give advanced notice when they went to the bathroom. Invariably, people would emerge from the bathroom trip

either a little wet or with an embarrassed look on their face. They confessed having explored the contraption and released a stream of water onto themselves.

And into our bathroom, it was always good for a laugh.

(laughs) I sure appreciate you guys when we moved from Michigan to the South Carolina. - What? - Was she, was she wants Miss South Carolina

because that would explain that last bit? - No, I thought it was, she met the South and I didn't see on the next line it said Carolina, so that was just me. - Oh, okay.

- Your voice as a company to us as we made many 12 hour trips back and forth, we enjoyed the knowledge and the tangents, even the tangents. And now, you continue to sue the Educate Me as I go on my four to five mile recreational walks

during the pandemic quarantine. And temporary, hopefully, furlough. And that is from Michelle Salcedo. - Nice, thanks a lot, Michelle. We're glad to know that you're doing okay there,

hanging out waiting for things to get back to normal. - In the South Carolina. - That's right, Chuck. And as it will eventually go back to normal. And in the meantime, if you wanna get in touch with us

like Michelle did, to let us know some silly story about a bidet or what have you, you can get in touch with us. Send us a email to [email protected]. (upbeat music)

“- This stuff you should know is a production of I Heart Radio.”

For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the I Heart Radio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows. (upbeat music) - Hey, I'm Jay Shetty, host of the On Purpose Podcast.

I'm joined by Luke Combs, award-winning country music artist, and one of the most authentic voices in music today.

- The guy that says he's always gonna be there

and that will do anything to be there is the only guy that's not there. No matter what, I'm gonna prioritize my wife and my children. I dread the conversation with my son. - Listen to On Purpose, Jay Shetty,

on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, we unpack the story of an unimaginable tragedy that gripped the UK in 2023.

But what if we didn't get the whole story? - I'd just been based at first. - The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapsed. - What if the truth was disguised by a story

we chose to believe on my dad? I think she might be innocent. Listen to doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts,

- Hi, it's Joe Interestine, host of the Spirit Dr. Podcast,

or we talk about astrology,

natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life.

And today, I'm talking with my dear friend, Crystal Williams.

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