Brené and Adam on What They Will Never Agree On

A show from the Fox Media podcast network. Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Curiosity Shop. I'm Renee Brown. And I'm Adam Grant. We're glad you're here.

We're here. I'm glad we're here. I'm glad we're here. I'm shocked we're here. Really surprised.

We did it. Well, we're doing it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's talk it to you excited.

“Two things that I think we should talk about today”

for our first podcast, Made in Boyge. One, how we got here. And almost didn't get here. Are you sure we want to go there? I think we should.

And if this absolutely goes to hell, what are best predictions are about why it'll go to hell. How about that? I definitely look forward to that one. Yeah.

So let's jump in. OK, before we do that, we just want to take a quick moment to thank our launch sponsors. We have SaaS, powering better decisions with data and AI. You can learn more at SaaS.com, that's SAS.com.

And if you're looking for a partner in design and productivity, you can also check out our other launch sponsor, which is Campa. You can learn more at campa.com. I love-- I'm self teaching myself, Campa. It's really fun.

If you can't find me sometimes, it's because I'm trying to make cool things. That's campa.com. And thank you all both for being launch sponsors. That's exciting.

We're obviously thrilled to have them on board. And you'll get to hear more about them as we go. Yeah, let's do it. OK, what was your surprise? So this really is a surprise question.

And I have mixed feelings about it already. I can tell. Yeah. Well, you know, it's just the thing about how we got here. OK.

The preview, I guess, is we got here by disagreeing a lot. Yes. And so I was curious about what you think will never agree on.

What do I think we will never agree on?

Every time I have something that I don't

“think we're going to agree on, I think we”

end up agreeing to some degree. But I wonder if return to work. But under return to work is I'm wondering if we'll ever agree-- Oh, I think there's a lot of things we're never going to agree on.

I wonder if under some of the things that we'll never agree on will be fundamentally the conflict between research and lived experience that I think so many constructs and ideas and theories and strategies that come out of research.

Obviously, it's important. I think research is important. I wouldn't be here. Research professor, here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, exactly.

But there is-- I wonder if we'll agree upon whose responsibility it is to fill the gap between data and theory and then how that shit actually works out on the ground, like the gap between the idea and the practical reality.

We might never agree on that.

Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah, I think we'll never agree on it. Because I think we'll get into a return to work-- we'll do an episode on return to work. Because I think where I get stuck is scholars who study it,

and in order to study it and really have meaning,

“you have to have some controlled variables.”

Say, oh, you don't need to be back at work. Productivity is fine, blah, blah, blah. But then you have like, Tim Cook, who runs a company at a trillion dollar valuation. I'm pretty sure knows what he's doing in terms of a creative company,

and was first to come out and say, everybody back to work. And so there's a conflict between, sometimes, I think, between research and lived experience that I wonder if we'll ever get there. I will always trust the evidence over experience.

If I have to choose. Right.

I will always question where the experience--

where the research stops being helpful, because that's not people's lived experience. And then I don't think I'll attack the research, but I'll say it's hard. I think in our line of work where I don't know.

I think it's hard. I think this will be a place that's struggle. I think so too. Yeah. Wait, what do you think?

Well, I thought of too.

One is text versus email. Oh, you're just wrong. No. Email is better than text. It's asynchronous.

You can do it on your own time. You can file things away.

Texts are just never ending.

And they grab your attention, and they take control of your life. We don't text the same then, maybe. Yeah. Yeah, nothing-- OK, so here's this.

Nothing comes in to my text. Rarely, do things come into my text that are not important. Email, I'm bombarded, 90% of the email. I have to filter to find you. Like I have to filter to find you.

And so-- and I get overwhelmed by it. And I guess maybe I also don't share my phone number very much with people. So if you're not like immediate in my life, you don't have my phone number.

I don't need that. But why don't you like-- I love text it. We text all the time. You hate it? No, I mean, I don't hate texting with you.

But we're actually having conversations

“about this show and learning from each other, right?”

Yeah. I think for me, most of the communication I have with other people would be so much easier to do about email, because I can sit down and do it when it's convenient.

And then, file it away and know where it is. Email is organized. I know exactly how many tasks I have to do. Texts, it's a mess. Hey, texting.

God, don't ever text me. No, that's funny, because we text all the time. OK, what's the other thing? OK, the other thing is much, much bigger. Faith.

Faith? Faith.

I don't-- we've never talked about this before.

No, I haven't. But you listed it when I asked you what your two core values were. You said, faith and courage. Yeah.

And I was like, oh, we're not going to agree on this one. Why? I don't believe in anything that can't be proven. But I also don't disbelieve in anything that can't be disproved.

OK, I don't believe in anything that can't be proven. OK. And I don't disbelieve in anything that can't be disproved. Oh, yeah, we'll disagree on that. Big time, right?

Yeah, no, yeah, yeah. I-- if it's a mystery that surpasses all human understanding, I'm for it. I am for being open to the possibility and never having faith in it.

Oh, yeah, no, we won't agree on that. But I think that's OK. Like, yeah, I think that's great. Yes.

“So I think it's a minor miracle that we've”

gotten to a place where we can be OK about disagreeing. Do you believe in miracles? No. Definitely not. Not a chance.

You're just baiting me now. No, no, no. I was going to try and introduce it. It was complicated. No, that's fair.

But I do think-- I mean, we started out not being OK with disagreeing, at all, I think. Well, I was OK with disagreeing with you because you were wrong.

But so tell the story about how we first encountered each other.

Well, I remember meeting in a green room backstage before an event that we were both speaking at. And we probably had chatted for five minutes. This was before our desktop? Yeah.

Yeah, this was a decade ago, probably. Oh, wow, OK. I don't remember. Maybe no, it's longer. I think it was 2013, 2014.

What did-- yeah, I don't remember. I think we were in Arizona. And we met backstage or-- no, it was a green room.

“And I think we chatted for five minutes.”

And that was the end of it. And-- I clearly left about impression because you took me down and you're on line article. We're off of any of your times.

Yeah, go ahead. I clearly, that was not a good meeting. This was not a good meeting, folks. I thought the meeting was fine. OK, so let's talk about--

I actually left it feeling like I was awkward because I felt like I knew who you were and you didn't know who I was. I would be surprised if I didn't know who you were in 2013. I don't know. I just walked in and introduced myself.

I don't know if she knows who I am. And I don't know if I should introduce myself as if she doesn't, and didn't know what to do with that. So you guys probably, because when I'm in a green room, I'm locked in, and that's probably why I'm locked in,

because I'm praying. To whom? God, I am praying. I have a prayer that I say every time before I speak. Before I speech.

Before I talk, or anything. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. OK, so I had no idea. So I was trampling on your prayer.

No, no, no, you weren't trampling. But I'm probably locked in in a green room and maybe back then even more so. I believe that. Yeah. But other than just not being sure how the interaction

So then, let's talk about what happens next. OK. Then I was writing an article about what I consider problematic advice for people at work, which is be yourself. It's a green.

And I was looking-- well, I wrote the article

basically, just trying to capture some evidence

about how people who are too obsessed with being themselves. And making bad impressions and getting worse performance reviews and not getting promoted. And I finished a draft of the article. And I had to understand, you need a definition of authenticity.

And I started looking up definitions. And you had the best one by four, by four. I nailed it. In a sense. And I thought, this is it.

And I thought it was a shout out. OK, hey, Bernay has done the best work on authenticity. Let me quote her, what I did not do-- and I regret having not done it was read the rest of the work and understand your definition and context,

“because I think I would have framed the article very differently.”

But it didn't cross my mind. I thought it was, hey, Bernay's done great work on authenticity. Here's how she defines it. And here's how the advice to be yourself

can get you in trouble. And that is not how it came across to you, I think, because I woke up the next morning and my social channels, my email, even some texts, all that was blowing up saying, Bernay, Brown just smacked you down.

I was like, what, what, I was shocked. You were not happy. But didn't-- let's find it. We should have prepared this. What is the--

What is the-- let's see. You're looking for the title? Yes. I did not write that headline. Now, let's go ahead and tell-- tell folks the title.

I think the title was, unless you're Oprah, be yourself as terrible advice. And then-- but where was the part-- I'm in the LinkedIn. What was the part about me?

Now, there was-- no, no, no. Do we should look, hold on. Let's look. This is the LinkedIn.

“By the way, we've never really talked about this.”

No, we've never talked about it.

No, I think-- I'm all around it. No, I think what happened was-- what year was that? Did you succeed?

20-- it's not this one. It's the Oprah one. Go back up. Hold on. We're looking right here.

That's it. Yeah. Right there. Generally, it's 2016. OK.

Yes, yeah. So it was a smack-down of authenticity. I didn't mean it for it to be a smack-down of authenticity though, right? I was trying to say the be-yourself advice

as a way of expressing authenticity. But I actually believe-- but I actually believe that authenticity-- this is such a wild thing that we ended up here. We did not plan for this.

And then this is every time we sit down this happens. Like you have no idea how many times we've

scripted what we're going to say, and it never works.

“Here's the thing that's frustrating to me”

about the perception of my work. Be vulnerable is the takeaway. But no one reads the next three sentences, which says vulnerability minus boundaries is just inappropriate disclosure.

People read the definition of authenticity, but built into the definition of authenticity is boundaries. Boundaries. The cost people have. Look, I've worked in unsafe places,

like literally my first boss out of my MSW program through a glass paper weight at me. Like, no, I have worked in this series. Oh, yes, I have worked in really to monitor. And let me tell you, I graduated from high school in 1983.

I was too-- yeah. Fuck off. When, for me, sexual harassment was the price of entry for work. Yeah, so sorry. No, yeah, but it's for most women my age.

We-- the whole idea that I would tell people without any boundaries, be vulnerable. Read the rest of it. Don't weaponize the first line if you don't understand the second.

I can't fix the fact that people don't read the whole thing and leave with a single message. Any message taken out of context is dangerous. When I was a young academic, I was authentic by my definition,

I was boundary. I trusted my instinct about who to trust with things that I wanted to share and not share. So the whole thing is that no one talks about the emotional weight of not being authentic.

“So I think authenticity is a very complex thing”

that includes being boundaryed and building internal systems where you count on yourself intuitively to trust when you can share and what you can share and with him. And I'm completely unbored with that, and clearly did not capture that in this short piece.

I quoted you out of context. Yeah, and so I think that-- so when I read that, probably my eyeer towards you-- is that right? The right word, yeah, like my-- Oh, I think it was stronger than I are.

You do? I mean, look at some of the sentences you wrote in your spots. Oh, but people complimented us on our back and forth, right? People were like, wow, this is how more people should argue this way.

But I think we debated-- I was absolutely pissed because I think you represented a larger wholesale issue with the weaponization of work. That-- and it's not just my work. You know, we were with the stare parallel last night

because coming off the South by Southwest event. The hardest one of the most difficult things about emotional resonance-- when you write with emotional resonance language-- emotionally resonant language--

is it succeeds in doing the thing the writer wants, which is to internalize it and make it your own. It's emotionally resonant. It finds a compartment in your heart where it can live. It gets cozy.

It gets a blanket. It snuggles into the sofa and your heart and thinks, yeah, this speaks to me, this is true. Then you make it your own. And then you regurgitate it through your own lens.

“And that's why people are like psychological safety.”

So you're basically what Amy Edmondston is telling people

is if it doesn't feel comfortable, then it's OK to be to say you're unsafe. No, she never said that. But-- The opposite of that.

She's a hardcore performance researcher. And so I think you-- and I didn't know how that you were a dude. Oh, wait, so I got to say a typed as one of those men. Yes.

That you-- yes, I think my initial reaction-- and I don't think I had the language back-- quantitative, social scientist, jerk. Yeah, man's planning my work and taking it out of context. So then I was like, I'm done with you.

I was just like, I can't. And I had-- in a way-- It was more than that, wasn't it?

No, I don't think so, because I never--

I didn't talk for four years at that. So we had never talked before that. That's true. Yeah, so it's not like we were friends and I broke our friendship.

No, but I wrote a pretty strongly-worded rebuttal, and then you responded again. And then we just-- that was the end of it. Yeah, and I remember somebody-- I don't know what was Seth Gowner.

So I was like, hey, y'all, there's a desktop on LinkedIn. I was like, oh, please. But yeah, I just wasn't doing it. But I have to tell you that it was probably a disproportional response.

You think? I'm sorry about that, yeah. Oh, thank you. Well, I'm sorry that I failed to read your definition in context because I would have written really

differently about your work and how it actually is the solution to the problem with your self-advice, not part of the problem.

“Yeah, because I think people who understand my work”

know that my bottom line is be yourself with people who earn the right to see yourself. Share your story with people who've earned the right to hear your story. Wait, say that again.

Be yourself with people who've earned the right to see yourself to see you and share your story with people who've earned the right to hear your story. And with people with whom you've built a relationship that can bear the weight of the story.

That's like-- and it's so-- this is really interesting because people-- this is so interesting. Because people also say, wow, you're taking people-- you're telling people to take their armor off at work. And I said, no, actually, when we do a dear to lead intervention,

the reason why a lot of CEOs, after the first meeting

with me say I'm not working with you, is if you want us to come and do the work, I'm happy to do that. We're going to start by identifying the people with the least formal-- the least amount of formal power. And the least amount of proximity to power.

And then we're going to start with one question. Why is armor required or rewarded here?

we collect from that process, you're a great fit for this work. If you don't want to know what you and other leaders are doing to make armor required and rewarded here, you're not going to like working with me. It's so powerful.

Yeah, so very few people make it through that, let me test because most people are like-- and then you can imagine, if I'm working with the CEO that says I want to know. Because the armor is not only killing them. It's killing innovation.

It's killing trust, and it's killing performance. It's shocking to me that there are leaders who wouldn't want to know. Oh, the majority.

“I mean, one that I think long term is a choice to fail.”

It is a choice to fail, but it is a choice of self-protection. And you go over winning. Yeah. And secondly, I think it's just morally irresponsible. To not care about the impact.

This is where we go so wrong because I'm like, but isn't the protection of power and privilege morally irresponsible? Yeah, it is. Yeah, so that's where this lives.

So I think I was-- and I have to say, it was an embryonic moment in my career when this happened. That I was just starting to see people bubbling up, taking the work out of context. And it was at a larger scale than I could whack a mole down.

Because at first, I was just responding to every tweet,

every everything. No, no, that's not to us. You miss this part. No, no, no, this-- and then there it is in the New York Times. And I'm like, shit.

There's a reporter named Emmanuel Fabian, who's been covering the war in Iran for the times of Israel. Recently, he got a ton of feedback about a tiny article he wrote, but he couldn't figure out why.

It was about a missile that exploded just outside the Israeli city with a fake shemish. I'd appreciate it if you could update your article as in its current form, it does not reflect reality. Someone who wanted him to say, it was a missile fragment

instead of a missile. Weird, because it was a missile, not a fragment. If you could correct the site, you'd be doing me at many others, a great favor. Eventually, the message has got more threatening.

You have exactly half an hour to correct your attempt at influence. You won't pay the full price for your irresponsible act. Emmanuel finally figured out why people were getting so aggressive. They had bet money on how bombings in Israel

would play out on Polymarket. After you make us lose $900,000, you will invest a new list in that to finish you. Betting on the Iran War on today's point.

“Well, I look, I think you can say your response”

with this proportionate, but I'm the one who caused the response in the first place with what I wrote. And being careful in my writing and being respectful of other people's work are core priorities for me. And I'm sorry that I failed to live up to those standards.

I think a couple of things are-- our economy as we talk this through--

it's strange that we never talked about this.

But for a full-- I think we've never talked about this. We've walked around it, we've never walked into it. No. And I've had to figure out why, which I want to talk about.

But I think one thing that hit me after I got some distance from your response was what I should have said, and what I actually think we agree on, is that authenticity without empathy is selfish. That is not just about saying, well, this is who I am.

Let me express myself. But also, I need to do that in ways that show regard for other people's values and well-being.

“Yes, I think authenticity without empathy”

and boundaries fails to be authenticity. And I think authenticity should be in service of connection. So I think it's very difficult in a work perspective, from a work perspective, to be authentic in an environment where conversations about power and identity are not OK.

Yeah, I think-- I mean, it's remarkable how aligned we could fit on that.

So why have we never talked about this?

Because I came on to that thinking, I will never talk to this person again. Tame, for sure. Five design. Yeah, I mean, just yet no.

I don't know. So for the over four years, over the course of the four years, several people came to me and said, I know you and Adam had a real disagreement, it was pretty public. I think you would weirdly get along.

And it's not that they said, I weirdly think you would get along. They said, I think you would weirdly get along, which we weirdly get along sometimes. Yes, sometimes. I mean, I think we always get along.

Maybe there's been hiccups, but that they're not hiccups. I don't want to-- there's been moments of frustration

I don't know.

I just wasn't interested because we've never talked about this before,

“because I think in the four years that followed the article,”

this became one of the heaviest and hardest things in my life. This kind of misuse and weaponization of my work. And I was an avatar of that. And you were an early avatar of that, yeah. And so I think I just was like, and it was coming in

without sandwiching for me, because on the one side, I got, you're not understanding one. It's like, for some people that are not in your position, what it means to be vulnerable. And I said, do you own God?

And then on the other side, I remember I got a revised and resimbed on an article that said, you've over-sampled, especially black women. And so, yeah. And so, it was 48% of one of my samples.

But I think it was like, because that's who's being targeted right now. And so, it's not an over-sample. It's a year and under-stupid. I mean, I just have this battery action.

So I think, I just was disinterested. The hard thing for me that it was felt misaligned is I was reading all of your work. I was, I was reading yours too. Yeah, I was reading your work, highlighting your work.

Challenging myself with your work. I was respecting and appreciating your work. So then I get the call four years later from you. If you're going to talk about that? I don't know.

All right. Yeah, you just got it. You called for, for, you asked me for a favor. I asked for help. Yeah, I was, well, yeah, I was reading and learning

so much from your work and watching your talks. And the other thing that happened was, everywhere I went, you had spoken. Say, I kept hearing.

I actually, I have two questions I always asked

when I had either speaking in an event or visiting an organization. One is, what can I do better?

“The other is, who's the person who's had the most impact?”

And every single place I went, what I asked, who has most outdoor organization or your people, the answer was Bernabreau. And at first, I was like, damn it, look, I hate that. This is terrible.

Exactly. Newman. It was such a sign-filled moment for me. Newman. And then it happened enough times and I had been internalizing

much more of your work. I found myself quoting you, saying, as Bernabreau says, clear as kind. And I think I'd be grudgingly had to admit that there was value in your work.

And I find it really hard to fully separate the art from the artist. Same. I think your values are infused in what you create. And so I started coming around to the idea,

this person has a lot to contribute. She probably has a lot of virtues. And yeah, then I was during COVID. I was working with a women sports team and having a hard time getting them

to engage with some of the research and ideas that I thought would help them. And I decided to create a little speaker series 'cause nobody could go anywhere during COVID. Yeah.

So I said, let's do this virtually. I'll bring in speakers who do you want. And the number one request was Bernabreau. And I thought, what do I have to lose? Worst that happens is she still hates me.

And we don't talk. We already don't talk. She probably already hates me. And I was so surprised. I reached out to you and you said yes immediately.

By email. You responded to an email. I did respond to you. I was very happy with it. And I remember you showing up and just

one, just imparting so much wisdom to the team and to making it clear that you wanted help. Even somebody you didn't like, who does that? Yeah, because I felt hypocritical because I think you probably that email caught me right in the middle

of reading one of your books. And I think I was talking to my kids about your work, too, because I thought it was really helpful. And so I was just like, this is so-- this is just stupid.

“I don't know what, I mean, like life is too hard at this point”

because we were in the middle of COVID, just stuff was hard. I thought it was really generous to reach out to me. I mean, it's interesting.

The first time we did a dear to lead intervention

was at the Gates Foundation. And we asked-- there was a first place we asked this group of leaders, this question. And we've since asked over 10,000 leaders. And what is the thing that your direct reports do

Whoa, someone's reporting to you, what's a behavior they engage in.

And everyone always thinks it's going to be reliability,

like you can dependability or reliability. And the number one thing is always they ask for help. When someone who reports to me ask for help, my trust for them sky rocks, sky rockets.

“So I think when you ask for help, I kind of felt like this is--”

this is first of all, hypocritical internally. Does that make sense to me? Um, he can't be the avatar for a general frustration I had, because I'm the avatar for so many people's frustration and that's so unfair and hurtful.

And so I was like, this is a great opportunity. Wow, look at that. So we've never talked about this, it's so weird. Well, OK, so a couple of things. One, you're reminding me of a classic paper

by Jecker and Landy, 1965. In fact, check that later, the paper is about liking a person as a function of doing a favor for them. And how, when you are asked for help, when you help the person, if you weren't forced or obligated to do it,

you come away thinking, well, I must care about them or like them. Otherwise, why in the world was I doing this? And God, that's interesting. Obviously, across my mind, I was just desperate

to try to get through to this team when I reached out to them. I have to say that was a tough gig. It was definitely challenging. And it was a Hail Mary Pass to you, which you kindly caught. Randown, the field and boom.

No, I didn't actually, I actually experienced that. I didn't care as much of the outcome of how impactful our conversation was. That was not my goal for the interaction. My goal for the interaction was more repair with you

and connection and just kind of built some-- Wow.

Yeah, because it wasn't the first time I had

worked with that specific group of people, or at least an individual capacity. And I knew it was going to be tough. Yeah. Well, then it was actually generous to be mistaken.

I was very curious about what you're talking to. But I remember being unsure at the time, we talked probably for five minutes before we went on the virtual stage. And I wasn't sure if I should apologize

and try to repair the relationship then. Or if just-- I felt like there wasn't enough time. And I decided, instead, just to show my genuine appreciation for you being willing to do this. And it was great to help them.

And I think I'm curious now, if I had

“apologized then, would it have played out differently?”

Then just kind of getting to know each other on a different level through working a little together.

I think I was very hopeful that this would never come up again.

I just wanted to talk about it. No, I didn't-- I don't think I wanted to talk about it. Then I was like, let's just walk in and help this team. Like, this is my task mode. Yeah, I was in task mode.

And I was also like, let's just move on. And I don't think we would have-- I don't know that we would have-- I don't know that it would have been helpful in that. It's almost like, me not remembering

that I met you in the green room. Like, when I go, I have my list of questions before I do something like you have your list of questions. My questions are, what's a home run look like? What's the greatest lift I could do for you right now?

Sometimes someone will say, if you could make a connection between these two things, it'd be really helpful. If you could do this or this. And then sometimes I have to say, I actually don't believe that's true, so I won't be able to do that next.

So you do not actually want what you think you want. Yeah, I don't. Yeah, yeah. I tell you what I think I could do that might be more helpful. Exactly.

“And if that's what you need, oh, I'm not your right person.”

Like, yeah, so that's such an interesting Jerry McGuire moment. Like, help me help you. Yeah, help me help you. And zero chance that I'm going to do your bidding for something. And yeah, it's not going to look like that.

OK, so you wanted to move forward. So I just went to move forward. That's OK. That's helpful to know. I felt like it was an elephant in the room, not talking about it.

And I think our next interaction then was months later when you invited me onto your podcast, which was shocked when you did. And I think I probably just said, I regretted the way that I captured your work in an article. And I don't think we aired it.

But I just said, committed to making that right moving forward. And that was the answer to that, it's intense. I'm going to tell you one thing that I think is weirdly surprising about you. That I've learned in the last couple of months. I don't think I've ever been, like, I think the shit that people think about us who

know us together or have been working on the podcast is, like, on the emotions person, you're the data person. I'm the left brain, you're the right brain.

Yeah. Oh, wait, no. I'm the right brain.

I'm qualitative, you're quantitative, you're empirical evidence.

I'm lived experience, you know, with empiricalizing, because that's just grounded theory. But I will say one of the things I found really surprising is I don't think I've ever been across from someone who has, that I have experienced taking more full accountability in a repair situation and issuing a more thoughtful apology than you. Thank you.

This has been a very big learning for me about what I could do better. Really? Yeah.

“And so I think at the top of that podcast, I chose not to air it.”

They actually, they asked me, like, wow, that was so beautiful. Do you want to put this include this on the podcast, because we were already recording? Wow. Yeah. And I said no, it was personal.

Do you still have it? I doubt it. I doubt it. I don't know. I don't know.

Do we keep this thing? I don't know. I don't know.

I'm curious to listen to it and learn from it.

Yeah. No. I think it was. Well, you mean your own apology? Yeah.

Oh, I've got one in another one from you in writing. More recent. Very recent. That was a two. Yeah.

Would you have not responded to it? Because we did over the phone. I know. But I wanted to document it to make it really clear that I understood the mistake I made. And I was going to correct it moving forward.

And I also wanted you to have it to share with your team.

“Because I think I left them feeling a little devalued.”

But you reached out to them individually. No. But okay. Well, I didn't even know who was affected. Okay.

Well, I just want to say that I think you're a repair and apology. Harriet Larner, who I did this podcast with on apologizing, she's just one of the greatest mentors and teachers, would be like damn y'all. This is, this is a master class and repair and apology. Well, thank you.

I appreciate it. What the fuck come from? I think it comes from, it comes from two places. I think I, I grew up in an environment where people didn't know how to repair. And I just, I don't, I don't know, I don't know, actually, I'm not trying to, I'm trying

to make sense of this. I think the short version is, let me try this again. I think there's something about being a child of divorce that led me to say, I'm going to be the peacemaker.

I'm going to make sure everyone always gets along.

And someone I learn, like one of my core values is kindness and generosity. And you can't always make sure that your behavior lands the way you want it to. And so if you don't get good at writing your wrongs, then you're going to have a lot of damage relationships.

“And so I think that was, I was in the background.”

I think I struggled early on. I really like being right, you know, this about me. Yeah. And admitting that I was wrong is, it's really hard for me. And when I struggled with something like that, I feel like I have to overcorrect in order

to build the skill that I'm trying to build and so I actually, it's something I started practicing. Allison, we give me a hard time because I didn't want to admit that I was wrong in an argument. And then the next day, I would have to very sheepishly come to her and do my little happy

Gilmour routine. Do you know the scene? No. Okay. So I'd come in and I'd be like, you were right.

I was wrong, you're smart, I'm stupid, you're good looking, I'm not attractive. Oh, no. It's a scene right out of Gilmour and we both start cracking up and I had to do that a bunch of times to get used to saying you were right, I was wrong and being okay with that. I can be a good person and admit that I did a bad thing.

I can be a smart person, still an admit that I got something wrong, I don't have to get an A+ and everything. That was a hard thing for me to learn and once I learned it, I felt like this is something I have to get good at if I care about people and I care about relationships. You're not a therapist, but thank you for inviting me to you.

No, I am definitely not. I know the thing people get wrong about me for sure, I have a therapist, too, couples and individual, I'm just blown away by the application of your rigor, the same application

I think I just have a big learning, which happens every time we talk about hard things, I

think, which is it's not hard for me to be wrong at all. Oh, I want to know more about how you got it. I don't think I repair and apologize as well as you do because I'm going to get better at that. I'm going to work on that because it's an interesting experience, I am wrong, that's

so great. I take a lot of comfort in knowing that I'm comfortable being wrong, like I like the fact

“I like that about me, like I can own stuff very quickly, but I think sometimes I don't”

look at the damage that being wrong did. Maybe because that's the feeling part of it that I don't like and so I can definitely cognitively be like, oh, I was so wrong, you're right, but I apologize, but your repairs are very specific, they feel, they don't let you or me off the hook in terms of accepting them.

You name very much. I apologize for this, I'm wondering if this left people feeling like this, that was not my intention. There was a gap between my intention and my impact. I see that, I apologize for it, I own it, I will coarse correct.

As you can see, the color is very nice, the color is very nice, the color is very nice, the color is very nice. Stop! Let's take a look at the recruiting spirit. With Stepstown All-Jobs, we will show you all the time for one year. In one package, we have a fixed price. Let's look at the 570% cost-probe value and the next time we have Flexible.

Now, let's take a look at Stepstown.de/All-Jobs.

Stepstown is the most important talent for all-Jobs.

“I think it's okay, so I want to go back to authenticity for a second.”

You said earlier, I was just thinking about this actually in the context of apologizing. I think when people put on armor, I think there are workplaces and families where people can't apologize because apologizing comes across as weakness exactly. My family. I just look at that. If you have wrong somebody or hurt someone or even done something that just had an impact that was different than what you meant,

refusing to apologize is not a sign of strength, it's a sign of narcissism. It's so interesting how we, I think one thing we share in common is I do think about the data when I think about who I want to be. Like, I do think about research when I think about, yeah, and so you do too, obviously. I don't know that I agree with a narcissism part.

“I think that it can be shame to apologize because I think when you're”

raised in a shame bound family that there's no difference between I did something wrong and I am wrong. I'm not, I'm a bad person, not I did a bad thing.

So you never get the adaptive effects of guilt.

You don't get the adaptive effects of I am a good person who made a choice that was hurtful to other people. I need to repair and make a different choice moving forward. You get a, I am not a good person. I am not worthy of love and belonging. So I think for a lot of people, which is interesting, in shame bound families, I think their, what the research shows is, is there are more disconnections and disruptions and ruptures and less apologizing for them?

Wow. So I think, and I think in my family, again, fifth generation taxon, you know, culture of honor, culture of honor and shame. Yeah. Well, I think, I think of shame as the flip side of, yeah. It's actually not the flip side of honor. Shame and honor live on the same side of the coin. Because they're both excessively image-focused. Managing self-perception and duty over commitment.

Wow. Yeah. I mean, I think in shame bound families, there's a duty to not talk about certain things.

Because duty is externally imposed, pressured, and commitment is internally chosen, and intrinsic. Yes, exactly. And duty, the law and duty, if you make a mistake, it's not a failure. Choice or behavior, it's a failure of your humanity. Wow. Yeah. Okay. So connect this back to authenticity now. You were saying earlier that we don't talk enough about the price of people pay for having to not bring their true selves to work or to home. Yeah. I think, in part, I mean, I think there's

a lot of interesting research on, you know, switching codes, switching. I think there's a lot of really important work done in that area already, but the price, unfortunately, is not just emotional and cognitive, the physical price of that kind of, having to be different people all the time, is so high. Well, I was thinking, in particular, about Patricia Helens work on facades of conformity, and how when, when you feel like you have to put on a mask in order to succeed professionally,

you see then higher rates of burnout, you see people becoming alienated from themselves, you see extreme stress, and I was starting to think that's what happens in shame-bound families, too.

For sure. I mean, you're going to Thanksgiving dinner, and you have to, you're basically an actor,

“playing a role, and what told is that take? Yeah, I mean, it's, it's really, that's why I think,”

I was going to try to pull up, let me pull up and see what the definition, let's see. Oh, God, I'm scared to look at it, y'all. I may not agree with my own definition anymore. Do you ever feel like that? Yes, and then, and then I think, wait a minute, this is a great learning opportunity, because- Oh, do you? Yeah, I think about Danny Conneman all the time, who said to me, when I realized I was wrong, it means I am now less wrong than I was before.

I've learned something. Great. I like that. I think, oh, shit. That's what I think. Let's see. And we need to get to our, what, what does this look like if the code's wrong? Yeah. Do we have time for that? Should we do that in the next episode? Yeah, because I really want to go through, so we are both big fans of- Wait, don't do it now. I'm forgetting to do it in the next episode, too. Okay, let's do it. Okay. I can't even find the definition, which is really-

Oh, yeah. No, it's being one's true self and setting boundaries to protect one's true self. So, I think it's both. It's encouraged to be real, letting go of perfectionism. It's a daily practice. It's a collection of choices. So, I think it's still what I think. You're rarely going to find me not having boundaries attached to some definition.

“Yeah, I think that's so important. Yeah, but it's usually left out. It is, and I left it out. My mistake.”

But I think we do two sometimes in our own work. Well, I mean, it's hard to communicate in

short-hand, right? It is. Capturing all the nuance in a few words is always a challenge, but

it's really interesting that you say that because we have a writer, like when we do podcasts, where are you laughing already? Just keep going. Yeah, um, that we have to improve all clips because right before I went off social media for almost a year, if I saw myself come up in a feed, in my own feed, which is a nightmare. Do you ever see yourself come up in your scrolling and you're like shit? Oh, why am I there? Yeah, why am I there? But I think the thing I

hated about it the most is how people were clipping me to seem so certain. And other than being all the pauses and all of the complexity, they'd asked me a question like, does the BlueJ call, you know, resemble the call of a red bird? And I'd be like, it's a really good question. I'm not sure. And my experience, which is limited, they're very different. And then the answer would be like, does the BlueJ and that they're very different? Like, and I was like,

what about the part where I was like, I'm unsure, you know, like, I don't know, and then the

“part behind it, it says, but I don't really, I'm not a birder. So you should really ask a birder.”

Like, and that's all. Yeah, socks. That's why I just went off social media because I was like,

I don't even trust me in these things. The advice, I, the, first of all, I hate giving advice, but just

what, what does a research show? What am I learning? What's worked in my life? I will share. But like,

Okay. So no one should clip the curiosity. I thought it could text. No, I mean, I hope you don't,

“but I mean, you're going to. What do you do? I think you hope that people will engage with the”

long form and that the, the short form is, it's a teaser. It's not the whole, it's not the whole concept. Not the whole idea. Yeah, it's not even the teaser. It's like a, I don't know. It's, yeah, I mean, it's dessert, but don't skip the meal. Yeah, maybe or it's part, it's, it's like, it's the plate that holds the ideas that you, you've clipped the plate, but not share the real ideas that are on the plate. That's dumb. Yeah, but I also, I also think we have a responsibility

to take complex research and distill it in a way where people can, you know, in short time,

take an idea and say, oh, I never thought about that. Let me now see if, you know,

if that leads to a change in my experience, my choices, my behaviors. I just agree. I'm all for that, really? Yes. Well, I think we have the, I think we have a harder job, which is to communicate complexity through story and analogy and metaphor that makes it understandable without reducing its complexity. Oliver Wendell Holmes, you know, this is one of my favorite quotes, right? Yeah. Okay. So, Holmes said something to the effect of

for the, he said, let me make sure I capture this right. He said something like, well, you can't

“wait, no, fact check me out. Oh, yeah. Okay. I think the way I remember the quote is, he said,”

for the simplicity on this side of complexity, I wouldn't give a fig, but for the simplicity on the other side of complexity, I would give anything. I think that's exactly right. Here it is right here. Okay, for the simplicity on this side of complexity, I wouldn't give you a fig. But for this simplicity on the other side of complexity, for that, I would give you anything I have. Pretty close. Okay. So, what does that mean? Well, I think about that as the,

there's simplicity, for simplicity on this side of complexity. Do you get your odd, aren't you? No, I'm not thinking about it in my mind, but yeah. Well, I think for me, the distinction there is, there's a difference between ignorance and simplicity and elegance, simplicity. Oh, yeah.

Ignorance and simplicity is naive, and it's missing critical information.

elegance and simplicity is capturing the nuance in, in few words, or in a really well drawn to by two diagrams. It is really hard, but when you do it, it's really sticky. Okay. I'm going to share, I'm going to share one of my favorite quotes. We can end here,

“and we can take our post-mortem to another episode, because I think we should do it. I think it's”

interesting. This is one of my favorite quotes, and this is weird. I'm looking next to have it on a screenshot. If I could communicate with you in screenshots, that would be, okay, these are all haircuts, and they're all the exact same haircuts. Are you picking you on my hair? No, oh my god. No, that's funny though. Um, you got a good noggin. Can I say that? Am I allowed to say that? I don't know. Are you? I don't know. I think you have a nice noggin.

Well, thank you. Okay. I don't know where this is. I prefer the apology compliment for the record. There's a bad compliment, excepter. You are the worst. I'm horrible at that. Yeah. I think I did okay today though on it. You did. I was trying to find this fight you were self-deprecate. No, you didn't. It's growth. I'll take it. Yeah, and I actually, that's, I love it when you do that. I can't find my fun quote, but um, they're mostly I just have like my kids playing, oh wait.

I can read this one to you, but it's about the feast of Mary, mother of the church, and she's gospel reading. I will not share that. I can go ahead for me. Yeah. Okay. Um. Okay. Wait. So we're going to, we need to go to our closing questions. I really am looking for my quote, give me two seconds. There are me and Steve at prom. Um, I can't, I don't even care. I we didn't have to cut this because this is what real life looks like, but I don't know where this

quote quote is, but I'm going to say it, maybe you can, you'll probably know it from memory. So you're attaining. It's a quote by a German philosopher that talks about the reason that complex simplicity is so rare is because it's mostly grossly misunderstood and requires some information to get. Like, like, I'm going to find it, put in the show notes, but like, please do. I love the way you just reframe that as as complex simplicity. That's a great paradox. But complex simplicity is why metaphor

in story and analogy to say, take something complex and then put in a dimension that people understand. No, it treats you. And this is why we're doing the show. I think the curiosity shop is all about

consumes way too much snake oil. And like I wish you leave it there. We should thank Canva and we should thank SAS for being kind of launch partner and sponsors with us. We're grateful for that. Okay, so this is exactly how this shit's going down. We have an agenda and we get on a rabbit trail of research and comfort. But this will get conversation. I really appreciated it and I do really appreciate your commitment to being good at repairing a apology. And I can say that it's

had an impact on me. Oh, well, thank you. Not just on the receiving end of it, but getting better at doing it myself. Well, but that only happens because I've started to do absorb some of your willingness to rumble and have difficult conversations that I was too much of a chicken to have for a lot of my life. And I just don't want to be that person anymore. Yeah, same. I work on it with you, Pinkie. Thank you. Oh, look, he goes for the fist bump. I

go Pinkie promise. All right, first episode in the can. What are we saying? We did it. I don't know.

I think we should do our zero to 10 rating and give each other a note on how we can do better next time. Okay. Um, now the zero to 10 is going to seem to. Yeah. No, no, no, it's not just zero to 10. What's what? What's something I and we can do better next time? I don't know how to use this. I don't know how to use this. But I want to be able to look up things and get my notes. But maybe

“that's just like my magical thinking that that's what I want to do. But I do want to use it. But”

right now, we're just staring at a picture of Hannah Wattonum because I really like her hair. And I was wondering what skin products she was using. So this is not what's supposed to be up here. Focus for a photo. I know. I can't. I can't. What do you, what's something you think we can do better?

I think, I know, I really enjoyed the, I love how free form our riffing is. Same. I always come

away with new ideas. And, you know, I think one thing we can do more of, this isn't a better yet. But one thing we can do more of is, I found myself smiling every time you said, I don't agree with that. And that is, we've come a long way from, I was so pissed off when you wrote that, that feast. Yeah, yeah, I was shaking and I, you know, I rarely a moat. It was, it was an unusual experience for me. And so to be in a place now where you can say, I disagree. Yeah. And I'm not bothered and actually

“excited to learn and also, you know, to make it a little bit, I love that. I think we, we can”

probably find a little bit more attention until actually. No, I don't think we should look for it. Okay. But we, I mean, we can have meta-tension around that. I think, this is such a great way to wrap it up. I think if we're both authentically who we are. Have I earned the right to be authentic? Yes, you have. You earned the right to see my authenticity. Yeah, I think I, I think I have. Six years ago, we were not. No, we were not.

But I think for both just ourselves here, the tension is going to be organic. Yeah, that's right. Because we just don't see the world the same way. Nope. But we see the same world, which is weird.

“And value the same thing. And we value the same thing. Yeah, mostly. Yeah, I think so.”

Let's do it. Welcome. We're glad you're here. Come back. We'll still be on our first

agenda from podcast one by the end of the season. Finally fun. Thank you. Thank you. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.foxmedia.com.