How This Podcast Could Fail

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That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you, try Odo for free at Odo.com. That's OdoO.com. Welcome to the Curiosity Shop. A show from the Fox Media podcast network.

Hi everybody, this is the Curiosity Shop on Renee Brown. Welcome. I'm Adam Grant. I'm excited that we're here again, that was the first episode was much more fun than I expected.

Yeah, me too. I was nervous, were you nervous at all? I wasn't nervous going in, but I started getting nervous when we started talking about

“our fight argument, what do you call it at dust up?”

Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, because I wasn't sure how that was going to go.

And we had never, it's weird that we just did it on the podcast as opposed to doing it

like in person. But I felt like we had to talk about it because it's the origin story. It is the origin story. I actually, do you know I started podcasting because of that fight? I've never told you this.

Okay, so 2016, I write that New York Times piece. I quote you, you write your strongly worded SmackDown. I respond to you respond. I don't know what to do at that point because I felt like it was unresolved. I was, I was really upset that you clearly thought I was not a respectful person, not

a careful scholar, and I also, I felt like there was a lot more to explore in the differences between our views that we had and gotten to. And I reached out to Ted and I said, "Hey, two of your speakers are having this very public debate. Have you ever thought about doing instead of just people doing monologues, a debate at

that, and they said no, but this would make for a really interesting podcast." You're kidding. No.

And so that was my first conversation ever about podcasting.

And the thought was that Ted was going to host it and you and I, somebody was going to moderate, we were going to have a conflict mediator, try to reconcile our differences. Because I was so, I was so, I had no idea of any of this. I was so distraught as I thought that it would just be left hanging, and that we wouldn't work it out.

And then it was very clear that you did not want to engage from the signals you had said.

“And I also, I think it's done enough that I was like, you know what, I don't want to have”

a relationship with her, and that morphed into, I'm going to create a podcast with Ted. If you watched his great podcast, you're welcome. That was all you've been at, for the whole of you, but here we are. Yeah. Is that wild?

Literally 10 years later, doing a podcast together. And it's been bumpy. Very bumpy. Sometimes, literally. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah.

you, we do the, you invite me to do the work with you. We do the work together with the women's sports team. What happens from there? Are you, I invite you on the podcast. I loved our conversation on the podcast, and it became one of my most downloaded podcasts

of my whole series.

And then you were the first episode of the new podcast I launched.

We just, so we did one where I got to interview you. And then we started doing the rotating conversations with Simonson and Simonson again. And we did a bunch of those, and it was fun.

“And I think we also started then overlapping more events as opposed to, oh, you were there”

two days ago, and then I showed up, or you were there last year, and then I did this year. We started seeing each other more. Yeah. And then we ended up on a flight together. Then, oh, but before we got on the flight the night before, we were on stage together

for the first time. Oh, and that did not go well. That did not go well. Well, I think it, I think it went well for the audience. It went well.

Yeah, it went well for the audience.

I think we got into a conflict that I think was supposed to be fun, but it didn't feel fun for me. And I was completely oblivious to that. Yeah. I thought we were just having a fun debate.

Yeah. And then I was like, dang it, here we go again. And the next morning, we had to get on a flight, and I was frustrated, and we had a really, we were having kind of a tension-filled conversation about it. This is my memory of it.

And then we hit turbulence.

“And then I looked at you, and you said, are you okay?”

Like, very turtally almost, are you all right? And I said, no, I'm scared. And you said, and you weren't, you were so kind, you weren't judge it all. You said something like, oh, are you afraid of flying? And I said, no, I'm afraid of dying, which it feels like I think we're going to do right

now, because this is engineering, and from an engineering perspective, this should not be happening. And then you were just kind of like, no, from an engineering perspective, this makes total sense. And then you kind of talked me through it. And then I was like, okay.

And then we had a good conversation about what about that stage dynamic worked and what didn't work. And then I think it's because we're different enough that I see you in a way where you're one of the most earnest people, but no, no, that I've ever met. So I can find myself being less armored with you very quickly, because so when you say something

that's funny and sarcastic or zingy, which is like how I grew up, and what I am very good at it, I'm actually really good at sarcasm and do it with the couple of my friends nonstop. But when you do it, I don't know, because you're so earnest, I think you're saying something really like, oh, shit, he's mad, or oh, man, he thinks he doesn't think I'm smart, or

something like that, and you're being sarcastic just for levity. Yeah, exactly, to not be overly earnest. To not be, because you don't, you don't want to be overly honest. No, I don't, I want to, I hope, you know, it comes across that I care about people and

“honestly an integrity or important to me, but I also have a little edge, right?”

I don't want to sound like a polyana. Right. No, right. And so, yeah, so it was, it's just like getting to know people today, especially, I would not consider myself an easy person, I'm a pretty complex person.

Pretty complex. Almost as complex as you, and you're good. Much more. I knew you were going to say that because you see yourself as simplicity, what you see is what you get.

You're like the Wizzy-Wit Guy. You're not. I don't know if that means forgot. Yeah, what you see is what you get, like you're just, you're not complex. I, I think I'm straightforward, am I not straightforward?

No. Why not? Because there's a distance between some things about you that I think are genuine,

and some ways that you are always self-improving, and like, I don't think overly earnest

is polyana, but that's your read on it. I think it's unusual and awesome. Yeah, and so, but you know, like the sarcasm thing, I'm really careful about, you know, the other thing is, I'm a word person, like words, like you've noticed this. Oh, yes.

Like words. I thought I was wanting to like make you. I don't know what that means, but it doesn't sound good. I'm like a word person, but like, you know, the Greek origin of the word sarcasm to tear flesh.

Ooh. That's biting. Yeah. And I also think it's like, last episode, we talked about how you're, how I really complimented

family, I also come from that. And so, but I also come from one that was very, as the old, I have the oldest daughter thing, which you probably should stay aware of, because you've got an oldest daughter, and I've got an oldest daughter, right? But like that, when teasing broke out in my family, our sarcasm broke out, I was immediate,

like, oh God, like, there's just seen from Mary Poppins when like the Admirals getting ready to blow the cannon, and the housekeepers run around and make sure everything, nothing falls off shelves. So soon as sarcasm and teasing started, in my family, I got hyper vigilant, because this is going to end in tears for somebody.

That makes so much sense, and I come at it from a completely different place, which is,

“I think about, and there's a little whole body research on post social teasing.”

Yes.

I would never, I would never tease you if it weren't a sign of affection.

So how do we reconcile this, too, because sports, shit talk, is my love like trash. I love trash talk. This is in the same category as that for me. I love trash talk. Okay, next time you say something that I'm like, whoa, I'm like, are you shit talking

me and you'll be like, yeah, I'm okay, maybe, or I could just do it less. No, no, let's try it, we'll just try it, okay, because I do love, I am such a trash talker. You are. And that makes it seem like, I mean, I think this, this kind of sarcasm is, it's at least a near cousin.

It is a definitely a first cousin. A trash talk. Yes. It seems like it would elicit the same reaction, but it doesn't, so, well, because I'm telling

you, there's a, there's a trigger there.

“No, there's a, we leave this in the podcast or not, because I think Adam has been diagnosing”

me over the last month. No one diagnosed anyone, ever. But I'm just telling you that you have round edges, and sarcasm has sharp points. And so there's a disc, like there's a disconnect for me, because you're not a pointy person. He's convinced that I have shapes in the studio.

I think you might. Because I see everything in shapes. And so, like, so for, for pointy, shape for pointy people, I'm expecting it, but from around people, I'm not. Okay.

And so, let me see if I can translate that into psychology, like, I hear that I, when I hear is, I'm a personality wise, I'm a highly agreeable person. And that is, hey, I'll know.

I'm interpersonately, not intellectually.

I care about social harmony, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. But I will debate ideas. Right. And,lessly. So, say it again, but caveat, the agreeability.

Yeah, maybe, maybe I'll try to be more specific on this.

“So, I think within, within agreeableness, I, I probably lead with a fair amount of warmth”

and trust. Yes. And, like, then there's this sort of harder, like, the sarcasm is more disagreeable. It's more adversarial, and it, so it doesn't fit. No.

No. I don't think. Okay. Let's go back a different way. What is round pointy then?

I think you mean what you say, and you say what you mean. Oh. You do not mince words. So if you look at me and go, nice cowboy shirt, Dalai Parton, that I'm like, yeah, because, like, so I, it's not, I can't match you

in the word agreeability in any context. I think we're off the charts on agreeableness. Yeah. No. I can't.

I think you are, is it sincere or straightforward? Yeah. Yeah. That's in the honesty, humility, access, interestingly. Yeah.

Is it more tough to tell more people what that means? One of the models of personality that has kind of emerged along with the big five is Mexico, which reinterpret some of the, you know, the standard extroversion, emotional stability, openness, agreeableness, consciousness, and then adds this honesty, humility trick, which is about being straightforward and sincere and having integrity, and I aspire

to be all of those things. And so you're saying the sarcasm does not fit in with those things, and it feels like a conflict for you. Yes. Okay.

So that's so interesting, because the way that I look at that is different, which is, I'm all those things, and therefore everyone will know not to take my sarcasm at face value. Oh, I think that's a, that's a, that's a wildly assumption at him grant. I would make you, as long as I can remember without realizing it until now.

So that's a, that's a, that's a wildly assumption. So I think there's a new Texas measurement tool called the bullshitter analysis.

So I am like a, I'm like a storyteller kind of like that kind of gift of, yeah, I'm trying

to see if gift of God works for me. Yeah, maybe, but I would just see more storyteller bullshitter, how are you, like my dad would be like, how you doing all of a sudden, and you know, you say something like, well, I'm doing okay, I got a broke mom, I'm, I had breaks bigger than that of my eyeball, you

“know, like that's how my dad, that's how that's what I come from.”

And so when I'm, when I'm, so my dangerous area around sarcasm is not when I'm in a bullshitt sports talk thing, like on the court, I'm very, like if there's a celly, I do it. It's a noxious as hell. Um, that's why we can't ever get out of court. I would probably can't play tennis or take a ball.

Might be the end of a friend. We could be the end, especially if we ever played as doubles partners, because if you're going to come over on my side and take a ball, you damn well better in that point. I would obviously. Okay, all right, so the thing with sarcasm that's hard for me, for people, I think, is not

when I'm in my band term mode, but I can be, I know, this you'll find this surprising, a very intense person. What? I know. Never.

Chocking. Never had a clue.

Yeah, so when I'm intense, I cannot use sarcasm like people.

Because it, it comes on too strong. It, it comes on as passive aggressive. Yes. Oh, okay. Yep, I can, I can imagine that.

Yeah. So, okay, so I'm curious for our listeners. We have, we have new listeners, right? I hope so. How many people, because we, we process this differently, I'm curious about how many people

look at these things like you do and say, wait a minute, like you're, you're a straightforward, kind of clear, sincere, communicator. And therefore, you shouldn't be sarcastic because that's not who you are. Now, how many people look at it like I do and say, I interpret that behavior through the lens of what I know about your personality.

I wonder which is more common.

And I obviously think, might just walk up and then you're the outlier.

And I'm excited to find out if I'm rock. Yeah, I don't know. Well, let's pose it on LinkedIn and have people waiting. Oh, we can, we can just have people comment on YouTube now. Oh, that's right.

And unspotted fine. Wait, do we have comments up on YouTube? We do not have comments on YouTube. All right. We talk about that later.

Yeah. We should have a podcast on that. We should. Podcast on comments. Yeah.

A lot of thoughts. Let's do that. Because I've got them closed everywhere. And I haven't opened. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. I said that to our list. Support for the show comes from Odo. Running a business is hard enough.

So why make it harder with it doesn't different apps that don't talk to each other. Introducing Odo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more.

And the best part, Odo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost.

“That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch.”

So why not you? Try Odo for free at Odo.com. That's OdoO.com. Support for the show comes from Odo. Running a business is hard enough.

So why make it harder with it doesn't different apps that don't talk to each other. Introducing Odo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more.

And the best part, Odo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odo for free at Odo.com. That's OdoO.com.

I think this is a great segue to the topic of today's podcast, which is we've already started talking through the thing we didn't get to last episode, which is how could this go around. And one way I think this partnership could go around is if I am sarcastic in ways that lead you to feel attacked, and then you either get defensive or attack and reverse, and

“then we end up in the kind of, I think, like, prosecutor Spiral that we got into 10 years ago.”

OK. So what do you think? I think that's absolutely true. I want to break it down for everyone listening because my hope is that we can do this honestly together, and I'm sure it'll have some strange and weird entertainment value for

folks listening to us figure out where we could fail. But I also want to share this as a tool that we both believe in. So let's welcome back a little bit, and let's talk about this is a pre-mortem. And this is Gary Klein's book, It came out at an HBR, I wrote down the date. Do you know how old this is?

Does it? Yeah, so 2007 was the big famous HBR article, Harvard Business Review, where he introduced this idea of a pre-mortem. In the pre-mortem, the way, and we both use it, and we both teach it, and we, you and I are inside working with senior leader teams all the time.

And when I teach them this, it goes to shit in 15 minutes when they try it. Fast, but it's so important for them to try it. It's so important for them to try it, and we'll talk about what it doesn't work as we do it.

“So this is a pre-mortem, the idea, it's two things I think together, it's a risk assessment.”

So Adam and I are going to do a pre-mortem on the curiosity shop. So it's a form of doing a risk assessment, and it's also, and this is a researchy word, so we'll talk about it, perspective hindsight. Prospective hindsight, nailed it, if it's not our paradox. Yeah, say, which I love, you know, I love a paradox.

I never met a paradox. I didn't love. That's true. I've come around on those two. Thank you.

They're, I think, they're really useful. It's being able to see the future in the present, basically. So Prospective, looking forward, hindsight, look at that. So the question that I use for pre-mortem, go ahead. No, no.

The question I use for pre-mortem and how I teach teams to use it is, we're sitting at this table, and, you know, we have a this new project. It's six months from now, and it's gone to shit. We have absolutely this project has absolutely failed. Yeah.

What will we be talking about around the failure of this? What are the topics that we be talking about then that we should be addressing now? We do this very similarly. Okay, tell me. So I do a little bit of a little set up around it.

Okay, great. Where I like to ask, how many of you do post-mortems after you fit? And every body. Yeah. Yeah.

We know the importance of the after-action reviews and debriefing. And, you know, my reaction to that is, that's a great process. But it is the dumbest time to do it. Why would you wait till you've already failed? Right.

Why do you love to have a time machine at that point? Why not have that conversation up front and try to anticipate and prevent some of those mistakes? But I love that set up. I'll be borrowing that. Oh, yours.

Okay.

What I, what I find really powerful about pre-mortems and I think this is one of the lessons

of Gary's research is they make people better at seeing around corners, but they also give people the permission to talk about the things that could go wrong that they're afraid to admit. Amen. So, say those two things again, I call them the turkey peak because in the military, when

you look around a corner, because we both work with the military a lot, you know, you're doing the around the corner. So, say the two things while you think they're great. Yeah. So, I think the first thing is, I go farther out, I usually ask three to five years.

Okay. If, you know, if the decision you're making right now or the project you're launching is just an unmitigated disaster, what are the most likely causes?

“And so, then you have to start looking in places you haven't looked before.”

It's a very wide-end, it takes you out of tunnel vision, it gives you a better peripheral vision. I think that's the first thing. And then the second thing is, it's a conversation where you're supposed to talk about the risks.

Yeah. And that invitation. Exactly. And the way you said risk assessment. I never crystallized it.

That's exactly what you're doing.

You're inviting people to say, here's what I'm concerned about.

Here are some issues that we haven't talked about that really could be a problem. I got to tell you that my favorite thing about being in the room with teams I'm working with when they run a pre-mortem is the quiet, more introverted, usually highly analytic people who are often told that they are constantly raining on people's parades around enthusiasm and group projects will be the first to race their hand and say, I think will

be examining the assumptions around these data. Yes. And I see also people who tend to be more defensive pessimists than strategic optimists who have learned to self-sensor because they're dragging people around with their worrying. On a sudden, they have a voice, same for people who tend to be highly disagreeable, who

have sort of been taught to stand down that edge can say, oh, well, this is a point where people are actually willing to hear my critique, because we can still do something about it. The thing, go ahead. Oh, no, go ahead.

No, go ahead. Okay.

Before we dive into the specifics, I never thought about this before, but this has so many

applications outside the workplace. I think that when friends become roommates for the first time, they should do a pre-mortem.

“I think that marriages, the pre-mortem conversation, that's more important than the pre-nap”

conversation. It is 100%. I think this relationship goes wrong. I think when you have a child, I think it would have been so valuable for Allison and I

we might make and how do we avoid this? You know, it's interesting because Steven and I have had, we didn't come pre-mortems, but when

I was pregnant with Eleanor Oldus, we basically spent.

“I can remember, it was so powerful, I can remember where I was sitting and what I was”

wearing when we basically went through what now I know was a pre-mortem about when, yeah, because I was about, it was a wild day, actually. I was probably eight or nine months pregnant, I was very pregnant and he asked me a question on a walk about, I was so scared because I was in my PhD program and when I told the then head of the doctoral program that I was pregnant, his response was, we thought

you were going to be someone, yeah. So it got very tricky because I got really smart assy and very much like, hey, it's a baby not a lobotomy and I was very defensive, obviously. Yeah, because such an inappropriate comments. Yeah, and as if you can't have a career and a child.

Yeah, although the research at the time which he pointed out was like, parenthood and getting married were really good for male, untenured professors and very bad for female, untenured professors. So that was true, everybody needed a wife, you know, and so, so I was really scared and defensive and what ended up happening was I got hyper-emesis, so I got that thing where

my progesterone levels were very high and so I threw up every day, I had to take a leave of absence from the PhD program and it was interesting because it was a female-tenured professor who said, you have sat in my class and thrown up in the trash can for the last time. She said, I've had several miscarriages that I attribute specifically to the stress of academia.

We will be here when you were better and you know, and I was sick for the first trimester

and then I came back, but it was just the layers of stuff, but that prompted this hard conversation where Steve said, what do you want from your career, and that's when I said I want to start a global conversation about shame and vulnerability, so that was 27

“years ago, and then I said, and he said, who do you think we want to be?”

And where do you think, who do we not want to be as parents? Because we had no models of what marriage looked like, there were great things our parents did in a lot of things we wanted to do differently, because we just have more information. So we had a long conversation and wrote it down actually, like where we would look back and think, this is not what we want to do or who we want to be.

Wow. Yeah, so we actually, I, so I was just a pre-mortem. We kind of did the pre-mortem.

Yeah, it was, because we said things that we, things that we heard growing up that we don't

ever want to say, because I said so, this is my house. You know, we wanted to say, yes, every time we could, you know, just things that we were trying to, and the biggest thing that Steve said in that moment, who's a pediatrician, said, there was a difference between trauma and adversity. We had a lot of trauma growing up, both of us.

We didn't want that for our kids, but we didn't want to over-correct and protect them from adversity.

“Can you just flesh out what the difference is and how you've done that?”

I think trauma sets us back and adversity makes us stronger. And so I think they were about real assessments of, is this uncomfortable or is this actually unsafe? Yeah. You know, is this something where you can learn and feel protected or is this something

where you will feel unsafe? Mm-hmm. You know, and I think trauma is about unsafe too. Yeah. That's a really helpful mistake.

Yeah. And I go back to Shelley Eurum from Harvard, I saw her, one of those things, where, you know, go, go to a hotel lobby and someone gives her presentation all day like a seminar. And she did this thing about what is trauma and what isn't that we used to inform her parenting a lot.

She said on it, she had someone sit on a chair and she popped a balloon in front of them. And they didn't like it very much. But then she said, I'm going to tie your hands and legs to this chair and do the same thing. And that person said, "Absolutely, I can't do that." And she said, "That's a difference."

Uncontrol. I don't have any control over my own well-being. And so I thought, I don't know if that's its official, just for all the therapists out there and all the trauma experts. I am not one.

We are not, you know, social workers, psychologists went to the research side, not the clinical side. But I thought the loss of control and safety were interesting. So it was very powerful. Yeah, we did pre-mortem.

One of the things I've also done, which I'll be interested in, and you're taking on this,

So if this class ends up in your mind being a failure, when it's over, even though we only

“have 15 weeks together as a master, what will we be saying from your perspective in mine?”

What are your students saying most often on that? The learning that comes out of a qualitative analysis of what mine are and theirs are is if they don't take equal responsibility for their learning, that they are passive in that my job is to teach, their job isn't to learn. It will also be a failure if my job is to come in from a consumer perspective to make them

happy and not challenge them into discomfort. That's so interesting. So we do pre-mortem even when we teach. I didn't realize that I've been doing the results of it. Without having the pre-mortem conversation, I take the post-mortem.

I'm from the mid course and end of semester evaluations that I get every year, and then

I open the next year's class by saying, one of the common ones is there are always complaints

that we don't have enough debate in class, because people are afraid of challenging me, and they're also afraid of damaging their relationships with their new classmates, especially with MBA students. Oh, yeah. Undergrads worry about it too.

And so I say, "Look, I don't think we have enough debate in the classroom." And then I give them a mechanism, which is they can hold up a pen if they disagree. And that way, I will jump the line and call them the people with the pen up so that they get to bring in some of that productive descent. But that's pre-mortem-enformed.

Yes. Pedagogy, right? It is. It is. It is.

It is. It is. I never thought to do the actual pre-mortem. I like anything that's a parallel process, you know, that we're doing it, but we're also kind of learning it.

Okay. So let's get you in.

So if this fails, I mean, unfortunately, the time for these failing is pretty quick.

So let's say it's a year from now, 12 months from now. And this is not worked out. What are, what are we were like? We should bring right now.

“Yeah, I think he's going to bring right now.”

Most likely causes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can watch this. So we already covered the kind of this arc as a attack. What's the broader category for that?

I think the broader category is, I mean, from my perspective, tell me if this is right, is the disagreement doesn't come from a place of care. Yes. And respect. So we will fail if disagreement doesn't come from care.

Yes. Can I add one? Yeah, please. Wait, wait, wait. I want a little more time.

Okay, okay. Okay, okay. To capture. Otherwise, we can fail. You do.

I've got three more. While we're writing this down, I want to say one of the reasons why it's important for us to do this is because when you start a podcast, we're building a business that is a podcast. We're not just talent that's been hired to do something that we're building actually

the business of the podcast together. So all of a sudden, we have found ourselves being co-founders. So we're navigating the founder, hard bullshit, and a co-founder thing. So that's why this matters. It's not like we can show up and anchor the news and be like, and today, and then

thank you, and then like walk out there and be like, I hate you, and then we just come back in the next day. We're behind the scenes, building, which was a sustainable business, which we didn't agree on when we started. No.

And there might still be a little bit of tension in our eyes. There's been hard, because I've been like, we need to invest more time in this, and he's like, maybe you know, I'm like, I'm ding it. That's on my list. No surprise.

Yeah, let me do. Okay, hold on.

“I got one more that I think I want to capture here, which is.”

Okay. I've got four. I've got also four. Okay. Go ahead.

Do you want to just compare lists, and not explain yet? No. What do you want to do? What do you want to do? He's just wanted to say no.

No. No. No. No. I don't want to do that.

What do I do? Because I don't want to, like, I'm going to add why I said no to my goddamn list. Please do. I just want to hear everything on yours, and then have the full picture of which one should we spend more and less time on?

No. And I don't want to leave what you write open to my interpretation. So I want you to go through them, and I want to get clear with a playback. Okay. Can we do it?

Yes, go, go. Okay. All right.

So the first one is if we're not aligned on what our team is trying to accomplish.

I have something similar. Go ahead. Okay. That needs no explanation, right? Okay.

Second one is if we end up nerding out and getting too wonky, and we lose all the non-economics. Okay. True. I have it, but it's true.

A third is if we end up being either too timely or too timeless. Okay. I agree. No explanation needed. No.

And let me just explain what that means, because this is like a little bit inside

We've had a conversation where we want this to, we want to be with y'all in a way

where what we say is timely and feels relevant for your lives. But also isn't like, do, do, do, do, do, do break you news. What are you thinking about the news yesterday? We want it to be timeless and we want it to be relevant and meaning the moment at the same time.

So that's what that meant, right? Well, articulate. Okay. Yes.

“And then the last one is just not coming up with, I think this is the most minor of”

the four, but not coming up with a communication process that keeps us aligned. Okay. That's very true. I'm firing off quick emails. And you have spent five days, you know, right, writing the perfect text.

Yes. Okay. Yeah.

So that's actually how it happened.

I think you want to know. All right. So I loved the disagree from not a place of care. That's true. We have not built systems that support the organizational goals.

That's a broader version of my last point as you, I like yours better. But we just don't build the system. I'm thinking of James Clears, we do not rise to the level of our goals. We fall to the level of our systems. So this is also, yeah, we'll just do that.

Okay.

“I just agree with James on that, by the way, I think we do both.”

Interestingly, I agree wholeheartedly and I've got a three by three sign in our office in Houston that is like spotlighted with plants around it just to drive home the point. We don't agree on how business should be run. I don't know what this says. We didn't give, oh, easy.

Oh, I think because of the, I think because of the season we are in our lives, and especially me, I've got a, I've got a, I've got a time on you. Age wise, because of the business, the business of both of our lives and the season of my life that I'm particularly in right now. If this is not energy giving, if this is just becomes energy taking, I don't, I think we

will call it quits. It will not fail, but we'll say it's failed. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's right.

I've made one more to add. Okay. Which is, I think if we don't get good at, well, if we don't continue to practice the feedback and repair regularly, yeah, absolutely. Because I, I have built, in the past year that we've been talking about doing this,

I have built so much confidence that we can disagree about anything and work it out because

“we're both committed to fixing whatever mistakes we make, and I think that, that to me”

is, is sort of vital to whatever micro wrong in the other categories. Okay. I'm having a meta moment. So I will say that I am shocked that when there's a conflict between us, and there have been several, even if I'm frustrated, which I can get frustrated, I think I typed

you the word frustrated. Yeah. You did. I did. I have a very much faster confidence in our ability to become stronger because of our disagreements

in our rumbles. Same. Then what would be predictable in two people coming together to build a business? It's unusual, but I, I'm going to tell you that I think we have complementary skills here.

I think you are much better at apology and repair than I am, and I think I'm pretty good at hard conversations. Yeah. And both of those things need to happen. They both have to happen.

Yeah. I mean, like, you, if you are really good at difficult rumbles and difficult conversations, what you, with hold repair, or you don't know how to do it, or apology, it doesn't work. Yep. And if you're really skilled at apology and repair, but can't stay in the messiness of

a hard conversation.

It never gets fully resolved.

It doesn't give us anything from the conflict, it's going to get repeated. So I think, I think we're, I think we're really good at those things. So I think I liked the fact that you said, if we continue to do them, is there one thing that we've talked about that you're the most worried about? Yeah.

I think it's, I think it's the combined category of what it looks like to be a successful team together slash, you know, co-found something together. I don't even like calling it a business. I don't want to build businesses. I think of myself as an intellectual entrepreneur.

I want to build ideas and share them. Right. And I hear it's not to that or just sit there. Okay, it's an intellectual entrepreneur, okay, now, okay, so this also reflects how we intervene

And you have more impact.

Because you are willing to roll your sleeves up more than I do. I don't know about impact. I mean, I don't, okay, well, I, I am deeply embedded and I am like brought into conversations and sit in strategy meetings where I'm not only observing the behavior of the leaders, but I'm weighing in hot, how, on how they're thinking about relocating supply chain.

And I, I, you cannot give me a parachute faster. Okay. It's conversations, I only want to be in that deep if I'm, if I'm running an experiment or doing a longitudinal survey and then we're going to publish research out of it. Got it.

And I'm doing that to, I'm doing that, I'm doing that different. I do that. We do dear to lead interventions.

So dear to lead is the work and we go in and work with companies and sometimes these

interventions will include 30,000 people. And I'll be working at the kind of the C-suite level and the direct reports of the C-suite. But they are very tactical, very messy and very detailed. Like I'm in the detail on the weeds. I'm embedded.

Yeah.

“I mean, I think I would follow sleep in the first minute.”

Okay. Yeah. I mean, so. Is that the one you were most concerned about, too? For sure.

Yeah. Okay. Maybe we should talk a little bit about the logo design as a microcosm of this. Or maybe we shouldn't. No.

I'm thinking, I'm thinking, yes, I think we can, because we learn so much. I learn so much from you, I want to, there are parts of the way you move through the world with the same organizations. We work with a lot of the same organizations, which is weird, that I really admire and ammoving toward.

And so I've learned a lot from you, I mean, I've really learned a lot from you.

“I think the logo design is an interesting, yeah, it's interesting.”

But what would you say about it? I think nervous. I'm anxious about the conversation a little bit, but let's go. I don't know if it's helpful or not. I'm sure we'll concrete example.

I think so you volunteered to have your team take the lead on designing the logo. And I thought, okay, we work really differently. You have an intact team that you collaborate with and almost everything, right? Yeah. I'm much more autonomous and I have, I have kind of project specific teams that do certain

things, but they're not with me all the time. Right. And I have a podcast team, they're all kind of separate, right? And so the fact that you have this intact team, I thought, wow, it's really generous of you to volunteer to do this.

And also, you have much more aesthetic sensibility and care about design details, and I don't

know the first thing about any of it.

So it makes sense on all levels. And then you set me a draft, which I superimposed my mental model of how design works, which is, most of my design is book covers, and we just come up with 20 or 30 ideas. And it's, you know, it's very little thought initially put in because we want to look at a whole bunch of ideas and then align on which directions we like before we do any refining

or, you know, improving. And so I thought that's what I was getting.

“And I was hyper critical, I think, and that was not what I got, right?”

No, you got, you got the best iteration of probably 50 hours of work. And I felt so terrible, so terrible because I, I thought it was maybe an hour or two work that had gone into it. But let's, let's get underneath what was really happening there because this is where shit goes bad in real life, in, in our partnerships with our kids and our teams.

What was really going on there is I do have an in tech team, but I have a very new team, some new people. I mean, I've been, you know, the CEO of a company for a long time. I knew how you felt about business building. So I tried to protect you from it, which is my, my therapy and business coaching work for

fricking decades, by just giving you something final and then being, and the, and the, what you sent to me was not shareable with a creative team that had been working hours and hours for that. Oh, no, no, yeah, because I give you lead a creative team, you're, you know, it's just different. And so I think what came out of that was me saying to you, you said something like,

how are you in an email or, what are you feeling? Yeah, and I tried to guess if you can't, yeah, I just said, I'm really frustrated. And then we had a conversation, which was I am trying to find more space and time and flow and freedom in my life. I am like, I've won the parenting lottery that I've adult kids who want to hang out with

Yeah.

I am going to play pickleball, tennis, whatever, six days a week, not tennis, I'm

playing pickleball, six days a week. I'm going to have a different life right now. I want to write and do deep thinking. And I said, I don't want to read this business by myself. And I don't want to protect you from the sausage making because if we're going to be

in this together, but I teed up an idea to you, which was why don't we not build a business and let's just be like the talent and let somebody else own the podcast and own the business. I mean, they're of us wanted to do that. And you were like, I don't want that. Then I said, well, then we're signing up to build a business and how are we going to do

that? And then you said, I'm going to take equal responsibility for the sausage making. Yeah. And that was one of the best things that's ever happened for me. I mean, I'm committed.

Yeah. I've, you know, you talked about, well, one of the things I've learned from you is you not only have really great collaborative relationships.

“There's a lot of joy in those in those relationships and I think your life is more”

full because you work with people that you really like and care about. And I do that, but I do it in in pieces. And I thought, oh, it would actually be fun to have a team that's more complete and be part of that team, and I need to learn how to do more of that because my mantra for a long time has been, I want to try to have maximum impact with minimum independence.

I want to be as autonomous and free as possible. And that doesn't work when you're trying to build something collaborative that really makes a difference. So I think I'm a work for that. I think we still have different ideas about how a team can work most effectively and

efficiently together. And that's what we're going to have to work through. And we're doing it there today because I think I have a lot to learn from you and I want to do that. I think as long as we are honest about I think what will kill us both in kill the business

is stealth expectations. Yes. That's a great phrase. Both expectations. Yes.

Right about that in dear to Lee. Yes. Stealth expectations. We put things on the table. We talk about the why behind them.

I invest a lot of time at front with teams or try to or believe I do and I'm not very good at it because I actually want to be an electrical entrepreneur.

“And that's why when we got to the point where I thought you were locked into that and not”

being a co-business owner, this shit's not going to work. Because I'm moving out of that into the intellectual entrepreneur part like and so I can't take that on. Well, so I think one of the lessons from that was I need to bring people over the table to our team.

So it's not just me as an appendage on your team. Right.

And I can't be translating things from critical autonomous intellectual to how teams can

hear things. No. And I think that was one of the mistakes that I made, which I knew I was making in the moment and I still chose to make it and I'm not proud of that. So you sent this design, which was beautiful and I failed to say that.

I had a question about whether it represented what our show was going to be and I gathered some feedback and other people had the same reaction independently. And so I thought, OK, I need to get that efficiently to you. And Allison happened to be looking over my shoulder when I was writing the email and she said, you can't say that to Bernay.

“You can't and I said, why not? And she said, you need to really spell out that you appreciate”

the quality of the work and you just have these questions. And I said, I can't have a real both partnership and friendship where I can't be honest. And I have to walk on eggshells and couch things and pull punches. And I found it really efficient in my collaborations to just be direct and ask other people to be direct too. And she said, you're going to regret this.

And she was right because I could have been, I was trying to be clear, but I didn't do it in the kind of way. So I think what's interesting here is I don't, I would back, so if I were watching this happen with a team that I was working with, what I would say is you were not, you missed

an essential part of scrum or agile process, which is what does done look like.

And so if I would have said, okay, my team's happy to handle, how involved in iteration do you want to be? I should, yeah, if we had that conversation, I would have said, bring me in early, so that you don't end up going, you know, spending in an unproductive direction collectively. And also, I'm probably less likely to reject it because I feel some ownership over it.

And you are a minimalist. Big time. I'm a maximalist. Like, like, there's that great

my house to look like a Texas brothel. Like, I have 7,000 product. I mean, that not products, fabrics and textures. I have, like, a lion couch. Less, more. I'm looking for elegance simplicity.

“Yeah, and I'm looking for, who lives here? And I bet they change smoke. That's what I'm”

looking for. People walking my house. Like, that's what I'm looking for. So, you and my grandma would have gotten along so well. I wish she was here, so I could have a cigarette with her and just talk about, I mean, you would be like this. I love that. So, I think what happens. So, I will see a conflict break out, like this on a team. And I will go way back into the process, which I would have said, if you're co-building a business,

you're not communicating enough. You're not saying, let me bring in. And I'm going to give you an example of what happened for those of you all listening. I thought, like, when I think of curiosity shop, I think of Eal, I think of Dickens, I think of a curious, you know, you were very clear about no taxidermy. But I really think about, hey, what's, you know,

“I grew up in a dear blind basically. So, it's not, it's, you know, I think about, like,”

weird shit everywhere, shelves full of interesting things. Your agent Richard wrote about it beautifully when we were conceptualizing a name, like this place where you get lost in the

weirdness and the, on the wonder of a million things. So, we sent you a graphic that had,

well, that robot to represent, you know, AI, we had a viewfinder, it on an old 1970s viewfinder, if you're a kid and grew up with one of those, it had all these things on it. And you're like, and what's all, you know, I basically, you know, what's all the pawn store bullshit on here? It looks like a show about, like, antique. And, right, and maybe we should have a, this or that. And, and so for me, I was like, whoa, we picked those things very specifically. The robot represents AI.

The viewfinder perspective taking. The, you know, the, and so we had really thought about them.

“So, where, where we were off and where I think we're in danger is, and I'm going to introduce a new concept.”

One of the hardest things about strong ground when I was writing it was this idea of what, how do we future ready leaders? And what is the, what is the collection of mine sets and skill sets that we need to be ready? And one of the things that I've seen up close and personal with everybody in senior leader. I mean, every single senior leader with the exception of engineers is a real lack of systems thinking. Yeah. Right. A real lack of systems thinking. And so,

one of the things that systems theory has taught me the most. And it's a very integral part weirdly of social work. Social workers, especially MSW is masters and social get there and they're like, okay, how do I help people? How do I community organizer become a clinician or whatever they're

going to do in the big scale of what is social work? And their first classes like systems there,

you know, like, what the hell? Because we think of communities systems. We think of families systems, you know, in systems theory, there's this, especially Dana Meadows work and I'm a huge fan of her systems work. There's a big triangle at the top. You is like the iceberg that you see. Underneath the iceberg is a bunch of stuff. If you see a problem and you intervene at the problem the iceberg level, there's no leverage. You're going to fix a problem. You're going to see it again

in two weeks, maybe. Yeah. As you go down under the water, you go through what are the systems that are not working, what are the behaviors that are not working. And at the bottom, you have mental models. You and I work off different mental models. Very different mental models. Right. So, that graphic design was an iceberg issue. But underneath it, we're mental models. Self-expectations. Self-expectations. What's the, what's your mental model

about what a graphic should do? Yes. That's going to be our logo. It's going to be that it's

ultimately going to be like this with our pictures in it. You taught me about, you look at things like,

is it going to explain to what people are, is it going to mean the meaning for me with like the shop and all that stuff. I was trying to create a place of warmth and belonging and comfort where people could come in from the outside and be like so much vitriol, so much bullshit. This is a place where we can talk and disagree. And this is why we complement each other well because we want both meaning and feeling. But would you agree that mental model discussions are rare? Rare and vital

because, you know, I actually, like Paul just went off as you were talking about, system theory

reaction when we start talking about collaboration processes and getting on the same page,

I actually have this when we talk about return to office and remote work, too, which we should definitely get to in a future podcast is my favorite concept from from systems theory is the idea of equity finality, which is a mouthful, but you know it. It's the basic idea that in any complex system there are multiple paths to the same it. Yes. And what I often hear from you is some version

“of, well, in order to build a successful business, you have to. And I just reject the premise”

of any sentence that starts that way. Like no, there are many ways to build a successful business. You've got one that works for you. There may be others you haven't tested. I want to ABCD

eat test those. I've got a few that have worked for me that I want to have you try out, right?

And I think it's actually not the process. It's me overreacting to what feels like excessive certainty or narrowness around this is the way, which is actually a threat to successful systems. And I don't think you mean it that way. No, but I think you're trying to do your experience. I mean it that way. Oh, you do. I do mean it that way. I mean it that way. Message received and rejected. Yeah, no. I actually think I mean it that way.

“That's so interesting. And I think it's something I need to change.”

But again, it's deeply personal, which is if I'm not doing it the way that's a lot of caregiving and time for me, I'm not being a leader that I want to be. And I would, I guess the question I would ask on that is, are you, is this about being the leader you want to be, or is it about being the leader that the show and the team need? Two different questions. And I need to learn more. Same for sure. Same for sure. But I think the equality of anything that is a big, that

that is a big part of functioning systems. And so what we need to then, I actually think naming that

expectation, right? I'm always going to assume, I will always assume that things are equal final.

And so if you're attached to a process, I'm going to find it more persuasive if you explain to me, here's what else I tried and didn't work. Or here's, you know, here's the logic. I have a really hard time accepting, it's the parenting point you made earlier. It almost feels like a because I said so. That's so interesting. And you know where I default to that. Where I wrap up in a couple of minutes, but I will just, this is, this is a new thing we should

write down as another podcast episode idea. I thought, I got a lot of mentoring from Bob Iger's work on straddling the line between being thoughtful and decisive. And I've always gotten a lot of praise from being very decisive. Right. My coach recently told me in the last couple of months that she, you know, is that, you know, can I invite you to think about, you know, fuck. This is my response to the invitation to think about. Can I invite you to think about

“how your decisiveness may be over decisiveness to deal with anxiety. So I think when I am”

in the yes chef mode, which I know is not good leadership, unless you're in a kitchen, which I've worked in for a long time waiting tables. But like, I, there's a time in a place for it, right? I think I can get overly decisive. Yes. And when I am anxious or in time scarcity. And I think we built this. We scrambled. We scrambled. Yep. And got scrappy. Yep. And I can, and I was anxious, because I'm also, you know, I got a lot of stuff going on. My oldest is getting married, which is

so exciting. And so I think I get overly decisive. So that's a strength overused for you or misused. It's a strength overused. And I didn't see the anxiety part of it, but it makes so much sense. And my mistake was failing to recognize what was causing it. And instead just pushing back on the decisiveness. I don't know that that's your responsibility to understand it, because I, I actually, I'm trying to figure out how that would play out for the folks listening in a team. I think

I really want to put out an idea that for our next podcast, we talk about the idea of above and under the line. I think we should. I think that's really helpful. And I think, tell me. Well, I'm just, I think, okay. So in a team, ideally, what I would advise someone else to do. And here we're drinking our own champagne, but it feels more like eating our own dog food.

So what I would advise somebody to do in this situation is what I should have done is I should have

gone to you and said, hey, Renee, like I know you to be extremely thoughtful and nuanced and complex in the way that you think things through. And here, you seem like really kind of locked into one direction. Help me understand what's behind that. The lean end got me worried because I was like, but here you're being a complete asshole. So the lean end got me worried. So let me try it again. Let me take two. Okay. Hey, I'm, I'm really surprised to see you locked in to one direction.

“That's not how you normally are. Not working. No. I think all you would have had to say is”

if I would have said what would happen on the text was, yes, we need to invest a much time upfront with our teams. And you said, maybe the research is okay. So let me, so if we want to get into it. So I said, I think we need to spend some time upfront and really get aligned with our teams. You said, maybe the research is torn on this. Maybe a new podcast episode question mark. And I think what would have probably been helpful for me is I have a different experience. Are you

open to trying what different in that like curiosity? Yes, ironically. Yes, that would have been helpful. Yeah, curiosity about I have a different experience. Yes, but would you be open to exploring with me? Yeah, I can do that. That's a, that's a much better way to frame it. Yeah, maybe that for me. It's an invitation. It's an invitation. Yeah. When it brings a little bit of playfulness too, because you love learning. I do know another one of your strengths. I do love learning and

where I get to get defensive with you sometimes is because I am so embedded on teams and do this work when your response is, I'm not sure the data don't say that. I'm like fuck you do. Like that's

exactly that's like that's us replaying our 2016 debate. Yeah, you're like here's what I have seen and

“lived. I'm like here's the meta analysis and you have to randomize controlled experiments.”

And the the mostly interesting learning happens in the tension between the two. Now, I think the other thing that I was really struck by here, which which we can work through as a specific example of this is I think one of the things I learned from you is you said, I need to spend more time with my teams so that they feel valued and don't feel dismissed. Yeah. And I looked at that and I thought, oh, that's one way to do that. But one of the ways I make people feel valued is I respect their

time and I don't waste it by dragging them into meetings. And I will instead bend over backward to sing their praises and make it really clear to people why I'm excited to be working with them and the unique value they're bringing to the table. Oh, we're actually there's like there's a common value here. Here's a common value. And so we just have really different approaches to that and we need to figure out which ones are rather than what? Yeah. And I think I was really I was really

locked into this is new. We have six or seven people on it. We don't have any systemic communication tool in place. And we do not have a linemen across six or seven people about what impact how we're defining done, how we're defining excellent what impact is and we have no shared goals. So you're in threat rigidity mode. Oh, Jesus Christ. I don't know whether it sounds like shit, but what I don't know what it means. No, there's a there's a there's a classic

very start at all paper on threat rigidity, which is you know under threat people tend to do the opposite of what a pre-mortem does and lock into the familiar and kind of proven way. Absolutely. I was not there. Oh. Yeah. I I I I strike that from the record your honor. Yes, that's good. Struck, but not forgotten. No. I was not in threat rigidity mode. I was in we have on my side for people excited running in four different directions. Oh.

We have really big miss balls that we're upsetting to you. Yes. And upsetting to me. Yeah. That really almost jacked with our schedules to the point where this was not going to be happening. Yeah. And we need to sit down and best time upfront to getting aligned and putting communication systems. So I was not in threat rigidity. I was in call it cattle herding mode. No. No. It's much more based in I think solid leadership principles

that we were in the beginning of forming a new team and building alignment and clarity of mission and purpose. That's what I would say I was in. That makes sense. And that's going to require

“a time commitment. Yes. We need to do that. Yeah. That's what I think I was in.”

Well, we're we're about to do that. We're we're leaving this podcast and going into that

first week before we wrap. Yeah. You have some closing questions. Oh, yeah. That was kind of

we did this because um because I'm curious about you actually. So what are you listening to right

I listened to a science versus episode on narcissism where they got the they got somebody

who was diagnosed with the clinical narcissistic personality disorder to talk about his experience of discovering that and then trying to overcome it. It was riveting. Okay. We'll put in the show

“notes because I want to listen. What are you watching? Anything you binge lately or watched?”

Family tradition survivor currently sees in 50. Rooting for oh, how do I do this without spoilers? Oh, you shouldn't. At the beginning of the season, I can say that. Yes. I started out with high hopes for Camilla and for Genevieve and for Chris ship. What do you like about survivor survivors? I mean it's a giant psychology experiment in trust and collaboration and deception and rivalry and competition and it's just

watching people build relationships while also trying to strategize. It's a microcosm of what we do every day. Okay. I just can't. I can't do survivor but my kids are obsessed. What are you reading? I just finished reading Dana Suskins book Human Raist and about how to prepare kids and also protect them in the age of AI phenomenal. Really? We're highly recommend. Tell me a takeaway. I think it comes out in July so I probably need her permission to do that.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. What about you? What are you? Let me go back. What are you reading right now? I am reading a new book in the Shetland series. What's that? I read a lot of British mysteries folks. You get ready. I mean this is like Shetland Islands. Yeah, so I'm reading a Shetland book right now. It's probably one of my favorite TV series on television. I think you have to watch it on like a corner of Brutbox or something. One of the British import television.

I watch a lot of British television. I was I'm watching oh my god. I watched he did rivalry just

finish it for this third time. Wow. You're all in. I'm all in. I haven't seen it. Oh god. I love it so much.

Sounds like it's made for Bridgerton fans. No. I was just going to say I finished Bridgerton

“and I finished she'd rivalry so my life is open now for watching both for great season four.”

And then he'd rivalry was good. I was talking to a Stereporal last night about her commentary on why the obsession with he'd rivalry. And I think it not only is it a beautiful love story, but she said every stressful, conflict point in that show was met with very beautiful, reparative and corrective behavior. There you go. So like something hard would happen. And you like you have this feeling of like for boating like oh Shetland is not going to go.

And then the person shows up and is so wonderful. And it was just I don't know it was healing in some way to me so I love it. And then what was the last one? Listen. What are you listening to? I have been. I'm going to say we're already. I definitely listen to a shit ton of the rest is politics UK version with Rory and Alistair. I've so many bones. We should maybe do like a force him and just like fight it out. Like some kind of maybe doubles tennis. Take it out on the court.

I've been listening to a lot of that. I think it's really helpful to have a non-US political opinion that's more centered on the world. So I think that's interesting. And then Rosalia that just what a what a what a woman. And then also listening to a lot of Tom's vansant,

which I always go back to. We have so little overlap. We have very little. We're different people.

We're you but I'm curious about you. Same. Okay. See you next time. Looking forward to it. The Curiosity Shop is produced by Bernabey on Education and Research Group and granted productions. You can subscribe to the Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app. Repart of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com. Support for the show comes from Odo. Running a business is hard enough. So why make it harder?

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