Kyle Carpenter on Courage, Survival, and What Comes After

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Start your free trial at Shopify.com/AU. Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast.

“Designed to help bring those four key stoic virtues”

courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom into the real world. Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of The Daily Stoic Podcast. Because I'll give a talk in Austin. Guess this was back in September, maybe October. And I had a crazy day in Austin, and I've come straight from the podcast studio,

and I told this story. Music is on. Do we have a lot on our business?

But if you have a flash, that's a moment when you do the incredible thing.

And he and I talked about something that I'm writing about in my next book. So then in John Hunter, Tom Hunter is flying a Korean in the early days in the Korean War.

“He's a wingman, a guy in Justin Brown, first black,”

they will pilot it. And Brown takes it a flash, it goes down, he is still in the Justin Reservoir. And in instance, I'm a circle in above sees that his friend isn't rebated, the plane can't be his up, but he's still in the plane, he's waving. And without the thought, he crashes his own plane next to it.

And the boat of pulling him from the wreckage. It's on the successful rise, hopelessly stuck in his last words to Hunter, or tell my wife, Azi, I love her. And when I have a chance to ship it, he has to rescue by a helicopter. He's not only leading himself up or not having success with the rest of him,

but the least he's going to be a corporation. The policy was relieved down in pilot, as I couldn't afford to lose two pilots from the one to crack.

These moments of incredible selflessness when one puts their own interests behind someone else.

Because that's obviously transcendent physical courage. Obviously, I couldn't interview Tom Hunter. She's no longer with us, as I said, I had interviewed Kyle Carpenter that day. And I was fascinated by this decision that Kyle had made in the split second. The decision most of us can't imagine.

And then I was even more interested in the journey that came after. So this is me talking to Kyle. You can follow him on Instagram @shixdigscars@shix just with a K, c-h-i-k-s-dig-scars. And your website copies of his memoir.

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Do you know the story of Tom Hutner? Do you know who that is? He won the Medal of Honor in Korea? I just spent the past two days with him. Or not not him, his son, his son. No way. Tom Hut, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, he is an exceptional individual, just like his father and um,

“was his son in the service too, or what does his son do?”

No, he was not, um, but uh, yeah, two very successful sons. And um, now he helps with Medal of Honor related endeavors and just helping us in our mission. But yeah, I just read this book about him. And I saw that the picture was taken by Tom Hutner Jr. And I was like, oh, so I didn't know that son existed.

But I'm fascinated by the story. It's in the book that I'm doing now. How crazy. Yeah, so for people though, no, he, he's a pilot in Korea, correct?

And he's a wingman to Jesse Brown, who's the first black pilot in the Navy.

And Brown takes a shot to his oil tank. Has to crash in this field in the chosen reservoir. And then as they're circling, he sees that he, he doesn't get out of the plant. Because you couldn't eject their too low. And there's the crazy thing.

So right, right before they took off the uh, skipper of the ship goes, if anyone goes down, he's like, all court martial, anyone who tries to rescue them.

“Because he's like, we can't afford to lose two planes and two pilots, right?”

He's like, wait for a helicopter. We will send a helicopter. I don't want anyone trying to rescue anyone. And then, uh, hunter sees his uh, friend go down and immediately disregards the orders. And crashes his plane in this snowy field in the chosen reservoir and attempts to rescue Brown

from the plane, who's like, hopelessly stuck in there and, and Brown's last words, or, you know, tell my wife I love her. I wanted to ask you about, because I'm fastening with this story like that decision to do the craziest thing that a person could do. You're one of the handful of people who might have some insight into that thought process.

What a small world. And how unbelievable that. This is the first topic. I saw many questions about this now. And I just spent two days at him.

Um, but, you know, obviously it was a split second decision out of love for his friend and fellow

service member. But as I've examined just, you know, from me personally, my journey in those five seconds on the roof. You know, I feel like just like a championship on the football field, or getting an A on a test, very few things can be executed in the moment that they are without planning or thought or preparation before.

Yeah. And so I feel like although the entire world only examines those five seconds on the roof, you know, I feel that, you know, one I was just as a recipient and all of my fellow recipients will say, we just happen to be in that moment in that time and place. And we had the opportunity to step up the way we did.

Right.

“I think that's the beautiful thing about the human spirit.”

Is that anyone can step up in a time of need no matter how, how smaller or how large of an act. But those moments on the roof were a culmination of the love and support throughout my life that I received from my parents. It was a culmination from, you know, I think a lot of people think, oh, Marine Corps combat oriented, you know, hardcore, what, whatever you think of when you think of Marines, get her bad.

Everyone thinks it's all about training. Yeah. And every day we're just throwing grenades around the place, fake grenades, and hey, who's going to jump on it. And like, bumble, recovery drill, how to football.

You're practicing this thing over, was there ever a moment where that was a thing you had to consider doing? We do training with grenades. And I think it's just a byproduct of being in uniform and training with grenades that that you think about things like that and just in general, going into combat.

Am I going to be able to step up the way that I need to. Am I going to, you know, step up instead of back down when the bullet start flying?

But it was never a tangible moment of training.

I guess that's what I'm curious about. Is it a conscious decision or is it something more like the training and the moment and the

So many people think it's training, but an amazing aspect of the Marine Corps,

especially through boot camp, is through the difficult moments of training. When you're worn down, when you've been out training and you're tired and you're hungry and you've been exposed to the elements for days on end. Your drill instructor is a very intentional part of boot camp that in between those moments, they'll sit you down and they teach you about the history of the Marine Corps.

Those that came before you, those stories of unfathomable courage. I mean, I remember sitting there boot camp during the crucible, our big final event before we received

“our Eagle Globe and anchor and I believe I speak for all of us when sitting there, I just thought,”

I mean, who could, who could do something like this? How can someone, and now I understand more not from my action, but just from being a Marine and having that time in service, but just unfathomable acts of courage. Those, those that from all branches, Marine Corps side, just those that at 17, 18 years old and World War II, when they knew that the chances of making it on to the beach, making it

to the beach, right? And then pass the beach and surviving what lay ahead, we're such a miniscule chance. And when those doors open, they charge forward anyway. Right. And I think a lot of people just in conversations I've had or just, you know, the love and support that I'm so humble to be given, sometimes it seems like, oh, Kyle, the first guy in history that jumped on a grenade. But you look back at every conflict and there are those that,

you know, grenade or not, not only went above and beyond, but gave that last full measure of devotion for each other or for a purpose greater than themselves or any individual.

“And so that's why I say, I was just happened to be on that roof and in those moments.”

But again, it was a culmination of so many different things in my life for my family, coaches on the athletic fields growing up. And I think ultimately, I'm just so thankful that I reacted the way I did. Now, granted, I wish I could have taken every bit of that grenade. But

at least I can live my life and not always wonder why I didn't or if I could have. Why do you

mean you wish you took every bit of it? Because the Marine that I was with my best friend, he was injured as well. So I wish I could have taken every bit of that blast. But you know, I still, I feel like gave my best effort. And so now I can live my life not wondering, but just being proud that I was able to step up as the Marine and the friend that I needed to be in that moment. But also going back to, you know, those moments in boot camp to have tried my best to uphold

the legacy and the path that the Marines that came before me laid with unfathomable amounts of courage and sacrifice. I feel like the tradition is a huge part of it because, you know, your

“average person doesn't feel like they're maybe capable of doing that. And I think a big part of”

the training is not like, hey, how many pull-ups can you do and how far can you run and how much can you live? Although, that's obviously all part of it. But it's in the process of putting you through that and accepting you into the tradition that you feel like suddenly you're capable of, or that you're an heir to this thing. Even though you're not actually related, you're all part of this lineage that goes back and includes every single one of those people. Perfectly said, yes.

In that moment, are you like, are you thinking, hey, this is my job, or are you thinking, this is my friend? Do you think anything at all? Like, in the book, it makes it sound like, you're kind of just a thing happened and then you woke up after and you're like, where's my face? Basically, so I'm just curious how much thinking is going on? Well, I should have thought, I'm not to kick this thing, right? Right back off the roof. But strangely,

and I appreciate you having my book and reading it. But strangely, I don't remember any of the moments leading up to the blast. Now, unofficially, which, you know, the Medal of Honor,

that was awarded to me, although it's, it never is and never will be an individual award or recognition.

It's not a thing they give lightly based on one person's opinion. Correct.

You need multiple opinions. You need forensic blast evidence. And so, you know, they talk to me in the very beginning. And I really had nothing helpful to contribute. But even if I did, I think it's important to note that if you are injured in whatever incident they are investigating, you can't be an eyewitness. Because if you have any sort of head trauma, obviously your facts might not be that accurate. Right. I safe to say I had some head trauma. But I don't, you know,

“unofficially, I would say the only thing that I remember before wasn't really anything cognitive.”

It was just, you know, knowing how you and your body feels. I remember almost as if I was in

empty show. I don't have any visual recollection. I just, I felt like I was on my knees and my body was falling forward. And then I felt like I got hit in the face really hard. But my actual kind of somewhat coherent thoughts followed the blast. And I remember being extremely confused. And my vision was as if I was looking at a TV with no connection, just white and gray static. My ears are re-extremely loud. Just as they are, this very moment that we're doing this podcast.

Oh, they just, they just remain ringing. Oh, yeah. Yeah, which is, you know, can be daunting at times. But just got to remain focused. And, you know, every day is driving on for the mission. But after I felt like I got hit really hard in the face, that was followed by extreme confusion and disorientation. So much so that that I was trying to just to get a grasp of where I was and what happened. And I've been in Afghanistan for over four

months now. And so my first thought was, okay, I'm pretty sure I was in Afghanistan.

“The last thing I can remember, I was on a roof. But what could have injured me this bad”

on a roof? And then I thought, maybe I got off of the roof went on a foot patrol because the vast majority of our injuries over there, at least for my unit at the time, was stepping on IEDs because we were so far out and rural territory behind enemy lines. We had to get

helicoptered in and we had no vehicles. So everyone thinks military now days. We always have

vehicles all around him. But very few roads to where we were and the roads that were there were more pedestrian walkways, paths for a livestock. So you don't have to go through the fields and damage crops. And they wouldn't support heavy armored vehicles. And before we got there, they had tried that. And the banks of the river would collapse and Marines were drowning from being trapped in these armored vehicles. So we only had the everywhere we went and, you know, traditional Marine style.

Part of the tradition also. Right. Yeah. Exactly. And so I thought maybe I went on a patrol

“stepped on an ID and just the roof is the last thing I can remember. And that thought process”

was interrupted by, of course, what I thought was my buddy's messing with me because Marines and service members are experts at messing with each other. It's kind of like our secondary job. Sure. And I thought, man, you know, whatever's happened, I can't believe in this banged up state that I'm in. That my buddies are pouring warm water all over me. And that fragmented piece allowed the other ones to kind of fall into place. And I realized like,

oh, man, whatever's happened. My buddies aren't messing with me. And that's not warm water. I'm profusely bleeding out. And so at that moment, you know, while getting just, I would say tired, but that would, that would be an understatement. It's probably the life leaving your body. Just just drained, draining to and from your core. Right. Just hard to describe. But at that moment, when I realized that, I knew that was it. I thought about my family. How devastated my mom was

going to be when that government car pulled into the driveway or those two Marines and uniform knocked on the front door to tell my family I would not be coming home alive. And lastly, I said a quick prayer for forgiveness for anything I had done wrong in my life. And I faded from consciousness in the world for what I thought was the last time. So you thought you're dying.

to get a little graphic here. I remember when I first woke up, I was trying to,

I was trying to feel my mouth or my jaw with my tongue, but nothing was there. And so, but these final moments, you know, I was kind of, because I couldn't feel my face. I really

“didn't have that deepest sense of what was going on. But I remember kind of crying a little bit”

in my head, not because it wasn't why I'm out here. You know, why did I even do this? Why am I in this position? It was more just, you know, I just turned 21 over there. I'm a birthday crawling through a field getting shot at thinking, man, I hope one day I can get my first cold when you go beer, you know, yeah, but I just turned 21 and it was more just the heaviness of the moment. The heaviness of the moment and maybe in some sort of subtle way, just knowing that,

you know, who this is it? And I, I guess I don't get to experience the rest of my life, sure. Now, in hindsight, I still wouldn't change anything because I truly felt in my heart, and I knew and I saw every day that we were there, just helping a fellow struggling human being.

“But, you know, with that said, the world faded away. I thought that was it,”

and to my very unexpected and pleasant surprise, I woke up about five weeks later. And instead of a hot dusty rooftop, it was a strange hospital room with Christmas stockings hanging on the wall beside my bed, and about three or four inches of snow outside on my window pain. And that moment

of waking up, my first thought was completely opposite of the last one that I had, and I thought,

"No way, I can not believe I survived that." And, but that moment, you know, although I had three years left of a recovery, 40 to 50 plus surgeries, that moment really began this journey of self-discovery purpose and perspective that I've been on. It's crazy to say, but, you know, about 15 years now. What's crazy to me is like, you know, you read the Medal of Honor citations, it's for Huttner, for you, or for anyone, there's like the split second decision, right, to go

on the grenade, to crash the plane, to do the thing, and that's what we call courage, right, like that moment. But, I mean, you're talking about, like, your ears are still ringing from

“the event 15 years later, like that's a day-to-day thing that you have to deal with. I think about”

he crashes the plane, then he basically wakes up, and he's like, "Oh, he should have survived

the landing." It might not work, right, and he, you know, so he kind of wakes up, and then he's like, "Well, shit, now I'm down here." And now that's actually the horse around it by a hundred plus thousand. Totally, yeah, he's, he's that's the sprint across this field, all he has the service revolver, even if he had just crashed in Alaska, it would have been bad. Like, he's exposed to the elements, like he could have frozen it. And so now the hard part, like now the actually courageous,

difficult thing comes now, like the, what's he going to do? And he, obviously, he's not thought through, was an eye crash, an helicopter pilot, like he's not thinking about the, I think why it's courage is that it's this leap into the dark. You don't know how it's going to work out, or that it's going to work out. In your case, you're going on the grid. You don't know whether it's going to get there in time or not. You don't know whether you're going to survive or not. And then you're

certainly not able to go like, and then three years in the hospital, and then learning to do this again and feeling this again. So we almost overemphasize, which is the most impressive part of the experience. Like, what's the real ordeal? Is it the raising your hand? Is it, you know, that part, or is it all the stuff that comes after this? We don't think of courage as like endurance, but it's that, too. That was, that was very well said, Ryan, and I could not agree more.

And I appreciate you recognizing that because I'm most proud of what I've done after the blast and whether that's the battle through recovery or, you know, all the way to the marathons are just continuing to push myself into that unknown, which I'm not bragging on myself

to live is an act of courage, you know, just the, that's completely. The keeping going, like,

again, we think of the courage as these sort of punctuated moments and need a battle or the firefighter that runs into a burning building or whatever. And that's obviously one part of it, but then the other part is the waking up to next day and the day after and the day after when you're dealing with the consequences of those couple of seconds that you did the thing. Yeah, absolutely. And when I experience those final moments and to wake up to this unexpected

bonus round that I'm living now, of course, there are difficult days. There are long, you know, dark, scary and painful nights through the hospital. And even out of the hospital,

“life is hard. It's just a hard earned journey. But to have experienced those final moments”

and to wake up, I can't help but to not try to make the most of it. Yeah. And I think that's where I was, I was wanting to get out. But I talked to one of the Vietnam POWs and he was saying, you know, any morning you wake up in the locks on the inside of the door. That's a good day. Wow. You know, because they spent seven years with the lock on the wrong side of the door, right? They can't get out. And I think that's you appreciate that. It makes sense. But I do wonder

like how how transferable and sustainable is that perspective, right? Like so you have this moment of courage to do this thing. Like one thing you could take from that is like anything that's not getting blown up by a grenade is better than this, right? Or anything is better than not getting blown up by a grenade. But I imagine you're still like what the fuck is this traffic? Like how quickly it does just the regular frustrations of life kicking or do you find you're able to maintain that

perspective? No, that's a great point. And yeah, of course, you know, little things in life that shouldn't, you know, still kind of get to you sometimes. But I think for anyone grenade aside,

“I think it's extremely, you know, important to always work on and be able to refocus on that”

perspective. Yeah. The things that that really matter. Yeah. And, you know, just from the, the socialism side of things to understand what's in your control and out of your control. Yeah. That's been extremely helpful for me because throughout my recovery, you know, I went from being in the best shape of my life, carrying a machine gun in Afghanistan,

you know, 18 minute three miles and just always having a plan as a Marine, whether that is

what today holds or what this specific patrol holds. You know, we knew what routes we were taking. We knew our, our points that that we needed to hit and what village we were going to and what the mission was. But when I woke up, it was completely opposite. Yeah. You know, at first, I didn't know if I could make it to that next breath. And I remember just laying there on my side and, you know, the be all the beeping machines are so annoying. Yeah.

Yeah. It's, uh, it gets kind of, you know, starts to wear on you almost. And, you know, in the beginning when my pain spike, or I was having difficulty with whatever it was, the machines will start going off and then you got to get yourself back under control and you got to calm your heart

rate. And so at first, I didn't know if I could make it to that next breath or not, which a machine

was helping me at first. But when I got off that, didn't know if the 40 or 50 surgeries every single one, you know, going into it, you do the pre-op. You're there for a year. You do the pre-op. You do the surgery. Some of them were nerve transplants or transfers at which take two to four months

“to make that connection regenerate. So you have to stay persistent. You have to keep working”

at it. Even though nothing is happening, you have to just hope and trust that your heart work in your focus and dedication will eventually allow that nerve to reconnect. But, you know, then it was, I didn't know if the next surgery would take. And another aspect is, when something catastrophic happens or you face extreme adversity, you know, a tough lesson is that the world keeps spinning. Yeah. Understandably so, obviously. You know, people care a lot after it happens

of my friends who didn't go into the military were living their best life in college. And all of my

“buddies who thankfully did not get injured were still in Afghanistan together operating. But my life”

was a complete, you know, unknown, I guess. Yeah. I'm 21, 22 girls are not great at patients and being told what to do. You know, and you're just like, on top of all that, you're just like, yeah, you want to go back to your life and you can't. Yep. And so, I guess as time went on, you know, I had to, I had to grapple with that. Yeah. And, you know, although I realized that you don't have to have a perfect plan. You just have to, you know, be willing to say,

you know, my, I guess, mantra kind of became just, you know, keep working hard, try to be a good person. Do the best you can and help others around you. And it's got to to lead you somewhere good. It's got to lead you to that light at the end of the tunnel.

“So I think that's right. Because, look, I wrote this book, The Opschools Away. And I think people,”

it's been, it's meant something to people. And I think, you know, generally the idea is true that there's an opportunity and everything. But it can feel a very flip into someone who, you know, just found out they have cancer or somebody who just got blown up by a grenade. Like, you actually have this beautiful note in the acknowledgements that really hit me, which I think is, is very well said. You said, the lessons of life, silver linings in perspective that I share in

this book did not come easily or quickly. At times, silver linings only become apparent because I was forced to search through the darkness. And perspectives only became clear after years of deep thought and personal growth. These lessons originated from pain and suffering, but sometimes the most difficult struggles teach us the most beautiful lessons. Like, I imagine, in many ways, the recovery in the hospital was the most challenging part personally, emotionally, physically,

because it not just goes on and on, but you have time to think about it and feel sorry for yourself and be angry and hope and despair. Like, now all of a sudden, the real emotions and the struggle and the having to figure out what this means and what you're going to do about it, that's like your problem in a way that it's not in five seconds on a roof in Afghanistan. Yeah, absolutely. The mental side of it, emotional side of it, but also how am I going to do

buttons now, which is maybe I went from the television or my enemy to buttons being my biggest enemy now, but so the physical side of it as well, but you know, like so many things in life, there is two sides to that story. There was the daunting, the unknown, the difficult side of it, but there was the side that, although it's kind of heavy to be told, hey, you have three more years left here for us to kind of put Humpty Dumpty back together again, but that also gave me time

to think about all of that, right? To think about that perspective, which if I had to summarize my journey in one word, it would be that because perspective correct, because I could look at,

you know, it's always, the foundationally it's, well, I'm here, yeah, when I thought that I wasn't

going to be, it shouldn't be correct, but then it gets to, and some of this came from those I recovered with, yeah, quadruple amputees, triple amputees with their newborn sitting on what's left to their legs, you know, zoom it off to therapy every day with a smile on their face, and so you know, it gave me the time to think, hey, my arms might be super banged up, but I still have them. Yeah, most of my body might be shredded to pieces, but I still have two good legs that can get

“me up and inch me forward. And it's, it's not about the limbs, I think just what I'm,”

what I'm saying is it's about the mindset and looking at what you have compared to what you don't have, right? And I think that comparison, it can do, do wonders for you and take you amazing places, or that comparison can become the thief of joy. Yeah. And it can turn you into a perpetually pessimistic person, and also you know, I saw on the hospital, and before I say this,

I want to note that I think struggle, adversity, and most things in life should never be

and less than others. Yeah. And that really stuck with me. But with that said, and again, not comparing, but I saw that there were those in the hospital with me, because 2010 was a very

“violent year in Afghanistan, most of the hospital rooms. I think except for mine, because I was”

one of the ones in the worst shape. I needed a one-to-one. I needed kind of some other stuff going on in my room, a lot of machines, but every single room had two beds and two patients in it. And there was even a time where the least injured were out in the hallways. And so a lot of casualties were there, and a lot of wounded worries were covering. But I saw that there were some that had, and all struggles is relative, but there were some that had

much more minor injuries, but they just never let the hospital. Right. And I saw that

their mindset and not their injuries were holding them back. Yeah. And so, although, of course,

“I had terrible days and painful days and days where, you know, I wondered if I was going to be”

able to keep pushing forward. Although, I kind of went away. I didn't feel like I had a choice, because there were so many people pouring their love in their hearts and everything they had into getting me better. But, you know, in life you can learn from people good and bad. You can take good and bad examples and lessons from people. And seeing that, just, I guess kind of planted a seed that, hey, one thing I have, you know, I might not have functioning limbs. I might have lost my eye,

most of my teeth are blown out. But one thing I have is my mindset, is my attitude, and is my care for myself, and wanting to get better for myself, and for those around me. And I'm thankful

through all the medication and injuries that I kind of had that insight, because it never left me.

And do you know who Epictetus was? The Stoke Flosser? Absolutely. So, you know, Epictetus is tortured by his, he's a slave. So he's, but he has this cruel master in the torturism. He breaks his leg at one point. And so he has this, he's crippled the rest of his life, which is that I guess the term they would use then. So, so he's coming at this not from like some 10-year academic perch, but like a dude who really suffered and went through stuff. And his thing was that we,

every situation has two handles. You know, we get to decide what we're going to try to pick it up by. And yeah, you can, you can grab the handle that says, hey, I'm alive. This is good, or you can grab the handle of like, why am I alive? This is horrible. And that handles kind of everything. The lens through which we decide to interpret the events or the position we're in is kind of the first step, because if, if you get that one wrong, all the other steps are really hard. I feel like

if you're like, I was single doubt. This is horrible. This is insurmountable. You know, you can tell yourself a story that becomes a self-fulfilling process. Now, just telling yourself, it's wonderful

and never going to suffer again and it's all going to grade. And that's the thing that those

Vietnam prisoners talked about. Like, the story you're telling yourself is, I'm going to be home by Christmas. This is going to be over really soon. That's also a bad handle, because life doesn't

“really care that that's what you think. But if you, if you, so it's, it's the key to sort of picking”

something that's both hopeful, but also got a kind of a grit and a determination to it that's like, as you said, like, I just know I'm not quitting, because as long as these people are helping me, I'm not going to give up. That's, that's not like, oh, you know, if you get in the car accident and the doctors say you're never going to walk again, just because you go, I'm going to walk again, sometimes that works, but not always. That's not magically going to give you your legs back.

Yeah, there needs to be accepting of reality in there as well. But I think there is tremendous power, and I would say that's even an understatement to embracing the struggle.