Trey Tucker On Why Young Men Are Being Forgotten

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You did this. Here we go. You did the stitch re-reacting to this man trying to toughen his son up by kicking him in the ribs. And I'm like this son of a bitch is genius. I thought you were going to get torched in like everybody's like buck buck buck buck buck buck.

“I can relate to that because when I watched it, I said Sean, are you raising a strong young man?”

Like I'm not going to kick mine in the rib cage. Walk me through the journey of the buck. So many young guys have been coming to see me and they have no guides. Guys in their 20s have been tossed aside. That pisses me off and so I thought well if they want to book, I'm going to write something for a group that has been forgotten.

Or worse, like they've been told we don't really need you. Look what's going on in the world right now. All the shootings, all everything and a lot of them points to like not having a present father figure. This is a big deal. It's heartbreaking because most of the comments that come from women.

They're literally asking please help. How do I raise my son on my own? And then how do I get him around father figures? What up everybody, we are back with another episode of the Determined Society before I introduce today's guest. I want to remind you, yes, once again, I need you to go to the Determined Society.com.

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amazing episodes like our guests today.

My boy, Tray Tucker, listen, this guy I ran into him on Instagram. He was doing these podcast ratings and he'd flash the big shows across the screen. And he'd rate them and tell them why he gave him that rating. And I just instantly love this man because that's a brave thing to do. But what I learned about him is that his mind worked differently than everybody else's.

He rated shows based on the amount of value that he was getting or the value that was presented to the audience. And not what the internet wanted him to say. So I truly appreciated him. But I got, again, with me, my boy Tray and in listen, he is an amazing dude. He is a therapist and just an awesome guy.

Even though he went to the University of Florida, I'm not going to hold it against him. But you know, you guys are going to love this conversation today. And he recently came out with a book, tough enough. And I do have it in my hands. I'm super blessed to have it.

It's about honing your habits, cultivate purpose and forge genuine strength.

“And that, you know, the genuine strength thing is it's something that I think is really needed today.”

But man, let's get into it. Welcome to the show, dude. Thank you, brother. Good to be here. Come on, man.

You drove all the way from Nashville. Just to see little all me. Man. I feel a little you. I tell you what, when when guests come from wherever they're at to actually sit down with me.

It just, it makes me feel so good because I remember it's time when they wouldn't. Yeah, I bet. You know, so thank you for being here, dude. I thank you for having me. But you're right.

The effort to make face to face interaction, whether it's for a show or any sort of relationship. But that resonates with people because face to face is so rare anymore. Yeah, dude. It is, man. It's covered street all that up.

It sure did. But it it helped out in a lot of ways, right? It, it got people to be home and corporations learned that their employees can make money and being home. Yeah. I got this nice little hybrid work situation and a lot of people have down.

So it works. But, um, listen, man, for the audience that doesn't know about you. Why don't you walk them through a brief 50,000 foot level of your background. What you're doing and where you're going. Yeah.

So I am a therapist now, but I wasn't always.

I started out in the corporate world and learned a ton.

But every day it just felt empty. Just felt like I was pursuing something that didn't really have meaning fulfillment to it. And so I jumped into education, start teaching and coaching. And then as I start looking back and thinking, okay, these students are bringing me stuff that I don't really know how to help them with, you know, deeper life questions.

Looking back even through a middle school on, I always love to listen more than talk.

And I always loved figuring out like what makes somebody tick. Like why did that guy get so successful? And then like, for example, there's a new Elvis movie. I was always fascinated with Elvis because he was like one of those guys. Like he made it to the apex and then he tore it all down.

Like what's that? How did that happen? So I just always got fascinated by reading biographies and watching documentaries. Just figuring out why people did what they did. And so like a dummy, it finally hit me like, I need to be at their posts.

I go back, mid career, get the counseling masters. And ever since I have no problems in my own because like I can fix them all just like that. I wish it worked like that, right? Exactly. The little secret is every therapist really goes into that field to fix themselves.

And then we can help other people.

“But that's that's what I do now. And like thankfully they're there.”

I have a little niche in the therapy world. It's like there are there are not a ton of male therapists. And then there aren't a ton of male therapists who just kind of talk normal. Like I hate lingo like therapy speak. I just much rather talk.

I mean, you know, we're both played baseball. So I'd rather talk like I'm talking to a baseball player in a therapy session. And I think that helps me reach guys that and women too that otherwise would have no interest in psychology. Such a good point, dude, because what I'm being coached by somebody or I'm talking to a friend or a therapist.

You know, therapy is a tricky thing for me because you know, I always jump to talk therapy doesn't work for me.

And it really doesn't the way it's been done. Yeah. You know, tell me about that. Yeah. Well, you feel that way.

Like look my fucker. I don't know why I felt that way because if I did, I wouldn't be feeling this way. You know, but I need you to talk to me normal. Like how do I fix this? Like just shoot me between the eyes and tell me what my problem is. And you know, just one of those things, man, that, that I truly respect and then, you know, leaving the corporate world and doing something scary like this, that's a big move.

“What, what corporate business were you in and what did you do before this?”

So this is going to age everybody that is probably listening, but there was an old portrait studio company called Olon Mills. I know Olon Mills. Yes, okay. Let's go. Yes. So yeah, bro. So like I was there only new hire in five years.

Okay. This is when digital was taken over and they wanted adapting well. And so all the sudden I show up and everybody's looking at me like, what are we growing again? Why the hell are we new? And it was there was no match because I was a 22 year old fresh out of college.

And the target market for Olon Mills is young moms with kids. So how am I going to create marketing materials for them? I don't know why it happened, but I'm glad it did because. Wow. Now I have the perspective of even a bad day in my current world.

It's still better than any good day in that world. So and the people were great. It's just like I say, the job wasn't fulfilling. So anytime I feel like I'm complaining, I'm like, nah, like let me put myself back in those days because now I'm good.

It's so funny because you're talking to your about your story of why you left because you didn't feel fulfilled. You felt empty. Right.

“I have the same story and that's how this started.”

Right. It started in me feeling so empty and depressed. What am I actually doing right now? Like, okay, great.

I have this amazing sales career.

And I'm helping. It was I was in medical sales and I was also in payroll sales. But it's like, I'm helping people. I'm helping business owners or I'm helping patients. You know, the end user, you know, recover, you know,

with less pain and quicker, you know, by different introoperative therapies. Like, but it was, it was a dead end for me, man. And I was, it was getting so angry and so bored. Yep. And this thing came up and it was just like,

okay, this is what I want to do. You probably get to see the direct impacts for what you're doing now. Compared to then, there were three people in between the impact. Yeah, you know what, man, like, the impact is funny with this business, right? Because, you know, for a long time, the people closest to you are silent.

Hmm. Because like, what are you doing dumbass? Hmm. You're doing a podcast. Okay.

Until it works, right? And then they start coming around and listening to it. It's actually pretty good. You know, but, but for me, the direct impact comes few and far between. And, you know, what I'm going to say to the audience right now,

and to you, I want them to take advantage of it. Because when someone goes and leaves me a written review on Apple that I don't know,

I got one from this lady.

It said, "Biz lady." And I don't know who it is. So if you're listening, you obviously listen to the show. Thank you. Your review made my day.

Hmm. And it was so sweet. And it was just like, Sean has a way of talking to his guests and relating. And for me, I'm like, "Ham, she sees me."

Yeah. She sees what I'm doing here. And that's the value we're trying to give. So those moments right there, those direct impacts or the DMs. Sure.

You know, hey, I'm battling brain cancer right now. I've listened to your show. I mean, wow.

Like, that for me is why I do it.

There's no higher honor. No, there's not. It's incredible, dude. I mean, it's just, you know, what about you, man? Like, when you're able to help somebody get through some tough shit.

Like, how does that make you feel? Oh, I mean, it's not even work. I can come on. One hand, the number of days and the last 10 years as a therapist where I felt like, "All right, this is actual work.

I just get to do what I'm wired to do." And yeah, I like, I get up in the morning. I don't need a snooze button. It's not because I'm so disciplined. It's just like, I'm looking forward to doing this.

Yeah. And so, yeah, walking with somebody face-to-face, one-on-one. There's nothing more fulfilling.

And I've done like speeches and all the things that seem like they're going to

be like the top of the chain, but there's just nothing better than sitting with somebody, especially when they have that aha moment. And then you see the next few days and weeks where their life turns around. I mean, you see someone's lights come on right in front of you. It's like, there it is.

Like, that is the moment, you know? And dude, to your point, man, you've been on a ton of different press. NPR, some big TV, you've been on stages. And that wasn't even a prerequisite for you coming onto the show. I didn't know it until recent.

“I'm like, oh, damn, this is really, really cool, right?”

Like, for me, I wanted you on the show because I've lived with you. Right? And I loved your approach. And dude, I love your freaking content, dude. It is so damn good.

And that must come from your marketing background. But you've built a really good platform that I know speaks to men most importantly. And can't speak to women, too. But, you know, you wrote this book and tough enough. And you did this.

You put this. Here we go. Oh, my God, dude. I'm trying to find words. But you did the stitch, I guess, or something like that,

where you're reacting to this man trying to toughen his son up by kicking him in the ribs. And when I watch it, I'm like, I can't comment on this one yet. I got a, I got a, remove myself and see what is trying to be said here.

But the overall message was like, you know, not enough fathers are raising strong young men. And I think that's true. Like, I'm not going to kick mine in the rib cage. But I understand this.

But dude, like, I saw it. And I'm like, this son of a bitch is genius. Because I thought you were going to get torched in like everybody's like, whatever the, the comment was for the book. I can't remember.

It was like book book book book book. I'm like, there's like 400 people here that just asked for his book. And so it was just, let's walk through that, man.

“And I'm like, how scary was that put in that out by the way?”

You know, it wasn't scary because I've seen that scenario. Not that video, but I've seen other versions of that in real life. So often that I know number one, I'm going to get disagreed with. And I'm okay with that because I'm not trying to be sensationalistic. Are they like that?

Yep. I truly see that there is a father or father figure crisis door and on in the country. And then I see how many young guys are struggling and craving that. Most of them don't even know they're craving it. So I just knew, all right, this is a visual representation of what we're missing in the country.

And so I wasn't nervous at all. I was excited just because I knew nobody, nobody. Very few people talk about this stuff. And so I at least wanted to kind of throw that out there just to get something stirred up. Because like you said, I knew there was a hunger.

Like there's a, there was a story of a buddy of mine. He's in meetings all day in his office walks out under the street. And all of a sudden, smells from food trucks hit him. And that moment, he had been so busy until then. He smells that foods that he realized.

I'm so hungry. But he didn't know he was hungry until he got the hint of it. And that's the kind of stuff that was showing in that video where, oh, we need this. And we didn't know we needed it. No, I can relate to that because when I watched it and then thought for a lot further on it,

I said, Sean, are you raising a strong young man? You know, like I feel I am, but you know, I do it a little bit differently.

“But you know, it made me think, you know, and that's what I really love about what you put out there.”

You make people think, man. And, and I think that is so important.

Yeah, the book, it basically happened because so many young guys have been coming to see

me and they have no guides. No in person guides. And then no real content. So the publisher came to me and I wasn't even thinking of writing a book like that just wasn't on my list of goals. I came to me saying, hey, we want you to write a book for a men.

And I was like, okay, but there are thousands of books for men. So why would I write another one? Because there's plenty of good ones. And then two things hit me. I can't get, I have a list of like 10 to 15 books that I would love for every guy to read.

But reading is so into climb right now.

I knew that's never going to happen.

“So what if I took the best of those books and put it into one?”

And then I have always known that guys in their 20s have been tossed aside. And that pisses me off. And so I thought, well, if they want a book, I'm going to give them. I'm going to write something for a group that has been forgotten. And it's best as I can tell on his best as Harper Collins, the publisher can tell.

There's not been a book written for guys in their 20s. And so that like this this book is like, it's not going to be this mass-wide cellar that goes on open or anything. But I don't care. I want to reach guys that have felt feel like they're either forgotten or worse. Like they've been told, we don't really need you.

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Dude and what a great publisher, Harper Collins like dude, is this your first book first one and there's such kind people love them. They're great. I've worked with our their PR department on some guests and things like that they're a great group and great group. But no, I think you're right because when I look back to my 20s and I'm in college and I'm out playing baseball and I'm not going to say my dad stopped bothering me, but there was a big disconnect because I was out doing what I was doing right I'm in Louisiana, you know he's here and it's like those critical years man are so important because if you do not have direction.

I mean look what's going on in the world right now all the shootings all everything and a lot of them points to like not having a present father father figure this is a big deal. Yeah, but yet there's a big narrative going around like.

I can raise my son on my own he doesn't need a father.

And I don't know that life, you know, and I'm not going to judge it, I will say that there's so many strong women out there that are doing such a fine job, but also a man can't do with a woman can and and and in raising and a woman can't give what a father can they can give a ton.

“And I don't want that to be misconstrued ladies, I truly believe that you guys are way better than us, but there's certain things that that a young boy needs from his father.”

Yeah, I don't know why it has to be a competition between men and women, because you know social media do we're going to get torched on that one right.

We will put that out as a clip because we're going to get torched on it and that's okay, but yeah, man, it should not be a competition right you know it shouldn't be yeah well and because it's complimentary it's like peanut butter and jelly you got to have both to complete the sandwich here and so. Women in the comments sections or women say and like I don't need a man most of the comments that are in those type of videos that come from women it's heartbreaking because they're literally asking please help.

How do I raise my son on my own and then how do I get him around father figures and I don't have enough room and a comment to really help guide them and so I just I pray like God help them find somebody that's going to actually show them the way in person and I give him a couple tips and the comments as much room as it allows but the stats.

Yeah and then but the the positive side is if somebody does grow up with either a father or father figure they're 130% more likely to take on a leadership role in things like a company a team anything a little bit later in life. But 130% more likely just from having a father figure don't even have to be real dad and so like that right there's an important point for the audience too so like you know there's a lot of different programs right like that you can go out there and get mentors for your sons.

But sports sports sir is a big deal sports is a big deal because coaches become father figures and we both live that life as coaches and you know I didn't know until today you coach baseball right and so like all this makes sense right the easy connection the I mean we're we're in line with our ideologies here both baseball coaches like baseball baseball dude you can once you meet someone you know someone's baseball dude right. For me there was bit there was a lot of different mentors through me playing baseball that taught me things that my father didn't that you know maybe taught me patience maybe you know taught me certain things on how to respond instead of react so you know again there's many ways to get that mentorship in your life and it doesn't have to be a father I mean look I grew up with that a biological father.

“And I'm all married my dad who I call my I mean he's my dad no dad no I was like eight or nine that's my dad right you know but I know what that's like and I just think it's you know when I look at my children you know I'm not perfect.”

Shocker which I fall short you know so much and I fell short yesterday. You know I I flip my lid you know and I'm paying for that today because I look back at it and it's like I could have done better like I could have done so much better and it's funny because I never lose it on my son.

It's my daughters and I don't know what it is I think I know why that is I just feel like.

With my daughters like sometimes I just can't win you know what I mean it's like connect fully like no I think I mean like I'm super close with them but it's like.

“I feel like I like you can go down to like what I cook for dinner like there's only so many times like you can hear like I don't like that or like oh that's what we're having it's like.”

I've just spent the last two hours doing this you know so like I don't claim to be this all the time.

I am a human being and I struggle I think one of the biggest things that I have to work through is is simply that like the response instead of the react and and it's so hard when you're in the middle of it. And it's like my wife to this to me yesterday shows if you can't control your emotions as an adult how do you expect your children to.

“But you know and then I think another emotion that comes is like the disappointment you know like I I'm so disappointed in myself when when when things like that happen.”

Can I patch you on the back though yeah sure so the first thing you said even before you went into the story you owned up I'm flawed I lose my temper even before you talked about it on who you were losing it on like and you said the quote I think you literally said I need to be better.

I don't think 25% of men would be able to verbally say that stuff out loud they're going to come up with some excuse or they're going to blame like I was just talking to somebody's dad the other day.

And it was after it was after a sporting event and he ripped his son I mean literally called them a pussy. Yeah after and this was after after the dude had gotten injured and kept playing and lost because of the injury that's still cousin pussy and. I taught him I tried to keep calm because I wanted to you wanted to wish yeah you yeah I know what you wanted exactly and I just said hey what was your goal out of that conversation. Of course he's not gonna answer that he's too too defensive and I said if you had to do over again what you do it differently.

And he goes no because he needs to be tough and like it's it's always just pointing outward so the fact that you pointed inward and said like I messed up I got to get better that separates you from so many men right now it's sadly it's easy to separate ourselves from a lot of men these days but the other thing you said in terms of the.

We got no control over outcomes we can't figure out how we got there so we we feel disrespected and we don't really know it so we tend to start withdrawing from that from the home situations and stay more at work where we kind of get that sense of like okay I can make a difference I can't get the outcomes I want that's a great point man I mean it's a really good point because it's like there's only so much. A man can take right and you know over the last month that you know I've been told by my wife like hey you're you're escalating a little more I know you're stressed like you know you're taking you out on me and it's hurtful and I'm like.

You know feel like I am and you know I look back at it today it's like okay like I see it there are reasons and it's not what she or they think it's not the stress from the job it's certain stressors to where I feel.

I'm falling short at home yeah and I'm not trying to it's like that cook every meal you know I make sure the the kitchens cleaned I make sure like.

You know I help out with a laundry when I can I but I just feel like sometimes it's like. It's not enough and that's hard for a man because I am so busy I am doing a lot I'm constantly moving if I get a text during the day can I got an order from target or support can you go pick it up like do that that's taking time out of my day yeah. That you don't have that that I don't have but I but I but I do it because I want to serve and and I'll get. Very agitated if I feel under appreciated boom yeah and that's so common we we do need to be appreciated it's like.

“Earlier he talked about people feeling seen and heard whether it be in the comment section whatever like that's what a man needs it's like.”

There's a whole book called love and respect and we need both but generally speaking women need a little more love than respect and generally men need a little more respect and love and so. If we just hear those words like hey thank you like appreciate what you're doing. We're on through a wall for somebody especially our wife so yeah yeah you're normal congratulations normal man but but the problem the other issue is. Whenever we blow up or we give some sort of reaction if it's generally like on a scale of one to ten if it's like a six or above.

That's the indication that it's not really about what's happening in this moment one billion percent yeah one billion percent we carry around labels from from our past and limiting beliefs and. It's whatever happened in this moment probably hit that bruise that hasn't fully healed yet and our nervous system doesn't know time so it thinks that we're like in this moment but it's also when we're eight years old so. We just get all react and that's a hard thing to unravel to in the mind so if the audience are how how does one go through because for me like when that situation.

It was like it was a seven yeah wasn't eight nine or ten but it was it was border it was in between a six and a seven for sure I'm going to give myself a seven on that yes sir and.

“You know it's a point where I barely spoke the rest of the day and this morning you know and and then I think you know as a father it's like I just sent my kids off to school.”

You know and you never know it's going to happen in this day and age now again I'm not saying that I had a bad morning with my children I didn't you know I loved on them but I wasn't.

A hundred percent me I was feeling a little wounded from last night and also the shame of. Disappointing your wife two days before your anniversary oh gosh yes tomorrow's our seven year wedding anniversary and you know so that'll be after this come to be the you know February 20 first is our sorry 24th is our anniversary and I was like. How do you fuck that up Sean like how do you how do you honestly fuck it up so bad in that moment and everything was fine that one moment. And it's like what's wrong with him well your guess is as good as mine.

You know what I mean like. Yeah well. Can I can I dig on that please. I want to work for it. I want to cry here.

No go for it. That this is a job interview. I'm thinking about hiring you for real. I mean that is true, but this is not a job anyway. Go ahead.

So that voice that said. All right, Sean, how do you fuck that up that badly.

Did that sound like somebody from your past that's first question and then two.

Did that voice carry with it like.

“You're a failure or was it more of a curious tone like how did you mess that up?”

No, so I don't know.

I will say that I grew up around a lot of yelling.

“And so I think what it does is it brings me there.”

And it's like, I don't want my children to see that. But there's times where I fail and they do see that. You know, I'm not aggressive. I don't throw shit. I don't hit things.

I don't put my hands on people. But when I go, I go. Yeah. You know, because there's also a competitive spirit from me. I like I know.

I want you to know that I'm right. Like this is not the deal. Right. And so I think it plays on. You know, shame.

Yep.

Right. Like that I escalated to that point to where I now responsibly have to do damage control.

And those are hard moments, man. I mean, they teach me a lot.

“What they really teach me is like Sean, you have a lot we're going to do.”

And I'm here for it, man. Like I'm 47. I got a lot of life left. You know, hopefully. Yeah.

Right. But they got to me, man, it just plays on like I didn't like to hear that when I was a kid. And then I just put that in front of my kid. So I don't think it was, you know, a moment of like constructive criticism. I think it was more a moment of shame.

Sure. And I'm glad you used that word shame because that really is the word. But I've also found that most men don't really want to use that word. Then I'll really resonate with it. So what I found is two things.

The stuff from our past, I hate using word trauma because it's just so overused is. And guys, again, don't really connect to it. So I use the word injuries because, you know, we're athletes. We know. Yeah.

Well, some of my favorite conversations with guys. I hate what you worst injury ever. Like you can talk about. And so same idea. Like we get the internal injuries and just because we can't see them.

We think they're not there. But it's those moments from like your past when you were around a lot of yelling. That left injuries inside of you. And then when something happens that makes you feel like you're not good enough. Because that's what shame is.

So we got injuries and we got not good enough. What happens is those moments in the past that leave those injuries in us. They also leave messages or like meanings that we attach to them or connect to them. And so often it's like, well, because this event happened that hurt me. This must also mean that I'm not good enough because if I was good enough, it wouldn't have happened.

And so a lot of times the things that we react to in the moment is because, again, it's hitting that allegory. And then the ways we talk to ourselves it usually sounds like what you did this again. So that means you're not good enough and like, how did you screw this up again? Like it's it's the same cycle that keeps going over and over. Because they do thank you for that because, you know, and for the men and even the women listening.

Like when you have a certain event happen with your kids, you can't take that back. And what I think what makes, I don't want to say me special, but, but. Yeah, I'll say what the one of my gifts is like really feeling that. And going, do I want to be the reason my daughter's hurting right now? Like, no, you know, and I know my children think the world of me dude, like I know, I know they know their dad.

Those moments man, like those are so hard dude, you know, especially as a man. Oh, for sure.

Yeah, because we want to be the superhero and always come through.

It goes back to one of our kids, like, we want to be the guy that provides and protects. So when we don't do that perfectly, yeah, it's going to hurt. Yeah, but we got to, yeah, and we got to deal with the stuff in the past that keeps us in the cycle. Because if you don't deal with the past stuff, it's just, it's basically you arm wrestling with yourself, like, I got to do better today. Yeah, but you're, there's still something in you that's injured.

“And that's what's causing some of the explosive reactions.”

Let's dig into that real quick, because it is so hard for people to go back and see what their past injuries are. And I know you do EDMR. Does that help? They can, yeah, if they're, so there's all kinds of different ways to deal with the, the past injuries or traumas. EMDR is a, we don't have to say the fancy full name, but it's basically no the full name dude.

Yeah, and it's, I movement de-sensitization and reprocessing there. So that would nerd it out, which I do. But it works. And let me go back to what you said about talk therapy and how it doesn't work for men. I will, I don't mind getting clipped on this.

Talk therapy generally does not work for men. Like a conversation works for men, because we need to talk. We need to be heard. But in terms of making the actual changes at the root, talk therapy doesn't get it. No, because talk therapy hits the front of the brain, which is where our rational logical thinking is.

But the stuff, the roots are in the subconscious brain. And talking doesn't reach the subconscious brain, because your subconscious doesn't speak English. Like I put it in the book, I have this, this concept called the caveman. The caveman is responsible for all those like outbursts and instincts.

He lives in your subconscious. And so you could sit here and talk it out all day. But it ain't going to touch him because he speaks a different language. He speaks things like EMBR or breathing or other types of movements in therapy.

So when I meet with a guy in a truly therapeutic way, we do a lot of talking at first.

But that's just to build a connection course. And then once they trust being enough, then we get into subconscious stuff. So EMDR is one of those ways. And it works with eye movement, the kind of the back and forth eyes are tapping with your legs. You're tapping under shoulders because again, it's bypassing that brain, the front of the brain and getting to the roots whole lot faster.

“What are some other ways that you reach that caveman in subconscious?”

My favorite way is internal family systems. Like can you ever see the movie inside out the first or the second one? Yeah, I've seen both of them. Yeah, like that, I hate compliment or complimenting certain things that Disney does. But that movie, they took five years of my grad school and they shrink it into two hours of a movie.

It is genius, really. I'm sitting there. I took my nieces and nephews to it and they're laughing and having fun. At the same time, I see what they're actually doing with the scene. I'm over there crying.

So I'm like, don't look at me. So what happens is in that movie, they really do show that these characters, they're these parts in us. And the parts are not us. So if we start beating ourselves up like with your explosion, like yes, it came out of you. But that wasn't the real you that exploded.

That was a part in you that felt threatened. Like the caveman.

“And so when the caveman feels threatened, he thinks you're literally going to die.”

It's like, I'll give you the quick load out of the caveman. So he thinks that anything is might kill you. And he was really helpful back in the days when we were out hundred gatherers, like having to kill our food and live out in the wild. Like if you heard something rustling in the bushes, like that might be a bear. So you need your caveman to put you into fight or flight mode.

And now I mean, we're in comfortable indoor setting. So he kind of has no job, but he's he's pretty dumb. He's really good at the one thing of keeping you alive. But he's sitting there board looking for a job. So he'll look at something like a speech or a confrontation, like a uncomfortable

Convertation with your wife or your boss. And he thinks well, if it's uncomfortable, it might kill us. So we got to we got to bow up or we got to run away. And so we have to do things that are ways that speak to him. So again, IFS is like, you kind of you close your eyes.

It's a weird spooky thing at first, but it's not spooky because there's research behind it. But you actually have to have little imaginary conversations in your own head with these little parts. And like at first, because I tried it as a client first before I ever got trained in it. And like that's the only type of therapy that really broke through really.

And so I never heard of that one, internal family systems.

It's really interesting because like to your point, it's like when you, I've never. So again, conversation right helps. Like I've never had anybody break down to me what the subconscious is. Yeah. It's like, okay, it's okay. It's a caveman doesn't speak English. It's based on wiring this, you know, past injuries, the fighter fly.

“I have to protect or I have to kill or be killed exactly because that's what happened way back in the day.”

You know, that that's just an interesting that that's that's pretty damn cool, man. Because I now I kind of understand it a little bit more. Yeah, so okay, this isn't me. This is that guy, you know, but we got to get a fine ways to tame them, right? And so like because I don't find it helpful when he comes out.

No, but he'll come out on. He'll come out on certain things. You know, for me, and I love conversations like this because it, it gives more connection with the gas. But also gives audience a really big peak behind me. And I think the one thing that makes this show really good is that I'm not afraid to share it.

Love it. I'm not because if it helps someone cool. Yeah. But like do these moments, man, when they hit, it's usually because I feel threatened. There you go. It's like, you're trying to take something from me.

You know, it could be with the business. It could, you know, the show. It could be anything like that. In the moment, I feel like someone's trying to take my shit. I can't shut it off. Yeah.

You know, Emma, I've always said, like, you go zero to 60.

Like that. And it's very few and far between, but when you do, like, I got, I got to remove myself. Yeah. It's because I'm truly at that moment in time overly emotional. It's right across from six up to six.

Gone. And what you're, what you just said is you got to remove yourself. That is the exact way to handle it. You're, you're never going to be perfect enough to never have the reaction. So if you keep beating yourself up for having the reaction, nothing's going to change.

But if you remove yourself, so that you don't do more damage.

And so many guys, because of past experiences, again, we beat ourselves up.

And the very thing that keeps us stuck is shame or telling ourselves that we're not good enough. Well, what do you think's going to happen next? If that's the voice you keep telling yourself. So crazy. Like, when that happened, I jumped in the shower.

Doing it. And I went to the grocery store. Yeah. And I went to go get the stuff for dinner. I just needed to get away.

Yeah. And for me, I like to get away, but also be productive. And not the type of parent nor husband. That's going to get away and stay away. It's going to be, well, when I get away, I'm still going to do something for the family.

You know, I don't, I don't go play around.

“I don't have to the bar because back in the day, man, that's what the caveman did.”

Exactly. Like, you know, I remember like, if my dad got pissed, he was like, sometimes he would not even come home that night. There was times. Yeah. There was times.

And I've never done that.

Yeah, man, the removal at the end of the moment, right? It is so important, but it's also got to be done respectfully. Exactly. You know, like, I told the kids like, hey, I'm just going to the store. I will be back.

Yeah. I will be back. But I think what men and even women, just human beings in general, what's so important for us to understand how to, I guess, fix or temper is not ever feeling these emotions, because we're going to feel them. But feel them.

And then. Okay. Am I really under threat right now? Is my daughter really trying to kill me?

“Is what my wife saying really trying to take my livelihood away?”

Yeah.

And the answer is going to be 100% no.

No. But the trick is, how does one not react? Mm-hmm. Yeah. It goes back to what you just said.

We got a respond and not react. And here's the thing, an emotion. It will run its course through your body, because emotion is really just a chemical. It runs through your body in 90 seconds to two minutes. So if you can remove yourself for at least that long, and like you said, do it respectfully.

Say, hey, I just need a minute, so I can come back as my best self. But get away. I love how you said you took a shower. I don't know if you did that on purpose or not. But when you put something to different temperature on your skin, that's one of the ways to talk to the caveman.

Mm-hmm. Because what he's doing, the reason that we actually react is that he comes from the subconscious brain and shuts down your front of your brain. So he shuts down your rational thinking. Is that why when people get mad and sometimes I'll get really mad, I'll say shit that I probably shouldn't. Oh, yeah, interesting.

That's it. It's literally like if you looked at a brain scan in that moment when you were reactive, the front of your brain would be almost like it's dead. Mm-hmm. Just like the lights turned off in the front of your brain, but the back of the brain would be so lit up and active. So doing something like step one, remove yourself, step two, do some sort of temperature on your skin.

Or one little trick I like is if you put your hand in your chest for about two minutes and then breathe into your belly. So your stomach starts expanding like a balloon. That tells your brain that you're getting a hug. Mm-hmm. It's wild.

Like the way the body is wired, it's like, okay, God knew what he was doing with the whole like. Interesting. All the nervous system and mind-body connection. So if you do stuff like that or write out like, okay, I'm feeling this. I'm having this thought like when you see it on paper, it's so much less intimidating when you're like, oh, it's just these little words.

And you slow yourself down enough to let the caveman know that I'm safe and I can lead us. Because he thinks in those moments like you're about to get killed, I got to take over. Do that, and it's a crippling feeling, right? Because, you know, there's a level of me that knows that this isn't okay. Yeah.

“It's not okay, but once you get there, you can't shut it off, right?”

And, you know, I think I might have seen it from you, but I mean, because you triggered a memory and said, you know, that, that emotion is going to sit with you for 90 seconds. Mm-hmm. So if I just make it through 90 seconds, 90 seconds, like, that's a challenge. I mean, it doesn't seem like it would be a dude. It's a minute and a half, right?

Like figure your shit out bro, but like dude, that minute and a half feels like an eternity. Oh, it's about when you're in it, when you're in it, and the energy that it's stripped you of, I went to the store, came home. My son goes, hey, can we watch King of Collectibles? Huh?

You know, the King Golden, I've seen every season, every episode. I love that show, but I turned it onto my son, and, you know, we sat down. I turned it on for him, and then I was like, this one into this section, and he was way over there. And I'm like, no, I'm going to go sit down like in the middle at least. And then when I did, he moved closer to me, and he, you know, he's 12.

Like, you know, and it's crazy because my wife says this too. He's our Zen boy. Like, that kid can heal you in two minutes.

He's always been extremely emotionally intelligent.

It's scary. Like you can walk into a room and he can read it. Wow. He can read it, dude. And he knows what you need, you know, how to give it to you. And it, dude, I felt, I, dude, like, I literally, it's super, I thought I did.

It's truly man, like, I passed out, but the, when you expend that emotion. Yeah. And, you know, kind of start coming down from it, bro. Like, I don't know about you, but I'm wiped. Oh, yeah, everybody's done.

Yeah. And if, if you're not, then it means you're still activated. And then you're still in that address. That's right. Exactly.

No hope you're done. If you're done, bro. You're done.

“But yeah, like, it, you have to come down from that.”

Like any adrenaline rush is going to wipe us out. It just takes so many resources to survive that moment of emotion. So, yeah, once again, you're normal. I have to think of it. But you know, I think it's one thing to be normal, but, you know, it's still for me.

It's like, okay, it's something to work on, right? Like, I don't, I don't, I don't ever want to be like, okay, well, you know, my new therapist said, it's normal, I'm okay. Like, it doesn't give me permission. No.

And it shouldn't give any man or any woman or any child permission to act a certain way. Yep. But I'm damn sure responsible for not passing on that generational thing to my kids. And that's the thing that bothers me the most. Because at that moment, I fucking failed.

Yeah. And again, it happens very few and far between. But, you know, it, I think it's also being a good parent.

It's like understanding like, wait a second, that's not.

I messed up. And when I sit down with my daughter tonight, when I get home, I'm going to sit down with her. I'm going to talk to her. Mm-hmm.

No, I mean, we're fine.

“You know, we, we did the cuddles last night.”

We got a ready for school took her, but like, I still want to acknowledge like, hey, I know you film stress and I know you feel that I'm reacting to you in certain ways. Like, I want to talk about it. Because I also want her to understand where I'm coming from.

You know, so that way she can, you know, make adjustments on her end as well. Yes. And so, okay, this, you know, maybe it's not, it's not, it's me. It's like so funny. It's like it's not what you say.

Mm-hmm. Ever. Tell you say it. It's nice.

You know, you can't tell you what happened.

Please. Okay. So they had a late breakfast. And I made a big breakfast. And like all day, they, they didn't ask for lunch.

And I didn't realize it was 330. I'm like, oh, shit. Like a jacket. I go, they didn't eat lunch. Okay.

I go. So I call, you know, my son up.

“I say, hey, go down and talk to your sister.”

You know, it's already 330. So once you guys have some fruit, have a snack or something. And then I'm going to go to the store right now. And I'm going to make dinner and early dinner. Well, he told my daughter that, oh, she didn't like it.

Oh, she didn't like it. She didn't like it. You know, she came, she came up. And it wasn't like a, hey, I really was like to eat lunch. Can you please make something small, so I can eat?

Oh, no, she came in with a half Ecuadorian attitude. Like half crying, like looking at me and like, and it, it was just like that moment. I'm like, this seven year old is handing me my lunch right now. And no pun intended. Well, actually pun intended.

But it was like a, I read it differently than my wife. A wife wrote it as she's just emotional. She's sad because she didn't have lunch. I'm like, we don't serve our kids here. Like this is fucking, it was one time.

But it was, it was the energy of, like, you disappointment. Like how did it, it wasn't, if she would've came up with sort of, you know, like, but daddy, I'm really hungry. Like I want lunch. I'm like, okay, you know, but set me off to it.

I went downstairs, caught up some damn meat through a mandarin on her plate. I'm like, you're lunch is downstairs. You know, and then she didn't eat her dinner. Yep. You know, but that, you know, and people might be listening.

Like, let's show on that's not a big deal. But like, you don't live in my house. You don't understand my programming and, and how I perceive that moment. Yeah. But like, on a big scale, like, they're right.

It's not that big of a deal. But at that moment, it was like, the slow year roll, like, who are you talking to? Right. You know, and it was on the heels of the night before, you know,

I'm making all this, I mean,

and it comes down.

“And my daughter, I don't want people to think that my daughter is not.”

She's an amazing human being.

She's a sweetheart. But she comes down and goes, I don't like lime cilantro rice. And I said, I looked at her, I don't like your attitude. You know, but here's the key.

Here's the key. That only happens when she watches a lot of TV. Uh, we don't, we don't turn on the TV during the week. And then on the weekends, it's a privilege. You know, it's not, it's not a privilege.

No, it's not, yeah, it's a privilege. It's like, it's not a given. It's like, okay, at 12 o'clock, you can turn on the TV and watch something. But what happens is my wife and I like to spend time together,

because we don't ever really get to during the week. You're like, all right, cool. Let's let them watch it. Well, then, yep.

“You know, like, the monster comes out with that little girl.”

Man, the TV does it, right? Yeah. And so like, I don't know, I mean, I'm rambling at this point. But that's exactly what happened. And, you know, working through it, man. Well, one thing you said, like, somebody from the outside looking in,

they've got the vantage point of objectivity. So they're in their logical brain. But if they were in your situation, they'd be in their caveman brain. And then the reactions. And your daughter was in her caveman brain, because like,

when we're hungry, I don't know about you. When I get hungry, like, it's, it's an urgent situation. Even though I'm not going to start, but there's something logical in me is like, I got to get food. Mm-hmm.

So she was probably had the night going on. And then whatever, you know, what she said is made, you feel like the disappointment was triggered the whole injuries. But here's the thing. And this, I want to connect this to what you posted earlier today on your account.

Oh, okay. Yeah. The fact that it made you feel like a disappointment. That tells me that there's something in you that is afraid of being a disappointment. And usually if we're afraid that something's true about us,

usually means something happened in the past that made us feel that way. I can break that down for you. Yeah. Thank you for bringing that video up, man, because that was a very raw video. Yeah.

There's more about it. I don't want to talk about it. Yeah. But for me, you know, kind of what I'm talking about in that video is, you know, my whole life I grew up as a baseball player.

And I talk about this a lot like my identity shift or my identity crisis post sports, whatever, the moment I had my arm injury,

when I got to LSU, I never materialized into what they thought I was going to be.

What I felt I was going to be. And that created this massive creator-sized chip on my shoulder to where, like, wait a second. Now Dad might be right because I'm not going to succeed here. And I'm not going to go play the major leagues.

I have no other skills, right? And so when I feel stagnant and growth or when I feel like we're not being seen, because nothing will trigger me more. I'm very protective of this company. I'm very protective of this show.

And when I don't feel seen, I take that very personally. And I know I shouldn't, you know, if you look at the base of the four agreements, don't take anything person. I'm breaking the agreement, right?

“Because I believe in that, but I'm also human, right?”

So like in those moments of where I'm saying, what's the next step? What's the next step? What is this? How do we grow?

How do we grow? So about being seen is about breaking through the white noise at the internet. That's all it is. It's not going to make my life infinitely better.

It might financially, but I've already got an amazing wife and three beautiful children in a nice house.

Like I've got everything. I've got more than a lot of people have, right? But those moments right there is triggered on the fact that not being seen and not performing. And the magic part of this is those fears of not being seen and not performing. Those probably have come in handy for you in building your success.

So we can't just take them and throw them out. Like one of the reasons I'm meeting some of the stuff you're saying, or all the stuff that you're saying with grace and curiosity is because you want to grow. And you've said it. You're not looking for excuses and looking at blame.

If you were, if this were a real therapy session, you were looking at excuses and looking at blame. I'd be having a whole different approach with you. But of course, but with somebody like you that wants to grow, I'm just saying, Hey, it's not really you that's responding in this way. It's not really you that wants whatever happened in that moment, the blow up and all that.

So let's get curious about what's really underneath. And so those are that concept of not being seen and being a disappointment. I'll tell you a couple of quick stories to help kind of give some context here. In the book, I talk about this guy. He walked in on the very first session, young guy, late 20s.

He walks in and he's mad. I've never met him.

He's already pissed. Like what did I do?

And I'm a little nervous.

Like, do I need to defend myself? And he walks in and he takes out his car keys and he slams him on the table.

“And it's a keys to like a Lamborghini, I think.”

And he goes, all right. I drive a Lamborghini and he takes out his phone and shows me a picture. He's got a great looking wife. Two cute kids. I got a wife.

I got two kids. I make blah, blah, blah whatever it was for you. And he goes, no, tell me, why the blank amount not happy. Just silence. He's like stare and holes through me because like I'm going to somehow come through

for him in one sentence. So you talk about not wanting to be a disappointment. Yeah, Jesus. I got to come through for this guy. And so what happened was we dug underneath the surface.

And we realized that he thought because of past events. He thought that if he can just achieve enough that he won't be running away from the label of disappointment anymore because stuff happened to him in his past where he really did feel like a disappointment in all of his success. He thought or a part of him thought and his subconscious.

If I just achieve enough, then I don't have to worry about being a disappointment anymore.

“And that's that's so much that's why your video from Instagram,”

resonate with me and like, oh man, the fuel that that causes us to achieve certain things. We got to keep that because we if we throw it out and we're throwing it out and throwing out some of our true DNA, but we got to harness it because the stat is people who reach big goals within three months of reaching that goal. They go back to their kind of normal level of feeling like normal level of happiness,

normal mood, whatever. So it doesn't last that long, but even the biggest accomplishments about three months later, you're back to feeling normal. And so Victor Franco is a Holocaust survivor. He had a great concept. He said, it's not that achievement is wrong.

It's just that you're making yourself the center of the story. And so if we can keep that in mind, it's like achievement is great. And because two things are true, it's not a butt. It's an end. Achievement's great.

And it needs to be aimed at something in service of something bigger than ourselves. But so often we that caveman takes over and it's like just a little more, just a little more like Rockefeller's quote was how much somebody asked him how much money is enough. It's just one more dollar. It's just never enough.

And that's one of the reasons I could put that word enough in the title was because like, guys feel like we're not good enough. Not strong enough. Not tough enough. Not good looking enough.

Not rich enough. Whatever it is.

And like, yeah, there's never going to be a finish line.

If that's how we're shaping things. So interesting. Like when I when I was fourth grade, I was the only new student in the in the school. I'm walking in on the first day of class.

I'm nervous. I don't know if I'm gonna fit in. They're all sitting in a circle and I walk to the circle. Just nervous as I'll get out and one dude looks up. And he goes damn.

I'm glad I'm not looking into a mirror right now. And I'm like looking back. That's kind of a clever insult from a fourth grader. That's pretty good. But in that moment, I wanted to just crawl in a hole and disappear.

That man. What I didn't realize was in that moment. But in theory, it left an injury in me. And I took away some messages or some labels, some limiting beliefs. Like, I must be ugly.

If I'm the new guy in a situation, I'm probably going to get rejected. So anytime I can't avoid being the new guy, I better just be quiet and not bring any attention to myself. So like for me, not getting rejected was the thing. I kept trying to achieve more to outrun.

Like with you, not being a disappointment. Being was the thing you potentially keep achieving to try to outrun. It's the same playbook because just our caveman trying to solve a problem in a way that's not really helpful. You know, it's interesting because my buddy Rich sent me a message on Instagram. He's like, bro, I haven't you read relentless for 10 gr.

Like three times.

He was well cleaners are always searching.

You know, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, that's not a bad thing. And he's right to an extent. I think, you know, a may have said, you know, people are going to say whatever to sell books. That is what it is. I do believe that high achievers are always pushing.

But my point is, is when it robs you or robs me of the present joy of what is already being created. But that's a fucking problem. Yes, sir. Okay, because I'm going to tell you something. I know what's been publicized about Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant.

Two goats. Sorry, in the story, by the Jordan never lost the finals. Yeah. Sorry, you know, a three-peat twice and didn't have to move teams. You know who I'm coming after here.

“You have to move teams and recruit players to win championships.”

No, he carried him. He carried him. He made it work with what he had there. But at the same time, like, even with Kobe Bryant, man, like you would a championship. And then he'd be in the gym the next morning at 4am, shooting hoops and trying to get better.

But that does not mean that he was not proud of what happened in the night before. And where I get lost in the world, I think a lot of people get lost, especially in this industry,

No, no, like you, like, well, how do I get there? And then it takes away from the growth of last one month.

“That's why I said, like, hey, you know, you got to, you know, why aren't we looking back at the last 12 months and seeing if there's any growth?”

If you haven't grown, well, then you have a serious conversation to have with yourself. But if there's being growth, then you're on the right path.

The problem is they came in once it now.

Yes, I want my kill now. I want to eat now, and that's not the way the shit works. Right. Again, he wants it now because he thinks if you don't get it, you'll literally die. So we got to like, we got to treat that urge with some care as if he's a toddler that just doesn't know any better.

Because if we try to squish him with distractions like stay in busy at work or substances or sex, or whatever it is, if we try to squish him down and try to ignore him or just silence him, he's going to get worse. He's going to pop off. Exactly.

He's going to pop off. It's interesting because like, yeah, as we did, I mean, gosh, I could go the forever. But like, the thing is is like, you mentioned earlier, like, when you have reactions, or anybody has reactions, like for the audience, if you have reactions, right? Or you're, you're popping off or your kids popping off.

And he talks about the caveman with me. But then you said that was your daughter's caveman. That may be the fix because now that could be a trigger for me.

“And a good, in a good way, if they're popping off, like,”

that's their caveman. There you go. That's like, I don't want to say it's a trigger, but it's like a checkpoint. Like, okay, well, not need to be here forks. I know what my caveman's like.

I can't let mine come out right now. I got to help her. There you go. That's really cool, man. Yeah, the more we understand how our body is really working,

how our minds really work, we see it in everybody. And like, sometimes you got to be careful because nobody, not nobody, but very few people want to have it pointed out in the moment. So you kind of have to keep it to yourself. Like, oh, yeah, that's their caveman.

Like, that's their past injury coming out right here in this moment. I'll do women love the point out your shit in the time. Right there in the moment. It's like not the time. Not the time.

Can you wait about seven hours? Yeah, I'm shutting off my phone. I don't want to read the text. That's right. You know, but look, man, now I appreciate you so much, man.

This has been so amazing and such a great experience having you here.

And look forward to getting up to Tennessee to see you. Let's do another. I've got a lot of people up there in Nashville. So I need to get up there, but come on. We get you some boots and jeans.

Yeah, come on, man. Some some wranglers. Right. I can't where I can't where I can't where I can't we're expressing and shots on the cow pasture. Yeah, your boots will show through the to the jeans we had.

But no, man. For the audience, you know, obviously, I know where to find you. But let them know, you know, your website. I believe it's rugged counseling.com. The book website is tough enough.com.

And then, you know, the socials are easy to find. Just really counseling on those. But yeah, I have this felt like 15 minutes. So this is how we're going on an hour and 15. Actually, where you close, right?

Right, Ryan, like about an hour. Yeah, I mean, we're killing it over here. Oh, I loved it. You know, they're so much absolutely man. And it's just, again, it was an honor having you here.

And sorry, it took so damn long to get you here, man. But it's perfect timing. Yeah, man. You know, I just feel like it happens at the right time. And, you know, I truly, you know, enjoy everything that you do.

And when I get to see your stuff come up with my guys, my guy. It's my guy right there doing it. You've, you built such an amazing platform.

“I think the book's going to sell more than you realize.”

And we're going to put it in the show notes too. So I'm just that way. The audience can, you know, go check it out. Because there's, there's dads here, man, that listen to the show that, you know, I think this book can really help their relationship with their, with their sons,

or even their daughters.

And not that it's broken, but like it can always be better.

It can always be better. It can always be better. So do, thank you so much, man. Thank you, brother, enjoy it. My guy, my guy.

Well, there you have it, guys. My boy, Trey Tucker broke me down, gave me a counseling session. Literally on camera. And I kind of had a feeling that this was going to happen. And I'm glad it did because if I can show you guys that we all struggle,

and we all have our issues and things that we need to work on, our traumas, our internal injuries, as Trey liked to say, then we're all in this together and we're all normal. You know, it's our job to really find out better ways where we can cope in, and counsel ourselves and be better for our children,

and better for all the people around us. So I just want to remind you guys again, go to the DetermancesID.com, sign up for the newsletter, please, and share this show with someone you know, love and trust.

Go follow my boy, Trey at Rugged Counseling, on Instagram, go buy his book at toughenuff.com,

Because he's helped me out tremendously as you can see,

“and I just think he's a great dude and in my humble opinion,”

there's not enough good people right now being highlighted on social media.

So let's start that wave of highlighting good people

“and giving love to where it matters the most.”

And until next time, stay determined.