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“This isn't a tactic for a drop-shipping brand that's just trying to make money right like you have to have a story to tell.”

Brands with stories to tell when they'd lead with this sort of thing. It just sort of fits. The core piece of growth for most brands comes from circumstances that comes from angle testing. That's like the actual framework that you need to be running from like a growth strategy standpoint. Every single advertiser is saying the exact same things. You're running ads that no longer lead with our product is special because.

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It's all killer. No filler. I am Eric. This is the D to C podcast and we are back with Principles. What can we call you a Principle from Marlbank, one of the co-founders of Marlbank, which is pilot house and D to C's sister agency, focused it on earlier stage companies that and so it's a I think you guys came on the podcast a couple of months ago, met some cool brands from that. Welcome back. I'm stoked to be back busy businesses and all the sudden it's Q4 here.

So to drill in on what we are talking about again, it's really a continuation of what we spoke about last time, which was sort of the methodology that Marlbank uses for helping differentiate the brands that to find and differentiate and eventually scale the brands that join you on Marlbank. So for those who are just catching up now, remind us of this methodology. Yeah, so we like to call it circumstance testing. And yeah, I know we talked about that last time,

but the way that I really see like most brands like the core piece of growth for most brands comes from circumstance testing, comes from angle testing. It like that is like the

“that's like the actual framework that you need to be running from like a growth strategy standpoint.”

And that's about finding your thing. It can be like a seemingly niche circumstance where your product is just this obvious decision for someone and it might seem like a niche circumstance, but it can actually be very scalable. And I think the reason and what I wanted to talk about today is not a certainly not a replacement for circumstance testing or angle testing or that really important work. This is more of like a tactic where sometimes brands can be

like a really proprietary, interested people and actually participate in the community that they're selling products into or actually just have a really, really great product, but they're missing that like obvious distinction that sometimes makes circumstance testing a little bit easier. So it's things like, you know, they like change up the form factor. Right? That's an obvious one. It's like disruptive to a space or, you know, it's literally like a flavor

that's never been done before or they genuinely invented something or like changed a product in

some way. That's that's usually like the the the easiest way to find a niche circumstance where

brands that have great products but might be missing that obvious distinction. And so the whole idea of

trying to niche down or angle test can sort of turn into this like war of attrition where you sort of feel like you're in like a shouting match with every other competitor and you're trying to do the hard work of communicating why your product is really great without this potential sort of hero distinction. And, you know, the tactic I really what sort of comes to mind of what I want to talk about is what do you do if you find yourself in those sorts of situations because like

so many brands I think out there and especially that are advertising on meta have really great products and are really cool sort of heroes in their community. But it's a matter like the the heart of the challenge is convincing people that your product is great when literally every single competitor out there is or all saying the same thing like everyone is going to say their product is great right? And they're all going to have the same sort of checklist about efficacy and the brand

looking sweet and and so really circumstance testing is I understand it really also takes into account the customer on the other side. You're not just sort of talking about your product to a to a supposed audience you're following you know what's unique about your product all the way through

“to how it impacts a specific avatars or customer's life in a way right and that's what completes”

the circumstance. It's how does your product seamlessly fit into someone's life right and and that's kind of where the sort of question of removing friction making buying your product and an obvious sort of no brainer potentially even impulse decision. That's that's really the goal of it's like circumstance testing is you want you don't want to be so many uprever right? You can find these places where momentum is in your in your favor and then you can do a lot sort of with a natural sort of own

that specific that specific space but the this sort of removing of friction by first finding hey like

we really really win with these people let's like first find that and then iterate from there like that's sort of the general framework. What matters to those people so in the example we were talking about which we could get into or or not to whatever degree you want to in this case it was like taking a company that that had a product that was you know not vastly differentiated against other health products but it was the fact that this product has a big footprint in retail

and sort of using that as the circumstance to say hey this is the product that you know

“that is available coast to coast and it's like that's what mattered to that audience maybe”

talk about that example as much as you can. Yeah so basically the reason this is a good example is because this particular this is a supplement company and they have a very very good product but the people behind it are you know PhD level chemists I believe like like very much a scientific background where they came up with this really really cool proprietary supplement and it is like we know and sort of like from an advertising perspective you get this like feeling like you want

to shake people by the shoulders and like you know you don't actually understand this is meaning fully better than the market average or what you know from the other ads you're seeing

the problem is is that's not necessarily a compelling like it doesn't give you much to work with

necessarily from an ads perspective without that obvious distinction like like I mentioned so they're in this sort of category where great product but there isn't an obvious thing to latch on to to sort of help people believe it's better and so the this tactic I can sort of call the sometimes it's called the founders angle sometimes you know like I sort of think of this is the brand growth story angle where I would say this applies to any brand if you if you're a

hero of your own vertical like you actually use the product you sell you made this brand because you love the space it participates in you have a story right like a like a a reason behind this this brand existing and then you also actually have a really great product but then you know you find yourself in a similar situation here where the reasons it's better might not be that obvious

“that's kind of where this this comes in because customers you know like basically you have to”

imagine if you're a supplement brand and you have an all-in-one supplement say for skin and

from different advertisers and different brands that all sell similar products to help supplement

“these particular problems and the the question that you're you're finding yourself in from a customer”

standpoint is results it's it's sort of like cost relative to results it is the this sort of that the trust factor right of how much risk am I taking obviously depends on the circumstances

this person already using a supplementer is this the first time taking it and for for this particular

example for months like when we when we onboarded with them what we were doing was that sort of more traditional typical ad work where we're trying to convert these scientific terms about proprietary formulas and why their products are actually different into these more marketing materials that customers could understand so it's sort of playing this game of seeing if there's a right combination of words or positioning or like leading with different

“elements of why their product is unique that sort of gets the job done other customer being like”

oh I I get why this all-in-one skin and hair health supplement is actually better than the other 10 brands I'm seeing ads from and we just didn't find anything it was like the shouting match that that we found ourselves in and so the growth strategy playbook and that this sort of tactic here if you have a really great product that isn't necessary like the the the the quality of it isn't obvious is to sort of make this switch where you run ads and you run hooks and all of your

angles talk about the basically the the story the the brand growth and the sort of potential

people behind the brand and the actual like founders behind it and in a way that implies the product is very special and very you know has a high efficacy people love it right but the core

“difference is you're running ads that no longer lead with our product is special because it's”

actually like talking about the the the reception from the community in this very like gratitude forward way that implies the product must be you know the product must be good if if people like if this many stores if it's not right then you're sort of leveraging whatever big retailer might be associated with its cred and it's sort of like you're showing not telling you can tell all day about what makes your product different but if you can find a way to show that these other

huge organizations maybe you know are backing you then that's a good way to do it that's something that a lot of other supplement companies that instantly in people's minds you know it sets you apart from these other supplement companies that people are aware of exactly so it's it's literally like you know cool people don't walk around talking about how cool they are right so if you imagine

the 10 brands at all have it at first glance seemingly similar product that is it's a supplement

right there is this very different feel so that one of the hooks that we had for for this particular brand that really moved the needle was from small town to every whole foods in Canada and obviously not every brand can say they're in every whole foods in Canada but that's the point where all of a sudden there's this huge separation from certainly from like the dropshipping you know you come people but also now from the middle pack people where you know that some

of them might have a good product some of them might not but it's it's really saying the things that the other brands can't is where this sort of starts right and you know you also humanize the brand by the you know the type of content you run is typically early stage you're sort of showing the humble beginnings and you're also creating this sort of community sentiment of the type of brand that people would want to support in the first place right and so like you can

get really creative with how you run that that playbook that this sort of brand grows gratitude angle really all you're doing is your your the the winds and successes that you have had as a as a brand and an a product where even if they're even if you don't have a ton of customers or you're not in every whole foods in Canada you can you can sort of pull this every legitimate brand has a story and you can kind of start to pull this together where the the gratitude and appreciation

might be one really really strong sort of like tear-drinking review where it's like from humble beginnings to like making a big difference for people and if you're just starting out like you might

but that's where you can get really creative with this where again the key is you're not saying

“your product is great you're implying it and there's so many creative ways that the the brands can”

do that and that's just starts with being the right type of brand and like having a compelling story that people want to hear you know this episode is brought to you by focal the AI asset management platform for creative teams everyone working in D to C uses an LLM now but almost everyone uses it in their own silo your media buyer and your creative strategists each have their own chats and neither knows what the other knows in creative that can get expensive real fast brands

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14 day trial of focal and 20% off annual plans when they sign up in october head to focal dot ink slash dtc that's foc a l dot i and c slash dtc the other piece that you have going for you in that particular example is the sort of like candidate type situation i'm sure there's a any time you're dealing in Canada it is a candidate made product right now and i'm sure the same thing applies in a lot of ways for the u_s_ depending on maybe the part of the patriotic u_s_a_ that

“you're in but you don't mean like i think that's definitely something it has going for it”

with the elbows up crowd for for Canada for like 100% and um you know like uh one of the things too was like their Canadian brand made a Canada like i said it's a great product um we've seen angles with this work where the this sort of before pieces the you know literally founders like kitchen table or garage whether fulfilling orders at the beginning and they're the the now piece is the new facility and you're doing this through this lens of where it started versus how the

operation looks now and again it's it's right up that alley of it's like oh well the product must like there must be something here if they're able to you know make these jumps and and that's what it's all about where you're sort of shifting the perception in in a various sort of non-salesy way and it's it's just it's such a great um you know it's such a low hang for things to do too where like i would encourage like if this is like relevant to any brand it literally starts with

you know you look through your camera really looking for the early days you know start up

“feel types of content and then you have to just ask yourself it's milestones it's like where did we”

start where are we now and how do we then convert that into this sort of template of a new prospecting add on meta where you're you're sort of leaving with this you know showing the humble beginnings to to where you are now in that sort of implicit way about product advocacy or product quality or why the community loves it so much and it can be really really powerful even if you're just going to a PDP that might not carry a ton of that content forward too

um but man you can it that works for you like if you have a compelling story and it can be compelling sort of that and now you can take that so far I can turn into lightning page experiences it's a very scalable like awareness cold top of funnel tactic right so it's specifically designed for like the coldest part of the funnel being meta meta prospecting introduce singer yourself to

people who've never heard of you before and you think I you know I wonder if you ran LTV tests on

audiences driven from that kind of creative versus this product has the following features and it does the following things or whatever if you're actually bought in like oh wow what a great you know humble story or whatever you know you might be more bought in on the brand it might be might be contributing to both performance and brand in the situation that you're in yeah I was thinking

is some point in time but are really big now and I've sort of pulled this through the different evolutions of Yukong growth and to the came to mind so one is vibrant industrial and then the other is Maran skincare and you know they had worked with both of them and at their time at a pilot house and man I was looking at their website and those are huge businesses you know like very very mature Yukong businesses and beyond Yukong but if you go to either of their websites and you like

there's a very distinct block on each of their home pages for the story the about us the problem we were solving Maran in particular because it was actually one of the founders like

first-hand problems and you know those are just examples of this sort of framework and and tactic

and how it can evolve over many years and sort of levels of growth but you know Maran is a good example of a brand that I would say sort of has both they have the obvious distinction they have like a special ingredient right like lobster lotion is their thing that they can sort of center around being this like they are the the dry skin and the Xima solution for people who have tried a bunch of solutions that haven't worked like that's their thing and they're able to own it

because of their ingredients and then they also have this part of the formula which is the story where it started first-hand problem humble beginnings husband and wife founded brand to where they are now which is this like incredibly successful the company and like that

“if you look at the prospecting ads that they run in their ads library it's like that's why”

they're such a great business and such a great advertiser. Viper is probably similar their distinction

might even be less obvious because they just make really high quality shop shares where at first

especially in the early days like it might not actually be that obvious like if you're just looking at creative and an odd why it's that much better than you know the high-end stuff you'd find at the store but they have this really cool sort of family-led story that helps create this sort of you know sentiment of why you would want to take that leap of faith with Dan that they've leveraged really well so it's it's such an important thing to keep in mind for for people.

I got to have the Viper guy back on the podcast it's such a cool business it takes it takes Dan yeah having you don't think of it as a sexy niche but it's this you know it's it's just every workshop in America you know once one of these chairs now the other thing for his angle you can be like used by Tesla and NASA and you know the defense department or whoever they have these because I know that they have those big enterprise clients as well. There they're so like

they're everywhere and if you look at their story page I think it was their dad was like their

“family made the first Viper chair and you know that's how it starts like you look at Viper now and”

you think oh like look at all these licensing opportunities they have and you see the Viper now as it is today but if you look at that story and you think about the sort of like core of where

it started they have this very compelling entrepreneurial a first-hand problem like they have like

a proprietary passion in this space right that creates like if you use that ingredients properly you can create a really really compelling prospecting ad that looks way different than you know a more utility forward list of why their chair is better than the next best chair right and for someone like Viper and having all those tools in their belt basically that's how you know I don't even I don't know what adds their end at the beginning obviously but

it's more just you look at what they could have ran and if I wanted to separate myself from you know every other like shop chair advertiser at the time I'm for ten and a ten ten ten times I'm leaning on the sort of story of it like why this thing exists in the first place and then after you you you've been introduced to us from that then comes the utility cell it's just utility utility first is just a shouting match right like it's it's like the most

difficult strategy to make work just listing the practical reasons your product is a good product it's just every single advertiser is saying this the exact same things it's good point too

“and I and I think you would both those examples Marin and Viper are both like that was one of the”

questions I was going to ask you okay you're working with these early stage brands you're helping them find product market fit with these with this circumstance testing whatever how big

you know how they're going to scale they're running the same playbook so yeah I mean I will say

I I don't know what playbook if you're never running now and I there's there's certainly

you know if you look at their ads they're not they aren't these b-roll humble beginnings

“sort of gratitude angle tactics that I've talked about in this pod I think it's more just”

you can see how this matures right and when you have market penetration and awareness there's certain things that you you know advantages that come with that but you know through the stages of growth right if you're a brand advertising to open United States like that's your prospecting pool you know there are so many layers of growth if you have a compelling story and a product that's actually a good product that you use yourself and you feel that I just if we get it in

people's hands then they understand that's really who this is for where if you if you have the luxury of being a legitimate brand with a really good product you can run this playbook where you say okay like I'm I'm not gonna I'm not gonna waste our resources trying to compete in the shutting match with the rest of the crowd I'm just going to tell this story and talk about the things that are unique to this brand in a compelling way that really only we can say or that

the people who are walking the lot can say and sometimes that's big numbers it's like numbers of units sold it's the amount of stores you're in obviously like those are easy ways to do it but

sometimes it's just like little things it's you know it's your first farmers market it's

when you upgrade facilities it's your first you know first higher or you quit your job and you're doing this full-time now you can scale it down so so small to we've done we've worked on angles with this where you're talking about your first sale your first customer you know I mean so it's kind of like you can scale it literally all the way down to week number one of the business existing and then all the way up to mature ginormous you come and and retail brand as

as well interesting and then and so in this example roughly like where it's you're sort of competing on you know yelling into the void about features and then switch to finding this angle that sort of works what kind of like is it it's just obvious when you see the numbers you're seeing like

“yeah like day and night yes it doesn't it doesn't I mean because like the the truth is is you have to”

you have to have something right like this isn't a tactic for a dropshipping brand that's just trying to make money right like you have to have a story to tell and and sort of there needs to be that sort of soul behind the business in the first place so if those ingredients are in place right this should work for you and and doesn't necessarily mean it's going to like triple your return on ads been overnight but it has the capacity to be dramatically different

then your status quo traditional ads and so in the in the case of this supplement brand traditional supplement ads we're talking about the efficacy of you know using this product consistently and results and probably sounded very similar to a lot of the supplement brands that

“you know ads that that are out there and you know I think we're literally doubled return on”

ads bend and and then what I ended up what I'm not actually happening was return on that's been ended up sort of stabilizing close to what it was at before but we were able to literally scale budgets from 100 bucks a day to 800 bucks a day and we're somewhere in the 700 to 800 bucks a day range now where it's more just the success that those ads have in a cold prospecting audience is just meaningfully more scalable than those more tactical pieces we had before and it's

literally sometimes night and day where you know you can you can you can also just tell by the I test like these ads don't look like a typical product forward ad right sometimes it's literally semi blurry photo of the founder in the garage holding the prototype that it's it's very dramatically different looking and feeling ads so one that's the case that also has the capacity to have dramatically different outcomes on on the performance piece and when we're talking about cold

prospecting right like this is it's your these people have never heard of you before and so this is

a more like I just feel like um brands with stories stories to tell when they when they'd lead with this sort of thing it it just it just sort of fits sometimes and so it has the capacity to be really

but doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work for everyone or it's going to work right away either

“right like sometimes you have to tweak the story or you have a big number but it's not really”

translating well so you choose sort of a different way of framing it like it's it's not it's not without work right this isn't like a you know you still have to sort of figure it out and find tune it it's supposed to be a very authentic thing it's supposed to be what makes you special is a brand it's sometimes you don't have like a uh a gadget or or a obvious thing to be the the

thing you're known for the thing that makes you stand out but you still have this incredible product

and this is the playbook I would recommend anyone in those situations doing where it's implying the sort of um novelty or or quality of your product and sort of um removing yourself from the shouting match about why your product is the best when that's what literally every single other competitor is also saying 100%. This reminds me of we did a hot seat with our friend Matthew goal at Santa Via in Las Vegas a couple years ago and we looked at their landing page and

their landing page was a lot about the technology of what separated their product like what made their product different and what it was but we sort of like you got to focus on the why more like why you know and focus on like what people's lives are like once they have this product in their life and like there's all these other things around the what that allow you to get out of the shopping or the the shouting match you know match and connect on a more emotional level I guess right

totally and maybe one of the things I I'll leave you with is the the one of the most classic examples of this is Dragons Den and I think I think Dragons Den is sort of uh Dragons and

“captures this angle very very well in the sense that in order to be on Dragons Den you must”

have something right because like they have to they have to pick people you know like it's curated not everyone that's just going to Dragons Den and you know Dragons Den has that why a lot of the time where it's like this is me and my founder this is why we created this product right exactly this sort of you know this is where where it started this is where we are now like a lot of there's a lot of similarities with sort of what Dragons Den is it's like a as like a premise

and for friends that have been on Dragons Den we've we've made it work both ways for the ones that

get deals it's you literally run an ad from that's basically content of them you know in the

Dan are doing their pitch and it's like from this humble beginning to getting a deal on Dragons Den we've done the opposite where they leave without a deal and you're basically running the angle of find out how this brand is now referred to is like the one that got away from Dragons Den and like it was a miss on the Dragons part to not you know making investment with them and either way like part of this too is just all of the things that I mentioned where humble beginnings humanizing

the brand telling a compelling story but it's also just the sort of entrepreneurial spirit sometimes where people want to feel like they're participating in brands and supporting brands that are being run by people taking risks and doing this because they love it or doing this because it means something to them and that's a lot more exciting than just buying from a faceless recognizable sort of you know bigger brand or like you know a more well-known competitor

so that there's so much that goes into it and it is a more like tactical framework right like it's not necessarily going to work for everyone but it can be super super powerful

beautiful Liam thanks for coming on as always as your website up yet at Marleback oh man

it's it's coming soon it's coming soon I'm gonna make you one on clawed and it's gonna be amazing but for now if people want to work with the Marleback team and figure out your their circumstance by which they can scale their ads what do you recommend people just sort of fill out a form on the pilot house website email you directly what do you think they can just email us yeah so Liam

“at Marleback dot co and Nate at Marleback dot co that's probably the easiest if you want to”

head up pilot house you know you can find us that way too but yeah I know I know Black Friday is right around the corner so it's it's a busy busy time of the year for folks nice well we'll check back in with you closer to Black Friday and get some some updates but thanks for coming on thank you man thanks so much for listening to today's episode if you're not a subscriber to our newsletter you can do that right now at direct to consumer all one word dot co I'm Eric Dick and this has

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