Jordan Belfort: Sales, Redemption, and Building an Extraordinary Life

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So I'd say probably seven or eight years I wanted to have this man on the show. I did his show like a million years ago. And I'm going to tell you guys something. I don't know if it surprises the right word, but pleasantly happy. I guess I liked him so much personally when I met him, maybe a little bit different than

his character in the movie, you know, like I really, really enjoyed his company. And I consider and probably the best sales trainer there is going in the world today. Number one, he does a whole bunch of other things too, but his style and the way he teaches sales is probably what I'm most aligned with. But I really enjoyed his company.

“And I think you're going to enjoy his company today as well because we're going to have”

a little bit of a different conversation than you've probably seen him on other podcasts.

So here's what he has, he's the wolf of Wall Street.

That's how you really know him. But I know him was like a really good man and a great great sales trainer, super talented, Jordan Belfort, welcome to the show. I just very nice said, and I feel the same about you, obviously, on my podcast a million years ago.

And it was one of my best, you know, performance podcasts. I don't do it. I'm so busy right now. I haven't even done podcasts in a couple of years, but you were great and so it's great to be back, you know?

Yeah, it's great to be with you brother. So, you know, I want to, you've been on every podcast. I want to have a little bit of a different conversation with you and do stuff that like, it's hard for guy at your stature and your level for people when they listen to you to like relate to the story at all, right?

Like it's one of the great stories of all time. But one of the theories I have about what holds people back is they get attached to a story about themselves, something that happened when they were a kid or their divorce or a business setback. They get attached to a story and then, or who they believe they are.

And then it almost just, it reconfirms the story over and over again in their life.

“And in your case, that one window of your life is like the story, right?”

And it's how everybody knows you. To some extent, I know it was a great thing because you got notoriety from it. But I have to think there's a part of it's like, all right, I was like, I was young. Like, I'm a different human being now. How did you break out of that?

Like, how did you change the narrative of this is who you are in your life? And I know you probably don't get asked that a lot or if ever, but I'm curious because I think people listening are attached to this story and they got to change the narrative. It's a good question.

I mean, the start as I would say that I personally, in my own mind, never had an issue with like

breaking out of that. Like, I knew I wasn't that guy anymore. And I think that's because that wasn't the guy I was when I started. And so, you know, it wasn't like I had to find some new person. It was more about rediscovering the person I was before I viewed off course and went

hard while. And, you know, and listen, I never want to minimize what I did. But the fact is, I was on Wall Street. And, you know, that goes down on Wall Street. Like, what I did is nothing in compared to what happened during the GFC, the global financial

crisis, where like, you know, Goldman Bankrupted Iceland. And then, you know, I mean, I mean, I'm not trying to say two rights, you know, two wrongs make a right. My minimizing. But it wasn't like, you know, after the GFC, it was like, ah, you see, I mean, I would

kind of insane. I'm like, guys, you know, and I deserve to go to jail. I made mistakes. I, you know, you know, I manipulated and stopped. Yeah, I'm not trying to minimize that.

So, but my own mind was like, I'm like, I'm a criminal.

I was never gotten trouble in my life.

I come from a family. No one ever got in trouble. My parents are the most honest by that. They rest of the pieces, audits by moms, you know, the oldest woman in New York state to pass the bar.

She was a CPA back in the 50s when, you know, women were not in the workplace like that. She was in the city at a big, you know, the big, you know, the eight back then now, so I can buy the big three or four accounting for. Yeah. So, it wasn't like this thing.

I'm like, okay, I have to learn to be a better person. It's more like, wow, you know, I really took a left-turn album, quirky, and, you know, and

No, and I think that's really what what really got corrupted in the sense of putting a value on money above everything else, like how much kind of you make more of that question you ask yourself. How do you make more versus how do I give more value to people?

Because the bottom line is business and making money the right way is simply about knowing

how to monetize value. If you have something valuable that helps people, you can get rich and the more people you help the rich and you're going to get, if you know the rules of business. So like, so those, and those rules, I do know quite well, and I learned a lot of them from failing.

I learned them from my failures and I learned them from my successes, but more from my failures

“by the way, than my successes, you know, that's how you learn and you grow and, of course,”

back in my day, there was no internet that war no courts, there weren't really mentors like there are today. So, you had a thing you really want to f*** out on your own, you're not on entrepreneurship course. There are some great mentors out there, teachers, well, you're one of them, right?

There's some great people, right? So I think for me, it wasn't so much about having to discover a new person, but to rediscover the old person. Now changing people's minds about you, that's a different side of the story. So, I mean, if you talk about self belief, I didn't have an issue with that.

I knew where I'd never get in trouble again, and I veered away from anything that could even possibly get me in trouble, right? You know, I don't listen.

I could have launched a mean coin 10 times and made $30, $500 million never did, could have

launched NFTs never did. All the things that I knew I could make quick hits, and I always had this idea, well, you know, if I make a ton of money, someone else losing money is a result of me making money and if that's what's gonna happen, I'm not into it. I've done, I've been down that road before, and it doesn't feel good.

That's we have enough money right now. I don't need to do that, and I would never sacrifice my ethics that way, because it doesn't end well, and you don't feel good after anyway. So those are sort of like the rules that I live by right now, and it's cost me a lot of opportunity.

I could have made a lot more money than I have, but I didn't launch a coin, I didn't do an NFT. I didn't engage it any of that nonsense.

“And I think I'm better off for at least inside.”

Maybe my back income doesn't have as many zeroes as it could have had, but it has enough zeroes to be to live with the life I want. To say that, you got enough zeros. I have this theory lately, and I'm really curious, you and I could speak to this. I think at our age, too, and this is not something you'd hear on like most motivation or

self-help or business podcasts, but it's something I want to ask you about. So if you look at like climbing the ladder of life, right, like when you're young and you don't have a lot of responsibilities in single, I think every wrong for the most part, if you do it ethically, is worth whatever the trade-off is to climb higher, right?

This is, I've always wanted to ask you this since we met, but there is a point in my opinion

as I've gotten older that these extra rungs and this may not affect everybody listening today, but it will at some point hopefully in your life, where you've climbed pretty high, and you do have some zeros in your bank account now, maybe you got a little notoriety. No one ever tells you, it's worth evaluating the trade-off for the next run, right? It really is, it's some point on the climb in my opinion, you do need to start to evaluate,

how's this affecting my health, my mental health, my relationships, no one ever talks about this, and I started climbing, you know, at a TV show with NBC, and eventually I was like, I don't know if this next run I'm grabbing for is worth the trade-off in the climb, and I've kind of observed that with you, like you got all this, you got hot, I mean, you are hot, like a lot of notoriety, but also know you're kind of like a romantic

dude, like you'd love your relationships, you love the significant person in your life, like, did you do that at some point, what would your advice be to someone, like climb your tail off now, but at some point, you got to start looking at this stuff, right? Sure, I mean, obviously, like, you know, listen, you know, if you're still acting the same way when you're in your 50s, as you are when you're in your 20s, or you're still asking

yourself the same questions, and you haven't really lived, you haven't grown, you have a real issue, right? And I think for someone who's in there 20s, or the 30s, that is a time when you want to actually literally go out there and you want to focus on sticking your claim and making, you know,

“a ton of money, because I think money matters, it is important now, then that depends”

on your value value money, everyone has their own number, their own standards of what they want to make, so, you know, as always, you're congruent with what your belief systems are about, you know, I want to be super rich, but I don't really want to put it in the evidence, well, that's not going to really end that well, right? But for people like us who had a desire to really be successful and make a lot of living

great life and, actually, right, there's a time when you've got to, you know, put the hours in. Now, just to be clear, I still put the hours in, you know, because I love it.

Right, everybody, just so you know, this is a Saturday, he and I are doing this on a Saturday morning, so most people are cooling on the weekends, he and I are still crushing it. So keep that in context. But I was coding since seven a.m. this morning, right, I've been coding since seven. I, you know, I code M&A, I company, and I've been coding and debugging, I did it 17

hours. I mean, I got, I'm on a fucking chair. But to me, like, it's not work, I enjoy it, it keeps me stimulated, I would go crazy by just sat there. Right, but I still worked out yesterday, you know, my wife is here, it's, it's balanced.

So, so, but here's the point that I think you really make, which is a good one. And, you know, there, there's a difference when you're saying, you know, I want to climb higher and make more, you know, the most money I ever made is not when I'm working the hardest necessarily, it's like, you know, like, if you have a good business and you

don't get the right way, you know, whether you make a million, a 10 million, a 100 million

is really more function of how well the business was structured, what industry you're in. And, because, you know, in the timing to buy the way, but the point is, really have to work harder to make a lot more money. It's really some of it is, some of it is locked by the way, some people get lucky. And when I say, "Look, it's not, like, oh, I just know there's a lot of mass of power,

but you just, we're in the right place, right time, then you have the right idea, you execute it, right?" So, you can work your ass of it, make $200,000 a year in wanting to screw you to go work your ass of it another one, make 10 or then cash out for $50 billion dollars. So, it's not so much that it's like, I have to work harder than make more.

But, then you're talking about, it's like chasing after every opportunity. Exactly, yes.

“You know, like, you have to, like, you want to be more significant, and then you find out”

that all you're doing, basically, is executing on ideas and you're not really living a

life. That's a very different thing. Correct. Yeah. And I think people should know that.

I'm big on it, right? Now, because I don't think most successful people will warn you about it. And I just think, like, in my case, like, there's a point where you got to evaluate what you are trading for the pursuit of significance money, whatever it is. And, by the way, I totally agree with you.

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I was thinking about the other day, someone I knew you were coming on, and actually my son, who reached out to you to help you with your golf game a little bit, I was sort of a brother, we got to play together, you'll feel much better about your game. But my son will tell you this, I really liked him. Like I really liked him, like I think had it been at a different time of both our lives.

He and I had been very close friends. I just enjoyed his company, something about our energy that was very similar. And I said to Max, my son, I said, I liked him like instantly, like shook his hand and liked him. And Max said, Dad, you got to ask him about this, because part of the things he's been

talking about lately is like in sales is like the first four seconds. We talk about that for a second, so everybody gets that, because I think most people think I'm not in sales. Yes, you are. Right.

Well, I mean, of course, and I think, you know, sometimes you know, there's someone

similar to you, right? And also, you know, one of the things that's a benefit to me or a detriment to some people, I guess, is that everyone knows me pretty well, my reputation, so you could

“love me or hate me, whatever, if you want to hate me, what I did 38 years ago, go ahead”

and I'm happy to see you know, the haters and private engagement is more than the lovers anyway, but either way, so I, you know, for me, it's pretty like I go in with a lot of sort of, you know, backstory and a lot of credentials already loaded in and you do the same, okay, you do the same, right? But there is this idea and it's very true in terms of this initial impression and it's

just, you know, literally and it's, it's very simple and it's learnable in terms of how you make eye contact, how you shake and it's somebody, how close do you stand, you know, what's your morality like, you're like, hey, nice to meet you, you know, but it's a simple

stuff that's learnable, but it's powerful and then what happens though, and I think what

people don't realize is that you said that to your son, like, I like the guy instantly, but if I would have revealed myself to be a second number eight or second number 30 or in minute number five, you would have said you're in the guy's an idiot, I hated him the second, I hated him. All those first few seconds, there was advice with the opportunity to improve that your first impression was correct. So yeah, it's not like you make a good

first impression and now I'm going to ask all the first impression opens up the ability to get the deeper rapport, rapport is not a constant, right? But one of these people to be very, very aware of is that, you know, you're one stupid statement away from revealing

“yourself to be, you know, a novice or an asshole, and you have to really, when you're”

especially in a business setting, now when your friends is very different, you know,

you just want to be you, although like again, today we said, you meet someone the first time

a girl or a guy, I said my representative, it's like my best self. Hey, everybody, right, that's right, you know, you do, but I, I also think like today 30 years ago, a lot of the population weren't good at communication and selling, but like now it's at an all-time low because of the internet because kids are in their phones. I mean, people's interpers, I was here in the hotel last night, and a bunch of young people got in the elevator with me a couple

of a new who I was, and I couldn't get any of them to even look me in the eye or introduce themselves. And that's not a, that's not a global criticism. But like, he has this thing you guys called the straight line system that I think you all should go get if you'd want to learn to sell and communicate better. Because you get into the real stuff. And I want to just, let's just give everyone a little flavor here. One thing you're great at, like

great at when you speak on stage right now today, one on one is your tonality, your tonality, you know how to use inflection in your voice, you know how one tone is to command respect than you're in a 30 figure. And other ones like, hey, these things up, you know, you do that very well, speak to that a little bit. Yeah, well, I mean, I think that that's obviously, you know, one of the things I'm known for is teaching tonality. And there's some people

that, naturally, I'm really, really great tonality. I want to make sure, right? You weren't, you know, there's some, but most people don't really have that gift. I'm much less naturally, but again, the good news is it's an entiling, they're an almost skilled. And do you know the way you learn it is my first, you know, the first thing is understanding like, okay, well, what are they, you know, what, you know, you don't know what you don't know, right? You're unconsciously

incompetent, right? And then the idea is, like, someone raises, like, me raises your awareness and become consciously incompetent, like he's like, oh my god. So wait, I know, he sounds so

good for a reason, like when Leo and the movie, Leo sat that's so amazing on the phone and

when he gave the speeches, right? Well, he didn't sound like that before I met him when he, we picked up a phone to try to sell stock. I trained him. And obviously, he's an immensely talented and talented individual. Wow, okay, until he was trained, he didn't any, of course, he's smart enough to know, show me how to do this. What is the system? How do you sound the way you sound, right? And you know, I broke it down from into these core tonalities,

and I showed him here is where you lower your voices and you speak with certainty here, the just he even made the gestures I made, everything. So it's a combination of body language, tonality. And the thing is, once you become aware of these, there are a tonalities. Well, the first step that is to say, okay, well, in his sale, you know, let me granarily, if I had a script,

“then you thought with a script, right? Because that's the only way to learn it. Where would I speak,”

with certainty? Where would I lower my voice? Where would I, with sincerity? And empathy? Where would I say, like sound fair enough? You're reasonable, unreasonable, right? Where would I say, no, you know, this is going to damage, it's you like the idea. Like hypothetically, it's old, right? Now, when you actually have that broken down, if you want to applaud and you actually practice that,

Very quickly, you're brain rewires itself, and you no longer need to think about it. Your brain's not in the more you practice, even if you're not warm with the gift, all right? Even if you're terrible at it, you can get confident that it's very quickly. It's like if the script out everything you say to the rest of your life, once you start getting into the rhythm and your brain starts to understand, it will naturally start applying

tonalities of the right points in conversation. And that's the key. So the first step is understanding what they are. The next step is saying, where do you say them, then how do I say it, and then actually technically applying it through practice and role playing? And then you're going to be clunky at first, of course, or exactly no one's perfect at first, right? The old adage, no kids walk, every kid walks, why will the first day fall down, but if there's a given

courage, I don't want to repeat, that's an old Tony Robinson story. Oh, it's true.

“But it's true. It's an old Tony's true, isn't it, right? But the point is that's how you learn.”

And I think some of the problems that is like this scared to look ridiculous, well, I guess, why that, you know, if you don't not look a little bit ridiculous,

it'll sound a bit, wouldn't in the beginning, well, you're never going to get perfect,

but it doesn't think long to get perfect. That's a perfect, it's worth it. The way you're all welcome, because this is stuff that you really don't, you watch people that you connect with, do these things well. And if you're not aware, if you're not conscious, it's like invisible why you connect with them, why they persuade you. Now you're learning from two persuasive people how to do it. Here's the other thing that you do really well. And it's

silence. So I've watched you speak on stage. We've actually not been back stage together, but we've been at many events where you're before me or after me in vice versa. And when I watch good stand-up comics, I watch good stage speakers. I watch great sales people. They have a different level of the utilization and comfort level with silence in a conversation, right? And this is like a nuanced, most people don't realize and it's just, I want them inside what you and I

would talk about. Talk about the idea of using or being comfortable with silence. Yeah, yeah, you call it uncomfortable silence isn't what happens. There's people that don't really communicate well. They feel the need to jump and build a vacuum. Yep, yep, yep, yeah. And obviously there's nothing wrong with silence, okay? But it even then I can say it, you know, especially in persuasion, right? You know, God gave you two ears and one mouth so listen twice as much as

you speak, right? But like that's kind of, you know, okay, and it's true. But when you speak, you want to say something that matters. And when you listen, you don't want to listen, like, the fuck hate you. It's what, wow, uh-huh, uh-huh, yep, uh-huh, this is a active listening, uh-huh, yep, not in your head. Okay, leaving back when someone's like, hmm, hmm, scratch your (beep) Ah, yep, oh, so it's just sort of like this communication when you're not speaking,

you're communicating all the time. What about also asking the second question? I just want

“to ask you about that. So to me, when I think someone's really listening to me,”

they've asked me a question and then I've answered it and then they'll ask like a clarification question or the next layered question. And then I'm like, oh, they're really connecting with me. Where's most people are like, I'm in sales now. I've learned to ask questions. And it's just like this robotic process of even podcasts like this. It's like robotic. Like they didn't even hear what you said. They're onto the next thing on their list, right? Where's like, I'm listening to

you. And there's a second and a third, it may be even a fourth question down the line. Right. So this is, well, it's funny you say it because it's like, it's like literally, like, then on Bulls Act. And so like, when I teach people, like, you know, the art of prospect and gathering intelligence, right? You know, one of the rules is you want to, you know, go from big picture

questions to smaller picture questions, less invasive questions to more. Like the first question

you ask someone, if you're trying to get someone to like, you know, invest in the stop walk. I mean, how much money have in the back? What's the fuck yourself? It's like, so you know, how long have you been in the mall? How long have you been in the market for? What do you typically like, you know, like, tech, you're like, questions, anybody with it's as four or five of those. And by the way, what do you happen? Let me typically put into an idea, you know,

ballpark. Yeah. And how much have in the market? Oh, to tell you, right? Right. All these rules, but one of the key rules and there's two sizes is I'm going to take it even to lay a deeper, right? Absolutely. It's about keeping a logical progression. Okay. And asking these follow ups like unpacking, not ping-ponging. Someone asked you a question that

“give you get an answer. If that answer dictates a follow up, you need to follow up on that”

question and dig a bit deeper to get to the next layer. And in addition to that, if you want to really impress people is almost when someone says something and you should be an expert in what you're selling in the field, whatever problem you're trying to solve, you want to clarify what they

and then if you really have some insights of industry insight, even explain it more to them, like, exactly boom, then they're like, holy f***, this guy gets it. He knows. Wow. And you can really impress people. So you're not only following up with more questions, you're also clarifying what they said and even maybe getting insight, not***. It's like it's something even the ability to show tidbits of industry knowledge. It keeps building you up and everyone

is an expert. He's a real expert versus being a novice or just like you're someone in the middle. So yeah, keeping this logical flow, make me show that you ask follow ups with what don't ask them if they're nothing to follow up. But when they're obviously there, you want to ask them and you also want to make sure that you are communicating back to them, that you understand them, and that maybe you either adding value right from there by clarifying their statements and adding

“on even other problems then. And you saw you might also be then running into this, correct?”

No ****. Yeah, exactly. So last sales question. This is so good. I wasn't going to ask you this one, but since you said it, you said expert, right? What about just the mindset of your approach? Do you think if I'm in sales or anything, I sell cars? I sell, I own a dry cleaners in you walk in. It doesn't matter. That's still a form of sales, right? Do you believe that the mindset I should have if I'm a realtor, let's just say? I assume the mindset of an authority in that industry,

like I think this escapes most people. I'm like, I don't know if this person really is any good

it. Like I'm going to have knee surgery. I don't want it to be your third one. Like I want it.

I want a great knee surgeon, right? So do you think as a sales person, one of the key things is to assume the role, the mindset, the posture of an authority, like just being in authority in your industry or do you not buy into that? No, you, it's an absolute must. And I'll tell you why. And it's one of the things that holds a lot of people back, especially in the beginning, because the key is, is that human beings intuitively, we learn. We know what experts are supposed to look like

and sound like. And we also know what they don't look like and sound like. We know that. And we've been exposed to this as we're very small, and we're very young, though, for a sick appearance to the doctor. And we notice how the doctor dressed a certain way, acted a certain way, even our own parents deferred to the doctor. He had diplomas on the wall and everyone treated it with respect, because he had gone to school for many years and learned everything that was

thrown by beating sick people better. And when you went into city doctor, what did he do? He started asking you questions and examining you. And when he asked you a question, you didn't say, well, what do you want to know that doc? How about that? No, you answered his questions honestly and forthrightly, why? Because he's an expert. And then he asked you a series of questions. And then when he was done, he didn't say, okay, have a nice day. You're like, what? He's

okay, well, based on what you said, let me tell you, here's what's going on. He tells you what's

happening, then gives you a prescription, if necessary, a procedure, whatever it might be,

“he gives you the solution. So we look at, and that's how we've been trained all life when we”

were growing up, if we wanted to learn to sport up parents with a higher as a coach who was an expert, a tutor when we got older into business. If you had problems, you would acquire a lawyer, an account, we seek out experts to help us solve our problems and eliminate pain points. And when we're in the presence of someone, and here's the important thing that we believe to be an expert, we defer, we allow the expert to control the flow of the encounter. That's what we do. When we are

in the presence of somebody believes that not as we will try to control the encounter and cut them

off, take them out in the Pluto, and all bad things start to happen. Now, the problem is,

is that when people start in an industry and start in sales, they feel like, well, I'm not an expert selling cars yet, so I really can't sound like one until I'm a, okay, I put me on a call, I'll sound like a f**k expert, like in the minutes. Now, believe me, the night before I be up for 12 hours, learning everything about cars, and I'm not saying to lie, I'm saying you want to actually act as if you better become an expert and close that, yeah, really quick. But there is

“absolutely nothing that you need to, you don't have to like pretend to be a novice, you can act like”

one before you're one, and then quickly close that knowledge yet. And conversely, I know a lot of people who was stone, cold, experts, and sound like novices, and they can sell the way out of a paper bed. Yeah. So it's not so much being when it's sounding like one, but then, of course, you want to become one and not, you don't want this to be like just the facade, you need to be an expert. You guys, this is so good. I gotta tell you, like, I wanted you or not, but I just want to remind

the audience of this, I'll tell you this too. My dad was an alcoholic drug addict till I was 15,

becomes your sponsor or whatever it is. The guy who helped my dad get sober was sober himself 31 days. That's it. So he was not an expert, but what he was, is he cared? What he did is he sounded like an expert, but he wasn't one. So a lot of you think that you've gotta have, you know, you gotta be the best in the world. What you do, yeah, you do eventually, but in the interim, you can still make a lot of sales. You can still help a lot of people. One of those sales on

getting sober was my dad. From a dude who was only sober 31 days, and I'm sitting here with all of you

“guys today, I think in large part because that did happen with my dad. So just remember the ripple”

effect of helping one person even in the beginning of your career. Now here's what is the best part

about everything Jordan teaches, number going to shift gears to AI in a second, but which is ethical selling. And I think just because of the Wolf of Wall Street, like if they didn't encounter you the last trillion years since the movie right and senior work, which there are people here today that haven't, we're not talking about manipulation here. We're not talking about trying to get somebody to do something that's not good for them. I just want you to speak to that because when any time in the

world now where you start teaching people how to persuade or communicate, even like how I was raised, ah, I got it. It's all like slight a hand and trickeration over here. But that's not what we're talking about. Because there's a few parts that's so clearly that's not it. And we say like, you know, you're not using the, you know, the straight line system. You're not using it because you want to

“get people to do things they shouldn't do or buy things they shouldn't buy. It's the opposite, right?”

It's about getting people to overcome these internal and are mostly irrational barriers they have to taking action to get things they actually should get and solve problems they need to solve. There are some people, for example, that have what I call a very high action threshold. Their belief systems are experiences are such the way they're just wired. Makes it very difficult for them to make a decision. They will torture themselves that painfully slow when it comes to decisions. And they hate sales

people. They don't want to be persuaded and very often those people go through life, lacking a lot of things they need. And don't have their problem solved. My dad was one of them. I love me, he rest of me is a wonderful dad. But he hated sales people, which is pretty funny, right? And my ronic, at least. Ironically, oh, it was just that like people like that, you know, well, how did they buy shit? I get fed that phone. Well, they buy things when they're desperate. And they

could just when the pain gets so bad, then suddenly that action threshold drops, right? So like, but once they buy from someone, that's their guy. Like my dad, he had his car guy. Like Vinnie, it was a, it was Car Guy. Vinnie, it's a no-go station. The local, like Vinnie, no one's touching my dad's dodge dart, but Vinnie, like Vinnie, and so Ferrari said, "Max, I'm going to fix your car before you, I'm going to make it." And so don't touch my car, okay? All three Vinnie,

and that was my dad with everything. Now, I'll tell you a great story, though, you know, when I was about 12, and he was like that with everything, he had a car guy, he had a shit guy. He had one barber, every one guy for everything. And they could be ripping his eyeballs out, overchard up,

“Vinnie's my guy, and that's that, right? Because they don't want, that's how it happens, right?”

New York, the Florida, and New York, the Williamsburg, Florida, he was right. Whatever it was, when we were like three hours outside of New York, on the way down south, and we're like, like, not great part of the country, right? Like, you know, Hillbilly, and like, all those car overheats, it's myself, my mother, my brother, my dad's driving the Dodge Dart, right? And, um, folks thought coming out of the radiator, and it's like 530 p.m. in the suns,

like, start the set room, and you know, my dad did. He went to the first gas station he could find.

It said, "Fix my car. I don't care how much it costs." It could have said, the name of the gas station you could have been doing, cheat him, and out, and he still would have done it, because at that point, I'm worried he was feeling caused an action threshold to drop the zero, just fix it. I don't care. Right now, in persuasion, we can use that to help people, like my father make great decisions, that they should be making by, you know, by uncovering what are their pain points? What are

they really worried about? What is that deep worry that rests at the base of the skull and keeps him up all my long, and the way you get that, uncover that is through intelligence gathering, by asking questions and thinking, deeper, as you were speaking about, and what you had though, that information, you don't want to say, "Oh, I saw a promise up. No, I'm not just saying, I'm going to amplify that." Let him really

understand what this coaxing, what the problem is, what's holding them back, and then you want to

reserve that, and later on, in the conversation when they're really in that point, they want to get the decision, you say, "Listen, let me ask you this, and you reintroduce that pain, let them understand what's truly seconds, very powerful." Masterclass, everybody, you're welcome, you're welcome.

doing a podcast, so I'm like, "This is going to download like crazy," because the content is so good.

Okay, I want to do everything. You do all this shit automatically. You are a great communicator, right? So what happens is all the things I'm saying are part of the straight lines. It's a system, but what happens is great, communicator is great closes. They do all this. They do it unconsciously. Yeah, and some of it, by the way, some of it is actually consciously. And so also, when you're a professional communicator, and you hear someone speak truthfully about how to do it correctly,

it's a validation. You're like, "I do that. That's true for me." I see all this online guru stuff from these sales trainers, and I'm like, "That's just crap. That's not how it works.

“That's not the real world." And by the way, that's not even ethical. What you're teaching. And so that's why”

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fees or charges. You're talking about, you know, I resonate with so much. So a little bit of a name drop or thing. I want to shift a little bit because we're only got one up too much time. But you're doing stuff in AI right now. You're telling me off-camera where you got some huge success in that lane already as well. So it's an ironic Leo thing. I was sitting in an event about five months ago and Leo was sitting next to me who played you in the movie. And by the way, he's not

a talkative dude until you get the ball rolling a little bit. It's a great guy. He's a great guy. I got to know him that night. He's a terrific guy. I don't want you to know me. Of course I did. How do you think I bridge the gap? I dropped your name. Of course I did. And there's another actor there that's actually a really good friend of mine which also helped. But anyway, I asked them both. I said what's different in the movie business than say five ten years ago. And like they both,

their heads almost dropped. Like, oh bro, like streaming's changed everything. Number one, the way we shoot the movies. But he said I said what's the biggest one he goes. It's just starting but it's AI. And he goes, the way movies are going to be shot, what budgets we're going to be allowed to do, how scenes are set up, how writing is going to be done. It's a real tsunami coming to our industry. And I don't know where it's all going to land. And then I started to think about

what we do, meaning anything sales related, anything anyone's doing. You know, like I certainly

“wouldn't mind being a plumber right now because I think those dudes are safe. But like what are your”

overall thoughts or advice to people listening about this thing coming our way called AI when it comes to sales. But also just, you know, entrepreneurship in general, you've obviously decided to get out in front of this cram course, you're thought it, when I met you, if I said you'd be coding the morning that we're doing my podcast someday, you'd be like, what the heck is coding? Like there's no way. So take them through kind of what you've done to get in front of it and your thoughts on it.

I got into artificial intelligence, maybe he was about two years ago, a little bit more maybe, right? We run people's sales operations and advise them, right? And they were trying to, in some company that forgot the name that maybe was AI or something. Oh, we have a sales agent that's

the revenue. Someone else got pitched at the company and then said it to me, I said, well let me

“hear it and it sucked. That I went looking at the pricing that pricing was ridiculous back then,”

right? But it was not good. The latency was terrible and you could fool it in two seconds. It would say stupid, right? But that was the first like shot across the bow and maybe it was almost two and a half years ago. Maybe, maybe even three, wow. So it was early, right? It was before it was then chat,

GBT, it was like three point. Oh, maybe. It was like all right. But I'm always very nice today,

I actually made it rule us and it's not going to kill me. Oh, my god. Right. Right. A friend of one, good friend of mine, a top VC, Shervin, Pishivar and I was good friend of Rappa. Then I told this and I said, you know, if we could build an AI, imagine me, imagine a bike you have a digital twin Jordan that knew everything and we could teach this thing to sell like me. That would be freaking amazing. And so began this venture. Okay. We first funded ourselves and I spent about a year

just wasting money because I had to learn about technology, right? And engineers and good ones and bad ones. But I went on a massive crash course. I'm really technical. I am so technical. You wouldn't even believe it. How do I am about artificial intelligence, coding, and architecture, and so I had to because I'm a believer in any business you're in. If you don't know that business, you don't know the interest is you are going to get slammed. Your people will lie to you,

but they need to, but they just get, you can't tell fact from Pishivar, right? And then I thought lucky and it says that the tailwinds and I knew that the AI would improve. The models would improve.

That was obvious to me. So I always built it from the sense that I'm not worried. I'm not

building this application for what they are I can do today. I'm trying to catch this when it's ready in a year and a half from now. So I didn't go into this trying to build a sales agent that can get on a telephone call and qualify a lead. That didn't do that. I had that and we do that. We have a cup of it. It does that. That's a sharp child's play. It's nothing, right? Okay. Doing two seconds, right? I said, I want to build an AI that can freaking close a complex sale carry on a

conversation over two months of it has to do with callbacks texting, email, persistent memory, an army channel agent that can actually handle a conversation complex insurance, financial services, mortgages, and then it really close like me. But it's still people don't think it's still. We do it. Okay. And it's still not quite ready just to be clear. It's like another two months away from full enterprise ready. So we're still in stealth mode because it's very difficult to do that. Like what I'm

saying, it's not like it is not, whatever you think about AI, these things are Einstein and

“Forest Gump at the same time. That's what they are. Okay. And you can't, that where people most”

mostly fall down with this stuff is the model is only one part of it. Okay. You need a very complex architecture around the model with persistent memory, state management routers that keep the model honest. It's all these different, is a very complex application. And what you have that architecture then you can start handling conversations that can run 30 minutes an hour. You can have a conversation that goes eight minutes. And you know, can you call me back at three o'clock this afternoon?

I got sure, no problem. And it remembers where you are, picks up where it left up and sends you a text in the middle. Calls you're back in a week, collects thought. So that's what I've been building with my team. But the plan is where, you know, we've already post revenue, but we're going to really launching now over the next 30 days big scaling. And then we're going to do a series day at the end of probably hopefully may or June. My partner's a massive player in the VC space. Maybe be

Uber, Airbnb, you know, Robin had a big player. So we'll probably have a great team, a great team

“that got 15 engineers full time. By the way, remember who's sun helped you with your golf clubs?”

Just what I'm saying. I want to know, that sounds good for you and sounds good for the world. Doesn't sound so good if I were in real estate or insurance though, right? What in your, what's your overall like 30,000 foot view? Look, let's be honest, like we also make money from people that are in the sales industry as well. But what would you say to somebody who's sitting they're going, oh, oh, you know, what do I do now? I'm in my car right now driving to my sales

appointment and I'm going to be replaced by a robot. Yeah. So here's what I would say. I give

Google so much credit and so much respect. Because that's the classic the other the innovators dilemma, right? In other words, they owns the search market. And if you're going to have AI suddenly making general search with ads obsolete or semi obsolete or not, you know, the first thing you want to do, which is true, right? Google would say, well, I'm not going to put AI into my search

what companies up with, they say, I'm holding on. I have to protect what I have not not going to innovate and move forward. I can't make myself obsolete and then someone else makes them obsolete. Okay. Now, I will say this. That right there, not interrupt you. That right there. All you entrepreneurs? That's a huge lesson. What he just said right there. Don't protect

“territory, try to remain, you know, protect yourself from being obsolete because that's how you”

become it. Ask blockbuster video when they had a chance to just scoop up Netflix for nine bucks. So just just stay in there. Okay. Frame it differently. If you don't disrupt yourself, someone else will disrupt you. Well, say it like that. Right? And so yet, yet, the search revenue is still booming.

Yeah. I know. But okay, this always going to be a need for salespeople. Always. Always. Now,

do I think things like Lee Jen is going to get commoditized. Yes. But they're, it's certainly are going to be AIs out there selling. It's very, very difficult to do. It is, I am telling you, it is to get an AIs or really have a sales conversation. They're not designed for that. And I'll tell you why. Because to be a great salesperson, you need to be in control of the conversation. And the way you get into control is by being perceived as an expert,

by being perceived as an expert on the bull shop enthusiastic. People will defer or allow you to control the flow of a conversation, which allows you to then to ask questions in a certain way, present in a certain way. And allows you to take what would otherwise be a chaotic

conversation that could go in a million directions and move it down the straight line. That's

the straight line system. Right? Nice design the opposite. You answer to a question. It gives you an answer to reactive. Yeah. Good point. And to be a great salesperson, you're going to be proactive. So it's very, very difficult to get on official intelligence to sell well. Really it requires a massive amount of architecture, prompting prompt engineering context, engineering, right? And but the point is like we are at this something called the singularity. Like what you can't

look past the horizon, the men horizon and say, I don't know what the f*** is going to happen in five years from now. But what I do know is this, but with nothing is certain, but with great certain thing is that a lot of the jobs that we have right now, yeah they're going to be replaced

“but there'll be more jobs created. And I think that there's going to be a shift. I think that's”

it's so much easier right now to be an entrepreneur. It is so much easier out of start businesses to do whatever you want to do, cheaply, effectively, efficiently. And you know AI can be a great

mentor, but the problem is they will tell you everything is good, which is really problematic.

In other words, when you, if you don't, collaborating with AI is an art. I collaborate with the AI of like multiple AIs that I am on these high, very high level plans. I'm on these all these pro level plans and I have APIs into them for unlimited usage, right, with with the highest level of intelligence. But if you don't, if you're not an expert yourself, it's going to tell you everything is good, every idea is perfect, blah, blah, blah, blah, it doesn't work out that way. But what I

can do is if you know what you're doing or at least have, if you're careful and you work with it and you learn that the art of essentially how do you prompt an AI, how do you actually keep it calling in the direction, right? How do you let it play devil's app, you know, even have two, one is one you say this and so on gave me this idea, it's a stupidest idea. Just tell me why this is not good, why is this the stupidest dumbest idea I've ever heard. And why ideas create the idea

if you help you, they're one saying how bad it is and then you've got to start to see the truth. Because you only have to tell you how good it is, they'll just tell you, after they'll find the statistics and if they don't exist, I'll make them up. The point that I'm making is this to get back the year for your question is that we'll some sales people will be replaced, yeah, for sure, and they'll be new sales jobs created that are probably even higher paying and other things like that.

“So, but you know, you can't live your life worrying about what's going to happen, you have to sit”

there and be on the edge of, you know, what's happening and disruption to get to happen. All right, speaking of living your life, this has been really tremendous, this would be my last question for you. But to speak, this is on living life in general, this is more like a broad question, but I want to step back because I want people just to hear from you. There's two ways to live your life to me. There's the decision to be just average and ordinary and exist,

which is what a lot of people settle into doing in their life. And then there's this other decision and a set of actions that go with it for life, which is what you've done. I mean, those of you that are on audio, you can't see this, but the view behind this man is like beautiful. He's chosen

life. I want to live greatly. I want to touch my potential. You know, I want to have a great

“life, rich of memories and friendships and all that. I'm just curious, like, if you'd speak to that,”

you know, why choose should everybody choose to go as corny as it sounds, man. Like we're two dudes now halfway through our life, probably, right, that have chosen to pursue our dreams in our life. And what's come with that is a lot of ups and downs, a lot of critics, a lot of crap, a lot of stress,

the amount of which most people will never understand, the amount of work, the amount of huge

lows and tremendous highs, sell me on why I should pursue that life if I'm listening to it today. Here's what I would say. Everyone has to have their own vision for their future. What they want. You know, I'm going to want to extreme mother Teresa. What was her, you know, what was her currency of value was helping people? She didn't care about money. It didn't matter at the heart. Money did not truly, it was not her value. Her value is how many people could I touch and

help and sue them heal, right? She's rich as, as, as, as, as, you know, on musk in her own world, right now, you have other people, you know, like you and I, I mean, like, listen, I'll tell you it is very simple. I've been a rich man and been extremely happy. I've been a rich man and been

very unhappy, very miserable. I've been poor and very miserable as well, but never once in my life,

since I'm an adult, have I been poor and happy? It is, it is a real issue. Now, I'm not saying

“you have to be the richest person in the world, but there's a certain amount of money you need to”

make. If you want to live a great life, if you want to really, you know, enjoy the finer things and really build up, go after your interest and have free time and have good medical care, a nice place to live, take care of your family, your children, donate to the places and the causes that you believe in and just have, fine, then it's going to be a certain amount of money you need to make. That number is up to you. It's different to what everybody, what I would say is this,

you've got to get first very clear on what your vision to the future is. Where do you want to be?

Where do you see yourself in five years? What life do you want? And then you better make sure that your desire, you have that vision, your stand, your work ethic is congruent with that. If you know, you have champagne, vision, and a bearder, work ethic, a bearder, standard, and the work out so well. All right, bottom line. So good. This has been such, I'm really glad we did it. This has been like a really great conversation. Thank you, by the way, for doing this today on a Saturday.

You guys, yeah, well, I want to see in person again. Take your money on the golf course. You guys go get straight line sales course, which is his course. He's also got a book called The Wolf of Investing, which could help you with the latter part that he just talked about. And share this episode, you guys. I bet you this is a side of Jordan, not all of you have heard or seen before,

“and that's what I want to do accomplished today. It's a side that I've seen in the one that I like.”

So Jordan, thanks, brother, who's great. All right, God bless you. Max out.