712: A New Kind of Christian Fundamentalism plus Bob Goff

reading of the Bible and conservative social values. They believed in things like a seven-day creation, the rapture, and prophecies about the return of Jesus in supporting the state of Israel. But new data shows that fewer evangelicals hold these traditional beliefs, but that doesn't mean fundamentalism is going away. Today, Caitlyn and I are joined by Mike Eary to discuss the changing definition of American Christian fundamentalism,

and why the older variety may have been better. Then I talk with Bob Goff about his new video series "A Journey with Jesus" about the Holy Land, and how he sustains his joy in these angry times. Also this week, why is Jen Z drinking less alcohol? We have a few fun announcements

before we jump into the show. First off, our live recording in Atlanta with La Craye is coming

“up on April 22nd. I'll be there along with Caitlyn and Phil. So if you want to meet us,”

hear from La Craye and be part of a live Holy Post podcast episode. Be sure to get your tickets before they're gone. You can get them at holypost.com/events. And for our Holy Post plus subscribers, we have some brand new episodes of MyHill to Die On, where we each give sometimes controversial hot takes on different topics. With Caitlyn and Phil wedding planning mode, we decided to do a wedding hills to die on. These are sure to be spicy. Again, those shows and much much more are only

available for Holy Post plus subscribers. So to find out how you can sign up, go to holypost.com. Here is episode 712. Hello everyone. Welcome back to the Holy Post. I'm Sky Jitani.

I am sitting in for Phil Visher because he's on vacation. Ooh. Somewhere nice. Somewhere warm.

Somewhere with his wife. Caitlyn chances with me. We're just Phil go on vacation. Do we know? We do know. I don't know if we should disclose this location because he might be

“exchanging in an undisclosed location. Yes. Okay. Fair. That's fair. And that is warm.”

It is warm. The voice you're hearing is our friend Mike Ere who's beaming in from where a Nashville area. Nashville. I was distracted by the Ohio State sign behind you. Not from Ohio. Thank you. He is from Ohio. Not coming to Ohio. But before we turned on the recording, we were we were talking about the fact that our alma mater, Miami University, from Oxford, Ohio, is in the NCAA tournament. That's right. With one loss, only one loss guy.

How's that feel? It feels really feel. I will say this though. I was doing some research. And Miami apparently their board just approved building a new basketball stadium. Did you see this? I did not see it because Millette Hall, the old basketball arena is getting. That's right. And they're going to build a new basketball stadium. But they're building it on Cookfield. They're going to get real Cookfield. No. Yes. No. I'm not happy about this.

The frozen tundra. Yeah. Come on. Okay. That hurts. That hurts. I love that it's so close to a bunch of dorms. But man, that's rough. There's no way that's big enough for a thing and parking. Oh, yeah. There's no way they're putting a hotel there. I mean, this is green space. This is

“precious green space in Oxford, Ohio that you need to preserve. No. Tell I say no.”

Sky. I just I want to know when they're going to approach you to be president of the university.

I'm always so I am all in for Skyrun. I've never, I've never, I've never dated. I've dated

him about many things in my life. I've never dated him. I'm about being a college president. Anywhere you've dreamed of being a president? I just a small tropical country. I didn't think. Perfect. All right. With that, let's hit the theme song. Your toast did Skyfield, Caitlyn and the whole leaf post. Skyfield, Caitlyn and the whole leaf post. And sometimes other people.

Holy Post disponsored by feeding America. We're called to care for the least of these, to love our neighbors. And even in a nation as wealthy as America, hunger is an issue for many. In food banks and food pantries, neighbors pack fresh food and dignity into every box. Moving food from farms to families through feeding America's nationwide network. So when that box reaches a home, it carries more than food. It carries a promise. That together,

we can make sure no one falls through the cracks. Feeding America, led by neighbors, give now to end hunger at feedingAmerica.org. Holy Post disponsored by Sundays for dogs. Once upon a time, there was a veterinarian and mom who got tired of seeing so-called premium dog food, full of fillers and synthetics. So she decided to make her own dog food and air-dried real food dog food made in a human-grade kitchen using the same ingredients and care,

you'd used to cook for your own family. Our dog jacks is very thankful. That Sundays for dogs came into existence. Why is it called Sundays? I don't know. And jacks doesn't care.

frozen or refrigerated, but not Sundays. You know thawing or crap. No mess. Just healthy, clean food

“for a healthy, happy doggy. So make the switch to Sundays. Go right now to Sundays for dogs.com/HolyPost50”

and get 50% off your first order. Or you can use code Holy Post 50 at checkout.

That's 50% off your first order at Sundaysfor dogs.com/HolyPost50. Sundaysfor dogs.com/HolyPost50 or use code Holy Post 50 at checkout. Okay guys, so I want to start with this. Phil is somewhere warm, tropical, enjoying himself on a well-deserved break. He's probably sipping delicious beverage and a lounge chair by a pool or a sandy beach someplace. If it were you, what would be your beverage of choice? What is your go-to? And in that kind of a vacationy tropicaly situation?

Boy, that's a great question. Do you have an answer already? Oh, of course. Okay, well, oh, but Mike's ready. Okay, go. Go ahead, Mike. No, I'm not ready. I wanted to see what sort of party this is before I bring that. I was wanting to know what kind of answer was this? This is why I'm asking because

our first story is going to be about this. Go ahead. Oh, I think I would start.

It was like a very classic like a pina colada. But if I'm sitting on the beach all day, I'm a Diet Coke girl. I will have a lot of Diet Coke's. That's not as excited.

“But I could Diet Coke is the best thing man ever made. Yeah.”

Oh, as you are drinking a Diet Dr. Brown. This is what was in the fridge. If there had been a Diet Coke in the fridge, I would have gotten Mike. What's your go-to? I mean, Diet Coke, I'm with Caitlyn on that. But if I'm, if I'm, if it's tropical, I'm going to go a mango margarita. If I'm, if I'm with my family, if I'm with men, if I'm with men, I'm going to go, I'm going to go. Course Light because nothing tastes great in

the tropics and the blue mountains. But yeah, mango margarita. I'm going to go like corona in the in the beer category. No, it's guy. I have a confession. I am a one beer guy and it's course light. And it's been course light. I have maybe five or six a year. But I'm faithful when I, when I go out. Wow. It's just, it's what it is. I'm sorry. I know. I know confession that I make.

I don't drink beer. I just don't. I'm not surprised. Dude, I've never,

are you a whiskey guy? I am a whiskey guy. But I had an a beach kind of vacation kind of thing. I'm totally into a peanut colata. Yeah, some fruity or margarita, something, you know, a tequila drink. It's okay. The reason I bring this up is because the first thing I want to talk about is an interesting article in the New York Times. The headlines as restaurants are struggling as Americans drink less. People are not drinking alcohol as much as they used to. So we're going

to get into this little bit because it's kind of fitting a theme that I want to hit today. Here's what the article says. But 2025 Gallup poll found that US drinking rate was at a new low with only 54% of respondents reporting that they had that they drink alcohol. And those who did say they am vibe reported drinking less. The reasons range, okay, what are the, let me ask you guys. Why do you think people are drinking? I mean, there's speculation throughout this article and the interview

a bunch of restaurant owners are how they're struggling. I didn't realize this, but in the past,

“the kind of golden rule was that a restaurant earned about, I think it was 60% of its revenue from”

alcohol and 40% from food sales. That tracks. And then it's recently kind of shifted to 50 50 alcohol and food sales. And now they're making more from food sales and from alcohol, which is not good for their bottom line, because it's not the business model. So you say money, people are drinking less. I think people are drinking less because they're spending less money. And if you go out, it's the drinks that are going to get you. Okay. Ooh, that's fair. My, that's fair. Do you have

a thing? I, I, I, I would place that into the bucket of like, all of these measures like dating or sexual activity, like all these measures are down. So just the kind of, the general category of connection, socializing, all of that seems to be down across the board for a myriad of reasons. So I probably put that in that bucket too. Okay. So people are just sitting at home on their phones. They're not going after a drink. They're not dating. That's a good first date. It's a drink. And if you're

not going on a lot for states, you're not getting a lot of drinks. That makes sense. My wife and I were recently on a short getaway. And we went to a couple of restaurants. And I was kind of surprised, including at the hotel we were at. I was surprised to see how the the menu options for non-alcoholic cocktails is rapidly expanding. Yes. And in many cases, they're just as expensive. That's yes. So in the article, it says non-alcoholic drinks while helpful and clearly in demand, they can't fill the financial

but consumers won't pay the same price for them. So in fact, in some cases, they're more expensive

“because they have juices and tea, that are not as easy to do. Okay. So your idea of Mike”

of people just not socializing and drinking as much is not mentioned as one of the possible reasons in the article. He's an original thinker. Doesn't mean New York Times is correct. It's just not there. Caitlyn yours was mentioned. Okay. And of course. We'll get to that for a second. But the other factor is just demographics. Okay. So check this out. People between the ages of 31 and 45 are the most likely to order alcohol at a restaurant. Yeah. Millennials who fit a good chunk of that age

group now are beginning to age out of their peak drinking years. Okay. And Gen Z, who should be filling in that? Yeah. Yeah. Are not drinking nearly as much as Millennials did. They're not filling the gap. Interesting. Because of my reason. That could be because of my reason. That's a good, yeah. But there's also, I mean, is there, did it, does it talk at all about kind of wellness,

culture, events, a little critical of drinking? Yeah. But even that doesn't quite interesting.

“Make up for it because they're eating all kinds of other garbage. Yeah. This is like the person who”

like won't eat seed oils. But like, destructs. So the two, two of the reasons they gave is a big one. It's costs. It's expensive for an adult. It's really expensive for a 22 year old. They say. Yeah. And unemployment rate for Gen Z is 9.2%. Right. So if you're going to go out and enjoy time with friends, it's a heck of a lot more expensive if you have a drink or two. Yeah. Here's the other one. I had not thought of GLP one. I was going to say this. Oh, yeah. Yeah. There's tons on just like,

they make you desire less of all sorts of things. Yeah. Like, ozempick and these other injectable dietary drugs and blood sugar controlling drugs. They've been shown to reduce alcohol consumption.

And they're now being used by about a million Americans. Yeah. This has had like cascading effects

on restaurants in terms of like coercion size and how much people will pay and totally. Yeah. I mean, you don't factor how much of the American economy is built on the fact that we're gluttones. That's true. And when there's suddenly a drug that reduces gluttony, it's not good for the economy. Yeah. Okay. Is there? Sorry. Go ahead. Does a GLP one affect the intake of alcohol? Does it worsen it, soften it? No, it just makes you desire less. Yeah. Okay. So it it it quenches cravings more quickly.

Like gambling they don't sound it's crazy. Yeah. It is it's a really fascinating drug and it mostly operates mind or standing on that I'm a scientist through regulating your blood sugar. Yeah. So that you don't have hunger pains as much. And so you don't need as much. It also slows down the digestive system. So you steal you feel full longer. Which again, I don't know how that affects alcohol. That they like don't know. Yeah. They can't figure out why those other things.

It dampens your desire for but it does. Okay. Another factor that we didn't bring up. Okay. Is the legalization of marijuana. That makes sense. And there's a whole generational. Right. There's a generation of people who are like, oh, I don't want to drink alcohol because it's not good for my health. Yeah. And I'll put on weight and I would rather do animals or smoke marijuana. Are there are there like salcers and stuff that have THCM or so? And I just got into those

count of back and forth with someone on Holy Post plus recently because they were arguing that marijuana is better for you than alcohol. And yet, there's been study after study for study

“that says that's actually not true. Yeah. Yeah. So there's this, I think myth going around out there”

that marijuana is way better for you than drinking alcohol. And they're different. They definitely affect you differently. But the studies are beginning to show massive negative side effects to regular recreational use of marijuana products, including much higher spikes in mental health disorders, infertility and men in particular, all kinds of other stuff. It's not good. But that could be a factor. People'd rather spend their money in the dispensary than than the alcohol thing.

Do you think Christian fundamentalists are happy about this trend of less less drinking? When coupled with more marijuana use, no. I don't, you know, it's that's so interesting because if the goal is to have a healthy relationship with alcohol or the goal is to have a healthy relationship with sexuality, then that's so hard to measure on just, well, less people are doing it. That doesn't mean it's necessarily a healthier relationship with those sorts of things. So I don't

know, I don't know if it's worth celebrating or not or is we'll get to or we just replacing something with something else because like you take sports betting, let's say, and the amount of money going into sports betting from Gen Z instead of maybe alcohol. So we're just, we're just swapping out things, something that's necessarily an overall net improvement. The sports betting thing has gotten my attention recently. There was a fantastic article in the Atlantic that just came

topic, big problem. But the alcohol thing caught my attention because I remember many years ago being at a talk where an older evangelical leader was speaking and he was going through all these statistics talking about how, how much better society is becoming because of the influence of the church and he was citing things like, there's fewer rated our movies, the sale of pornographic magazines are way way down. And I was, I made that same look that you just made. You just haven't

kept up with the time. Exactly. I was like, dude, you realized why those things are the way they are because cell phones and the internet, but he was just, he only wanted to see the glasses have

“full. And I think some people are going to look at that alcohol statistic. Oh, this is great.”

Americans are drinking less. It's better for their health. It's better for their relationships, mental health, all that kind of stuff. And morally, it's good, but they're not looking at the bigger picture. And I know there have been studies generally about drinking the cleaning, but this is specifically about restaurants. If people are drinking at home, that's not better. Like, I'd rather people drink, I mean, this is during the pandemic. I made a rule for myself

that I would only drink when someone was near me because I was alone so much of the time. If you lived in an apartment, there were people across the wall for me. Well, yeah, there you go. But I really didn't realize how quickly when you were alone and times were stressful and you wanted to go to sleep and whatever you could become, you could end up in a really unhealthy place without

a very fast. And that always, I read the beginning of this when you talked first, I'd talk about

it and I went, but there's nothing in this about who's just going home and drinking a lot,

“which I think to my point about social norms, like, I'd rather people go and hang out with someone”

than go home and do marijuana. All right. Well, let's keep the theme of stuff related to fundamentalism in decline. Go in. There's an interesting article by our friend Ryan Burge, who writes on the sub-stag graphs about religion. He says creationism isn't as common as you think. Okay, so creationism. You guys are familiar with this idea or sometimes referred to as young earth creationism. It's sort of the Ken Ham creation museum. I took a whole creationism class. Did you really in college? It was

called creationism. And was it advocating for creationism? Yeah, and I was at Liberty University, I started out being very convinced. I'd actually didn't need to take the class. I ended the class unconfused. So it had the opposite effect. It was intended. But we everyone was required to. It was a general edre requirement. All right. I'm sure you both read this article. So if you can kind of go back in time to before you read the article, if you were asked, what percentage of Americans hold

to a creationist of you of Genesis or the origins of humanity, whatever, like, what would have been your guess? 30? 30 percent. Yeah. Mike? I would have guessed 70. Wow. 70? No, you live in the Americans of America. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would say no. Of Americans, I would say probably 30 to

40 percent, maybe a third. All right. Well, it's just sort of a hangover. It's just sort of a hangover,

“sort of religious fundamentalism. So this is what surprised me. And I think Brian burgeon a little”

bit in his article. There are only two groups of Americans that were over 20 percent holding to a creationist view. And that's evangelicals and orthodox Christians. And they were only like barely over 20 percent. Biggo orthodox. Right. Biggo. Is that how you refer to them? Biggo orthodox? Well, I don't know. We throw orthodox around a lot in the show. Yeah. So I want to be clear to people. We don't mean like people who are really Christians. We mean Eastern orthodox.

So what was it overall? I didn't even remember it from the article. What was the overall percentage of Americans who hold this view? 17. 17 percent. And what caught my eye is the fact that it's been going down. Yeah. Like older age groups hold to it more. And it goes down as you go

younger. So for example, older evangelicals, it was 28 percent younger evangelicals. It's now

down to 24 percent. Black Protestants, older black Protestants. It was 26 percent, younger black Protestants. It's less than half that. 12 percent. Other interesting thing is far more women hold that this view than men. Creationism. Yeah. Okay. Well, men explain that. Yeah. I didn't notice that when I was like, you know, that's interesting. That is the last point he made. I'm going to have to give you a thought about. I really can't think of a good reason.

How much is the difference? I felt huge. I think it was 21 percent of evangelical men, 29 percent. I want to raise this is capturing the generational like women, a prior generation or two, like above me, tend to be much more religious. Not just in terms of religious attendance, but in terms of doctrine. Like, if they're bringing their husband to church with them and their husband isn't really paying attention, but they're labeled evangelical. They're more religious. I mean,

I, that's the first thing. Okay. So what's interesting is when you dig into the data as Ryan does here, the majority of Americans of pretty much every religious orientation hold some kind of

explanation for creation. So they're not pure evolutionary evolutionists, evolutionists,

right, where there's no God involved. So they believe that there's a God involved, but that intelligent design. Exactly. That kind of view is the by far the most common. But okay, here's my question. I remember this being like a debated topic when I was a teenager

“back in the 90s. Mike, you're with me on that. Oh, yeah. Is anyone arguing about this anymore?”

Is this a topic that young people, youth groups? No. Anyone is debating or is it just just a tiny niche thing on the home school fringes of American society? I mean, I really think just based off of churches I have been in that are broadly evangelicals, sometimes even more conservative evangelical. It just seems like there's enough that divides us from

non-evangelicals or non-Christians. Then there's so much of that. It's not worth it to divide

amongst ourselves on this. Like, there's enough going on that seems rooted and just not believing in any intelligent design at all. The getting into the creation is on part seems like it's unnecessary. And we have a new kind of chivalet for determining if you hold to biblical an errand scene. Which is? It's either same-sex marriage or women's ordination. That becomes the like line that tells you whether you take scripture seriously or not. So if we already have a new one,

it's not doesn't need to be creation as many more. And we're already fighting enough with people who don't hold to very much of what we believe, let alone a very specific view that we believe. At least even when I was in seminary at a very conservative seminary,

“I just don't remember that being a thing that seems very important to most people.”

Is it? I was always fed to me. Again, back in the 90s was

if you don't hold to a young earth creation as view, if you don't read Genesis one that way, if you don't take it literally, then you can't take any of the Bible literally and you're on this slippery slope down into liberalism. So it wasn't just a chivalet for conservative reading of the Bible. It was like the chivalet because it's chapter one verse one of the Bible and you got to hold the whole thing. I think you're right, Caitlyn

that it's not quite the marker it used to be because we have these other ones. But I'm just surprised that it's kind of lost so much power. When rhetorically, I think it's garbage, but rhetorically it makes so much sense to say, Genesis one, hey, you got to hold this firm, otherwise you lose you know? You know what I think also interestingly might be happening is this is one of those things, like a virgin birth, like the miracle accounts that for a while was this big apologetic thing

because along lines of what you just said, if you can't believe this then like you can't believe in God. I wonder if increasingly in apologetics conversations, it's like the point,

“like the sticking point is not, can you believe in something fantastical, like a miracle?”

Can you believe a virgin could give birth to a child? Can you believe God could make the world in six days? People believe all kinds of crazy stuff, like they believe lots of supernatural stuff. If that's no longer like the big fighting line and apologetics, I wonder if it just becomes less important to people because when they are debating with people, it's like, I don't know people believe lots of crazy stuff. Like I don't know that finding out if you believe

it's possible God created the world in six days really tells you anything about how much you're willing to accept the much more fantastical claims of Christianity. Mike, what about? I wonder, go ahead. Yeah, no, that's I wanted to jump it on that and it was curious about your guys' take on something similar. It seems that that whole approach to faith is not incredibly relevant these days. It is obviously for some people, obviously has a place. Sky and I were raised

on Josh McDowell, JP Moreland, CS Lewis, William Lane Craig and you could gather it crowd by asking those big questions. Does God exist? Is there any evidence for the resurrection like that sort of fit the zeitgeist? Yeah. A little bit and I just don't, I don't know that those evidentiary approaches are where the vast majority of people are. In other words, apologetics in general is just not, yes, it's not the draw it was. Or that for real? It's not the draw it was and I think it's answering

questions that only Christians are asking. Yes. Fair enough. And so they, they provide a reassuring like role to the body, which is, hey, we're not, we don't have to be completely idiotic to buy this, but I don't know that that's really where culture is or answering the questions the culture's asking. Yeah, back in the 90s, it seemed like there was, even if it wasn't explicit, sooner or later in a conversation, it would come up that there is a tension between faith and science, right? It

just came up all, all the time. And I, I don't, I don't think that's the case as much anymore. Yeah. Which is so fascinating because, yeah, the, I mean, the interesting thing in the data is the number of folks who believe in a purely evolutionary explanation for creation isn't really growing that much either. So it isn't like, evolution's growing at the expense of creationism.

and somehow he's directing evolution is, is the preferred idea. I mean, there's a whole different

kind of faith that's sort of required to believe in like a purely mechanistic process where there was no intelligent design whatsoever. I mean, you look around at the world. It's, there's a

“different kind of jump of faith you have to do. And I think most people, it's probably a”

retriever, most of history that most people, even if they have differences of how they would narrate what happened because this is not a new debate. This question of like how creation came about even pre-evolution. There were other questions about the makeup of the solar system and and how to read Genesis. I mean, Augustine is like reading Genesis in wild ways from the very beginning. So there's debates about this very early on. And even as they're increasingly less

Christians and Western nations, it's just, it's a pretty hard sell. It's a pretty hard sell to go ignore a lot of the science and just believe one particular interpretation of this passage that not all Christians have believed for all of time. And it's also really hard sell to go. No one's in charge of any of this and it's just a wild chaotic process and look here we are. It does make me think that all the, the, the attention, the museum, the curriculum, all that stuff that can ham and

answers and Genesis have put out for how 40 years, however long it's been. It's not really working. No. It's not gaining traction. It's not finding more adherence. It's, it's just not worth arguing about like that. It's a, it's going to be an interesting little time capsule of Christianity, a very conservative Christianity that will run its course, but it doesn't seem like it's got legs. Yeah. I do think, I mean, the stuff that you guys talk about, the stuff that we

talk about on boxology, it's just of an entirely different category than some of those big, kind of doctoral questions. It's abuse and trauma and leadership run riot and individualism and all the things, right? It's just, it's, it's rarely some sort of defensive, some objective truth as much as it is, um, can Christianity even be plausible in terms of actually helpful in the world. That's a far cry from, you know, given me your defense for the resurrection or something. Right.

Right. Okay. So so far, we've got one point for the fundamentalists in the fact that people are drinking less, but we're going to subtract one point from the fundamentalists because fewer of them are believing in young earth creationism. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, yep. One more. This is the tiebreaker. This is the tiebreaker. Uh, let, before we get into this article though, let's, let's just

recap a little bit of history of how we've gotten it, gotten this point. So during Donald Trump's first

“term, some of you remember the, uh, the Tiki torch guys down in Charlotte, Charlotte's bill, where”

we're going to Charlotte's bill. We're Tiki torch guys just saying the Jews will not replace us. This is a lot of people's first indication that there's some weird stuff happening on the alt-right mega world around anti-Semitism. And then fast forward a little bit. You get the Hamas attack on Israel on October 7th, 2023, which was shocking and awful, which then began the war in Gaza. And as that war was unfolding, there were a lot of reactions in the American public, not terribly surprisingly,

there were some more left-wing student campus activists who were very pro-Palestinian anti Israeli on this war thing. But to some people's surprise, there started to be more voices

on the conservative right and to the spectrum politically who are also critical of Israel. Yeah.

And people like Tucker Carlson and other kind of MAGA voices on the right started coming forward. And the big question was starting to emerge like, why, why is Israel losing the support of some conservatives in America? And some thought, well, that's because of the MAGA America first kind of thing, the fatigue over foreign wars, the desire to extract ourselves from foreign and tanglements, whether that's Ukraine and Russia or Israel and Gaza. But then it kind of bubbled over into more

than just a critique of a particular foreign policy or a particular war. It became, in some cases, really grow test kind of anti-Semitism on the right. The NIC-Fuen-Pwest Fuen-T. Wow. NIC-Fuen-Tes and some of that group. So there's this article in Politico by Joshua Zitz. Is that high-says name? Is that high-says? I don't know. Zeezy. Z-E-I-T-Z. The title of the article is, how the rapture explains the rupture over Israel on the right.

All right. This, I find so interesting. As you might, you know, I've talked about this,

“kind of the role of the rapture theology. He says, it's no secret that Israel is losing ground”

in American public opinion on both the left and the right, even as many American Jews feel newly besieged by rising anti-Semitism. A much of the left activists and intellectuals increasingly

Casting the conflict in the moral language of oppressor and depressed. On the right, a different

“but equally consequential shift is underway. Influential conservatives, like Tucker Carlson,”

have come to view Israel as a drain on American resources. Setting up debates with Israel supporters, like Texas Senator Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee, a Baptist preacher and ambassador to Israel.

But the criticisms, criticisms go beyond the magam movement of America first isolationism.

The turn on the right isn't just about geopolitics. It's about theology. And this is where you then go into a lengthier explanation about dispensationalism, which is kind of left behind rapture theology. He sights Ryan Birch, our friend, who we were just talking about with his research about creationism. Ryan Birch is argued more and more Americans are conflating evangelicalism with Republicanism and melding two forces to create a movement that is not entirely about politics

or religion but about power. And essentially goes on to say, the theological framework that led so many people to support Israel in white American evangelicalism. That theology is just not being absorbed or transmitted or adhered to, like it used to be. He says this. In the context of Cold War politics, this theological structure made Jews and the Jewish state politically valuable. Israel was not just another country. It was a prophetic sign. That made it easier for conservative

evangelicals to see Israel as an indispensable ally. Even if the spiritual logic behind the alliance was not one, most Jews would have chosen. For those of you unfamiliar with this, although most listening probably are, there was this broadly held idea in American conservative evangelical

circles that the modern state of Israel had a critical role to play in Christian views of the

future. That Israel had to be reestablished. The Jewish people had to return to the land. In some cases, a new temple had to be built. All these things were going to lead to the return of Christ. So a lot of American evangelicals believed that what was going on in the Middle East with the nation's state

“of Israel was important for our theological beliefs, which is this weird melding of these two ideas.”

Okay. Within this world view, he says Israel sat at the center of both sacred and secular history. Defending it was consistent with American strategic interests, but it was also a form of religious fidelity. That fusion of biblical prophecy and cold war geopolitics helped lay the emotional and theological groundwork for the later alliance between conservative evangelicals and the pro-Israel right. Okay. Before we start unpacking what's going on now, I'm curious when in

your upbringing, because your different generations did this view first into your consciousness, that this would like your church or your community or your parents or whoever it was, actually had some religious interpretation of what was going on with Israel. And therefore, America's support of them. Yeah. Mike, go for it. You exist before me. Man. You know what? Just because I'm older, Caitlin, that's not, that's not helpful.

There was a guy named How Lindsay who wrote a couple of massive, massive books that hit Christian subculture around the time. I hit campus crusade for Christ. And so these things got passed around and that was my first exposure to the idea that Israel's formation is a nation in 1948 started to count down to a generation that would not pass until Jesus had returned. So that was the first time. And then it was looking the European Union and Michael Gorbachev and everybody from

that sort of generation, we were all fishing around for modern day antichrist and those sorts of things trying to fulfill to see what fulfillment would come. That was the first, that was the first glimpse I got of that. And did you, were you suspicious of it at the time or did you just kind of

take it in hook line and sinker? You know, I'd never heard the Bible understood that way. So I found

it, I found it absolutely fascinating. I did not buy the, did you ever see the movie, keep in the night? Oh, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so so I didn't, I didn't connect the two, but the idea, like when we were young, we would see this movie and it was all about the antichrist and there was some sort of ending where a kid got martyr or a parent got martyr or something. And so

“I think the seeds of affirmation were already planted. So I was amenable to it when I first”

discovered it because the big lure was, hey, we take all this literally. Like if you're going to take the Bible literally, this is where it leads you. So initially, I was like, oh, wow, yeah,

children's books or like young adult books as a young kid. It's funny though, I feel like in some sense my introduction to these ideas as a set of ideas was not until I went to a dispensational

seminary because prior to that, we were always at Bible churches, we were always at churches that

were dispensationalists, but I couldn't have told you what it was because along the lines of what

“Michael just saying, I just thought that's how you read the Bible. Like that's just, it was such a”

strong framework in my mind that it wasn't until I got to a dispensational seminary that felt the need to say, this is what dispensationalism is, this is our framework, here's the alternatives, here's why they're wrong. That was the first time it had occurred to me that there wasn't alternative to any of this. And that relates to, I mean, going back to this article, part of the like kind of a little bit of beef I had with it, is it does this thing that lots of people will do

that sort of assumes if people are caught up in a movement or if they have picked up on certain

ideas and feelings and motivations from that movement that they really understand the theology of that

movement. And I think in some sense, this is not a change, just because less people are talking about explicitly dispensationalist ideas. Now, it doesn't mean there's been a change in how many people really understand what this article calls the complicated system of dispensationalism at the time and there's been historians that have documented this. There was no theological consistency in the 70s, 80s, 90s as people are swimming in these ideas. They're reading how Lindsay,

they're reading left behind. They're kind of picking up on these vague tribulation, rapture ideas. They're picking up on Israel being really important, but like most of them couldn't have done what I had to do in seminary, which is right out a chart of all of the

“dispensations and what the stages of the end times would be and all of that. And so I think if anything,”

we're continuing in the same trend we've always had of less and less biblical literacy, less and less

theological knowledge. And now as you already read, Ray and Birch pointing out, if even Jellical has more of a political connotation than a theological one, the ground was already set. Like no one was really holding on to their charts and worried about that at the time, their pastors might have been holding on to their charts. But the people were just kind of picking up some of these big ideas and that was my experience. I would not have defended dispensationalism to you before

learning what it was as a 22 year old. It was just in the atmosphere. It was just yeah. Right. It's the water you're swimming in in a lot of American white evangelicalism, but here's the point though. The article is essentially saying that adherence to this view, even if it's not well thought through or articulated, adherence to this view is declining. And therefore, fewer white evangelical republican voting conservative Americans feel the same religious need to stick with the state of Israel.

Now, there's a couple of explanations for that. One could be, and I don't think this is true, one could be that evangelical elites and scholars are just doing a really good job of poking holes in dispensationalism. You've done it. I've done it. That explains it, right? No, but it is a very minority view. Like most scholars do not believe in this interpretation, and they're actually having a positive influence on American Christianity. Let's go with that and move on. Right. That's

got to be what's happening. But the other one, which he kind of argues more for, is just overall in American society, institutions are having a lot less influence on people. Yeah. And so his argument seems to be those institutions that in the past had disseminated these ideas, although in perfectly to your point, they were nonetheless in the atmosphere. People just aren't being shaped by the

“churches that are a part of anymore. Yeah. And so on one level, I think this is good news because I think”

dispensationalism, the rapture, this view of Israel as sort of God's special state in the world that can do no wrong. I think that's really bad and dangerous theology. Yeah. So a one hand, I want to go good. I'm glad this thing is having less influence. On the other hand, in the vacuum of churches and denominations and Christian media not having as much influence, what's filling that vacuum? What seems to be filling it are those new shibiliths that you were talking

about, Caitlin, it's ironically, it's being filled with anti-Semitism, which is the pendulum swinging way too far in the other direction. And people are now saying what really marks you as an evangelical in America is not what you think about Israel or what you think about the rapture, what you think about the end times or even what you think about young earth creationism, what really marks you is what do you think about immigration? What do you think about racism?

What do you think about Trump? What do you think about Trump? What do you think about women? What do you think about any foreign wars or entanglement? Like that's becoming the shibiliths and in a lot of cases, those things that people are landing on are antithetical to the values that you see in scripture or in small O orthodox Christianity. So that's that's that's what's weird here is we're we're abandoning

It's on this is a cynical take, but I do think it's partially true. People have always gone to

theology that justifies the political opinions they already held. So people went to dispensationalism because it justified the political opinion about Israel. They already wanted to hold. People are moving away from it because it no longer justifies the new political position on Israel. They want to hold now. And this might be a good wake-up call for some people to realize that a lot of the theological talking heads when they hit at the right moment feel like they're very influential in

what people believe theologically, but in reality if they're not disciplining people well, if they're not disciplining well, yeah, disciplining and disciplining people well, they're going to move away from the theology as soon as it doesn't support the politics they already wanted to hold.

“Do you think my do you think this represents a redefinition of Christian fundamentalism?”

Like again, when you and I were young bucks back in the '90s, Christian fundamentalism was associated with not drinking alcohol with a certain view of Genesis and creation and can ham and all that stuff and a view of the future and the end times that was defined by the rapture and the state of Israel and all that stuff. All of that seems to be changing because now you have tons of secular people who aren't drinking alcohol. You have most Christians, including white

evangelicals, totally dismissing young earth creationism as a relevant topic at all and an increasing number of them abandoning their eschatology, their view of the future, the rapture and the role of Israel in it instead are taking on these magaschiboliths of anti-wokeism, race, immigration, or that kind of stuff as being more fundamental to what does it mean to be a fundamentalist today than Israel. Is that accurate? Is that what you're seeing even in your experience in Nashville? Absolutely.

Absolutely. The opportunity you have from standing in front of a congregation to even nuance a position. I remember we did a prayer just on immigration and you could feel, you know, part of the room just tightened up. Without anybody hearing the prayer, I mean, we've been

pre-discipled in ways and we've had people leave our church just basically say, listen,

love that you love what you guys are doing but it just doesn't align with my values and that's code for, "Hey, I already have made up my political opinions and I'm looking for the fastest-scoring churches here are churches that have embraced maga wholesale." Without any critique or concern, it's just, yep, God guns and country and giddy up. And so I do think this is a net loss. This is a new fundamentalism and it's not that the left doesn't have its own, of course it has its own.

“But in this case, swapping out the fundamentalism has as many if not more, I think bad implications for”

the church as we, are you saying we should actually long for the old 20th century kind of Christian fundamentalism? I was just a theology. Right, well that's my point. You could argue they were wrong or they were over indexing on certain things they shouldn't have, but at least they were making an attempt to be grounded in something remotely biblical, right? And the new kind of Christian fundamentalism is just heretical through and through. And they held their ground with

their biblical, they would say they're biblical. I think it's not in the Bible, neither are guns. What? What? I mean, you could make a case for their reading of Genesis as I don't think it's the most informed or faith or way to read it. Sure. But I would not fault them as not paying attention to the text. Yeah. Whereas, but if you look at like the reformed argument of, hey, government was given before the fall, therefore government can be redeemed and it's the role of the church to influence

the government to its pre-fall state. That's, I mean, disagree with it, but that's, that's a theological argument. It's not held by many and we would push back on it left and right. So I do see some parallels though, but that suspicion you have sky, that I would rather go back to the old fundamentals

“than inherit these. I think it's absolutely right. I think the, the wedding with power,”

not that the other wasn't, but the, just the, the brute love of power in this category of fundamentalism is really, really gnarly. So if there's any congruency between the old, let's say fundamentalism 1.0 and fundamentalism 2.0, is it patriarchy? Is that the throughline that's consistent?

It's always a good go-to. Because that seems, that seems like it's still there. That's the

but I, even back in the 20th century, though, there were, there were a Christian fundamentalist groups

that were very welcoming of immigrants and refugees. Yeah, from a, from a social gospel perspective,

“that's fair. Yeah, Caitlin. Yeah, I mean, this is where I think your, your sense is right,”

though, that I would prefer some of the old fundamentalists. Because this, this is the whole, um, I forget, who said this originally on Twitter, something like, you know, if you thought you, you didn't like the religious right, just wait until you get to the ear religious right. Like, there's something to be said for like, I'm not a patriarchalist. I'm not a complimentarian. I loved the ones though that were like, you take care of your wife and you take care of your family and

you love them and you, you know, you're the provider and you're, I don't love the, the, the bros on

Instagram now that are like you conquer and you take and you, and there's a Christian veneer on a lot of that. Like, there is an unmooring of any of this from anything that binds it to Christian doctrine or that disciplines it from going too far. Once you've really, once you have fully accepted that Christianity is just a symbol and idea and identity, and you can tack onto it any of your kind of like a nichey and, uh, desires, then that is going to be worse to me than the fundamentalist

who I might disagree with, but who at least felt bound to defend what they were doing as distinctly Christian and as rooted in scripture rather than doing whatever they want in baptizing it as Christian because Christianity has lost any any substance to it other than a cultural or ethnic even for some of them identity. What's our takeaway from this? Because one of the things that frightened me a little bit about this article and I think it's true is his, his point is that institutions

overall churches in particular are not the thing influencing people's beliefs and views. Shocking. And so even if you're pastor or you're, or your denominational, whatever may have been deeply dispensational, the people in the views are not because that's not who's shaping their faith, that's not who's listening to, and now they are listening to all these online influencers, YouTube personalities, podcasts, perhaps, and those folks are having a far

deeper influence than pastors in the pulpit or denominational leaders or doctrinal statements. What does that mean? Like what do we do about that for good or ill? Like those are the things shaping people's views and then if anything the churches are downstream like you mentioned Mike the fastest growing churches in your area are going full and on God's gun maga stuff because

“that's what the audience wants because they want it. What? God's gun maga stuff. What does the”

same? God, what'd you say? It was something like that. Oh, God guns country. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. What's there's not to be a sign at Hobby Lobby that's got some maga. I don't know. Liv Laf love God's gun guns babies. I don't know. I don't know. But you're right. Mike, get us out of this. What do we do? Oh Lord have mercy. Well,

number one, and this is not a shocker. The sermon on the Mount has never been more relevant

in the history of ever. I think that political discipleship to your first book, Miss Katelyn, is something that has to have to now be a regular part of like pulpit considerations. I would also say the movement from word to flesh. It has to be increasingly emphasized. Meaning the church has to not facilitate or play into the unmooring of people until isolated selves. Like we cannot do life stage ministry anymore. Like it just whatever we can do to counter program towards real

“life and real conversation. I think it's the most important spiritual discipline that's out there.”

So for us, we just do this thing once a month called the table, which is not a Bible study. It's just people sitting around the table getting each other. And that's all we do. Literally, that's all we schedule for our church is that thing. And it's not that it's great or whatever. But we sort of believe that the movement from word to flesh has to be emphasized over and over and over because in culture, the movement I think is still just will word to more words, words to more opinions,

because I can find anybody online that will agree with what I'm already thinking. So I don't know. I don't know. That's what we're trying to do. But at the end of the day, the thing that Jesus reminds me of over and over and over is he didn't just critique, he created the better alternative. And I'm just convinced when people stumble into churches, whether they be 50, 100 or 1000 people, who are deeply committed to the kingdom as an alternative way of life, there is something that

opens up, maybe not immediately and maybe not in all the religious ways we want it to. But there

exposing and all of the, all of the ugliness and power in evangelicalism, I think at the end of that sifting is a really faithful looking church that will have a magnetic pole that it has it had in a while. I hope you're right. So I'm really hopeful. I hope you're right. Okay, well as we wrap up, spring break is coming. Are you going anywhere, Mike? We had it and no, Seth and I, you already had your spring break. We had our spring break. I sent my wife to California. My sons and I had a great time watching

really bad movies and drinking goers like, well, you know what, I'm not going to say, I don't know what kind of party this is. Caitlyn, are you getting away at all? Uh, no, I'm not doing some of each time. I'm in like full, like, I'm getting married this year. My fiance's brothers getting married this year. We're going to like five weddings this. I just feel like all of my fun and travel for spring and summer is just. Are you okay? And you're wedding planning are you guys having an open

“bar? Yeah. Whoa. And sky is not coming. I am not coming. Which is like, why would you not?”

With an open bar? I have a conflict. I'm going to be. I was going to say when we were talking about the alcohol conversation, I was going to be like, look, as someone who gets to tell the venue how many people don't drink and gets to not pay for a for an open bar for them. Like, I welcome Genzy, just not drinking. That's awesome. That's great for more affordable wedding. That's great for me. All right. Well, thank you all for tuning in this week. Phil will be back next week

from his vacation. If you guys are going on vacation for spring break, I hope you enjoy yourselves. Don't drink irresponsibly. Be very responsible drinking. And we will see you guys next week. And

Mike, thank you for filling in for us. Yes. Oh, absolutely. Always love it. Cheers to Phil. All right,

stay tuned for the interview, which is coming up right after this. Bye, everyone. The Holy Coast is sponsored by Rocket Money. Hey, if you're like me, you want to use your money to do good in the world to support causes you're really believing. But by the end of the month, your money's all gone. Maybe it's because like me, you got like 50 subscriptions,

“half of which you don't even remember signing up for. That app for your kids, they use”

once that delivery service, that fitness plan that didn't work out so well. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings and free up money for the things you

really care about. Rocket Money has saved users over two and a half billion dollars,

including over 880 million in cancelled subscriptions alone. There are 10 million members save up to 740 bucks a year when they use all of the app's premium features. Cancels your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to Rocket Money.com, slash Holy Post today. That's Rocket Money.com slash Holy Post. Rocket Money.com slash Holy Post. The Holy Post is sponsored by Better Health. This month will celebrate International Women's Day.

Women have a day. Who knew? There's an African saying that says, "Women hold up half the sky." And in my house, it's way more than that. My wife Lisa supports me. She supports our kids. She supports our grandkids. She supports our new dog jacks while I animate and play with puppets. If you're a woman supporting a whole lot, who's supporting you? Lisa and I have both benefited from therapy to resolve conflict, set healthy boundaries, and better equip us to help the people that

count on us. Better help will match you with a licensed therapist that can give you the support you need. They're the world's largest online therapy platform with an industry leading match fulfillment rate. And if you don't like your therapist, you can change at any time. Holding up half the sky is a lot easier when you're being held up to. Your emotional well-being matters. Find support and feel lighter in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/holdypost. That's

better.htlp.com/holdypost. Holypost is supported by policy genius. When I was a kid, I really wanted a GI Joe adventure truck for Christmas. It had lights that lit up and even a tiny motor that made a little antenna thingy spin around. I loved it. It was great. Until it broke about a week later. A better gift to give your family. One that will last forever is live endurance. I know it's boring like socks, but it's better than socks because it protects more than just your feet.

“Life insurance is important, but how do you shop for it? That's where policy genius comes in.”

They do the hard work of finding the right policy for your needs and your budget. Policy genius helps you compare options by getting quotes from America's top insurers in just a few clicks. And you get a call from a licensed agent to help you work through the quotes and walk you through the whole process. Really, I tried it and it was easy. With policy genius, real users have

gotten 20 years, $2 million policies for just 53 bucks a month. Don't wait until next year.

to compare life insurance quotes from top companies and see how much you could save. That's policy genius.com/holypost. I guess today describes himself as a nutty uncle, a happy grandfather and the balloon guy. He's also someone with an infectious commitment to loving God and others. And through that, he's drawn a whole lot of people closer to Christ and made them more curious about faith. Bob Goff is a New York Times best selling author. Some of his books include love

does, everybody always dream big and undistracted. He's also the founder of Love Does,

a nonprofit serving communities around the world. His latest project is a journey with Jesus, an interactive guide through the Holy Land. We talked about that, but we also discussed his approach to communicating about faith. Bob is in trying to pretend that he's a Bible scholar and he's not an angsty critic of the church either. Instead, he's trying to reach the person who's just beginning to move closer to God. In our conversation, we talk about how he maintains his

joyful attitude and dark times, how he manages criticism when it comes at him from unexpected places, and why on earth he published his cell phone number at the back of his book for anyone to call him at any time. Here is my conversation with Bob Goff. Bob Goff, welcome to the Holy Post.

Hey, thanks a million. Great to see you again. It's been a little bit. Yeah, where am I

“finding you today? You seem very relaxed and a leather chair, Hawaiian shirt. What are you doing?”

I'm just kind of chilling. I've switched from what I used to do, which is go around speaking all the time to not speaking unless I do it for nothing. And so just a friend that has a gathering in Hawaii said, "Well, you come out and speak at this thing." I'm like, "Oh, that's like five and half hours each way." So I'm going to be on the ground for three hours to talk and fly. No, oh my. So this is my protest shirt. I'm wearing my Hawaiian shirt because I'm thinking,

this is crazy. I think a little angel and a grass skirt dies every time somebody's in Hawaii for three hours. Yeah, I'm not going to dig deeper why you wouldn't spend more time in Hawaii when you have the chance, but you've probably been there with us. I know, sweeper here. She's a really tries to stay pretty close to home, and I want to be wherever she's hanging out. So I'll take

“everything that's what I do. So it's been a really interesting season of just saying, you know what?”

I'm going to show up places, but on my dime. And that will make it so that I speak at fewer things. And then there's not commerce that I'm doing with anybody. I'm just like, I'm there because I feel like I have something to add. Well, that's a very generous posture to take. I wish I could do that more often. One of my small contribution in that direction is many of the places I speak ask, you know, you're bringing books or you can sell books, you want to table. I just years ago,

I decided, I am done with that. I just I cannot handle selling my wares at these events. So I just go now. It was kind of awkward, doesn't it? It feels like, here's my stuff and I can make 25 cents by so I know. So this is a protest vote, but they're saying a little bit of you have so much notoriety, but there can be a little bit of a odd thing that happens, like in a little tiny pond, a little bit of celebrity stuff. And we could get that by just saying, we're showing up for nothing.

So, uh, and give me Taco Bell in direction. So it's a wild experiment. Less taxes to pay. That's true. That's true. Okay. Before we get into other stuff, I want to talk about your new book.

“And this, this, I was a little surprised, honestly, when I saw this coming from you, because it's”

different than what you've done in the past. It's called a journey with Jesus, an interactive guide through the Holy Land. It's a, it's a group curriculum, and includes a bunch of videos of you in the Holy Land and these different sites teaching about Jesus. Um, it, um, I'm just curious like, well, where did this project come from? Because I, I know there are other people, Bible scholars, historians, folks like that, that do these tours of the Holy Land and crickets, that's not really your brand.

So, yeah, tell me that this is interesting. Yeah, the background story, uh, going back to like loved as the deal was, I would write one book in trade for one school. Uh, but then they sold a lot

of a million. So, um, so we ended up with more money to do more stuff. And so now we're in 15 countries.

And one of the schools has in Cana in Galilee. I've also got a school in Jordan where we have kids from Gaza that we're teaching. So, um, I go over to the Holy Land a whole bunch, uh, and I thought with these, uh, trouble last several years, I thought, why don't I just bring somebody with me and we'll film it because nobody is anywhere, everybody, like all these sites that would have thousands of people are totally empty. I was there in 2014, I was there in May, 2024,

accessible. There were no crowds anywhere. Yeah, so I thought this will be really great.

“Uh, there's a friend that we both know that tried to film a series, uh, in the Holy Land,”

but he was kind of like next to an emergency exit, and some because there's five, 10,000 people there. So, you go to Cesserie by the sea, they'll be parking for, I don't know, 600 buses, and I'm the only to sell in the parking lot. So, we thought, no, whole idea wasn't a book. It was to make a video series, and then the folks at Thomas Cook said, like, oh, let's do a compendium with it. Like, let's kind of use that in a QR code. So,

the really the idea, the genesis, is I write books for the guy at the tire store. Uh, so not the

second year seminary student. So, what can we do something that's accessible for people that

I would describe his church adjacent. So, they're not in the front row because they're not that into it. They're not up in the, like, uh, taking some sniper position, talking about the industrial Christian complex. They're not like with some attitude. And it's just a guy at the tire store. And he wants to know without all the fluff, he didn't want to know what it means in Greek. He just wants to know what happened at this place where Jesus hung out. And so, it isn't going

light on doctrine. It's just going big on Jesus to see what he'd see over the things. That's the idea. As I dug into it and I watched some of the videos, I was trying to figure out who is this for. Obviously, didn't think about the guy at the tire shop, but that makes perfect sense.

It is very introductory for those who are curious, but you're right. They're not second year

seminary students who are looking to get in all the nitty gritty of stuff. But we need things at that level. We need the cookies on that shelf to entice people in. Yeah, I don't think John Piper is going to be watching this. It's not that he's in a great guy. I'm not making it for the person who has a bunch of stuff sorted out in their life and their faith. It's so the person like me.

“I love that honest prayer in Mark. It says, "I believe just help me with all the parts I”

don't believe right now." So maybe if we could instead of looking like we affirm all these things, just like this gets super real and I hope that there'd be a small safe group of people that you could walk through life with to say, "Man, here's all the stuff I'm that are head scratchers for me." And not doing it with this attitude of skepticism or looking at it with all the different prisms that make up our worldview. But instead, just say, I'm just genuinely curious.

Like how did you pull off a relationship when it gets a little wonky? Given the events occurring both in Israel and Gaza, the West Bank, and now the broader Middle East, there aren't too many people who are going to actually be traveling there in the near future. I'm guessing. So the curriculum is just canceled the trip for 150 people.

Yeah, exactly. It's a difficult time. So the videos that you've produced are for those who have never

been there, a great introductory glimpse into these sites and the Holy Land. And so all the more reason that you might want to jump in with a group and engage this stuff right now. Let me pivot for a second because we were talking before we recorded you and I first met many years ago at this retreat on the Chesapeake Bay. I remember having a conversation with you about parenting with my wife with me and it was really helpful and you were full of wisdom. But even at

“that retreat, and this had to be before you wrote Love Does, well before that. I think so. But even”

then you were already known as sort of the whimsy guy, right? All the joy and the effervescence and the positive attitude. And so one of the questions I wanted to ask you, knowing you were going to come on today, is I've talked to so many people in recent years who are just feeling despair, who are feeling the divisions of our society, all of the brokenness and various levels of their existence. Given your identity and the messaging that you bring, how do you maintain that joy

and that whimsy and that positive outlook in times that sometimes feels so easy to get swept along in the negativity and the brokenness and the division? What's the antidote? Yeah, and for each person, it would be their version of authenticity. I would call it a strategic whimsy. So some people that know me at a really surface level, I'm just a balloon guy, just happy to go lucky and all that. And I'm all of that. That's all pretty upbeat guy. But underneath that is

a mile of strategy, not manipulative strategy. But just I know why I'm doing what I'm doing. What was I thinking of the Jesus asked three hundred and seven questions. The only answer three in his three years of public ministry. So all probably only answer about one question a year as well.

down bias. And I'm a trial lawyer. I mean, it's hard. This is 30 years of win or an argument.

But I'm not trying to be right. I'm trying to be Jesus. And I'm not doing a very good job either a lot of the time. But then I find that you can have people that could be correct and accurate and what they're saying. But their spirit is just so abrasive or they're just kind of not reading the room. And I want to find people that are safe. Like you're an upload sunshine at you,

“but you're a high intellect guy. Because I read your books and you need to read some sentences a”

couple of times to really get at the depth of what they're not because they're not hard to understand. It's just that there's a depth there. But most people really want that they don't have the

opportunity to do that in conversations. But what they want to find is people that are safe.

And as somebody asked me when I wrote a book, they said, "Are you watering down the gospel again?" And I said, "Yes." Because I'm writing books for people who are thirsty. So what I want us to do is think of the people who've been most influential to you and what was it that made the most influential to you in oftentimes because they're safety and authenticity. So I would say that's great advocacy. So when just in the last number of years as you

had to navigate all the same stuff the rest of us have, do you put boundaries up on your own

“media consumption, social media like is it, I hear you saying the importance of safe relationships”

and engaging with people and finding the joy and goodness in those things. But there's so many other things in our lives that can steal that away from us. I feel it in myself if I consume too much media. Yeah. I just, I implode. So how do you maintain your level of enthusiasm and positivity apart from engaging with really good people? Do you have boundaries on how much of the world you

allow into your head? Yeah, there's two thoughts that spring to mind. The first is Diogenes,

the founder of cynicism. As you walk through Athens every day with his lamp held high and people said, what are you doing, man? It's noon. Why do you have your lamp lit? And he said, I'm looking for virtue. And so that isn't this kind of airy, fairy, like happy face on everything. But I'm looking trying to find virtue even in somebody who's kind of trolling me a little bit. That doesn't happen very often because I don't think I invite that much. I'm not kind of like the like picking a fight

with people. But even with the people that are a little on edge to just find the virtue in that now, the second thing, I air gap them hard. I just create a big air gap. And it turns out, if you block somebody, then they take that as like this kind of offensive gesture. And so I just don't block people. I just don't give them airtime. I just, I'm not just going to give that a bunch of airtime. I'm not trying to win arguments that have already like sailed. I'm not trying to go back

in time. And so that idea, the strategy behind that, I try to kind of like block myself from doing that. I'm not, I'm looking for virtue. I'm not looking to win an argument. I'm not looking to gather more evidence about why I'm a good guy and they're not or why I was right and they were wrong. Because I only got this little bit of time left. You know, I'm 67, which makes me actually kind of hip for a 15 year old like 67. So I don't even know it. I mean, but they think it's cool.

I don't even know it. So between 67 and whatever time I have left, I'm not going to spend my time arguing with people. I just want to, there'll be some people that you'll have more influence with than others. I don't mean influence or like wearing a pair of ugly boots and some tights, but to just say the influence. I'm not trying to control people. I want to influence them. I want to tap them on the shoulder and remind them about the times where it worked in their lives.

I'm not trying to blow sunshine to people. I want to be just this reminder that idea the word

“"remember" in Scripture, 8,740 times. I want to be the guy that says, "Hey, remember when it wasn't”

as crazy as it feels right now. Remember when you didn't feel betrayed by some things that were really important to you." And again, that's not ignoring those things. It's just like, that is very much the arc of not only where I'm trying to go with the things I write, but the things that I get into social media just want to tap people in the shoulder. You mentioned being 67. I'm not 67. I'm 50, but I have found that the older I get, the less

attracted I am to arguments. I just, the same thing. I'm just like, I have my opinion on that thing. I think you're wrong about that thing. It might be going on in my head, but I'm just like,

for myself to make myself feel better and more significant. I just don't have the time for it. It's so exhausting. And I didn't, I don't think I have that perspective 15 or 20 years ago where I was much more likely to, you know, throw down and try to argue somebody. But I like that, how you're

intellectually honest, though, a guy you've always been that way, you'll take on the tough issues,

“you know, say, "Hey, this is hard stuff. Let's dig in. Hold my earrings." I think that's”

that we need people that are willing to do that. And we also need people who are like the nutty uncle, happy grandfather balloon guy. And it's a, and it's a job title that I would just am so delighted to take on. Like, I'm just going like, "Yeah, let's do that. I want to do more and more of what is, and it comes from the scriptures, like, kind of called to his friends to live a life worthy of the calling, you've received." Yeah. Instead of like me trying to act like some guy in Portland

with an attitude, I'm like, "I'm just not that guy. I'm not smart enough to be that guy. I'm not virtuous

enough to be that guy." So instead of vilifying him, I want to say, "Man, what a creative guy to do

that." Now, that wouldn't be the way I'd read the room and do it, but I just tip my head to all the beauty that that person is releasing in the world. And that just takes all the bile out of the back of my mouth. Like it just, and what I want to do is like this whole idea of not just identifying with Christ, but actually like living into this hungry 36 strange naked and people in jail. Like, so that's it. I'm, you ought to come with me, Sky. I'm in San Quentin every three weeks.

I've been there ten years, which is longer than some of the guys in my class have been there, but not as long as other man's and family members have been there. I'll actually take you up on that. I'm in California with some regularity. And if there's an opportunity to piggyback

“with you on to one of those ships, I'm in. I'll do it. Oh yeah, yeah. And I think the whole idea is,”

I thought that was like doing a solid for people who are hungry, you're thirsty, you're sick, or straight, or naked. But actually, these guys, they teach me so much. I'm not just being generous, generous. They're like, they're commitment to me as a person. They're care for me. I'll get five calls a week from guys that's ain't Quentin. I got friends. I haven't heard from in six months. I don't think that thinks about either one of them. But I'm just so delighted that

I'm one of a small circle of friends that they have, and they can call me up and just talk about nothing in particular. I love that. I don't like that. That's a good British, something I

also wanted to talk to you about. Back in 2018, you wrote everybody always. The subtitle of

the book is becoming love in a world full of setback and difficult people. In the book, you say this. Every time I wonder who I should love and for how long I should love them, God continues to whisper to me, everybody always. What do you make of the fact that there's like a growing, influential set of voices in the United States and in the American church that are trying to convince us that qualities like you've just identified are in some way toxic. Empathy is toxic or some

are saying that empathy can be sinful and that we need to constrict the circle of those who are worthy of our care and empathy to those who are truly worthy of our care and empathy. That seems antithetical to everything you say and do and believe. Are you bumping into that messaging at all or is it part of the air you've put between you and all that negativity out there? Yeah, I think I've air get that little. I'm aware of that that people will say this is what they don't want

to tell you at and then insert your orthodontist or your church or you're not, I'm not amused by it, but I just think like wow, that would be really complicated because somebody's going to tell you carrots are bad for you and then that milk isn't good for you and something else like is a carcinogen and you could really if you took it all in you'd be just like so freaked out all the time and it's if you've seen skyd people maybe they're driving in front of you they're driving

like this they're just afraid and they make lousy drivers and then there's other guys like you that are probably like have kind of you know they're just there arms out and that's actually yeah so just say if you we could just chill out a little bit just take it down and not you get

“a puppy if you need to but just like chill out a little bit and then just take a breath and then”

I would rather be student than professor and the I teach at Pepperdide Law School I've been doing that for 15 years and I yet I arrive as a student not as a professor if somebody called me professor Bob I would knew who they were talking about so what if we are showing up with

less in the let me teach you what you got wrong sky or this new thing because it isn't going to work because you're a smart guy and it turns out water's bad like let me know but I don't need to raise awareness what I need to raise up in me is kindness and caring and selflessness and a

“sacrificial life and well that that's what I'm trying to develop because I'm muscle bound”

in some of the other areas I've said this before on the show but as I've gotten around the church in the last couple of years I think the two qualities and there's many more but the two qualities I keep coming back to that I think are in deep need right now are courage and curiosity and that curiosity thing I know permeates a lot again in your books and in your your talks I'm just stunned at how uncurious so many people are and especially those of us who are

followers of Jesus it's like the the world that is open to us through him is more wild and bizarre and mysterious than anything we could imagine and to not be curious about that but to just get locked into your certainty with blinders on just I think it's hurting the church and to inspire people with curiosity as you do and to be open and ask questions and seek to find what's good

“in something and when everyone else is talking about how bad it is it would help us immensely”

if we could oh my gosh I just think about that I'm thinking if you had it cultivated reputation for being the person that would show up and that you're a relatively safe person and you'd show up with an eagerness I curiosity to learn countries where they won't let women learn they've banned that yet some people get together making an underground university and the tapioid say were you teach I'm like well let's talk about that like I just think what would happen

if we started showing up not across the notion but across the street because I got a lot of people that want to go to the end of the world I want to know who's going to go to the end of the street who's going to actually know the names of your neighbors and then care take a genuine interest in them bake them a pie if they don't want a pie I do it's not a mother Teresa said something if you want to change the world go home and love your family and that that would be said be famous

with your family like that idea of just when it happens but then I get it particularly with is you're appealing to like deep thinkers among the broad spectrum of people when you admit like that you want people really want to go to depth so find poetry that like you're ready such a neat poem earlier today it was a I sure messed it up but it think it said something to the effect that

if it was always easy then that'd be simple if it was always challenging that would be easy

and yet I rise to my feet every morning wait entering into the world wondering shall I fix it or just enjoy it and that makes making plans for my day really hard and I just think I just delighted and I'm not a poet I'm not that guy but just delighting in somebody else their expression of life so don't just stain your lane just dabble in all kinds of things and if faith guide your step keep your eyes fixed on Jesus like Hebrews 12 one I'm like a Bible verse guy and yet

know why you're doing what you're doing I write books for the guy at the tire store and I don't put Bible verses and so if you know why you're doing what you're doing is it's going to give you so much confidence to look for virtue okay before we wrap up a question I've had for years that I've

wanted to ask you I need to know if this is true or not but when you were writing your first book

love does is it true that you told the publisher your condition for writing this book was that you had to put your cell phone number at the book I know the numbers there but was is that true that you told the publisher this was a condition yes tell me yeah I don't know if you've heard it but I've gotten two calls even while you and I have been on the phone from the back of the book I

“still get 40 or 50 calls a day and I'm on your 16 that's what I was wondering is that number”

still active oh it's that I've like I've probably taken five or seven already this morning oh my yeah it's awesome okay it's a like that idea of like living a life of constant interruptions

like Jesus somebody who is always pulling on his shirt or getting his attention and

little guy up in a sick and more trees like lunch on you so how do you keep boundaries in all that so that you can be present with your wife and kids and granted like how do you yeah how do you manage all that I think I go crazy my phone was going yeah most people just want

Bob here there'll be like Bob like let me buy a valve so the whole idea of for me that's a good fit for sweet Maria Goff that would not be a good fit for you I think I'm just going to put

your cell phone number at the end of my next book oh do I dare yeah but we got three million people

that have my cell phone number and I think that part of that is pushing against not with militants but resolve that again full circle to that little celebrity thing somebody writes a country western song about a big old dog and a car and then they're not available anymore or they get a bit part of movie and then you got to talk their agent but Jesus didn't have any of that so I'm not advocating for somebody else but for me it's a reminder about 50 times a day about the

power of availability it's like it just lets people know you count you matter you're worthy of

“attention I got nothing but time even though the truth is I don't have everything but time”

I'm just actually like you have got a couple things going but I love the beautiful interruption

it just reminds me of the power of a being available do you you put a limit on how long you'll talk to somebody yeah there you brief calls I'll just say hey only have a minute but hey what kind of do for you and if they start up I say well when I was in the embryo I'm like oh this is going to be a long one and then I'll give them my email address which is [email protected] so I'm because I'm a sneaky guy so I just let people have opportunities to connect with you

and have nothing on the other side the equal side I got notebooks to sell I got nothing I want somebody to show up to if you I'm a pretty easy guy to get a hold of well um so for me that works for the next guy do what live a life worthy of your call yeah that gets us back to the speaking for free

“or not selling books at these events I was speaking recently in Phoenix and um what I'm more of an”

introvert so having to engage with a lot different people over time will drain me although in small doses I love the fact that I'm at these events I'm not there to hawk a book I'm not there to sell something at a table I can just be present with people and engage them and I know I've had some really really meaningful interactions over the years with people at those events I don't think I'm prepared to give them my cell phone number but um I know it's meaningful to them often and it's

meaningful to me and to have that space not be a commercial transaction is really valuable um and so for you to do that over the phone I guess is a similar and then also the idea that we don't need to trash everybody else just because we have something that works for us if you're just out there earning down everybody's ideas that doesn't make you like an intellect that makes you an arsonist and we just don't need to burn down somebody's ideas because we have something that works for us

“you don't have to say everybody ought at whatever and if you're not available you should feel bad”

that's just like go do you like that for us and I like that idea to keep your eyes on your own paper remember they told you that like just keep your eyes so much just on you and Jesus and I'm not trying to get on the same page with everybody else I'm trying to get on my page me and Jesus I believe I'm a pretty button down conservative guy in that approach and so orthodox that I

just believe God loves everybody we're all tied for first and last depending on how you see things

and I just like if we could just chill out a little bit not go light on doctrine but just go so big on our theology of theology about loving people with Jesus did so I don't know it worked for him it's a good word to end on Bob Gaw thank you for coming on the show a reminder everybody you're new curriculum and video and book is a journey with Jesus and an interactive guide through the Holy Land with Bob Gaw I look forward to our next connection

yeah that will be fun and tell everybody again your cell phone number uh hi uh you can get me the holy post website all right everybody we're not all like you but that's okay like you said you do you right keep your eyes on your paper all right until next time Bob thanks for being with us all right thanks buddy the holy post podcast is a production of holy post media produced by Mike Straylow editing by Seth Gorvet help us create more thoughtful Christian media by subscribing to holy

post plus at holypost.com slash plus also be sure to leave a review on Apple podcast so more people can discover thoughtful Christian commentary plus ukulele and occasional but news visit holypost.com for show notes news stories holy post merchandise and much much more