The Parenting Shift Nobody Prepares You For (Introducing The In-Between Years)

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side to learn more about equip's eating disorder treatment. That's equip.health/goodinside. There's a moment when your child starts changing, emotionally, physically, relationally, and suddenly the instincts that guided you so well when they were young, the ones that you practiced year after year and honed in on. Now all of a sudden they don't land the same way anymore.

“You reach for their hair the way you always have, they flinch, why you're touching me?”

You say, come on, tell me what's going on, just here to listen, and they say, stop interrogating me. You don't even know they have that word in their vocabulary. I mean, really, your kid is using the word interrogate for truly benign interest in their life.

Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing as parents being interested in their life? Then you have this moment where you say, okay, I'm going to try something different, I'm going to go back to that warm voice. I used when they were little, and they roll their eyes at you, and they say, please don't talk to me like that, or you are so cringe.

That's the one I get all the time.

“Now, to be clear, I'm laughing as I talk about some of these moments, but they can really”

feel awful. It makes you feel rejected and sad, and it also can make you feel angry. Like, I have parented you for over a decade, and I'm sorry. What is this? And it makes sense of under that anger. Maybe late at night is also hurt. I miss my little kid. This is a conversation about that transition. Those hard moments in making sense of all of it as much as we can together. This is a conversation about what happens when you move into

the tween and teen years, which yes, seem to start earlier than ever these days. A stage when parenting asks something so different from us. I am joined today by someone who is very much part of the good and side family, and very

much tuned into that moment, and someone who I always want to talk to about the tween

and teen struggles in my house. Dr. Cheryl Ziggler. Dr. Cheryl has been on the show a couple times before, and every single time, parents write in saying, "Oh, my goodness, she gets it more of her." Cheryl's a clinical psychologist who spent years working closely with parents of tweens and teens, helping them understand what's actually happening underneath behavior, and helping them figure out how to stay anchored through a stage that can feel

very disorienting, and yes, very personal. Today's conversation is also special because it marks the beginning of something new for us, but Dr. Cheryl is launching a new podcast here at Good Inside. One specifically for parents of tweens and teens, and she'll be launching the puberty, tween, and teen vertical in the Good Inside app. So many of you have asked us to kind of grow alongside

you, and we listen, and now we are. Alright, Cheryl, you have been on this podcast a bunch of times, but for anyone who is hearing

you for the first time, let's just start introducing yourself, and just share a little

bit about the stuff that's interesting to you, the age groups you focus on, let's go there. So I'm a psychologist, and I've been working with kids and families for a long time now, and I work with tweens and teens mostly. I used to work with the youngers, but sometimes we move our interests, and I just sort of focusing on tweens, I would say like 10 years ago or so, when I realized like, even I thought 12 and under are just kids, and 13 and

over are teens, and like, that's fine, you know, and then I realized like, wait, there's this little, there's this small gap in the middle, and it could be like 8 to 12 or 9 to 13 ish, where that term tween really, really does make sense, like that in between or kind

that, like, I'm one foot in childhood, and I'm one foot in adolescence, and like, I don't

know which day it were the foot is, but like the middle is always messy. Yeah, you know,

one of my favorite business books, right, is called the messy middle, right, and that the middle is always messy. So on that note, you've also worked so much with parents of

“kind of kids of those messy middle childhood years. What tends to catch them by surprise?”

I think what happens is they feel like, wait, I actually, I, I'm starting to feel confident, or I have just started to feel competent, and now of a sudden, like, who is this kid? Like, I thought I knew, I knew how to calm you. I knew what you liked. I know what your favorite dessert is, or what your favorite teacher is, and all of a sudden you come home, and it's not one day, but it can feel like, and then one day they're like,

I don't even like that anymore. Yes, or like, oh, no, that, you know, bandera, that's, that's like dumb. I'm not into that. If you're like, wait, what? Wait, when are you going to give me the memo? Like, this was your favorite, I swear last week. Yes, I think what you

just said is so powerful. You are starting to feel competent as a parent, and it can

feel like in one moment, kind of your kid change, your kid is kind of quote gone, but you feel like your competence is gone. Like, the feelings that parents have in that shift are are what? Loss, loss is the first one, and some confusion, and sometimes, some anger, and sometimes just some sadness. Like, the house can all of a sudden feel quieter. The biggest thing in terms of like that feeling of loss is, you lose the ability to feel like, wait,

like, I'm actually the leader, and I set the rules, and it's like, no, oh, now I need an invitation to go into your room. I almost need an invitation to hug you, and in a way, even talk to you sometimes, like, they're having their own experience, and I'm no longer

eyes in my role too, as a mom, like, the leader of it. Like, I'm setting the tone. We're

going to go have pizza and do this tonight. Like, a lot of times they're setting the tone, like, no, I'm just going to be, and I'm just going to do this. Yeah, and I'm picturing the galaxy and wishing I had more science knowledge. The thing that comes to mind is, like, when they're young, they're kind of a planet that orbits around us. They gaze at us. And even when they're annoyed or you and they're melting down, you know, they

need you. They're like, looking at you, you set the tone, you're the thing they orbit

“around. And it can feel very sudden. I love the words you said. I think, not because”

they're pleasant, but because they're real loss, sadness, anger, rejection, right? Because you've gotten used to eight years, 10 years, 12 years of this relationship and the relationship even if it went through down ups and downs, I think had the same model. When they're younger, presence is really important, but they're kind of all over the place. Then they're jumping and they're skipping and they're putting on a show for you and they're playing

very active. And then when they become like a tween, and when I say that, I mean, they're probably starting puberty. They're having hormonal shifts. They're confused themselves. What they need is like, they don't need to play made anymore. They really need the steady person to almost go back to and be like, wait, who am I again? And then your presence reminds them and they're like, okay, that's why it was. And now I'm off to go figure out

who I am now. Yes. And that's like a big shift. And I don't know, I think we prepare anybody for that. I think parents are more prepared for the teens and what they perceive is going

“to be a really hard time. Lots of defiance. But the twins, I think that's why we feel”

lost. It's like, oh, my gosh, I was robbed of my time with my kid. You know, you and I as clinical psychologists think a lot about attachment, right? And the attachment is all about a kids relationship with a secure base, right? And so before it was kind of like your kid and the secure base, which is you are really close. And actually goal of that secure base is that they load up on enough connection on enough confidence that now they

can actually do the job that they need to do and they get older, which is to explore. But when that exploration starts, which is usually exploration of, I don't like to watch movies because they're like, maybe I don't. I don't know. Let me see, right? I want to be alone. Oh, let me see. I know for me, too, it's so easy as that base. Like, well, you move here. I'm going to retiree. And we, and then we kind of remove the the anchor that they don't

tell us they need, but talk about that. Do they still really need? They really need it. They really need it. It just feels different. So like, like, you're talking and I'm tracking you. So I want it. Yes, there's, there's one parent who might be like, I'm feeling rejected. So now, like, I'm going to kind of reject you in my own way. It's like, we're going

it. You're younger brother. He still loves me. I'm like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, they'll

still give me hugs. Like, it's so, yes, it's like, passive aggressive, like, basically,

it's so mad at you. There's that version. Then there's the other version, which is you're getting away. And I'm going to run after you. And the more you try to get away with me, the more I'm going to try to pull you back, run pursue, run pursue. Yes. And so I do want to say, the more you do that, the more they tend to run, even harder, even faster. And what used to feel like, oh, that's so supportive. Like, maybe I'm seven and

like, I had a hard day and Nick, you lean into them. And you're like, let's go home and like, let's talk about it. And let's like eat cookies and milk. And you know, like, they would have loved that. Like a seven year old may love that or a kid before puberty. Well,

love that. You do that to a kid who's in puberty and trying to get away from you. And it's

like, you're so annoying. And you don't even know what I need anymore. And it's like, oh, my gosh. And so, and you really might not know what they need actually. You're doing it. It comes out of love. I'm going to pursue you. I'm going to pursue you. I'm going to try how about we try this. Do you want to go here? Do you want to do this? And so instead,

“though, what you have to do is honor the process. Yeah. And it's so, it's so painful. It's such a”

new language. Because I think, look, and we all in some ways get comforted by binaries. Because it's simple, right? And it's like, okay, well, if you don't want me to run after you, I guess I'm just going to go out every night because you don't even need me at night. And it's it's so hard to learn this new language of no and no, right? Like, there's something in the middle. It makes me think, like, I'm going to run after you is one. The other extreme is fine. Forget it.

And in the middle, and maybe I'm curious if this is what you mean about kind of honoring the process is like, I'm here. I'm like, I'm here. I'm not banging down your door. I'm not locking myself out of the house. And I'm around. I'm waiting a little more. I'm available a little more. And I know in the work I've done in that age group, even if that doesn't mean your kid comes to you for that hug on the couch, it matters. Do you see that, too? That just don't

“hear that middle? Oh, yeah. I think it's almost one of the essential roles. And which is really”

hard because it might feel like for at times. And again, this is at times because this is a roller coaster, because at times they're like, oh, my gosh, I'm going to sleep with you tonight. And you might get my stuff. You can be like, build a fort and you're like, wait, yesterday, you didn't even want me anywhere in the vicinity of you. And today. And so that's part of the roller coaster. I do actually think, like, I know like honor the process. What what I really mean by that is like, understand what's

literally happening inside their brain. Oh, and body. So can you can you tell us that? Yeah, like, it's like, what parents think of as my kid. I don't know them anymore. Or they're so different. Or they're trying out these new roles. What that actually is happening inside is there's a restructuring of the brain. And the brain is pumping out hormones. Things are growing. Things are happening. Moots are happening. And they really don't know how to handle them. And so think of your

kid. It's like, if you were watching them try something brand new or really hard puzzle or something

that you've just never seen them do before. And think to yourself, okay, my job here is to observe

them trying to figure out this problem, not to solve it, not to come in and say, oh my gosh, this puzzle piece, it goes right here. I'm here. If you want some help, like maybe on the corners or something, I'm here. But otherwise, I'm going to trust that you're going to figure this out. And it's going to take a really long time. And while you're figuring that out, I'm silently over here trying to figure out how to just watch you. Just I'm going to figure out how to watch you.

And I'm saying the thing that strikes me in your language, I don't know if you realize this is to give parents permission. You don't know how to do this yet with your kid. You're you're also figuring this out. So of course, you are also going to say things like, I and your brother will hug me. And then you're going to pursue and that you're figuring out a new parenting phase too. When they are like, well, I don't even know, I didn't, you know, I didn't make the they didn't

get caught back on the audition or whatever. It's not our job to be like, oh my gosh,

“well, do you want to do like more classes? And you, that's what we want to do. We want to pressure”

that instead to be like, hey, wonder what that's like. I wonder, I'm curious about just reflecting, you seem really disappointed. Like, I know when parents hear this, like, that's it. It's like, yeah, that's it. And it's really hard. My move is, I'm not going to say one word, because I know whatever word it's going to be to it. It's going to, you know, and we do that sometimes, but it might, it's so in some ways, it's harder and simpler. Oh, the socks.

whenever I go into and then what, maybe the answer is always nothing, like, and waiting

“and watching and allowing the next thing to happen, right? Yes. So I want to even bring what”

you just said to life more, because I'm picturing you doing this with your kid. And when you say waiting and watching, that doesn't mean turning around, leaving the rooms, looking at your phone, starting to clean vacuum. Right, presence means like, I'm not going to fill the space with my words and try to make you feel better or distract you. There might be a time to play so up, but probably in this moment, like, I just need to kind of sit here. You might start dinner.

I might start like, pick it up lightly. I'm not going to be though completely distracted. I'm kind of doing it to not make it awkward. Yep. And if they start crying or if they get mad or something that's like, I'm here. Yes. You know, it reminds me, I was just, you know, talking with the group of parents who have deeply feeling kids. And one of the things we talk about with those kids when they have these

huge explosions and being in the room with them, and I'm just going to just do, and it's so hard to access something that helps you embody this type of their not fixing, not pulling away presence. And it was a parent who once said, I imagine being a poted plant, because a room is different with a poted plant. Like a poted plant isn't like doing that much, but like everyone knows a poted plant changes a room. And she said to me, I just say to myself, poted plant, poted plant, poted plant,

poted plant. And there's something similar in that presence. It's not overbearing. It's not fixing.

“It's not withdrawing. And I think that's it applies to this age group too. For me, with three”

teens in the house, I feel like I really do operate as that poted plant. I might hear a conversation going on. I might see, I can tell, something's happening on text or something. And I'm not hovering. Yeah, I want to. I want to know what's going on, but I'm just like there. And just what I think is important is, sometimes you take a concept and we can be taught me to two literals. So for the parent who's like, I can't do that. I'm working or I'm out of the house. Like that's great.

If washing the dishes while your kid is round is not your thing or not possible, all good. You're not disqualified from this, right? It's just about channeling a different way of showing up, right? And playing around with different ways that you can do that. That feel like you. I think even when our kids are young, we make the mistake of using their immediate reaction as a barometer for whether we're doing a good job. Oh, my goodness. Does that not work when you have

a tween in teen? Absolutely. Like, just going along lines ahead, I also had somebody say to me recently,

like, this is just crazy. It was like the second semester. And we got it. We got a note that said,

you need new folders and you know, check your kids' pencil about it. They need new pens like that, kind of school supply refresh. And so the mom was like, so I went to my kid and was like, hey, I got the email. What do you think you need? I don't need anything. She was like, okay, what if I just get the things? And I just like put them out. And then they can just pick for them. And so next time I saw him. So how did it work? It's great. Took two folders. You know, took the loose leaf paper.

But it was like in that moment, the kid just could not accept like moms coming to the rescue, like, and even, and again, even those six months from now, they might be like, can we go school shopping? Right. One of the things I think also matters is how do we show up this way and appreciate this kind of new hormone driven stage, maybe, without totally losing myself? Because there might be a moment

“where you say after, look, you're getting older. And the truth is pretty soon, I'm going to ask”

you to be responsible for your supplies, right? Because I'm not going to always just make it better,

right? But also, like, there are going to be moments that I still want to help and I can. And you might not like it, but the way you spoke to me yesterday, I just know you can do better than that. Like, it, because I think parents still need permission to not feel like, like, like, uh, oh, so am I am my, am I a pod at plant slash punching bag? Is that how for my kid or for me? So what, how do you, you know, how do you think about that? Yeah, I'm so glad you, you said that.

I think a lot of parents say things like, all of a sudden, I feel like I'm walking on eggs. Oh, I'm like, my 11 year olds. It's wrong with this picture. And I, I can so resonate with that. And I think that the way you just said that is absolutely, I mean, that's even nicer. Maybe then I would say it. I would just be like, you can have your feelings, but it's actually not. Okay, to talk to me that way and I don't want to be spoken to that way.

Maybe we can do a redo. I'm a big into, like, let's do a redo. And you will just do that tonight.

And I think that's really is important because again, they aren't doing these things on purpose. That's right. They're not being disrespectful on purpose. They're not rejecting you on purpose. They haven't figured out yet. Think about how hard it is to go, okay, somehow something, my body, something I need to separate from you. And I need to be my own person. And I have my own thoughts. And I can change my mind about things.

But how do I, how do I do that without just kicking you to the curb? And so just if we can just think about how hard it is for them, they don't know quite what's happening. Yeah, or why.

You know, one of the things that you always talk about, and I still do with couples in my

practice who are working on their partnership is just this baseline idea that it is a very hard thing to say something that is equally truthful to me as it is respectful of you.

“There's not a lot of adults work great at balancing that. Can I say something that feels very true?”

I need space. But it is equally respectful. That's like a life practice. And so yeah, it's true. When my nine-year-old is in this conundrum, I'm supposed to be independent. I want to get older. I want to separate. I still need my mom for school supplies. They're probably not going to articulate that in the most sophisticated way. I also see the other side of that where people are like, what's wrong with me? Like, oh, I obviously am doing something wrong. I have people say that to me

all the time. I don't know what I'm doing. Obviously, I'm doing cool early. I'm doing something wrong here. I don't know what to do. I'm a failure. I'm trying hard at something, but like, I keep failing.

And so there's that other side where, yeah, maybe at first it's like, what's wrong with them?

But what I find is so much and it turns on ourselves. Yes, but wrong with me. Maybe the answer is this doesn't have to be anyone's fault. And it could just be like, hey, what's going on? What do I need to feel a more empowered, a more clarity in the situation? And I can spend my energy there instead of kind of fault, right? Absolutely. I mean, I know, I know, like, to me, that's a win, right? You know? You can't do something that seems like so rude. And instead of like going in there

and, you know, reacting, where you just sort of like, take a breath? Yeah. And you're just like, hey, I know you don't normally talk to me like this. You don't normally act like this. So I'm just wondering, you know, yeah, I'm wondering what's going on or I'm thinking that today maybe wasn't all such a great day. Yep, but man, taking a breath and thinking like, maybe you're like, well,

my kid always talks like that. Okay, if they've been talking like that a lot lately, like,

yeah, it's been happening kind of a lot lately and I know you to be different or I, you know, you're normally such a sweet kid inside like it always shifts things when it's like we're in a hard moment and then I remind you of something that's totally genuine that is like that goodness. 'Cause it then lets them know like you still see my goodness. That's right. Even though like, I don't even actually know why I just have to you. Remember, there's that piece for them

that they're like, if you do say, let's say, like, what's wrong with you? And they're just like, I don't know, nothing. Really, they're just like, I really don't know. I don't know why

“you're so annoying. I don't know. I think it's like kind of the ultimate act of love is when”

you see kind of the good inside someone else in the moment that they actually are struggling to access it themselves, right? Yeah. Speaking about those moments, and we're thinking about the moment that a kid does something that, you know, we probably know on some level they would regret, but maybe they're in shame, they're stuck whatever it is. What about the moments we do the thing, we yell, we snap, we say horrible words to our kid. We come down harshly on them about something

that, you know, I don't know. Maybe it's more about a hard day we had or whatever it is. I can, I don't know, the power of repair with those middle childhood years, teen years, talk about that. I mean, I just want to go back to like, when someone's listening right now and they're just like, I don't actually even really know what you mean. I'm apology. Is that what you mean? And it's like, it's actually a little bit different than apology.

“Apology can be part of it. Yeah. I think repairs like it's, it is a little bit of an art because”

you're not making an excuse. Like, hey, you know what? I had a really hard day today and so when I came home and I snapped at you, that really wasn't about you. It was about my hard day. Right? That's pretty good repair. It's just, you don't want to externalize it. Yeah. I mean, like, you don't want to just be like, okay, so every time she has a hard day, she's just sledge come home and yell at me, you know, and they're just like, it allows you to drop deeper, right? So just like,

I'm just going to drop deeper. So I want to say, I'm going to imagine everyone's going to lose their patience or not be their best self. And then be it's like going back and just being like, you know, it's actually, it's not okay. And I realize I've been, I have been working a lot and it doesn't allow me to show up for you the way that I wish that I could and I'm really sorry for that. Mm. And so tomorrow, right? Then you can end it with like tomorrow, I'm going to maybe

what I need or I'm going to go grab dinner with a friend. So I'm not going to be home tomorrow. It's a little bit later because I want to come home and be the best version of myself for you.

“Yes. And I think without basically feeling myself, I'm not going to be able to get there and just”

saying I'm sorry and blaming it on a hard day isn't enough. I think the difference between

a repair versus kind of a apology. I always think in a apology. It's just trying to shut a

conversation down. I'm sorry. I yelled, we're good, right? And it's just like you feel it shut it down. And you want us to go quickly. A good repair opens up something new. And that's the thing you're missing anyways. Like that connection, right? What would that mean to say? I crush that, right? And if you think about that, it's not just about giving something to your kid. It's actually giving about something to you too. What's better than being like, I crushed that parenting moment.

I am so proud. And we're all only proud of a moment that's hard. None of us are too proud of anything easy. So I'm sorry, I yelled. And that wasn't okay. And I'm sure that felt bad, right? Like, and you can say, wow, it's so weird. I had one of my hardest and best parenting moments in the same day the same week, right? And I just want to underscore what you're saying and writing for our twins and teens especially. It's like saying, hey, that secure base is still here. Still the

anchor, you need it more than ever because you're doing more exploration than ever, right? And again,

“they might roll their eyes, time, but it matters so much. It does. And if I think if someone's listening”

and they're like, hey, I want to apply this myself, I'll just share what when people are practicing repair and come back and tell me. I feel like a common theme is they say, I was able to say to my

kid, hey, I'm really sorry. I've never parented a 12 year old before or I've never parented you at 12

before, right? So even if you have older kids love that, I've never parented you at 12, which doesn't make it okay that I yelled. I'm sorry. And I'm learning alongside you, right? It makes me think about taking a moment for us, anyone listening to, to think about your own parent. And I think, right, I couldn't say, we're always trying to help people hold multiplicity. Multiple things can be true. And I think something that's like hard to hold at once is kind of accountability

and compassion. Your mod, your repair had both. Like, I'm being accountable for what I did. And I even have self-compassion and compassion for you. Like, we've never done this before. And

“I think that a lot of us have a lot of feelings about our parents and how they raised us.”

And to even think about our own parents, like, oh, my mom never parented me when I was 14

until that moment. My dad never handled me at 16 until I was 16. And that doesn't take away the pain you felt or feeling unseen. We can hold that reality next to that compassion. They can just both be there. And I think that's just so powerful. I think so too. And I just want to say that I think this stage that we're talking about, like, puberty, being a tween. Oh, they're not quite like the super independent defiant teen. But they're

not my baby anymore. I think that provokes a lot of feelings emotions, memories and parents. And I've gotten tons of feet back around. Yeah, whoa, I didn't know that was going to come up for me or these memories have come up for me and haven't thought about that in so many years. So I think it's really common. Cheryl, if a parent is listening, and they're just thinking, I love my kid, but I feel completely unprepared for this stage. What do you want to say to them?

Every parent has the ability to sort of say, I've never done this stage before, maybe like, I'm kind of scared of it or I'm not really looking forward to it. And I'm really excited for what could be. Hmm. I think that's the reframe. This doesn't have to be a rupture in the relationship. This doesn't have to be, oh, you know, my babies like gone on loss and they don't need me or if really doesn't have to be that way. I think if we can go into it curious and again, even with some

excitement, there are moments. I think even when as hard as this stage can be where I think a parent should feel that sense of like, wow. Yeah. Look at this thing happening. Like, they're 12 and they want to take a babysitting class. Yeah. Like, oh my gosh, it wasn't that long ago.

that's celebrate that.

“Listeners, this conversation is a doorway into a new stage of parenting. And for us,”

it's also the beginning of a new podcast if you're listening and realizing, oh, this explains

why things feel harder lately. I want you to know you're not behind and you're not failing. Your child is growing up. And that growth asks for a shift, not just from them, but from you, too.

“And you don't have to figure this all out alone. Our new podcast is called The In between Years”

With Me, Dr. Cheryl. We're making a space for parents of teens and twins who want to understand

what's really happening in this stage emotionally, socially and physically. And how to stay connected even when things feel messy, tense, or unfamiliar. We'll talk about identity, independence,

conflict, repair, boundaries, and trust. Not as tactics to manage kids, but as ways of showing

up more steadily in relationships that are evolving. You'll hear stories and approaches grounded in research findings. I'll share my stories from my own years of clinical practice and teaching. And you'll hear the voices and stories of real parents and teens about their challenges and their wins. If you're already part of the Goodinside community, this is an extension of one or belief. Kids and their parents are good inside. And we don't need to be perfect to be deeply

impactful. If you're new here, we're really glad you found us. We hope you'll let us know what you think and what you want to hear. See our show notes for ways to get in touch and follow me on Instagram, at Dr. Cheryl at Goodinside. Okay, zooming out. This in-between stage feels hard because it is

“hard. And if you remember nothing else, remember this. They act like they don't need you. They”

still need you. I'll see you next week.