679: Kat Cole - From Hooters Waitress to $500M CEO, You're Interviewing for Your Next Job Every Day, Learning vs. Ego, The Four Key Mindsets for Senior Leaders, and The Journey of Who You Become

I am your host Ryan Hawke. Thank you so much for being here.

“Go to learningleiter.com for show notes of this and all podcast episodes.”

Go to learningleiter.com. Now on to the night's featured leader, one of my favorites. It's Cat Cole CEO of AG1. When she was hired at AG1 a few years ago,

they were doing 160 million in revenue.

Now, they're doing more than 500 million bucks a year. Before that, she was president of cinema and focus brands. Before that, she started as a Hooters waitress, who earned an MBA for four her undergraduate degree. I do not know anyone else who has done that.

We first recorded together in December 2015, more than a decade ago. It's episode number 78, one of my all-time favorites. We chose to do it again. During this conversation, we discussed the questions she asked

and what she listens for in executive interviews. And how they reveal whether someone can actually do the thing or just talk about it. I love that cat took us inside the room for this.

And then the two questions she asked before every career move

that have nothing to do with money or title. I think this would be helpful for you. And then how she adapted her communication style at Hooters to neutralize opposition without confrontation.

And what it taught her about leading in any environment. I think the story could be super helpful for someone. Especially when you may find yourself in a situation where somebody opposes you for no reason at all, which is the case for cat.

Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy my conversation with cat Cole. This episode is brought to you by my friends at Insight Global. Insight Global was a staffing and professional services company dedicated to being the light to the world around them.

“If you need to hire one person, hire a team of people,”

or transform your business through talent or technical services, Insight Global's team of 30,000 people around the world have the hustle and grit to deliver. Hiring can be tough, but hiring the right person can be magic. Visit insightglobal.com/learningleader today to learn more.

That's insightglobal.com/learningleader. Cat, it's so good to see you. Welcome back on the Learning Leader Show. Thanks for having me. 11 years ago, I mean, 2015 was our first conversation.

That's wild to me to think about. That's bananas. I know. Well, speaking of your life and what's changed, you go, join A.G.1.

Correct me if these numbers aren't fully right.

I believe when you join, the revenue is 160 million bucks and 2021.

Yep. And now are you guys doing like 600 plus a year million? Yeah, we just, you know, for what we communicate, we're doing over half a billion in revenue for several years and profitable.

So it's been a pretty wild ride. We've overthrexed the business. I mean, that's an insane amount of growth.

“What do you feel like has been the key or the key to that?”

It's the product, man. Because there's so many times that we weren't doing things as well as we could be certain marketing approaches or even channels where we were in one channel for 15 years, only data C, 80% of retail is in brick and mortar retail.

So we're doing that volume in less than 20% of where the transactions happen. And so arguably, we were limiting ourselves in a lot of ways. And so what that points to is a lot of people who love the product and keep buying it for a long time

and who tell their friends. There is no way you get to those numbers in that short of a time without customers who make this a very serious consistent part of their lives and have for years, right?

So there's compounding revenue. There's compounding growth year over year from existing customers from previous years and then they tell their mom or they tell their sister or they tell their husband and they tell their aunt.

And then yes, we still keep investing and try to get better at traditional business marketing and growth. But you don't get our level of growth and success at that scale.

It's really hard to keep growing at that scale without people being really happy with the product. So that's it.

but that's the one variable that you can't remove and get the same outcome. You can't market your way out of that not being true. Right. It's almost like with book sales.

The author can see the market, but atomic habits doesn't happen or the psychology of money doesn't happen

if the book isn't amazing, right?

Because that's really what's going to cause at the spread is word of mouth

“and it feels like that's what you've done a good job with.”

Yeah, totally. It's trusted recommendations. And yeah, it's a really good analogy when I think about atomic habits. I think about a great book.

You know, you get people going on podcasts. You get people talking about it. And that totally spreads the word. But where the real volume comes from is people who are just telling their friends

or recommending it to their teams and their companies. And that's where real scale in sustainable growth comes from. I read all of your blog posts.

I know you stopped publishing as you become CEO.

So fancy, less time. But I would love if you started that back up by the way, just selfishly. But anyway, one of them was that I could be, you're not going to do that more.

I know, I said, I miss it. It's like so crazy. Working kids and all of that. And I do miss crystallizing and sharing thoughts in writing.

Do you write to yourself but keep it to yourself now or just with your company or or no, you just kind of slow down on the writing. Just slow down on the writing. And still do open thinking time

and reflection time and my form of journaling where I'm just putting thoughts down. But I'm not writing in any way to publish. And I do miss it.

And I do know it also helps continually crystallize

thinking so you become a better thinker when you force yourself to write in a way that is most digestible to people.

“But gosh, I think the last time I published”

was, and now I just call it my archive. Because there's nothing active there. Was maybe 21 or 22. And that's when my daughter, my daughter got really, really sick in 2020 and then again, dealing with it through 21.

And so between that changing roles, having two kids at that time under four. That was like something's got to go. And so that was it. And I do believe the things that I did take the time

to publish are timeless. And as relevant today as they were when I wrote them. One of the things you've written about was a framework and exercise for making decisions both at work as well as for your career.

And you made the decision to go to AG1. And you also made the decision again to stay there and get the elevator roll. Now you're running the whole company as the CEO. I am curious to hear your framework and decision-making matrix.

I guess for why you went there and then why you stayed and taken the CEO job. I have two frameworks. One that's published in my archive, Substack, that is helping people in particular

with career decisions. I mean, it's life decisions, but mostly the people who were coming to me over a couple of decades as it relates to that piece of content where the people saying what should I do.

Or me watching the people I was leading navigate, changes in their lives, what they thought they wanted, helping them get to what they really wanted. Was it income? Was it title? Is it ego? Is it sense of growth? Is it learning?

So one of the frameworks is this idea that between financial needs, your ability to learn or contribute and your ego or optics, that there are questions you can ask yourself

about a particular moment opportunity or situation, that will help you be a bit sharper in what you actually want, and what is actually best for you, versus what just looks like what's best next on the surface. That's one framework.

The other is just these two questions I would ask myself over time, and that is my work done here, and can someone else do what the company needs next better than I can? That's a quick exercise.

“The first one you need to think and write it down,”

and you know, might take some time, and it's why I put together a little cheat and some columns for people to use as a starter document. But the other super quick, and I remember, you know,

as a hooters for 14 years, had nine or 10 different roles when I was there, becoming an executive about halfway through, and there were many times I had the opportunity to leave, or that something would happen in the company that would make me wonder,

should I leave? Even if I didn't have an active role that I was being recruited for it, just like, oh, this isn't good, or I wonder where the company is going. I'm not sure if this is right for me,

Is my work done here? Do I just feel like I've done all I can? I've left it on the field, and then could someone else do a better job for what the company needs next?

Not now, but next. Because if you're taking a moment to consider, what you're really asking about is remarrying the role, remarrying the person, the company,

“and so can someone else do what the company needs next better than I can?”

For many years in that window, the answer to at least one of those questions was no. No, my work isn't done here, or no, there isn't someone, honestly, candidly,

if I'm trying to be objective, that could come in and do what the company needs next better than me. But if the answer was yes to one of those, then that would guide me toward pushing a change. Of change in my role,

a change in the way I showed up, a change in myself, that helped me then find that next. Of course I wanted a next opportunity, but sometimes it was right there in the company where I already was,

where I already had institutional knowledge and relationships and traction, but something was changing in the company, or something was changing in me, that meant the role or the construct needed.

My work here is done, and someone else could do a better job for what the company needs next. So then I went to cinema, and then I went to within the same company, but became the COO and president over nine presidents,

over the multi-billion dollar company,

and that was another version of that, where I could have stayed running brands, and being a president of brands that people knew, and that were big, and that felt interesting and enticing,

but yet being the COO of the parent company, while the parent company was less known, if I were to say, "Senabon, people would go, "Oh, or anti-ns." Oh my gosh, if I say focus brands, they're like, "What's that?"

Yet it was a bigger role, a more complex role, that the ego part, right, I had to consider. There was a moment where I had the opportunity to go run multiple franchise brands or run a new entrepreneurial division within the company.

Finally, it was similar, but the ego, the optics, and how much I would be stretched, were very different. And I chose that different role, right, lesser known, smaller team,

bigger stretch, more learning,

“but that's what bridged me into consumer package goods,”

which ultimately wasn't ingredient, and me being ready years later, for something like the role at AG1. I heard, tell me this true, that the founder of AG1 heard you on a podcast,

and said, "Man, she's amazing,

"and then asked for an introduction "and Saahobu, who's been on the show, was able to help make that introduction. Is that how this happens? Is that true?

That is true. He heard me on a couple podcasts back to back, and he knew Saahil, and asked if Saahil knew me, and he did, and Saahil made the intro.

And that was February or March of 2021. And I just so happened to be taking time off. I had been at focus brands, running those companies for 10 years, and my daughter had been very sick. I've led the company through COVID.

My mom had breast cancer. I mean, there was so much, so much life that I, my husband and I navigated, that I was ready for a break. I've been running businesses,

like operating really in operation since I was a teenager, and it felt right to take a beat. Although I didn't take much of a beat, because I started advising founders,

and Saahil knew that,

“so he figured it would be an appropriate introduction.”

And little did he know I had been a customer of what was then called athletic greens for two years. So I didn't know much about the company, but I loved the product. So when the founder reached out and said,

"Will you help?" We're growing, and I need more leadership expertise. I need more branding expertise. I need more operational chops. In the company, I was like, "Of course, I love the product.

I'd love to help you." But that's all I thought it was. I thought it was just an advisory role among many that I had with growth stage founder led businesses. And then after a few months,

he, like any good founder, was like, "Come help me, built this. We need you. We'll be better if you're here." And I paused for a moment and thought,

and talked to my husband about it. And thought, "I don't know, it's small. Everything I've done is so much bigger." It wasn't small, right?

160 million and revenue is not small,

but it is infinitesimally small, compared to the multi-billion dollar businesses I had run. And so it was less about it being small, or less known, and more about,

is this the highest and best use of my skills. Is scale my thing, and will I be as helpful and impactful in a team of, at the time, I think it was 70 or 80 people.

And I'd run the department's bigger than that whole company. And so I just wasn't sure, but I was intrigued and interested in passionate, about health, about wellness. I'd been on my own health and nutrition journey,

because of my mom, because of having kids later in life at miscarriages in between.

and definitely the target customer.

“So my husband reflected back to me when I was considering this.”

He's like, "You're already acting like you run the company, too. You're a passionate customer. You have already advised the team, so you know you're learning who you're going to be working with. This isn't a cold start,

and how baller is it to get in, and still at the ground floor, when really you've been running companies that were already scaled,

getting in early is incredible for many reasons.

And so he helped me go, "Okay, questioning this is ridiculous. Of course I should do this. It feels right. It is right.

And so I jumped in and became President COO and joined the founder in November of 21. And we raised a big round, valued the company at over a billion dollars, which was pretty wild for,

you know, a business of that scale. And then as time went on, the founder stepped back, I stepped in, became CEO. Really refounded and evolved the business

to go from a single product, single channel, to a multi-product, multi-channel, and again, we've three X to the business and four years and profitably. I had a mentor because the name's Rex Caswell,

and he said, "You are interviewing, he hired me for my first ever real job after I got done playing college football." And he said, "You are interviewing for your next job, every single day,

never, ever forget that with everything that you do."

And I was a little young and I really get it. But that's what that sounds like to me. You go on a podcast, probably to have a good conversation with a few people just like we're doing right here.

And you have no idea, though. You have no idea who might be listening. You have no idea who might say, "I need to meet her." Right? She could maybe help me.

So I'd love for here to you riffle on this idea of your interviewing for your next job every day. That makes me think of two tracks.

“One track is this idea that life is like a series of these,”

whatever you want to call it, like the butterfly effect or dominos or one thing leads to another leads to another, and there are very few true shortcuts in life. And so I have a deep appreciation,

maybe not interviewing for the next role, but that whatever I'm doing now, that choice of time, that tone of voice, that decision, how I show up or don't, that creates an impact that that leads to a experience

and a belief in people's actions and then results. And that keeps happening and eventually leads to something and something and something else. So it makes me think of that that it's just generally true in life, the kindness to someone in the airport,

and what they then go do as a result. The extension of a caring note to someone who's struggling, and you're all these stories right of people who are in very dark places or who are having a lot of challenges and a teacher, a friend, a stranger. Someone said, "I see something in you or gives a compliment

or is kind and it derails someone out of that dark place." And then the other is true very opportunistically. Like something that's good, there's an opportunity and because you're the one who sent the email or you're the one who made the phone call or you're the one who made the ask,

you're the one who got the opportunity. So the idea of what you do today is interviewing for your next thing, makes me think of that truth that just general truth in life and how much that motivates me to put good in the world. Even in tough moments and tough conversations,

it's just remembering that. The other thing it makes me think of more specifically to careers and opportunity.

“I remember a time when I was an executive at Hooters”

and I was young. I was 26 when I became a vice president of that company doing about a hundred million in revenue and most of my peers were in their 50s and 60s. So maybe a couple in their early 40s.

And so literally people that were my peers had been in business longer than I'd been alive. That age gap and life stage, more importantly than age and life stage gap

was always a much more noticeable difference for me than gender.

Even though I was the only woman in the board room for a long time. And so I remember one particular leader who was in his early 60s. So he was definitely the top of that in business longer than I'd been alive. And he wasn't a big fan of me being in the role. He made it known in very subtle ways.

He thought we're subtle. We're actually not so subtle in private conversations. He would say things like oh, she's too much of a cheerleader. Not sure why she's in this role. And it would get back to me because I had such trusted relationships

deep within the company. And I remember being hurt by that and being frustrated.

But I can change me.

And I went in while I didn't confront him and say I heard you said XYZ right away.

Eventually I would. I just changed myself. I thought am I too much of a cheerleader? Am I too excited? Maybe there is something about my approach that's not helping me.

Obviously with relationships here. So I went into his office and I spoke more slowly. And I asked him questions instead of made exciting statements. And at the end of that meeting where I changed my communication style,

“I remember him standing up and as we were walking out and saying something like this”

has been a good chat. And while I wanted to roll my eyes so hard they'd hit the back of my head. Because like it's no different. The contents no different. It was like the work got done.

What became true over time is he never became my fan.

But he was no longer a detractor and a negative speaker and an obstacle. So I had effectively neutralized and completely ridiculous and immature on professional dynamic. But it allowed the work to get done. So your question, the second track of thought I have in the reason I'm sharing that story is it also is about control what you can control.

Sometimes it's not about everyone loving you and bowling everyone over. It is about what can I do to get the work done? I wasn't violating my values. I wasn't becoming someone I was not. I just chilled out my communication style a little bit.

And it worked. And the reality is when you do work in different countries with different generations and different people you do need command over your style. You do need to learn how to turn things up and turn things down. Over time and it was a skill that I needed and that that confrontation and that situation

allowed me to build and then have confidence in without feeling small. But rather I'm just going to speak to him differently because he can handle my energy. So that's okay. Did he make you better? It's a good question.

I mean if you use that story it would suggest that that moment and his inability to understand how someone so young could be in such a senior role. And again, understandably it was unusual that it did force me to build a muscle that likely allowed me to be even more effective in the business world. And there was a time later, maybe 12, 18 months later where we were at a company event

a manager's conference and he was sitting at the bar having a beer and I walked up to him and things had been chill for a long time.

“And I remember saying something like, hey, I just want you to know that it got back to me.”

Because I also like he should know when you say things they can get back to people. But it wasn't right to address that in the moment and make it more confrontational, at least by my judgment. But I did tell him there were things you said that some version of them right or wrong got back to me.

And I appreciate how we work together now. And I'm sure I won't have to hear those things again. And we did a little cheer. And it was there's a quiet power in that. And an ability to have restraint and wanting to like, you know, you're saying negative things

and that's not fair. And just controlling what I can control to get the work done because we had to make decisions for franchisees at a very challenging time while we were growing. We had an airline. We had a casino.

And it was crazy. And so just work needed to get done. A lot of work. A lot of new decisions needed to be made that required cooperation. And then when I felt things had been smooth.

Like, you know, he should know. He should know when you do things like that. They do get back. You're not super secret. And you're not protected in any way.

And that made me feel better addressing it in a calm way. And, you know, he was. He was cool. I outlasted him in several others in that company. Right.

Right or wrong. Yeah. Well, one of the things you do now as the senior person in charges.

It's so critical that you surround yourself with exceptional leaders.

He was telling me beforehand that you hired the CMO from Yeti. And I wasn't your team. I'm curious in a more general level for let's start with the senior people. So the ones that report directly to you. What are some of the must have attributes?

Obviously, like table stakes, they got to be like, okay, your CMO's got to be a great marketer. They got to understand marketing. But beyond that, what are some of the must have attributes in the people that you're

“going to hire to be on your senior leadership team?”

I'm not sure if you and I've talked about this in past chats. But in general, I believe the most effective people.

people hear it. So impactful. Right?

People who are effective.

“Whatever that means to them are able to embody, bring forward and effectively blend”

these four characteristics or mindsets. And it's humility, curiosity, courage, and confidence. And some version of that list of four things you'll hear from many leaders. And people in behavioral science. And I look for those things.

And I ask about them. And I ask for situations that will reveal to me that they can flex those things up and down, that they're self-aware of those attributes. And it's interesting because humility and curiosity. They're related, but different, right?

Humility is the mindset. There are likely things I don't know. I am likely better with others.

I don't have it on myself.

And curiosity is the act of expressing that belief. I'm asking questions. I'm wondering. Courage and confidence. Same thing.

Confidence. The belief that we can figure it out. Not just me, but the belief that things will work out. And that will figure it out. And courage is that in action.

Saying something that's unpopular. Making a decision. Even when it's not certain or unknown. Saying yes to a thing. And if you don't have the capabilities.

So these things are related. And I look for, especially at that level, right? A C-suite level. Someone who's leading other leaders. They're going to hire other people.

They're leadership and their style trickles far into the organization. I mean, I look for sounds like a tough standard. But I look for mastery over those things. And a level of self-awareness. And that's tough to really know for sure.

But you can get at it with questions and reference checks and asking people to tell stories about situations. And you can get a pretty good sense. So those four mindsets, humility, curiosity, courage and confidence are characteristics. Our table stakes for me. And by the time they get to me through an interview process, they've been vetted to your point.

They have very high technical capability. We've got whole panels of what we call barraisers.

“I think that was taken maybe from Amazon or some great company of people of very high standards in a particular area.”

And are a part of a group or a council that helped vet talk talent. And so by the time they get to me, I validate some of those things. And I push on areas where I'm looking for true, like future leaning levels of expertise, where it may not even be common. Today, but I want to know they're going to lead for the future. Not just be really good at a way of working from the past.

But I really spend time on humility, curiosity, courage and confidence. Could you take me inside the room when you're having those conversations? Now, I know they're vetted. They're probably really, really good before they get to you. I mean, you still probably have to say no, every once in a while, right?

You don't just rubber stamp these things. So could you take me inside the room? I just love to hear like, you're such a curious person and such a thoughtful person. To hear what it sounds like, the questions you ask. I've seen the best of you seem to make it more conversational.

So they can genuinely get to know a person less like a rigid interview. I don't know what your style is. I feel like it would be more conversational. But what's it sound like? What are you saying? What are you asking when you're with a senior leader who you may hire? As it relates to pushing on these characteristics and trying to get some truth to emerge or some clarity to emerge,

I will typically ask about a very challenging time in one of their more recent roles. And we'll usually get to one, what went wrong, or what is the one thing when you look back, you can speak to was a real miss and decision making for the company, or, you know, some version of that. And it depends on what the role is and what the level is, but I will work to get to a memory of a situation where they are honestly reflecting on like mistakes were made.

Lessons were learned. So we talk about that thing. And then I'll start to ask questions. What of my favorite groups of questions is this if not for question? Because usually people will then tell you how they stood tall in those moments,

how they helped those moments, how they led those moments.

“Of course, that's what they should be doing then.”

So what I'll ask is, well, what enabled you to do those great things and that tough moment? And then they'll tell me, I had access to this data, I had access to this team.

I had this incredible technical leader who was able to do X.

And then I'll say, okay, if those people did not exist, if that resource did not exist, how would you have navigated that? Now, usually I'm doing two things. Often I'm talking to people who've been at companies that are much larger than ours. And I'm trying to get to, can you do the thing you're telling me you're great at doing with different and potentially fewer resources?

So this if not for, if not for that data set, if not for that incredible PR team,

“if not for that incredible manufacturer, how would you have gone about it?”

What might you have done differently? And that, it's an onion man. You just feel back the layers and you get deeper and deeper and you start to see, wow, okay, this person actually has no humility.

No matter how I ask it, they have no ability to acknowledge that their success was in great part due to some critical factor.

And I can even tell it in the story and they're not willing to or the opposite, right? They, they really acknowledge how important, how powerful that was. And sometimes, in that particular instance, they'll even say, and that is why, if I join your company, this will be a critical role that I need. So it's, I'm looking for that humility and that curiosity, but then also courage and confidence. You know, if they say all this was a terrible idea and everybody knew it and the CEO made the decision anyway.

What did you do about it? Did you say anything? Why not?

Do you like the people who start doing the job in the interview? So Kat, if we're doing this, then we will absolutely need this person in this specific role.

They even have people in mind, they're going to bring with them. I love it higher readers who have people that are that loyal to them, that believe in them. To me, that's a good sign. That's not a good old boys network or whatever. I like it when that happens when they have those people and they start doing the job. They obviously thought about it before the interview, we're going to do this and then we'll do this and we'll do this and it's legit.

Yeah, and the question, the situational path of questioning. If you focus on what you know what are you really trying to understand, it is revealing. And I agree if someone has the humility to acknowledge the enablers to their success. And then even future cast, how that might be needed if they were in our company. Of course, at that point, they probably don't know all the resources in our company.

“So I get grace for what they don't know. That's how I get at those particular characteristics.”

And then I, you know, reference checks as many as I can and I ask similar questions. Things like, what does this person need to be successful? It is a very positive framing to get at what might someone lack or what might they require around them to be effective. So you put all those data points together and it's usually pretty accurate. Yeah, one of the elements that I think you're really good at and have been for the past decade that I've known you is Scott Belsky would say you got to narrate the journey.

You got to be a good storyteller. I mean, this is how you ended up at AG One. We just talked about that being an incredible community around a podcast. As the CEO, as the person running the show, how important is it to you to continually get better as the narrator of the journey. As the storyteller, as going direct, right, you're doing that right now by going on podcast. I'd love to hear, again, your overall philosophy of storytelling communication and CEOs being the narrator of the journey.

It's critical, right, because the CEO in most top leaders, but certainly whoever is viewed as the most senior leader sets the velocity and the tone.

And so while strong leaders within an organization also do that, certainly whoever is viewed as whether it's the founder or the CEO who carries the most cultural weight. It's critical. But when I was listening to you asked the question, it's like, yes, it's so important to name the thing, narrate the journey.

“Help people one of the ways I talk about this with the team is, I tell them, I'm often wondering how I can help answer the question, how should I think about this?”

We have a fully remote company, we're together often in workspace and in regular meetings, but still it's fully remote. And so you have even less context, you have even less fewer vibes, right, you're not together, so you don't feel the energy. And so if I were to send a note that says, we're ending this particular line of products, or we're going to launch this product that we've said we were never going to launch before and now we are. It's a change and it's changed that can disorient people. So what I imagine is in many people's minds that is subconscious is the internal war of how should I think about this? Is it good? Is it bad?

Is it because of something I did or not? Oh, that meeting, that leader was kind of tense. Is it because of me or maybe their child is sick?

Intermonologue, even if it's just the split second of how should I think about this? So I will start communications with, here's how I think about this. Here's how I think we should think about this. What is the opportunity? What is the lesson? What is the action? What does it mean? What is it indicative of? What is it not about?

“So when I think of narrating the journey, that particular area of focus is important to me and what came to mind when you asked the question.”

But the other thing that came to mind is when you have a great team and I do a phenomenal team just all incredible in their own technical right and who bring very different voices and opinions and styles to the table.

Sometimes the answer is to STFU, just be quiet and speak last, listen. And I've gotten that feedback as my teams get stronger.

There is more weight on the few things I say, truly being needed and impactful and helpful and leaving the space for other leaders to lead and architecting that. There were some meetings over time that I just said I'm not going to be in that many more because of course I have a point of view of course I have an opinion of course I'm comfortable in my own skin and in my own company to like throw out whatever comes to mind. That may not be helpful or needed in that moment because I have such great leaders and the culture is strong and there's a deep understanding of what we're solving for and who's opinion we care about and who we're doing something for.

“So I thought of those two things when you asked one this helping people answer the question how should I think about this not just what is the clear message is it clear on what we're doing and why and what's next.”

But the context how should I think about this because that affects culture that affects what people feel and think and do when few people are watching in the sidebar chats and conversations and then alternatively being better at being quiet.

Or being better at letting someone else set the tone and now that's a lot of trust and a lot of responsibility and a leadership team but that's certainly been the journey I've been on.

As you've grown it's like the bigger you get the more light that shines on you and the more opportunity for people to hate on you guys specifically competitors you know this is part of the deal. One after you guys recently about some study or whatever without getting into the details how does it go at your company when you get attacked like that by someone who's trying to sell their version of something that's not maybe a direct competitor but could be viewed that way because it technically is a supplement.

You guys manage through things like that because he's got a big platform he's got a lot of people listening to him it could potentially put a dent and you know some things how did you handle that.

“You know the criticism or questions that come often on the internet the way I think about it is a few things one are their themes are their patterns is there's something to pay attention to here that is reflective of.”

I think we're going to have the reasons of the industry we're one of the largest in the space of course we're going to be the tip of the spear for criticism in many cases and you don't have to look for it many companies who have their share of criticism but their leaders in the space. Apple Tesla Nike Lulu Liman the list is very long of beloved brands that are market makers leaders in category where you don't have to look very far to find someone who.

Especially competitors to your point so I think of a few things one is I always want our team to pay attention to real themes that we should be listening to that will help us get better.

Sometimes there are criticisms of things that are like we already have the answer to and we're already the shining bright example of things like human trial research things like quality and certification. Maybe we're not doing a good enough job marketing it and communicating it and making it easy for people to see so in that regard critique or competition makes us better because we have the capital to scale the customers the brand and the commitment to truly be the best. And so if something we're doing that's already the best in category isn't coming through we have to do a better job communicating so that's one the second is this framing of what are the incentives and motivations and certainly.

Well one way that's effective playbook for many is to take a leader in a space and use that as the jumping off point we're like them but better we're like them but cheaper we're like them but we have this ingredient and so. What you hope is that consumers that you're targeting we'll see that and see through it and in fact we hear that we hear people say oh I saw a add of someone comparing their product to yours and they're clearly saying you're the leader right of course the comparison adds do a job and they work short term but they don't build credibility long term.

So first pay attention to themes what can we learn what do we need to do better to is keep context in mind and incentives in mind and if someone is selling a competitive product they obviously have a reason to try to put a very negative angle on anyone else in the space.

But the third is also this responsibility to make sure facts are out there to your point they're really well followed creators out there the algorithms reward.

“I mean hits and rage bait and think about you know this your creator right podcasts what gets the most traction the most like height clips and the headlines and the music and the cuts and that's what gets us and so that is both.”

Real and sad and we have to recognize that something that is not true or that is a negative spin can very quickly become widely seen or clicked on and sadly maybe even believed because the critique.

Or the rage bait may be brief and witty but the explanation in the truth is long so if someone says oh your product doesn't have research it's like.

You actually went to our website we have more human trials on AG one on a single skew than any other multi ingredient product I believe ever in the space before published human trials that prove benefits we don't make claims without research back benefits were too big to get away with that the smaller companies do and so there are times where then you do need to say hey.

“This is the truth you try to get the shortest version of it out there where the most clinically studied multi ingredient single skew product out there here's the link here's the proof here's where to find it.”

And sometimes outright saying that's not true or you're highlighting something and treating it as if it's ex when it's really why I remember someone said something about one of our products a few years ago and what they were saying about it wasn't even what the product is supposed to do and so my line has always been it's like criticizing a car for not taking you to the moon yes it moves people but that's not what it's supposed to do so getting people riled up about a car that doesn't take you to the moon.

because somebody makes it kind of rage made and so all of that right in terms of the team you help people know how to think about this you remind them of where the criticism comes from take any learnings to use it to make us better.

Although that those types of creators or influencers who just repeat hype negative spin without any factual backing.

It does fuel us to keep leveling up our commitment and more and more research and more and more clinical rigor even if it's not appreciated by the average consumer. If it is not something that we will get rewarded for for years because it takes so much time to scope these trials and conduct them and then interpret them and then to be published my gosh it can be another 18 to 24 months but we still do it right because we're the best we're the premium product people pay to have like true quality true bodies of research and so it is our in my opinion it's our requirement.

Maybe other companies don't view it as a requirement but being the leader in the space we've got another 20 million committed to research over the next three years we spent 10 million over the last few years and it just continues to inform more product innovation more product improvements and more proof of what our product does so you just.

“You know you have to focus on your customer and focus on the facts and be very good at separating signal from noise and making sure the team is able to do the same.”

Did you see how Sam Altman replied to the anthropic ads. Did you think of that because he seemed to me not trying to lead the witness but he felt very defensive and agree I love CEO is going to rock like that like I think that's good I think that's that's one of the things you're really really good at but.

I think of in those moments is being leader of big companies is incredibly complex and I am too effing busy to judge somebody's PR approach or their.

“That to the experts right there experts in comms and PR I love hearing their reads and tear downs on these things but I'm I'm like in the arena right I'm making the stuff I'm doing these things and so I can appreciate both.”

Beauty and the brilliance of those ads baller right in some ways I can appreciate the frustration all around including from from the companies that is like but that's that's not it that's not what we are that's not how we're doing it and eventually it's like you got to focus on what matters. I'm making your product making it excellent shipping taste design quality and bigger than the noise and yeah if you know you're a leader and especially if you're in technology oriented companies you probably need to be very very online.

I think we are very engaged in these matters and sure there's probably a way to be more brief more witty more humor oriented but we're all also humans and you have a lot of employees and customers who depend on you those moments will pass in a year nobody's going to think about it right here just less than that yeah. You build your thing and I have a lot of heart for brilliant marketers who do great ads and who are controversial and I have a lot of heart for leaders who are trying to shape very polarizing market making companies and I hope those leaders don't get.

You caught up in themselves or their ego or what they think they have to do to please other people more than they focus on just building good shit and getting it out in the world that is the greatest answer. It's just doing your thing and it's really dangerous as a leader to get distracted with the social media.

“It's real it matters that you're aware of how people get their information and how they're feeling and what they're reacting to I think it would be irresponsible to not pay attention but there's also a dark side of getting distracted by it and.”

The answer is to built love it one more question cap before you run I'm curious let's fast forward one year and you can make this a personal or professional question it's up to you.

You your husband you're hanging out and your pop and bottles champagne you're celebrating. That doesn't even sound like us but I know we go with go with you for the question. He rose across oceans and you know runs under my race. I know I know okay anyway go with me. Okay very few years being you are celebrating was something that this is called a champagne question so you got to go. Okay.

“All right we're testing our AG one or our AGZ got exactly you're celebrating it's one year from today.”

Yeah. What are we celebrating one year from today. We are definitely celebrating my husband and his continued circumnavigation around the globe so he is circumnavigating the globe on with only human power so he wrote across the Atlantic Ocean in a tiny little robot. He wrote across the Caribbean in the tiny little robot almost died had to get rescued so now he's finishing that in a few weeks and by next year he will have completed the first half of his Pacific row. So you cycle the continent you row the oceans and so a year from now for our family.

Truly that will be the most special thing to celebrate and then every year we have our 10 year wedding anniversary coming up this year.

We got married at Burning Man we're bringing the kids to Burning Man for the first time and that may be a continual thing depending on how they handle lay elements.

So we'll probably be celebrating there as a family something really special and unique that's unique to our family and that inspires our kids. That inspires me that we get to be a tiny part of and supporting and enabling so. Wow. That would be the thing. You row in an ocean like, not you.

He does what is that boat like? It's like 19 feet and he just row and by himself. He's got a rowing partner so he has rode with different partners he cycles with different buddies.

Cycle with so he's got a killer rowing partner who will finish rowing the Caribbean with him and who will likely row the Pacific with him and a dear friend who is cycled the US.

“With him and hopefully will cycle Australia with him once he makes that connection and yeah.”

You ever do it? You ever get in the boat or you get on a bike. That's not everything. When we first met and he rode his first ocean he rode across the Atlantic just two months after we met and we got closer through the row. I really wanted to do it. I mean, I got in the boat with him off the coast of Lago Merra, which is off the coast of like Maraco and Spain.

The road started to roll across the Atlantic and then down to Antiga and took him 45 days and I was in the boat and I'm like this is rad. I could do this but that was December of 2015 and since then we have a couple kids and have had a lot of life. And so unfortunately given that it can be dangerous both cycling across continents, which is to me is more dangerous than rowing. The oceans because there's a lot more vehicles and interaction on a road, crossing a continent than you know, you rode the ocean.

You don't see very much. So now that we have a family, those little angling stuff like I could do this, I'd love to do it with you or probably not in the cards. Isn't that a great those story about life and that that's really what it's all about is it's.

Yes, the thing he's doing is amazing, but really what it's about is who it's who we're doing these things with.

It's the person you become as a result of doing the thing with the people you do it with. That's a beautiful metaphor for life in general. It absolutely is. I mean when he rode the Atlantic, it was a race and he and his rowing partner set the US record for crossing the Atlantic as a pair and it was speed right like time speed. And when he rode the Caribbean and he had to be rescued, which they were also trying to just like get after it.

And it was really tough for he and his rowing partner to be rescued to be in such a dangerous situation.

“And I saw this reset in him because it that weekend after he got rescued, he you know, he reflected he's like, why am I doing this?”

I have two kids. This is too dangerous. I shouldn't be doing this.

And he made some joke about taking up golf or something like you're never going to take up golf.

And but we talked about the why and the evolving why and this is his why this type of global pursuit. Yeah, you have kids certainly it's a little scarier and a little more sad to think of something happening that could impair that family unit, but it's also who he is. It's also what drives him. It is who I married.

I knew it from the beginning and it's inspiring for the kids. And it makes him a better person when he's here when he has that pursuit when he has that thing he's training for. And so it was really cool to see him be kind of devastated and taken down by the events and then reground in his why to keep going and they did. They somebody on this little tiny island where they wrecked and got rescued gave them an anchor because they're anchored to be cut. Give them an anchor and they were able to continue rowing but appreciating the journey even more appreciating each other even more.

And I felt even more in support of him as a result and it sounds like a scary thing and it is, but the boats are incredible.

I trust his training and again cycling across continent to me is much more dangerous. So yeah, it's it's beautiful. It's beautiful seeing him reground and it's about the journey and who I do it with seeing him reground and this is something I do for my family and the kids to be a fulfilled person. With pursuits but sharing that with my kids and it's incredible and he you know he's one of these people too he doesn't talk about it a lot he doesn't he's not famous for it. He doesn't do big keynote he doesn't he doesn't he doesn't have a book.

This is just his hobby.

“He's an adventure by day and so it's really very intimate and special and if he completes it and I believe he will over time he'll be only the fourth person to have ever done it in the world and that's really cool.”

Like that's special to be able to enable something so unique. Wow. I thought you're going to say like some revenue target and I get such a better answer. I'm really glad. I'm really doing the things you know we've launched AGZ we're in retail we have more retail launches we have more human trials coming out.

Yeah. That's all going to continue that's all going to continue and I truly I am so proud and I will be so proud of all these things we're doing as a company. So many but that special family season that we're in is far bigger. Yeah well it speaks to your priorities I love it or the priority right that's singular word and I think that's really cool.

I love it.

“Cat where would you send people to learn more about you in the company online?”

Drinkage you one dot com go to drinkage you one dot com slash science and learn all about our research and science like the real deal.

Not the very hype out there and you know on x drink AG one I'm cat coal ATL I don't post the ton I'm trying to be better at it because it is both my responsibility as a leader of the brand but also something I enjoyed doing and making more time to connect with people online. So people know they have a relationship and understanding of the people in the company not just the brand. So you know hit me up on x or IG or LinkedIn or any of those I'm there.

Love it well thanks again for being here I would love.

I mean we're going to continue our dialogue it's maybe we'll shrink the gap between the times we talk but this is awesome. I really really appreciate it look forward to continue talking as we go. Awesome. Likewise. It is the end of the podcast club thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club.

If you are a send me a note Ryan at learning leader dot com let me know what you learned is great conversation with one of my favorites cat coal a few takeaways from my notes the must have attributes and a leader she wants on her team. Courage and confidence mixed equally with curiosity and humility in an equal balance of all four how does she work to find if they have those she ask about a very challenging time in a recent role and listen to them honestly reflect.

“On when mistakes were made why what did they learn from them and then keep drilling down I think that's what cat is really good at is asking great initial questions.”

Listening and asking even better follow up questions in fact she would be an awesome podcast host if she ever chose to do that and then cat got the job at AG one because the founder and CEO heard her on a few podcasts as my friend and mentor Rex Caswell told me. Years ago you are interviewing for your next job every single day you never know who's watching or listening show up with the intention to add value to others lives. Whether it's your Monday morning team meeting or on a giant podcast regardless you are interviewing for your next job every single day and then I loved her closing answer to the champagne question.

She's a CEO of a billion dollar company and her first thought was about the incredible feat that her husband is striving to accomplish and celebrating as a family.

And then the realization that if all these big things we are trying to do it's about the person you become while striving for the big thing and it's about the people we choose to do them with I love it.

“Once again, I want to say thank you so much for continuing this spread the message and telling your friend or to hey you should listen to this episode of the learning leader show with cat Cole.”

I think she'll help it become a more effective leader because you continue to do that and you also go to Spotify and Apple podcast you subscribe to the show and you rate it. Hopefully five stars and you write a thoughtful review by doing all of that you are giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis and for that. I will forever be grateful thank you so so much talk using can we?