Oprah and Kristin Cabot in an Exclusive Interview about the Coldplay Kiss Cam

This would be the only on-camera interview that you're planning to give. Why did you decide to be here today? So, Coldplay's Kisscam just broke the internet. Can you see this video, right? 1,000.

Yes, I think everyone has seen it. Take us back to the night of the Coldplay concert. Rolling fallout from the Kisscam moment scene around the world, sparking dozens of memes and videos, it is crazy how big this is. That was the first time you all had physically touched.

That's what you said to us earlier. You hadn't even touched. You captured my imagination so much. I haven't been watching it like it was porn. Oh, right.

“I did not know the crucial part of that story that was missing from all of the TikToks.”

I'm going to let you share that. Sometimes people call just harass her and call her a home record. Do you still talk to Andy Byron, your former boss? Death threats. Who's sending Death threats over this?

Why do you think there was so much hate? Hi there, and thank you for joining me here on the Oprah podcast. My guest today is Kristen Cabot, and while you may not recognize her name, I am guessing that you will recognize her face from the most viewed video of 2025. The so-called "call play" kiss cam.

He didn't have to get a fair while he was very sure.

Has been watched three hundred billion times.

Doesn't that shock you? It shocked me. And when I was told, you're mouth is open, that's exactly what I did.

“When I was told it's been watched three hundred billion times, I said, how is that possible?”

There's only eight billion of us on the planet. Well it's because people watched it over and over and over. It was made into countless TikTok memes and recreated at sporting events and concerts around the world. And in just 15 seconds of footage, Kristen found herself in the eye of a public spectacle,

a storm that swept the internet in a matter of hours, and she is the woman seen on the Jambotron at a coal play concert in Boston in the arms of her boss in CEO Andy Byron. And Kristen was the head of HR and for Kristen, those 15 viral seconds, really. 15 viral seconds opened up an unstoppable floodgate of people mocking her, vitriol, and even death threats.

And this past December, she first broke her silence to Lisa Miller of the New York Times. And the headline read the ritual shaming of the woman at the coal play concert. Kristen Cabot. Welcome. Thank you for agreeing to do that.

Thank you for having me. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you. So after reading Lisa Miller's article, I asked my team to reach out to you and you were hesitant,

but then we had a conversation on Zoom. And you decided that this would be the only on camera interview that you're planning to give. Why did you decide to be here today? Yeah, first I want to thank you for having me.

I was reluctant to come, but I'm really grateful to be here.

For me, my mom always taught us silence as acceptance.

“I think I mentioned that in the article, and for me, and my family, what happened was”

not OK, and I felt like by remaining silent, it was somehow accepting what had happened. And I really felt, also, there's a lot of people out there that experience something similar that didn't either have a strength to come forward or were too traumatized or lost their lives due to some of the things I experienced. And I feel a sense of responsibility for those people to speak out and share what it's really

like when people carelessly comment forward, click, like, and the damage that it can really do. Yes, you and I spoke on Zoom. I said, first of all, before the story and the times, I didn't know the story. I was, like, everybody else.

I didn't watch it hundreds of times or even more than once, but I made the judgment

that you had made a mistake and you're out with your boss, and I did not know the crucial

part of that story that was left missing from all of the TikToks that were shared. I'm going to let you share that. So, take us back to the night of the Coldplay Concert and the decision to go to the Coldplay Concert. Yeah, that's a great question.

So, I had been going through, I'll go a little bit before that, so maybe four or six weeks prior to the Coldplay Concert.

and Andy Byron, my boss at the time, he and I had a very close working relationship

for anyone that's worked in tech and a high growth startup, they'll understand that the chief people officer and the CEO are partners. We work side by side around the clock. It was a high growth startup that was growing at 100% year over year. We were hiring like crazy, and so we were really in it together and spent a ton of time

together, and it was, it was about around the time that Andrew and I, my husband had separated and Andy, the same name, so forgive me. I was trying to keep up here, Andy and I had gone out to grab sandwiches during the work day, and he asked me, I seemed a little off, and he just said, "What's going on?" And I said, "Well, my husband and I are separating and planning a divorce," and he immediately

let me know that he was in the exact same situation, that he and his wife were living apart, they were planning for a divorce, and it had been many years in the making. So that became like a really instant kind of point of connection for us, and over the next few weeks to month, that was a place that was really great for me to be able to go to talk about what I was going through, and I was a good safe space for him.

“And I think probably my friends, did you both talk about it?”

We did. We did. And that was where we started to build a bit of a stronger connection, and I was really surprised when he told me. I just, we didn't talk a lot about our personal lives prior to that, so I didn't expect

to hear that from him. Right. He had been married a long time, so I just assumed all was well. So we leading up to the concert, at that point, we started talking a lot more about personal things and kids and how it's going, and all of that, in addition to the busy and frequent

work conversations, and were you having more lunches? Was it becoming? Yeah. Yes, we were. I just felt like a really familiar, like, safe place to talk about what was going on, and

it's so much easier when someone else is in the same experience, we'll share that. So we developed feelings for each other during that time. Because I'm sure. Yeah, were you attracted to each other? Yes.

Yes. Absolutely.

“And that's why, when people would say, oh, they didn't look like friends on the video,”

like that was the culmination point of feelings that had developed over the course of, you know, four to six weeks.

Okay, so when we spoke over Zoom, you said that was the first time you all had done anything.

Yeah. Publicly. That's the first time you'd actually share it any kind of physical touch. Physical touch. Yeah.

Yeah. So at the whole play concert, it's the first time I touched you. Yes. I'll explain. I'll explain.

I'm here to share what really happens. Okay. Now, there's a lot of, there's a lot of context there. So I had friends that had gotten tickets to the show, they asked if I wanted to join it to extra seats.

I never go out. So it's kind of a joke amongst my friends. Let alone on a weeknight. I'm usually with my kids or I'm working. And I had just gone through a pretty tough period.

And I was like, you know what? It's summer. It's a weeknight. Like, I'm going to go see, I love Coldplay. I'm going to go, or I love Coldplay, but I kind of got ruined for me.

I'll be honest. It's not the biggest fan anymore. But it was, it was like such a no brainer to invite Andy. We just, when I say we would talk like 10 times a day, that was even before this connection started.

It was just a matter of our job and our working relationship. Plus we were, you know, enjoying spending time together. And it just seems like we've been, I just want to be clear what time had you spent together before. Plunches.

We would, lunches at work. I literally, everything had been business up to the cold in the context. Yes. Yes. Absolutely.

So we'd had a lot of personal conversation and had acknowledged that we had feelings for each other. Okay. Also, it was becoming apparent to me that we were putting ourselves in a situation where it was going to get risky from a work standpoint.

I mean, I reported to him, it's, you know, it's my role was to actually like be aware of those things happening at work and flagging when it might cause a problem.

So was there, I always say that there's a whisper and then there's a pebble in a brick

and a brick. Was there a little whisper saying, we should tell somebody or we should-- It was more than a whisper. It was like a real conversation where we sat down and said, like, we have to figure out a plan for this because we're, these feelings were real.

This wasn't like a fleeting thing and we decided that we put kind of a plan together but we wanted to propose to our board of directors that would change the reporting structure.

“Didn't you tell me that you were thinking about going to the board?”

Are you all going to go to the board? Yeah, we were. Ironically met probably five or six days before the concert. We had a lunch that was a lengthy lunch to talk about this and to make a plan. And the plan was to go to the board and let them know that we had developed feelings

for one another and that we wanted to change. And it was consensual. It was consensual and which is an important point, a hundred percent and we wanted to propose a plan for what might work to make, you know, take this reporting line out of the equation. Meaning you reporting to him.

Meaning no longer reporting to him. No longer reporting to him. No longer reporting to him.

Okay. Something like that. That makes sense. Seems like it made sense at the time.

“It felt like the right thing to do and yeah, and then I got the invitation to Coldplay.”

I invited him to come. It was sort of a non-decision. It was just kind of like, "Hey, we got tickets. Do you want to come?" And it's like, "Great.

Let's go." And I thought, you know, we've kept it. Why didn't you ask one of your girlfriends? Well, I was already going with my two best friends who may or may not be in the audience right now.

Okay. One of them was already going and the other one is the one that offered me the ticket. Okay. Yeah. And he's the one I wanted to hang out with.

We had a blast together. Okay. And we've been keeping it together. Like I could go to work and be normal. Like I can go to a concert and be normal until I couldn't, obviously.

But it was just, it seemed like a fun plan. Got it. So he said yes. He said yes. Obviously.

And this was the first time.

So we all had done something socially other than meeting for lunches or discussing business. Or having like a drinks after work. Okay. Colleagues and things like that. So you get to the concert and what happened?

Well, I was walking into the concert. My daughter messaged me and said, oh, it's so great that you and Andrew are both at Coldplay. So she let me know that my estranged husband was also at the concert. So I think it's very important.

This is what I did not know before the story. And y'all can obviously didn't know either. That she was separated from her husband. And that her boss was also separated or said he was separated from his wife. Did y'all know that?

Okay. All right, or that, or that her husband was there? This is a thing. So you get texted from one of your children. Yeah, my daughter was like, this is so fun.

Great. I was like, and in my mind, I thought, well, that's, is this going to be weird if he sees me with Andy? Or you run into him? Or you run into him.

Yeah, if I run into him. But then it was like, I'm in July of stadium. There's 55,000 people here. I'm probably not going to run into him. It doesn't matter.

I mean, so that would have been better, and he just ran into him. But you know, he knows, he knows how closely Andy and I work together. He knows we social like, got lunches and drinks, it was fine. So he knew that there was a relationship there. Yes.

He knows the nature of my work and the way the really, I've shared tasks, this is he is I've worked with. It's just a very close story. And so it didn't matter to me. I got to get to the moment.

You got to get there. You all hadn't touched. That's what you said to me. Yes. You hadn't even touched.

It did that evening before we got, I mean, we started to touch before it was on camera, but that. OK. But that was the first time you all had physically touched. Correct.

Correct. Other than like a tap, you know, when you're chatting with someone and you. OK. So what made you do it then? I had a really big crush on him, Oprah, and so did he.

I mean, these were like really incredible feelings. And I don't know women that could relate to this, but I had been going through a really tough time. I was coming out of a separation, and it felt really good to get attention and affection from an awesome man, you know, that it felt good.

You're living out of key point here that you've cheered with me on the Zoom.

Highnoons. I would love to talk about the highnoons. Can we take a moment? Look at Gail going, what is that?

“Gail, Gail has never drank anything other than what?”

I like a good Shirley tell. Oh, she likes a good Shirley tell. So she just looked, I saw you, what is a highnoons? I want to talk about the highnoons because that became a big, big topic on the internet for some reason.

I told Lisa Miller in the New York Times article that, you know, I had a couple of highnoons, and we were dancing, and we got swept up. All you need is a couple. I only had two. So what do you mean?

A two that make you feel like, well, that's Gail. You just Gail used to ask me all the time. I see you getting yourself all liquored up. What does it do for you? Yeah.

I'm not getting liquored up, Gail. It's just a vodka tonic. OK. So it does make you Gail, alcohol makes you feel a little looser.

First of all, first of all, not even first of all, it's just a little looser.

Yeah. A little looser. And my only point in mentioning it to Lisa Miller, how do I know what would have happened that, you know, because suddenly I'm blaming it on alcohol and suddenly, how did none of that is true?

I simply mentioned it to like set the tone of the vibe. Yeah. You're in a concert at Summer a couple highnoons, you're dancing, you're having fun. Everybody maybe except for you, Gail has done that and knows what I mean. Like, it's just an easy, like a fun feeling, and that was the vibe that we had.

And that's why I shared it. And by the way, I think.

“Gail will say, do you have a lemonade, and could you add a dash of cranberry juice?”

Yeah. Yeah. So a couple of highnoons, you're feeling really great and you're a concert and you love cold play and everything's going well. It felt really good.

Yes. It also, I should know, it felt really anonymous. And I feel like I need to explain that too because it didn't look that way on the video.

We were in an area called, I think it was called the Pavilion, but it's a big general, it's a, it's a sectioned off area where there's no seats, it's general admission in this section and it holds about 250 people. So we were in that area and we were kind of up at the front of the near the railing, but we were with a group and with friends.

So we were dancing and talking and it was really dark and it just, we got very swept up and it didn't feel in any way that we were risking being, and it wasn't even calculated where we thought to ourselves like, no one's looking, let's like put our hands on each other. It wasn't that. It was just, it just was a natural, okay, so let's go to that moment that we have all

seen. Have you all seen it? Okay, let's go to the moment we've all seen.

“So you're swaying, I don't even remember the song.”

Do you? Yes. What was the song? Yellow. Okay.

You look, get, get, get, get, let's go. I still love yellow, yellow, yellow, yellow, yellow, yellow, yellow, yellow, yellow, yellow. After a quick break, Kristen Cabot takes us back to that moment. She saw herself on the jumbo tron and what immediately went through her mind during the minutes and hours afterwards.

That's next. That's a world. In the back of the street. A love in the ballroom. And Maggie, a young boy.

This world is much more than a big Britain. From the left hand in the real life, the war star of history, a more than a trip at Wiser.de, a big Britain. Welcome back to the Oprah podcast and my exclusive interview with Kristen Cabot. The woman called on the co-play kiss cam with her then boss in CEO, a viral video that's

been seen around the globe more than 300 billion times.

This is her one and only on camera interview. She says, so let's get back to it. So you're swaying to the song and then you suddenly see yourself on the jumbo tron. You turn to round. He ducked.

Okay, so you see yourself take us to that moment? Yeah, that was a moment of total horror.

“Is really the best way I can describe it.”

My immediate thought was, oh my god, my husband's in the building. He was there with someone else and I knew that and that was great and fine. But he and I were in the midst of our separation incredibly amicable. To this day, he's been the one of the biggest supporters of me through all of these and incredible man and the last thing I wanted to do was embarrass him.

And that was my first thought when I saw myself in that moment. Isn't there an instance when you're looking at yourself on the jumbo tron? Because I remember Gail and I had gone to an event. Gail Maria Shriver and I and for the pope and there's a Gail on the, remember you saw yourself, you said, who said where's her band?

And I go, that red herd black woman, that would be you. And so is there a moment when you say to yourself, oh my god, that's me. Yes, yeah.

Yeah, there was like a split second where it was like almost, I mean, to me, it's like a surreal.

I can't even really remember, but I do remember looking and being like, oh my god. I said worse than that. I'm thinking of my head. But my initial thought was, oh my god, Andrew's here. And my second thought was, oh my god, I'm in the arms of my boss and I'm the head of HR.

Like this is a really bad look. Yeah. Everybody assumed I was horrified because it meant somehow I got busted, having an affair. Like that is not what was happening. I felt like those two reasons were big enough for me in that moment to be really horrified.

Did you even hear? No. So I wanted to share that too. So we were all like dancing and you know when there's music playing, you're talking you're kind of whispering and people's ears or yelling in their ears.

We were talking with my friends too and we didn't hear Chris Martin say we're going to

pan the audience. Like we never heard him warn that he was doing that and we never heard him say

they must be shy or they're having an affair. I had no idea he said that until like days later or the next day. I don't remember from it was a blur after that night, but I didn't know that at all. I whipped around like Oprah. If we were at a Celtic scheme and we got put on the jumbo tron, I'm going to whip around.

I'm not a jumbo tron girl, even on my best days. It's not my thing. Yeah. So I would have probably done some version of that. But in that moment I was just horrified at.

And your first thought was Andrew. Andrew. And my job. And job. Yeah.

And irony of the whole thing or that naive a tale of the whole thing is the entire ride home. We were in an SUV, a fruit group of us. I was all I was worried about was Andrew. I kept saying maybe he left early, maybe he didn't see it.

That was what I thought was the biggest problem I had on my hand.

“Why were you worried if you were already separated?”

Because we were in the middle of going through our divorce planning and it was going

We said it was somebody. He was there with somebody. But I didn't Andrew comes from an incredibly private family in the Boston area. And I just knew in my head like the public embarrassment is not something that would have gone over well.

Okay.

So the first thought was Andrew.

What did you all do immediately afterwards? So you turned around and Andy Byron ducked your boss at the time, ducked.

“And then did you all immediately leave this to you?”

So he and I left the area, the general missionary behind that had indoors had a bar area and some tables set up. Did you leave with your friends or did you know he and I left the standing remarry, went through the doors and sat down at one of those tables and were just like, what just happened? Okay.

What could this what is going to happen? Or what what is what happened? Yeah. I don't know how to explain. And that's when I was like, oh my god Andrew, you know, he was going through his head

of what he was worried about. I was thinking about my stuff. And then it was really towards the end of the concert and then the end of that song, I think my friends came through the door and they're like, let's just get out of here. And so we all left the stadium of what were they thinking?

They were just like, oh my god, I cannot believe this is like getting struck by lightning.

How did this even, how on earth and I can't believe that just happened to you? That's like the worst luck. And then we were in the elevator heading down and a woman in the elevator was like, wait, is that you on the jumbo tron and I was like, no. And then my friend Elena looked at me and was like, is that what we're saying?

I still like, we're saying no, that wasn't you. Like, what do we show you how to look on this? Like, I, but we just didn't know what we had no concept at this time. Okay, so you were worried about your husband who you're separating from. Yes.

And the woman that he's there, I wasn't really worried about that. I mean, I was just so I didn't want to embarrass him. And I didn't want to forget about your husband. You weren't about your husband that you are now separated from. Was he worried about anything?

No. I mean, do you mean Andy, Andy, Andy, Byron? Oh, yes. What did he say? He was worried about it.

“I mean, I don't want to speak for him, but I think, you know, we live in that area.”

I think, you know, he's going through his own separation and divorce. I think he's not looking to embarrass the boss. That was the other big. I mean, it's, it's really not, it's really bad in our roles to have been caught in that session.

Yeah. And that was, you know, we do live in the area. The company was based in New York, but we've both had 25 or so, 30 years in our career in that area. No, one thing I want to share with you all, when I had, I had only one other conversation

with Kristen on Zoom prior to this interview a couple of months ago. Yeah. And the one thing that I appreciated in that conversation, which you can share here is that you kept saying, I made a mistake. It was a mistake.

I shouldn't have been out with my boss. But it wasn't a mistake that I deserved to die for, it wasn't a mistake that I deserved to have people coming up to me on the street and saying, I should die because of it. It wasn't a mistake that deserved people threatening me and threatening my children. It was a mistake.

So that's what you told me. You still feel that. Absolutely. It was a mistake. Absolutely.

And I've been telling anyone that will listen. I own the poor decision that I made in that moment, and I've paid an unimaginable price for that.

“I also, you know, that was why I chose to leave my job because I think I put the company”

in a position given how viral and talks like this became a position, you can't come back. Okay, because let's go back to it, so, walk us through it. You all leave, you're like, what just happened? And then what happened? So we all piled into a SUV, we had all written together and there was six of us.

And I mean, it was a pretty tense car ride home, but it was, I was hand-wringing over my Andrew's seat. I mean, it was just a ridiculous looking at it now, what I was most worried about. Andy was pretty quiet in the car. And our friends, nobody thought, it was like, oh, that was such bad luck, like, hopefully

no one really saw you. Okay. Don't tell everybody, you get home and you're thinking we're going to tell the board tomorrow. Yeah.

I'm going to go to the board and tell them. Yes. So you all didn't you come up with it? He made my apartment. Yes.

Andy did. And we were like, we have to come up with a state. We have to talk to the board immediately. Yeah. Did you come up with a statement?

No, we drafted an email to together to send the board from both of us to say we need to

speak very first thing in the morning.

Most of our board, actually, all that one run the West Coast. So we wanted to make sure they were drafted an email to send to the board. That's right. And then you go home and you go to sleep. Go to sleep.

Again, not really. Thinking. Yeah. And in the middle of the night, middle of the night, I got a message from Andrew. My husband.

I feel like I need to keep qualifying because they're this thing.

Yeah. And he sent me a text with a snapshot of a TikTok of the TikTok video and said,

“I, you need to, basically, I don't remember the exact words, but it was like, there's a like”

Houston. We have a problem here. You know, and he really wanted to get to me. So I could get to my kids before they were teenagers, before they woke up and got on their phones and saw it.

Right. So your teenagers are not his children. Correct. Yes, but your children have a great relationship with him. Incredible.

Yeah. Because you all had been married how many years? Less than two years. Okay. We met during COVID and he immediately built an incredible bond with my kids.

And they're, they're very close still today. Okay. So how did you find out that the video had blown up the internet? I'm trying to remember, it's like such a while that next day was so hard. Um, so when Andrew calls you and says, we have, there's like, this is happening.

I take that. I'm not on any of those apps. So I didn't see it. I couldn't see it personally. I had no sense for it.

Initially personally.

Um, I don't, I've never had TikTok or anything like that.

But he, he let me know. He didn't know what it was. Yeah. And then in the morning by seven or eight a.m. I mean, you all imagine this, can you imagine?

It just, my phone started, you know, a lot of phone calls started coming in from front my friends. All my close friends were just like, you know, this is something's going on here. And it, I, I wish I could remember how long it took from being kind of a problem to like realizing it was, no need to hit sin to the board.

Yeah. Well, we did. We had a call with a board immediately and they had already heard about it at that point. Um, but we had, they were, they were actually really understanding and we had a really

good conversation about it. And they were very, um, he resigned. He hadn't resigned yet. He did that a few days later. Okay.

“And then did they offer you, they, they wanted you to stay?”

Yes. Yes. They wanted you to stay. Yes. How are you going to stay?

Well, that's the, I mean, that was the conversation I had with them. Had it not gone so viral and gotten so toxic. I would have gone back in and taken the punch and stood up in front of the company and said, I'm, you know, a human.

I made a really poor choice, but we're building something incredible and like, let's

get back to it. Um, and hope that they would be okay with that. But I had it, I, that was not an option. Um, I did not feel like I could go in and say, hey, everybody like do as I say, but not as I do.

And I felt like that it would put everybody in such a bad situation. And it just wasn't fair to the employees. Um, I appreciated that the board was behind me and I appreciated, and they did go through an HR investigation and it yielded nothing. And I appreciated that at least internally there.

I got that. Um, so court court. Yeah. But it wasn't viable. It wasn't fair to ask the employees of.

So why do you think that this went off like a, like a bomb? Was it Chris Martin's comments in that moment that maybe you were having an affair? Was it the fact that Andy Byron duck, or that you turned around? Was it that he was the CEO? And you were the head of HR?

What is it? I think it was a, I thought a lot about that. I think it was a whole combination. I was a combination of all of those things. I felt in the, in the initial moments, I'm sure it was funny to people.

You know, I can appreciate that. I've certainly seen funny things online and forward to them around and clicked on them. I just don't think people think people really stop and think about, there's real humans behind them. There's a life there.

It's incredibly destructive and I, you know, listen, I've, I've seen funny things and sent him around to probably not giving it a ton of thought before this happened. I'm very thinking very differently now than I was. But I think people thought it was funny. I think our world is, you know, news is a really sad thing to watch.

I think we are constantly inundated with bad news. Yeah.

Obviously that that video, seen 300 billion times by only 8 billion people on the planet,

was the thing that united people that people were united in their judgment.

“And I feel bad for us as human beings, that that's what we did to you.”

Thank you. We were all united in the judgment of whatever it is you were doing. You shouldn't have been doing it. And we could all actually agree on that without knowing the story behind the story. And I heard that there were people that advised you that everything would blow over in three

days. Who the hell told you that? I wish I could say, because you'd all be shocked, but it's a very prominent person in public relations that I spoke to that that said to me, you have triggered such an avalanche of hate for whatever reason that people are not going to be open to hearing from you

right now. I believe what you say, your best bet is to stay quiet, keep your head down, and then let some time pass, and then speak up. And this is not my world. I don't know.

And I really believed what she said, and I guess it makes sense, but I could tell that there was so much hate. I thought maybe this maybe that is better.

No, I'm not going to stop it.

I'm going to stop it. My safe space. Do you think all of this is not right? Yes, exactly. I'm going to stop it, which is just a different story.

I'm going to stop the game, or stop it. I'm going to stop it. I'm going to stop it. I'm going to stop it. Save.

With this story. Kristin Gabbett, the woman in that video agreed to talk with me here on the Oprah podcast for what she says is her one and only interview. Let's get back to our exclusive conversation. Why do you think there was so much hate?

That's been one of the hardest things for me to reconcile because none of the Pete, nobody knows me. Nobody that judged this knows me. So it wasn't me.

“Listen, I think a lot of people have had not great interactions with HR.”

I think there's some piece of it that's like stick to the HR lady like I get it. That's kind of funny. I think it was incredibly cliche on every level like the CEO and the Chief People Officer. And I think, I don't know, I just think people hurt people and I think there's a lot

of hurt people under billion times.

The New York Times wrote that she's been called a slut, a homeworker, a gold digger, a side piece, the usual tags for shaming women is what Lisa Miller wrote. You told me that you believe that women are apt to quote each other alive and that most of your criticism has actually come from other women that other women are the only ones who dare to come up to your face and say horrible things.

That's right. That's right. That was for me. I think one of other than obviously my concern for what my kids experienced. That was to me the most upsetting piece of all of this was I had no idea how

unwell we are as a gender still.

“I think I was living in a really lovely naive bubble in some ways where I have surrounded”

myself with and I'm so fortunate to be surrounded by incredible women. That supported me through thick and thin. I do the same for them and I don't know women that tear each other down. That's not been my own experience and it worked. I've been really intentional about the women that work with and for me, like bringing them

along in their career, giving opportunity and mentoring and helping them. It's just not, it was such a shock to me. I was told that 90% of the online comments and hate came from women. Every single interaction I had in person and there were many were all women like you said.

Since we had our conversation, I was thinking about this and I say this, not just because a girl was here but it's pretty publicly known that Gail went through divorce and her husband

had in the fair and Gail always says that there's a lot of members of that club.

There's a lot of women who are a part of that club with partners who betrayed them

“with other women and I think that for a lot of women, you became the face of that.”

Do you all think that you became the face of the woman who took my husband, the woman who would take my husband, the woman who that's where the hate was from? And I also think that if you look differently, you would have probably had another outcome. I think you are the blonde, ideal, the girl next door, all of that, am I being truthful here?

Well, I think it's the whole package, it's not one thing, it's everything. I do think there was something people attached to me that triggered things within themselves. I don't think, now that I say I don't think, they don't know me, it can't really be me, but it's something I represent and I think that I think about my own triggers and things that are like unhealed inside of me.

I try to think of what makes me feel a certain way or what it's my own fears that are not quite healed, I think when I... So the question is, did he get the same kind of vitriol, Andy Byron, your boss? Did people, were people coming up to him? No, not at all.

Attacking him, attacking his children. No. And I mean, just thinking about starting from the very beginning, I was every single part of my physical appearance was picked apart. There were stories written about jewelry I was wearing and who bought it for me and how

much a cost when one of my best friends is a jewelry designer and I bought everything from myself that she made me and it's, you know, my hairdresser, somebody found and that turned into a whole thing where she was dragged for giving me crappy root of crappy highlights and she got lit up for that and just everything about how I look to how I was dressed

all the words that Lisa used, the husband's stealer, which by the way, that expression really bugs me and I'm not trying to make light obviously of adultery, it's, it's not that that this notion of women's stealing men, like I would walk in and duck tape and zip tie a guy and like unwittingly drag him out and steal. Like the man has no role in this.

This is, you know, and for me, like I was the face of all of this, there was no one talking about Andy's hair, shirt, watch, there was no one questioning, and I mean, maybe anyone here can correct me.

I never read or heard anything about, wow, did he become a CEO by sleeping his way to

the top? No. And that's all anyone would say about me. It was unfathomable that I might have achieved and worked and hustled and built a career I'm incredibly proud of.

That was not on the table. You're best friend, I heard told you that these people hated you before they even knew anything about you. Do you think that's true? What do you think that is?

“I think that's what you touched on a minute to go.”

I think it's I represented something for people that they were afraid of in that moment. And I can have empathy for that. I think if you're going to snap to a judgment, you're going to have, I don't have empathy for people snapping to a quick judgment and just assuming and using zero critical thinking skills, but I do have empathy or I do have understanding for why that would trigger people.

So I'm trying to, because you look like you look. Well, because I think the way the story was narrated for me without my input was I'm having an affair with my boss and we're running around and we're on the company credit card buying to, it's probably what a lot of women worry about when there has been throughout the world.

I get that. I can understand that.

So you share custody of your two children with your first husband.

And how has this impacted your children? That's the tough one. It was a nightmare. How old are your kids? They're almost 15 and almost 17.

So they're at an age where every, you know, they were 14 and 16 when this happened. 14 and 16. We're still in it. They're really, they're doing really well.

“I usually got the place you went someplace and your daughter said, Mom, can we just leave?”

Yeah. We were at the local pool. This was a few weeks after I decided it was probably in later August when I felt like safe to try to go out, you know, try to go out, my daughter and I went to the pool, they had classes, all the things.

And a woman at the pool started taking her picture in a really not subtle way. And my daughter just, she just lost it and she said, we need to just leave and I was like, I'm so sorry. And I didn't, you know, I was not in a position. That's funny.

The version of me before this concert, I would have marched right up to her and cry. I mean, I'm not a shrinking violet. And I became, you know, a very different version of myself. And I just, we packed up and left. Do you think that you were taking on the guilt and shame that other people were trying

to put on you? Yes and no, I felt tremendous guilt for the fact that it was having on my family and I felt responsible for that. But I did not, I knew what really happened. And I didn't feel shame for something I didn't do.

I wasn't questioning my, I knew the mistake. I made. I was really clear on what that was. But I was also really clear that it doesn't deserve the treatment that I got.

“It doesn't deserve, you know, being made to feel that you should die.”

Can you share with us what those first hours, days and then weeks were like, I mean,

how low did you go? I mean, yeah, those, it was dark. The first weekend after the concert, I, I rented an Airbnb and went up to the mountains in New Hampshire with my dog thinking I was just going to blow over and come back. I really didn't understand because I, I cut off all access to the internet and social

media and everything. I, I, I went away thinking, oh, it was sort of like the beginning of COVID when you're like, we'll close the office for the week and we'll see in a week and then you're like, see you in two years, it was sort of like that. I thought I'll just go and disappear for the weekend.

But when I came back to a self-care day, I did, yeah, I was like, I'm just going to regroup and relax and not just thought it would blow over in a few days as you had been told. As I've been told. Yes.

That definitely didn't happen. But I, I came back to my house that had, had was a place that was really like my safe space as your home, home typically is. And it became a place that was as unsafe as any place could be because a local radio station gave out my address on the air.

And for whatever reason, the whole world has access to my phone number. And I guess that I don't know how people do that. But so from that day, I returned, there was, well, there was paparazzi there for weeks. They wouldn't leave. There was, I had people trespassing and looking in my windows.

We had people doing drive buys and yelling and honking. We had my, with your children home.

And just vile text messages and voicemails. That's probably a couple of days and when the death threats started. But they were also just perverse disgusting messages. I've, I've got emails constantly. Were you afraid?

Yes. I was terrified. And your children were really scared because your children overheard you speaking to your mom. They did and they heard one of the death threats.

I, my kids asked me not to spend too much time talking about them today. But I'm, there's, I'm comfortable talking about portions of it. And that's one of them. They were terrified for me. They're really protective of me.

But they were also really scared for what this meant for all of us. We're not used to having, we're really private. When your kids are hearing that you're getting death threats, kids think we're going to lose our mom. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. That's what kids do. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly what happened.

And we're going to lose our mom. Yeah. Then they have to now be afraid for you. That's right. Yeah.

That's right.

“And for a while, and they, I think, already lean in to taking care of me more than I'd”

like them to do with their age.

I've got it, you know, until it's, I'm good, but they've always been they're really like

sweet and, um, I don't know, empathic people. So they really, like, they're always kind of keeping an eye and making sure I'm okay. So this kind of elevated all of that. You know, in all this, I mean, I think a lot of people at this point have experienced online, vitriol or people saying horrible things.

And sometimes there's something that just is said, and it, it just cuts you. Yeah. Especially if it's untrue. Do you have one of those moments where something is, was said, and it just, like, brought you to your knees or you make, do you not want to get out of bed or?

Yeah. It was, and there's actually a few, um, but the one that just came to mind first was, was the piece around sleeping my way to the top at work. Mm-hmm. I've spent, I've worked in advertising and technology, which are really male-dominated

industries, and I've spent my entire career fighting against the stereotype of, you know, I must be sleeping with someone or, you know, there's, and I, I've been so intentional about how I move through my work life.

I've never been involved with anyone I've worked with before.

I've been working since I was 13, and, you know, my mom had a, I don't really legally working early on, and, um, I never stopped. And my career was my identity for better or worse, and this has been a wake-up call around that, but that was my, I had tremendous pride in what I had built. I, I love what I do, and for that, to be a whole entire narrative we've written that

takes that away from me, um, felt, it just gutted me in a way that I can't explain.

“So it was really that one, I think, you know, obviously being called, all these horrible”

names is, it hurts. Um, I have a friend that said to me recently, like, why would you take criticism from people you would not take advice from? And that really hit home for me, um, and I thought about it, like, it's a great point. I don't, but I did.

It's a great point, but when you're in the middle of it, it's hard to feed. That's right. And it hurts. Like, you know, and it's easy to say, oh, ignore the trolls or the, but it's really, you know, I mean, it's, it's really hard to ignore that, and it gets really personal.

Yeah. Where's your, where, did you have family that were there for me?

Yeah, my family's incredible.

And I just, you asked earlier, like, how, how, how, loaded it get, and then I do need to say that if I didn't have the family that I have, and the friends that just wrapped a big warm blanket around me, like, I don't know that I would have made it through this. And had I been the 25-year-old version of myself. I would not be sitting here.

Yeah. There's no way. Yeah. It was really horrific.

“Because yeah, when you hear the number, I think it was you who told me that 300 billion,”

when you hear the 300, how is that, and by the way, that doesn't include social media. That's just the internet. How wild did it get on, I don't know how wild it got on social, but I think it was wilder than just, like, the, you know, different tabloid websites, but that 300 billion is on the websites alone.

Yeah. That's really disturbing. And so, how did you get your children through it, when you're children, when you become the meme, and everybody knows it's your mom? Yeah.

How did you get them to it? It was tough. I mean, we, we had a lot of conversation in the beginning, though, I mean, I was, I, I was not momming into the best of my abilities. It was, I was pretty broken down.

We had, for better or worse, we had a lot of family visiting last summer. I had a lot of people staying at my house, my brother and his family, and a lot of guests. So I tried to kind of pivot to just, like, life as usual as best I could after maybe the first month, and we tried to just get back to it. Like, go to the beach, try to do some normal things.

It was hard because people were not shy to come up to me in front of my kids, and I had a group of women that I was at my son's, where he works, he works at a surf shop at the beach near our house, and a group of women surrounded my car, and in front of my son, and started to, you know, harass me verbally, and kind of make it hard for me to move my car

You know, they were, they were really lucky to have their peers show up for them in a really supportive way, but they were struck by how horrific grown-ups were acting, and that's a really hard thing for me to explain to kids that, you know, why are, why, because I didn't even. Do they even understand why, yeah, because how do you explain to them why the people

are hating you so much? Right.

“I tried to explain to them, you know, what you described, like I think I'm representative”

of something that touches it a lot of fear in people, I don't, and I didn't know, you know, I was trying to figure it out myself, and I wish I could have showed up for them in better ways than I did, but I did the best I could do, and in those moments, it was really hard going back to school for them was really hard.

They didn't want me on their campuses for the first semester or trimester.

So I missed, you know, I didn't go to games, I didn't go to parent conferences, I couldn't go to parents weekend at my son's school, but the schools were wonderful, I worked with them closely to make sure the kids were supported, and like I said, their friends were great. Next is Kristen Cabot still in touch with her former boss, astronomer CEO Andy Byron. She answers, when we come back, welcome back to my exclusive interview with Kristen Cabot.

Now, two women in our audience, she are with Kristen Cabot, what they learn from our conversation. Here we go. Do you still talk to Andy Byron, your former boss? No, I ended communication with Andy in mid-Fall.

There was a big miss on honesty and integrity, he wasn't the person he represented himself to be, to me, and lying is not a non-negotiable for me. What does that mean, actually?

It means I don't, you know, there was, he missed the mark on being as honest as he could

have been with me, and at the end of the day, Oprah, like I was the one letting me. He wasn't separate, because what you're implying to me, what I'm hearing is that he really wasn't separated. Is that what you're trying to say, I want to be really careful, because the world spoke for me, and on my behalf, and I don't want to do that to somebody else in their family.

I don't feel comfortable, but I will say, like, a lot of what was represented to me was not true. Okay. I also want to say that being left, but will you verify again, as you said to us earlier, that he had told you, when you told him you were separated, he had said to you, he's

going through the same thing. On equivocally. On equivocally. So I believed when you were standing with him at the coal play concert that he was-- Absolutely.

Absolutely. Zero doubt, and zero doubt. But I was left holding the bag, and I don't, you know, being the one that was attacked for this with, you know, he's remained silent, to me, that's not a quality that I would look for in a friend or a partner or a boss, so we have no relationship.

Now, what would you have wanted him to do or say? I mean, the entire trajectory of this would have changed if he would have just made a quick statement to say, my wife and I were separated at the time of the concert. Just like my husband did. But it didn't matter when it was great that Andrew did that, but it also--I was still left

with, you know, the tone changed a little bit. Okay. So she was separated, but he wasn't, so she's still a home record. Okay. One moment, and it's one moment, and once split-second decision can change the trajectory

of anybody's life, why do you--you know, I'm always--whenever something particularly

“this big happens, I say, what are you trying to teach me, God?”

Right now. You didn't have to use this big lesson. Yeah. Could have gotten what's something smaller. Yeah.

Have you looked at this in the bigger picture of your life? What? Why did this show up in your life this way? And what is it here to teach you? Yeah.

I mean, that's the million dollar question. I think about that every single day. And I do believe, like, I got knocked off my course for a reason, like, something to learn here, and there's bits and pieces that are coming into the light for me. I'm really understanding, and I had no concept of this, how when something goes this

viral, how the technology companies are benefiting from this, and how we don't know that when we are forwarding and liking and clicking, we are putting billions of dollars in their pocket. You're just creating an algorithm. And creating an algorithm that feeds it, and the more pain someone like me is in,

the more money they're going to make, and it fuels it and feeds it.

“And I think there's accountability there that needs to be looked at.”

I think I'm heartbroken at how women are treating other women. Like, I want to--one thing I don't know the answer to yet, but it's like, how can my experience turn into something positive to keep that conversation alive and try to figure out, like, why are we doing this to each other? We're so much stronger together, why are we eating each other alive?

And holding each other back, and why do we take such joy in seeing other people suffer? Yeah.

It's so interesting, once you've been through something like this, when you see somebody

else going through it, it creates an empathetic moment for you to want to reach out and say, "I know what that's like," or, "That's right." Yeah. And that I reached out to a family, there was a girl who was--I don't know if you heard about this.

She was four years old receiving zillions of death threats, because she was helping her dad, who's a radio personally, pick out football teams. And she started to miss the mark on the choices, and people started threatening her life, because she was growing up their gambling. Publicly, they were threatening this four-year-old girl, and I reached out to her family,

and they were lovely, and I mean, it's so scary what they're going through. I mean, it's happening all the time. My producer said that what Darrell Hannah recently released a statement about what was going on in the Kennedy love story. That's right.

I actually brought, I wanted to share a quote I could from that. If anyone has--if you haven't read her essay in New York Times this past week, it's a beautifully written piece, but it struck me deeply, and there was a part where she talks about how Jackie O'Nassas used to say to her, like, "There's going to be horrible things in the news."

Because Darrell Hannah was dating. Was dating, John F. Kennedy, Jr., and Jackie O'S said, "You're going to--people are going to write horrible things about you, but don't worry about it. It'll be lining a bird cage tomorrow." And people--the newspapers will be lining bird cages.

Don't worry. And she wrote, and I quote, "This was from on the 6th of March, "In the digital age, stories do not disappear, yesterday's news is not tossed out with the morning paper, and lies live online forever. They are archived, streamed, clipped, meamed, and resurfaced endlessly."

And dramatized portrayal can become, for millions of viewers, the definitive version of a real person's life. They think that's history. That's right. Yeah.

So that--I mean, that's exactly. I wish I knew Darrell Hannah's, like, a different huge hug, but she wrote about was encapsulated my experience to a T. Yeah.

“So where are you now in the healing process for you and for your family?”

You're supporting yourself, you're supporting your children, have you started to look for work again? Because Andy Byron, I hear it's gotten offers from other places. Lots of interest. Lots of interest.

And I think he is the luxury of staying silent, and he can go back to work when he's ready. I feel, after my myself, I'm not on trial, but I have to, in order for me to get back on my feet, I have to come out and explain. And I think that's a stark difference between the man and the woman in this situation.

I have to explain and explain and justify. And I feel like people, when I speak up, they think I'm trying to be famous. If I don't speak, I must be guilty. So I'm trying to figure out the right balance there. And for me, I'm raising my kids alone.

I'm financially responsible for my kids alone. And I need to get back to work. Because people are going to criticize you for like, why are you talking? Yeah, I'm talking. I'm trying to prolong my 15 minutes of aim if I'm not talking, I'm, you know.

Yeah. So again, you decided to talk because. Because I felt like I said in the beginning, like, I can't stay silent and accept what has happened, and I do feel like it's important that people understand the real story. And also how harmful it is to just make assumptions and judge and feed and fuel something

that created this narrative. But you're so right. It, you know, I knew that Andrew had Andrew, your husband that you're getting a divorce from, had made a statement saying that you all were separated at the time. But you're right.

We never heard from Andy Byron.

We have to Andy Byron had done that.

“It would have changed everything, I think.”

Mm-hmm. Yes. That's right. That's right. Don't you all think so?

Everybody would have thought, oh, they're both separated. Okay. Still her boss, still HR, still not great. Still not great. But a lot less interesting to the general public.

Yeah, a lot more. And I think I do think, you know, Chris Martin being a celebrity and that adding to it, I think helped with this, you know, this thing going viral for sure. I think when you bring a celebrity into the mix with private people, I think it gives it more.

Yeah. And before we go, I said to you backstage, which I do with all interviews that are important. All interviews are important, but not as important as you wanting to make this statement here.

I always ask people before every show, and I've been doing this since 1989, actually.

I asked people before we go out, what is your intention? Because I want you to be able to fulfill exactly the reason that you came. Thank you. I'm glad that you came. I'm glad that you were willing to have your first and you say, only interview with me.

But most important, I want you to be able to say, and fully not get home and say, oh,

“I should have said, oh, she didn't ask me, what is it you feel that you need to say,”

or that you want people to know before we leave? I want people to know that I'm just a regular person. I'm a private person. I didn't ask for this. I didn't ask to be famous, and I have no experience dealing with all of this.

to juggle work, or it was, work in parenting, and someone's daughter and sister and friend.

And I really want people to understand what happened, and what harm it does to real people lives when you mindlessly fuel a fire like this. It's incredibly dangerous. And I'm so grateful. I have the tools I have that I can sit here and talk about it, because so many people don't

make it through it, and it's tragic. And I just, I want people to be kind, and I, you know, especially women to women. I know you were upset. That really felt that there were other women who came out, and should have been more supportive, you felt.

Yeah, I just think we're holding each other back, like, let's stop.

“And I think it's a conversation that needs to be had over and over right now, like, what”

is going on with us as a gender that gives, you know, we take such pleasure in holding each other back and hurting each other. Yeah. It's really hard. I heard you were upset when there was a commercial that Gwyneth did.

Gwyneth Paltrow. Yeah. Yeah. That was really disappointing. To me, I felt like Gwyneth, someone whose company is founded on or framed around uplifting

women and women's well-being, and she doesn't need the money. I don't know why she felt she needed to throw gas on the fire and get involved in all of this. It just felt really hypocritical to me, and unnecessary. And I think, you know, I don't want to let Ryan Reynolds off the hook either.

He produced the ad. He created it. And his wife has just gone through something really similar over the last year. And I find it really kind of astounding that he thought this was a great way to lead, you know.

And I tell you that I call Gwyneth and I ask her about this. And so this is an official statement, but I did ask her if it was okay if I shared what she shared with me. And she said that she was told that you and Andy Byron had signed off on that commercial. And she said, she would have done it if she hadn't heard that you had signed off on

the commercial. Had you signed off on the commercial? No. Yeah. He did that to me as well.

Okay. Because she also said, I was going to say she also said that she sent you an email and that she hadn't heard back from the email. So I just wanted to say that. Okay.

Thank you. Okay.

“So when that commercial came out, did you feel that that was just fuel on the fire?”

Absolutely. It made everything in that moment and for, you know, in suing days, we made everything harder. It was made it a lot harder for my kids to, I think when the celebrity gets involved like that, that's their teenagers, like I said, they know who she is, you know. And it made it just added to it in a way that was so unnecessary.

But people have their own needs and I can't speculate as to what those are. So it happened and I can just. And you're saying that you've been most disappointed by the reaction from other women. That's been the biggest thing for me. And I, I don't know, I wish I could fix that.

I wish I could understand. And honestly, I'd love to sit with some of these women that are so angry at me and really listen and try to understand what it is about me or what it is. What could I have, what would they like to have seen, you know, what, I don't know. I'd love to have a real conversation about what it is that makes me so angry.

That happened. Yeah. I really love it. I'm being deadly serious. Yes.

I don't, I have a real need to try to understand and have empathy for people that are hurting. I'm feeling so much hurt that I, I can't fix it but I would love to understand it. That would help me heal too to better understand why, um, why people are so angry. Yeah. Is there anybody here who had seen the video who was angry?

Yes. So were you one of those angry people? I wasn't angry at you.

I, my, the first thing that came to my mind when I saw that video was everything that

and darkness comes to light. Yeah. And I passed judgment and I, I take ownership for that. It was not. It wasn't nice.

Yeah. And it's not the type of example that I should make for my children. As a mom, I empathize with your plight tremendously because, unfortunately, children are, the casualties of these, they take the brunt of a lot of this. That's right.

Yeah.

“But one thing that I think is really important and I was, I was the woman who was at home”

and who didn't know. Yeah. Okay. After 17 years of marriage. When I saw that, it really hit home.

Yeah.

But the most important thing that I've learned through my journey is that the only person

that can define who I am is me. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yes.

Yeah. I think that's really true. But I also, as a person who is, you know, throughout the internet, you know, people

There's no need for horrible things all the time. And it is very, very different if you're up on a jumper trunk that becomes the most watched video of the entire year. It is. And I, there is that distinction.

But for a person who's growing through a very public situation in their own microcosm, which is a jumbo trunk for them, it's different. But again, some my apologies for the judgment that I passed based on what I had read. Because you didn't know that you was separated. I didn't know that you were separated.

I didn't know that he was separated. No.

It was because that's not, I went by the never, that's the major factor.

But irrespective of that, I would have never, ever, ever said something mean or wish death. That's just unacceptable. But I think, this is, thank you so much for sharing that. And thank you so much for being willing to admit that you were in judgment because the whole

“world was actually, and I would have to say that in this moment, I think it's really important”

for we as the human species to look at how we are participating in the comments and the global discussions, because does a person deserve death threats because they made a mistake? Think of all the mistakes we've made in our lives. Think of all the things you wish had not been seen or you wish you hadn't had done that or said that or whatever, and it gets, you know, replicated 300 billion times.

And now people are threatening your life and the life of your children and their parked outside your house and your number is all over the world, I mean, just think about that for a moment. Yeah. I am really sorry that you had to go through that.

Thank you. Thank you for really sorry to talk about it. And I know it took it a lot for you to do this today. I do have to say, if I can interrupt and I'm sorry, at the center of the trauma for me is how women have treated me and it was really scary to come here and sit in the center of

a room full of primarily women, just kind of looking at me. This is really, really terrifying, but I have to say, like, I do feel a lot of warmth in the room, so I want to thank the people here. This was, it was almost, I could almost couldn't do it because of the audience. And you still, you still said yes.

Well, my daughter told me yesterday morning when I dropped her at school and I was like,

“I'm so nervous, and she's like, Mom, this will be like therapy for you.”

You can do it. Oh. I was like, oh, thank you. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. It does feel good. It does feel good.

So, I thank you for allowing me to be your first interview.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, girls, if you were watching, I'll see you next time.

Go well, everybody. Go well. Good. Thank you. Thank you.

Good job. Good job. Good job. Good job. Good job.

Good job. Good job. Good job. Good job. Well done.

Well done. Well done. Well done. Well done. Well done.

Yes. You can take our picture now. Yeah. Yes. I hope you'll like co-play again because Honest is a guy.

Oh my god. Chris Martin, Honest.

He's one of those empathetic people and on he had known he never would have done that.

The problem is you both look like you would have been busted. I know. So, when you look like you've been busted, you know, we didn't those judgements weren't made out of nowhere. It's because both of you looked, oh my god, we've been caught.

But if both. And we have. But just not for what you thought. But just not for what you thought. And you do want to work again.

I'm dying. I'm so bored. I have so I said to Gailer, I have so much gas left in the tank, I'm dying to get back to work. So, he's got job offers and you haven't.

That's wow. But I do just want to say, like me sitting here, I was getting chills from you speaking.

“Like, it really honestly, like hearing your perspective, you know, seeing it on social”

media, seeing all these different things and people making their own narratives, you speaking out. I'm sure all the women in this room feel this way. Like, after hearing your story, like, we empathize with you. Like, it really does.

Thank you. Thank you. I really hope it's fair to hear you as well. You can subscribe to the over podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.

I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.