The Interview

But what if we didn't get the whole story?

"How did this been made to fit?" "The moment you look at the whole picture of the case, Colach."

“What if the truth was disguised by a story we chose to believe?”

Oh my god, I think she might be innocent. Listen to doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if mine control is real? "If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you?" Can you hit notically persuade someone to buy a car?

"When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings." Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? "I gave you some suggestions to be sexually aroused." Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious mind games, a new podcast exploring NLP, aka neurolinguistic programming.

Is it a self-help miracle, a shady hypnosis scam, or both? Listen to mine games on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 1969, Malcolm and Martin are going on. America is in crisis, and a more house college, the students make their move. These students, including a young Samuel L. Jackson, locked up the members of the Board of Trustees,

including Martin Luther King's senior.

“Is the true story of protests and rebellion in black American history that you'll never forget?”

"I'm Hans Charles, our mental equilibrium." Listen to the A-building on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. "This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall." In 2018, the FBI took down a ring of spies, working for China's Ministry of State Security, one of the most mysterious intelligence agencies in the world.

The Sixth Bureau podcast is a story of the inner workings of the MSS, and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its fault of secrets. "Listen to the Sixth Bureau on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts." Before we start, one production note. In this episode, we again have quotes from Roldo.

Rather than just have me read them in my terrible British accent, we decided to bring them to life. So, we use an actor's performance and some customs software to create a doll-like voice. Okay, onto the episode. Roldo also has comfortably at home, giving which should be a casual, breezy phone interview

to a popular magazine called The New Statesman. It's 1983. Doll is at this point, without question, the most famous and most successful children's author of All Time. The BFG came out just last year and was a phenomenon.

The Witches is about to be published a critical acclaim.

On the phone with Doll is Michael Korn, a young theater critic. Korn is just at a college. He's not an experienced journalist or some sort of master interrogator. This isn't some kind of brilliant gotcha moment, but Doll is in one of his dark moods. Korn asked about a book review that Doll recently wrote. The book centered on the very thorny topic of these reals invasion of Lebanon, the previous year.

Doll decides he doesn't just want to talk about the book, or his review of it. He wants to widen things. He wants to talk about the Holocaust. You know, the generational tragedy where six million Jewish men, women in children, were systematically exterminated. It might be the most softball topic in all of journalism. Anyone in their right mind recognizes the immense scale of the horror and expresses a firm desire

for it never to be forgotten and to never happen again. Instead, here's what Roll Doll says to

the unjournalist. There is a trait in the Jewish character that does provoke animosity. Maybe it's a kind of lack of generosity towards non-Jews. I mean, there's always a reason why anti-Anything crops up anywhere. And then he goes on to say, "Even a stinker like Hitler didn't just pick on them for no reason." "Ah, okay. This is what we've been waiting for, folks. Here we go."

“For my hard podcasts, imagine entertainment and parallax. I'm Aaron Tracy, and this is the secret”

world of "Roll Doll." Episode 7. Now, if you're worried we're about to waste a whole out of time dissecting one unrepresentative quote that didn't really reflect who doll was or what he believed in, don't be. The quote I just read wasn't a one-off comment. There's extensive evidence of doll's bigotry. Doll biographer, Jeremy Triglone, records a bunch of problematic stuff that doll said and did throughout his life.

I did social club, for instance. Doll's daughter Tessa remembers her father complained about the number of Jews who were members. He got drunk one night and stood up to make a speech. Diners and nearby tables told him to shut up. Doll was thrown out and his club membership was revoked

writers from Nora Efron to Toni Morrison to Robert Caro, he believes that dolls prejudice against

“Jews grew worse after he and doll had a falling out. Now, a little context. Career wise, doll was”

on top, having already published most of his iconic children's books, but in his personal life, doll was a bit of a mess. He had divorced Patricia Neal after 30 years of marriage. He was in constant physical pain from back surgery, stemming from that crash in the desert decades earlier. And while he's having all this career success, he's very insecure about people thinking he can only write for kids. So, when he's offered the chance to review a book about Israel in a literary journal,

he sees it as a rare opportunity to write for adults. And he's going to make the most of it. As I mentioned, the review comes out in 1983. It's not excusing doll to say that certain prejudices were more common in mainstream culture back then. Just look at our movies of the era. Some of the biggest films of 1983 to 1984 were 16 candles, the John Hughes Classic,

“featuring Long Duck Dong, the Chinese exchange student. Trading places, the Eddie Murphy breakout,”

which includes black face, along with a bunch of cosplay stereotypes. Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom were Indian characters are depicted as either noble mystics or bloodthirsty savages.

And on TV, three's company is the big show, which is basically one long gay panic joke.

Now, a confession. I still love some of those movies, and that's part of why this is so complicated. I can still laugh at a lot of the jokes and training places and just ignore the offensive ones, but I know I'm in a privileged position to be able to do that. And of course, not everybody wants to do that. So, back to that book review. It's just as problematic as the interview he gives about it. It's for the journal Literary Review. The book tells the story of the recent Israeli siege of

Bayri, but in his review dog goes beyond the contents of the book. He takes the opportunity to write a passionate denunciation of the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which he broadens into an attack on Israel and Jewish people everywhere. And, yes, this has a ton of contemporary relevance. The same stuff is happening all over again today. Here's the beginning of Dolls' Book review. In June 1941, I happened to be in of all places, Palestine, flying with the RAF against

the Bishy French and the Nazis. Hitler happened to be in Germany, and the gas chambers were being built, and the mass slaughter of the Jews was beginning. Our hearts played for the Jewish men, women and children, and we hated the Germans. Okay, so far. Dolls throwing in some of his own biography to relate to the contents of the book, and then he continues. Exactly 41 years later, in June 1982, the Israeli forces were streaming northwards out of what used to be Palestine,

into Lebanon, and the mass slaughter of the inhabitants began. Our hearts bled for the Lebanese and Palestinian men, women and children, and we all started hating the Israelis. Okay, so he's connecting what he saw as a pilot in the war with what he sees now. But then,

he ramps up to this, referring to the Jewish people. Never before, in the history of man,

has a race of people switched so rapidly from being much-pitted victims to barbarous murderers. Never before has a race of people generated so much sympathy around the world, and then, in the space of a lifetime, succeeded in turning that sympathy into hatred and revulsion. It is as though a group of much loved nuns in charge of an orphanage had suddenly turned around, and started murdering all the children. He continues. It is like the good old Hitler and him

at times all over again. Wow, there's a lot there. Like calling a whole race of people, namely the Jews, barbarous murderers, because he opposes the actions of a handful of people in the Israeli

“government. Honestly, I'm just not enough of an expert in these issues to do this conversation justice.”

So, I want to bring in someone who is. Yeah, your Rosenberg has dedicated his professional life to studying and thinking about this stuff in a really brilliant way. Yeah, yours are right or for the Atlantic. He's also written for the Washington Post, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, you name it. He speaks around the world on the topic of anti-Semitism, and I love this. He's credited with coining the sarcastic internet term

"Gurbel's Gap," which is the amount of time between a negative event transpiring in the world, and someone finding a way to blame it on the Jews. I'm going to ask Gayer to help provide context for various things to all said. In 2023, a story gripped the UK, evoking horror and disbelief. The nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history. Everyone thought they knew how

it ended. A verdict, a villain, a nurse named Lucy Leppi. Lucy Leppi has been found guilty.

the case of Lucy Leppi, we follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived it. To ask

“what really happened, when the world decided who Lucy Leppi was. No voicing of any skepticism are”

doubt. It'll cause so much harm at every single level of the British establishment of this is wrong. Listen to doubt the case of Lucy Leppi on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if mind control is real? If you can control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have? Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone

into sleeping with you? I gave you some suggestions to be sexually roast. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious NLP, aka neurolinguistic programming,

is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology. Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual

“for your brain. It's about engineering consciousness. Mind games is the story of NLP. It's”

crazy cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a new age commune and sold it to guys in suits. He stood trial from murder and got acquitted, the biggest mind game of all, NLP might actually work. Listen to mind games on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the A-building. I'm Hans Charles, our mental at Glimoma. It's 1969, Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr. have both been assassinated.

In black America, he was out of breaking point, writing a protest broke out on an unprecedented scale. In Atlanta, Georgia at Martin's alma mater, more house college, the students had their own protest. It featured two prominent figures in black history. Martin Luther King's senior and a young student Samuel L. Jackson. To be in what we really thought was a revolution. I mean, people would die. 1968, the murder of Dr. King, which traumatized everyone. The FBI had a role in the murder of a

black Panther leader in Chicago. The story is about protest. It echoes in today's world far more than it should, and it will blow your mind. Listen to the A-building on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. China's Ministry of State Security is one of the most

mysterious and powerful spy agencies in the world. But in 2017, the FBI got inside.

This is Special Agent Riggle, Special Agent Bradley Hall. This MSS officer has no idea the U.S. government is on to him. But the FBI has his chats, texts, emails, even his personal diary. Here how they got it on the 6th Bureau podcast. I now have several terabytes of an MSS officer, no doubt, no question of his life. And that's the Unicorn. No one had ever seen anything like that. It was unbelievable. This is a story of the inner workings of the MSS, and how one man's ambition and mistakes

opened its vault of secrets. Listen to the 6th Bureau on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. First up, I ask you why blaming all Jews for the actions of the Israeli leadership is thought to be anti-Semitic. Yeah, so there's a general human tendency here and a particular anti-Jewish one. Generally speaking, a lot of prejudice takes the form of people looking at a minority group and saying anybody in this minority community that does anything

or says anything reflects on the entire group and every person in it such that if you're a member of minority, you're collectively cobbled with what anyone else in that minority may say or do anywhere no matter where they are and no matter your connection or lack thereafter those people. And that's not unique to Jews. That's textbook, racism, textbook, bigotry, think the spike in anti-Muslim hate crimes after 9/11, which was people taking out anger at a specific group of fundamentalist terrorists

on everyday Americans who happen to have some identifying characteristics that they associated with them. And so that is the general human tendency towards prejudice. That's, you know, an old old thing that many of us have experienced or seen. And then there's this specifically Jewish version of it, where you see people saying that yeah, old Jews are to blame for anything else any other Jew

“did in my perception. But you have to think of road dawn in this particular context. He was”

raised on a continent that for centuries, persecuted abused, expelled, and murdered Jews, over allegations of what other Jews thousands of miles away did in the Middle East, namely

continent. World Dawn grows up in that place, right? That's sort of way of thinking about Jews

and, you know, is part of what pays the way for the Holocaust and the ideas of the Nazi spread. It's not particularly new. It does get secularized, later on, where the Jews in Europe and the United States and elsewhere get attacked over whatever Jews thousands of miles away in the Middle East may have done. And that somebody is angry about. It's not exactly different. It's just the name's changed. And so in that way, dollar reflecting a general human tendency towards prejudice,

“and he's also reflecting a very age old story that people tell about Jews. And I think,”

actually, he's not particularly unique in this respect. As you can see, this is a very common way of thinking about minorities as Mendatius monoliths. What is unique is us asking the question and saying, maybe we shouldn't do that. Where the exception, he's actually the role. Interesting. And I mean, we see this a lot today. Obviously, what's going on in Israel and Gaza right now is, you know, on the front page every day. And people are doing it again. People are blaming

Jews in America, Jews all over the world with what the Israeli government is doing right now to the Palestinians. Yeah, it's a very similar dynamic. If Rodeau was alive today, he would be doing the same thing. He'd be blurring these lines between actions committed by an Israeli government as a specific place in time for people with all Jews around the world rather than treating everybody as individuals and judging them based on those characteristics. It's disheartening and obviously

it's wrong, but it's just something that's always been with us as human beings. It's a sort of a

shortcut we use for thinking about minority groups that we don't know well rather than trying to get the know them and to understand them in their complexity. And diversity, we often try to reduce them

“to stereotypes. And in some cases, that means negative stereotypes or the worst thing that anyone”

has ever said are done in that group. There is a parallel to this because it's a very old thing, ever since Israel has existed that I've been people who have been angry about this or that Israeli policy that I've taken that out on the Fox images and before Israel existed, whatever Jews in the Middle East did was also taken out on, you know, any nearby proximate Jews no matter what connection they had to what happened in that place.

Dol also makes reference to, quote, those powerful American Jewish bankers. Any asserts that the United States government is, quote, utterly dominated by the great Jewish financial institutions over there. Can you talk a little bit about those anti-Semitic trips? Sure, there are two kinds of anti-Semitism generally speaking. One is the personal prejudice. This is the kind of territory that most of us are familiar with, which is I don't like that person because they're different. They're too Jewish.

They're too Muslim. They're too black. And that's a social prejudice. And it's very harmful to the people targeted by it. There's also a different kind of anti-Semitism that's the conspiratorial expression of anti-Semitism. And this one, pods it's the Jews are a sinister, string-pulling cabal that is behind all the world's social and economic problems. It's a theory about how the entire world works and it all traces back to Jews. And if you see something going wrong,

there's definitely a Jew behind it, right? You perceive that there's an invisible hand, it belongs to an invisible Jew. And so Roe Dal here is expressing that. He did it at my understanding is in other contexts as well, not just saying Jews controlled. The banks, not just saying they controlled. The government, he also said they controlled the media. You know, Jews are 0.2% of the human population, right? If you were to think about this logically, even if they punched 100%

above their weight, they would have 0.4% of the power. It's just not how the world actually works. In reality, of course, Jews have been persecuted and exterminated for much of their existence, because they are a tiny group that doesn't really have this kind of power influence. And Jews themselves are extremely diverse and fractious and disagree with each other and there are many different sects and different beliefs. And they argue with each other and anyone who's ever spent

“time in a Jewish community or with Jews or around a Shabbat or Passover table knows, right?”

That Jews kept the thermostat alone, how do you know, I don't know, control Western civilization. But again, this is sort of a very long standing stereotypical way of thinking about Jews. And, you know, dollars reflecting it. In the case of Jewish bankers and others controlling the government, you might wonder, how did two out of every three European Jews get killed in the

Holocaust if this incredible Jewish conspiracy was there running the show? It seems extremely

bad at its job. And similarly speaking, there's so many when the state of Israel was founded in 1948, America put it under an arms embargo, which is a very strange thing to do if the Jews control the government. There's a lot of examples of this in history. Lots of Jewish activists did lobby Franklin Dalinore Roosevelt to try to bomb the railway tracks to Auschwitz, the death camp. We're so many Jews were being killed and he didn't do it. Lots of Jewish activists tried to get

the United States and other countries to lift their immigrant quarters to allow more Jewish refugees to flee the Holocaust. They didn't do it. There are so many examples of this. It's kind of perverse. The anti-Semitic worldview is kind of an inversion of the reality. It's positive that this tiny group of Jews determines the fate of all the non-Jews. Well, in fact, logically speaking, right, the large non-Jewish majority of the world decides

what the world is going to be like for a lot of different minorities, not just Jews. Here's another one. And this is one I'm certainly less familiar with than the other tropes. Talking about Jewish victims of the Holocaust, Dal said, "If you and I were in a line moving towards what we knew were gas chambers, I'd rather have a go at taking one of the guards with me,

So this is more complicated than simply some sort of anti-Semitic idea. It's actually a

“critique that many people have leveled against Jewish victims of the Holocaust, which is a harsh”

thing to do to critique victims of the Holocaust, but it's been done. And some of those people who leveled that critique ironically were people that Dal hated scientists. Some Zionists said that the problem of the Jews of Europe is that they didn't defend themselves and that they weren't

strong enough. And so they need a state and an army so that things like this can never happen again.

And the irony is that roaddog was criticizing these Jewish victims of the Holocaust in the same way as some of the Founders of State of Israel criticized their Jewish forebears. And yet, he doesn't support anything that Israel does militarily. And Dal says that Jews were too weak and pathetic and they went like lambs to their slaughter, and they didn't fight back. But then when Jews go along and say, you know what, we're going to found a state and have an army,

and then we're going to fight back when we perceive ourselves to be threatened. Well, then he says they're incredibly evil, blood-thirsty, and militaristic. Heads, roaddog, wins, tales the Jews lose. And this is a very common way that big it's relate to, my minorities they don't like. Basically, there's nothing they can do that is right. And they're attacked for absolutely contradictory things.

No matter what they do and no matter how they change, they're always subject to the same

prejudice, because when prejudice comes from prejudging, you've already prejudged the community, and then you come up and backfill the justifications afterwards. To go back to this specific instance for just a second, just because it's, it's really something I don't know about. There's an idea among people that the Jews during the Holocaust should have wrestled their Nazi guards to the ground more. They should have gotten together and

“wrestled them. What is? Yeah, no. So I think so exactly. So this is good.”

Could you give me a chance to say something I should have said at the outset, which is I think it's an unfair critique, whether level by Zionists or level by roaddog, the anti-Zionist. I think the idea that the Jews could have somehow overturned or what back in any really effective capacity against this Nazi empire is not a reasonable critique. That being said, the other thing to note is that plenty of Jews did, the critique is wrong,

because plenty of Jews did attempt to fight back. The reason we know it wouldn't work is because they failed or they weren't successful in saving so many of the Jews. You have the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, perhaps the most famous example of resistance to the Nazis, but it did ultimately fail. You similarly had plenty of Jews who joined the various resistance movements in different European countries against the Nazis and helped fight back and also helped spirit Jews and others away to

safety. All of these things actually did happen and they did make a difference, but they weren't the same thing as defeating the Nazis. It wasn't something that the Jews in their tiny numerical rounding error in the human population ever could have possibly done. So it's a good that you

“circle back because I do think you actually kind of have to foreground by saying, I think personally,”

like the critique is wrong. It's historically wrong and it's morally inadequate. I have to say in time, it is very reviewing about doll that he can make this critique and that at the same time attack Jews for being so pathetic and so inept and so weak and then when they act strong and their militaristic, then their evil for being blunt thirsty and villainous. Did he ever spell out what he actually think Jews were allowed to do and what they should be? Or, you know, is it no matter

what they do they can ever please roll doll? That was the IAR Rosenberg, staff writer at the Atlantic and author of the newsletter Deep Studdle. I also want to mention that while doll died without apologizing for his anti-Semitic comments, years after his death, the doll family did issue a formal apology. It was around the same time that Netflix purchased his old catalog. Here's the statement in its entirety, which you can also see at rolldoll.com/apology. The doll family and the

rolled doll story company deeply apologized for the lasting and understandable hurt caused by rolled doll's anti-Semitic statements. Those precious remarks are incomprehensible to us and stand in mark contrast to the man we knew into the values of the heart of rolled doll's stories, which have positively impacted young people for generations. We hope that just as he did it his best and his absolute worst, rolled doll can help remind us of the lasting impact of words.

So, what do we supposed to do about this? Do we accept that apology from his family? Do we chalk it all up to a being a different era? Or, do we stop reading doll? Stop giving his books to our children. One thing that makes it especially complicated for me is that dolls' personal prejudices didn't really make it into his books as far as I can tell. Some critics say they see anti-Semitic tropes in the witches. It's possible, but I don't know if I agree. And if we can't definitively

locate those problematic views in his writing and he's no longer profiting off the sales of his books, does it still make sense to stop reading them? I'm fascinated by this question. I'm someone who constantly does the mental gymnastics that's required of all of us when we consume art from previous generations. I'll just say it outright. Some of my favorite writers and favorite filmmakers have done awful things. I don't want to have them over for dinner, but I still read the novel.

It's still worse up the movies. And of course, it's not always even previous generations.

The writer Alice Monroe, who died not long ago, was revealed to have stayed with her second husband

even more complicated about the fact that we encourage our kids to consume him. I would never

allow a babysitter with clear open prejudices to be around my kids in real life. Why should authors and filmmakers be any different? Maybe because we think we have more control over how they're presented to the kids? Like, we can offer a warning. And we know it's in there. And what's not in there? We know nothing crazy is going to be set off the cuff. The way it might be if a bigoted old grandmother or somebody was left alone with them. Also, forcibly taking away books and

movies feels like a separate slope. It feels a little bit like censorship, and I hate the idea of that.

“I firmly believe that experiencing art is essential to being human, and that art has the capacity”

to do great things, even if it's created by crappy people. And I'm absolutely including children's books in that definition of art. All kinds of art can affect positive change. Often, even more than protest movements or marches or elections can. Just look at how American started becoming more tolerant of gay families thanks to a silly network sitcom, Will and Grace. For your information, Will, Walter was the love of my life. You said that about each

backstreet boy at one time or another. I also totally buy the argument that America was only

able to finally elect a black president because they saw a prosperous, lovable, familiar black

family on TV every week in the 1980s. Namely, the cosplays. What's it going? Great, lesson ready to give us some fascinating stuff. Yeah, we can be pretty fascinating at times. Right away, the Theos are now. Are you going inside? Yeah. Well, I would just like to say that the condition of certain rooms in this house do not necessarily reflect the views of management. Thank you. And yes, the idea of a cosplay is responsible for anything good at this

point is hard to believe. But of course, there are tons of other examples of popular art creating positive change in the world. I was commissioned by A&E a few years ago to write a four-part limited TV series about how breakfast at Tiffany's jump started the feminist movement.

And Tiffany's manage that really positive outcome while also containing one of cinemas

most egregious examples of anti-Asian stereotyping. Namely, Mickey Rune's performance as Holly's upstairs neighbor. The racism at Tiffany is so egregious that it feels like you can use it as a teaching moment if you watch it with your kids. The much scarier thing to me is when the big etry is more subtle, which brings us back to dull. I can't help thinking about a very scary, maybe very pertinent metaphor, suggested by dull himself in maybe his greatest book. In the

BFG, he writes that his hero has the ability to influence children's thoughts by delivering specific dreams to them while they sleep. In the story, it's an act of kindness by sweet, loving creature. But what if the guy delivering those dreams and influencing children's thoughts wasn't so sweet

“and wasn't so loving? What then? To get a better understanding of this really important”

issue, I want to talk to a few people, people who are really thoughtful about this stuff. I did read him growing up and I enjoyed his books. That's the voice of the Great Rocks and Gay. She's a bestselling writer and critic. She's written novels, short stories, and even a marvel comic. Your smartest, most engaged friend has definitely forwarded you one of her essays at some point. I'm very excited to talk to Roxanne about all of this. She's really strong,

clear feelings on the subject. In 2023, a story gripped the UK, evoking horror and disbelief. The nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history. Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict, a villain, a nurse named Lucy Leppi. Lucy Leppi has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the full story? A moment you look at the whole picture in the case

collapses. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast doubt, the case of Lucy Leppi, we followed the evidence and hear from the people that lived it to ask what really happened when the world decided who Lucy Leppi was. No voicing of any skepticism are doubt. It'll call so much harm at every single level of the British establishment of this is wrong. Listen to doubt, the case of Lucy Leppi, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

What if mind control is real? If you can control the behavior of anybody around you,

“what kind of life would you have? Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car?”

When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave you some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? An L.P. was used on me to access my subconscious. An L.P. aka neurolinguistic programming is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics,

It's about engineering consciousness. Mind games is the story of an L.P. It's crazy

“cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a new age commune and sold it to”

guys in suits. He stood trial for murder and got acquitted, the biggest mind game of all, an L.P. might actually work. Listen to mind games on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the A-building. I'm Hans Charles, our middle at glamour. It's 1969, Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr. have both been assassinated. And black America was out of great importance, writing a protest broke out on an unprecedented scale.

In Atlanta, Georgia at Martin's alma mater, more house college, the students had their own protest. It featured two prominent figures in black history. Martin Luther King's senior and a young student Samuel L. Jackson. To be in what we really thought was a revolution. I mean, people would

“die. 1968, the murder of Dr. King, which traumatized everyone. The FBI had a role in the murder”

of a black Panther leader in Chicago. The story is about protest. It echoes in today's world far more than it should, and it will blow your mind. Listen to the A-building on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. China's Ministry of State Security is one of the most

mysterious and powerful spy agencies in the world. But in 2017, the FBI got inside. This is

a special agent, a special agent, Bradley Hall. This MSS officer has no idea the U.S. government is on to him. But the FBI has his chats, texts, emails, even his personal diary. Here how they got it on the six bureau podcast. I now have several terabytes of an MSS officer, no doubt, no question of his life. And that's the unicorn. No one had ever seen anything like that. It was unbelievable. This is a story of the inner workings of the MSS, and how one man's ambition and mistakes

opened its vault of secrets. Listen to the sixth bureau on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. What I want to talk to you about is, you know, Dol also said, some very anti-Semitic things. And I struggle with whether or not I can read his work. And sort of even more importantly for me, I guess, can I give his books to my little kids to read, which leads to kind of a larger question about whether we can ever separate an artist's private

beliefs from their public art. So I think you've written really wisely about this topic, and I was hoping you could just talk a little bit about your own experiences grappling with that question. Yes, I mean, it's a question I think about quite a lot, and certainly as a feminist, it's a question I'm asked about a lot. And I, for one, don't believe, you can separate the art

“from the artist. Nor do I think you should. I think that we are who we are. And that influences”

the art that we put into the world in some way. Now, role doll, wrote some amazing books, like James and the Giant Peach, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, he's a consummate storyteller, and certainly generations of children have fallen in love with his work. So the legacy is there,

but there's also the legacy of virulent anti-Semitism. And the reality is that there are plenty

of children's authors out there who have written very good books who also are not anti-Semites. And so when people sort of ring their hands about this, I've get a little frustrated because this is not the only game in town. And what really people want is like a morality hall pass, because oh, he's a genius, like so are lots of other people. And so like read what you want, truly, enjoy what you want, but accept responsibility for the fact that you are willing to overlook

some truly bad behavior for your enjoyment, or for someone else's enjoyment. That makes a lot of sense. When Nate Parker's birth of a nation was going to be released in 2016, you wrote a really great piece of the New York Times about just what we're talking about, not be able to separate past accusations against Parker for sexual assault from his movie. Reading the piece, I mean, tell me if I'm wrong, but it felt a little bit like one of the things

that troubled you most about that situation was how he handled it. He sort of made the apology all about himself. With role doll, it's tricky, right, because he's not around to defend himself anymore, or apologize for that matter. And I'm not saying he would apologize, in fact he probably wouldn't, but who knows, does that plan for you in terms of long-dead artists? Like, do you have trouble

or more recently, Alice Monroe? What does it do for you when it's sort of someone who is not around to defend themselves or not defend themselves? And I mean, that doesn't even factor for me.

“I think that it would be great if these people could apologize, but I doubt that most of them”

would be apologetic, because most of them would not think that they had done anything wrong, or they would be like, "Yeah, I said it." And I believe it and said, "What?" It just doesn't even factor, and I have no problem not reading these people. I just don't because

there's so much amazing literature out there. And I know, for example, a lot of people feel a

true sense of loss over Alice Monroe, but every time I think about, oh, you know, her incredible short stories, I have far more empathy for her daughter, who she was willing to sacrifice, because of her own weakness. Let me human being, I can understand sort of that she, you know, why she made that choice of choosing her husband despite the harm that he was doing to her child, but it's not okay. And I'm not speaking for anyone else. I'm only making these decisions for me.

And, you know, a lot of times people really overestimate the power of writers in terms of like, "Oh, what do you mean I can't enjoy this thing I want to enjoy?" Like, "Do what you want?" But what you want is for me to say, "It's fine." And I can't say that, because I don't think it is, but I also, who cares what I think? What do you think? So I don't struggle with these things in that I just tend to value the dignity and the lives of these people's victims far more than the people

who have made such a griegeist mistakes themselves. And the counter argument often is that we're all human, and we all make mistakes, and that is absolutely true. We are all flawed, and I include myself in that,

but I also know that I'm never going to be an anti-SMI. I'm never going to be transphobic.

I know who I am. There are some mistakes most of us don't make. I'm never going to commit sexual violence.

“So I think that we have to also remember that these are things that are matter of scale,”

and that we can't compare our normal human foibles and flaws with people who are criminals and the bigots. I think that makes a ton of sense. When I buy Mel Gibson movie or rent a Roman Plancky movie or buy Kanye West song, I feel like I'm giving them money, right? And that bothers me. It sounds like for you, it's not as much about whether or not we're sort of enriching them, or helping them. It's more just you have trouble enjoying it, right? Is that right?

I have trouble looking past, you know, like for example, I used to really enjoy Kanye West's music before we found out who Kanye really is. I just can't enjoy it anymore because every time I start to be like, oh yes, listen to that beat drop because he is brilliant and my acknowledge that he's also truly a horrible person. So I just can't and that's just the way I made up. I don't even think about the enrichment thing. I think people really over-value their dollar.

Like Kanye rich is already wealthy. Buy his music down by his music. It's not really changing his bottom line. I mean, I don't think we should consume his music. I don't think we should enrich him or fatten his coffers. But I do think that for me it's just something I can't do. And I don't mean, that even can't. I, of course, I could. I don't want to. I can no longer enjoy the cosmic show. And I loved that show. I loved it because we weren't really allowed to watch TV growing up,

and that was one of two things we are allowed to watch. It was that and a little house in the prairie. You know, it's sad. And I definitely lament, you know, the loss. Do you think a writer's

personal views always or their prejudices or their outlooks or their viewpoints always find a way

into the work? And if they don't, does that change the calculus at all? I don't think that a writer's views always infuse themselves into the work. I do think that there are some writers and other artists who are very capable of hiding their true selves. But it's rare. It's rare.

“I do actually think that's what makes world dull, such a tough one. For the most part, you really”

would not know his beliefs if you didn't know about it. If you didn't go and like look up information about the artists. Certainly, it's not something I ever knew about until recently, like in the past decade. It's challenging. And I think that what a lot of people need to believe is that genius and genius art matters more than the crimes of the genius artist. And the toxic beliefs of the genius artist. We hear that quite a lot with Woody Allen with Roman

Polanski, especially with like the whole slew of anti-semites. And I firmly understand that for some

Now, when people just say, yes, he's an anti-semite and he made amazing work. That's more honest

that you acknowledge it. And you're going to consume the work regardless because you feel like it

“offers more than the damage done by whatever the toxicity or the crime is. And I think that more”

people believe that they're not unfortunately. But I'm sure you're talking to Claire Detterer. Yeah, we are actually. Yeah, she wrote an amazing book about this that I thought was really really well done where she grapples with these questions. And when people are at least willing to grapple with the questions, I find that more interesting than actually sitting around worrying about these horrible people. Because again, that's more honest. Yes, some people are ambivalent about this,

or some people really struggle. Some people don't know how to sacrifice these works of art for the sake of the greater good. And, you know, I do think it's at least important to have those conversations and a book like Monsters, which Claire Detterer wrote, I think our interesting entrance into the dialogue about this. A huge thanks to Roxanne. And I totally agree with what she said

at the end there about who to speak to next. First thing, if you wouldn't mind, introduce yourself.

I'm Claire Detterer, I'm the author of Monsters of Fans Del Lemon. Here, my conversation with Claire in our next episode. She feels really differently than Roxanne about all this. We'll also get into the nitty gritty of an explosive controversy regarding dolls work. 32 years after his death, that seemed to get the entire world talking about him again. The secret world of "Roll Doll" is produced by a

Maginario and Paralax Studios for iHeart Podcasts, created a written by me, Aaron Tracy,

produced by Matt Shrader, post-production by Wintel Studios, with editing, scoring and sound

design by Mark Henry Phillips, editing by Ryan Seaton, music by APM, executive producers, Nathan Cloaky, Cara Welker, Brian Grazer, Ron Howard, and Aaron Tracy. Additional voice performances and recreation by Mark Henry Phillips and 11 laps. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to rate and review the secret world of "Roll Doll" on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Copyright 2020/6, imagine entertainment, IHeart Media and Paralax.

I'm Amanda Knox and in the new podcast "Doubt", the case of Lucy Letby, we unpack the story of an unimaginable tragedy that gripped the UK in 2023. But what if we didn't

“get the whole story? What if the truth was disguised by a story we chose to believe?”

Listen to doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if mine control is real? Can you hip notically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious,

mine games, a new podcast exploring NLP, aka neurolinguistic programming. Is it a self-help miracle, a shady hypnosis scam, or both? Listen to mine games on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 1969, Malcolm and Martin neuron, America, is in crisis. In a more house college, the students make their move. These students, including a young Samuel L. Jackson, locked up the members of the Board of Trustees, including Martin Luther King's senior,

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