The future of code is exciting and terrifying

- Welcome to The Vergecast,

“flagship podcast, a vibe coding from your phone.”

I'm a friend David Pierce, and my power is out. So it's Monday, March 16th, as I'm recording this, and I live in the Washington DC area where we are supposedly in a few hours from now, getting some like giant generational storms,

potentially even including a bunch of tornadoes. But the really fun thing is that the power is out several hours before it's even supposed to start raining. So it's just gonna be one of those days. We're doing super great.

But this means that if you are watching this on YouTube, you get to see what my home office/basement/studio set up looks like when there's no lights and no fancy camera, and it's just me talking into my MacBook because the Vergecast goes on.

Anyway, on this show, most of what we're gonna do today is one conversation that I had recently with Paul Ford. Paul Ford, you might know, he's been writing about technology for a very long time. He also runs an AI technology company called Abord.

Paul has been thinking about technology longer than most. He writes a blog called F-Train that's been around forever. He's also written for Wired and Bloomberg.

“If you remember that big Bloomberg business week issue,”

called What Is Code, that was like 40,000 words of just what is code, that was Paul. He's just a smart person to talk to about technology and is one of the people I have leaned on over the years to just try and think through where we are and what's going on.

So, where we are right now and what's going on right now is we are in a moment of huge change for how we interact with technology and with AI in particular. Paul wrote a great piece for the New York Times opinion,

a while ago I'll link it in the show notes, kind of reckoning with how he feels about that. Both as somebody who loves technology, but employs other people to work on technology and is trying to think through what it means

for his business, we had a fascinating conversation. I have been reckoning with a lot of the same stuff from a very different perspective. I had a great time talking to Paul about how he's thinking about and how he's using all of these tools

and how we're supposed to think about all of this stuff going forward. We also have a Vergecast hotline question about what's going on with smart phones and the stuff you can and can't get in the United States.

Dom Preston who is just at Mobile World Congress looking at all of the cool phones is gonna help us answer that.

All of that is coming up in just a second.

When we come back from the break, we're just gonna get right into my interview with Paul Ford. But first, I am gonna go, once again, call the power company and beg them to fix this before the storms coming out inevitably all falls apart.

Again, who's me luck? This is the Vergecast, we'll be right back. - Support for the show comes from L'Oreal Group, the global beauty leader, defining the future of beauty through science and technology.

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Start building at MongoDB.com/Build. - Paul Ford, welcome to the Vergecast. - Oh my goodness, David, thank you. Thank you for having me. - I have been wanting to do this with you for a very long time

and most of the reason we haven't is because I am horrifically bad at email.

So I'm very happy this finally happened.

- I mean, this is not you being nice. We've actually been working on this. - It's like a literal fact that is actually what happened.

“- Yeah, but it's crazy, you got family stuff, you know?”

- I'm also very bad at email, but thanks to AI, I am increasingly getting better at email, but we can come back to that. But our timing turned out to actually be very good because you just wrote this big piece for the New York Times

opinion section about vibe coding, in which I would say had pretty complicated feelings. And I want to get into those complicated feelings, but on balance, you wrote this piece basically being like, clawed code in this idea of the,

anyone being able to write code is cool. On balance. Is that a fair description of where you land?

- I mean, I would never be a person who could identify

What I was going, I mean, that is a fair assessment

first of all, like if you're read of it

is far more charitable than many people who read the app. - So this is what I want to talk about.

“- Because there was, we experience this all the time, right?”

Like we cover AI from a lot of different angles every day all the time. And I am consistently amazed by the like trench tribal warfare that appears every single time we talk about AI. But you you experience this and I think a particularly

all at once acute way over the last couple of days, tell me what this reaction has been like. - Well, okay, so I knew I was going to be in the paper and not just the paper, like op-ed New York Times. This is where people go to scream.

And like, so, you know, they asked. They, I was literally kind of walking down the street and they asked. And I was like, oh God, you know, I really didn't want to do it for all the reasons you're describing.

Like it's complicated, I want to say also, I'm a business owner, which of course most people see that and are like, oh, he's, he's going to talk his business. But if you read the piece, I really don't, I actually don't necessarily want to be in any way front and center

in this story because it's so toxic. And the people on every side are either in denial or have these weird utopian visions. But I'd be very, very frank, and people can believe this or not. I felt an ethical responsibility to describe

what I see as the biggest signal change to come to technology in a really long time. And what it's doing to the industry that I'm associated with and that I care deeply about, which is code and sort of the tech and software development industry.

Here is what I know, and here's what I tried to describe in the piece.

Whereas five years ago, doing a really complicated, let's say, XML transformation and keeping the recursive nature of the day of structure and I'm just sort of like jargoning for a minute, but like sort of like doing things where I could, that are really complicated about traversing

a data tree and putting that into like a CMS and blah, blah, blah. It was really, really hard. And so I wanted to do it for a personal project. I started and I couldn't complete it. And with cloud code, I could complete it in about a month.

Like it wasn't instant. It was a really hard problem. It required a lot of like I had to do all sorts of stuff that I hadn't done in a long time, but it was done. And I was able to put it on the web and I'm doing things with it.

So it's sort of like, that wasn't there five years ago, even though I really wanted it to be. And that's such a big deal given how much of our industry is, not industry, our world is code driven. That again, I kind of felt an obligation just to say it out loud

as simply as I could. Yeah, well, and I am curious about,

“forget even five years ago, I mean, six months ago, I think.”

You like many people seem to feel differently. I mean, you've been working on AI stuff for a long time. You, uh, I think are a person with pretty established bonafights. In this space, like you also wrote 470,000 words called what is code in Bloomberg that, like,

you know, I read two thirds of, like I assume everybody else did. Yeah. And, uh, I... You missed a centerfold. Like, I read business week for the picture.

It's just like everything else. We all do. Um, but you also seem to think that there is something happening kind of right here and right now, not just in the sweep of AI history, but like right now.

I have a funny thing right now. I have a funny sort of counter interpretation to a lot of people. And it's because I've been watching it so closely. Cloud code, I've been using it almost since it came out. And before that, I was using a tool called Aitor that's a lot like

Cloud Code, but used touchy PT. And we've been building it, my company. We've been building up from these technologies and using them. And sort of trying to create in some ways more stable versions of what they do, right?

So very, very close to it. So what happened in November of last year was suddenly Cloud Code could solve a lot more problems than it could before. And that quote, that was two things. One is they released a new version of Opus.

“They're very smart, they're smartest in quote model, right?”

That was 4.5. And so that could do some new things. And it was really cool.

But ultimately in the scope of LLMs and what LLMs can do,

it was really just an incremental change. And it wasn't like this huge step change. It was just kind of better along a lot of different angles. So not just like radical EGI moment, just like, "Hey, okay, we made Opus a lot better."

But then they figured out how to create a software product on top of that, that managed your prompts and kind of looked at your code in a certain way that was really tightly coupled to the LLM. And in some way, and I think because I'm talking to this audience,

I feel like the first true LLM-based product. Like that was them saying, "Okay, this is how this works." And we're going to make this thing better.

But the reality is we can get so much value out of it.

If we just put all this code on top of it that manages it for you, so that when you prompt, it does a certain number of things and looks at your code base and now suddenly stuff is kind of happening in a more structured way that we used to be able to do before. And once they kind of locked that down, they start to make that

incrementally better and incrementally better. And so you see sort of two forms of acceleration. There's the really big LLM, which is kind of actually slowly getting better at this point. It's huge, so slowly getting better can be really meaningful,

because it kind of has an enormous amount of knowledge in it. But the product can move really, really quickly, because that's just code. And it doesn't require some huge processing run. And so those two things lined up in November,

“which I think is also why everybody is able to catch up so quickly.”

Like open AI. So we're seeing the product era come for LLMs around this field, around the field of code. And that is a very big change. And that's not really something I could get into the times.

That's just kind of too much for civilians. But that is the warning that I really kind of want to put out there. But also I think that's the opportunity. Like, hey, nothing at dramatic change. They just made something on top of it.

And that did change the world a little bit. We should pay attention. How did your own relationship to coding change? I mean, you tell the story in the piece about prompting cloud code on the train on your way home from work,

which is such an incredible departure from thinking about how to build software. The way you've ever had before. But it sounds like something even one level deeper has kind of clicked in for you about like the stuff you actually want to build now that you can. Well, I think I'm unusual in that like a middle-aged

and I've been a nerd forever. And so my backlog of prompting. Not as unusual as you would think, probably not your right. There's a lot of that's out there. No, but my backlog of like projects is really long.

I have a lot of GitHub repos that I had really big intentions. And then I would go work at a company or, you know, I had my children.

And so like, I just have this huge list of things I never finished.

And so I had stacked up for me. All of these kind of regretful projects. The biggest one for me was I had a relatively early blog. But I didn't have a CMS for it. It was all custom-coded XML documents.

That's why I was talking about. And it was a grizzly transformation. And I've tried to create a CMS and sort of like,

“I was like, oh, you should get my blog back up.”

I should have a personal archive. I should put the stuff I've right into. I should put it somewhere on my own personal website. I tell people to do that. And every time I would sit down like a month later,

I would just be like, oh, well, that was that. But boy, it's just, you know, because I could say things like, build me a CMS and then kind of have a CMS. And then I could say, and again, I get real nerdy. But like, look at the structured taxonomy and entity extraction tools

in this framework and add that to the CMS and build me a world-class hierarchical taxonomy manager. And this is why I said that my personal website would have cost $25,000 to rebuild in which everybody is sort of trashing me for right now. But I'm like, it really would.

Folks, I'm sorry, it's because I overbuild everything and I was an idiot in my 20s, but here we are. And so like, I was able to resurrect something that's like 25 years old at this point. And also, import the hundreds of podcasts I've recorded and all the articles that I've written for other publications.

I often write for Wired, I wrote for the New Republic.

I always had Harper's for a long time and I did a newsletter.

And so I could bring all of those in. And suddenly, I could have all my stuff in one place hierarchically organized on the web. And then I could say, to play it to a server, create a secure login path. I need instrumentation, please check it every day.

And all of that stuff is why we don't build websites anymore. And now you can build websites again.

“So that's how I saw it, like that that was kind of the emotional reaction to me”

is I can have the web again and I can have it on my own terms. It seems like there is some sense of, I don't know, maybe guilt is not the right word, but it comes off a little like guilt in that thing. Like I think what you just described is sort of an unequivocally good thing. It's not a thing that you would have done or could have done before.

And now it is a thing you can do. I mean, and there's versions of this sort of up and now the computing spectrum, right? I was talking to Eric on our team just before we started recording that I had

I went through my downloads folder and made me two folders to keep and to delete.

And it's the sort of thing that I just never would have done because it would have taken too long.

And this is like we invented computers to be able to do the kind of thing that you just described to take busy boring work that no one should have to do and now they can do it. And yet you clearly feel something weird doing this. Tell me what that is. I was at a company we had a hundred plus employees and I don't know and we hired them

“for certain roles and some of the roles I'll tell you one thing like I really think this”

is an amazing tool for data migration because it writes code the transforms data. And you can make sure that the data going in and the data going out is exactly by accurate. Like you can guarantee a hundred percent perfection in your migration approach, right?

So that was a lot of work that people used to do and they used to do that when they were

getting into the industry. I wrote what is code because I really did believe that this was a good way into the middle class. And it had been for me. I don't talk about this a lot. I grew up really poor.

I went to a school for the poor and I associate myself and a lot of the people I work with today are people who also grew up without a lot of means. And we saw this industry as such a gift, right? Like it really brought us in and I was frankly a fat nerdy 20 something but I just loved

“document markup and I could make a life out of that, okay?”

I can't guarantee that path and I've really spent a lot of my time over the last 20 years telling people that this was a good thing and I feel like I have to kind of own up to that and I guess what it is is sort of, I wrote about this a wired at one point I read a piece about GLP ones because I was very early on manjaro. I've typed two diabetes and it was such a drastic change after years of trying to diet to suddenly have any kind of control over

that part of my body. I rapidly lost 70 pounds and I was like my reaction wasn't like oh boy good for me my reaction was after all those years of being fat the culture is not ready for the change that is being thrust upon us and I will say in the intervening couple of years I've been proved right like you were not socially ready for what a zempic and manjaro we're gonna do for us. Our leadership didn't guide us, our health system is fractured even more so because of it,

et cetera and so I feel when I get that feeling in the pit of my stomach that I have to raise the alarm. So I am raising an alarm. Here is this wonderful opportunity because my entire life people have said, "God I hate Salesforce. If I could just afford to do this one thing or every time

“you nerds do something you just appear and I can't get it done." And I'm like that I think is amazing”

but at the same time all those little structural rules. There's a bunch of big websites that like there's one old school web forum. I'm just kind of getting trashed on right now and part of me it's like when I see the parts where they're saying mean things about me personally. I know you've had this experience that your back gets up a little bit. You want to defend yourself and you kind of can't because you write for the paper. I mean I'm telling you but you live this every day.

Do you live this more than I do? But at the same time if you take a step back and I mean as doesn't mean that I don't think those people, they should shut up about me and just want to say that just shut that hell up for what frickin minute you just read the piece and realize but regardless okay you hate me. One person was like I've had bad vibes about him for years. So anyway that's where I am right now but let me take a step back and if we're going to be real here I really

should have empathy for them. I'm in the paper I have a good job. I'm doing okay and I'm telling people hey this is really interesting and exciting but a lot of people are hearing that and they're going I am existentially at risk. People there's somebody out there with a special needs kid who is counting on their tech job that somebody like me told them 15 years ago was the safest possible bet and they wouldn't got a certificate in like AWS management and now people are telling them like

why would I ever do that? I was just deployed by telling Claude you know and it's sort of like that is an enormous insult. I was not excited to be the person who would be delivering that insult and but what are you going to do? Because the frickin AI companies won't do it and the government won't do it and the sort of angry blue sky left won't acknowledge that anything's real and the less wrong rationalists think that we should worship the god robot and so you know maybe as a

narcissistic act is a egotistical dad with some concern for society through my head. Yeah so what feels different to you about this than other you know supposed or actual computing revolutions.

We've been through a million different ideas about what it was going to be to be a person in tech

of these right. I've heard a bunch of people compare this to this. So what what is it just a matter

“of speed and scale that feels different or is there something like qualitatively different right”

now to you know what okay one of the interesting things Linus Torvalds who created Linux he was like wow this is kind of an interesting thing he's big nerd but he's like nothing will compare to what happened when we first created compilers compilers set up because before that it was literally like you were flipping switches yeah and punching things into a paper tape and making you know you had to know exactly how a computer worked and interesting example all of those

were people's jobs that's right and compilers show up and suddenly you could use something like cobalt or or you know for a trainer our goal and you could transform things that looked a lot like language and that had structure to them would be turned into computers and that increased the number of people who could program and do things with a computer like maybe like many orders

“of magnitude like six or seven orders of magnitude like just millions of times more people are involved”

with programming and tech than could be without compilers and so and everything got cheaper and lots of other stuff more is law whatever but so I think there so that's one hypothesis hypothesis one is more and more people can get involved more and more people can make the computer do what they think in their head and that might even bring more and more people in hypothesis two is why would we need these many many millions of well paid specialists many of whom are quite

expensive if we can do that and the computer can do it and there is an extraordinary amount of evidence and then there's sort of hypothesis three which is we should nuke all the AI companies from orbit and I'm leaving that one out that's kind of up to society like society might decide to do that but that's I'm not going to do that but yeah like so is it one or two I

mean literally what do you think like I don't know I mean it it seems to me that the answer is

“the the cup I answer which is probably both right yeah that's what I'm looking for that is the”

brave stance yeah you you poke at this in your piece and I think so I'm thinking about this along to lines right and I think the one line is what everybody is calling the SaaS pocket lips right the idea that there was this paper that just came out with this sort of futuristic scenario that tank the stock market one of the things they say is basically like what if instead of paying a lot of money for enterprise software somebody your company can just spin up a competitor in a few

days I think that is somewhere between nonsense and the far future I don't I don't think there's any world in which that's a real thing that you're going to be able to do with cloud code anytime soon on the flip side I think the idea that people are going to suddenly be able to solve their own problems with software rather than just having to find the thing that exists that is the closest is a meaningful change to the software business right like what I've been doing on cloud code is

I've spent a long time switching between to do list apps and productivity speeds and I have it I realized like a hero job I'm incredibly surprised to hear this oh my god I know yeah

it's weird that this is a thing I'm I don't talk about this very often never heard

but uh I realized about a year ago I actually know exactly what I want and so I started calling around being like why won't you give me what I want never like well because what you want isn't what everybody wants and then cloud code for me was this light bulb moment it was like oh I can just do it now what a journalist moment like you're just kind of like I'm going to turn you're all going to do this for me and they're like shut up David and you're like oh literally I was like what

I want seems so simple and straightforward I don't understand why every to do list app doesn't ship a web clipper because a web clipper seems like such a like blindingly obvious feature for all of them to have and and a bunch of them like showed me telemetry that was like actually nobody wants our web clipper and almost nobody used it when we had it so we could it I was like oh okay yeah so I'm the only one who wants this but what this gives me now is the ability in theory with within

enough time and enough sort of accumulated knowledge to just build the thing that I want and that

means I'm not stuck paying for the one that got the closest to my needs but never actually met them

it means I am not in somebody else's ecosystem that has a lot of ramifications it means I can build my own solutions which is very cool and also bad for all the companies who now don't get my business and that sorting out where that one side of things ends and the other one begins is very complicated for me can you bring up a web browser in this conversation sure okay go to it's called polyend.com okay now I'm a big I'm a synth nerd it's my middle life crisis and so I like to

about vibe coding because I think cloud code and it's like a really really confusing so you're

“at the poly end website and there's a guitar pedal on it you plug you take the wire out of the”

guitar you put it in the pedal you take the wire out of the pedal you put it in the amp and it adds an effect delay reverb whatever this is this is how you too becomes you too right and so they have a new product it's called endless and it is a guitar pedal that is essentially a little computer but it looks and acts it has three knobs and two buttons and if you go and you learn about it what you find is that it has a programming environment where you describe and plane English the kind of

effect that you want and it writes it compiles that and then it sends it over USB to the pedal and who is the company that's doing this this is a company that builds digital synthesizers and digital synthesis guitar pedals so they have all the pieces they have the digital signal processing effects they have the tools they have the understanding of how you sort of move one note

“into another so they have all this intellectual property and they have all this smart and this is one of the”

this is hard to program this stuff it's really hard to make a sound that's good it requires experience and expertise so what they've done is they've essentially made a big library or what you might call like a runtime where you can go in and vibe code in this very specific domain and it can be executed on this very specific platform cost about 300 bucks but now you have a guitar pedal that sounds pretty good that is kind of entirely your own and then they give you a white

sort of faceplate for it that you can put in under the knobs and you can draw your own picture and to me I'm like man that's a cool AI product like I get access to all their smarts I get to make exactly the thing I want and then I walk away from the AI and I play guitar and that's cool like I'm actually doing something cool that's not AI away from the computer that has enabled me to kind of have this very different experience and explore this different way of thinking

but I still have to go get better guitar and figure out what to do with this so I'm not numbing myself by just like chatting right I'm I'm doing something I'm making something and so

“I think what we're talking about this right I don't think the world is going to log in”

a cloud code in the future I just like that's but if you tell me that like 10 years from now lots and lots of guitarists are like hacking their own effects pedals with this stuff and then playing out and they really like it and even though you don't hear it they know about it I'm like that is more believable like the effects pedal runtime makes sense to me as a product in a way that like everyone can code might not yeah and I think that that's it's a more useful way to think about

a lot of this stuff because then it means the downstream effects of all of this stuff are a lot more understandable right I think when when we talk about what if we create God you get to universal basic income and it's like okay well how do we how do we deal with the ramifications of everything changing all at once overnight because we've created digital Jesus like so also David like if anyone

ever saying that ever seemed to really care about consciousness like if they like they're always like

I want it so I can sell it but it's like you know it's a go read a poem like just do anything where you're like God in that that external consciousness is really exciting I like going to museums I fucking just hear those words as opposed to in the future AI will make museums for you whenever you want to museum I feel a lot better yeah I completely agree go read a poem is a good title for this episode by the way just he's right there look that up there let's see how they they're still going to

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your b to b strategy work you can spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a free $250 credit for the next one just go to linkedin dot com slash vergecast that's linkedin dot com slash vergecast terms in conditions apply so all right one of the things i want to talk about in in this is uh next to all of this thinking about vibe coding and AI and cloud code uh you're writing again on the internet uh like a like a maniac um i don't know if you know this Paul it's been a

minute since you were a blogger but we don't do that anymore no we we all make tick tocks all of our stuff got ingested by AI companies that are putting us all out of business nobody goes to websites anymore what what what are you what are you doing um okay so i use to have a website i have a website called ftrain dot com because the you will not give yourself enough credit for this but you were like you were like an og blogger in a way that like other og bloggers understood like Jason cocky

when you started blogging was like oh my god Paul Ford is blogging again like yeah now it's a little it's a little like a ghost has returned right but um i i if we're gonna characterize me i was

always very interested in the web as an exploratory medium i asked also worked in AI around 2000 like

i was this i was kind of waiting for some of these things to happen i didn't know they would be all ms and in fact actually i wrote an article i had why it gave me that cover in 2019 and i made a very bold prediction that we were kind of done and it was just gonna be a bunch of crypto and the tech industry was probably had had its day so i'm often wrong about stuff like just to put it

“out there but i think crypto made a lot of people uh bearish on the tech industry for all”

there but i'll tell you why is it because when you use the computer to do to multiply things and make them cheaper that feels very computer to me but when you use the computer to make things expensive which is what crypto what crypto does it makes processor cycles into money that feels really regressive like i'm like that's not computer i don't like that whereas LLMs even though they burn the world and they're raising the sea level um they really can make a lot of things

for a lot of people like you got a billion people using them so it's it's real computer even if people hate it and so anyway i got to tell you man i got i'm running a business the world is changing in the world sucks right now um i'm on blue sky but those aren't my friends though they'll throw me out the window um and i'm millaged and i got into synths and then i was like i wonder if i could get my site back up as a personal archive because i've done all this stuff and

i'm going to be a thought leader and beyond podcast is kind of embarrassing that hasn't been

updated for 15 years we should just true it up and i was like well yeah i always wanted a real

CMS but i had that weird data structure and then it built one and then i organized all my stuff and i brought i imported all my old tweets i've 70 thousand nodes of content on that site

and i'm like man i always wanted this and then because of everything i did i was like i got to

be able to edit and got to be able to true it up fiximal typos and then i went wait a minute i have a text box and the problem with me is you give me a text box and it's just like i don't i don't have any sense of self control um and suddenly i had a box to type into in the web and it just felt real good it felt real good to not really have to be defensive all the time you know this

“from writing you have to acknowledge five million readers who are going to be angry before you”

can get to your first paragraph right it's like just it's it's it's not easy to be in public in the way that used to be and one i mean and look like i used to get death threats because of my blog in the 90s like it's the the cult humans are humans nothing's going to change but the sense of like i would really like a space of my own even though it's weird that i'm kind of corporate now in doing this and even though i'm right around the world and can write other places

i really missed this i missed having a domain where i could explore an idea almost lazily where i could be sloppy where i could have ten paragraphs instead of two and and really actually kind of put

my own thinking first instead of the readers and i also love when other people do that i really

do i i like the unfiltered messy parts of thinking i like zen's and i like a femoral thought and

“i'd one awesome i'd like wait a minute i can have that and i can have it easily and cheaply”

and i can run it safely on a website that i control i can log into Linux box and i can enjoy this and then i found that i really did and i launched it and i organized all my stuff and i can search for old tweets and um it feels really good this feels good do you feel like you're blogging onto a different internet than you were when you stopped doing it though oh my god yes first of all like everything is about it's like you're like oh yeah if i'd seen these numbers i

would have had a panic attack two years ago it's like you know like one like hundreds of thousands of entities are looking at the site and none of them are human like and it swarms about like i had to get clawed to diagnose probably what clawed is doing um in the back but like i really had to figure it out because i needed to um the server kept coming down because i didn't have a really good and i'm just a great caching strategy around recursive queries and big images so you know

like i had to tighten stuff up i have all this domain knowledge and it's fun to kind of wake it up so parts of my brain that i haven't used in 20 years or suddenly parking up not to manage any more i'm building and um but yeah no i mean the web is we all know it is kind of a toxic stew of bots people are pretty cruel to each other and we've all retreated to group text and weird slacks and i'm gonna throw my hat back in the ring for a while until it feels really bad and

then i'll stop i love that so all right i'm gonna let you go about what's what's your current or next clawed code project one of the things that really resonated about your time's piece was this

“idea that i think you said i collect tales of software wo and it's the sort of thing that i've”

heard from actually a couple of different AI based software founders who are like i what i want to do is spit is build tools that let people build the kind of tools that are too small and two point less front anybody else to make uh so give me a list of those things for you that you're working on your your software wo that you're trying to fix yourself first of all god does my blog would fit into that category um sure let's get it um i built a synth that's on get hub it's called any synth

and it's a little digital audio workstation because because i wanted to um and it compiles to web assembly so that it actually kind of is running its own little c code in the in the browser i built i'm working on a long-term project that i've neglected for a long time um extracting time-based data out of wikipedia and aligning it with archive.org wikipedia so that i can see big timelines of history with all of the art objects and all the music that people made that one's cool

that's gonna be called unscrawl.com you can it's there now it's just broken um it's fun to work in public like i mean you can just kind of i'm on a server just doing this and like nobody cares that's another difference with the old web like no one's ever going to see anything until you literally scream it at them seven thousand times like everyone is tired uh the idea of somebody just like stumbling on your website is such a completely impossible thing now it's it's literally

there's an enormous infrastructure to make sure it never ever happens right like it's just never

gonna happen i am very conscious of the fact that i am creating systems to feed all of them at this point right like my blog is now a tasty morsel and that's what that's where the swarm came from

database into something more tractable of higher education's got the worst name ever it's called

ipads ipds and it gave that a nice interface and brought in to a proper database um i've got

“and so but yes for next i think next will be the timeline project and then also i built the tool”

there's what i've registered to domain which i haven't done in a while but i'm taking piano lessons because you know midlife crisis and i realized that a good name for a piano practice management app would be to do list l_i_s_z_t_ nice so i got yeah i know but you know my spouse just looks at me she's just like are we doing this again like we put this spittle long time are we really back here we're so back so so i don't know i mean i mean part of me

especially if i didn't have to talk about it in public it's just a honeymoon right like it's everything i love about computers also gonna throw this at you because i think you'll you'll of course what you think this was the promise this was your ox park you're gonna like you're going to be able to open up a little box book and you'll be able to manipulate everything in the book and you'll talk to it and interact with it and it will do what you say and it will make you a

system and you will get smarter and better we've never been closer to that and at the same time

i've never there's a profound cultural rejection of that moment for a lot of really good reasons but it's also just this vast bummer because the thing that i just loved about the culture of technology like nobody even wants to have that conversation because so much stuff around it is so toxic i agree and i think uh i think a lot about like how would we have felt if Microsoft had invented the internet and stood to be the only company profiting from it

how the development of the internet would have been different and the obvious answer is it would have been different and it would have been worse and i think we are staring down the barrel of this is not this this is bringing us a lot of features that we have wanted for a very long time i think you're right that like obviously the the chat is not the UI for everything but there are things inside of these products that are what we have wanted computers to be for decades

and we'll make everyone's computing lives easier but it is it is the way that they were created who stands to benefit the most and the the cavalier way with which they all seem to be approaching what this stuff might mean just makes people feel ikey so we're and this is part of why i want to talk to you right is it it's so hard for me to divorce this feeling of what i get when i'm sitting here building software i don't know how to build but i am building it right next to

i hate everything about everyone who is gonna get rich and what this is doing in some data center near i don't i don't know how to separate this new and you and i get this really big cop out because we're able to be like but i'm learning about it to share it yeah i get to share it with everybody and i'm doing i'm doing my service while i play with shiny what i tell myself i'm

“gonna write a story at the end of this so it's allowed that's what i tell myself we are enormous”

hypocrites but i don't know how else to be right now if i'm going to really understand what's happening to the world and like i actually kind of i don't really welcome people telling me i'm a horrible monster because i wrote about it but i do welcome people who want to resolve that like hypocrisy i mean i think there is there is the element of like boy it would be nice to just step back from this there's also an element like maybe we should just be advocating for more and more strict regulation all the

time right like i don't know the the tricky thing too is like but then you talk to climate scientists

like blast finally able to cut through that hideous data set okay yeah yeah this stuff this stuff

matters and feels bad and i don't know which of those wins or if we can ever pull those two things apart from each other but i guess what i would say like you are a couple of nerds and we're culture nerds but we're nerds and it'd be really good if people could come into this conversation from worlds that are pretty resistant and realize that we think there's real value here like i would love a couple poets to scream at me for a while or just like a few i'd love to get like just i'd

like this cult this conversation needs to get broader because it will knock it back in the box

“and if the only thing you believe is put it back in the box you're going to be really frustrated”

so we should talk about that but if it's going to be out of the box what the hell are we going to do because it's also really cool and so this is an ugly wrestling match yep and it's yeah and it's it but it is out of the box i think that that is a thing you and i agree on it is i mean let me there is no going back from here and for better or for worse there's nowhere back i know we're closing this up but i would leave everyone with the question like how would you put

it back in the box when the most of the court technology is freely available and can run on your

seek but it would still be out there so it will not go away anymore than like bit torn can go away

yeah i would argue we saw a lot of things by getting to the it just runs on my phone and state as quick as humanly possible yeah but that is for another podcast uh Paul thank you so much it's great to have you let's let's do this again sometime i will answer your emails and you know nine months or so all right we're going to take a break we'll be back support for the show comes for MongoDB if you're tired of database limitations and architectures

that break when you scale it's time to think outside of rows and columns because let's be honest you didn't get into tech to babysit a broken database you got into it to actually build something MongoDB let's you do that it's flexible developer first asset compliant enterprise ready and built for the AI era say goodbye to bottlenecks and legacy code start innovating with MongoDB there's a reason it's trusted by so many of the fortune 500 and that's because it's a platform

built by developers for developers MongoDB it's a great freaking database start building at MongoDB dot com slash built all right we're back let's see a question from the versecast

hotline as always the number is 866 verse 11 the email is versecast at the verse.com

the verb just dumb pressed in is here to help me with today's question dumb hello how you doing you're just on a run of like weird phones on the versecast i love this it is weird phone time of year apparently there's been a bunch of it is in fact um we have we we have a question that actually dubtails perfectly with something you and I have talked about pretty recently so i'm just gonna play the question let's get into hi um this is Chris in a variety i was

the thing to the British show after mobile world congress and i hadn't heard of most of these

“phones i live in america i've never heard of on or before i think i've heard of techno like that week”

for the first time and now i'm not you're wondering like am i missing a better phone

by living in the u.s i don't even necessarily know if there are mainstream features in other

countries that don't like exist in the u.s um is there mainly more global competition like at the low end or like for foldables or for niche stuff but the top sellers around the world are generally similar to features on the top sellers in the u.s like well i phone is great even if i'm best it was brought to end right i would still probably pick an iPhone at least today and i'm not as useful to the person so am i just missing out on gimmicks like 240 watt charging in 200

extra digital zoom or are there mainstream features that we're missing out on state side i don't even know thanks okay i i think this is the perfect framing for this question um because we we've talked about all the stuff that is available in other countries that's not available in the u.s right like do you want a phone that has features not available to you in the united states are there

“lots of those abroad of course yes the answer's tons of yes but i think the question is”

like if you are a person in the united states in particular are you missing something is there is there something important and valuable and meaningfully better in some way that you are missing out on by virtue of being in the united states um and i want i want to sort of roll up to that question but you've you've seen a lot of weird phones you've seen a lot of these things with new features and brands that uh only exist in it so in some cases like only in china and in some

cases everywhere but the united states what have you seen in this weird phone season that strikes you as sort of a particularly interesting new idea about smartphones a lot of it's been in the concept stuff right the really interesting stuff is that there isn't even actually in products we've got the the call and mention techno who were and obviously and they had this module found but they had just a slightly different take on module phones to what we'd seen before that felt

very clever but it's still not a real product this is still to some saying we found a better way of imagining what a module found might be but we still can't build it at any meaningful scale

“and and so on right um i think the stuff i've seen from so many from the last few weeks and”

January from the last six months year or so in in terms of the the non-US phone market the biggest things are actually in a way boring but it's big boring practical things that are nice to have like better cameras and big about trees it's honestly very a little bit less right now sure what talk me through better cameras because when i think about some of the phones we see there are a lot of bizarre cameras right like you've covered ones where the camera comes with a whole professional

camera rig or camera comes with you know huge lens attachment yeah is that the kind of stuff you're talking about or is there other camera work happening there is definitely other camera

on big gimmick accessories that push the limits of what you can shoot with the phone and build

more of that idea that what if the phone was kind of a camera body and you could slap most stuff on top and make it a semi professional shooting device and but that's not what most people want the caller mentioned i'm just missing out on gimmicks yeah that kind of stuff is maybe gimmicky and you probably aren't gonna spend an extra few hundred bucks on this kind of add on telephoto lines that looks really kind of goofy when it's attached to your phone and you know even if you

“buy it you're not gonna use it every day i think the biggest thing is particularly looking at”

behind looking at the flagship space and looking at the ultra models so you've got this funny thing in the US was only one real ultra phone and it's Samsung's phone and they do an ultra every year and they kind of introduce this this banding this like above a flagship price category in terms of big of phones with better cameras better zoom things like that the funny thing now is that when you look at the rest of the market Samsung's Ultra's don't feel very ultra

Samsung's Ultra's feel like everyone else's regular flagships and you've got then this space where you've got Xiaomi vivo opo on a Huawei who are throwing out what they're calling ultra phones which are a step more expensive than Samsung's generally um they're in the kind of some of them are starting around the same places as Samsung's Ultra but some of them are pushing $2,000 for kind of you know as you up storage and get add-ons and special things like that

but really they're just going all in on cameras and Samsung hasn't really touched his cameras in a meaningful way even in the ultra the ultra this time got some slight aperture tweaks but it's fundamentally the same system we're seeing really big main camera sensors um sometimes in megapixel count um 200 megapixels become very standard in these phones but really it's more about actual sensor size one inch type sensors are very common all sensors getting close to that size there

is no one in the US selling a phone with an image sensor that big and these basically are just

meaning you're getting one of the side effects of the biggest sensor is one with depth images you get this real camera feel where that kind of portrait mode thing of trying to get blurry backgrounds that has to be done digitally and you know various algorithms make that happening just kind of happens naturally it's a funny thing that that leap even I remember this moment in like low-end digital cameras when we went from the like one or two point eight the sort of standard digital camera

CMOS sensor to the one inch sensor is like the the leap in it feeling like a camera like you said it is so enormous that there's all kinds of new stuff that becomes available just in that one physical sensor size leap and like I don't pretend to be a camera expert but I have been trained over the years that the single best way to make a camera bigger is to make the sensor motor like forget everything else make the sensor bigger and you make the camera bigger and and a

one inch sensor is actually at least in my experience a real sort of inflection point in the kinds of photos you can take so that that's a really interesting kind of big deal and and so what we're

“seeing now is I think you're right that that's a big inflection point and part of the reason”

it feels that way is that the manufacturers have all said cool this is big as we need to go and I don't think Samsung and Sony are really making logic in the sense that image sense has done that yet for phones and the manufacturers I don't think I'll push them to because everyone's like this is great on main camera sensors are big enough these are wonderful now the race is can we make the ultra wide sensor bigger as well can we make the telephoto sensors bigger as well

you know how many of these big sensors can we fit on a phone no one's putting in more than one one inch type sensor yet it's gonna say three one inch sensors it's like there's literally only so much physical room but someone's gonna try they're working on it you know they're pushing the limits to what they could do it I mean so we saw this you know with stuff like I have to actually try this fun but uh Huawei had a phone uh last year called the Pura 80 Ultra and the fun

thing that that did was it wanted to have two telephoto's but to save space on having two telephoto's it just has moving lenses that share one sensor so it has two different telephoto lenses that move in and out from above the one larger sensor which allows them to fit in a bigger telephoto sensor then they could have if they were just doing two different telephoto genuinely this is kind of the same reason Xiaomi's up to this continuous zoom it's a Xiaomi 70 Ultra where it's kind of

getting the same thing if having two telephoto's it's just one lens with real zoom but again part of the point that is instead of fitting in two telephoto sensors we just have to do one that means we can get a better one and it's team them up to keep making them bigger and better down the line as

“they go and this is really the way I see it right now and I think telephoto isn't particularly”

I wrote a piece for our news later the step back about this just before MWC so maybe a month or so ago about how the telephoto camera really outside of the US just feels like the place where everything is happening on smartphones and just go back to this you know the the question we had

was asking if they were just missing out on gimmicky two hundred times zoom as said the answer is

no like we we are still seeing people pushing things like like nothing the other week announced a hundred and forty times zoom for it's for a problem I tried it at the launch event it was terrible it's blurry it's there's AI filling the gaps it doesn't look good you're not

maybe up to ten times suddenly you're getting really really really good photos and you're making photos that are as good as maybe better than a lot of the main cameras you're going to get in in a US flagship so when I'm reviewing one of these ultra phones when I'm reviewing a Xiaomi ultra reviver ultra I honestly spend most of my time shooting on the telephoto because I find it's a more natural distance to shoot products shots which I do for work food shots which I do

and I'm about taking photos of friends that kind of portrait distance anything like that it creates a much more natural feel where I'm sure everyone's had that feeling of trying to take a photo of like something close up to them and you feel like well my just the main camera is

so zoomed out actually they're always kind of quite wide angle these days they're kind of moving

the camera really in and it distorts things a little and the angle stuff look with so the telephoto is getting this effect we're actually you're getting incredible quality shots with natural bokeh and depth that do amazingly well in low light you know you're not getting a low light drop off

“from these telephoto cameras anymore they are as good as the main cameras if you want to go”

shoot complicated nighttime scenes things like that so you're really getting this feeling more and more of a complete camera system in these ultra level flagships where you can go between the main and the telephoto and I feel there's just no quality drop off whatsoever in almost any lighting video or stills and in some cases I think Vivo and Oppo the two brands pushing this side they're trying to do that the ultra wide as well and trying to really make it feel like

you can go between any of these three lenses and they're just going to do they're going to

feel like the main camera in a light phone basically yeah that is a very compelling argument I thought

like I look at some of these things you know the huge batteries and you you've been playing with the new Oppo phone with the Christmas foldable all that stuff strikes me is a good idea is but sort of be obviously coming right like the minute Samsung can do this it will and it might it might it might be a generation behind some of these Chinese companies in particular just because of the

“way the manufacturing world works and and that's all fine and good but like I think if you're”

a US customer you don't need to feel deep loathing jealousy for a Christmas Oppo phone like I think it's fine yeah you will get that when it is time it is just true that the camera is the most important thing on your phone right now and the idea of it being not just slightly better because they are processing but like meaningfully physically better is I think a huge deal and it makes me wonder this is obviously a giant question we don't really have time to get into today but why do you

think that's up hasn't come to the US it's not like it's a less competitive camera landscape in the US like why why is this not totally standard on every phone everywhere now every company Apple on down seems like it has every incentive to put the best camera you possibly can into its phone as fast as possible I think there's a couple of reasons I mean one is the US brands priorities the US market above every other market they are playing in other markets yeah Samsung

Google particularly Samsung and Apple obviously big players globally but they still see the US is

probably the biggest most important market and because the US market is small they can get away

with pushing the boat out of that last because they know they don't have this competition they're not up against ultra flam ultra kind of cameras in the US market they don't exist there so Apple just has to look and be like well we do we have a better camera or on a

“par with what Google and Samsung are doing and that's what they're all looking at in terms of”

US market obviously they're thinking about other markets and we're going to get away with part of the benefit these guys have is they will have brand power especially Apple have this added cache of just the brand people are going to buy a lot of people are going to buy the new iPhone pro regardless of whether it's the best camera on the market because it's the best iPhone on the market and that will be a big thing Samsung and Google have that cache-a-liced internationally

but still to some extent obviously in Korea Samsung does then the second part of it I think for me is and this is especially an Apple thing I wonder how much it from them is an aesthetic thing because you look at these big ultra flagships and the one thing that unifies them is a design language which is they all have a big round black circle packed with lenses which takes up about a third of the back of a phone and just half an inch out of it and they're just

big monster giant these are already like 6.9 inch display phones the quite thick the bulky device you know they're not a comically enormous these aren't those energize the phones with crazy batteries or anything but they're you know they are bulkier than a Samsung ultra they're generally around the same size as my phone pro max that's where you're kind of getting and these brands are not generally trying to fit these kind of cameras into smaller phones we're

beginning to see that a little bit but still very tentatively and our compromises to the cameras as they do that we're not getting that true true ultra camera in the smaller sizes and yeah

have to go right now and buy a phone for me that was my phone every single day and I didn't switch

review devices all the time it would probably think yeah all right God if it's the one I've got to use every single day for the next you know five years I'm buying one of these altres because I missed I left the cameras too much I'd struggle to give it up now but I do it being like hey how ugly this thing is and can you imagine Apple putting out an iPhone that just has this enormous cameras sticking out of the back I think already they get so much stick for how big

the cameras on on the iPhone pros are and they're tiny compared to what we're seeing from these Chinese ultra phones they're not on the same league so I think Apple in particular is just not going to do it until they can find some way to do it without completely compromising the aesthetics of the phone make sense this also seems to me that if Google had any guts at all

and was at all actually interested in winning it hardware this this is what they have to like

Google should just come out and just absolutely boat race everybody else is coming out and be like

“look our phones enormous it has the best camera you can buy let's fight like that's that's what”

Google should be doing what does it have to lose like I get why Apple wouldn't do this right if you're Apple you have 20 years of this that you don't really want to undo by making a giant ugly fun what does Google have to lose go make China good fun Google people want good cameras they already went and did the the big camera ball first which kind of feels like it's maybe making the space to do this and I have seen someone make the point that is Apple's move

to the camera plateau you know is it's kind of about making the space inside the in future generations they can start to do bigger cameras and stretch that out because now they've kind of set a new design language that that does make more space for a bigger camera if they want to use it like that the the funniest one of them all the Samsung who makes many of these image sensors that the Chinese rivals are packing in their phones and is not using its own best image sensor out

but you know the phone building bit of Samsung is looking at the image sensor bit of Samsung and saying we don't really want your best products like we're not interested in that right but you can

always find a company in China or something else yes 100 percent yeah that that that that

Samsung piece of it feels like a perfect explanation of the whole thing that's going on here and I hope more people make more weird phones I think like to to the colors question rate this feels like a good way of looking at the whole story because on on the one hand I think there is a case to be made that the most sort of sensibly thought out correctly put together main stream devices either originated in the US or sort of are made for the US market like that is

it is the most mainstream of mainstream phones so the question of like am I missing something mainstream is probably not because the US is is is the mainstream market in so much ways but

“if you want to see what's next and I think more importantly if you just want to have more options”

like absolutely yeah and if you if you want a giant as phone with a giant as camera you should be able to have that and that's the thing that I think sucks about the US market is they're literally it is not available to you right like if you want to buy a weird phone I believe it is your right is a human to buy a weird phone and it's just a shame that that's not available to everybody um last thing before I let you go here out of all these weird phones you've seen

is there anything that just grabs you personally emotionally you're like this is a dumb feature no phone needs it but I love it with my whole heart and I want it really bad what what has captured your heart in the last few weeks okay this is something we're seeing a few of the the Chinese RMS work on at the moment I think particularly opo and Anna the two brands really pushing this and they are taking picking up with Google kind of like has done it's like oh

we can figure out like a kind of awkward back-end way to make a drop work and they're like all right

“hold my bear because like the on-a-magic v6 has come out and been like okay it supports all the”

features of airports so you'll get that like quick pairing you can see the airports in the US all the stuff it supports find my for airports not any other find my but it will support just the find my for your airports nothing else you can do notification syncing with Apple devices you can do file sharing with Apple devices so they've got all this access behind Apple's world garden somehow through just kind of accessing the back-end stuff the Apple are like has not quite been able to

lock down in in the way that we all thought it was and they've all figured out and every announcement there's some new bit that they've chipped away and they're like oh now we've added this and now you can do this but my favorite bit of it all is you can just do their excreension of some of these so if you get an opera on a foldable you can screen share and remote control you're Mac to the phone so you can then turn your foldable phone into a tiny little foldable MacBook and have the

foldable macOS on this minuscule screen that you're trying to like use the bottom part the foldable phone is the trackpad and it's an awful experience I used it you know try it for a view and thought this sucks you could I could see it in like an absolute pinch like I really

do it for anything more than that because it's the worst experience in the world but I love that I can

“make my foldable phone into this tiny little MacBook I especially don't that because there is no”

world in which Apple lets you do that with the iPhone Fold whenever the piss no even though it should

Apple listen yeah okay don't first of all hey lead with that next time that's the answer here

listen by this weird Chinese phone and you can use your Mac on your phone hell yeah also that like this whole we're gonna have to do some more digging into all of this quick share air drop stuff because there is a weird falling of the wallet carton thing here that Apple is either unable to stop or just not choosing not to fight against that I find utterly fascinating and and it it feels like all of these different companies are poking in all of

these different directions and if they can if they can just get far enough they start to make

“really interesting and raise among Apple users in a way that I think could end up being really”

really important well the funny one is uh honor has really actively publicly started pitching at least in China it's magic v6 foldable which has all these kind of Apple integrated features they're not saying like did your iPhone by this they're saying you've probably got an iPhone from work like by this is your personal phone because you're already in Apple this way you're

you're this can be your second phone it connects to your iPhone it connects to your MacBook

that's your iPad well it we know you're an Apple user and we know you're not gonna fully give out the iPhone but like have this foldable as well and it will do all this other stuff and that's a niche they're targeting it a very affluent niche right but there's people in that space that I might be able to win over that's really interesting all right dumb thank you's always I promise you can be done talking about them do you see that that's a lie I don't promise that

but at least for me for another few days thank you thank you as always all right that's it for the show as you can see I am back the power is not we sold your on thank you to Paul and Dom for being here on the show with me thank you to you as always for watching and listening

“if you have questions or feelings or you want to talk about vibe coding I think the the”

conversation I had with Paul has left me thinking about a lot of stuff and I'm curious to hear

how you react to it too as always call the hotline it's six six first one one send us an email

virtualcast at thebirds.com we love hearing from this show is a virtual production in part of the box media podcast network the show is produced today by Eric Gomez brand and key for and Travis large hug we will be back on Friday Lord Willing I will have power and Neil I am going back to talk about the AirPods Max which just dropped a bunch of other news all the AI stuff and everything else going on we'll see you then rock and roll.

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