The News You’re Not Getting (and Why) with Amy Goodman

Hey everybody, welcome to the weekly show.

My name is John Stewart, and it is our weekly get together. Today's May 5th, May the 5th be with you. Yeah, that's probably not going to work. Tomorrow will be the day that this comes out. So what is that going to be May 6th?

Who knows where we're going to be? We're coming apart at the seams ladies and gentlemen. We're apparently involved in a ceasefire that involves bombing with countries and then attacking our boats. Nothing has any meaning anymore.

It's slowly unraveling and slipping away from us to the point where a literal king has to show up in our Congress and go, "What the fuck is a matter with you people?" Obviously, that is not the tone of voice that he took because he's a king. I believe what he said was, "What the fuck is the matter with you?"

Something along those lines. But he had to remind them, remember your whole thing was to defeat us so that you could have freedom and functioned through the consent of the governed and were slowly unraveling that. And the guardrails that are put in place are nowhere to be found,

including the fourth estate.

“And that's why I'm so excited to be talking to somebody”

who actually has been on the ramparts of that fight for low these past 30 years. And does such a public good and a service and her courage and bravery and relentlessness are just wonderful examples to set for the next generation

of people who want to come out and tell real stories about what's really going on in the world. So Amy Goodman, the fabulous Amy Goodman. [MUSIC PLAYING] Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct pleasure

and honored today to welcome to the program, Amy Goodman, who is the host and executive producer of Democracy Now, and has just a fabulous film out. That is, I think, a wonderful tribute, but also insight into the incredible work that Amy has done throughout all these years.

It's called "Steal this story, please." It's in the theaters now across the country to find a theater,

just visit StealThisStory.org, always.org.

Amy, it's always.org with you. It's not.com. You're not a corporate individual. You're a.org individual. That's right, and I'm not coming either.

But I do want to spell it all, not at all. But I do want to say that it's not my film. It's about Democracy Now, the 30 years, but the directors, Carl Deal, and T.L. S.N. are a big deal. They're Oscar nominated for their film on Hurricane Katrina,

trouble the water, T.L. just won three M.A.s for the James, which is about the Underground abortion network in Chicago in the '60s. They were Michael Moore's producers years ago. They did set a set of some coaxer there.

They're amazing, and they decided to do this film.

“So what, you know, to have to Oscar nominated stalkers in your life?”

No, you deserve, you deserve more. And you know, very interesting, because in that moment, I think we've established the difference between Amy Goodman and John Stewart. I give information, and then Amy gives the correct information.

And that in many ways sums up the careers. I have to tell you, Amy, you know, I am a just long time admirer of what you do, whenever my frustrations over, you know, what we consider mainstream news and the criticism as I have,

it always sort of, it comes back to, I mean, look at Amy Goodman,

look what Amy Goodman does, why can't they do that? And it strikes me that it's because the access that you work under and you tell me of this is even mildly accurate. They seem to focus on right left. You seem to focus on power, no power, voice, no voice.

And is that what makes it?

“Is that what grounds it and makes the work so essential?”

I mean, that's what democracy now is all about. It's to go to where the silence is. And it's often not silent, you know? I mean, it's raucous, it's rowdy, people are organizing. We're really about covering movements because movements are what make history

or covering the people closest to the story. I mean, we don't bring you the same pundits that you see on every network show who know so little about so much, explaining the world to us and getting it so wrong.

as my colleague, Nermie Shakespeare, says the co-host of democracy now in still the story, please, you know, the media is this frame and democracy now, widens that frame because usually the media really erases so many voices. And we take the people outside the frame, bring them in and not only bring them in, but we center them.

And you know, John, those people are not a fringe minority. I mean, I really do know those who care about war and peace, those who care about the climate catastrophe, those who care about the immigrant crackdown about reproductive rights, those who care about inequality are not a fringe minority, not even a silent majority.

But the silence majority, silence by the corporate media, which is why we have to take it back. And it's incredible how, you know, you bring up such a,

“I think an interesting point about there is a prototype or a boilerplate”

that modern media follows and I understand television has to be produceable, but where it's, you know, we give a brief, a bit of information, and then the rest of the time is filled out by people who don't really have first-hand experience or witness experience. Your work and democracy now's work feels like you get the information,

not the analysis that so much of media now is just easily produced shallow analysis.

But the information is what's actually crucial and necessary to expose these stories.

Well, you know, they took the motto of democracy now, the directors steal this story, please, because I consider an exclusive of failure. Like, if no one picks it up, that's really a problem. I want it to reverberate out, because who are we covering?

“I mean, in the film, you have our coverage of the standoff at Standing Rock, right?”

We're indigenous people, Standing Rock, Sue, and North Dakota. We're joined by indigenous people from Latin America First Nations from Canada, and then many non-native allies. You know, they thought maybe a couple dozen people would come to help them fight the Dakota Access Pipeline, but thousands came.

So we were even late to the story. We were covering it from New York. That's where we broadcast democracy now from. But we only went out there in Labor Day of 2016.

Now, that is a really important year, because that's when Trump first ran right

he president Donald Trump ran against Hillary Clinton in the presidential debates. Not only didn't the moderators bring up this epic gathering,

“but they didn't bring up climate change, and that's why people were there.”

They were really scared that the pipeline, which would go under the extremely long Missouri river. Could bust, could break, and could hurt the water supply of millions downstream. So we followed one day when they were protesting bulldozers coming on to their sacred burial site. Six bulldozers, a student front of them, these earth-crushing machines, girls, women, boys, men, and then the machines pulled back.

And then the deple, the code access pipeline security guards, released dogs on the protesters. And we filmed a dog with its mouth and nose covered blood.

So we released that video online, and within 24 hours, there were 14 million views.

It really showed, you know, when I go into the networks or I'm invited in to CNN, MSNBC, which is now MSNBC. I would say to the host, why don't you cover climate change more? And they'd say the executives upstairs, they'd say that, you know, eyes will roll, but they won't get enough eyeballs, but this gave the light. And the executive would rule for that number of views.

And then the networks, one after another, pick this story up. President Obama, I think, was in loud for some historic trip, and he held a democracy forum with students, and one of them said, hey, what about that video of the dogs fighting the protesters? Wow. And I heard that when he came back to Washington, he saw the video, and it wasn't lost on the first African-American president, what it meant to sick dogs on protesters.

I mean, steal this story. Please take the story. And people don't see these stories. It really is a tree falls in the forest. And if nobody is there to hear it, they don't. But you are wandering the forest,

And I say, great, meaning illustrative, not great, in that it was awful. You're in Indonesia. And... East Tamar. East Tamar. And American weapons are being used by the army to slaughter protesters.

“And you're there. You're filming it. And I think they said in the film,”

this had been going on for 17 years, or something along those lines. Indonesia invaded East Tamar December 7, 1975. 90% of the weapons they used were from the United States. The army was trained, financed, and armed by the United States.

And you know, isn't it amazing that the entire American population probably most people never heard

of, maybe they heard a ball team or, but not East Tamar? Yeah. Um, barely that. And yet we were connected to them by the barrel of a gun. So I went there to East Tamar in November of 1991, with my colleague Alan Naren, who was writing for the New Yorker. And on this day, November 12, 1991, the people of East Tamar were protesting the killing of yet another young person, East Tamar. He had been killed on the steps of the church.

“Everyone was taking refuge in the Catholic churches of Tamar because for the first time,”

the UN had sent a delegation that would investigate the human right situation. They were going to send. So everyone was dropping out of school and work and going into the churches so they'd be protected to speak. But then we later learned the epihest of the U.S. the UN delegation didn't come. And so on this day, thousands of tamaries came out to the church for communion. The priest held it under the trees because there were so many. And then they marched

to the cemetery and we followed them. And this is unheard of in a, at the time, an occupied team or when there was no freedom of speech, no freedom of assembly, no freedom of protest. They marched. And they marched to the cemetery. We're so many young people. We're buried. And that's when we saw the Indonesian army, armed with U.S. and 16's marching up.

“Alan and I always held heat or equipment when we were talking to people because if they worked”

caught talking to journalists, they could be arrested, killed, disappeared. Now I took out my tape recorder. I slung it over my shoulder. I held up my microphone like a flag. Alan put the camera above his head and we walked to the front of the crowd. We knew the Indonesian army had committed

many maskers in the past, but never in front of Western journalists. Maybe we could head off this

attack. They marched up 10 to 12 abreast. They came around the corner. People couldn't escape because there were walls of the cemetery and either side of the road. They marched around the corner without hesitation, without provocation, without warning. They swept past us and they just opened fire on the crowd, ultimately killing over 270 timories on that day. A group of them surrounded us. They were shouting Australia, Australia. They wanted to know if we were from Australia,

which is like two or three hundred miles away. And we understood what that meant. When Indonesia first invaded, there was a group of Australian journalists with Australian broadcasting corporation ABC and they lined them up against a house and they executed them. And the Australian government hardly protested the killing of their journalists. We believed because years later, Indonesia and Australia would divide up the oil spoils and the teamwork gaps. So we wanted to make clear, we were not from

Australia. And as they beat me to the ground, Alan threw himself on top of me to protect me. And they beat him with the guns as well. And until they used them like bats, the USM-16s until they fractured his skull. As we lay there in the ground, they then put the guns to our heads. And we just kept saying, America, I threw my passport at them. It said United States of America, America, America. Finally, they pulled the guns from our heads. We believed because we were from

the same country. Their weapons were from. They would have to pay a price for killing us that they

never had to pay for killing the timories. And we understood at that moment, we in order to stock

this killing. We had to get out of the country to report it to the outside world because only outside pressure would stock this. Folks, I know I know things seem a little grim right now. You got the the MS now on in the background. 24 hours a day. And you got your Apple news open and you're constantly flipping around and doing all these different things. But I'm telling you, man, there is a new project on news

about the same news story from all the outlets all over the world. And they put them in one place. And they tell you where it's coming from. They give you, it's like, what is it like the ingredients? You know what I mean? Like, you might think to yourself, like, yeah, I mean, what is chipsahoy? How bad can it be? And then you look at the ingredients and you're like, raccoon anus?

“No, that's what's really not. It's probably not the correct compliment to say ground news tells”

you what part of your news is raccoon anus. That is probably not the log lying that they want to go to at the board meetings. But that is what they do. They tell you where these stories are coming from. The Nobel Peace Center has said that ground news is an excellent way to stay informed. It's a hell of a service that they provide. Go to groundnews.com/stuart. Subscribe for 40% off the unlimited access, vantage subscription discount available only for a limited time. That's groundnews.com/stuart

or scan the QR code on the screen. What you do so well is you connect the dots between into these areas that Americans are not particularly paying attention to. The nexus of corporate power and military might and all these different things. There's another, and I hate to

“walk you through some of the events of the film. But I think it lays out a good foundation for”

kind of some of the things we'll talk about later. But again, another example of you on the ground is in Nigeria, I believe, and Chevron, which sends helicopters of Nigerian soldiers to shoot people. And you, and I don't know where you get the wherewithal to do it, just go right up to the Nigerian Chevron building. And go, "Hey, I'm an American, may I jump in?"

Well, you know, Iowa is so inspired. This was years ago by this incredible Nigerian writer

and activist named Ken Sarawila. He was a gony from a gony land in the Niger Delta. And he threw his lot in with the Nigerian people. And he knew with his prestige, he could go outside the country and tell the world. Nigeria is Africa's most populous country. And Chevron and Shell were operating in the Niger Delta, disempowering so many Nigerians to give power to the rest of the world. And he came into our studio in New York at WBAI. And I didn't think we had, they just said he's here.

And I said, "Oh my God, our show is booked." And they said, "He's here for one day." Okay, two minutes. And he came on. And he talked about how these large multinational corporations

“depend on brutal dictatorships in order to suppress the population. And that's what he described.”

And I said, "Well, what about you? What does this leave you?" And he said, "I am a marked man."

And he went back to Nigeria and he was ultimately executed with aid other activists. He had been

taking on Shell Corporation. But we decided, after Ken was killed, I decided, I had to go to investigate the situation of the Niger Delta. And so I looked along with my colleague Jeremy Skayhill who worked at Democracy now, and I'm now found to drop certain news. Did great war reporting as well? Yeah. We went to investigate what was happening in the Niger Delta. And we found that Chevron had flown in the Nigerian military. The people in that area described this and we recognize the

Chevron helicopters. The mobile police were called the Killingo. That's the Kill and Go. And they were protesting the Nigerian military moved in and they killed two of the young men.

They critically wounded a third and they arrested others. And so we said, "We have to go to

Chevron headquarters and ask them about this." And that's when we went to the headquarters to speak the chief spokesperson. Mind blowing. They haven't on tape. It's unbelievable in its honesty. And it's outright, he is just forthcoming and direct, oh yeah, no Chevron. Yeah, no, we hired the helicopters and we sent the military. That guy just lays it out. And I said exactly who authorized it. I said who authorized it. He said that would be Chevron's

Management, Chevron's Management. I mean, it's a shocking example of, and it gets to the broader question when I think about what my kind of ideal of journalistic integrity or efficacy is. It's that.

CNN or MSNR, all these different places, they always say to you, "Hey, man, I really wish we could do that."

And you're like, "You're a fucking reporter." It's like, you not only can you do it, you have more resources than Amy Goodman will ever have. You can do it. You're on 24 hours a day. But I do, I want to say when it comes to, I don't even call them mainstream, by the way. Because, you know, I really do think that those who care about all of these issues from climate

“changed corporate power to war are mainstream. I think that's the mainstream. But I think a lot of”

good people go into the corporate networks because they think they have a broad platform where they

can report important issues. But they are the first ones now. And, you know, we just

celebrated 30 years of democracy now. But they, you know, early on, they would say, "Give us a break." Now, those very same reporters who may not be working for the networks or, for example, for the Washington Post, where the Jeff Bezos is paper, who just laid off a third of the news from hundreds of reporters saying, "You can't say this loud enough." And, I just want to say, we have this 30th anniversary. And, "Oh, my God, John, I wish you were there." But,

you know, I don't leave the house, right? You know, I don't leave the house, Amy.

“I just want to edit what point that out. I wouldn't go. You're just like a hologram. You don't”

really exist. I pretty much a hologram. That's pretty true. Well, we were at Riverside Church. This historic place where Dr. King gave his speech April 4th, 1967, a year to the day before he was assassinated in Memphis. The speech against the Vietnam War. And, at the time, the corporate media, I have the life magazine issue that castigated him. He said the United States is the greatest purveyor of violence on Earth. And, they said he did a disservice to his cause, his country, his

people. They said his speech read like a script out of radio, Hanoi. And, he just doubled down, because he connected militarism, racism, and materialism. And, he just kept edit. So, we went to this church, 2,000 people packed in. Oh, we actually had it February 23rd, but then there was that one day snowmageddon. Yes. And, we had to cancel it. 2,000 people. So, one thing that can stop any goodman is 18 inches of snow. No, it can't get up town. It was the fear that someone would slip

who came to see us. So, March 23rd. Oh, Juan Gonzalez flew in from Chicago. We've done democracy now together for 30 years. The great journalist who used to be at the Daily News, he had that Dianne, he had this Dianne. Oh, he did some great 9/11 stuff along with all of that. Oh, you know, John, you know, because of the great work he did. No, Juan Gonzalez, but he was spectacular. And,

“doing it for a paper, that was like, hey, I think this might get us in trouble. As soon he was”

behind, it first he was on the front page talking about the benzene, the cancer of all the shit that was in the air. That's right. And, he slowly was moved to behind the refrigerator ads. His editor was fired. Oh, wow. Yeah. But still, he kept at it and once done such great work right back to, you know, he was one of the founders of the young lords, like the equivalent of the Puerto Rican Black Panthers. Oh, no. In New York City, he talked about and he said in the film,

still the story, please, how they understood very quickly. They have to frame their own narrative. They had like hijacked ambulances and tuberculosis testing trucks to come up to Spanish Harlem and places where they were really needed. But they had to tell their story.

And the network newscasters, you know, on ABCMBCCBS, they said it is amazing how they make

downtown white New York tremble. But what they're doing, they have such popularity. But they had a newspaper called Palante Ever Forward. And, you know, those reporters became some of the leading reporter, those young lords became some of the leading reporters in New York. But so one fluid and he talked about the importance of independent media. Then, hooray for the riff rap, a great group, sang their song, Palante, like for the newspaper. And then Michael Steib of R.A.M., he sang,

Nermine Schaith gave her speech, Patty Smith, sang, piece of clothing, and what a delicious spoke, Massab-Abut-Toha, the great Palestinian poet who, such a beautiful man, Pulitzer Prize for

how do we end this 30 years as we move into the next century of democracy. Now, I see someone in the

“audience, the boss Bruce Franks. And he came up and he sang, and then all together, the musicians,”

sang Patty's iconic people have the power. And that's really the theme of democracy now over the last years. Yes, President Trump, any U.S. President, occupies the most powerful office on earth. But there is a force more powerful. And it is people everywhere in the streets, talking around the water cooler, organizing in their workplaces, or being fired or laid off from them,

that force involved with social change. You know, a few build a foundation. You never know

when that magic moment comes. But if you build that foundation, you will help to direct the future to make history. And those are the movements we cover. But Amy, the people have to be armed with information, with the information that they don't, that the dots have to be connected. And you know, the one thing that they always say, and it's such a strange formulation of what journalism should be, they always say, well, you're, you're not a journalist, Amy, you're an activist,

“and I don't understand how any journalist, and by the way, I think it's because they think activism is”

a partisan endeavor. But activism in the service of anti-corruption, or in the service of justice, or in the service of amplification of voices that don't get to go, is exactly what, then what is journal, journalism is not narration. It's not a security camera in the 7/11 that's just capturing

images. What you've infused, and what democracy now always did so well is you infused the passion

and the activism for justice, not part is about there's a great scene in the film. Bill Clinton calls into your program. It's the election of 2000, was it? Yeah. And it's election day. And so, Amy gets a chip. Bill Clinton calls, he's just calling a bunch of people, you know, he's called and it's democracy now, it's just another constituency. She lays out some of the best incisive questions to the point where like Bill Clinton, you don't see him because he's on the

phone, but you can imagine that Clinton has almost, you know, the cartoon that plimped in might

draw of Clinton, of just his face getting red like, you know, being rude, really young lady,

“stop asking me these questions. Well, it's such a great moment that it absolutely, I think”

illuminates what happens when independent activist anti-corruption media meets power. I mean, we were just doing our job as journalists to hold those in power to count. Right, he called into WBAI where democracy now is based. He was calling dozens of radio stations to get out the vote. And of course, when they called, it was like minutes before the show started and they said, you know, like I was calling. And I thought they said the white horse was calling,

which is a stabber and right in the village. Right, right, we're Dylan Thomas, drank himself. Sure, they got a little clock. I'll see what's out there right now. Yeah. And so I said, they said the white horse and I said the president would like to speak to you. I said the president of what? And they said the president of the United States. I said, oh my god, the white house, not the white horse, but he's calling. And I thought, even still, I thought this was a fake call,

but it didn't give them the internal number. I said, whatever, if he wants to call, yes, yes. He didn't call during democracy now, that hour. And so it was election day. We were going up to get coffee because we'd be there all night. Who knew that we'd have to be there for five weeks. But the next show, as we're walking out, the away ball, Turnetiva, the Latino music show, Gonzalo screams, "Any get in here." The president of the United States is on the

phone because he called into the station. So I ran in and me and Gonzalo did this interview with his producer and my two producers. And you know, people wait for their journalists wait for their whole lives to speak with the president of the United States. We had all of zero time to prepare for this interview. And he said, I said, I understand you're calling people to get out the vote. And he said something. And I said, well, people are wondering, why should they vote? How does

their power compare to corporations? And then I asked him about taking the Democratic Party to the

gonna, and we've got the highest employment. And he just went, and she really got heated.

“Part, you don't see in the film. I asked him about whether he would be granting”

clemency to Leonard Peltier, who was the native American leader who'd been in jail for decades. He said he was weighing it. Well, 25 years later, Biden in his last minutes in office, released Leonard Peltier. And I just went to the Native American reservation where he is in North Dakota. But I also asked him about sanctions about against Iraq, killing so many people. And he got so frustrated that I find you hostile. Come back over at times, disrespect. I said,

I'm just asking you critical question. I asked about his real Palestine. Finally, he said,

he had to go. And that was fine. And I went into the office, and the White House called me. And not the White House. And they said, you know, they were weighing banning me from the White House.

“And I said, what are you talking about? He called me. I didn't call him. And then they said,”

we told you he had a few minutes. You kept him on the phone for over half an hour. I said, he's the leader of the free world. He could hang up if he wants to. That's exactly right. And you know what? And he can also answer a couple of questions. I don't need to tell you. I am an old man. And the old man sometimes is very difficult to handle the progress of modern times. I'm still in my castanza era. Or I was when it comes to wallets.

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“other things that it got to stick down your pants. Am I allowed to say that stick down your pants?”

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about them, please support our show until then we say. That second scene where the White House

calls you and cast the gates you is the part that I found so fascinating because it speaks to the bargain that journalists and news organizations have made with power. That access is only granted conditionally. And those conditions negate the entire power of what good journalism is. Right. I call it the access of evil. We all know about the access of evil. The access of evil. The access of evil, trading truth for access is not worth it. The questions

you're going to ask for that access. Those softball questions. I mean, you saw a few years after the massacre. I was at the White House questioning Mike McCurray Clinton's spokesperson.

And it was at a time when amazingly, for the first time, Congress was cutting off had cut off

military training aid to Indonesia. I've been coughing since 9/11, too. No, I know. I know. I know. I know. I'm familiar with that, Kava. You are, you know it well. You better be on the program. Are you on the program? Maybe there's a drug of a program? I'm looking at it. Yeah. Get on that program. But on the massacre. So I asked Mike McCurray. You know, he was talking that it's President Clinton's 21st wedding anniversary with

his bride. The reporters were asking about golf clubs, had he used. And so I said, is he really going to be restoring military aid in Indonesia? And he wouldn't quite answer my question. And when I really pursued it, I said, some are saying that it's like this was at the time. This was

way. We see it as serving the national interest, which is just astonishing. We're killing a third

“of the population of East Timor, one of the great genocides of the late 20th century. And when I was”

pushing that, he said the turnip is dry. And all the reporters, many of the reporters in the room giggled and laughed with him. And it's that kind of not only trading truth for access, but it's a kind of peer pressure. And this is not worth it. I mean, politicians need journalists more than journalists need politicians. Our job is to do our job. It's not to win a popularity contest. There's a reason why the freedom of the press is enshrined in the U.S. Constitution and the first amendment,

because ultimately it's about the public's right to know. And we can't have a meaningful democracy

unless people have information. But what we have Amy is the theater of a democracy. It's a show. You know, I can't say how often I watch these, you know, the daily press briefing, where they put on a play for the American audience and Caroline Levitt, or whoever is in that position, whether it was Mike McCurray in those days or everything, comes out and lies pretty much the whole time. And the journalists sit there and they've been cast, I guess, as the Pina Gallery and occasionally

they'll get off a good question. But you're right. They don't cooperate with each other. They're all combating each other for a certain access or trying to make their name. And this theater of the absurd as though that press briefing is illumination in any form. It's not. Well, you know,

“remember when Newt Gingrich was House Speaker, he would show the day he established the sort of this,”

well, he would hold a press briefing at the day. And he got extremely frustrated with my questions. According to a big piece in the Washington Post, he ended it because of my questions. Oh, really? But they do capture this wasn't a press briefing, but they do capture the moment I had with Newt Gingrich. It was at the Republican Convention. And his mom had just an interview with Connie Chung where she said that a new to her son had called the First Lady

Bitch. That was Hillary Clinton. And so I went up to Newt Gingrich. I mean, his words matter. He's House Speaker. And I said, Mr. Speaker, will you apologize to American women for calling

the First Lady a bitch? And he said something like, I never said what you said. I said,

and I said, are you calling your mother a lawyer then? Okay, sure. And that's when he went, no, she's a bitch. She's not a lawyer. Oh, God. She's getting me in trouble. But you know, it's our job to ask the questions. But it doesn't get done. And it or it's scripted. And so it gives you the illusion of information. And that I really do think that's the difference. And I'm wondering what you, how does it get captured? Why does it get captured? Because

like you said, a lot of them are really good people. A lot of them are committed. How does it end

“up as this Kabuki theater? Well, I mean, I think, and I think you should ask some of them. But I think”

they know how to rise in the corporate media ladder. And when you start saying, I want to go cover that protest, you keep getting sideline. And you'd say, well, I went to the White House press briefing, but they wouldn't call on me. This isn't good for them. And so instead, you ask a question that will allow you to ask a question the next day. But I mean, for us, then you just have to be outside and look at the Pentagon reporters. They did something interesting. When they

were told recently by Secretary Hegsef that they had to sign an oath that they would not release class of information without the Pentagon's approval. Interestingly, across the political spectrum, a lot of them said no. So they were outside the Pentagon. And then in that case, that's where they need to be. A judge just ruled not once, but twice that that demand is unconstitutional. You have a P refusing to say Gulf of America. They say Gulf of Mexico. I thought they could

compromise. They could say Gulf of America. If you'd say with the accent, it's half way. It's meaning half way. Amy, it's this, it's a fine solution. How do we unravel that symbiotic relationship where Washington is this nexus now of corporate power? It's kind of a self-propagating

that flow towards these five individuals that we, the gods that will decide our future. And then those individuals will filter back into the political system, tens and hundreds of millions of dollars to keep those people in sconst in power. And the media around it is also feeding out of the same trough. It's this. I mean, they're owned by the same. Right. You've got Washington Post owned by the

billionaire Amazon founder Jeff Bezos. And what does he do? He pays forty million dollars for the

Malania documentary and apparently another thirty five million to push it. But that's forty million dollars giving it to Trump. And at the same time, he is slicing the newsroom by hundreds of reporters. I think both are Korean favor. And now apparently Amazon is talking about reviving the apprentice

“and it'll be Donald Trump Jr. who will be the star of that. And they own the press. And that's why”

these corporate mergers are such an enormous problem with the elephants with you have them owning paramount skydance. Sure. They just bought us. And now they want to buy CNN. Warner Brothers,

Discovery CNN and HBO. That's right. CNN, HBO, all those things. But how do you on if there is

a media industrial complex? And I think there is where it's kind of this revolving door where everybody's eating out of the same trough. Independent media is the answer yet. Why doesn't independent media grow in that same way? Like what grows is the sort of podcast universe like this where we're just analyzing things. But they're not doing the work that you guys do, which is information gathering. We have a model of listener viewer reader support.

We started 30 years ago on nine Pacific a radio and community stations. We thought we'd end after the election. It was the only daily election shown public broadcasting in 96. But there was such a demand for it after that we continued. So more and more stations picked us a picture set that's on the NPR stations as well. Then 9/11 happened. We were at that firehouse downtown television and right in the thick of it. And one TV station in New York Manhattan

neighborhood network public access had a link to that community media center. They started broadcasting us as emergency broadcasting public access TV stations around the country started asking for the show. Then PBS stations then NPR stations and now we're about 1500 public radio and television stations around the country and around the world. By the way public access is also under assault right now. But even NPR and NPR back to away from you guys for certain stories,

fearing the loss of funding. And for us we had such a strong global

“supporter base from 30 years ago. You have to understand we couldn't afford anything.”

And the intertubes it was right around the time of the intertubes coming into being right. So democracy now.org. It was before the word podcast. And we put up the MP3 and radio stations. That's how they could take it for free. The other networks could pay to have satellites to put it out. We couldn't. But because we put it on at democracy now.org, then people would transcribe it immediately. Someone in Mexico, someone in Montana, someone in Michigan, segment 1, 2 and 3.

Our transcription coordinator put it all together every day. The transcription will be either right away to this day. Most shows don't put their transcript up. And then network reporters interestingly would take those transcripts to the greenhouse to the Pentagon to the State Department. And it would be based on their questions. Real people closest to the story. Not the

“no nothing pundits. And that's what we call trickle up journalism. But it grew so fast because”

of that we put total information online. Do you think it's your training Amy in, you know, there's a different aesthetic when you're dealing with radio news. You know, your background in radio before because it's, it's an interesting transition that you guys made from radio and

B.A.I. and all those things. Two television. But you never lost, you know, a lot of television

focuses on it's a visual medium. And unless we have tape, you guys always seem to have remembered your aesthetic from radio. And it's a different way of telling stories. It you're absolutely right.

democracy now on that. Well, let me just tell the story of Pacifico, which is facing

1949 founded by a war resistant named Lou Hill who came out of the detention camps in Berkeley, California, they established KPFA, a 1949. Oh, I didn't know that was, that was done literally from someone who had been interned in, in, in World War II. Yes. And then KPFK and Los Angeles, 1959 went on the air. My station WBAI 1960 WPFW in Washington, 1977. But the fourth station was KPFT in Houston. And in the Petro metro, it goes on the air in the spring of 1970,

within weeks, it's blown up by the Ku Klux clan. They struck dynamite to the base of the transmitter.

KPFT rebuilds themselves quickly. And in a few weeks, they go back on. And the clan straps

15 times the dynamite to the base of the transmitter. And right in the middle of our Luca 3 singing Alice's restaurant, which I thought was a good song. They blew it up again. It's a good song. It's just very long. And that's probably what happened. So then it takes months for KPFT to rebuild. And in January of 1971, our Luca comes back to Houston to finish its song on the air. And yes,

“it might have taken a long time. And KPFT is back on their feet. I can't remember if it was the”

grand dragon or the exalted Cyclops because I often confuse their titles. It's very hard to tell about parts sometimes because if you got to look at the hoods, it's like one of them has like a relinquished hood that has like little bars on it or something. But he said it was his proudest act. That's because he understood how dangerous Pacific is, how dangerous, independent, media is. Dangerous because it allows people to speak for themselves. And when you hear a

Palestinian child or an Israeli grandmother, when you hear an Iranian uncle or an Anton Afganistan, like that Iranian uncle might remind you of your uncle and you might not like your uncle, but it makes you much less likely to want to destroy him. You cannot caricature stereotype him

“anymore. And that is what fuels the hate groups. I think the media can be the greatest force”

for peace on earth instead all too often it is wielded as a weapon of war, which is why we have to take the media back. Yes, and manufacturing consent to create a narrative because that's more

interesting. I always felt that that was part of what happened in Iraq is there is a certain within

the corporate media environment that is wars more interesting than not war. And it's a good story and it's a build up and they almost create the kind of, I'm not saying they create the war, but they do create a kind of lubricant for the war that allows it to take some of the friction out of the tube. I mean, absolutely. In a time of war, the media tends to circle the wagons around the White House. Look at what President Trump said this past weekend. He said,

“if you question the war, I think he said, if you say that the U.S. is losing the war or not”

winning the war, that is treason. He had said, called them the Pharisees. I mean, he went, he went biblical that if you were to question their decisions, you're literally against God forget about even America. And this is such an enormous problem. I mean, when you look at Iraq, I mean, what did Iraq have to do with 9/11? Of course not, but there are commonalities from teamwork to Iraq, to Venezuela, to Iran, three letters, oil. And you know, I'm not saying it's the

only reason, but they understood this with Iraq. Remember, didn't they call originally the invasion of the U.S. called the invasion of Iraq, Operation Iraqi Liberation? Yeah. And they realized that the acronym was a oil. So they changed it to operation. They couldn't do that. They understood it. Even they knew that was too far that they would do that. Am you ever felt like that stories that you had done had been utilized for the wrong purposes? Were there any

situations where you felt like you walked into a situation and regretted

has on things like that? I mean, it's a good question. I think of times if someone is taken hostage, if someone in different countries, the family doesn't want to put out word right away. I may hear about it and they're terrified that they'll be killed right away. I, in most cases, would not defy that if someone felt that someone's life was at stake at that moment.

“I mean, it's just though so important to hear people describe their own experience and if they”

can have someone closest and I was just thinking about a woman name. At the end of still a

story, please, I mean, T and Carl didn't incredible job, but they continued to add to the film

until now and now it's out all over the country. A woman in Minneapolis, I mean, the people of Minneapolis have taught us so much that's people across the political spectrum because it's about community and about not capitulating in advance to things. And, you know, if an immigrant family is afraid to go out and buy groceries, people would buy groceries for them, afraid to take their kid to school, walk their kid to school, but I was thinking of all your ramen. She is an autistic

disabled woman who is unarraded the doctor. Immigration, immigration agents stop her smash her window

“as she shouts to them as they drag her out of the car, cutting her seatbelt. I'm disabled. I'm”

disabled. They say two effing late, except they use the forward, like President Trump does. So they

drag her out. They injure her seriously. She's taken to the Whipple detention center. She doesn't know what's happened. When she gets out, we interview her and then Ilhan Omar, the Congress member from Minneapolis invites her to the state of the Union address. You know, they can each get a guest. Ilhan Omar, the only Somali refugee Congresswoman who President Trump calls Garbage, he goes to hope Somali community in many areas. No, he's denigrated the entire community.

Oh, my God. So she goes to the state of the Union, Alia Raman. She's U.S. citizen and I hate to even

qualify this by saying she's U.S. citizen as if you're not U.S. citizen. You can be treated however

they want to treat you. Right. Exactly. So she goes and she's in the gallery where all of the guests are and she's between some police chief and some mayor of two different towns that others had invited. And she's there and she's sitting and President Trump's giving that longest speech ever of a state of the Union. And the Republicans are standing up plotting, making noise sitting. And you know, if it was a Democratic person would have been the other way, Democrats have been standing up and

down standing, roaring, sitting down, applauding. And then he starts to denigrate the people of Minneapolis. And she stands up in quiet witness. She stands there. She has a cane. She stands there. Security takes her out of a take her down. Once she's already injured for Minneapolis, we had invited around the next state not knowing any of this. We wanted to ask what's it like to be there at state of the Union after this happened to you in Minneapolis. She is taken to jail.

She gets out for in the morning. She comes on democracy now. And she says, I am wearing the same clothes that I wore to the state of the Union because I was arrested. I was taken down. It was like a supervisor had to say to the agents who took her out. What are you doing? Right. And she came on

“democracy now. And it's so important though. It's Amy. It's so and it's and many Minneapolis is a great”

example of that because what you see is they lie about things that happen. And so if you don't have witness, if people don't have the courage like this woman to stand up or the footage like they had in the case of Renee Good and Alex pretty, this is what they lie about when we have witnesses and cameras. Imagine what they lie about when we don't have that. Exactly. And so all yeah, they have that video. And then here, because she told her own story and to much now, New York times

takes it. Washington Post, the networks take it. That's the idea of still this story. Please. Please. Folks, I don't know if you know the Met Gala was on. I didn't go but I could have gone because do I want to say an icon in that world? Yes, I don't think I don't think anyone myself,

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“poignant. You travel back to a place, a town where I believe it was either your grandmother or your”

great grandmother was from. It was Rivna, Ukraine where my grandmother was born. Now there's a, there's a mass grave there where the Nazis had come in. Your grandmother was, had gotten out because of the pogroms a little bit earlier. And you stand by the stone that they have commemorating this mass slaughter of 10s of those. Right. And you say a silent or you sing a prayer and it's incredibly moving about the dehumanization of the Jewish people during that time. And then immediately

you refer it back to Gaza. And I thought that to juxtaposing those two things so beautifully encapsulated how this dehumanization continues today and that these slaughteres

are not justified wherever they may go. It was that never again anywhere. Never again for anyone

for anywhere. Right. But, but, but there's an art to that narration to remind people that the suffering that you believe your people are going through is also what other people are going through and you cannot cut their humanity off. Well, you know, John, when I grew up in Hebrew school, I was always obsessed with almost why would non-Jews help us help Jews during World War II? Why would they hide away a family in a barn or in an attic or help someone because they're putting

their own lives at risk? And I was always amazed. They're called the righteous. And I was stunned by what they did and the enormous risk they took. And you look today at what is happening in Palestine. And, you know, I went to cover at the end of this film. They show the covering of of Grand Central. You know, a thousand mainly Jews come out on Shabbat, on Friday night.

And they shut down Grand Central saying, "Never again for anyone anywhere." And their

t-shirts said Jews say no. And we're interviewing them. That's the important thing. I mean, the networks how far they'll go, they might show a protest. But go and interview the people. But they don't do that. What they'll do is they'll use that framing, especially on the cable networks, to frame it as anti-Semitic radicals were there. Meanwhile, you're on the ground with them. And they're all Jewish. I mean, like, we're not what we're saying is the Netanyahu government.

“And the Zionists who are saying, "No, this has all been given us by God." And that's what we're”

going to do. Like, that's what they're rejecting. Right. It's Fox News. And they were saying, the level of anti-Semitism is unconscionable. It shocks the conscience. And they're showing the same protest. And they're not contradicting because they don't talk to anyone. And then you see this

above her ankles, saying to the police, "Take me." And you see the children of Holocaust survivors

“who are older women now, saying, "Never again holding up their handcuff hands." And you see a”

young obscure state legislator, who's there, who I am. By the name of Zoran Maldoni, who says, "I am here in solidarity with the Jewish community." And I had asked him, "This wasn't included in the film. Are you getting arrested today?" But he had told me he couldn't because he had just gotten arrested like a week or two before. And that could lead him to prison. So he was there supporting

people. And amazing. Think of what has happened with Zoran Maldoni from that to speaking up right now

as many of New York City. But as the cycles continue to repeat themselves, does it cause you is it disheartening? You know, so much of what you were doing early on as you were drawing that line

“between corporate power, American money, the violence being done to people in other places in”

our names for our fuel and all those things. And then you draw the line today, American dollars being used with weapons to kill people that have we have no beef with that have nothing to do with us for fuel and all these other things. And it's, you know, look, the show that I do, like, there's a certain impotence to it that is, it can be cathartic, but it's impotent. And that that's a frustration that I deal with. But I wonder when you're, you're doing it in a manner that

is really, you're embedded in it with those voiceless people. And I wonder, what does that do to you emotionally? Um, first of all, you're underestimating to say the least your own power because humor means so much and obviously president Trump pays attention to say the least. You know, after it come off the show every day, I suffer from PTSD post-traumatic show disorder. It is a lot to take in, but think about what it is for the people, whether we're talking about

Iran. I mean, you just want to say when you're talking about Bezos, who owns the Washington Post and gutted the newsroom staff almost the whole Middle East division. We had on a Washington Post reporter right at that time a few weeks ago, who did an analysis of the first day of the U.S. Israeli strike on Iran in southern Iran, menab, the girl school, the primary girl school. She did an analysis. You know, it looks like it was a U.S. Tomahawk missile hit the school 175

people died about a dozen teachers and mainly little girls going to school. And this Washington Post reporter was an our studio doing this incredible analysis of it, but she didn't work for the Washington Post anymore because she had just been laid off. Now, she still did that and people now, everywhere are still doing things. And the media, I couldn't have predicted social media how it

rose up over these years. We always went to, we never expected people would come to us. We go to

where everyone is and we put out the news on YouTube, on Instagram, on TikTok, whatever. And I don't think we can predict with the shuddering of newspapers, the gutting of them, the networks consolidating or disappearing, who knows of HBO documentaries. Those documentaries, like Tia's, the James, will still be there if it's taken over by Trump allies who knows. But new entities emerge. And if we can just be a model for what that new entity could be in the rest of the world, they

know state media. And they know private media, but they don't know listener viewer, reader supported

“media. And that's what we want to be a model of. And the hunger for independent voices, you know,”

I'm traveling the country with the film, talk doing the Q&As after. We were just, and we do fun razors for either NPR stations, for PBS stations. We just did Howard University's PBSWTWPFW

Pacifica Radio, WAA at Morgan State. These have been amazing. And in Baltimore, when we got there

at the movie theater, it's called the Charles of Baltimore, big sign, the Devil Wears product.

place. It was we pulled up. That I mean a place was packed to the gills. And I go, oh my God,

it's going to be empty. And everyone's going through the Devil Wears product. So anyway, I go in. And everyone's saying, oh my gosh, we loved much now. I said, really, so all these folks who are going to the Devil Wears product. And they go, what are you talking about? We're going to steal the story. And then I looked on the screen. And it said, steal the story sold out. But they were still selling plenty of tickets to the Devil Wears product. Yes, there is a hunger for independent

media. I see the media is a huge kitchen table that stretches across the globe that we all sit

“around and debate and discuss the most important issues of the day, Lauren, peace, life and death.”

Like how you grew up. It really, in many ways, it's a reflection of the shop is stable.

You're sitting around with your mom and dad who you sound like incredible people. And they were

incredible. And sort of three brothers. And practicing, I was thinking of the one who ran David's press who ran. That's Dave's press. He writes books with me. He's a great journalist in Vermont. But it really, it's grounded in a kind of a familial warmth and love of criticism, discussion, openness, honesty. And even after we have vicious fights, we still love each other. But it's, and you've, you've, you've taken that aesthetic and and infused it into this

really incredible media entity. Well, to, yeah, I mean, that is the power of the voices. I mean, they, I bask in there, glow, but just to say with that image, seeing it as a huge kitchen table where we debate the key issues, anything less than that is a disservice to the servicemen and women of this country because they can't have these public debates on military bases about whether they're sent to kill or be killed. Anything less than that is a disservice to a democratic society.

“I couldn't agree more. And I think the moral foundation of what you do has to be infused into”

news organizations where it's corporate or not. And I think the people in those organizations have more power than they believe that they do. And they have to start taking that back. You know, as you look at the future of independent media and, you know, sort of democracy stands as kind of a lynchpin of it and a real guiding force for people and a light. Is there a future for it that is, you know, benefactor driven is there a a basis, but for independence that carries it through.

I think it comes out of community. And the support has to come from the community.

It's always got to come out of community, right? I mean, because ultimately, look, I mean,

baseless by the Washington Post, no one knew what he would do with it. But during that time,

“they developed that slogan democracy dies in darkness, which is true. But look,”

it's very dark at the Washington Post right now. I was going to say that and they're the ones who who had the dimmer switch and they're the ones that were pulling it. Amy, I just want to thank you for for spending the time with us. I'm such an admirer and the work that you've done over all these years is just it's it's legendary. And so we so appreciate and all the people that are behind the scenes that works so hard, although I have to say you do more with less than any

organization of your ill that I have ever seen in my life. Well, my colleagues are my inspiration. Yeah, it's fantastic. So Amy, goodman, host and executive producer democracy now and the movie is steal this story. Please go to stealthestory.org and find out where it's planned and go check it out because it's incredibly moving and incredibly inspiring and I appreciate you. So thank you for talking to us. Thank you so much. Hope to see folks at the movie theater. Absolutely. See you soon.

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20% off better plants and better growing at fast growingtrees.com. Using the CoTWS to check out fast growingtrees.com, CoTWS. Now's the perfect time to plant. Let's grow together. Use TWS to save today offers valid for limited time terms and conditions apply. Amy, God, Ben. I loved that. Oh, God. She's so good. She's, you know, it's great she though is when you realize the amount of work that they're doing like three of them.

Literally, I was shocked by that in the documentary. stunned. Yeah. There's, there's a great one of like a documentary that she's putting together and she's literally editing herself while she's

on the air. She's slicing the tape. That's amazing. I saw that storyline on like the first episode

of Newsroom and I was like that would never happen. And then I see it in this dog actually happening. Like, oh shit. Yeah, it's amazing. She is next level. I just, I am fan-girling from a journalist perspective. She really gave journalists like me the courage and the permission to avoid the pressures that the industry puts on people. And we talked to some of those like, you know, trying to write the click-badiest article so that you can get a bonus or a chief internet glory with the sexiest

of more stories, let's say. But I don't know. She really stands out as someone who reports the story that she doesn't see and wants told. And a little like interesting side is that I was a

former national security reporter. And I would write stories that I knew would not get clicks.

And one of them, like, 10 years ago, was about how the American Psychological Association voted to ban its members from participating in national security interrogations after what we know. Yes. And it went fine. Like, I got this great story that in C.L.Swear and then it vanished. And then a little bit later in her 20th anniversary book, it was cited. And she had a whole section about people and the power that they have. And so I just think it kind of brings it full circle

of eyes, a journalist, have power. These individuals have power. And together, you have even more power to create the reality you want to live in. That's awesome. Yeah. Can I ask you a question about that? Because it does. I would imagine that most young people, and when I say young people, I'm talking about Jillian Lauren and Brittany, most young people, go into that business because it's a calling because they feel an obligation. They're drawn to issues of justice or they're drawn

to things. In your mind, when you were there, how does that get beaten out of them? Or stolen from them? I mean, I touched on this, but I've worked at places that have bonus structures. That if you get a baseline salary of peanuts. And then if you achieve a certain level of clicks on certain stories, you can get bonuses. So literally, some people is livelyhood. It's tied up with writing the sexiest story possible. But on like a grander scale, I mean,

“people know that in order to get a bigger platform, you have to be known. And the ways of doing”

that are writing sexy stories and getting them in front of people. But yeah, she shows that everything is possible. And cozing up to the powers that be the controls. The exact access to power, access to corporations. Yeah, the incentive structure is just fucked all the way down. It's like, it's not just the journalists that have their own incentive structure. It's the, oh, yes, they work for that too. Right. Top, top down. And it needs us to where we are now. Yeah. That's right.

Oh, yeah, journalists. I mean, are at the bottom of the like power structure. It definitely comes from the top. I mean, there's a pressure on editors to get the structure to certain ways. So that they have success. And it goes all the way up. There was a point in the documentary that I loved so much, which is they were at the Republican National Convention in 2008. And there's all these

“protests outside. And I think Amy got arrested. Yeah. That was the same Paul, right? That was, yeah,”

she got arrested. Yeah. And they interview Katie Kurik. Yes. And she asks, are you going to be

I would love to, but we have all these speeches. And she said, she literally says, they have

all these things that they want us to show. And you're like, who wants you to show? All these speeches that they want us to show. They, you're not a cameraman, you're a journalist. Like, you have some agency in this. I love that little line. Like, she's like, I'm aware of it as if that matters. And no shade to Katie. Like, I'm sure it's not just her, but no. No, it's everybody. But you know, in their hearts, you know that they got into this business to do the right thing,

“to tell the right story. And I, I honestly believe like, they could do it. They could overturn.”

I don't think that the incentive system is, I think you could make a profitable news business out of what democracy now does using them as your touchstone, not BuzzFeed or whatever the fuck people use. I think it takes a leap of faith. It just takes a lot of bravery. bravery, right? But yeah, you saw, she was in East Timor. She's in like, oh my gosh, putting yourself in literal harm's way. And you know, it's like the exact opposite. Like,

when she said an exclusive is a failure. Like, that's just the exact opposite of this, like, save it for the book culture. That we're seeing right now. Where everything comes out a year and a half later. And they wanted all to themselves. Right. Word. Well, it was fantastic.

Pretty, pretty, what do the kids want to know from us? Alrighty. First up, John, do you think

“Fetterman is going to flip to the Republicans? Betterman. I think the Republican caucus is”

if I know correctly, no hoodies allowed. Suddenly they're okay with his hoodie. Yeah, no. I think the Republican caucus is like a country club. I think there might be a dress code. I think he got to wear at least like a polo shirt. So I don't think, I mean, to be fair to Fetterman, like, I don't know how he would be a Republican. Like, he goes along with them on, I guess, Israel, which I really don't understand. And maybe there's like a couple of, you know, he'll

throw a bump, but as a Republican, I don't understand where he would fit in, unless he just wants like to be in a better office or get a better committee role, but like, he's not a Republican. Do you see what he said about Platner? That. No, what do you say? Like, the Republicans love Platner. The Republicans love Platner? Yeah, he said that. What does that mean? I just love how all of these Democrats are like pointing the finger like, no, you're going to be a Republican. You're going to be a

“Republican. No, he's going to be a Republican. I think he should just draw the two strings on the”

hoodie and just pull it down. Shut the fuck up for just a little while. But he will wear a suit when Netanyahu comes to town. Right. He's like, I'll dress up for him. He's got a very peculiar set of, he's got great empathy oftentimes for marginalized groups, yet in that situation, truly is just, I'm not, I'm not looking at anything else, but Netanyahu. It's such a, it's such an odd dichotomy from how he is with almost everything else. I can't follow his logic. No, but I will say this.

He is the senator. I'm most dressed like, honestly, probably saves. I'm dressed like a now. You don't know that. I'm ludilist, but pretty much everything else is straight federal. To be honest with you. I've been federal minning it since probably like ninth grade before him, maybe. Yeah,

something like that. What else? What else? What else? John, why do you think the Democrats never

found a good nickname for a Trump? How about dummy Don? Do you shoot on or a Trumpty dumpy? Yeah, that's probably why. Because none of those are any. I had one four years ago, fuck face on clown stick, which I used when he and I were in a Twitter war together. Well, he was in a Twitter work. I didn't have Twitter, and he went after me one night, because my real last name is Lee Boots. And so he felt that I was hiding that I'm Jewish,

which if, you know, I don't know where else you would see this face other than like a poster for Fiddler on the roof. Like I, you could, whatever my name is, it's pretty obvious. And I talk about it all the time about growing up Jews. So I, he said, you know, his name is John Lee Boots. So he's an imposter and why run from your heritage. And so I tweeted back at him, Donald Trump's real name is fuck face on clown stick. Why would you run? And so suddenly, he's getting bombarded,

and like 12 hours later, he just tweets out. Everybody thinks fuck face on conflict is so funny. And they're all tweeting at it. It's not original. It's not funny. And then like we didn't hear anything else about it until like two weeks later, at three in the morning, he just tweets out.

Wait, was he president during this time or was this? He was not. He was in his, he was in his,

I do videos from my office era. Okay. Not to put it into a swifty tone. But he was in that era. And I just thought, well, this isn't sane that this guy is not presidential. Not, I mean, forget about presidential, running a large kingdom. Like real estate thing. Like you're up at three

“in the morning, just randomly calling people places. Was that the last time that you guys interacted?”

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, we, we've interacted a couple of times in person before all that. Yeah. I had him on the daily show at which point. And by the way, like his

predilection for lying is not new. It is how he conducts his business. Like he was on the show.

He's like the apprentice is the number one show in America. And I was like, it's actually, I think, 30 seconds. Like it was, it was on the downswing. So I'm like, I don't think that's true. And he's like, number one, you're like, Oh, sure. It reminds me, have you ever seen the footage of Mike Wallace interviewing Roy Cone who was Trump's lawyer and confidant and mentor? Those are not no right cone was the, he worked with Joe McCarthy on the House of Americans Committee.

Like, truly the epitome of a bad person. Like, it's, it's a person with ill intent who learns the ways of the legal system so that he can weaponize it against good human beings. And he was Trump's guy. Like, you don't hire Roy Cone if you feel like, I'd like my business to be above board. He's a guy, but it's such an interesting interview. Mike Wallace is saying, Roy Cone is sick at this time and he's dying. He has AIDS. And Mike Wallace says, forgive me,

you know, but the rumors around that you are, you know, back in the day then they referred to it.

“You are a homosexual. That's how they would, you know, on television. Like, now he would just go,”

rumor is your fabulous. Is that true? That's how good. So it's rumors your homosexual and that you have AIDS. What? No. I don't have AIDS. You can call my doctors. We called your doctors and they can't talk to us unless you say they can. Are you saying we can call them? I don't have AIDS. I have a liver cancer. It's, it's different. They just give you the same drugs as AIDS. That's what I'm not gay. I'm not, you know, Mike says or, you know, people think there might be a moment where you come out of the

closet, come out of the closet for what? I'm not a homosexual and I don't have AIDS. And like, this just goes on. And Mike Wallace is being very respectful, but somewhat insistent. And it goes on and on and on. And then the code of it is, Roy Cone, a gay man, has died of AIDS. But it was such an interesting exercise in, and you almost felt like in the moment, Roy Cone believed it. And maybe that's the secret of it. Maybe that's the Kistanza of it all. Like, it's not a lie if you

“believe it. Yeah. I think Trump believes his own lies to some extent. I do. Is that the dynamic?”

I don't know. I feel like with the Tucker Carlson interview that just happened and he was saying, like, that man just does not know much information. Like, probably sounds good enough to him to believe without it. Enough context. But there's another guy who, how, how would Tucker know? There's

another guy who's literally asking the thing, you said he might be the antichrist. I never said that.

I never said it. Here it is. It's written here. That never came out of my mouth. Here's the video. I never said that. I never said that because I don't know what the antichrist is. Like, they are, it is a grifter subculture. And they're all a part of it. And Tucker's move is just the latest shift of the grift. That's all this is. There's no epiphany. It's just, oh, that fucking ship is sinking. And the media doesn't hold them accountable. Then move on to the next thing. And then

New York Times does a profile of Tucker over the weekend. Right. Like, oh, this is an interesting transformation. No, it's not. And why is he transforming? Because he knows how to transform. Because he's an opportunistic asshole. Wow. Buzz ya, go boom. Now, there's a nickname that'll stick. All right, what's the last one? Last one. John, what's your favorite emoji? Oh, the emoji is not, we're not talking about a giffy. No, or giffy. Well, what's your favorite

giffy? Do you have one of those? Generally, there was a baby at a hockey game who was like,

holding like, she looks like she's eating some cotton candy. And it's like, sugar rush. Suddenly, just dopamine. And she's just like, I will fucking kill you. I like that one. I like SpongeBob coming out of the shirt. Oh, I've gotten that one. Yes. Have I said that to you? That's that's a big one. Anything with the dog. Of course. But what's the emoji? We have a guess. I don't do many of them

to be to be quite honest. Poop is always big. I like I'll slap a poop on something,

depending. I don't do a loop or this face. Oh, the grimace grimace guy. We were going to go

“our polymarket was thumbs up because anytime he's in John, I think it's like, do you want to”

do 11 a.m. or 12 p.m. And he's like, just thumbs up. Yes. Boston. I, yes. That is, that is correct. You're, you're absolutely right. Generally, they're not, they're, yes, they're not, they're questions. And I'm just like, yes. What's, what's, what's your, Gillian? What's your emoji go to? Oh, I like the, um, I like the one I close and then you're telling out, like that's been that, that is to indicate like, that's crazy pants.

“Yeah, or just like where she's having a good time. All right. Drunk. What's your, what's your,”

what's your go to? So in this administration, I've been using a lot of the upside down smiley and a lot of the Melty smiley. Yes. And the, and the head, the explosion head. Oh, yeah. That's a good, yeah, good. I do explosion head sometimes pretty. Um, I do a lot of like the eyes, like looking to

the side. Oh, the two, like, that's yeah. Yeah, because I'm always like, what's the T or like,

I have you ever found yourselves in a conversation where like in person, somebody says something and you go, and you will actually do because of the emoji. Yes. You will do the face in real life.

“I do the grimace a lot. Yes. I think so. I think I do that too. And because of the,”

I absolutely do. The Chrissy Teagan gift where she's like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like I was just a doctor that face because of that. But know that in conversation, I don't ever use in real life, the poop emoji. That, that, that I, that I, that I don't do. But your dog does. That's, that's,

that's really is go to. Uh, that, that, that is always along there. Uh, guys fantastic, uh,

program, so nice to catch up and talk to Amy Goodman and, and you guys are lead producer, Lauren Walker, producer, Brittany and the Maddox producer, Jillian Spear, video editor and engineer Robatole, audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce and our executive producer is Chris McShane and Katie Gray. We will join you guys again next week. The weekly show with John Stewart is a comedy central podcast is produced by Paramount Audio

and Bus Boy Productions.