Diving Deep on Doughnuts, with Fany Gerson

- It's a game. - It is.

“- It's a game with hot oil, you're playing with literal fire and good luck.”

- From King Arthur Baking Company, this is Things Baker's No. I'm Jessica Badalana, King Arthur's staff editor.

- And I'm David's Marking, King Arthur's editor director. And today, it's our donut episode. - Donut time coming. - Yeah. - Donut day. - Is there a donut day? - No, there's definitely a donut day.

There are multiple donut days. And today is one of them. And I'm going to start today's episode with a little story time. Gather around children. - Oh, I'm here.

- So, there is a family story about donuts that I thought was like a nice. - It's another one. - A bottle on our family story. - A bottle on a family story. It's another one that's like, "Is it funny or is it sad or let you decide?"

But kind of like my car crash, one in the Chinatown Bay, because if people haven't heard about it, they can go back and hear about that. - So similar story. So listeners of this podcast, and you know that I grew up not far from King Arthur headquarters in rural Vermont. And I was probably like, eight or maybe 10 years old.

And it was a snowy winter day.

And I got a call from a friend inviting me to come for a play day. - I waited for that call. - I waited for that call. - I waited for that call. - So, you know, I brought me my parents into taking me to my friend's house.

We, at that time, had an old Pontiac station wagon, you know, the kind of the wood panel. - Oh, yeah. - The wood panel, I'm using quotes because it was not really wood. - And so I beg my dad and my dad sets off to my friend's house,

which is like, but, you know, windy dirt road as many houses in rural Vermont are. And we get like, parway up the road, and the car will not. Like, this tires are spinning. Like, we can't get up the hill. No traction.

And I'm desperate to go to this play day. I probably like you. Like, they were probably a few in far between me and so. I was bound in determined to go to this play day. So I said to my dad, it's fine.

The house is just around the bend.

I'll walk. - But trucks. - Yeah. - In dependent child, and my dad was like, okay.

“So he drops me off and he goes, I think, to work.”

- He slides down the hill. - He backs up. He leaves me on this road. I start walking. And I round the bend, and it's the strangest thing with the house is not there.

And I think, I must have just missed remembered. - Okay. - So I keep walking, alone on the start road. And it starts knowing like a little harder now. And I'm walking, and I'm walking, and I'm walking.

And you know, this is like pre cell phone pre. Meanwhile, the family that I was supposed to have to play to, this is like called my mother and said like, your daughter is not showing up. - Oh no, my gosh.

- And then this car drives up. - Okay, I would run. - Oh, because this was like peak 80's stranger danger. Like, do not talk to strangers, do not get in a car with strangers. - No.

- And this older man. - See, not in the dark. - In the dark snow, it was in the dark. - No. - And he leans out the car window, and he's like, are you lost?

- And I at that point was like, yeah, I lost. I don't, you know, like, I shouldn't get in the car with this, but also like, I can't keep walking forever. And so this is like, what? - It's gonna end badly either way.

I can't choose your place. - So he's like, get in the car, and I'll drive you to my house, and you can call your parents. - To use it.

- I did, I did. - I got in the car, this door is happy ending though, and we drive a couple of miles down the road to his old farmhouse. - I'm waiting for the donuts to show up with it.

- donuts are about to show up. - We go into his house. His wife is there. They're quite elderly, and she is frying donuts in their house.

- Wow. - Just for like an afternoon snack. - Oh, why? - And I was like, actually, that's like worked out all right for me.

- Like I was so cold. - I come in from the cold, and it's just like that smell of like a freshly fried donut.

“It's like a console and bread all a little bit, you know?”

- A little bit. - Yeah, a lot. - Anyway, all's well that ends well. They call my parents, my parents have to borrow somebody else's car,

like a truck to come rescue me. And they're like, your daughter's safe here eating donuts, our parents showed up. They sent us home with like a half dozen fresh,

they got cake donuts. And I lived to tell the tale. - So, you know what I, for a minute, I thought the story was going to be like,

and I decided to stay in that family. - Oh my, it's not my fault. (laughing) - But I think, I mean, I'd tell you that story

because obviously it ties in to donuts, but there was a time in my childhood, and I think probably for other kids that grew up in rural areas,

- I think it was more common.

- It was more common. - I mean, back in the day. - Back in the day.

“But still it felt like a pretty extraordinary thing”

to wander in from the woods to discover. - Yeah. - Anyway, donuts, the topic of today's episode. - We're the donuts, good.

- They were great. - And were they, - Is there a question? - Here we go. - Where they,

I think I know the answer. - You know the answer. - They don't answer where they used to donuts. - They were cake donuts. - Yes.

- And to this day, I mean, I'm already going to hit my hand early here and say that I love a cake donut. I mean,

I like yeast on it too. - But for me, when you say what is your perfect donut, it's going to be a cake donut. - It's really a who are you at your core. - I think it is.

- Yeah. - Are you fluffy and in substantial, but sweet? - Are you chopped up? (laughing)

- Right. - Yeah, I think that's, is that what you're going to say? - No. But I like that.

- I mean, donuts are, people made donuts. You know, I think people made donuts at home prior to donut chains,

being ubiquitous, which they are now, but donuts are uniquely, well, I don't know if that's fair to say.

They are an American big. You know, we've talked about donuts. - The donuts, the round donut that we think of,

I think is. - It is, but it of course has, you know,

“it originates as all things do with something else,”

which is, you know,

Americans are not the first people to fry,

dough in hot fat. I mean, you know, the credit is given to the Dutch for, you know,

today the modern day donut that we think of as a yeasted, or, you know, cake donut fried in oil is a descend of the, something called Oli Bolin,

or oil balls, which were just balls of fried dough. So that's like, you know, I mean,

I think that has roots. Anywhere there was, I've said this before, I feel like, anywhere where there was hot oil,

and dough, like of course people try to fry it. - Yeah, why not? - Yeah. - Right.

But that donut that you're talking about, that was brought to America by immigrants, European immigrants. Like you said it was like, either donut whole,

or maybe it was a little bit bigger, but it did not have a hole in the middle. - A hole in the center. - It was a round of dough that had been fried, and maybe put,

you know, toss with sugar. The whole, I think, is an American invention.

- Okay. - And it's an interesting story,

“because doing research for this episode,”

came across a really great article in the Sony and magazine, which we'll put in the show notes, and in our sub-sac, subscribe to the sub-sac.

About how the whole came to the donut, and the legend isn't, but the legend is, there's a woman named Elizabeth Gregory, who was the mother of a ship captain,

and she was a fan of, you know, making fried dough. She used his spices from his travel. - Okay.

- That's where, you know, the nutmeg and cinnamon came to, and she, being worried that the middle of the dough would not cook.

- Oh, wow. - Which, of course, is what somebody will get to,

which is really a key thing in frying,

frying everything, but donuts, especially. - Yeah. - She put nuts, like hazelnuts and walnuts.

In the middle of the dough, she wrapped the dough around the nuts, and dropped them into the oil, so that the dough would fry around it. - With nuts in their shells?

- That's what I'm certain, question. - Well, I have no idea. (laughing) But that's where you get the name, don't you? - Don't not.

- Yeah. - Who knows? - Is that true who knows? I love that story, I love that story. It's always as good as me being kidnapped.

(laughing) - But that's where the, you know, the origin story of the whole, and then, of course, later, the whole was done mechanically.

And I love this story, too. The first machine that made donuts, you know, that dropped donuts into hot oil, was a phenomenon. And people lined up in Manhattan

to see this first machine in action at donut shops. And what's funny about that is that today, in Manhattan, I might get tell you just a week ago,

in the middle of Times Square, is an enormous crispy cream. - Oh, sure. - Where people line up outside the windows and inside, of course, too,

but like, to watch donuts being made in miniature. - Yes, yes. - So it's donuts, it's a great word for us. - It's a great word for us. - Yeah.

It's mesmerizing. And I think actually, a lot of crispy cream, location, to have that element of that boy or stick, oh yeah.

- Oh yeah. - They show the donuts on the, - Smart. - Like a fair about kind of thing, getting covered in glaze.

- Yeah, the glaze waterfall. But it's an entrancing thing, because donuts are very, they have a pool, right? - Yeah.

- They have a deep pool on people, sort of like what we're talking about with croissants in a previous episode, and it's the type of thing that, you know, a lot of people are not eating every day.

A lot of people are not making them at home, although I would argue that they're much, much easier to make at home than a croissant.

- And so there's a decadence and sort of extravagance to it,

that I think is very appealing, and it really draws people to,

“you know, to want to watch them being made.”

- You know, I mean, donuts have the nostalgia factor, but they also, I mean, they have like deep cultural roots. - Yeah. - I mean, the Jewish tradition we have talked about this before, this before, it's just going out.

- Yeah. - You know, also in the Christian tradition, like donuts are traditionally made, you know, for fat Tuesday, the idea of being like, you're using up your eggs, your butter,

you're sure you're frying oil, as this indulgent treat before, you know, the sort of lenton abstinence. - Yeah. - You're in the Midwest,

the whole day around that Ponchki Day, which is the donut day, people line up all over for Ponchki. - Also, I want to say that our test kitchen just developed a Ponchki recipe,

and somehow, I don't know how, I missed every single testing and retesting. - I did too, and I, but I actually think I'm going to make those pretty soon, because I just, they look so good.

I'm just struggling to, I need to find a day when I will have something to do with a dozen donuts. - Yeah, other than some of the donuts. - Right.

- Right.

“- And then the Ponchki are traditionally jelly filled,”

like the Sifkanio. - Yeah, like Sifkanio. - Yeah, jelly donut. Yeah, as you said, had many different names, but a lot of them are just the same thing,

and they have a lot of them have significance. - You know, in one interesting sort of piece of donut trivia, that even I were reading about in getting ready for this episode, was about donut lasties. And these were women who volunteered during World War One,

and two to fry donuts for soldiers. (upbeat music) - Hey, it's Francis Lamb, host of the splendid table podcast. Every week on our show, we celebrate the intersection of food and life.

In this month, we're releasing a new series called "Conerry Masters." And it highlights some of those iconic people in the food world. And we're revisiting conversations with people who have fundamentally changed how many of us cook and think about food.

People like Jacques Le Pan, Claudia Rodin, and Tony Bourdain, the name of a few. You can listen to the special series now. Just search for the splendid table and your podcast app. (upbeat music)

- To fry donuts for soldiers in France, to give them, you know, sustenance to, you know, and to motivate them, but also to give them something, you know, that tastes a little bit like home. - Right, right, yeah.

At that point, they were called, it's interesting. I mean, you like the etymology sort of cooled thing about, but they were calling those soldiers doughboys, but not because they were eating these doughnuts. - No, maybe maybe we went the other way around.

They're like, well, they're doughboys, so we're gonna go, why don't you feed a doughboy? - That's what they say. They say that that term doughboy, that term doughboy actually dates back to the Civil War.

And it was like, you know, I guess for sort of lame soldiers, it's such a name because like, I don't know, the buttons on their uniforms looked like balls of dough. Who knows, who knows if this is real, but the term doughboy preceded the serving of doughnuts,

two troops and friends, but, I mean, - Just in some ways that's a kind of cute term document. In other ways, I don't know if I want to be called a doughboy. You know, I'm like, I served this country by going to war and you're calling me a doughboy.

- You're calling me a doughboy? - I don't know if I love it. But I will take the doughnut. - Yeah, yeah, and don't last the other hand. I mean, that's kind of charming.

I'm surprised nobody has taken that name for like a chain yet.

- Oh, this could be our second act.

- There we go. - Third act. - I don't know. - I don't know. - So once the last time you made doughnuts at home,

if I may ask. - That's a good question. It's been a few years.

“And I think I've only made the doughnuts at home.”

And one thing that I love is that, I mean, you really can fry a lot of yeast of doughnuts. And so I don't think like frying the dough for like a loaf of white bread. It's gonna be a particularly delicious doughnut,

I've fried savory doughnuts out of facaccia, with like rosemary, and then they rolled them in salt and ros, and chopped rosemary. - It looks good. - It looks good.

- Yeah, look at me. - Wow. - What did I have to do? But I did that. - I mean, we messed around with frying pizza dough,

for the bokeh pizza. - That's basically a doughnut. - Which isn't Benier, which is a doughnut. - Exactly. - You know, by any other name?

- Yeah. - I think I've had more success with these to doughnuts at home. I don't know why. I kicked them so it's certainly faster.

- I know why, but we'll talk about that later. I have theories about why. - Okay, yeah. - How about you? - Oh, it's been a long time.

- Yeah. - I've talked about it a lot, because I, unlike most Americans, have no fear of frying at home. I'm always frying.

It's like, I just always have a kettle of oil on.

I don't know what's going to go in there. - 'Cause you never know when the lost child's going to show up. - Exactly. And I'll have to eat the three fries for them. I do think the frying at home is a pain point

And we're going to talk about that,

“because I want to get everyone over the hump.”

- Mm-hmm. - But I mean, I think there's like, there's another option. There's, you know, the big change, Chrissy Cream, Duncan, Tim Horton's maybe.

- Yeah. - If you can meet him in a certain part of the world. - Yeah. - But there are a lot of, I mean, I'm shuddering it the word artisanal.

But there are a lot of artisanal donut makers now. - Yeah.

- Which is like the third place, right?

Like if you're not making them at home, and you don't want to go to a chain, like there's been a lot of donut disruptors who have cropped up. And one of our very favorite is the guest

on today's episode, "Fanny Gerson." - Yeah, although "Fanny," she's great. - "Fanny," front of the brand. - And her donut shop is not necessarily, you know, a Mexican donut shop,

but it's got some, you know, I've got some canella in there and some other Mexican flavors. And she's like, "The big, puffy yeast risen donuts." Very delicious. Worth going to Brooklyn for.

- The one fan of us. - But like a lot of things that we see, you know, like people are putting innovative spins on it.

And I think "Fanny," is, you know,

very smart about interesting, like, new flavor combinations, or like, old flavor combinations applied to donuts in a new way. Just like really creative and interesting. And she's terrific, so we're going to talk to her about donuts.

- Yeah. - "Fanny Gerson," thank you so much for joining us here on Things Bakers. No. For anyone who doesn't know you,

you are the author of three cookbooks, and you also have three different establishments in New York City, right? You have a Toleta spot. You have a sort of casual Mexican restaurant,

and then you have fan fan donuts. Which is why we wanted to get you on the show here today. - Yes, well, thank you so much for having me.

What strikes me about fan fan donuts is that,

you know, you sort of apply all of your training, like your culinary institute degree, your years working at Finding a Restaurant, like your rigorous pastry background, to a form that is like,

“I think really familiar to a lot of American.”

So it's like something that resonates with so many people that people have a lot of nostalgia for, but you have tweaked it. So let's talk about that and sort of like your inspiration because these are not the donuts you're making.

It's not like your regular glazed or buttercrunch or jelly filled. Like they are definitely donuts to point out. - Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for that.

The kind words. Yeah. Like to me, the donut, I grew up in Mexico City. So of course I had donuts, you know, growing up, but they weren't, you know, it's not a quintessential treat,

the way that it is in the States. And so when I started making donuts, I came from sort of an immigrant point of view. And so I like to, you know, sort of I said, because I'm not trying to recreate something from my childhood

or, you know, people have very strong feelings and memories linked to something like donuts. And I want to kind of honor and respect that. And so I said, well, it's sort of my approach bringing everything that I have done so far in my career.

But also how I see the world. And I use the donut as a canvas to explore different cultures, different flavors that excite me that make up New York. But also I wanted to do it in an approachable way. So my intention is when people come to the shop,

they can right away see or feel that it's not your average, you know, or your typical flavors, not your average, your typical flavors, there's something special, but it's also approachable because it's still a donut, you know, that's right.

I don't want it to be precious. Yeah. We make everything from scratch in house, no coloring, no flavorings, including the sprinkles. Wow.

I mean, that is very, very unusual.

“I would say because I think most people might not know,”

like if you take your sort of run of the mill donut shop, you know, often they're making the dough itself from a mix or if they're making the dough, you know, from scratch, then like the cream filling is from a can. The jelly is from a bag, you know,

the glaze is perhaps pre-mix. Like it's, you know, I would say the exception to find a donut shop these days where every element is made from scratch. You make what like a dozen varieties on a weekday

and then like a couple dozen different varieties on the weekends. So we usually have at least like, I'm gonna say 16 flavors on a weekday.

that we always try to have like our classics,

what we call our classics, which are the flavors, what you think of classic flavors, but also what have been around since we opened. But I always want to make sure that we have, you know, like the classics, you know, we have a really,

you know, one of my favorites is our cinnamon sugar and we take whole Mexican cinnamon and grind it and, you know, to make it. And it has like this beautiful floral taste from that cinnamon and the classic glaze.

So we always like to be inventive,

“but for me it's always important to have something”

for the more sort of curious or adventures. And, you know, but it's things that regardless of what they're, like there's a, sometimes people come and apologize. Like I'm so sorry, it's just one of plain glazed.

I'm like, no, don't apologize. There's a reason they're classics. I don't like an ice cream parlour in that way. Exactly. It's an expect to find chocolate vanilla strawberry.

You know, and then they might have wild ones, but you kind of want to have those anchors for people that like to make a donut is this. I had read something about a, speaking of cinnamon that you use some sort of cinnamon

tea to flavor the dough. Is that, okay, tell us about that. Yeah.

So when I did my research for my first cookbook,

my sweet Mexico and I learned to make two rolls from this guy in the state of Tabasco in the market.

“And they were very unusual and they were,”

there was something different about them and I've had, I've had quite a bit of, quite a lot of them. And there was something about them, like a kind of, and I couldn't place it.

And he was kind enough to let me see how he made it. And he made a cinnamon tea. And that's what the, the liquid. And it adds some kind of seasoning to it. It doesn't, but it's kind of the way that when you,

when you put salt and pepper to a thick, you know, you don't necessarily, unless it's a lot, you don't necessarily, like, if it has just salt, you don't necessarily taste the salt, but it brings out all these other flavors.

So at Lanier Aquina, when we make the two rolls, I started making them like that. Okay. And so when I started a fan fan, I said, I'm gonna, when I was developing the recipe,

I tested with water, with milk, with a combination. And then one day I said, I wonder if the, if doing the cinnamon tea does anything to it. And then, and then I was like, I think it does,

but I thought, maybe is it, is it just me? Or, you know what I mean? I like you see, you know, sort of the story romantic. Yes. And, um, so then I did sort of blind taste things

with friends and family, my husband was a very willing. Yeah. Um, compared like the recipe once I had it, it was gonna be like water based as a liquid, but side by side, you know, literally.

And there was something that I did to it, like again, a kind of seasoning, but it also, I think some of the next, that I can, I'm not a chemist at all, but I feel like some of the natural oils

also do something to it. So we make like big batches of the whole,

“um, Mexican cinnamon tea, and that's what we use,”

but we also use fresh ground nutmeg that we grind ourselves.

I'm sure there are a million desserts

that you could kind of mine as potential donut flavors. So tell me about the process of like, creating a new donut flavor for the shop. Is it like you see a dessert and you think, like, oh, can I donut, donutify that?

Or how does that happen? I think my creative, I am just a naturally creative person. Like mine can't stop. Uh-huh.

And I suffer from insomnia. So I often, my ideas come at four in the morning. Sure. And it's just, it's not, it's actually rarely influenced by a dessert.

It's usually, it can be anything from, you know, went to the farmer's market and I saw this. Or there was an element in something savory that I tried, whether it was like a part of a garnish

or, you know, a crunchy element or, you know, a book that I'm reading or I love art or sometimes even music, you know, a lot of flavors are rooted in nostalgia for sure. But I also love to do a lot of collaborations.

And that, that I really, it's a lot of work. But it's a work that I create for myself. [laughter] So I do like, this would be the fourth year, I think,

And then I also, I love to have the little details.

“You know, but nothing, nothing with tweezers.”

No, we're making more, nothing, I guess. I don't want anyone else. Yeah, it's very nice. It's kind of a doughnut shop, right? It's still, it's still a doughnut.

It's still, we try to be consistent, but it's that the beauty's in the imperfection. You know, it's in that,

not exactly round, always.

Like, sometimes it's a little bit, you know, more oval shaped, sometimes it drips a little more, sometimes it drips a little less, but it's consistently delicious. And I have to say, no, you didn't ask me this,

but there's something really amazing about people going into a donut shop. Like, it's adults. It's like you get the kid in them, goes out.

It's just exciting to be there. And so to be able to bring joy, and I get to do that for a living. But fan fan donuts is an extraordinary place. You're an extraordinary baker.

Thank you so much. You've done so much for the City of New York with all of your businesses. And I just, um, I love the way that you, you know, you sort of honor the tradition of donut making.

You honor your own heritage, but you're just pushing forward and all these exciting and creative ways. So thank you for joining us. And thank you so much for having me.

This episode is sponsored by Bron Taylor. Bron Taylor is an independent family-owned company that builds tools for all bread breakers at every level to transform complex baking challenges into simple pleasures. Bron Taylor, I mean, they are so passionate about bread and baking.

When I talk to those folks, it really feels like I'm talking to someone at King Arthur 2. There's that synergy there because we only have one thing on our mind. It's baking, baking, baking.

I love their tools. They really truly are an asset for every home baker. And you and I both have quite a few of them in our own kitchens.

“You know, my favorite I think is the countertop proofer.”

I don't know, you're into the baking steel, but they have a lot of great tools.

Whether you're a first time baker,

or you're like, in deep, like us, there's something for you at Bron and Taylor.com. That's BROD, A-N-D-T-A-Y-L-O-R.com. This episode is brought to you by Supernatural. Supernatural makes sprinkles, food colors,

and flavors that are colored by plants, fully traceable, and totally free from anything artificial worth synthetic. Every time I go to the donut shop with my kids, invariably one of them chooses the sprinkle topped donut.

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full natural flavorings, like gummy bears, pick your next batch of donuts all the way with Supernatural. You can find their sprinkles, food colors, flavors, and more. I KingArthurBaking.com, or SupernaturalKitchen.com. It's time for our next segment, Ask the Bakers.

For Ask the Bakers, we want to hear from you. If you have a baking question for us, head to KingArthurBaking.com/podcast to record a voice message, and we may end up using it on the show. That's KingArthurBaking.com/podcast.

But you know sometimes, you just can't wait three months for us to answer your question. And those circumstances get some patience. You know, learn some patience, sit down, read a book. Wait.

I mean, maybe the answers on our website, but if not, you can also go to KingArthurBaking.com/bakers-hotline and a real live person will answer your question by a phone, email, chat.

Yep, it's kind of amazing.

It's called 855-371-2253-2253 as in bake. We're here for you. It's a beautiful thing. Now, let's hear our questions. What's the secret to getting perfectly light and fluffy,

used-raised donuts? Okay. Yeah, what is the secret? What is the secret?

“I mean, the thing is there are lots of secrets, right?”

Yeah, I mean, I think the, well, we were talking earlier, very briefly, and I said, we would revisit this idea. And the idea that I wanted to revisit is, you know, this question of, you know, really what we're getting down to is like, how to prevent a dense donut, right?

Whether it's a cake donut or a yeast-raised donut. So we'll start with yeast-raised since that was a question. I was asked about this. But I think with a yeast-raised donut, you've got to take a little bit more care with the dough.

So you want to prove it so that it's, you know, well-proof before it goes in the oil, right? So mining the temperature, mining the time of that, that proof or that second rise is going to go a long way towards having a light and fluffy donut.

Not rushing, isn't it?

But I think what's, you know, supposing you've done all that right.

Here's where it comes down to the frying. And this is true whether it's a cake donut or a yeast donut. You've got to get the temperature of your oil, right? And in order to get the temperature of your oil, right, you also need to be frying in enough oil, right?

Because it's really hard to maintain temperature if you're, like, have some rinky-dink, a little pot of oil. You need a good amount of oil. Yeah.

“You need to be monitoring the temperature of that oil with a, you know, deep frying thermometer.”

And then you can't crowd the pot. Because if you add, you know, a donut, whether it's cake donut or yeast donut to, oil that's not the right temperature, either too cold. It's going to soak up oil like a sponge, gross. Too hot.

It's going to burn on the outside and be raw on the inside, like, you know, which is the whole point of having a hole in there. So you're trying to avoid raw donut in the center. Right. And you know, and there are plenty of donuts that do not have holes. In fact, this is some of my favorites.

You're going to put the Bismarck. We've not talked about the Bismarck donut. We haven't. Requires that you really cook that thing all the way through.

So you're never going to know if it's cooked all the way through

unless your temperature is correct and you're following the recipe for the time. Because the time given in a recipe is conditional on the oil temperature being, Yeah. I'm on point. I mean, then I've done it both ways.

Like, I have messed up in both directions too. You know, so I, you know, I know what I speak. And I also think, you know, I said, when I started answering this question,

“like, you want to make sure you've proofed your dough, right?”

But I didn't really tell people, like, what to be looking for, right? So I think that is, if you have your, you know, your cut out. You still don't add their rising nicely. You go and you take your flowered finger tip and you press it into one of them. You know, stab it. It should like spring back and fill in that indentation slowly.

And then you know, like if it sticks in all the way, not great. If it pops back immediately, not great. So you want to kind of slowly fill in that indentation. And then you know that it's properly proofed just like bread. I mean, same, you know, sort of test for proof.

I think those tips will be helpful. Yeah. And you're really speaking to me. And Baker's like me, who are like, I don't want to use all this oil. I don't want to like waste all this oil.

Right. Because I don't want to, you know, I'm going to try it in a smaller pan. Yeah. But you're right. That's just a fool's errand.

And it is a very good point and a reminder to people that the minute you put anything in about a bubbling oil, the temperature goes down. Yeah, it goes down. So the more donors you put in there, the more it's going to go down. Yeah.

It's a game. It's a game with hot oil. You're playing with literal fire and good luck. Yeah. It's worth it.

It is worth it. It's totally worth it. Let's go to our next question. I keep wasting all that oil when I fry. Can I reuse it?

Speak of the devil. Yeah. That was me. I don't know if you recognized your voice. I was, but that was me.

I mean, this is the thing. This is the whole thing that gets people down. Yeah. They have oilings.

First of all, I just want to say in the grand scheme of things, a giant jug of oil, not expensive.

“You know, because you're using, you know, can I oil a vegetable oil?”

Not, you know, not expensive. You came to my business. Yes, it is a good point. You do not, do not fry your donuts and all the oil. No, you don't need all the oil.

That's also not going to taste like anything. No, I don't think so. Yeah. But still, it doesn't change the fact that, like, you then have this vet of, you know, like, if you're frying, I like to fry in a high, like, high-sided, deep pot, like a Dutch oven, something like that.

So, like, it's six cups of oil, eight cups of oil. So, okay, you can go in one direction and not the other, you know, where I'm going with this. Like, you can presumably fry your donuts, let the oil cool, strain it, put it back in, you know, back in the bottle or back in storage containers. You're going to strain it through cheesecloth.

Yeah, we're a fine mesh sieve. Oh, fine. Okay. Right. And then you're trying to get all the little burn bits, because otherwise, that's going to flavor it or all, and make it go into. Also, if you keep it up against this, it's going to burn immediately.

Yes. So, then you could go say from donuts to, you could probably get a couple batches of donuts. Mm-hmm. You know, it's that what you do? Yeah.

Or I'll do donuts, and then, front fries. I like to do fish, and then donuts. Because I just, I love that saviour element in my donut, seen that. Also, I think people are, sometimes I'm like, well, how many times I can use the oil?

If you smell your oil, and it smells ranted, it's going to taste gross.

Mm-hmm. So, give it a sniff. You'll know if it can be used. Also, a good rule of thumb for anything that smells ranted. Yeah.

Just, like, if it smells off, don't reuse it. But I find I can usually get a couple of rounds. And so, I strain my cool oil, store it in, like, court containers in my pantry, where it's, like, a cool dark place. And you can come back to it. And I would say, like, yes, you'd come back to it for donuts, but in reality, people aren't making, like, a batch of donuts every weekend.

I mean, I wish I was.

“But, um, so the other thing that is annoying for people is, like, what?”

Do you, like, okay, once the oil has run its course, it's like, then what do you do? Okay. Not down the drain. Um, you know, you can compost to use the oil in a lot of places, cool to use the oil, so that's great. But if you don't have a compost, and even if you do, so there's this product.

And I've already evangelized about this product. When we were talking about Sufgania last season, it's called Fry Away. Why would we be talking about Sufgania? Why weren't we talking? Holiday baby baby.

Okay. Yeah, yeah.

So, because we just love to talk about Fry Away, we just can't get enough.

But Fry Away, for anyone who didn't hear me talking about in that last episode, is it's, like, a powder that you sprinkle on your cooled oil. Like, I don't know, cool your oil. And you sprinkle it on. And it turns your oil into, like, a solid disk. It's so cool.

It's so cool. I mean, it's amazing. So, and then you cut that up and spread it on your toes. Right, you're like, didn't it served? Close the circle.

And then it's obviously much easier to discard, like, a solid disk. Like, you can go in your trash. You can go in your compost. It's not, like, the greasy volume that you'd have. But it's not that hard.

You know, people do hard things all the time. It's not that hard. Oil is not something to be feared. No. It's something to be embraced, because at the end of that oily rainbow is a freshly fried donut.

And I think, I don't, I can't believe I haven't set this already in this episode.

But when you get a donut, for me, it's a cake donut.

Fresh out of the oil. And it's, like, craggy on the outside and, like, a little crispy. Mm-hmm. And then you bite through and then you have that, like, nutmegy soft interior. I mean, like, what's the point of living if you're not doing that?

I don't make you reject your parents and... And move away from your parents and their parents. It's true. It's so worth it. And I just want to note that, you know, I think people have this idea

that this jug of oil that you, you know, if you strain it and, you know, put it in container

“and put it somewhere and that you have to use it again and mask.”

But you don't. You can use that oil to, like, fry some potato pancakes or fry some bets. I mean, do any frying, you need to have to parcel that out. Totally. Totally.

That's so true. So, just think about that. Yeah. Think about that. Just think about it.

When you're trying to go to sleep tonight, think about all that beautiful oil. I think we have one more question. I love donuts, but hate frying. Is it possible to make great baked donuts that rival fried? No.

We'll see people see. I mean, here we go again. People, this fear of frying. I mean, no. I mean, is it possible to make a baked donut?

Yes. A baked donut is a different thing, though. If you love donuts, what you love is a fried donut. I imagine. You don't love a baked donut.

Nobody's like, well, I'm really craving a baked donut. Like, a baked donut is what you have because you've given up. Good night. Good night. Good night.

Good luck. I think a baked donut is a different thing. It's a much different thing. It's cake. It's cake.

It's cake. It's like a little butt cake or something. And they can be very delicious. We have some baked donut mixes. And we have more hands.

And obviously, it's a lot less fuss. You know, to make a baked donut. Yeah. But it's not a donut. I don't know much less fuss.

Honestly, a cake donut is pretty fast to make. You don't know, unlike a yeast donut. There's no rise time. Yeah. The dough for a cake donut.

I don't know if people know this. But like, it's pretty quick.

“I mean, I think a lot of recipes you have to like give it a little chill.”

You can make them in a morning. Yeah. I mean, you know, what I would say for this person who's asking, I think there is another thing you can make, which is the donut muffin, which is not a donut and shape.

You know, it's like a vanilla muffin, not mega-cented vanilla muffin. And when it comes out of the oven, you dip it melted butter and then you roll it in a cinnamon sugar. It is donut-ish.

It's not a donut, but they are very good. And I would say they're even easier. You're rolling it. Wait, you said this right now. I mean, melted butter.

Yeah, melted butter. Yeah, it's really good. I mean, and that's nice too because you get a little bit. Like you get a little extra fat and you get a little crispiness from that. And then you can, you know, they're coated fully in cinnamon sugar.

Is it a donut?

“No, but I think it's a, I think it's a good second thing.”

And also particularly nice if you don't own a baked donut pan. Like maybe you don't want to have like, you know, you don't want to get a custom pan just for baked donuts. I think donut muffin is great. You put that recipe in the show and I would say.

I think the donut muffin is emulating donuts. Perhaps better than some other baked donuts too. Yeah. Because it's giving you that textual element on the outside. And that's what you're going to forego.

If you decide to bake your cake of donuts that have fried them.

You're never going to get that, you know, kind of crispy.

Textural contrast in a baked donut that you get in a fried. Right, right, right. So, you know, you make your choice. Yeah, you make your choice. And you have to live with them, you know.

Um, okay, well, in the interim. I'm going to share an opinion with you. Well, first. Don't come out. I had to do my interview.

I got to say hello. Okay, all right, so me up. Every episode. We like to talk to Jessica and see what wildly surprising and full through it opinions are in her head.

Although, I kind of say these are becoming less on less surprising. Like, we're now expecting them from you. Well, you know me so much. It's a segment we lovingly call it just opinions.

And Jessica is dying to give her donut just opinion, which is.

“Well, I think there is one thing that you should do.”

Whatever donut shop you go into. Like, they're which is that you should always order an old fashion. Oh, because I think an old fashion donut is like the barometer by which I measure a donut shop. Nice.

Like, I just feel like it's the simplest. But it tells you a lot about like, you know, how well are they frying things? Like, is the oil fresh? Like, is the temperature right?

Like, you know, I mean, I think it's stripped away. Right? Like, anything is going to taste pretty good if it's covered in sugary glaze or like those floor sweet bings or stuffed with jelly or like with paste your cream inside of it and dunked in chocolate.

Like, that sort of obscures. But if you just have an old fashion donut, nowhere to hide. So always will get one. But an old fashion donut is glazed though.

No, we're not always David.

Sometimes. But you're talking about a plain old fashion donut. So you just want to cracky. I do. On glaze.

Yep. Not rolled in sugar. Just a plain plain out. Yeah, just a plain out. Oh, you really are from New England. You've got that new England like do, you know.

People want to use it for the issue. 100. We don't know. We can't do. But I think it's worth doing.

Like, even if you think you're going to get other donuts. I will often get other donuts. But I will always get an old fashion. So do you go to a donut shop and you're like, no, wait, your family wants you to be like, hold on.

I got an order. Like, I see if it's doing the places worth it. No. No, I mean, we'll order all of them. We will always order. Okay.

I also think this is less of an opinion. But I'm just going to add it on here. That the best time to eat donuts is actually for dessert. Oh, God. No, no.

Don't keep me going. I do. I mean, I like sweet things in the morning, but they are cake. You know, these people who were like,

oh, I don't like a sugary breakfast. I'm like, can it all right, you know? You know what they eat in Europe? You know what they eat in Italy? Everywhere, it's so many places around the world.

Like a sugary breakfast. Yeah. And I'm one of them. You're one of them. I'm one of the countries in this world.

I'll just show you the breakfast. I support a donut first thing in the morning. Why not crash out immediately? You know? Why wait to the end of the day?

Wait, wait, wait. Yeah. I don't have to wake up and go right back to bed. All right. We did it.

Here we are. Baking donuts of home this week. No. I'm not going to baked donuts this week. I am going to.

What am I going to do? I'm going to. So we're working. Believe it or not. I mean, we've we're talking about our pizza book,

which just came out. Right. And yet we are working on another book. Mm-hmm. A baking book that will come out in the fall of 2027.

And. There's some room on this show. There's some room on this show. Yeah. And there has been lots of exciting development.

But one of the recipes that we started developing for that book. We decided actually was not going to go in the book. But it was such a good recipe that we were going to put it on the site right away. And it's for these cream cheese. Chocolate chip cookies.

“That's why I know what these people are thinking of.”

Like do does the world need another chocolate chip cookie. I think does the world need another cream cheese cookie. But these are really quite distinctive. They're very rich. They're just they're a really great chocolate chip cookie.

And if you're a person that likes chocolate chip cookies the way that I like them, which is that I always want to try.

Yeah. You know, a new one. This is one worth trying. Sarah Jample developed this recipe. Um, and spoiler.

But it is not the chocolate chip cookie that is going in our new book. That one is even more groundbreaking. Yeah. But this one. No one's truly.

Truly mind-blowing. But this in the intro, we give you a this little teaser of these cream cheese. Chocolate chip cookies that are really very good. So. It's not that wild to have cream cheese in a cookie.

“Yeah, I think that rogola has cream cheese in the dough and you can have chocolate rogola.”

So that's a I like that combination of tangy dairy and chocolate with chocolate. Uh, to ferment. Is cream cheese fermented? No. No, cultured cultured.

Yeah. It's a little bit fermented. Yeah. It's a little bit. So chocolate's fermented product.

I think there's a synergy there. Yeah. I like chocolate.

I've always like chocolate with yogurt.

Oh, interesting. Yeah. There's a fermented sisterhood thing. Yeah. Yeah.

That's a fermented sisterhood. Yeah. Anyway, so this is not, I mean, it sounds kind of weird. But actually, I think I can see how it would be Congress. Yeah, I won't be looking much hot.

Yeah. Nice. Uh, well, I'm also not making donuts. But I'm making something close because we've been talking. Jelly donut cake.

You just said you think. Jelly, you think donuts are good for dessert. I've. Wholeheartedly disagree with that. But speaking of Sarah Jean-Pelle, she did develop a cake based on a jelly donut.

Yeah. And it is really charming and really kind of like, uh, again, it's got that nutmeg in it. Which, like, that donut muffin we talked about earlier. Yeah.

That's kind of what gives it that.

It's gonna stick on. Yeah. Of a donut. Um, and it's got a ripple of jam through it. So give me that.

And crucially, it is baked in a sugar-dusted pan. Yeah. So you get, like, that sugary crust on the outside. And I, you didn't even mention the best part about that cake. What?

The jelly buttons. I don't do that. Oh, you know. That's too much work. But you, yeah.

“If you, if you want to do some piping, you can pipe a little jelly button at all.”

On every, like, all around. On every slice. On every slice. Yeah. So then it really looks like a jelly donut.

Yeah. Um, but I'm, I'm no fuss. I'm really. Yeah. Um, yeah.

There was a, there was a really good recipe. So hopefully people will try those. In addition. So the donuts on our side. I mean, yeah.

All the donuts on our side. Just, and get over your fear of frying. We're here for you. If you have questions. We also have a good YouTube video of clear staff.

It's a great idea. There's a sour cream donut. Yeah. Walk through on our site. And because she's clear, she went deep.

I think that video was, like, 40 minutes long. Yeah. It's been like a masterclass on donuts. So if we didn't, you know, get you all the way convinced.

Watch that on our YouTube channel. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Um, as ever, we appreciate everyone tuning in.

And listening to us here on Things Bakers. No.

“Remember to like and subscribe on Apple podcast, YouTube, Spotify.”

Amazon, music, or wherever you listen to podcasts. So you know, when the next episode in the next season of apps. Leave us a review. And specifically, leave us the name of your favorite, you know, small town donut shop. They're a big town donut shop.

I want to know. I'm just, I like to just keep a list. Yeah. Go to our substack. Actually, and leave a comment there.

Yeah. We will have a post. We have a new post up now all about donuts. So put that in the notes. Let's get a debate started.

Yeah. Let's, let's get a list going. That's what we need. Yeah. And folks, while you're doing all that.

Just remember.

Always, especially when you're frying.

Follow the recipe. Things Bakers know is hosted and executive produced by me, David, to market. And me, Jessica Battalana. Rossi Anastopoloa was our senior producer. Chatch and I is our producer, and Marcus Bagala is our engineer.

The original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala. And I want to treat it as to have Fanny Gerson talk donuts with us. Yeah. Fanny, of course, is the owner of fan fan donuts in New York City. She is also the author of many cookbooks.

And just a buddy of ours. And she has also started quite a few of our videos on our YouTube channel. Things Bakers know is a King Arthur Baking company podcast. This episode is brought to you by a new collaboration between King Arthur and supernatural supernatural.

Of course, the maker of America's brightest, diverse sprinkles. And we are putting those sprinkles in our new confetti cake mix and confetti sugar cookie mix. Let me tell you something. I made the cake and I made it to an ice cream cake. It was gorgeous.

It was celebratory. It was like my birthday, but it wasn't even my birthday. Find both mixes at Target. Target.com. And of course, at King ArthurBaking.com.