Dr. Jean Cirillo: and Lt. Tom Antonetti: After the Tour: How first responders process Trauma

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We're igniting a global movement to empower everyone to make a lasting difference by fostering deep awareness, unwavering acceptance and profound understanding of autism and mental health, tune in, be inspired and join us in transforming the world one story at a time. Hi, I'm Tony Manjor. Welcome to Why Not Me, Embracing Autism and Mental Health worldwide. First responders and veterans often witness more trauma in a single shift than most people

will face in a lifetime. Over time, that weight can compound, too many suffer in silence, afraid that asking for help could cost them their career or their identity. Today, we are joined by Dr. Jeanne Sorillo, a renowned, clinical and forensic psychologist and retired lieutenant, Tom Antonetti, to talk about PTP, talk to me post tour. A first of its kind mental health support program built by law enforcement for law enforcement

and now expanded to support veterans and all first responders.

This is a powerful conversation about trauma, trust, and why no one who serves should ever

have to carry it alone. So before we dive into our episode, we'll be back with an uninterrupted show right after it word from our sponsors. Thanks for joining us today. Thank you. I appreciate your invitation. Oh, it's my pleasure. If you would, give us a little information on what it is that you do. Okay, I'm a psychologist. I've been a practicing psychologist on Long Island for about 35 years.

I'm also an attorney that's been for about six years. So I love to do things like family therapy, custody issues, post traumatic stress disorder as with the post tour processing for police and military and anybody EMTs who has a stressful job that they don't get to process. The crisis is not over after they leave work. Sometimes it's just beginning when they go home and take

“it home with them. That's what we seek to prevent. Can you give us an insight to some of the scenarios?”

I mean, you just brought up some very interesting facts. I think a lot of people realize this, but they don't realize it to the extent of what you're seeing. Everyone thinks they are made out of stone, yet here they are having issues and bringing it home with them. Exactly. And you know, sometimes they act like they're made out of stone. They use dog humour in order to cope with a very dog situation. So it's not unusual for when they're picking up after a really nasty crime scene

for them to appear in sensitive to a lay person that doesn't understand that they're joking about it. To keep themselves sane and in the moment, they're able to do it. But there has to be a regulated crashing time, which is what post tour processing is about. To prevent them from taking it out on their wives, kids, or the bottle, or drugs, or any means that they think will provide short-term relief. That makes perfect sense. I see Tom just joined us. Hi, Tom. I good afternoon.

Thanks for joining us today. Oh, my pleasure. Thanks for having me. Oh, it's my pleasure. If you would, give our listeners a little information on what it is that you do. Well, I've retired. I've retired from the New York City Police Department. I retired in the rank of Lieutenant. And I spent the last 13 years of my time there in the press officers. As a spokesperson for the department prior to that, I worked various units on patrol in both Manhattan

and Brooklyn. In Manhattan, I worked in Midtown and Midtown South precinct and in Brooklyn

“in the East New York section in the 75th precinct. Okay. So how did you end up to Surillo connect?”

Oh, we connected through a mutual friend of mutual acquaintance who put us both in contact with each other, had conversation obviously prior to today. And from there, decided to go forward in speaking further on the topic and current matters, or excuse me, a relatable matters of

this topic and related topics, law enforcement, also first responder, generally speaking,

about the mental well-being of the first responders. Now this next question is for either one of

you. When they go through those traumatic situations, then afterwards they have to process everything they've been through. Everyone thinks it's just the victim or the victim's family that has to go through this trauma. They don't realize the first responders have to process as well and then depending upon the level of the trauma that was involved. We'll have everything to do in the way

“that the first responders process this. So how do you help them get through all this?”

I know with the EMT people what things see is that the first, they're often the first people to arrive, say at a horrible car accident where somebody's been to capitate it. And they have to get in there.

They have to, first of all, do triage as to who can be saved and who can't. And I know there

was somebody where there was a shooting in his house on Thanksgiving. Seven out of eight people died. He was the survivor. And the police, when they, it happened to be the police then, and then the EMT came. But the police would be in there. They'd say fatal fatal. Okay, this guy can be helped. And you're right away decide who can be helped. How are you going to help him in a split second? So yeah, they have to process that too. They can be very calm, collected, and cool,

because they know their jobs. So they rise to the level of their training. But then later on,

“after it's over, they can fall to the level of their emotions. And that's when they need the”

post-told processing. How do you help them get through that? I mean, that's very traumatic. It's one thing if it happens once in a while. But they're dealing with this pretty much on a daily basis. So how do you help them get through it? And how do you help them process it? It's available anonymously. They can come on the website. They can sign on with an email. They can sign on anonymously. They can text. They can show their face. They can speak without showing their face. They can give

their name or not give their name. It's totally up to them. The anonymity is guaranteed. And that's so important, especially for police, because if their scene is too traumatized, let's say they had to use their gun to take somebody down. Because that person was threatening an innocent civilian. Then they still have to process guilt, depression, fear, everything else. And they need to process it with their peers who understand what you go through after you just did something that

“you wouldn't normally do in the regular world. But that you have to do as an authority figure.”

And they can process it either way. And sometimes they don't want to admit to drinking, fighting with their wife or anything or husband or anything like that. Because they don't want to lose their gun. And the police will sometimes take away an officer's gun since a gun is the major tool or one of the major tools. If he or she doesn't have their gun, they can't work. They have to be behind the desk. And they don't want to do that. Right. Now Tom, how do you fit into

this whole scenario? You're retired now. So how are you incorporating yourself into helping these people

that need the help? Well, I can tell you twofold. First off, I still maintain a strong

network and connection with those that I've worked with both those that I've served, both that have served on to me since I was in a supervisor capacity. But also in a more splintering effect, I'm with the fraternal order police. And in my local area, I serve on the board and in the capacity of secretary. Now with that, it's not just clinically effective as the secretary for the fraternal order police. There's a great interaction. And in that interaction, there's an

exchange, an exchange of ideas, an exchange of how you're doing, how the family is. It's more personal. It's very interpersonal. We have our meetings when we have our events. You know, the fraternal order police obviously looks to help those within that community. First responders, all lines, all lines. So I've maintained that communication, that direct contact with active, retired members of law enforcement, just seeing how they're doing. And not on obviously to the

depth or to the extent that without just speaking on and dealing with. But on this personal, almost colloquial level, where there's that comfort of, I know, I understand we're part of the same quote unquote fraternity. So in speaking with you, you understand what I'm expressing to you. You understand the good, the bad, everything in between. So the opening up, the hearing. And now as we get older, as the years go by and their offspring become members or become first responders

excuse me, or family members friends, you hear their story. So now it becomes almost

because things are different today than they were when I had first started or from even 10,

12, 15 years ago. So still staying connected, obviously to both active and retired, in those two different capacities. Now have you seen and I'm really sure that you probably have

“situations where people fall through the cracks, then they retire. How do you find ways to help them?”

They're still part of the fraternal order. Yet even though that's true, they still feel very alone and by themselves. How do you get past that firewall that they will put up? So the mental health stays strong, and they don't go down that deep, dark hole that no one wants to see them in? And it's true, you make a good, unfortunate point, because there are some, and sometimes, and I don't mean to say anything or to speak anyway with just a broad brush. It's individual

specifics. So you're going to have individual remedies, you're going to have individual conditions, but if I can speak just by and large with this, sometimes some people will think, well, you know what, that's just Joe being Joe, and he'll get through it. He'll get by, or I'll tap him on the shoulder and say, hey, is everything okay? Not really invested in what that answer would be, but I felt

“I've done my part, again, rhetorically speaking. So what is done or what can be done, what I've seen”

done is just the follow-up, just not letting those that you know slip through the crack. Unfortunately, there will be a number that that is the case, that they do slip through their crack. You try to minimize that. I know that if I, and I had seen, and I obviously wouldn't name names or conditions, or circumstances, but I've seen those that were struggling, active members, and even retired, they haven't adjusted to the trauma that they encountered. In whatever capacity it came,

be it something they encountered while on the job while working, something they encountered in a personal life, but they're not right. They're not right. Now, I don't have that degree that I can speak to them with that level of professionalism. That's going to set them on the right way, but I can still speak to them in that conversational aspect or in that conversational tone to get them to where they need to be, to get them to the programs that exist,

or to the people to speak to further the conversation. It's not going to start or end with me, but it can with these other entities, these other individuals, these other programs that can best serve them. So to get them there, and to say, hey, did you follow up? Did you call that number I gave you? Did you email the person, the company, the entities that I provided to you,

to see if they are in fact doing so? And then always just to follow up with them, it irregular intervals,

to see, hey, how are you doing? I care for your well-being. Yeah, that's a great thing. You're doing for sure. When some of these people get to a point where they ultimately need more help, then what any of the first responders' precincts can do, what are some of the steps that you do is a psychologist to help them smooth things out and tamper everything down, so they can tolerate and live with all the emotions that they've been through. Sure, we have referral sources. Most of

them have kept their health insurance for New York City or Long Island or Upstate or whatever they have. So we can refer them to people that are psychologists, social workers, and sometimes psychiatrists, if medication seems to be needed, that take their insurance, that have worked with many people in their field, and they use to hearing about a lot of these problems, and especially a retired personal talk more. They're glad to because they don't have to worry that somebody's going to

know they have a mental health-directed, even if it's confidential between the therapist, the insurance company. It doesn't go to the employer, like it used to 20 years ago before hyper-roll, but the idea is that it'll be confidential. They don't have to worry about losing their gun. They do take a gun with them if they want to do security work or for their own protection, but normally that doesn't become an issue is when they're on act of duty policing. So yes, we have plenty of referrals to health

care professionals, and they always have that option, even without coming to us, they can go directly

but sometimes when we start to realize, hey, this guy needs a little bit more, and maybe the

“situation or the precinct was a lot more traumatic. Every day, you have to remember a police”

office needs more trauma and horror in one day on the job than most people see in a lifetime. So yes, we can refer them on to mental health resources and let them know that many of their colleagues use these resources also, and the therapist is somebody that is used to dealing with veterans,

Yeah, I can't disagree with you there. They're very high-stressed jobs, and they do see a lot

“a lot more than the average person sees. Now, most people, they go to work, punch in,”

they get out of work, they punch out. But with your job, it can be a 24-hour day job sometimes. You might be off the clock, but then you see something happens, you can't just walk away from it, and you jump in and try and help out. Then, it creates a new trauma, yet they go back to work,

like it never happened. How do you help them? Because there is some that are very good at masking,

their feelings and their emotions and what they're going through. Most people would never know that they were going through it because they hide it so well. How do you shift through that or can you shift through that, not knowing? So they don't go down that deep, dark hole that no one wants to see them go into. Well, what they come on the website, there's some knowledge that this

“isn't normal that they've been feeling badly. Certainly other police officers, other EMTs,”

know about the program, they can encourage it. But a lot of them are taught on the job, they have to mask their feelings. You know, I remember once a cop saying to me, "Oh, that lady was frantic. The cop was calm." And the abuser in this case was calm. He was the next cop. Okay, he got kicked out because he was doing things that were not acceptable and he wasn't going for help. But anyway, your taught to keep calm not to show how afraid or how angry or how depressed you are.

So it's hard to put the mask down and that's one of the aspects of the program you're taught. This is a place where you can let your head down, let you take your mask off. You know, how you shower after going through a dirty neighborhood or rummaging through garbage bins to find a piece of

“evidence, you shower. You're not ashamed to do that. That's what the post-12 process thing is.”

Yes, that makes perfect sense. They're taught to mask it. They're taught to stay calm. Let's say they do it so well. So well that most people around them do not know that they are going through some very serious issues. Every time they go out, every time they see something bad, they're holding it in, and each piece of that puzzle is forming a picture and that picture is one that's going in a very bad place. So how do you address this so it does not get out of control?

Well, I would say it's situations specific, what you're really teaching them is the ability to discriminate among different situations. When the ambulance pulls up and someone's badly hurt, you don't have time to process feelings. When you go home and you have some time to go on the computer, to go to post-processing or to even make a therapy appointment, that's the proper time, the therapist's office post-12 processing, which again can be anonymous. So if there's something

you wouldn't want to tell a therapist, you can say it here and if you're anonymous, you know it's not going to be changed because you can develop a certain paranoia after being in, especially the police field. You feel like everybody's looking out to catch you with something because you're

always catching people. But there's a proper time in place on the job. No, out of the job when

you're home and when you're safe in a safe environment, the therapist and post-12 processing are safe environments. No, Tom, I understand it is kind of a continuing education for first responders. Is there one for continuing education on how to avoid any circumstance that could put them in a bad place with their mental health? Well, insofar as certain degrees or programs that I had taken, I'm thinking more of internal programs to where they learn to process it and work with it

so that they don't have any issues moving forward. Yes, that's too full. Now, there are members of the service who are designated, who work in those designated units, who are there 24 hours a day to answer that call and they are especially trained for that. To take that call, then for the furthering, it could be just as Dr. Jean had mentioned to then bring it to that program to that level. But

at least to be the first responder for the first responders. So there are specially designated

members of the service who are set aside in those units to be there for help. And that's 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Now, for a supervisor for a coworker, just to bring it down to the most basic immediate level for a supervisor for a coworker, you're on the job training is and you're

directly speaking, are you okay? That manifests itself in a number of ways through humor through direct conversation, taking someone on the side as a supervisor. Yes, it was my responsibility to identify to see those signs, verbal and nonverbal cues of is there something manifesting here? Is there a problem, potential or an actuality, maybe something at home, maybe something from a heavy job that we left, something that is still bugging this individual, this officer. So you try to

identify that and you try to talk with them, get them to open up in a lot of times as you both mention. They're not willing to do that. There's a belief and I've seen this, I've seen this thankfully

erode over the years where again, when I had first joined the department, the belief was, you don't

have to talk to anyone, again, overriding. I'm speaking in generalities here. You don't have to talk to anyone where here will handle things when we close ranks, will handle things in and of ourselves. That has dissipated, that belief has eroded and I have seen that in my over two decades with a department and now having left it and still being connected in the ways in which I am, seeing that there is no blemish on your record or how you're viewed in seeking the help that you need. So

there's the direct those that are trained to answer and respond and those who are where all part of the same organization, you just know, don't turn a blind eye, don't say he or she will be okay.

“Ask the question, you do have a responsibility, you do have a responsibility and you have to act”

on that. I think that's great that you have that set up. Now, you're talking New York City,

one of the largest cities in the world. You have a very large police force. It's not like some of the smaller towns or smaller cities where everyone knows everyone, how do you maintain that level and that stability so that no one falls through the cracks? Each precinct is like a little society of sub-society in itself and they do know the people within the precinct. They look out for their brothers and their partners and their friends. So even though it's a large city and there's a lot

more crime and a lot more violent crime as in any large city, it's a small precinct or relatively small. All right, you go, you're going to say so. Just to compound that answer, yes, that's true and I was going to speak exactly to that. You don't look in the totality of the numbers. The amounts, the amount of members of the service and how are they served? You're right, within each command, each precinct, each unit. There is the oversight. There is the watching over of the personnel

to identify. So it's in its own respective silo that they see where an issue or problem, a question, may arise, may occur and deal with that. Then when it has to go up, the proverbial chain of command, it does. So at least they're able to be served, at least they're able to have that sort of guidance or penning in of those individuals that would need the services, whatever they may be, within their own respective precinct unit, designated command. Yeah, that's great. And the reason why I asked

that is because a lot of people look at New York City and they just think a large police force and they don't think about smaller precincts scattered around the city. This way, they can support

“each other. I think that's a very important thing for people to know. Yes, agreed. Now,”

enclosing, and I'll start with you, Dr. Serela. What do you think is important for the listeners to hear? Not only on what you're doing, but how it applies to everything you're trying

to do to help the first responders. Okay, first of all, first and foremost, you don't interfere

with them while they're doing their job. I mean, you shouldn't have to say that, but many people went if they loved one that was just her or when it's a family member that did something bad. And that's why they called the police. You used to see that a lot more now that there's education about spouse abuse, but you would see that in couples where the woman usually would call the police. He was threatening to bash my head in, he broke this in the house, he hit me,

she had a black eye, bloody nose, but she doesn't want to press charges. And now there are laws to support the police officer. If they suspect a felonies been committed, they have to arrest the person, even if the other person doesn't want them arrested. So you tell them, stay back, let the police do their job, but you also have to convince the police not to use excessive violence

“when it is not necessary. And that's what the post-tour processing is about. We don't want them”

to take all their trauma into one incident, usually a domestic incident where it's not needed.

understand how you are trying to self-police so that no one gets hurt and everyone keeps moving

“forward in a mental state that is healthy? I think the overarch with that is this, police officers,”

first responders, the whole gamut of first responders, all of them, all lines, they are people.

They are humans just like everyone else. The cashier, the supermarket, the sanitation worker, anyone, anyone in any walk of life. They're seen as first responders. They're seen as the heroes that you, God willing, they're seen as that, that who respond to emergency situations that others would run away from. They run towards the danger. But they're seen, I think, in conversations that

“I've had over the years and Dr. I'm sure you can endorse this statement as well. They're seen”

clinically. They're just seen as they are above the general feel that you are just like me. These are

family members. These are husbands, wives, sons, daughters. They are people that they deal with the same issues, health-wise, monetarily speaking, that everyone else does. And oftentimes, it's not so easy to see them as that. But in being the same as others in every walk of life, that also means that for mental anguish or stress, things that they deal with. It doesn't just come off them without any

lasting effects. That's not true. If anything, because of their line of work, these effects are

deeper and longer lasting. And the way to remedy these effects, this mass of stress that many of them deal with, they need this. As Dr. I'd mentioned, they need these outlets, these programs available to them for them to take advantage of because this is where they are not like the others, the cashier and the other individuals who I mentioned, because they are working on that level of dealing with tremendous emergency stress, pressure-packed situations. And when you're dealing with that,

“and that's what you know in your shift, shift in and shift out, then you need a way to have that”

remedy when it gets to the point that you can't take care of it yourself. Yeah, I think that's well-stated and well said. Now, can you tell people how they can find you and a little more information about your organization? Well, if you go under police officer post-to-op processing, it's PTPs for sure. PTP and then put in post-to-op processing, our entire website and the names of some of the key staff members will come up. Okay, perfect. Well, this has been great, great conversation,

great information. I really appreciate you taking the time to join us today. Same here, thanks for the invitation. Alright, thanks so much. Thank you. Oh, it's been my pleasure. Thanks again. Thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule to listen to our show today. We hope you'll enjoy it as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. If you know someone who has a story to share, tell them to contact us at WhyNotMe.world. One last thing, spread the word about WhyNotMe. Our conversations are

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