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“"Stiff-dome-warm-test computer-built focus-manee-chip-finance-tip-such-te-was-out."”
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Hi there, everybody, and welcome to 2020, The Actor Show.
I'm Deborah Roberts, and it's always.
I'm so happy that you are with us today. Typically, we peel back the layers of a 2020 report that we just reported on, but today, we're going to take a different tack. We're going to let you get to know somebody who has covered some of the biggest sports scandals, ones that have sent shock waves across the country.
ESPN investigated a reporter Paula Levine has stood on the front lines of so many of these stories for nearly two decades. She asks those tough questions, and of course, she challenges
“major athletic institutions in a fearless pursuit of accountability and justice, which makes”
her so great at what she does. Paula is giving us an insider look at how she helps shed light and bring so many of these stories to light.
Paula, so great to see you again.
"Begger it to see you." Thank you. "Yeah, yeah. You and I, as you said, we've worked on stories together before, and of course, you talked with us before on 2020 about the Brian Pattastory and your work on that story, and you
spend years on these stories. Now, you've been a part of ESPN's investigative unit for nearly 20 years, and I'm just sort of curious because I do work that is sort of investigated, but I'm not an investigative reporter per se. What drew you to that particular part of reporting?"
I think ever since I was in college, I just had this really strong sense of wanting
to pursue accountability, like holding truth to power, questioning, people in authority, you
know, speaking up for the voiceless, and that was what really drew me to journalism was just being in a position to be the person who can expose these things, and have the leverage to have the voice to bring them to light, and to effect change, whether it's someone being punished, whether it's them getting justice, whether it's some change in the rule or law.
“It's like that's what drives me to do this is to set up a silly writing wrongs, but really”
holding the people accountable who are making the decisions, and dispensing justice. Yeah, people and institutions you've talked about, holding them accountable, what do you mean specifically, what kind of fired up this little part of you when you talk about holding institutions responsible, particularly? You have these institutions that are supposed to be protecting people, that are supposed
to be investigating these things, like the assumption is that they are there to, you know, to do the right thing, right? And when they drop the ball, when they fail, when they make the situation worse, it's almost in a way even more harmful, because the view out there was that they were the ones who were supposed to protect you.
They were the ones who were supposed to make sure that everything works correctly, and that you were able to, you know, like in the sexual assault cases, you were able to be safe. I think that's where that institutional accountability is so important because they, you know, what's the point of having these protections is so forth, if no one's ever holding them to account and making sure that people aren't intentionally being harmed instead of being
held. And if they're not doing the jobs that we expect them to do, and oftentimes we're talking about elite institutions, elite sports organizations that you have had to come up against when you're doing your reporting, that's got to be pretty challenging too, though, or when, you know, in a little bit scary at times.
Oh my gosh, I try to tell people, you know, to think about investigative reporting and sports in a completely different light than anything else. And investing in sports figures is completely different because you don't have 90,000 people gathering every week in the stadium to cheer on a politician or to cheer on a government agency.
Or even for even to cheer on a particular actor. I mean, you have, you have people who are, you know, a so driven by college sports that it is part of their identity. It's part of their bio on their LinkedIn page, it's part of their own bituaries. You know, you don't see that with, with actors or government officials or politicians.
And so like that, that passion that people have for these institutions is unique. And when you are pointing out that these institutions have done bad things, that these athletes have done bad things.
You're dead to write on the facts, but man, people have a really hard time ha...
dealing with that because they're like, oh my god, this is, this isn't just you're attacking something. You're attacking a part of me because I identify so closely with this team or this athlete or this, you know, institution and, and the blowback that you get from that is intense. I mean, it's, it can be, it can be pretty ugly.
And the fan bases, the mob mentality is, is incredible.
Well, you know, when you think about sports, and it is such an American institution too, when you talk about kids who have grown up idolizing sports figures and sports stars, is there something that makes the sports world an industry, a little more susceptible to scandal?
“Is it just because people revere them and folks choose to look the other way?”
I think that's part of it. I think, you know, when you look at the individual athletes, you look at these people who have been put on a pedestal, they've been, you know, they're, for much of their, their lives, they've been, you know, feeling like they're invincible and they're entitled and, I think that, I think that really plays into it.
And the money, I mean, the money and it is, is incredible. And I mean, you could say that with other institutions too, but with, with sports, I think that's a, that's another really big, really big part of it. Yeah, you, you, we started off talking about some of the cases that you've investigated and one that so many of us remember, the Baylor University scandal, you even wrote a book
about it. And that was, was involving sexual violence among students, what tipped you off that there was something going on there? What, what kind of led you to this particular story? There was a particular incident, it was covered by other media in 2015 where there was a football
player for Baylor, who was convicted in, in a criminal court of sexual assault. And the interesting thing about that was that, you know, a few months prior, the University's investigation, which is a civil matter, which has a lower standard of a burden of proof, cleared this, this gentleman. And the question was, well, how is that possible that, that this university investigation
could have found nothing, but then the, then the, you know, a criminal case ends up in, in a conviction. And so that's where really prompted us to look closer at, you know, what was happening at Baylor? And we started coming across case after case after case of athletes who, some of them, you
know, had been convicted and had gone through the criminal justice system. But a lot of them had it.
A lot of these cases never made it that far.
It was just so sad that we found, I mean, so many of these women who, you know, you
“don't realize how much their life is derailed when something like this happens.”
And just the, the absolute, you know, the number of, and I'm sure, I'm sure that there are others out there that we, that we didn't find. But just the absolute number of women who have, you know, just been harmed by this. And so it was, it was really gratifying to be able to, to bring this to light. I think one of the biggest messages, don't ever assume somebody doesn't want to talk.
And I have talked to a lot of, you know, journalists about, especially talking to people talking to sexual assault survivors, or anyone who suffered some sort of a trauma. And the initial thought is, oh, you know, I, I don't want to, I don't want to disrupt that, you know, I want to be too aggressive and, and it's interesting that I will tell you, you know, nine times out of ten, the response I get from somebody after I've reached
out and after we've talked is, thank you so much.
You're, you're the first person who's ever really listened to me.
Wow. And even if they don't want their name out there, if they don't want, even if they, even if they just want to talk and don't want their story out there, they appreciate that someone cares, and, and not only that, but that someone cares and then wants to look into how they were treated.
Yeah. And, and I think that, like, I cannot, I cannot say more often how much I go into those interviews, seeing myself as not necessarily someone who's intruding, but someone who's giving them an opportunity and a voice.
“And I think if you're going to do this work, that's how you have to approach those interviews”
as I'm here to listen to you, I'm here to give you a voice. I'm here to, you know, hold to account the people who were supposed to help you. Baylor ended up hiring a law firm to investigate how the university handled sexual assault complaints. And the university says it made sweeping changes in response to the report, including removing
the university president and firing its football coach, and it changed the way it handles those complaints. Baylor would end up settling a federal lawsuit, one filed by 15 women, saying in the statement, we are deeply sorry for anyone connected with the Baylor community who has been harmed
By sexual violence.
While we can never erase the reprehensible acts of the past, we pray that this agreement
“will allow these 15 survivors to move forward in a supportive manner.”
Well, don't go anywhere because we have so much more to talk about and don't you go anywhere because we're going to take a quick break and when we come back, we're going to talk with Paul about some of the other big cases she's uncovered, including one of the university of Miami that just sort of opened a case that had been called for a very long time. So stay with us.
If you like your true crime, like you like your coffee, red handed is the podcast for you. It's dark, intense, and might just keep you up all night, I'm Hannah, I'm Serity, and every week on Red handed, we break down a different fascinating case. From the most recent U.S. trials, everyone is obsessing over, like Brendan Banfield, Karen Reed, and Ellen Greenberg, to the most unbelievable stories around the world, there's
nothing we love more than digging into every detail of the cases we cover, getting beyond
a basic analysis and cutting to the heart of the story. Red handed has over 400 episodes, ready to binge, right now. Plus, be sure to check out our weekly sister show, Shorthand, where we unpack everything, from the Black Death to Area 51. If you're looking for smart, detailed true crime with personality, check out Red handed wherever
you get your podcasts. I'm Harvey Gianne, and this is Killer Stories. Every Monday, I'm cutting the lights, and telling you, a bedtime story. Except, these stories are all real. We're talking brazen-hise, devastating cons, serial murders, and cases that defy, tidy
categories. So join me for new episodes of Killer Stories with Harvey Gianne, every Monday. Welcome back to 2020 The After Show. I'm sitting here with ESPN investigative reporter Paula Levine, who has covered so many just earthshattering stories in a way.
One of the most recent ones was a case that she worked on with us here at 2020. It was the murder trial of 22-year-old Brian Patta, the youngest child in a large Haitian family who was making his way to the top. He was a star in the sports world, and likely going to be an NFL draft pick.
“Paula, this story, I think, so many are still talking about, particularly because of how”
it wound up making its way to court and what happened in the court room. But let's talk about just the beginning when you really learned about this case, and you got involved, police contacted you all at ESPN, thought you could shine a light on this case. It had been cold.
Do you think the case sort of resonated, though, because this was sort of the story of an immigrant family or why do you think it did? I mean, I think it did resonate early on because it involved football player, and initially had a lot of attention, and then that just sort of faded from the headlines. And it wasn't until 2017 in large part because the family came forward and expressed their
displeasure with how the police were investigating and the police taking a very unusual move and reaching out to ESPN for us to maybe do a feature or something on it to maybe see if someone would come forward. Yeah. That's just really unbelievable to me because it's rare that they reach out to the media.
I think they pursued a number of leads. They had an initial suspect. And at the time, they just didn't pull it together, and one of the things that we wanted to know is, I mean, we just wanted to know why. We really wanted answers as to what they were doing and that made us a little bit curious.
So we did something that journalists are want to do, which is we made a public records request for all of the information, and that's when things started to get contentious.
“And I, you know, one of the things as a journalist, I believe in a wholeheartedly is transparency,”
especially when it comes to public records. The Rashad Jones, who was a former teammate of the victim, Brian Patta and, of course, he
ultimately went to trial and the case, you know, ended in a mistrial, you'll be on this
when I'm guessing for a little while longer as we see how this case all plays out. He had a possibility of a plea deal, which he chose not to take. In the day that they were trying to reschedule the trial, Judge offers him yet again, the opportunity for plea actually even says to him, give us your best offer, and the message back is, I have no offer.
I'm not interested. Wow. This is a guy who truly asserts his innocence. Do you ever feel in danger, do you have a feel sort of that your life could be in danger when you're looking into these stories?
I mean, I've had threats before, I've had, you know, especially when it, you know, sports fans are, as we said, you know, really rabbit, really passionate. I haven't, you know, I've been felt, seriously, I mean, I feel like there's a lot of people
Who are very angry at me and want to do things like docks me or, you know, th...
on social media and stuff like that, but it is something it's always in the back of my
mind. I'm very cautious, and I, you know, I do know that, you know, this is not making a lot of people happy and that, you know, there are people, I mean, unfortunately, you've seen it with other tragic stories with other news outlets and journalists where people, you know, go after them and some of them have been killed.
And so it is, it is always something that is in the back of my mind and, you know, it does make me take precautions.
“Yeah, and you have to be, but in the end, it must be a great feeling when you actually make”
a difference. Paul, you've made a big difference in so many lives and so many stories and I want to talk more about that, but first I got to take a break. When we come back, we're going to talk about the impact Paula is having on other investigative journalists and what lessons she's learned along the way.
So don't go anywhere, we'll be right back. Three decades ago, a young woman named Angie Dodge is found brutally murdered in her bedroom in Idaho Falls. It was the probably the worst case I've ever seen, it is the one that sticks with me. Please, zero in on a suspect and put a man behind bars.
I don't know what the hell you guys want, do you think we'd be waste in our time and waste in your time if we didn't think you're involved? But as the years passed, doubts emerge, about whether the real killer was ever caught. That's when Angie's own mother, embarks on a decades-long mission to uncover the truth. Twenty-three years, I've been trying to put this puzzle together and this center is missing.
I've always been told the truth will come out, you can't hide the truth.
Listen to the snare, the new series from ABC Audio, listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favorite podcast app and add free on Amazon Music. Welcome back to 2020 The After Show, I am having a great conversation with ESPN investigative reporter Paula Levine, who has made such a difference with her team at ESPN and Paula, you're one of the few women who are in this line of work.
I would say for me, sometimes I think being a woman brings a different touch to some of these stories, you've interviewed sexual assault victims. I would like to think that maybe there was some comfort in the fact that they're talking to a woman, give me a sense for you what you have learned that even along the way that kind of has helped you sort of paved the way, but also create more of an opportunity
for you. Well, there are like the idea that I make people feel comfortable and I learn from every one of the the interviews that I do. I think one of the big, one of the hard things to do in journalism with all the pressure
“for deadlines and competition is to be patient and so much of what you have to do with”
an investigative story is you have to play the long game and it's a matter of being persistent. I mean, the number of times where I've texted someone, I've emailed no response, you know, three months go by, I send a letter in the mail and someone finally responds. And I think so much of that is a lesson in diligence and persistence and also creativity in terms of how to find people, how to approach someone, how to develop a story, you know,
and also just keeping, you know, also maintaining your sources and really, you know, as
you touch shot, like making sure that they are always comfortable and talking to you and
that you're straightforward with them about what you're doing and what the plan is and how you're going to tell their story and, you know, maintaining those sources over time. And that's one of the, you know, and you learn, you know, and to be open to learn from every story you do and realize that every person and different, I mean, that's the other thing is never, never making an assumption about how someone is going to react or what
“someone is going to say and/or who someone is, I mean, it's important, you know, one of”
the other things is vetting everybody you talk to and because, you know, you want to make sure that you're protecting yourself as well, you know, you know, and so, so much of that, like I said, with every, every story, I've learned something different, I've, you know, I don't, I don't make assumptions about people as, or I try not to because people have surprised me time and time again.
Yeah, it's easy to do that, too, when we're in our line of work, when you're just trying to move along and move along, but being patient has a lot to do with it. I interview Mandy Matney here who you probably know of, she's an investigative journalist who got a lot of recognition covering the Murdoch stories down there in South Carolina and she was really intriguing to me as an investigative journalist and talking about what it
Is to be a woman in this field and one of the overarching themes she felt is ...
know, women always having to fight the patriarchy, she sort of felt like that's at the core
of so much of what she has looked into over the years and other stories and I'm curious whether that echoes within you for you as well.
“I think, you know, I haven't, I haven't experienced that.”
I think as much, I think what I would say is, to that, I would say, I think people sometimes underestimate you, you know, as a woman, I think they, they under, they think that maybe you're going to be more gallopful that you're going to be more, that you're going to be me because you're not going to challenge them. You're going to go with a little softer on the story, maybe?
Yes, yeah, it's a little softer in the story and so in some ways I almost appreciate
that because then they don't see it coming and, you know, that's, that's always, you
start out with, oh, you know, I just wanted to ask some questions about something and, you know, and then you're, then you're asking for records and you're, you know, really pushing them hard on things and I've had, I have had experiences along those lines where I think people are like, okay, she's not, you know, she's not really going to come after me or she's not going to ask the tough questions and, you know, to some degree, you know,
you have that element of, uh, element of surprise, I guess, but, you know, is it unfair that people think that way? Yeah, absolutely. And I like to think that once, you know, especially the people that I'm holding to account, I like to think that once, I'm done with them, they, they maybe think a little bit different
way. Yeah, I have, I've had that happen a few times too, just because I bring kind of, I guess maybe a little bit of a sunny approach to stories that I'm doing and then when I come in with the hard questions, sometimes folks are a little surprised. And that's, uh, maybe that's a secret weapon. Um, before I let you go, I'm curious. I'm sure there are a lot of young folks out there who are listening, maybe some budding journalists, any advice
you want to offer to a young, particularly women, uh, who might be thinking of going into the
“field and investigative reporting. Yeah, I think, I think it's so important to encourage young”
people to go into this field. I mean, it's tough. It's, I mean, as you know, whenever it's, it's a much different environment now than it was, you know, a couple decades ago, but I, I just, I encourage, you know, one of the things I say that's so important is to be curious, just, just to be curious. I mean, I think, and I, and that sounds so simple, but, sort of, in this area of all this like instantaneous social media, you know, I just,
looking, you know, all the stuff going back so fast, like you don't really have a second to, like, really think about what's in front of you and, and to, you know, to really also the other thing I, I see in, also with the curiosity is that, and I see this a lot with young people. I think there's a lot of fear of conflict. And, and I don't know if that's because the, there's a generation that grew up during the pandemic and we were all isolated, but I see so much in young
people, just this fear of confrontation. And a lot of, you know, I don't, I don't want to go there, so I'm not going to ask that tough question. And, and that's the thing that I tell people is, you know, you, you know, you have to ask the tough questions. I mean, you're not, you're not entitled to a life of ease, right? And I'm entitled to a life free of conflict. I mean, conflict is, is necessary. And I think for a lot of young journalists, especially those who want
to get into investigator reporting, like that's, that's a huge, that's a hurdle. And I, and I also, I do, some, even though things have changed, I do still think for women, that's even more difficult, because just because of all the assumptions and, and perhaps the expectations, they might have, you know, in society in general, that, you know, you're not going to be the one who's, who's creating conflict, you're supposed to be the one who's keeping the peace. And, and so,
“I, I think, encouraging them that, you know, you should expect some level of turbulence, right?”
Like, that is, that is, that is part of this job, that is part of, that is part of holding people accountable. That is part of seeing things that are being done wrong and calling people out on them. It is, it is uncomfortable, especially if it's someone, you know, who, you know, up till then, nobody thought anything bad of it, it's hard, and the, and the habit of the law and sports, right? It's hard to do those things, but, but you have to do them, and you have to be prepared for the
blowback. Yeah, I, that's such a good, good point. I love that, because there is a tendency, I think, not to want to rub full feathers, but that's what we do. And being curious and playing the long game, so much great stuff there, Paula Levine, it has been such a pleasure catching up with you. Next time, I hope we can do it in person. Absolutely. Oh, great. Well, good seeing you,
thank you so much as always, and to our listeners, thank you for joining us for this podcast
episode. You can watch us for our latest 2020 episodes on Friday nights on ABC, of course, and you can stream episodes like this one any time on Disney Plus and Hulu, and we should also note that ESP and is owned by Disney, our parent company here at ABC.
Thanks so much for being here, and see you next time.
I'm Scott Weinberger, investigative journalist and former deputy sheriff.
“I'm Anna Seaghan Nikolazzi, former New York City Homicide Prosecutor.”
And we're back together with a brand new podcast, Homicide 360.
It's a show that examines every angle. Every life. This is Homicide 360.
“Subscribe now on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.”
Dancing with the stars of the next product. All new Mondays, 877 Central on ABC, next day on Hulu.
